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A01735 A short reply vnto the last printed books of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood, the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatists in England VVherein is layd open their grosse ignorance, and foule errors: vpon which their whole building is founded. By George Gyfford, minister of Gods holy worde, in Maldon. Gifford, George, d. 1620. 1591 (1591) STC 11868; ESTC S118836 80,934 106

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gouernement by Bishops not such as you set it forth well let vs procéede Here now we must lay open what power the Pope dooth exercise and what power the Bishops in our Church doo exercise to sée if it be the same or the like Also whether the Bishops doo exercise any power but that which Christ hath giuen to his Church to be exercised by men that is either by Bishops or Presbyteries Touching the Pope he hath vsurped power ouer the whole word of God affirming that the holy scriptures haue no authority as they say vnto vs no certainty for the sense no life but as hee doth giue vnto them And for this cause hee doth take vpon him to expound them as he will contrary to the grammer sense Hee doth take vpon him to dispense with all and to abrogate expresse lawes of God And further he taketh vpon him to make lawes of his owne to bind the fayth and conscience of all men euen as the articles of our fayth doo bind or the expresse doctrine of the sacred Scriptures Hee doth vsurp in sundry things of so high nature apperteming peculiarly to God as that he sheweth himselfe as God The power which the Byshops of our Church do exercise is first in examining appro●uing and ordaining ministers and authorising them to preach the Gospell Secondly it is in this that they are to sée the orders of the Church for the publick administration duly obserued and so they haue power to excommunicate suspend and depriue c. such as shall transgresse either against doctrine order or in manners Touching lawes they haue not power to make any one not euen in things méete indiff rent neither haue they power to abrogate or to take away any one that is made and by the publick authority of our Church established they can giue no commaundements of their owne That Christ hath giuen power to ordaine ministers and to execute the censures Ecclesiasticall you doo not call into question the controuersie is but by whome this power should bee executed whether by Bishops or by Presbyters If there be an error in the execution of it by Bishops or if there be a fault in the execution by Elders this fault or error dooth not destroy the power it selfe nor yet maketh it Antichristian as ruling ouer the faith and conscience I knowe Master Barrow that ye will here take great exception and say that the chiefe thing is yet behind For as ye charge the presbyteries most heynously in that they take vpon them to decree and ordayne Canons and constitutions vnto which they inioyne obedience in the people so the Bishops execute the lawes and Canons which haue been ordeyned by men though not by themselues the matter is all one Is not this to exercise Lordship and dominion ouer mens faith and conscience About this then must be our speciall question whether Christ hath giuen such a power vnto the Church as to make lawes or Cannons in externall matters which wee call things indifferent And whether the vrging men to kéepe them be not to take away Christian libertie and so to rule ouer the faith and conscience I knowe this question is hard to bee discussed to make euery simple man vnderstand the matter You Master Barrow and Master Greenwood are most blind in it I wish the reader to obserue because it is one maine rocke vpon which ye are runne And crye out what ye can that I like a marked seruant of Antichrist like a graceles man that hath his conscience seared with a hot Iron doo change yee wrongfully yet it shall bee euident that by seeking an Annabaptisticall freedome ye do abridge the power of the Christian Magistrate and of the Church To come therefore vnto the matter that which S. Iames sayth must first stand sure namely That there is one lawgiuer which is able to saue and to destroy Iam. 4. vers 12. Hereupon it is most sure that God alone hath Lordship ouer the conscience of man to binde the faith and conscience For looke what God hath by his lawe commaunded to bee done it is good it is holie no King nor the whole Church can make any part of it euill or commaund it not to be done Looke what God hath forbidden to be done that same is euill and vnholy no King nor yet the whole Church can make it good and holy or command it to bee done I say further that the law of God is so absolutely perfect that there is no righteousnes for men but it is therein conteyned neyther is there any vnrighteousnes but it is therein forbidden Wherefore they which take vpon them to make lawes to binde the conscience eyther by abrogating or by adding commit most high and blasphemous sacriledge of which the whole poperie is to be condemued But now there are certayne middle actions and things which we call indifferent because if we simply respect them in themselues or in their owne nature they bee neither good nor euill In these consisteth one part of Christian libertie to vse or not to vse with knowledge and discretion Now if we respect the very nature of these things no Prince or church can change it as to make them to become necessarily good or necessarily euill in themselues to the conscience And therefore touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. vers 21. making the outward indifferent things vncleane to the conscience is to vsurpe