though the Church can not its testimony ought to be believed Many Clownes who unanimously say they have seene an Eclyps or extravagant inundation of the Sea deserve credit though they be no Philosophers or Mathematicians and consequently can not give any cleare reason of an Eclyps c. Therefore the testimony of Catholicks ought not to be rejected concerning Transubstantiation or any other mystery though they can not give cleare reason for it it s enough for them to recurre to Gods omnipotency 7 But how say Protestants can we be called Hereticks or obstinate if we are content to submit our judgements and believe what is sufficiently proposed as Gods Revelation We onely deny that the Roman Church doth propose sufficiently as Gods Revelations their Decrees in the Councells of Trent and Lateran c. To this I have answered in the third Chap. and now againe do affirme that there is no Prince who doth propose his commands and sense concerning any matter more sufficiently by his subordinate Ministers then God doth his Word and sense of Scripture by the Roman Church Because there hath not beene onely a continuall succession of this Doctrine we professe from the primitive Church to this present which neither the Greeke Church See Chap. 9. nor any other can pretend to having changed the Doctrine of Faith more then once but because there do appeare such evident signes of the Roman Churches being appointed by God to declare to all the world the true Faith and sense of Scripture that it must be obstinacy in the highest degree to doubt of the sufficiency of the Roman Churches proposall and testimony First the conversion of Nations by Roman Catholicks in all parts of the world is evident Secondly no other Church doth pretend to miracles but we alone Thirdly we heare of no eminent sanctity confirmed by prophecy and other supernaturall signes in any Church but in ours Fourthly there is no unity peace or end of controversies but amongst us all submitting our judgements in matters of Faith to any generall Councell approved by the Pope Fifthly no Church hath continuall tradition and succession of Doctrine but we Roman Catholicks 8 All these signs are marks of the true Catholick Church and are so obvious to our senses that idiots may take notice of them if they will but inquire and spend as much time in that as in reading the History of their owne Countrey or of informing themselves of their Ancestors This is the true reason why no Protestants can pretend ignorance of the true Church nor rely upon the word of their Ministers If they inquire not they will be damned for being ignorant If after due inquiry made they become not Roman Catholicks they will be damned for Heresie not onely for denying the truth of our Doctrine and Faith but also the sufficiency of its proposal He is a rebell who denyeth that the accustomed exterior signes of the Princes commission and authority which are seene in his Officers is not a sufficient proposall of his will and pleasure to have the said Officers obeyed as his Judges or Deputies c. I see no reason why the same ought not to be grated with proportion in our case unlesse Protestants thinke that Princes ought to be more respected in their Ministers then God in his Church or that there is greater evidence required to believe that God doth speake by his Church then to believe that Princes do speake by their subordinate Ministers Truly though this greater evidence were required Protestants can have no excuse because the signes of the Roman Church are greater evidence that it alone is the true one by which God declares and speaketh his minde then the signes of any Magistrate in a Common-wealth or Kingdome are of the true regall authority of the said Magistrate by which Kings and Princes declare their minde to the Subjects See more in the 4. and 5. Chapters CHAP. XIII VVhether any Protestants may be saved 1 THough Protestancy be Heresie all Protestants are not Hereticks there is a difference saith Saint Austin betweene Hereticks and them who believe Hereticks The greatest wits may be misinformed if they rely upon other mens informations 2 To the question proposed I answer that such Protestants as never had any occasion to doubt whether their owne Religion be the true one may be saved if they never committed a mortall sinne because they are baptised and dye in the grace of God which they received in the Baptisme Now whether there be any Protestants who never committed a mortall sinne the Lord knowes this I am sure of that there are very few in any part of the world who have not great reason and many occasions to doubt of their owne Religion Because amongst them or neare unto the places where they live there are Catholicks who as Christians and true Friends advertise them of the falshood and novelty of their Sect. And though the Protestant Ministers assure them that they are in a safe way of salvation when others as honest and learned as the Ministers tell them the contrary they are bound under paine of damnation at least to examine the truth and grounds of both Religions according their capacity and possibility which if they do sincerely that is setting aside all regard of honour interest conveniency and all other temporall affections which obstruct the understanding God in his providence will give them knowledge of the truth and resolution to embrace it 3 But in case Protestants contemne the charitable warnings given them by Catholicks of the Schisme and Heresie wherein they are involved and neglect Gods inspirations of examining the truth there is no question to be made that if they dye in that condition they are damned because though they were brought up Protestants they had reason to doubt of their Religion seeing as honest and learned men as those that gave them their education and instruction advertised them seriously of their danger And not to examine whether the danger be reall or not in a matter of so high concernment is not excusable no ignorance can be pretended after they are admonished by sober and honest men I conclude therefore that onely such silly soules as believe the Pope hath hornes and the Jesuits cloven feete can be excused by ignorance from damnation for not believing as Catholicks doe because if any such be they are so simple that they believe all which the Minister sayes as Gods Word and that nothing ought to be called in question How many Ministers there be who deserve this credit and esteeme of infallibility even amongst the least prying and simple people let their owne Parishes and the world define This I dare say that there are few Protestants who commit not at least one mortall sinne and that is enough to damne them though their invincible ignorance as schoole men speake may excuse their want of true Faith But the want of Charity is as damnable as the want of Faith and we have no reason
