not admyt the scripture to be iudge but referre al thynges to theyr interpretation and spiritee Is not this an hygh blasphemie that a sinnefull man shoulde presume to sete hym selfe iudge ouer the word and wyl of god asthough he ought not to bee obedient vnto it excepte he were moued with his owne spiritee and mocion to reiecte or receiue it I harde ones a papiste doctour openly in a disputaciō saie that we whiche teache the gospell dooe teache the truthe and dyd alowe our teachynge veary well but that he coulde not nor durste subscribe vnto it exrepte our teachynge were adprobated and alowed by the bisshoppe of Rome Beholde my Symon what abhominacion is this that a mortall man shulde take vpon hym to adprobate alowe the diuine and heauenly veritee and set hym selfe iudge ouer god Therfore haue I put this conclusion in the forefront because that the Anababtistes doe for y ◠moste parte boast and aduaunce their spirite vnder such pretence deceiuyng the simple and rude people Symon Doeth not Paule teache this that the letter doeth kylle and the spirit viuifieth or doeth quieken ii Corin. iii And Christe doeth saie Ioan. xiiii The spirite shall teache you all truthe It is spoken by the lorde also Hieremy xxxi Euery man shall teache no more his neyghbour saiyng knowe thou the lorde but all shall knowe hym from the lowest to the hyghest Finally Iohn dooeth saie It is no neede that euery man dooe teache you but as the vnction teacheth you of all thinges whiche is true and is no lye What canst thou saye agaynst so manyfeste scriptures Ioiada To the woordes of Paule I aunsweare thus That Paul speaketh there of the lawe whyche kylleth vs as he dooeth declare more apertly in the .vii. chap. to the Romains And by the spirit he vnderstondeth faith and the consolacion or comforte of the gospell That it is so the texte of the whole chapter dooeth testifie Therefore this place helpeth nothyng your errour For whan we speake of the woorde of god we dooe not vnderstonde the bare and deade letter or voyde sonnde of it but the word well and truely vnderstonded and as it is in veary dede And as for that that Chryste dooeth promesse a spyrite vnto his dysciples teachynge them all thynges wee dooe admytte and beleue it But that spyrite can not bee contrarye to Chryste nor teacheth any other thyng than Chryst hath taught Therfore doeth he adde by and by teachyng you what so euer I haue saied vnto you What dooe these thynges perteyne to the spirite of the Anababtistes whiche teacheth contrary thynges to the spirite of Christe The prophecies of Ioel and Hieremye are vnderstonded of that same spirite that Christe dooeth bothe promesse and geue to his disciples as it is euidently sene in the seconde chapiter of the Actes and the eyght to the Hebrues Iohn in his epistell whan he speaketh of the vnctyon dooeth playnely expounde hym selfe saiynge I haue written vnto you that ye bee not deceyued or that ye dooe not suffer your selues to be brought in to errour whyche thyng will then come to passe if ye dooe stedfastely abyde in the doctrine of the spirite whiche ye haue harde at the begynnynge and swarue not at all from it The holy ghoste is the spirite of truthe which canne neither lye nor repugne against hym selfe beyng all waies constaunte vnchaungeable euery where lyke vnto hym selfe Now no man can denaye but that the same euerlastyng vnchaungeable and holy spirite hath inspyred the holy scriptures in to holy mens hertes and myndes Whereby it foloweth necessarily that the same spirite which speaketh agaynste the meanyng of the spirite that dooeth speake and expresse hym selfe in the diuine scriptures is not of god but rather an humaine mayne affection whyche if it bee styffe maie bee deseruyngly called a deauelysshe spyryte as Chryste dooeth proue agaynste the Iues. Iohn viii Or canst thou thynke in thy mynde that spirite to bee good whiche contemneth the cleare manyfeste pure and holy scriptures and when by them he is conuicted of errour doeth boste an other spirite whiche shoulde teache cleane cōtrary thinges Is not this to despise y ◠spirite of y ◠scriptures and to repugne against hym As though our spirit meaneth truely and the spirit of the scriptures most falsely Where haue the Anababtistes learned to set their spirit against y ◠scriptures yea and preferre hym to the holy worde of god Symon But who hath geuen you this libertee to iudge al thynges after the litterall sence or letter Ioiada That we dooe not as thou doest interprete the letter But we saie that the worde of god conteined in the scriptures of the Bible is a touche stone wherby spirites are tried For what spirite so euer doeth agree with the scriptures is of god the father of truthe And agayne what spirite so euer is contrary to the holy scriptures is of the dyuelle the father of lyes Seyng therfore that the spyrite of the Anababtistes wil not bee ruled by the holy scriptures but preferreth hym selfe to the woorde of god callynge by crafte the woorde of god a bare letterre yea and sette set him selfe iudge ouer it he cānot be of god For if he were of god he would come to light and speake that same thyng that the holy ghost doeth speake in al the holy scriptures But now sith y t he doeth not depende of the scriptures but will be at his own lybertie it is a token that it is a craft and subtiltie of the deuell whiche doeth alwayes scatter repugne against god Sy. Thou speakest these thynges mightily and stronglye but withoute the word of god And this is your familier custome to speake many thinges without scriptures As touching the spirite what he techeth I haue brought and alledged places and testimonies oute of the scriptures But that the spirit ought to be tried by scriptures or rather mācipated and bounde vnto them and not be at his own libertie it is thy parte for to proue