yee alone to iudge what ye lust Zelot Nay yee vse the verie popishe reasons whereby they woulde prooue when we charge them with the breache of this commaundement that they doe not committe Idolatrie for say they when the Scripture doeth condemne that sinne it is meant of such as worship fained Gods as the heathen men did or such as do worship the image it selfe and take it for to be God But I will deale with ye by Gods woord What doe yâ—e suppose of the children of Israel when they came to Aaron to haue him make them Gods to goe before them when Moses taried so long in the mouÌ„t did they commit this great sinne of Idolatry Ath. They did commit idolatrie and the booke saith they were destroyed a great number of them Zelot What was their intent to worship any besides the true God Ath. That it was for they desired Aaron for to make them Gods Zelot What thinke ye they tooke Aaron for to be a man or a God Ath. That is a question in deede howe could they thinke him to be a God Zelot Did they thinke that Aaron being but a man had power for to make a God Ath. If they thought so they were but fooles Zelot And if you thinke they thought so ye shall prooue no great wise man For which way can a man perswade any that a man can make a God Or could they become more brutishe then a calfe for to beleeue that the carâ—â—inges of golde turned into the similitude of a calfe were nowe become GOD No my friend it is very playne that they meant no more but an image of God and that which should represent God and put them in minde of him ye must not think they were so foolish although they were very foolish as the holy Ghost in one psal chargeth them that they turned their glory into the similitude of a calfe whiche eateth hay This then is plaine enough that they meant not for to worship the golden calfe it selfe but God in the Calfe Let vs see then did they meane for to worship any other by the calfe besides the true God Ath. It seemeth they did or els why should they say Gods for there is but one God Zelot Now ye are light vpon a very poore shift for we may as well say This is thy God O Israel or make vs a God to go before vs. For the Scripture it selfe in the Hebrew tongue although it teach that there is but one God yet speaketh of him in the plural number and saith Gods for excellencie or dignities sake as we see Princes here in the world when any of them speaketh he doth not say I but we not my person but our person For the phrase of the Scripture I might alleadge diuers places but you cannot vnderstande but in your owne tongueâ— neuerthelesse I will cite one it is in the Plaâ—â— Elohim Shophetim Hu God is the iudgeâ— but the words are Gods he is iudge Ath. Can you prooue that they meant to worship none but the true God Zelot It is easie to be proued both by the words of the people themselues when they say these be thy Gods O Israel which brought thee out of the lande of Egypt they meant not to change their GOD which brought them out from Pharao and ledde them through the red Sea neither did they thinke that the calfe which Aaron hadd made was he which deuided the Sea and drowned Pharao with his host but they tooke it for an image of that God and not of any feyned God and also by the woordes of Aaron when he sayth To morrowe shalbe a feast to Iehouah which name was neuer giuen to any but to the God of heauen at the least in those dayes the God of Israel had that name peculier vnto himselfe Then ye may see they worshipped not the Idole it selfe but God in the Idol they meant not to woorship any false God but the God of heauen which had deliuered them yet they did commit foule Idolatry and fell from God in so much that God was exceeding wrath with them Likewise in popery ye fell from God when ye bowed vnto images Ath. I hope not because I did not as they did they put a deuotion in it I meant no suche thinge but too bee obedient too a lawe Zelot TheÌ„ your meaning is that you kept your heart and conscience to God and went with your body but for fashion Ath. So long as I did keepe my conscience and heart to God I trust I did well enough Zelot Then you thinke God requireth not to be woorshipped but with your soule that you may serue the Diuell with your body Ye thinke also that God doth not require the outwarde confession of the mouth although it shoulde be with losse of life Ath. Yee doe not heare mee saye that wee may woorshippe the Diuell with our bodies Zelot You might heare your selfe say so but that ye say ye know not what for herein ye are ignoraunt that the woorshippe of images is the woorshippe of Diuels But I knowe there be many trimme wise heades which excuse the matter cleere themselues this way that they make no deuotion of the image or any other thing in the seruice of the Pope their conscience is free to GOD they serue and feare him what doth it huâ—e them although they come