both may be part of the Catholick Church Protestants as wâ— have seen in the former Chapter say that aâ—â— Christian Congregations are parts of the Catholick Church as well as we Roman Catholicks Thiâ— assertion they ground upon the signification of the worâ— Catholick which is as much to say as Vniversal In the saâ— me sense they explicate Catholick Tradition to be onelâ— that which is contradicted by any Christian Church According to this opinion no Congregation of Christian can be Hereticks because Hereticks must be obstinate against the Doctrine of the Universall or Catholick Church but no Christians can be obstinate against thâ— Doctrine of the Catholick or Universall Church seeinâ— themselves are part of it and they can not be obstinate against themselves or their owne Tenets and Doctrine therefore none can be Hereticks This absurd and hereticall sequele is a sufficient refutation of the Protestant principle and their explication of the word Catholick 2 But let us prove directly that neither all Christians nor any two Churches dissenting in their testimonies concerning whatsoever matters of Faith can be the Catholick Church My proofe is this The testimony of the Catholick Church concerning what is pretended to be revealed or not revealed by God must oblige all persons who are informed of it to believe what it saith and proposeth But if all Christians or any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies suppose Roman Catholicks and Protestants be parts of the Catholick Church the testimony thereof can not oblige any sober person to believe what both say and propose First because one Church contradicts the other and its impossible to believe contradictions at one and the same instant Secondly when witnesses do not agree in their testimonies if they be of equall authority no man is obliged to believe either side but rather is bound in prudence to suspend his judgement Therefore if the Catholick Church be composed of all Congregations and Churches of Christians or of any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies concerning matters of Faith no man is obliged to believe the testimony of the Catholick Church but rather to suspend his judgement and credit nothing which sequele is absurd and contrary to the Doctrine not onely of Catholicks but also of Protestants Therefore the Catholick Church must not be all Congregations of Christians or any two dissenting but one onely Congregation of persons who agree in one Faith CHAP. VII VVhether the testimony of the Catholick Church be infallible not onely as Protestants terme them in fundamentall but also in not fundamentall articles of Faith 1 THough we Catholicks say that all articles of Faith if once sufficiently proposed are in one sense fundamentall because under paine of damnation they must be believed yet in ananother sense we admit a distinction betweene fundamentall and not fundamentall articles of Faith Fundamentall articles may be called such as no ignorance of them can excuse men from damnation for not being believed Not fundamentalls may be called such articles as if proposed must be believed but if not proposed sufficiently the ignorance of them is excusable 2 But whether these articles be both called fundamentall or onely the first sort of them our controversie with Protestants is the same and the question is not set here out of its proper place because the resolution of it is necessary to answer an objection which Protestants make against the Doctrine of the former Chapter All Christians say they do agree in fundamentall points of Faith as in the Trinity Incarnation c. what great matter is it if they agree not in other things of little importance without the knowledge and sufficient proposall whereof they may be saved as Purgatory Transubstantiation c Why should we be obliged to believe things that are not absolutely necessary for salvation especially seeing Roman Catholick Divines do not deny that ignorance of not fundamentalls is not damnable Therefore all Christians though dissenting in not fundamentalls may be called Catholicks and the universall Church because they agree in all necessary articles of Catholick Religion and though their testimonies do not agree in Purgatory v.g. being an article of Faith why should their disagreement in that petty point invalid their testimony concerning the mystery of the Trinity Incarnation and other fundamentall articles 3 This discourse and objection of Protestants hath damned many a soule because they did not examine the truth of it as they ought But to declare the fallacy of it something must be said of the Churches infallibility Most Protestants do grant that the testimony of the Church is infallible in proposing the fundamentall articles of Christian Religion as in delivering Scripture to be Gods Word and in declaring the mystery of the Trinity c. because Christian and Catholick Faith must admit of no doubts concerning the truth of fundamentalls and if the Church be not infallible in proposing those to us we must necessarily doubt of their truth for though we doubt not that whatsoever God said is true yet we can not but doubt whether he revealed or meant any such thing as the mystery of the Trinity or Incarnation if we do not believe that the Church is infallible in proposing the said mystery God therefore in his Providence can not permit the Church to erre or deceive us in fundamentalls seeing its necessary for our salvation not to doubt of the truth of fundamentall mysteries but if the Church may erre in proposing them we can not but doubt of their truth This reason say Protestants can not be applyed to not fundamentalls because they are not absolutely necessary for salvation and our salvation is the onely motive that God had to make the Church infallible in proposing articles of Religion Therefore none is bound to believe that the Church is infallible in not fundamentalls 4 If the onely motive that God had to make the Catholick Church infallible were our salvation this discourse of Protestants might have some colour of truth but Gods motive in all his actions is not onely our salvation but in first place his owne honour and glory There is nothing concerns Gods honour more then that whatsoever is sufficiently proposed as revealed by him be credited by us without the least doubt whether the matter be great or of little importance Therefore the Churches infallibility and our obligation of believing it ought not to be measured by the greatnesse importance or absolute necessity of the matter proposed in order onely to our salvation but also by the sufficiency of the proposall in order to Gods honour and veracity If a matter not absolutely necessary for salvation be as sufficiently proposed to be revealed by God as the mystery of the Trinity the obligation is as great of believing the one without any doubt as the other The reason is cleare because there is as great an injury done to God by denying or doubting of his veracity and revelation in a small matter as in a great In believing