Or peraduenture thou dost prefer the creature vnto the creatour Ioi What and yf I should say also My spirite hath taught me this thyng What couldest thou do or say vnto me Sym. But that is not to aunswere Ioi Nor ye do not answere sufficiently when ye bost your spirite without or agaynst the scriptures But in this thīg we do learne that whan it pleaseth you ye vse the scriptures agayne whan ye see to be expede ent ye boaste aud aduance your spirit Whan I affirme that the spirite must be tried by the scriptures I doe not mancipate nor subdue the creatour vnto y ◠creature but I will that the thynge whiche is vncertaine be tryed proued by y t which is certaine and that any spirit be tried by the holy spirit of god that is to saie by the scriptures whether he agreeth with hym self or not And if he be like euery where vnto him self to be receiued if not to be refused
ye come reÌ„ning by troppes neither warninges nor praiers nor rebukes can auaile among you And whan ye be come into y â— botomles pit of miserie or myschef ye put y e faulte in the ouerseers which do geue you warnyng before w t great fidelitie trothe Whose admonitions if ye would here or rather gyue eares to y e word of god preched vnto you setforth by theÌ„ ye might liue pesibly seiÌ„g therfore y t ye cast yourselues through your onefoli iÌ„to such perplexites ye haue no caus to iÌ„pute it to y â— faithfull sheapherdes whiche warned you befor to beware of such thiÌ„gs exhorting you to peace charite coÌ„cord but to your ouÌ„e selues Sy. I haue said y â— which I do thiÌ„ke yet y â— ther was neuer a more troblous world who so euer ar y e autors of it Io. wilt thou know what y e mattier is this thiÌ„g do stirre vp sedition and timulltie y â— ye do make euery rascal knaue minister of gods word and that without any descretion Besyde this thou shewest thiselfe vtterlie ignoraunte in histories and vnexperte of wordely thynges which doest scarsely knowe the actes of one age nor doeiste not coÌ„sider farther than is at hand If thou haddest redde the hollie gospelles actes of the Apostelles thou shouldest haue founde greuouser dissentions whiche did rise of the sermons of Christ and of his apostelles Finallie that histories are full of tumultes which dyd spryng in tymes paste of the false oppinions of Marcion Valentinus Arrius Nestorius Enriches Donatus Pelagius and other heretikes Ther were great tumultes and rebellions not onely of cities townes but also of whole realmes which wer so great y t ours owght not to be compared with them Did not bothe christ himselfe and his apostels gyue warnyng before that sectes should aryse Not because that for theÌ„ we should be amasyd or despair vtterly but because that wee should y e more dilygently watch against suche pestiferous sectes not onely to auoyde and shunne them but to resiste also Paule doeth apertely saye Corin. ii that sectes muste be that thei which ar faithful maye be knowen For euen as a sieue doeth not lise the corne but clensithe from chaffe and darnell so the wheate of faithfull men doeth not perishe by false doctrines but is tryed the duste and chaffe beeng sifted out Ihon saieth Thei weÌ„t out from vs but they ware not of vs for if thei had beÌ„ of vs they trulie shoulde had remayned w t vs. Therfor we haue nede of coÌ„staunce fortitude or strenght nor we ought not inâ—oÌ„tineÌ„tly to forsake the sterne but resist corageously y â— waues and stormes This coÌ„staÌ„cy perseueraunce in the teÌ„peste is a token that wee are not light but haue beleued stedfastly and wel Tentations are signes or proues of faith and of y e truth and do manifest shew how farre we haue beleued to y e true veritee Sy. Thy meaning is good Seinge therfore y t thou shewest thyselfe so frendly toward me that we haue begoÌ„e ones to commone of these thiÌ„ges I wil opeÌ„ my whol mid vnto y e coÌ„fering many and sondry thinges w t the touching Catababtisme or oppinioÌ„s of y â— Anababtistes if so be y â— thou hast time leasyr to heare me Ioiada I wil gladly obey the and folow thy mynd If thou hast any thiÌ„g bring it forth iÌ„ gods name Sy I do meruell if ther is no good thing in the doctrine and oppinions of the Anababtistes For vnto me it semeth much otherwyse y t is to say y â— ther be many thinges strongly grounded vpoÌ„ the scriptures Ioiada This is all the good that is in it that it causâ—the a greate meanye to reade the scriptures whiche elles wolde but lyttell studye in them As for that whiche they teache well they haue it commune w t vs all the resydue wyll I proue to bee false and foolyshe I am mynded to wryte hereafter agaynst theÌ„ wherfore I had noted agaynste their doctrine certayne conclusions which the greatest parte of them doe holde For agaynst suche vngodly and blasphemous reÌ„negates which doe reiecte the scriptures which doe affyrme that the deuelles and vngodly or vnfaithfull persones shall obtaine at length the euerlastynge life doe denaye the god head of Christe and commite opeÌ„ly with out all shame suche enorme and abhomynablee actes what neade is it to wrytte But now wyl set in order my conclusions The second treatie or dialoge 〈…〉 conclusions agaynste the doctryne of the Anababtistes put here affirmatyuely â–ª euen as Ioiada which â—â—prâ—senteth the faithfull christen man doeth holde them Ioiada That spirite which repugnith agaynst the meanyng of the spirite that speaketh in the holy scriptures is not from the father of truthe but from the father of lies the deuell None of the Saintes dyd euer by violence or force set forthe or thruste them selues in to the commune office of a preacher saue onely whan they ware sente by god elected and chosen by the apostells and churche CHriste and the apostels did neuer trouble y e churche for yerthly and temporal thinges but did chiefly study to nourysshe the peace and vnitee