Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	agree_v	church_n	holy_a	2,296	5	4.8759	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41335	Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652.	1692 (1692)	Wing F969; ESTC R31512	41,078	37

them to Ordain without Imposition of Hands One of them undertook it a Person whose Gifts and Graces I honour For Scriptures he gave me none Whether his Reasons be Cogent the sequel shall declare That Diminishing from the Word is as great a Sin as Addition to the Word none can deny the Text is expresly against them both Deut. 12.32 and ch 4.2 both offer an Affront to the Wisdom of the ●aw-giver Addition charges him with Defect Diminishing charges him with superfluity appointing things needless and vain Grant it that Imposition of Hands in Ordination be but a Ceremony yet it is God's Ceremony appointed first by his express Command Numb 8.10 14. Not to conferr Gifts as some would have it but to Separate to Office If you then could deny Communion with the Church of England because of their Addition of Humane Doctrinal Ceremonies to the Worship of God I doubt not but this was one Cause among others may we not then question our Communion with you in your Administring of the Holy things for throwing out God's Ceremony It is one thing to hold Communion with a Person as a Christian which I can do with all my Soul another thing to hold Communion with the same Person as a Minister dispensing the Holy things of God For when as in Separation to Office God's Ceremony expressed in five or six Scriptures is left out have you not given us just Cause setting by the Authority of God in those Scriptures to question the lawfulness of your Ministry O why do our Brethren lay such Blocks in our way to hinder that which the Lord hath so Commanded and we so earnestly desire and seek after Unity I have spoken with some Ordained thus and they told me they would have been Ordained with Imposition of Hands and expected it but they who did it refused it the more trouble have they made in the Church They who come into the Gospel-Ministry must come in according to Gospel-Order God stands upon his Order 1 Chron. 15.13 God made a Breach upon us for that we sought him not after Due Order How severe was the Holy Law-giver then but there was not Due Order nor is here Due Ordination God is the same God still the God of Order as well as then The Scriptures are plain in this Point why are not we as plain what need have we of other words them what we find in the Scriptures If Imposition of Hands were but an indifferent thing or but a circumstance of the Action I could Answer my self But it will appear to be that in which Separation to Office is principally made and in which only it is seen That godly and learned Men may err as well by Diminishing from the Word as such have done in Adding to the Word I know nothing against it they are but Men But these Men who as I judge diminish from the Word would not therefore Vnite and hold Communion with them in Worship where these Additions were because they were godly and learned Men. We have our Rule to look to not Men further than they walk according to that Rule If the Reader meet with the Word Independent I desire him not to be offended for this Discourse between my Brother and my self was before the Agreement of the Vnited Brethren came forth yet the word may be used sano sensu well enough For I doubt not a particular Church duely ●●ganized walking regularly may Execute all the Power of the Keys within it self without dependency upon any other Churches As to the End of my publishing this Treatise my Conscience bears me Witness before the Lord I aim but at these two things 1. To remove that Block if I could which hinders our hearty Union I know it offends many of our Brethren besides it gives advantage to them who observe our Practices to speak against us and that justly 2. To keep up the Authority of the Scriptures which are so plain in this Case that if we will own Ordination without Imposition of Hands to be Due Ordination then the Authority of five or six Scriptures is set by I know no other ground of our Sufferings but our maintaining of the Authority of the Scriptures while Men would be Imposing upon us such things in the House and Worship of God which if the Questions were truly stated which they never did have no footing or ground in the Holy Scriptures but were their Addition to them as if the Wisdom of God in the Scriptures were defective If we suffered then for the Authority of the Scriptures while Men added to them we will not give away their Authority now while men diminish from them Where shall we End if this be the Practice As to the Second Question I seek Light 1. To have but one Pastor or Teaching Elder in a Church agrees neither with the Holy Scripture nor sound Reason Good Mr. Faldo was troubled about it I understand by his Letter to me 2. The Poverty of the Churches generally is such that very few can maintain One then not more 3. Complaints have been made by some