was fundamentall and not fundamentall I see no reason why the Catholick Church of this age should court Protestants more â—hen the Church of the fourth and fifth age did Arrians Nestorians c. I am sure the Arrians were more in number then Protestants and much more learned they had a more certaine Ordination of Priests and Bishops and many of them were of as good life and conversation as any Protestants are or were since the beginning of the pretended Reformation Why therefore should Protestants be a part of the Catholick Church and not Arrians or Nestorians If Protestants be admitted as part of the Catholick Church the Turkes Jewes and all others who believe there is one God may with reason complaine that they also are not looked upon as Catholicks For they and we agree in the two fundamentall articles which onely according the opinion of many learned Divines are necessary necessitate medij to wit that there is a God and that he is Remunerator Turkes and Jewes believe this therefore they agree both with us and Protestants in fundamentalls Let us all therefore be parts of the Catholick Church And though Jewes or Turkes be not baptized that can not prejudice them according the principles of Protestants their implicit or conditionall faith will excuse them as well as Protestants from damnation If God revealed the necessity of Baptisme or that Scripture is his VVord saith a Turke I believe both but untill that be made cleare unto me I am not more bound to believe either absoluly and without doubt then Protestants are to believe Transubstantiation I see no reason why this implicite and conditionall faith should not save Jewes and Turkes as well as Protestants if the mysteries not believed by either be equally proposed Therefore Protestants are no more part of the Catholick Church then Turkes or Jewes I am certaine we have no more need of the testimony of the one then of the other to establish what ought to be believed as Catholick Faith or what articles are fundamentall CHAP. VIII VVhether any reformed or Protestant Church of the world be the Catholick and Apostolick Church And whether their pretended clearnesse of Scripture doth sufficiently propose their doctrine as Divine Revelation 1 IN the fifth Chapter num This definition of the Church is clearly insinuated in Scripture Act. 1. v. 8. Luc. 24.48 Ioan. 18.37 Act. 5.32 Act. 2.32 Act. 4.33 Rom. 10. Math. 28. c. 2. it hath beene said that the Catholick Church is a multitude or Congregation of persons whose testimony doth so sufficiently propose their Doctrine or Faith to be Gods Word and the true meaning thereof that it is evidently imprudence and infallible damnation in any person whosoever not to acquiesce in the said testimony and not to believe without the least doubt what it proposeth as Divine Revelation The testimony of the true Catholick Church must not be credible onely to silly soules that believe any thing they heare by reason of their ignorance or because they were not rightly informed it must be credible to the most prudent and informed persons by reason that the said testimony is confirmed with so cleare signes and markes of Gods providence in planting and propagating the Faith professed by the true Church that all circumstances considered no informed and prudent person may judge any other Church to have as much as a probable appearance of the true one when they are compared with the Catholick 2 How the Protestant Churches and Reformation did beginne hath beene said in the first Chapter which supposed let us now examine whether any person can prudently believe that either the Protestant Church of England or that of Stratzburg or Zurick or Geneva be the true Catholick Church of God The ground of the beliefe of these and all other reformed Churches are reduced to two one is cleare Scripture pretended against the Roman errours as they call them the other is the private Spirit whereby they interpret the true sense of Scriptures to be contrary to the Tenets and Doctrine of the Roman Catholick Church This is all the evidence which Protestants have to prove that each of their owne Congregations is the true Spouse of Christ and that the Church of Rome is the VVhore of Babylon Miracles they do not pretend to and as for the two other signes which most of their Authors brag of that is the sincere preaching of the Word of God and the lawfull administration of the Sacraments these two can not be knowne nor perceived untill that whereupon they depend be first known to be the true sense of Scripture or the true Faith be knowne But when the true Faith is knowne we have no more need of signes to bring us to the knowledge of it or the true Church that professeth it then a Pilot hath of markes to be guided by into the haven after he is within safe and at anchor Therefore these two signes of Protestant are not true signes because they are as unknowne and as hard to be found out as the Church it selfe which â—s contrary to the nature and essence of a true signe 3 As for the first ground of Protestancy and Reformation which is the pretended clearnesse of Scripture against the Doctrine of the Roman Church it can as little confirme the testimony of the Church of England or Zurick c. as the Turkes Alcoran First they tell us that Scripture is against Transubstantiation Purgatory worship of Images c. We deny it and bring at least as cleare texts of Scripture for our selves as Protestants do against us They say the words and sense of Scripture are so cleare against our Doctrine that none can deny them Yet we reply that we are not so impious nor obstinate as to maintaine Doctrine point blank against Gods Word and sense Now the question is whether the testimony of Protestant Churches against us or ours in our owne behalfe and defence concerning the clearnesse of Scripture be most credible to sober and prudent men I answer that the testimony of Catholicks of the obscurity of Scripture against Transubstantiation worship of Images c. is not onely more credible then the testimony of Protestants to the contrary but also that the testimony of Protestants saying that Scripture is cleare against Transubstantion worship of Images Purgatory c. may be demonstrated to be false 4 That this may not be thought a vaine undertaking suppose that our controversie with Protestants concerning the clearnesse and obscurity of Scripture in controverted points is to be understood after all combinations and confronting of texts which seeme to have relation oâ— dependence one of the other I suppose also that somâ— Catholick Doctors have read and considered Scripture and all controverted texts as diligently as Protestants aâ— may appeare by their printed Bookes wherein they answer all Objections made by Luther Calvin Iewell c. 〈◊〉 thinke it also no discredit for Protestants to admit thaâ— at least some of our learned men and
well versed in Scripture have so much honesty as not to conceale from the world that true sense of Scripture which seemeth to themselves cleare and evident after the combination and examination of all controverted texts But to be briefe and decline all comparisons which are odious let us suppose for the present which Protestants ought to take as a courtesie that learned Protestants and learned Catholicks are equally honest and equally learned both honest and both learned if the contrary be not made appeare by the ensuing demonstration 5 It is impossible for men equally learned and equally honest to have any controversie about the sense of any words of Scripture if the sense be cleare and evident But Protestants and Catholicks who are supposed to be equally learned and equally honest have controversies about the sense of such words of Scripture as concerne Transubstantiation worship of Images and other controverted points Therefore its impossible that the sense of such words of Scripture as relate to Transubstantiation c. should be cleare and manifestly against the Doctrine of Catholicks Therefore the testimony of all Protestant Churches maintaining the clearnesse against them is not onely incredible but manifestly false Because the testimony of Catholicks though in their owne defence is made evidently true by the controversie it selfe a visible and undeniable effect that can proceede from no other cause amongst learned and honest men but from the obscurity of the words and sense wherein their judgements differ If they squable about what is cleare both parties or at least one is ignorant or not honest