of al the churches It appereth therfore that thei whiche doe trouble diuide any churches being wel ordeined pacified in christ for such thynges are sedicious lyers and heretykes THei are to bee counted false prophetes which not without blasphemy contempte of the crosse of Christ doteache that Christ dyd take awaie onely origynall synne affirmyng that thei which doe fail againe after that thei be ones purified and clensed by the water of regeneracion shal not obteine daily remission of their synnes Thei be also false prophetes y â— doe attribute or adscrib iustification to our owne workes Suche are blasphemous agaiÌ„st the gospell which doe conteÌ„d and affirme that the soules do slepe after this lyfe not knowyng the nature of the soule nor the vertue of the resurreccion of Chrfst Rebabtization or babtizing agayne is not of god but a new secte deuiding the vnitie of the churche wherby the most pestiferous and hurtefull heresie of Nonatus Anpencius and Pelagius is renewed THe babtime of yong infantes is of god whiche hath ben did continue alwaies in the churche sens the tyme of y e Apostels vnto this tyme not lately brought in by y â— byshops THe office or example of any christen man coÌ„pelleth not that we should not haue all thynges in coÌ„mon and nothyng priuate or to our selues but doeth moue â—â—â—orage vs to care and see to our houshold to exercise liberalitee and mercie SVche are therfore â—poters â—â—â—ules of christes flocke whiche dâ— forsake their familye and houshold and beyng addâ—â—â—ed or geuen to sedicious fables do fâ—de them selfes with other mens laboures beynge in this thyng most like vnto monkes whiche dyd the same with their hypocrisye THe preachers of the gospell or ministers of the worde of god maye haue goodes of their
own that is to say howses and possessions and moreouer maye liue of the gospell THat the Anababtistes ar so enuious and do imagine al wayes and forge calumniacions and lyes who dooeth not see that it commeth of a hatered that they haue against the preachers of the gospell that they may crepe in and aduaunce theÌ„ selues eâ—tenuatyng therfore the faythfulnes and fidelitee of the sheapeheardes before the commons because they may the better bee beleued them selues CHristen men whiche are ryghtfully chosen may w t out any offeÌ„ce of god be are rule sith that power is the mynister of god THis power is not onely profitable but also necessarie for christen men therfore we must be obedient vnto it according to the doctrine of christ Peter and Paule THey which wyll not be obedient to the common magistrates and rulers or do resist against them doyng them at any tyme wrong and reproch fulnes be not christen men but Sanlonites THei that refuse to make laufull othes vnto the publike rulers do manyfestlye against the wyl of god beyng autours of sedicion and all dysobedience THe magistrate and rewler hath the sworde from God wherwith he may smite the malefactours and shed the blud of wicked dooers that both the malefactours may be punysshed and the good and righteous liue surely among the wicked THe libertie of a christen maÌ„ is not carnall they therefore that in the gospell do seke carnall thynges and fleshly are the fellowes of Symon Magus VVe doe not learne in y â— gospell that we shuld pay neither rentes nor tithes but that we ought to paie our debtes vnto whom so euer we owe any thyng THe administracioÌ„ of bodily thynges doeth perteâ—ue to y â— magistrates rulers whiche doe christen men lyke whan thei doe after this rule what so euerye will that men doe vnto you doe the same vnto other VVho so euer kepeth this law rule may be and remayne stil a christen man though he receiueth bothe rentes and tithes These articles haue I here put generally because that a great parte of y â— Anababtistes do hold against them â–ª for I know y â— it is impossible y t any man should reherse al their errours sith y t thei be iÌ„finit w tout number For it is no meruel y t thei do fall from one errour into an other seyng y t thei haue not y e same spirite of truthe Whiche thyng causeth y t so dyuerse contrary sectes do aryse among them that the one doeth condemne and excommunicate the other Symon If thou haddest rehersed these articles before them thou couldest not haue done it w tout a 〈…〉 and sharpe answere Ioiada I haue proued my Symon and that a greate whyle a go their poysoned and v 〈…〉 d hertâ—s and tounges bothe ready to all kynd of reuyling and opprobriousues and also more bytter than is any worme wode wher by any man maye coniecte and knowe of what spirite these phaÌ„tastical felowes doe speake But reade thou the thryde chapiter of the epystell of saincte Iames and thou shalte knowe that I saye true Symon I praie the that thou wylt reherse out of this chapiter the thinges y t moste chyefly doe for our pourpose Ioiada These are the wordes of the apostel Who is wyse and endued with knolage amonge you Let hym shewe by his good conuersacion his workes with a gentell wysdome If so be that ye haue bytter enuye and contencion in your hertes dooe not ye boaste of it nor be liers againste the truth For that wisdome is not connyng from aboue but yerthly beastelyke and deauelyshe For where tnuye and contentacion is ther is incoÌ„stancie and wicked workes But the wisedom whiche is from heauen or from aboue first is chaste after peasible meake tretable full of mercie and of good fruites withoute rache or vnaduised iudgement and simulacion Hitherto haue we rehersed the wordes of Iames. Ponder and iudge now whether the holy Apostle did not liuelye describe the fashions and doctrin of the Anababtistes For what do they els but ineth and rayle against other men and that of a despitefull enuye and bitternes oppressing theÌ„ w t preiudicial seÌ„tence and iudgemeÌ„t Sy. They promesse to make an aunswere before any