an Antichristian power ouer the conscience euen agaynst God Also to make those externall things to be of necessitie to the conscience is to lay a yoake of bondage and agaynst this wee are willed to stand fast in the freedome wherewith Christ hath made vs free Gal 5. vers 1. Hetherto Master Barrow I thinke yée will agree with me But now touching the externall vse of these things either for Princes to make politick lawes to commaund the vse or to restraine the vse of them or for the Church to make Cannons and constitutions to commaund or restrayne the vse as shall serue for order and comelines therein lieth our disagreement and therein ye pleade for your Annabaptisticall freedome and confusion I meane that ataxia or ouerthrowe of all order First ye call it a subtill distinction which Master Caluine vseth of the externall or ciuill Court and the Court of conscience in your discouerie pag. 88. And you say Master Caluine hauing very truely set downe that it is heinous presumption in any mortall man to restrayne or make lawes of such things as the Lord hath left in libertie hee straight way least he should keepe backe ciuill Magistrates from receiuing the Gospell inuenteth a politick distinction betwixt the ciuill court and the court of conscience saying that this outward court respecteth men onely and bindeth not the conscience of the doer the other concerneth matters belonging vnto God and therefore bindeth the conscience Thus hath he both lost and entangled himselfe and vtterly ouerthrowne all his former doctrine pag. 93. In pag. 247. of
the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein ●●ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue y● which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant thē a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and b●ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away frō this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not sa●ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratiō of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it w●l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popis●●● don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusiōs of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of Sathā out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry
sundry respects to be warned before when wée shall depart out of this world and a thing which we couet and I see no reason why we may not for such respects craue it of the Lord. You would make men beleeue that we coniure Christ by his incarnation by his natiuitie baptisme fasting and temptation by his agony and bloudy sweat by his Crosse and passion c. When we pray to be deliuered by them hath not our Sauiour dotte these things for our deliuerance And did he not deliuer vs by them What blasphemie heresie or coniuration is there then in this praier as to say deliuer vs by thy precious death and passion You aske where we learned to pray for our forefathers offences I answer that wée reade that the Lord will visit the sinnes of the Fathers vpon the Children and therefore we desire the Lord not to remember the sinnes of the forefathers to bring punishmēt vpō vs. It is a blinde collection whē any gather herby that we pray for the dead that their sinnes may be forgiuen them These then bée the blasphemies and heresies which you Master Barrow doo accuse the booke of to shew that you did not lye and slander but how well you haue acquit your selfe let all those iudge which haue any sobrietie And now touching this that you did affirme the best part of the booke to be but as a péece of swines flesh and abomination to the Lord you goe about to defend your wicked spéech by the abuse which I told you before could be none answer for the things are holy in themselues although coniurers and Papists abuse them neuer so much Touching the Lords Praier we deale about it in the questiō of read praier For the articles of the faith you wold know what profe by Scripture we can make for that blasphemous Article that Christ descended into hell Also in your other booke page 76. these be your words Their forged patcherie commonly called the Apostles Creede or Symbole Athanasius Creede the Nycen Creede Let the world iudge what cause you haue to glory in your sufferings and whether ye be not liker Rabsaka who boasted also that God sent him against Ierusalem then any of the holy Martyrs of Christ Is there any Christian eare but will abhorre this beastly spéech when you terme the Articles of our faith a forged patchery And doo you not I say euen as a very Rabsaka most wickedly reproach all Churches both of old and in these dayes Athanasius Créed which is the Nycen Créed is drawne from the word It is the summe of the most glorious faith concerning the blessed Trinitie and some other Articles which all true Churches and Christians haue euer professed and doo professe And for the Apostles Créede if it were not in the time of the Apostles yet was it presently after that confession or prosession of the faith which euery one of yeres made which was admitted to receaue the holy baptisme It is euery part drawne expressely but of the sacred writings of the Prophets and Apostles And for that one article of Christs descending into hell it is not blasphemous nor yet hath in it any error vnlesse it be misunderstoote The Papists are very grosse in it and fabulous touching his descending to fetch out the souies of the pacriarches Others doo hold that our Sauiour in soule after his passion descended into hell though to no such purpose this is not blasphemie nor heresie The place of Scripture which seemeth to warrant that his soule descended into hell is in Psalme 16. Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell neither shalt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption Scheol doth signifie both hell and the graue and in this place say they which hold that his soule descended it must néedes be taken for hell because the soule goeth not into the graue Yet because Nephesh may be diuersely taken as it is vsed sundrie times in Moses for the dead bodie as also that it dooth signifie the vitall spirit and so it is no absurditie to say after a manner of speech that the life is shut vp in the graue so long as the body remaineth there hereupon some doo expounde these words he descended into hell to be no more but thus hee went downe into the graue And whereas the order of the articles seemeth to ouerthrowe this exposition because it is said he was dead buried and descended into hell they expound this clause he was buried he was inbaulmed as it is said when the woman powred the precious oyntment vpon him that she did it to burie him Matth. 26. Nicodemus brought Mirre and Aloes this dressing of the dead body say they was of the Iewes called buriall and the putting into the graue descending into hell Others doo take it that descending into hell is meant that he remained in the state of the dead Others that in his soule while he was vpon the Crosse he suffered the torments of hell as it is most certaine he did Now Master Barrow seeing the words be in the Scripture thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell and the matter resteth onely vpon the exposition what immodest and intemporate heat or rather furiouse outrage is this to crie out of a blasphemous article and to terme the articles of our faith our forged patcherie Also for singing of Psalmes I will note here vnto the reader your foule prophane speeches in page 180. thus you write Heere would not bee forgotten also the sweete Psalmodicall harmonie of the Vultures Crowes Gleads Owles Geese of the Leopards Beares Wolues Dogs Foxes Swine Goates pardon mee for thus the holy Ghost termeth and likeneth the prophane multitudes assembled in the false Church all these together with one accord simphonie and harmonie sing some pleasant Ballad or else vnto Dauids melodious harpe some Psalme in rime I say not rithme now or meeter well concinnate to the eare though neuer a whit to the sence purpose or true vse of the Psalme before the sermon to stir vp the spirit of their worthy priest or preachers who being rapt and rauished with this harmony goes to his geere informe aboue said where his mouth distilles and his lippes droppe such old parables such premeditat and well studied and chosen sentences as shall displease no partie vnles he be of too suspitious a nature Your owne words Master Barrow which I haue set downe doo shew themselues so vngodly and prophane vnto euery Christian minde yea vnto euery one which hath but a sparke of humane ●●uility and modesty left in hun that I néede not to say much for albeit our Sauiour called the Scribes and Pharisies which were sworne enemies vnto the Gospell and sought by their counterfait holines to seduce others generations of vipers and serpents Herod that foxe and Saint Paule called the false Apostles dogs yet is it no excuse or colour for your prophane impiety against all degrees and sorts both of men and women which are no such enemies but loue and
haue this power whole and seuerall by it selfe I take it you shall neuer be able to prooue that it ought to be much lesse shall you be able to prooue them to bee no true Churches which haue not in euery seuerall congregation established the power of excommunication For touching excommunication there be Churches which are true Churches of Christ which haue it not nor iudge it needefull Master Beza in his booke against Erastus pag. 2. sayth that he was charged by some to esteeme them to be no Churches which wanted excommunication or such a Presbyterie which was vniustly layd to his charge as he sayth the perpetuall conuiction of him and those Churches did sufficiently witnes You haue more worke in hand here Master Barrow then you bee wate of For if you had proued that the Church of England hath no power to excommunicate yet there remayneth a further thing which is not so easie as you take it to bee conuinced namely that it is no true Church of Christ which hath no excommunication All Churches are against you in this poynt and the light of the truth will be as strong agaynst you as it hath beene agaynst the Annabaptists Here you make the chalenge anewe and say If I would vouchsafe to take mine aduersaries with me into the field and giue them leaue to bring and to vse their owne weapons I answere that for all your outcries yet there hath been no one weapon taken from ye nor yet cut shorter That speciall weapon which you now haue drawen and burnished wherein you repose your trust is this Where all the prophane and vngodly are receiued into and retayned in the Church as members thereof there cannot bee sayd the true established Church of Christ But in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes vngodly of the land were receiued into are retayned in their Church as members thereof Therefore the Church of England in this estate cannot be sayd the true established Church of Christ You doo here conclude a new question for there may bee a true Church of Christ and yet not in all things rightly or truly established Agayne there be foure terminie in this your Sylogisme because this clause all the prophane vngodly is taken more largely in the maior then it is in the minor or else your maior is false also the scriptures which you quote falsely applied It is certain that God did separate his