We Catholicks have no reason to thinke that all our Doctors want knowledge and sincerity its cleare to all Christenâ—ome that in our Church we have in all parts of the world â—oth learned and honest men and if Protestants thinke â—he same of themselves they must grant that our controâ—ersies do manifestly demonstrate the obscurity of Scripture 6 Seeing Scripture is obscure and in no place cleare against Transubstantiation worship of Images Purgatory c. what ground or warrant had the first Protestants for their pretended Reformation would not all the world have reason to laugh at us Catholicks if we should part with that ancient sense of Scripture in favour of Transubstantiation Purgatory c. which we received from the Church that went before us assuring it was revealed by God upon the bare word of Luther Calvin Knox or the â—2 persons that made the Ritual and pretended to reforme in Edward the VI. time the Sacraments both in matter forme and number What signes or miracles did they shew for their extraordinary Mission and Apostleship of reforming the Doctrine of the Catholick Church If any man who received his Land by inheritance from his Ancestors ought not to part with it if not forced by better evidence then his owne how can we part with our Faith and sense of Scripture which is the ground of all our supernaturall inheritance and happinesse untill Protestants shew a better title then the inheritance or continuall succession of our Doctrines from the Apostles They must produce better evidence then their pretended clearnesse of Scripture If they laugh at Quakers notwithstanding all the texts of Scripture which they have at their fingers ends against Protestant Doctrine how do they imagine did Catholicks looke upon the first pretended Reformers One advantage these new Quakers have against all Protestants which Protestants have not against Catholicks and it is that a new Quaker may say with truth to an old or new Protestant he hath as prudent ground and as good evidence for his owne interpretation of Scripture and Religion as the Protestant hath for his their fancies the onely ground of both their Faith being much alike and their Mission being not warranted by any precedent Church This the Protestants can not object against Catholicks because we had alwayes the word and warrant of a precedent visible Church for our interpretation of Scriptures and Religion CHAP. IX VVhether any Puritanicall Congregation be the Catholick Church by reason of their pretended spirit 1 THere not a trades-man or simple woman amongst the purer sort of Protestants who do not imagine themselves to be more infallible in interpreting Scripture then the Pope and all the generall Councells together This infallibility they attribute to the Spirit of God which they all pretend to have But this fond imagination is as easily refuted as the clearnesse of Scripture hath beene in the former Chap. because every pure Protestant or Puritan pretends to have the Spirit of God but that Spirit contradicting it selfe according the diversity of Tenets which the purely inspired hold it is impossible it should be the Spirit of God who can not inspire contradictions Yet they are so obstinate that its impossible to perswade them to the contrary though you may clearly convince them The Pope must be Antichrist Catholick Kings the horns of the Beast religious Orders rags of Rome wherewith the VVhore of Babylon adornes her selfe The Puritans must onely be the Elect the Saints and pure Zealots of the beauteous discipline of Sion which to carry on though whole Nations be extirpated their holy Spirit doth not onely rid them from any remorse of conscience but assures them no worke can be more meritorious If you inquire of them how they know whether this spirit of theirs be good or bad of God or the Divel Calvin their Patriarch and Master answers that they do discerne it as clearly as they do white from black sweet from sower and light from darknesse his proofe is the experience and testimony of every one of the faithfull Brethren concerning the purenesse of his owne spirit 2 This Calvinisticall and private spirit being so hidden and undiscernable can not be a sufficient and prudent ground at least for any man that hath it not to believe it is the Spirit of Truth and of the Catholick Church Men who are not in the true Church must be led into it by some credit and exteriour signes And though Faith be a gift of God yet it is communicated by preaching and hearing Rom. 10. We do not deny that God must helpe all Catholicks interiourly with his supernaturall grace and spirit but the difference between the Puritan and Catholick spirit is that the Puritan spirit inspireth a beliefe contrary to reason the Catholick spirit inspires a beliefe non contrary but agreable to reason Though Christian Faith be above reason it is not unreasonable But it can not be agreable to reason that any person believe a Puritanicall spirit without any more proofe of the goodnesse of it then a Puritans word against a sense of Scripture which hath beene continued in the Roman Churches since the primitive times as is evident by tradition testimony of Fathers and acknowledged by the Magdeburg Centuries and other Protestant Writers Therefore the private spirit can not be a sufficient proposall of the true Faith or a credible and convincing signe of the true Church
age That is to say in every Century or age there were honest men and lawfull witnesses who testified that Henry the IV Ancestors descended from Saint Lewis though one onely age could remember or see Saint Lewis yet the next ensuing did see the first and heard their testimony the third did see the second c. In every age did live men whose testimony might be relyed upon It must be granted therefore by all that the knowledge which is grounded upon a continuall and never interrupted tradition is sufficient for lawfull witnesses 6 That the Roman Catholick Church hath a continuall and never interrupted tradition of its Faith and sense of Scripture being taught by Christ and the Apostles can not be denyed by our adversaries it being evident to the world that they who contradicted any article of this Faith we now professe in former ages were looked upon and condemned as Hereticks which is an infallible argument that we in every age received our Doctrine from the former not as the word of men but as the Word of God or as Divine Revelation for if it were not believed as Divine Revelation why should we condemne men as Hereticks because they denyed it Neither do Protestants deny that we believed our tradition and the testimony of our Church to be grounded upon Divine Revelation they onely say we were mistaken and that both our tradition and testimony of the Roman Church was fallible But then we urge that they acknowledge both were infallible in delivering to them the Scripture and testifying that it was the Word of God therefore in delivering and testifying all the rest seeing the same testimony delivering many things together must be of equall authority in all and equally believed by them who accept of it as a lawfull proofe All our pretended Reformers had no other ground in the yeare 1517. to believe Scripture as Divine Revelation but the testimony of the Roman Church Therefore they ought to believe all the rest or not to believe Scripture 7 I said it concernes also our adversaries to grant that their reformed Churches have no lawfull witnesses in matters of Faith