manne and to geue a reasonable accoumpt of their doctrine and learnyng Moreouer that they wyll suffer them selues patiently to be conuicted of errour Ioiada Why dooe they promesse that whiche thei wil neuer perfourm Thou thy selfe haste knowen manye to saye the truthe they doe all of a pretudiciall sentence stiflie and with great pertinacy staÌ„d in their owne oppinions which saied that thei ware sufficieÌ„tly tawght dyd knoledge their erroure and offered them selues to recante yea and dyd forswere their errour And by and by as sone as they ware come to their complyces or felowes thei dyd renewe their heresee and against their othe and all honestye besyde dyd obstinatly defende it What should we doe with suche men Paule sayeth Shunne thou an heretyke after that thou hast warned hym oÌ„es or twyse Their doctrine therfore is a certaine pertenax contention and bitter wysdome suche as Saynt Iames doeth descrybe Symon In the meane season they wyll neuer graunt thy conclusions to be true Ioiada This is that I saye thei be more styfe more obstacle thaÌ„ doeth be come any christeÌ„ men to be But thou that haste lyued most famylyarly w t them knowest wel and perfitly their foundacions where vpon they grounde them selues Symon No Anababtyst better Ioiada I wolde therfore my Symon that thou shouldest now dispute agaynst my conclusions as the Anababtistes are wonte to doe but without stomake and conteÌ„cion I wyll endeuoure my selfe to corroborate and streingthen them with holy scripures and to proue that they be true Sym. Be it as thou saiest For I desire to be taughte Thou shalte haue me also obediente so that I may vnderstande and perceiue y t thy doctrine and teachyng is true ⧠The third treatie or dialoge How that the spirite which repugneth agaynst the spirite that speaketh in the scriptures is not from the father of truth but from the father of lyes the deuels Symon Fyrste and formost I dooe meruell what moueth the to put this conclusioÌ„ where as after myne oppynion and iudgmeÌ„t it is no nede therof Ioiada But it semeth vnto me to be verye necessarye For manie of the Anababtistes doe boaste I can not tel what spirite and father agaynste the manyfest scriptures For whan they perceiue them selues to bee ouer comed with holye scriptures and so holden in that they can by no waye escape by and by they crye oute sayeng that the spiritee teacheth them an other thyng that is to saye eyther to holde theyr peace or to speake forthe some tryflyng matter â–ª and that they bee neyther subiecte ne bound to the litterall sense or letter In the which thyng they dooe no lesse erre than the doctoures of the bysshope of Rome which in matters of fayth wyll
reiected as false deceitful But whan ye speake of the spirite ye doe vnderstond a bare creature For your spirit is not the holy ghost but a carnall affection Sy. Ye dooe yet without any scriptures of the Bible enhaunce and magnifie the letter Io. Not so but rather we here ground ourselues bothe vpon y e scriptures of god and vpon examples Sy. Shew therfore y t the truthe muste be tryed by the scriptures not rather w t a fre spirit without scriptures Io. By thy wordes doe I perceine what thinge doeth begile you that is y t ye do seuer these .ii. thinges beyng vnited inuisebly knitted together y t is to saie the spirite the scriptures which can nor ought to be separated asunder the one from y e other For whē we name y e scriptures we doe vnderstande y e expressed worde of y t spirit For as y e voice or sound of y e worde can in no wise be separated from y e lyuely breth of y e liuing creature So y e scriptures can not be diuided from y e spirit y t inspireth thē for y e scripture is y e expressed wil of god but now wil I bryng y e testimonies places w t thou requirest our lord Iesu Christ vnto whom y e heuēly father did geue witnes from heuen who hath receiued the holy ghost after no measure did not despise y e sciptures in so muche that he dyd corroborate all his saiynges by them onely and did commaund that the Iewes should trye both his woordes and factes by the scriptures Ihon. v. and Luke xvi He biddeth them to lyfte vp their eyes to Moyses the prophetes and not to apparaunte spirites He reprouyng also the Saduceis did shewe that this was the cause of their errour be cause that they were ignoraunt in scriptures or neglected them Mark .xii. The Apostles as we may vnderstand by the booke of the Actes did receiue abundātly in the beginyng the holy gost that by a sertaine visible tokē And yet not withstandyng did thei not therfore forsake or contēne y e scriptures nor boste their spirite against thē But rather did proue strengthen all their sermons with the worde of god preachyng nothyng els but the pure and playne scriptures These thynges are euydently proued by the epistels of Peter Iohn doeth plainely shewe and teache that the spirites owght to be tried whether thei bee of god or not .i. Io. iiii Wherby it is euydent enowgh that spirites owght to be tried and that thei be not so free as the Anahabtistes will haue them And how thei muste bee proued it is manifestly declared in y t place Paule whiche was rauisshed in to the thyrde heauen and dyd learne his gospel of Iesu Christ beyng hym selfe the chosen vessel of god full of the holy ghost and heauenly wisedome neuer the lesse before the kyng Agrippa he doeth testify that he dyd teache nothyng beside Moises and the prophetes Act. xxvi In the epistell to the Galathians y e first chapter he saieth thus if I or an angel of heauen shulde preach vnto you any other thīg then ye haue harde let it be anathema or acursed He also warnyng and teachyng Tymothe that be shoulde beware of false and erroneous doctrines dyd directe and sende hym to the redyng of scriptures But reade thou the iii. chapiter of the seconde epistell to Tymothe and it shall