Church from the Heathen Nations that did not call vpon his name Such were not compelled to enter But if you looke vpon the Church of Israel the Nation of the Iewes which had the couenant when they fell into Idolatry and horrible impietyes you shall see that all the godly Kings of Iuda that reformed and restored the true worship of God compelled all to the same Doo you reade that the Idolaters or their seede which still after a sorte professed the God of Abraham and had the seale of the couenant vpon them were cast foorth You may sée in the Prophet Sophonie that in the dayes of the godly King Iosias many of those Idolaters did turne but feynedly for feare of punishment and secretly worshipped Idoles The nation of England did professe Iesus Christ and were all sealed with the seale of the couenant but yet ouerwhelmed generally in Idolatry and many horrible sinnes Our Noble Quéene Elizabeth placed by God vpon the Regall throne compelleth them all being her subiects according to their vow in Baptisme to renounce Idolatry and to imbrace the holy fayth and Religion of Christ appoynting sharpe penaltyes for such as shall obstinately persist either in Idolatrie or other horrible sinnes Now tell me Master Barrow what doth she herein other then the godly kings of Iuda did She receiueth not in nor compelleth Turkes Iewes or heathen but onely such as are Christians by profession And therefore you may see that if you will haue your maior proposition agree with the Scriptures it must needes be taken more largely than your minor And thus you are come forth into the field with your choyce weapon which deceiuethye vtterly But yet here to make some face of true zeale you reckon vp a number of horrible sinnes Indeede God requireth that al his seruants should vtterly abhorre and condemne such vices and speak against them but he alloweth not any to take occasion thereby to condemne his Church Such vices abound but yet there are many thousands which cannot ●e charged with any one foule vice whose conuersation in the profession of the true fayth is hath been with much more sobrietie and modesty then yours Master Barrow vnlesse your time past haue beene better spent then the present And when God shall open your eyes his terror shall be vponye ye shall know that I haue not by the deuill blasphemed yee but shewed by Gods worde that you haue with horrible presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate and with most sauage crueltie sought to rend vp and to teare the Lordes tender plants In the next place commeth the Baptizing the Children of prophane men which professe Christ and remaine in the Church Here Master Barrow you are in a wonderfull displeasure and can not satisfie your selfe with all the varietie of odious tearmes which you doe euen fome out The heresie which I haue vttered about this matter is so foule as you take it that after many extreame wordes you say you may by the direct warrant of Gods word hold me and mine ordinary most heynous falsefiers and corrupters of the whole law and worde of God most blasphemous and peruitions false Prophets A man would thinke at the reading of these words that the whole Church were on fire especially if I should repeate but the one halfe of your speeches but that we know Master Barrow it is but your fashion If it please God he may giue you some spark of modestie But touching the matter it selfe I did affirme that the children of prophane men which remayn in the Church professing Christ whether they bee close hypoerites or openly wicked in conuersation do belong to the couenannt are to be baptized so that the Church take care for their instruction and education in the true fayth Your cauills here about verball confession which God alone can iudge about parish assemblies which are members of a Church though euery one by it selfe seuerally hath not the full power and so to becalled a Church about expresse contrariety error and sacriledge in my proposition as you say are not worth the mention Touching the Scriptures which I alleage to prooue that the interest in the couenant doth not depend vpon the syncere fayth or godlines of the next parents youcrie out of so many errors mischines and blasphemies that you doubt not as you say to pronounce and reiect these doctrines of this false Prophet most blasphemous and deuilish But now if it be true which I say and proue agaynst whom haue you powred foorth your poyson And what bring
you to disproue it But that then all the world is within the Church holy all being sprong within farre lesse then a thousand generations of many faithfull and lineally come from the Patriarch Noah And that then ought the Israelites vnder the lawe to haue circumcised all their captiue Cananites and heathen that came into their power Then ought the Church now to baptize al the seed euen of the most wicked and vngodly whether Turkes Papists Idolaters c. You are out of the way Master Barrow and the faster you runne the further for you should remember that I spake of the seede of such prophane men as remayne in the Church and professe Christ and are sealed with the seale of the Couenant Will you make no difference betweene those which were or are without the Church ●ncircumcised or vnbaptized not professing the God of Abraham or the faith of Christ and those which were or be in the Church circumcised or baptized professing the the God of Abraham and the faith of Christ The Cananites and other heathen if they forsooke false Gods and imbraced the religion of the true God were circumcised so may the Turks and heathen be baptized at this day But while they are without and blaspheme and renounce Christ what hath the Church to do with their children which are not vnder her gouernment and power to bring vp The Church is to take care that al those children may bee instructed in the faith and guided in the way of godlines which she admitteth vnto baptisme For the places of Scripture where I sayd that the couenant with Abraham was made thus I will bee thy God and the God of thy seede and that to a thousand generations Exod. 20. And that because of this S. Peter calleth all the Iewes in generall the children of the Prophets and of the couenant Act. 3. 