because there can not be that sufficient knowledge which is required in a lawfull witnesse of Faith without tradition whereby it may appeare that the Faith and sense of Scripture of this age doth agree with that of the primitive Church If once our adversaries acknowledge lawfull witnesses of things past long since without a constant and never interrupted tradition every man whose spirit of ambition moves him may pretend to be true heire of any hereditary crowne or estate and without further proofe then his owne word and spirit or some obscure text of Scripture will exclude Kings and others whose rights are grounded upon tradition But if tradition be so necessary to preserve and make credible the testimony of men in matters of estates and rights in the Common-wealth it can not be superfluous to make credible the testimony of men concerning matters of Faith 8 It remaines now we prove that the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church hath beene confirmed with supernaturall signes or miracles But seeing there are in the Roman Church lawfull witnesses who prove that the Faith which they now professe is the same with that of the primitive Church miracles also are proved by the same witnesses it being granted by Protestants themselves that miracles were wrought in the primitive Church to confirme the Faith which Christ and his Apostles taught Yet in the Roman Catholick Church there are now lawfull witnesses and have beene in every age since Christs preaching that there have beene miracles done in confirmation of the Roman Faith This is evident to all who read the Ecclesiasticall Histories of present and past times Neither can our adversaries deny that we have lawfull witnesses for miracles now wrought in our Church even in confirmation of that Doctrine wherein we differ from them and reported by so credible testimonies See the 13. Chap. that it were imprudence in any person whosoever to deny them which is enough to propose sufficiently our Doctrine as Divine Revelation But Protestants do not believe our miracles because they imagine that they are against Scriptures that is against their owne interpretation of it and that some miracles have beene false and forged We do not say that all things which the common people thinke to be miracles are really true miracles but we affirme that true miracles there are in our Church and very frequent confirming that very Doctrine which Protestants reject the forgery or knavery of some particular wicked men in feigning miracles can not prejudice all especially such as are seene and experimented by persons of knowne integrity and learning able to discerne betweene true and false miracles otherwise it will follow that all the new Testament must be called in question or denyed to be Gods Word because Saint Thomas his pretended Ghospell or Nicodemus his writings are condemned as forged or Apocryphall That no reformed Church of Protestants can have lawfull witnesses to propose sufficiently their Doctrine as Divine Revelation is evident because for the space of 1500. yeares they were without any visible Church or tradition therefore their witnesses also are invisible and by consequence not lawfull or credible Fox and others made a certaine Catalogue of men who opposed the Doctrine of the Roman Church in former ages but they were known Hereticks and did neither agree amongst themselves nor with Protestants in their Tenets or Religion as hath beene demonstrated by Father Persons in his Examination of Fox his Kalendar and by many others 9 I conclude therefore that seeing Protestants grant there is and hath alwayes beene a Catholick Church upon earth and that Church must have lawfull witnesses testifying their Doctrine to be Divine Revelation it being evident that no Congregation of men can produce any such lawfull witnesses but the Roman Catholicks amongst whom I include also them of the Greeke Church who agree with us it s also evident that there can be no Church Catholick but the Roman CHAP. XI VVhether Transubstantiation and the lawfulnesse of the worship of Images be sufficiently proposed by the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church as Divine revelation and whether Protestants have any lawfull exceptions against them 1 THere are so many Bookes printed in defence of these Catholick Tenets that I judge it superfluous to treate of them ex professo I will onely answer some exceptions that Protestants have made against them to my selfe in diverse occasions That the Roman Church doth propose these articles sufficiently as Divine Revelation is cleare because it proposeth them by the same testimony and confirmed by the sames signes whereby it proposeth Scripture to be Gods Word this last proposall Protestants themselves grant to be so sufficient that no man may in prudence deny it Therefore the same must be said of all the rest and in particular of Transubstantiation and worship of Images 2 But let us
propension to make our selves Scripture as our selves shall interpret it or which is the same the Rule or Judge of Controversies Therefore it s no supernaturall action nor no meritorious act to believe after this manner as Protestants do for men have no difficulty in believing themselves and they believe themselves not God when their own interpretation of Scripture is followed against that of the Church It remaines now a reason be given Why do Protestants believe the most obscure and difficult mysteries of Christian Religion if their Faith be meerly historicall How can they without a supernaturall power and favour believe that the Scripture is Gods Word the Trinity the mystery of Incarnation c. To this doubt I answer that as I said in the beginning of this Chapter there is no difficulty in believing the most improbable and extravagant things when they are told us by persons we credit and are not contradicted by any whose testimony we value In matters of Religion Protestants value no men but Christians and such mysteries as they believe are not contradicted by any Christians at least in our parts of the world They believe therefore all they believe because they have been told so by their Parents and others who had the charge of instructing them and not because God revealed it which is the onely motive of Christian and supernaturall Faith It s a received principle that he who denyes one article of Christian Religion believes none at all It can not be said that he believes none with historicall beliefe as Protestants believe the mystery of the Trinity Incarnation and Scripture to be Gods Word The meaning of all Divines is that he who denyes one article of Faith believes none at all with Christian or supernaturall beliefe This is most true for to believe like a Christian is to believe the mysteries of Christian Religion because they are sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation by the testimony of the Church not of every Church but of the true Catholick one which onely giveth lawfull authority and sends Preachers and Doctors to instruct the people God hath not promised his helpe and supernaturall inspiâ—ations which are necessary to believe with Christian Faith to them who are unsent uncalled unconsecrated but onely to such lawfull Ministers as are appointed and ordained by them who derive their Doctrine and succession from the Apostles through a never interrupted line That no Church but the Roman Catholick doth propose sufficiently as Divine Revelation