appere what we owght to iudge and thynke of the Anababtistes secte what of the spirite and of the scriptures Sy. That place is knowen well enowghe and I am almost persuaded But this vexed my mynde that Paule saieth that a spirituall man iudgeth all thynges but he is iudged of no body Ioiada I longe to knowe of the of what spirite Paule doeth speake there Symon But I haue leauer to heare it of the Ioiada Considre the woordes y t go before For he saieth thus We haue not receiued the spirit of the world but the spirit whiche is of god that we may know what thynges haue ben geuen vnto vs by Chryst Symon But to what purpose did Paul speke here of the holy ghost Ioiada I aske of the wheather y t same selfe spirite dyd not inspyre the scriptures Symon Truely that same selfe spirite Ioiada Seyng therfore that it is all one and bothe the same spirite that Paule speaketh of here and that whiche speaketh in the scriptures haue I not proued that Paule by a spirituall man did not vnderstond hym which boasteth I can not tell what spirite despisyng in the meane season the scriptures but suche a spirituall man as is and will be ruled and gouerned by the holy ghost that waie that he sheweth and expresseth hym selfe in the holy scriptures He therfore that striueth againste the holy scripture and inspiracyon of the holy ghost can not bee that spirituall man whome Paule doeth speke of Now if he be not spirituall he can not iudge but he muste be iudged The Anababtistes therfore can iudge nothyng but ought to bee iudged and tryed by the worde of god Hathe not here the spirite of the Anababtistes lost bothe his win ges But I do remembre other ii places whiche dooe vtterly stoppe the mouthes of the Catababtistes The first is in the .x. chapiter of the Actes touchyng Cornelius the centurion which although he was elected by god yet not withstandyng beyng so tawght by the angell did sende messangers to fetche Peter y t he migh heare by hym the preachīg of our sauiour Iesu christ If that the spirite should disanulle and abolisshe the scriptures it shulde folow y t this outwarde preachyng and such like thinges wer done in vaine The other is in the .xvi. chapiter concernyng the Thessaloniens whiche after that thei had harde the preachyng of Paule dyd daily seke and serche the scriptures to knowe wheather Paule dyd teache true or not Which thing thei wolde not haue done if the spirites shoulde not be tried by the scriptures wherefore what so euer the Anababtistes dooe teache concernyng this thynge is false and erroneous and not vnlike vnto the errour of Montanus Sym. What monstruous thyng is y t Ioiada This Montanus about .xiii. hundred yeres a go was a great heretike who did almost speake of the spirite as the Anababtistes dooe For thei do cal in again the old abolisshed errours as it shall appere hereafter Sym. Go forth I praie y e and let vs discusse the argumentes of the second conclusion For I can not beleue that none of the saynttes whiche thyng thou doest affirme stifly did thruste them selues into the office of common preachers excepte thei were called What other thyng is this but as the bisshop of Rome hath done in times paste to hyde the truthe frome the commons that none saue onely thei that are learned dare speake and talke of it Where as not withstandynge god did manifest him self to the littell ones and not to the wise Mathew xi Ioiada I will doe it
without scriptures Ioiada I wyll proue all that I haue saied by the worde of god A littell afore that Chryste did departe from his apostels he did sende them vnto the worlde to preache the gospel vnto all cretures but before y t thei shoulde take in honde this offyce they shulde tary a while in Nierusalem till they were endued with grace frome aboue For he dyd promise vnto them to sende the promised spirit and comfort our of the father vpon them And after that thei had ones receiued the holy ghost with it thei did receiue the knowlage of all sciences speches tongues Luc. xxiiii Act. ii whan Moises dyd draw backe and did bryng many excuses knowledgyng hym selfe to bee without vtterance vneloquent chyldisshe and vnmete for that offyce that god woulde haue sent hym to the lord did promise that he would be in his mouth as he dyd also promise to his apostelles suche mouth and wisedome that no man shoulde bee able to resyste agaynste it Mathew .x. Paule writynge to Tymothe and Titus concernyng the election of bysshoppes requireth such one as is apte to teache able to exhorte with wholsome doctrine whyche can reuycte and confounde them that resyste and withsaie the truthe .i. Timothe iii. Titus .i. There Paule doeth forbydde that none of them whyche were newly conuerted shoulde be admitted to the office of a preacher Netherto haue I brought places and testimonies out of the scriptures touchyng the learnyng that ought to be in an ouerseer or bysshop Now shall we heare what the scriptures doe testifie and witnesse concernyng the miracles of them that are sent We dooe therfore alleage here the wonders that Moyses did shewe in Egypte and other innnmerable signes and tokens that bee written in the Actes the manifeste imposicion of handes and that thei dyd receiue the holy ghost visebly Moreouer that thei whiche be sent ought to be laufully elected and chosen by a common assent we dooe dryng the first chapiter of the Attes vpon the election of Mathias the vii and .xiii. of the Actes vpon the election of Steuen Paule and Barnabas The .xiii. chap. also of the Actes doeth manifestly shewe that Paule and Barnabas when thei had created thorow all the churches by a generall election priestes or seniours laiyng their handes vpon them and had made theyr praiers with fastyng did committe them vnto the lorde in whome thei had beleued Now thou seest my Symon that in y ◠times of the Apostels euery man dyd