outwardely with their bodie vnto the other what should they indanger themselues in so small a matter But will ye heare me what I can say out of Gods word against you and such fellowes Ath. I will heare you gladly I am not so wilfull as not to heare Zelot There were amongest the Corinthians diuers Christians which were perswaded that it was a matter indifferent to goe to the Idole temple and there to sit at the feast with the infidels whiche they made in honour of the Idole and to â—ate of the meate which had beene â—lâ—â—â— in sacrifice vnto the Idole They excused the exact in this wise that they had knowledge they vnderstood well that the Idole was nor GOD they went not of anie deuotion at all as touching the worship and seruice which the heathen men did vse but for friendship and neighbourhood sake â—â—â— they woulde not refuse to eate with suche as were thâ—â—â— kinsfolkes or acquaintance Nowe although S. Paule doth mildlie 〈…〉 with them and aunsweareth their reasons in the â— and â— chapter yet in the 10. Chap. hec dealeth very roughly with them setting before them the terrible example of Gods wrath vppon Idolaters and sheweth plainly that they were partakers of the table of diuels and that they draÌ„k of the cup of diuels howsoeuer they thought they kept them selues and their conscieÌ„ces free and vnpolluted Euen so I conclude that these worldlings which vse this shift now little deuotion soeuer they haue yet they haue no lesse then the Corinthians had in the Idole feast therefore when S. Paule affirmeth that they committed idolatrie it must needes
against preaching of Gods woorde that it maketh men neuer the better and ye would haue them leaue talking and fall to doing I confesse there be a number which are counterfeite professors which liue not according to the Gospell and most commonly they be such as haue but a little smacke of the Gospel and yet thinke they know much because they want the meanes hauing the worde either seldome or loosely preached But I will confute your vanitie another waye in this point tell me are not these your sayinges where the woorde is sincerely preached if any seeke to frame their liues after the same when they doe eyther by woorde reprooue your euill wayes or by deede refuse your lewde maners These men are full of the Spirite these are precise fellowes these are holie Saintes these thinke them selues Gods fellowes these thinke them selues better then all other men Ath. We say so in deede there is good cause why Zelot Then I pray ye tell me howe these two thinges can hang together when ye saie there is no amendement of life and yet yee complaine that they be ouer full of the spirit ouer precise and such like May not euery man see that ye pronounce thinges directly contrarie the one to the other that there is no amendment and yet in effect ye say they amende ouer fast Ath. Wee doe not saye that any doe amende ouer fast Zelot When ye say they are ouer holy and what shoulde men be so curious and full of the spirite what is this but to say that they amende ouer fast Is not this to amend when men by due instruction out of Gods woorde come to repentaunce of their former vices and haue a care to keepe them selues from the spottes of the rotten fleshe and filthie worlde Do not you and such as you are after a sort blaspheme when yee reproche men with the spirite Is it a shame for a man nowe a dayes for to haue anye thing to doe with the spirite of God While a man doeth walke after the fleshe in the lustes of vncleannesse he is an honest man But so soone as hee is indued with any grace ye wonder at him as crowes do at an owle yee are readie to floute and mocke him out of his skinne And as if the spirite of GOD were a spirite of dishonour and shame yee mocke men with him Wee may wonder at the longe patience of GOD which hath thus many yeeres suffered himselfe to be dishonoured his spirite reuiled his woorde despised and hath not been reuenged but no doubt the longer hee hath â—aried the heauier will the stroke be Ath. Men are men what shoulde they make themselues more holy then they be Zelot If ye meane one way ye say right for it is a naughtie vice for men to seeme to be holy when they are not or to seeme to be more holy then they be but if yee meane another way as I thinke ye doe that because men are sinfull by nature why shoulde they seeke for to be better then doe ye speake verie wickedly For God calleth men to repentance to turne from their euill wayes God guideth his seruants at all times with his spirite therfore S. paule sayth Rom. 8. There Is no condemnation nowe to those whiche are in Christ Iesus which walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite And againe in the same chapter As many as are led by the spirite of God are the sonnes of God Hee sayth that if wee liue after the fleshe we shall dye in other places he doth shewe