the Doctrine which they preach hath been proved in the 8. Chapt. whence it followeth that out of the Roman Catholick Church there can be no true Faith nor salvation and that to deny one article of Faith in the least matter is to deny all because the motive of our beliefe is denyed as much in a little matter as in the greatest See the 7. Chap. The motive being denyed or rejected nothing can be believed with Christian Faith because of the motive depends all An infallible argument of denying the motive of Christian Faith is to contemne the testimony of that Congregation of men which hath the signes of being the true Catholick Church as a legall and orderly succession of Doctors and Doctrine conversion of Nations Miracles and markes of so eminent and extraordinary sanctity of life that the like was never found in Heathen Philosophers but farre exceeds all that hath beene discovered in any that wanted supurnaturall grace as is the entire renunciation of all the worldly pleasure profit and honour an inflamed affection towards God and his glory with an unfatigable zeale of the salvation of soules and desire of suffering for Christs sake whereof we Catholicks alone have an infinite number of undeniable examples No other but the Roman Church can as much as pretend to have the signes of the true Church as miracles remarkable either in number or quality c. Therefore whosoever denyes one article of the Roman Religion denyth also the motive of Catholick Faith which as we have proved is proposed onely by the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church and consequently he who doth not stick to it believes nothing at all with Christian and supernaturall Faith The very Devils and damned soules have the Protestant or historicall beliefe God who is Author of all graces and favours both naturall and supernaturall grant to all Protestants that pretious gift of Faith without which it is impossible to please His Divine Majesty or to obtaine the end whereunto we were all created FINIS
there must be good correspondence betweene both Rationall creatures are saved by a rationall way There is a generation of men that thinke none can enter into the true Church by Faith if he leaves not his wits behind him at the doore so great an antipathy they conceive is betweene Faith and Reason that to embrace the one is to renounce holy and exclude tâ—e other This errour proceeds from confounding the mystery believed with the beliefe It s very certaine that the truth of Divine mysteries ought not to be censured by human understanding because they are above its reach that which seemeth to man very improbable may be an infallible verity But that we fall not into extreames on the other side its fit we know that no person is bound to believe any mystery he understands not before he seeth reason to believe it though that reason cleares not the mystery yet it makes manifest our obligation to believe it None is bound to part with his ovâ—ne Religion or opinion before he knoweth upon what score There is nothing so much and so properly our owne as our thoughts our lands and all other properties may be forced from us our thoughts can not they remaine free though our selves should be slaves Seeing therefore its a right of nature not to part with our owne goods being in possession unlesse better evidence be produced by others then we can shew for them the same right must be extended to our thoughts even in matters of Faith because the Law of grace doth rather perfect then destroy the Law of nature and equity 3 To prove that Protestancy is manifestly against reason it s enough to prove that it is manifestly against reason to believe as Protestants do There is not one article of any Protestant Church opposite to the Roman Catholick Faith that is not manifestly against reason in this sense This assertion may be proved first because Protestancy is Heresie as hath beene proved in the 12. Chap. and Heresie is manifestly against reason for Heresie involves obstinacy and an obstinate man is manifestly unreasonable because he is guided by his will not by his understanding None can properly be obstinate if not convinced convinced none can be but by cleare reason or by lawfull witnesses to whose testimony evident reason commands all men give credit and submit their judgements if there be not cleare evidence against it All Common-wealths do acquiesce in and take the word of honest men in both publick and private affaires as in punishing Malefactors disposing of inheritances c. That the Catholich Church hath a great multitude of lawfull witnesses and testimonies against Protestancy hath beene demonstrated Therefore Procestancy is manifestly against naturall reason which dictates to all rationall creatures to conform themselves to the testimony of lawfull wicnesses when they have no evidence against the said testimony Protestants can not pretend evidence of reason against Catholick Tenets because they are above reason Evidence of the private spirit is ridiculous and incredible to others therefore unfit for the true Catholick Church as hath beene proved in the 9. Chap. There remaines onely their pretended evidence or clearnesse of Scripture which hath beene alsoo confuted in the 8. Chap. Other lawfull witnesses against ours they have none unlesse we grant that an invisible Church never heard of before Luther hath lawfull testimonies And as for the sentences of some Fathers which they wrest in their owne behalfe we produce others against them of the same Fathers in which they explaine themselves Therefore it s manifestly against reason to believe as Protestants do because they have no prudent ground for Protestancy their Faith is not above reason but below it that is unfit to be embraced by any rationall creature 4 Another manner of proving Protestancy to be manifestly against reason is by this cleare principle When witnesses and testimonies are contrary they onely are to be believed who confirme what they say with visible and evident signes Reg. 3 Salomon judged that the child about whom there was so great a dispute betwixt the two women did belong to her who shewed a visible and sensible horror against the dividing of the infant into two parts Though the other was confident enough in testifying the child was her owne yet because her testimony was not confirmed by any exteriour and visible signe the contrary testimony was preferred and believed by Salomon If we will judge of Religions as wise and rationall men we must examine which of all Christian Churches testimony is confirmed with evident and visible signes No Protestant Church all of them being invisible for so many ages can pretend so evident and visible signe The Roman Catholick Church doth not onely pretend to visible signes but they are so evidently appearing in the said Church that no Protestant can deny them without forfeiting his judgement or his ingenuity The visible signes of the true Church must have so evident a relation to God the Author of both Church and Faith that whosoever will reflect upon the said signes can not prudently deny that they are a sufficient proofe of God being the Author of the Doctrine or Faith confirmed by them There can not be a more rationall and sufficient proofe of any Doctrine being taught by Christ and his Apostles then a continuall succession from them to us both of Pastors and Doctrine delivered from age to age by the Doctors of the Church See this in Esay 59.21 Psal 