25. and Paule Rom. 9. 4 For which respect they are called holy Rom. 11. And the childrē of Idolaters among them are called Gods children Ezech. 16. The whole nation of the Iewes a very fewe men excepted did at sundrie times very grieuously sinne agaynst the Lord and the greater part of those neuer returned by true repentance but yet remayned in the profession of the God of Abraham and were circumcised If the couenant had been disanulled to their seede how could Saint Peter say they were the children of the Couenant Or how could Saint Paule say that theirs was the adoption and the Couenant If none were outwardly to stand vnder the Couenant but the elect how should this haue been spoken Or if the Couenant had been disanulled by their fathers sinnes Unto this Master Barrow you haue made none answer at all But you take occasion at that which I alleage out of Exod. 20. to make some colour or shewe of matter and say that I wittingly suppresse the next words of the sentence which are these of them that loue me and keepe my commandements which shew to whom this couenant is made and belongeth and the condition on our part And you require that I should ●he● one plate through the whole Scripture where the Lords Couenant is made vnto vs without this condition and then you say I may peraduenture cléere my selfe and mine ordinarie for publishing this wicked and diuellish heresie so directly contrary to the whole Scriptures in more then a thousand places Thus it is your pleasure Master Barrow euen in your deepe ignorance and that in the grounds of Religion to impugne the stablenes of Gods couenant made vnto his people It is a thing indeed which any godly mind may with horror tremble at when with such furie you terme it a diuellish heresie which is indeed that doctrine of grace deliuered in the Scriptures whereby the glorie of the Lord is most highly magnified It is certayne that the Couenant or promise of God dooth not profite any vnlesse they receiue it as the holy Ghost speaketh mixed with faith Heb. 4. 2. Then where true faith is there is sanctification there is obedience according to the measure of that faith greater or lesse Hereupon it followeth that as God is become their God so they are become his people and this is required on our part But now to inferre vpon this that the stablenes of Gods couenant dependeth vpon this condition if we keepe his commandements and that a man yea a whole Church doth forfeit the couenant as your phrase is if they shewe rebellion is most wicked For what is more manifest then this that if it had been so the couenant had been forfeited almost vnto all Israel and that very often for they oftentimes rebelled agaynst God most grieuously and brake promise on their part The complaints of the Prophets are many sundrie Psalmes doo set it forth the booke of the Iudges declareth how oft they rebelled and fel vnto foule Idolatrie and how oft he plagued them and humbled them by deliuering them into the hands of heathen Kings You will say they rebelled but repented And in the dayes of euery godly Iudge and godly King were the visible Church But in the times of their defection when they committed Idolatrie you say they were not the visible Church Yea you alleage testimonies of Scripture to prooue that in their defection they were not the Lords people as Deuteronom 32. 19. Micha 2. 7 8 9 Amos. 8. 2. Ezech. 16. Alas Master Barrow would any man looke for such matter at their hands that had but euen read ouer the Byble It is declared by Moses that God chose them to be his people not for their owne righteousnes but of free mercie and made his couenant with them Likewise it is most certayne that hee continued his faith towards them not for that they kept couenant with him for they often rebelled but for his own names sake To say that they forfeited the Couenant by transgressing his commandements and recouered it agayne by repentance and so to be now out now in is that I may say no worse most foolishly spoken For they did not enter agayne into a couenant which was lost because they repented but contrariwise they repented because they were in the couenant That is because he had sworne vnto them to bee their God hee not onely brought them downe by afflictions chastising them as a father but gaue them the graces of repentance This is shewed Psalm 106. where the Prophet hauing set foorth their manifold rebellions and the plagues wherewith he plagued them he sayth When they were brought downe by affliction he looked to their distresse and heard their cry And remembred for them his couenant and repented for the multitude of his mercies The Lord sayth also He foreknewe them to be an hard people that their necke was as a barre of yron and their forehead of brasse and that they would deale vnfaithfully Esay 48. vers 4. 8. Yet he sayth I will be long suffering for my names sake and for my praise I will refraine mine anger towards