Members of Churches that their Pastors have not proceeded rightly against them and they had no help 4. If then the Holy Scriptures have not declared that the Officers and Members of a Church must meet alwayes in One Place then all Church-work may be carried on which as now we stand cannot be I begg of the Father of Lights to Guide Vs The Unworthiest of the United Brethren GILES FIRMIN The Prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers Minister in Wethersfield in Essex concerning King Charles the first and Arch-Bishop Laud. IF you ask me who this Mr. Daniel Rogers was he was the Son of Mr. Richard Rogers a Man eminent in Holiness whom God honoured to make him his Instrument in bringing home many Souls to Christ If you ask what he was for Grace himself His Brother Mr. Nathanael Ward use to say of him My Brother Rogers hath Grace enough for two men but not half enough for himself His Natural Constitution was no Advantage to Grace If you ask what he was for a Divine his Works Answer for him If you ask what he was for a Scholar two things declared him to be a Scholar one was this When Arch-Bishop Land Visited Mr. Rogers was Summoned to appear and did so whether Mr. Rogers did grapple with the Arch-Bishop I cannot tell but one that lived in the Town where I now do being then present at the Court heard the Arch-Bishop say to him Mr. Rogers I acknowledge you to be a better Scholar than my self but I will make you know your place And silenced him A second thing was this which I had from a Kinsman of mine who was of Clare-Hall at the same time if not the same Year with Mr. Rogers the Man was a very moderate Episcopal Man he told me this The Arch-Bishop sends down a Coryphaus this was the Word he used to the University of Cambridge to Challenge the

Weighty Questions DISCUSSED I. Whether Imposition of Hands in Separating a Person to the Work of the Ministry be Necessary II. Whether it be Essential to the right Constitution of a particular Church that the Teaching Elders and the Members meet alwayes in One Place Whereunto is added A Prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers Minister in Essex long before the Beheading King Charles I. and Arch-Bishop Laud foretelling that they should not dye a Natural Death By GILES FIRMIN Author of the Real Christian What thing soever I Command you observe to do it thou shalt not add thereto nor diminish from it Deut. 13.32 LONDON Printed for the Author 1692. To the READER THat Unity among Christian Brethren is a thing not only beautifull in it self but also a Duty greatly incumbent upon them who profess that blessed Name of Christ none that read the Holy Scripture can be ignorant of it yea a Duty so greatly incumbent that they who do not all they can to promote it provided the Authority of the Scriptures be preserved taking care that they neither profess nor practise any thing in the House of God but what is according to the Holy Scriptures lest that Vnity should be hindered they neither shew that respect to the Command of Christ to us nor to the Prayer he made to his Father for this End as become Christians I thought I might have said At that Holy Table where we being many are one bread 1 Cor. 10.17 I do admit Independents Presbyterians Anabaptists Members of the Church of England that are and walk as Christians tho' we differ in Opinion and here Ecclesiastical Vnion is chiefly seen that both in former times and in these dayes I had been as desirous of this Vnity as some other Men. Glad I was when I heard some Brethren of the Independant and Presbyterial Perswasion in London did attempt it their Names were very dear unto me when I heard who they were that laboured in it tho' I knew none of them more glad I was when about four Years since a Copy of the Agreement was sent me to which my Brethren in the Countrey and my self readily consented We expected the same should have been Published but we find another much different from it In particular in the former Ordination was to be performed with Imposition of Hands but in this the Words are left out and these words put in The Person that is Chosen shall be Duely Ordained not expressing what that Due Ordination is However as it is worded I Consent to this and whatever be the different Sentiments I have from others in several things mentioned and more than are mentioned in the Agreement yet I have willingly Subscribed to it and Profess my self a Vnited Brother with all that are Duely Ordained In a small Treatise which some few Years since I published I took Notice of the Apostolical Churches how they were Constituted I named Nine Churches all that I could find in which were several Elders I find not one Church in the Gospel where was but One Pastor Since that Dr. Owen hath taken Notice of it and hath proved by several Scriptures and Reasons that there ought to be many Elders in every particular Church There were three Teaching Elders besides other Officers in his Church this was like a Gospel Church To have but one Pastor to govern is a