45.16 Ephes 4.11.12 5 As for our succession of Pastors it is confessed by Protestant Our succession of Doctrine from the Apostles to this present must also be granted because they could never tell us though continually pressed in that particular point when did the Roman Church fall from the true and sincere Faith which confessedly it once professed And And truly before Protestants prove that the Roman Faith was changed in any age they must first prove that all the Pastors and Doctors of that age did conspire together to damne both themselves and posterity or if they did not conspire to so incredible a thing it must be necessarily said that in that age wherein the first change of any article of Faith happened all the Catholicks of the world weremad or slept for the space of a hundred yeares because if they were awake and sober its impossible but in some parts of the world nay in every part and Countrey some learned and honest men would contradict so damnable and abominable practises and advertise future ages of the innovation of Christian Religion contrary to cleare Scripture and the knowne beliefe of all Catholicks in former ages It s as evident therefore that we Roman Catholicks have not changed that Faith which we received from the Apostles as it is evident that there was not any age wherein all the world conspired to damne themselves and their posterity or as it is evident that there was not any age wherein all the world was so benummed stupified or
by examining the truth of the mysteries we believe that is to be supposed and not disputed To be a good Controvertist is not to give reason of what you believe but to give reason why you believe what you understand not this last requires no Greek or Hebrew nor Schoole learning and therefore may be as well performed by a Catholick Clowne is by a Bachelour of Oxford or Cambridge 10 Now to descend to particular methods hereby the learned Protestants may be convinced by illiterate Catholicks I will onely mention two both of them very ordinary and usuall amongst the most vulgar sort of people The first is by asking of Protestants What newes of Religion The second by inquiring of them by what right or warrant do they condemne any article of the Roman Catholick Faith I do seriously averre that every Countrey-man who hath wit and judgement enough to except at the Assises against an illegall and false witnesse hath leaming enough to convince in controversies of Religion the most learned Protestant Minister And every carrier or husbandman who hath so much wit and judgement as not to believe an extravagant and incredible history or ballads of some strange feigned Monster hath wit and judgement enough to convince any Protestant whosoever The reason of this Assertion is very cleare because there was never so incredible a Monster or Chymera composed of so many contradictions and impossibilities as this new fangled Religion framed by the fancies of a company of dissolute Priests and Friars pretending to have beene enlightened by the Spirit of God and sent by an extraordinary calling without miracles to reforme not onely the manners but also the Doctrine of the Catholick Church What Countrey Clowne amongst Catholicks can be persuaded to believe that all this which the first Protestants pretend is true Is it not obvious to every rationall creature that God never made use of so wicked instruments to reforme the world and plant the true Religion What evidence do Reformers produce against the Doctrine of the Roman Church what witnesses what signes to confirme their testimonies Do Protestants agree amongst themselves All this will be more clearly understood by the ensuing Conference betweene a Catholick Clowne and a learned Protestant Minister SECT II. A Dialog betweene a learned Protestant Minister and a Catholick Clowne 11 CAth. What newes good Master Doctor of your English Protestant Church Minist As much persecuted as ever Bapists were by Queen Elizabeth There is liberty given to all Sectaries Anabaptists Quakers c. we onely are excepted against Cath. I see no reason why ye Protestants should not be reformed by Puritans and Quakers as ye reformed us Catholicks I am sure they bring as many texts of Scripture against your Doctrine and Discipline as ye did against ours Minist We reformed onely your Papisticall abuses that were contrary to the cleare Word of God Cath. The same thing do Puritans or Presbyterians say against you But it s incredible newes to me that which you tell me of any abuses we should have in our Church contrary to the expresse Word of God Minist Didst thou ever read the Scripture Cath. No truly Minist I knew so much the reason why ye are not permitted to read the Bible is that ye may not discover the errours which Jesuits and other Masse Priests teach ye as the respect to Images and Statues praying to Saints Purgatory c. These and many more are clearly contradicted by Scripture Cath. Though I were permitted to read Scripture I can not because I never learned to read Yet I have spoken with many learned men who read Scripture and they all unanimously assure me that there is not one word in all Scripture contradicting worship of Images praying to Saints or Purgatory Now I see no reason why I should reject their testimony and take yours 12 Minist Faith is a gift of God thou must not tye it to any mans sleeve pray to God that he may give thee his Spirit Cath. I have heard much of a Spirit that every one of ye Protestants and Puritans pretend to have but I could never see any effect or signe of it Minist We Protestants pretend no such Spirit Cath. How come ye then to alter the old sense of Scripture which was in England for a thousand yeares before Edward the VI. if no Spirit did inspire or interpret the Scripture after the reformed fashion why did ye not stick to the old way Minist Because we could not in consciences there being so many cleare texts against Popery Cath. That is incredible for in the space of a thousand yeares some man or other would meet with those cleare texts Minist Well thou art an honest fellow we will not dispute thou art not capable of understanding what I have to answer to that objection of thine Cath. Nay good Master Doctor trust my understanding for once I pray resolve my doubt Min. Truly I must deale clearly with thee I am of opinion that for the space of one thousand yeares past all Roman Catholicks did hold damnable Doctrine manifestly contrary to Scripture yet I believe their ignorance did excuse them from damnation 13 Caeh How is it possible that there should be so much ignorance in all the world for the space of a thousand yeares that none could see those cleare texts of Scripture which you and other Protestants pretend to see Min. Mistake me not Countreyman the texts of Scripture which we produce against your errours and superfluities are not so very cleare but that they may be misunderstood if God doth not enlighten the understanding as he hath done to us Protestants Cath. I thought you pretended no such Spirit or private inspiration I heare reported by credible Authors that the first Protestants or Reformers in every Countrey were dissolute Piests or Friars who married and lived not so exemplarly as the Catholick Clergy doth Therefore I can not persuade my selfe that God would enlighten them more then us at least I am not bound to believe it unlesse I see miracles or some other markes of sanctity which is more then ever I perceived as yet in any of your Religion I hope you will pardon my freedome Min. I warrant thou dost believe all the miracles that are reported to have beene done at Loreto Sichem and other Chappell 's Didst thou ever see any miracle thy selfe Cath. No indeed but I have seene others who were present at the working of strange miracles as that of Naples when the Jefuit Mastrilli was cured on a sudden by Saint Francis Xaverius and sent by him to lapon where he dyed a Martyr Many others I have heard testified by credible Authors that I have as much reason to believe as any who should endeavour to persuade me the contrary therefore trouble not your selfe in this matter unlesse you will have me doubt of all things I heare because I have been deceived in something Min. Why believe not ye our miracles as ye would have us believe