not rasshely aduaunce nor sette for the hym selfe to preache For if it hadde ben so what shoulde haue neaded any election and imposicion of handes But election was made after praiers fastyng The same is also written in the epistell to Titus Sy. What if thou fyndest all such thynges among the Anababtistes Io. Not y ◠lesse iote of al y ◠aboue rehersed thīges ergo thei are not sēt by god but sēsualitee and ipmpudent boldenesse dyd impell moue them For what myracles doe thei except these are to be called miracles that they with their pernicious doctrine dooe brynge men out of their right and godly minde in to starke madnesse or that thei make the gammons and legges of bakon hangynge in the larders of the symple and poore people inuisible What learnynge should we loke for where rudenes and as thei do speake themselues simplicitee is taken for hyghe rudicion I dooe passe ouer here many of them whiche can scarcely reade yea and what wyll ye saie of them y ◠can reade no maner of thyng Are not these y ◠neophites by y ◠neophites I meane not onely them that are newly conuerted but such as doe lacke learnyng that Paule do reiecte But thei promote them that by all their lyues tyme did neuer reade the Bybles hauyng onely in readinesse certaine sentences not vnderstonded which beyng either plucked out of al partes of scripture or stolen or els borowed of their gydes leaders thei dooe wrethe wrast turne to contencion w t all maledicence reuilyng And so stondyng among the simple people haue alwais in their tonges endes y ◠father of heauen and the spirite What name my Symon maie conueniently be geuen vnto them I maie not call them apostels for thei are not sent by god Again thei do not preache wher nothīn hath ben yet preached of god but where y ◠people hath ben a long season with the great labour of the true and faithfull ministers taught the waie of truthe there doe thei breake in destroiyng peruertyng as a storme or tempest stirryng vp all thinges makyng the commons so perplexed and doubtfull that thei know neither ende nor begynnyng If any man shoulde call them prophetes and expositours of the scriptures it were none other thyng but to call a filthy swine an excellent cunning Musician For thei are ignorant in al maner of tongues in so muche that thei doe contemne them being content with y ◠vulgare tongue onely If thou callest thē doctours they know nothynge lesse than the right waie and trade of teachyng Besides that thei want the truthe whiche is chiefly required in a teacher But paraduenture thei will be called bishops and sheapherdes Why do y ◠lacke then al suche excellent giftes as Paule requireth in a teacher or bishop In so much that thei be vnlearned striuers contencious and rude neophites Briefly they haue nothyng that perteine to y ◠office of a teacher Wherby any man maie perceiue that the Anababtistes are suche as doe send them selues beyng perplexed sedicious debatefull ambitious heretykes Sy. Thei be bothe chosen and sent Ioi By whome Sy. By their church Moreouer one brother dooeth lai his hand vpō y ◠other geuing hym ful power autoritee Io. This sendyng election maketh me to remēbre y ◠bishop of Rome for after that the bisshop of Rome dyd ones get pourchasse vnto hym selfe thorowgh disobedience tirannie and pernicious crafte suche great power by and by dyd he promote to bisshoprykes euery mule keper bawdes and blody souldyours ▪ But who did teache them to seuer and diuide the churche beynge vnited and glued with faithe and charitee seynge that there is but one God one faythe one babtyme and one churche Who hathe sent the authours of this secte to make and congregate a new churche Truely amulacion enuy strife contencion auaryce ambicion and stiffe pertinacy I could wel and sufficiently proue all these thynges except I shoulde here wittyngly spare some people Their Churche therfore is not the Churche of God but a certayne secte and congregacion of styffenecked and disobedient people among whom there is no more iust election then is in the company of rebelles traytours whiche forsakyng their owne prince or gouernour doo retchely without aduisement chuse thys man or that man to be their Capitayne But let vs graunt that it is a Church yet not withstandyng they erre in election whiche is not vsed among them
not sorsakyng the mutuall felowship or congregacion of vs as some men ar wont to do And what other thyng do the Anabaptistes but for the weakenesse or as they doo say for the wyckednesse or vngodlynesse of some forsake the Churche â–ª and exhorte other to dooe the same But let vs come now to the .iiii. conclusion which shall shew playnly that the Anabaptistes are false prophetes enemyes of the Crosse of Christ Sy. Bryng it furthe that I may heare what it is Ioia They are false prophetes whosoeuer they be that doo affirme that Christ dyd only abolish take away originall syn They are false Prophetes that do deny grace forgyuenesse of synnes vnto them which after that the truthe is once knowen do fall agayne into sinne or error They are false Prophetes that do attribute saluacioÌ„ vnto our workes Syth that the Anabaptistes do teach these articles thei be not only enemies of the crosse of Christ but more ouer do denye Christ Sy. They do no suche thingê Ioi Though they do not with their mouthe denye Christ yet notwithstandyng thei do in very dede deny the vertue and strengthe of Christ of his death as Peter dothe saye .ii. Peter .ii. for swearynge the Lorde that bought them Is not all one thyng if a man should say Christ is not And there is no suche thynge wherefore Christ dyd come Christ dyd come to take away our synnes whiche thyng if he dyd not Christ is not Christ If he be dead onely for them that were in the old testament and not for vs he can not bee our sauiour and how is he then Christ If so be that our workes do