whiche are the workes of the spirite and whiche are the workes of the fleshe And you like blasphemous wretches allowe those whiche walke after the flesh and condemne those which are led by the spirite Ath. Are none indued with Gods Spirite but such as runne to heare preaching Zelot Whosoeuer hath the spirite of God can not but delight in the woorde of God whiche the same spirite hath vttered The Lorde saith hee which is of God heareth Gods worde The happie man is hee as wee haue in the 1. Psalme whiche hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde and which doeth meditate in the same day and night We haue in the psalme 112. Blessed is the man which feareth the Lorde hee hath great delight in his commaundements Moreouer the spirite of GOD doeth not guide men without the woorde And therefore it is saide Psalme 119. Thy woorde is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light vnto my pathes S Peter sayth I. Epist 1. Hee hath beegotten vs againe not of mortall but of immortall seede which he affirmeth to bee the worde of God that indureth for euer Likewise S. Iames saith cap. 1. of his owne good will begat hee vs by the woord of trueth Seeing therfore that the holy Ghost doth guide men by the worde it followeth that all those which set light by the woorde are led not with the spirite of God but with the spirite of the Diuell I might alleadge a number of testimonies of Scripture to prooue that such as you which make so small accompt of the sacred woorde of God as there be a number yea the greatest number whiche doe not set so muche by it as they doe by an olde shoe are despicers of God worse then brute beastes Ath. Cannot men be lead by Gods spirit and serue God vnlesse they knowe the Scriptures GOD forbidde that all those shoulde bee awry which are not learned is it not enough for plaine countrie men plow men taylours and suche other for to haue their ten commaundementes the Lordes prayer and the beliefe I thinke these may suffice vs what shoulde wee meddle further I knowe men whiche are no scripture men whiche serue GOD as well as the best of them all Will yee condemne such Zelot I sayde before that men can not be lead by Gods spirite and refuse to knowe the Scriptures Neyther can they truelie serue him vntill suche time as they knowe howe for to serue him for GOD teacheth howe he will be serued and hee teacheth onlie in his worde his will is that we shal learne to know him by his worde And therefore he hath appointed the Ministerie of the woorde to continue for euer in his Church that by it men may be built vp in Christe as yee may reade Ephe. 4. For this cause S. Paule exhorteth Tymothie to bee instant in teaching in season out of season he trauelled himselfe night and daie he maketh a verie ferâ—eâ—â— prayer to God continuallie for the Collossians that they might bee fulfilled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdome and spirituall vnderstanding Collos ver 9. For this cause hee exhorteth the Christians to bee children in malice but not to bee children in vnderstanding The holy Ghost doth sharpely reprooue the Hebrewes as wee may see in the latter end of the 5. chap. of that Epistle because they were yet children to be taught when for the time they shoulde haue been teachers Againe there is
The worde of God is certaine and sure because God cannot lie but howe shall I â—â—â—we which is their â—â— sense of it â— shall I beleeue euerie man which doth interprer the worde shall I not the better beleeue 〈…〉 if he say it is not my interpretation but S. Ierome he saith so S. Augustine hee sayth so I promise yée he shall haue the greater credite with me for they were other maner of men then hée Zelot I cannot but â—â—ruell to see howe grosse and dull your head is for to learne the trueth and how readily you can bring out such matters as this ye speake not of your owne head I woulde there were no greater learned men then you blinded in this matter But let mee shewe yee your grosse errour Yee say the word is certaine and sure but the interpretation thereof yee make doubtfull but what are we the better that the worde of God is sure and certaine vnlesse it be sure certaine vnto vs which cannot bee except the interpretation be so It is as good for you to say the word is doubtfull as for to say the sense is doubtfull Nowe when as yee hang the sense vppon men can ye denie but that still it is in doubt This must needes arise in the minde those Doctors said so but they might erre and therefore I am not certaine that this is the sense If this shall bee admitted in the Church what shall become of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or full certaintie of fayth which the woorde of GOD doeth require to be in vs it is grounded vpon the word of God for it cannot stande otherwise Moreouer faith is sure what God meaneth or else it is no faith