Novel Opinion he saith and what he adds is true It is difficult if not impossible on supposition of one Elder only in a Church to preserve the Rule of the Church from being Prelatical or Popular As there ought to be many Elders in one Church so I doubt not but the true Primitive Church-Government was by a President with the Presbytery Not a President over more Churches but only one particular Church Not a President superiour in Power over the Presbytery but only Ordinis gratiâ Revel 2.18 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (a) The President 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 (b) The President with the Presbytery So Beza and Raynoldus Anglorum Eruditissimus c. saith Didocla Alta. Damas p. 131. the light of Nature directs to this I would willingly have but one Instance given where this Government was ever prejudicial to the Church More I could say I only mention this that tho' in these Points I may differ from my Brethren besides what are mentioned in the Agreement yet it hinders not my Vnion with them What this Due Ordination is our Brethren as I said have not told us Hence the Discussing of this Question falls not under that Prohibition p. 3. that we must not Dispute those different Sentiments For our Sentiments do all agree it must be Due Ordination which if it be not declared what it is we agree and Subscribe to we know not what Before I Subscribed I asked the Brethren whether the Subscribing to this Agreement did debar us from an amicable discussing the Questions wherein we differ they All Answered No. We were not hindered by it We know the different Sentiments before we Subscribe the Agreement and tho' we Dispute them yet our Vnion holds as well as if we did not dispute them The Apostle exhorts 1 Cor. 1.10 and Phil. 2.2 that we be all of one Mind of one Judgment If we must not labour after it to what purpose is the Exhortation Is not the discussing Controverted Questions in a Christian amicable way seeking Light from God and setting up his Ends not our own one way to come to be of one mind which the Apostle exhorts to I am sure it is and could give good proof of it from experience in the Question now disputed If we may not do this then it is as much as to say There are different Sentiments amongst us and shall be so for still I say the End of the Agreement which is Union is preserved As to the Question of Ruling Elders which have continued in the Virgin Churches of the Vaudois from the Apostles dayes and in the Churches of Bohemia The Apostle mentioning only Bishops and Deacons 1 Tim. 3. troubles me where their Work is laid open with much more satisfaction to me than in any Book I have yet seen in England I shall be thankfull to any Brother who will dispute the Question Pro or Con it shall not hinder Vnion As to this Question about Ordination it is to my Knowledge a great hinderance of our Vnion The thing is so clear in several Texts of Scripture how it should be performed and the Practice of the best if not all the Churches since the Apostles times have been accordingly with Imposition of Hands that I have wondered any Man should scruple it I heard of an Ordination in our County of an illiterate Person and that without Imposition of Hands after it was past hearing of another who is a Scholar to be Ordained by the same Persons I wrote to him to desire the Elders that were to Ordain him to give me the Scriptures which did Warrant

there be an Uniform Order touching Ordination of Ministers throughout the whole Realm and that with Imposition of Hands and thus it holds to this day Mr. An. 1598. pag. 424. Bruce having preached many Years would admit of Imposition of bands for Confirmation but not for Ordination Several denyed him to be their lawful Pastor for want of Imposition but others own'd him Mr. Bruce accepts of Imposition for Confirmation and Mr. Pont imposes hands upon him First As for Imposition of Hands for Confirmation as it is used in England after Baptism I find not one word of it in all the History nor did the Church of Scotland own it that I find there Secondly All this while there is not one Scripture brought by those who opposed Imposition Yet they had taken the Word of God for their only Rule which is so express for Imposition c. which makes me wonder at Mr. Bruce so holy a Man But if they had no Scripture had they no Reasons Yes they had one and but one and that a pityful one too Thus It being laid as a ground pag. 425. that none can receive Ordination to the Ministry without Imposition of Hands and that the Ceremony is proper to Bishops it behoved to follow that none could enter into the Ministry without the Imposition of the Hands of Bishops This is all very strange that Mr. Bruce should admit of Imposition of Hands for Confirmation when the Bishops do appropriate that to themselves as well as in Ordination How many things may be said to this to shew the weakness of this ground Any understanding man may easily see but I forbear The Representation of Presbyterian Government and put