saue vs is he not dead in vayne Doest thou not see how the enemyes of the Crosse are knowen The .vii. Treatye or Diasogue How that Christ dyd not onely suffer for originall syn Symon TAke hede that thou doest not rashly and without aduisemeÌ„t blame the Anabaptistes For ther hath ben alwayes some whiche dyd saye that Christ hathe suffered onely for them that were afore him that is to saye for the Fathers which dyd lyue vnder the olde Testament that he hath only pourged in vs Originall synne and that we ought to expiate or to make amendes satisfaction with our owne dedes and workes for the sinnes that we coÌ„mit after that we be ones purified Ioi If ye haue ben so taught hytherto and haue beleued so why was Peter Abelardus counted an heretike made to recant againe by saint Bernarde in the councell of Sens He dyd teache very like thynges Sy â–ª This dothe moue me but lytell Ioiada In this thinge are yee blame worthye that ye Anabaptistes do know neither new nor olde histories yet ye wyll be teachers What audacitie is this But howe â—ayne your opinion is and how muche it doth eneâ—uate and afâ—eablysh the vertue of the passion of Christ we wyll shew by the holy scriptures Iohn Baptist shewyng with his fynger that pure immaculate lambe Iesu Christ dyd saye This is the lambe of God which taketh awaye the synne of the worlde By these other wordes of the scripture it is manifestly proued that Christ is the full satisfaction for the synnes of all the worlde Or canst thou say that the fathers of the old TestameÌ„t are onely the worlde Sym. No but he sayeth syn not synnes Ioi Iohn dothe vse this worde synne as he dothe this diction world By the worlde he vnderstandeth whatsoeuer is worldly so by this word sinne he vnderstandeth all that can be named synne the gender beynge here put for the species For he sayeth which taketh away and not which hath taken away or shall take away that this word Tollit taketh away may signifye action or doyng not tyme. For what synnes soeuer are taken away they ar taken away by the sacrifice of Christ done in the Crosse Sym. Thou must bring cleare more strong testimonies for these can easely be confuted Ioia This aucthoritie is bothe playne strong inough Nor it can not be subuerted by any contradiction But that thou mayest see that we ar not without auctorities Reade the .v. to the Roma and thou shalt vnderstand and perceyue that the vertewe of the death of Christ is abolyshed by you And not as bi one maÌ„ saith saynt Paul which had sinned death dyd come so is the gyfte of GOD. For iudgement dyd come by one synne to condemnacion and the gyfte dyd come to iustify froÌ„ many synnes Do not these woordes O Symon prooue that Christ with hys death dyd not clense or pourge onely one synne but all maner of synnes But reade all the whole chapiter and then thou shalte vnderstande it better Paule speaketh of Christ in the ii chap. to the Collossen after this maner And you sayth he when yee were dead thoroughe youre synnes or in the prepucie or vncircumcisioÌ„ of yourflesh he hath quykened also with him forgyuyng vnto vs all our synnes Because that in him dothe inhabite all plenitude or perfection of God head corporally and ye are made perfect in him Which thyng truly coulde not be if he had not washed vs clene froÌ„ all our synnes But the contrary is euidently knowen by the .x. chap to the Hebrues He sayth saynt Paule one oblacion beynge offered for synnes sitteth euerlastiÌ„gly on the right hande of God the Father For with one oblacioÌ„ he hath made perfecte for euer them that are sanctified .i. Ioh. i. The blood of Christ dothe clense vs from all our synnes .i. Io. ii If any man dothe synne we haue an aduocate before the father that righteous Lorde Iesu Christ And he is the satisfaction for oure synnes and not onely for oure synnes but for the synnes of all the worlde If Christ dyd take away onely original synne the testimonye and aucthoritie of Iesu is voyde And agayne if Christ dyed not for vs but for them only that were after hym what belongeth vnto vs the death of Christ Or why should we confesse it if it perteyneth nothyng vnto vs Doest thou not see yet who are false Prophetes enemyes of the crosse of Christ and subuersers of the Christen fayth Sy. I doo see it well inough and I am wel content touchynge this Artitle But as for that that they dooe denye or wyll not graunt repentaunce grace vnto them that be fallen agayn thei proue it strongly by the .vi. chap. to the Hebrues and by the ii Peter ii And verely as farre as I can perceyue they speake well inough in it That is to say that we be no more in the flesh and that me ought to synne no more after this which thyng I wold thynke to be good if we myght â—olyue For they do so vâ—ry stuâ—â—ously with great diligenâ—â— The .viii. Treatye or Dialogue How that a synner may come to grace as often as he reuenâ—ethe and that no man is without synne Ioiada O Lorde God that the simple do so miserably suffer themselues to be blynded If