therefore such as woulde hang mens saith vppon the authoritye of men where they must needes still be in doubt and when they are at the furthest they come but vnto this it is 〈…〉 like for to be true because such notable men speake it doe not know a right what faith is for that yee say he shall haue the more credite with you if he say It is not my saying but the saying of Augustine therein ye were euen as good say that your fayth is built vpon men and not vpon God For if ye doe beleeue because some great learned or Godlie man telleth yee the matter this is no true beleefe for wee must bee fully perswaded that God him selfe doeth tell vs or els wee be neuer the neere Ath. Howe shall I know when GOD speaketh â—â— which God speaketh you come and preach one way another commeth and hee doeth proache another way yee preache one contrary to another you say God speaketh hee saith God speaketh whiche shall wee beleeue Is not â—ee to â—eâ— best beléeued which can shew that those greate doctors are on his side Zelot See what a grounde you leaue vnto you know not when GOD speaketh not what God speaketh and therefore yee will haue some of the olde Doctors for to tell are yee sure hee telleth yee right if ye be it is because hee sheweth ye the worde of God why he telleth yee so the credite must bee giuen vnto the word and not to the man But you saie yee can not tell when one doeth alleadge the worde in the true meaning howe then can ye tell when one alleadgeth the doctor in the true meaning he which will falsifie the word of God in the Bible he will not sticke for to falsifie the meaning of the Doctor you may search the scriptures to see whether the testimonies alleadged be so as the men of Berea did when Paule preached Act. 17. 11. You cannot neither are yee commaunded for to searche the doctors And vnlesse yee see the manifest 〈…〉 of gods worde ye are not bounde for to beleeue but if it be plainlie shewed that God hath spoken then yee are bounde vnder the 〈…〉 of damnation for to giue credite vnto it Christe sayth My sheepe heare my voyce a straunger they will not heare Iohn 10. Also S. Iohn saith brethren beleeue not euerie spirite but trie the spirites whether they be of God 1. Iohn 4. he therefore which saith I cannot tell when the voyce of Christ is vttered it is all one as if he should say I am none of the sheepe of Christ because as he saith Euery one of his sheepe do knowe his voyce He that saith I know not which Preacher doth preach truth and which falshood he may euen as well say I am none of those to whome the holy Ghost speaketh and sayth Try the spirites whether they be of God it is a generall precept giuen vnto all Christians Ath. Ye shall neuer make mee beleeue that euerye man is for to iudge whether the Preacher speake true or false Zelot I know not what I shall be able for to make you beleeue but I am sure I can plainely shewe what yee ought to beleeue First marke this the worde came not from man neither can a man teache it ye vnlesse God reueale it by his spirite if it were the wisedome of the worlde or of the flesh then the spirit of the world which is in man and knoweth the secretes of man could teache it but because it is the mysterie of GOD none can make yee learne it but the holy Ghoste which searcheth euen the deepe things of God as S. Paul teacheth 1. Cor. 2. 10 S. Iohn in his first Epistle Chap. the seconde hauing told them that there were euen then many Antichrists he comforteth them with this You saith he haue receiued an annointing from the holy one know all things Like as therefore none of those can learne whoÌ„ God doth not inlighten with his spirite so on the coÌ„trary part all those which are taught within by the spirit doe feele when the doctrine which the same spirit hath taught is vttered he knoweth his owne and he sealeth it vp in their hearts and consciences which being instructed by him must needes consent thereto fully For this cause there is great difference betweene such as set all vpon the authorities of men and such as preach as S. Paul saith he did with the plaine euidence of the spirit and of power 1. Cor. 2. 4. he addeth the reason in the next verse that their faith should not coÌ„sist in the wisedome of men but in the power of God If faith may not hang vpon the wisdome of men and therefore the intising speech which mans wisedome teacheth is to be auoided in setting foorth the Gospell then can it not stand vpon the authorities of men Ath. Is it not lawfull in any respect for to alleadge them Zelot Yes no doubt there are circumstances which may make it sometime very needfull I speake only against this that they are alleaged when as we may alledge the same things out of the worde it selfe And when they are alleadged for men to builde their faith vpon or to make men thinke that there can be no certaintie in the interpretation of the worde