yours Cath. Because we never heare of any cleare and undeniable miracles I am sure ye have none to confirme the articles wherein ye Protestants differ from us no nor any that lookes like miracles when they are compared with ours 14 Minist Seeing thou dost not desire to speake of miracles let us returne to Scripture Grant that the texts of Gods Word which we bring against Popery were not cleare must they not therefore be believed because forsooth they are obscure Christian Faith must be obscure honest fellow Doth not thy Parish Priest instruct thee thus Cath. My Pastor and Confessor both tell me that the mysteries of Christian Faith are obscure but never incredible Min. Now friend I have caught thee Is it not incredible that there is no bread in the Sacrament of the Altar Why therefore dost thou believe Transubstantiation as a mystery of Faith Cath. It is rather incredible there should be any bread in the blessed Sacrament for if there were why should all Catholicks deny a thing that hath so great appearance Whether bread be there or no Priests have the same almes for saying Masse no gaine acrues to them by Transubstantiation On the other side its impossible that all Catholicks should be so mad as to contradict their own senses if God had not commanded them not to credit their eyes and tast in this Divine mystery but rather to rely upon his words and believe that the blessed Sacrament is his Body if it be Christs Body it can not be bread because our bodies are no bread and Christs Body is of the same nature with ours 15 Min. Alas poor ignorant soule Christs words must be understood spiritually he himselfe told the Disciples that his words are spirit and life Cath. Iohn 6. I heard our Pastor the last Sonday explaine that same text to confirme Transubstantiation For he said that Christ is in the Sacrament truly and really but with a spirituall presence and that we receive his very Body and Bloud though not in a corporall manner there is some difference quoth he betweene eating of Christs Flesh and eating a piece of beefe This onely was Christs meaning when he said that his words were spirit and life which no way can prejudice Transubstantiation though some Puritans thinke that they are contrary to the reall presence Whether bread be there or no Christs true Body and Bloud is received in the Communion according Protestants so that it concerns them as much as Catholicks to interpret these words of Christs as we do unlesse ye will become Calvinists by saying that ye eate Christs Body by Faith that is ye believe to receive him when ye do not which is a lying and false Faith or that ye receive his grace but not himself and that is to deny in plain termes the reall presence All this did our Pastor teach in the Cathechisme 16 Min. Well in this matter none is bound to believe your Pastor or his Cathechisme we believe that Christ is really present in the Sacrament but how he is there we do not examine neither ought the Roman Church or the Councell of Lateran impose Transubstantiation upon us as a thing necessary to be believed Cath. I have heard talke much of that Councell of Lateran they say there were present thereat the Pope and two Pattiarchs of the East 70. Metropolitans 400. Bishops and 800 other learned men out of all parts of the world If Transubstantiation was not a necessary article of Faith they did very ill to declare it one and condemne as Hereticks all such as denyed it Yet me thinks the testimony of so many learned men is of greater weight I pray Sir pardon me if I offend you I do not intend it then the testimony of any reformed Church to the contrary I never heard of such a Councell in any Protestant Church It s true I heare that the Ministers of Stratzburg and of the Church of Zurick look as reverendly as the Protestant Church of England and have set forth as exact a Confession of their beliefe as ye have done of yours in the 39. articles but I could never learn that any of you had such an Assembly as the Councell of Lateran or of Trent Therefore ye can not blame Catholicks to preferre the testimony of these Councells before the testimonies of the Church of Stratzburg Zurick or that of England which was modeld as our Priests tell us by six Bishops and six other men or the major part of them seven of them were sufficient to cast Christian Religion take away Sacraments alter the matter and forme of them and change the ancient ceremonies Without doubt its more reasonable to rely upon the Councell of Trent then upon the twelve or seven persons that invented the Common prayer Booke and the Ritual of the English Church 17 Min. Hast thou ever heard of one Fr. Paulo who writ the History of the Councell of Trent and describes how the holy Ghost was sent in a bag thither from Rome Cath. I have heard much of that man they say he was no Saint at least of our Church and had a spleene against the Pope If what he writes were true not onely the Bishops and others who were in the Councell of Trent had beene mad or Impostors but all the Catholicks of the world who accepted the same as a true Councell ought to be declared and recorded naturall fooles It s more credible that Fr. Paulo was a lying Knave then that all the Catholicks of the world are naturall fooles or that all the Bishops of the Couuncell were Impostors Therefore I can not believe his History of the Councell of Trent Truly his expression of the holy Ghosts journey in a bag proves him to have been a profane fellow They say his history is both solidly and elegantly confuted by Palavicini the Jesuite It s strange to me how sober Protestants can believe such fopperies and wicked practises of the chief Prelats and persons of the Catholick Church 18 Min. Hold there friend Dost thou thinke that onely the Roman Catholicks are the whole Catholick Church ye are but a part Cath. I am sure Roman Catholick alone were the whole Catholick Church before that Luther and Calvin begun their pretended Reformation They and all ye Protestants differ from us in Faith Therefore ye are no part of the Catholick Church that was called so in the year 1516. If God hath Instituted another Catholick Church since and ye make that appear I am content to call ye Catholicks but untill then Master Doctor you must excuse me Min. Ye and we believe the same things onely ye differ from us in some petty matters not necessary to be believed as Transubstantiation Cath. Do you call that a petty thing which the Catholick Church defined to be a matter of Faith who shall be the Judge of what is necessary or not necessary to be believed Min. Not your Pope nor his Councels because y are a part and have a prejudice