out the Year 1690. when Bishops are turn'd out tell us in the sixteenth Section That Men come into the Ministry by Election and Ordination by laying on of the Hands of the Bresbytery which is a mean of Communicating Authority to him Then it seems the Church of Scotland where this stir was can impose Hands in Ordination without Bishops By reading this History I find the Government of the Church of Scotland from the first beginning of Reformation was Presbyterian wherefore it was no small injury to impose upon them Prelatical Bishops unless they had been of Christs Institution which we are sure they are not And that our first Reformers in King Henry the Eights and in King Edward the Sixth's did declare That Episcopacy was no distinct Order from Bresbytery by Divine Right but only a prudent Constitution of the Civil Magistrate for the better Government of the Church SECT II. The Definition of Ordination AS to the word Ordination I think Greg de Valen. speaks right Tom. 4. Dis 9. Q. 1. p. 1. the word is taken from the Effect of that Ordinance Quia per Ordinationem aliquis in gradu quodam atque Ordine certo Ecclestasticae Dignitatis Constituit●r Some are Pastors some are Teachers some a●e Ruling Elders some are Deacons they are set or placed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Cor. 1.28 in such an Order in the House of God by Ordination Thus it hath passed for Currant many hundred Years in the Church till yesterday Election gave the Essence and Ordination was but an Adjunct I desire my Brethren but to give me that Adjunct according to the Word of God and we shall unite tho' we differ in our Logical Notions What should he done where Ordination cannot be had Something I had to say to it but being none of our Question I let it alone It is more material to know what Ordination is and being it is Essential to our Discourse I will give the Definition of it This being a sure Truth That they who do not give the Definition they do but mock the Person to be ordained and abuse the Ordinance for he is not ordained Cui convenit Definitio eidem quoque Convenit Definitum è Contra c. Ordination then is the Separation of a Person rightly qualified to the work of the Ministry by teaching Elders with Fasting Prayer and Imposition of Hands Something I had thought to have spoken about the Qualification wherein I see these mens Practices with no content their way being to debase the Ministry but the stress lying most in the Ordiners and Impositions of Hands I shall speak to these two Heads That it belongs to Teaching Elders Act. 13.3 Tim. 1.4.14 I prove it Here the People rise up and claim a Right by Virtue of their being the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Power of the Keys And I have seen it practised Two Private Persons imposed their Hands upon an Ancient grave Divine who was ordained I believe near 40 Years before in England c. They gave him the Essence in giving him a Call and so they gave him the Adjunct And this being the Opinion of these men here I preser their Ordination with Imposition of Hands and would own him for a Gospel Minister before them whom you ordain as you suppose without Imposition And if Ordination be no more than Prayer and Fasting what need of you according to the Principles of Independency in another Church It is not Prayer Preaching and Fasting Tho' I grant Preaching is very comely at such an Ordinance yet Preaching is not Ingredient into the Ordination The People can Fast and Pray as well as you I observed while the hands of these private Persons were upon the Head of their Pastor one of them made such a Prayer as might become any Minister it was so apposite to the business in hand that I could but wonder at it and I believe it was his own Composing Whether the Fraternity be the first Subject of the Power of the Keys Mr. Nath. Ward use to say They were the first Subject of the Key-Clog not the Keys So they have proved in many Churches I am sure I have spoken to it several Years since in another Tract I add but a few word now In the Common Wealth the People are before the Magistrate In the Church the Ministry is before the People Thus it began with the Apostles they were first and after them by a continual Succession of the Ministry the Church is continued The Ministry is the Instrument in God's Hand which he useth commonly or chiefly for the bringing in and building up of his Church 2 Cor. 6.1 Ephes 4.11 12. The principal Cause and the Instrument work together to the producing of the Effect that then the effect of a Power should be the first Subject of that Power of which 't is an Effect is new Logick to me Dr. Owen saith The Church is before Ordinary Ministers Answ First But is it before the Ministry Else 't is nothing Secondly The Proposition is not true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that faithful and laborious Servant of Christ Mr. Eliot whom I know and honour Mr. Mahew Mr. Leverick with great Labour and Industry get the Indian Language and preach'd to the Indians they were