Menander SymoÌ„ should come agayne I thynke they coulde fynde adherentes and disciples syth that the secte of Nouatus of the Catharians is so regarded beleued among many Sy. What do these thingê meane â–ª Ioia That the seyd heretykes dyd teache about .xii. C. yeâ—râ—s ago the same thynges that thou hast nowe brought of the Anababtistes For thei dyd deny all grace and forgeuenes vnto them that were fallen agayne Thei dyd arrogate and take vpon them purenesse or clenlynesse of lyfe They dyd congregate assemble a particuler Churche auoidyng and shuÌ„nyng al coÌ„munion or felowship of synners In the meane season they dyd passe al mortal men in presumptuoâ—snesse and arrogancy in enuy hate â—e â—â— contencion in couetousnesse intemperancy of lyfe But rede thou Ciprian vpon the matter in the .iiii. Epiâ—â—le to Antonianus The Anabaptistes if thou lookest better vpon the 〈…〉 are in all thinges lyke vnto the Catharians and doo teache all one thyng with them Sâ—â—â—â—ctâ— them therefore â–ª For he that agreith with manifest hâ—â—eâ—â—â—â—s is lyuyng condicions conuersacion teachyng can not teche the truthe nor be a rightful maÌ„ Or howe canst thou alow them whom all godly persones dyd alwayes abhorre Sy. I care not for the Catharians nor I know not what the CathariaÌ„s be That I do in this thyng agree with the Anabaptistê the scriptures compell me to do it therfore I do not beleue them but the scriptures Ioia This is that I haue sayde and yet do I repete it that nothing boldeth them so muche in their error as dothe ignoraunce If they had read and tasted the olde histories thei wolde be more modest and sobre and not so presumpâ—â—ous Is not this a miserable and perilous thyng that men beyng so rude and ignoraune in all thynges do take vpon them to be teachers Wherby it cometh to passe that thei corrupt confound subuert al thynges not hauynge the righte vnderstaÌ„dyng of scriptures For that which Paule in the â–ª vi chap. to the Hebrues and Peter in the ii chap. of his second Epist doo write dothe not strengthe nor proue the oppinion of the Anababtistes but that there is no remission for them whiche doo swarue frome the faythe and thorow misbeleue or infidelitie do dispayre of the mercy of god For they doo synne agaynst the holy gost whiche syn is not forgyuen here nor in the worlde to come as Christe teacheth Mat. xii .i. Iohn .v. But my Symon discusse thou and wey the wordes of bothe the Apostles and consider to what purpose they were spoken Truly for this purpose to proue that it is impossible for hym that hath beleued ones perfectly to falle away from his fayth Peter with the other disciples being asked of christ whether thei woulde forsake hym also dyd answere Lord to whom should we go thou hast the wordes of euerlastyng lyfe And we dooe know and beleue that thou art the sonne of the lyuyng God If so be that any man dothe fall cleane from fayth he doth shew manifestly that he had neuer a true fayth They went from vs sayth Iohn but they were not of vs for if they had ben of vs truly they shoulde had remayned with vs. He therfore that swarueth from the knoweÌ„ faith hathe no saluacion But why For Christ is the onely saluacioÌ„ frome whome he doothe falsely swarue and therfore can fynde no other saluacion Thou doest vnderstande I thynke that the falle whereof Paull speaketh is not the fall that doth chauÌ„ce daily by thinfirmitie weakenesse of the flesh in them that are godly but extreme desperacion thorough misbeleue infidelitie wherby a maÌ„ swarueth from God Reade the .vii. viii to the Heb. and thou shalte see that daily remission of synnes is not denyed vnto them that ar fallen agayne For he sayeth also in the .v. cha that Christ is a bisshoppe that can haue compassion of our infirmities vnto whom we must flye hauyng lycence libertie to do it .x. chap. to the Hebrues Sy. In the .xii. chap. Paule teacheth that Esau coulde fynde no place of repentaunce thoughe he dyd seke it with teares Ioia Paule doth not speake in this place of repentaunce and forgyuenesse of synnes but of election and recouering of his first birth which he had lost ones thorough glotony and intemperance and could neuer recouer it agayne though he had assaied proued it with wepynges and teares for Iacob had bought the right of the first borne and had preuented him Wherfore he speaketh nothyng heare of the inwarde remission of sinnes And often tymes thys woorde penaunce is taken in an other significacioÌ„ But the CathariaÌ„s dyd vse the same argumentes in so muche that some weake persons among them that wer godly dyd abhorre suspecte the Epistle to the Hebrues as some do now a dayes the Epi. of saynt Iames. But now I come to the auctoritie of Peter who speaketh after this maner It had ben better for them â–ª not to haue knowen the waye of righteousnesse then after that they haue knowen to tourne from that that was taught them by the holye precepte But that chaunceth vnto theim that is wont to be spoken in a true prouerbe A dogge goynge to his vomittyng or to that which he had vomitted agayne And a washed sow beyng retourned to the myre wallowyng or walteryng If thou considerest well truly these wordes thou shalt fynde that they be spoken of infidelitie and vnfaythfulnesse From the which after that thei wer ones called through faith they dyd fall agayn from God into the fyrst vnfaythfulnesse infidelitie We doo set therfore that infidelitie is condempned euery where Sy. What sayest thou of this that thei do affirm that we liue no more in the flesh Io. The flesh dothe stycke vnto vs to the verye graue For the flesh doth contrary the spirite and agayne the spirite doth repugne agaynste the flesh in so moche that we doo that whiche we woulde not do the Rom. the vii It is therfore great boldenesse to presume boast of that whiche the Apostles dyd neuer presume â—â— boast of For Paule did complain of his flesh which hath more spirite dyd labour more to tame his flesh then all the Anababtistes And yet they dare say that they be not in the flesh For this cause peraduenture because that they be none other thyng but flesh that is to say all carnal drouned in their sensualitie affections Which thyng is manifestly knowen by their lyfe But paul did coÌ„clude all thys whole matter more perfectly more briefly also saiyng I do with my mynde obey and serue vnto the lawe of god but with my flesh vnto the law of synne He doth more at large expounde these thynges in the .viii. Rom. and v. Galat. Where he dothe shewe in fewe wordes â–ª that they which do not feare God nor rare for heauenly thynges but are all earthly do lyue after the flesh And that he walketh in the spirite or after the spirite