thee that I may not cut thee off vers 9. It were too long to repeate all the Scriptures where the Lord pronounceth that he chose them for his owne names sake that they dealt vnfaithfully and yet he kept them as his people and forgaue their iniquities euen for himselfe You will say that Gods couenant was to the elect among them but the rest were not vnder the couenant nor the visible Church This is your grieuous blindnes that you cannot see that many stand outwardly vnder the couenant and are the visible Church which yet receiue no benefite thereby being wicked euen voyd of faith And for this cause although the great swarme of the Israelites were wicked reprobates and as the Prophet sayth but a remnant saued yet for their outward profession the whole Nation was euer sayd to stand vnder the couenant Otherwise how could it be sayd That Christ came among his owne and his owne receiued him not Ioh. 1. How could these wicked infidels be called his owne in any other respect but that they stood outwardly vnder the couenant and were the visible Church And therefore when the bodie of that people should stand no longer vnder the couenant to be the visible Church but as our Sauiour sayth the kingdome of God should be taken from them Math. 21. The Lord to shew that he had still kept his couenant with them euen vntill that time in which they now breake off themselues and that hee had giuen their mother no bill of diuorse asketh where the bill of diuorse of their mother is by which he had put her away Esay 50. vers 1. The tenne Tribes which fell from the house of Dauid and worshipped Idols were yet in some sort euen the whole bodie of them vnder the Couenant and were so farre the visible Church for otherwise how should the Lord bee called their God For when Benhadab made warre agaynst Achab and tooke the foyle and his seruants counselled him to enterprise the warre agayne and to fight with them in the valleyes saying That the God of Israel was the God of the mountaines the Lord tooke it agaynst himselfe and gaue them the ouerthrow the second time 1. King 20. Achazias K. of Israel being sicke vpon a fall he had taken sent his messengers to enquire of Baalzebub the God of Ekron Elias the Prophet is sent to meete them and to say Is it not because there is no God in Israel that you goe to enquire of Baalzebub the God of Ekron 2. King 1. Now for the places which you alleage that they became not his people you doo but peruert them For the song Deuteron 32. vers 5. If you will vnderstand it so as you here apply it how should they after bee called his people and his seruants in the same song vers 36. The breuitie and the placing of the words in that sentence doo make it darke This is the sense That the peruerse generation corrupt themselues by their owne vice which is not of his children For the holines of Gods children is from him but when they transgresse and corrupt themselues it is from their owne vice And hee calleth all the whole people his sonnes and daughters not in respect of some former estate as you vainly imagine seeing that very fewe of them were his sonnes and daughters indeede in their best estate but in respect that they stood outwardly vnder his couenant and professed his name And that the Lord sayth Yesterday which was my people is risen as an enemie Mich. 2. vers 8. is not to shewe that they were now quite remooued and cast off by the Lord from being vnder his couenant though the multitude were the Church but in name but their hostilitie among themselues both in Iuda and Israel The ende which God sayd was come to his people Amos. 8. is meant of their subuersion and captiuitie Will you say that they were neuer after nor no longer Gods people If you dare not say this why doo you alleage that place You would haue me shewe some place in the Scriptures where God maketh his couenaut without this condition that they shall bee his people and obey him That is not the question Master Barrow but this whether when men breake couenant and promise with God by disobeying him whose couenant yet they chalenge his couenant be broken and abrogated towards them And for this I shewed you the plaine Scripture Psalm 89. where the Lord saith If they should for sake his law he would visite their offences or defections with the rod but he will not disanull his mercie towards them nor falsifie his fayth That he will not prophane his couenaunt nor alter the thing which is gone out of his lippes Master Barrow what can be more expresse then this to shew the stablenes of Gods souenant dependeth not vpon our obedience or vpon that condition which you speake of and say the couenant standeth no longer then they stand obedient Why did you not answere this place but require still to haue that shewed which is playnly shewed you before Solomon on his part brake couenant with God will you say he did forfeyte the couenant I conclude therfore with the saying of Saynt Paul where hee speaketh of the Iewes what preferment they had aboue other What if some of them were vnfaythfull shall their vnbeliefe make the fayth of God of none effect God for bid Yea let God be true and euery man a lyer Rom. 4. Cease therefore Master Barrow to hang the stablenes of Gods couenant vpon the obedience of man and do not so peruersly reason against the truth in affirming that the couenant of God was disanulled toward the Iewes not to stand as the visible Church before such time as they had reiected Christ The next thing is that I say eyther wee are within the couenant from our Aucestors and haue the seale thereof euen Baptisme or else your selues are without Baptisme and so must either with the Catabaptists rebaptize or else holde the couenant without a seale Neyther of these you will doo and yet stand in it that we haue no true Church nor true Sacraments This therefore is your answere The Israelites in their Schisme and the Iewes in their Apostasie still had and vsed Circumcision This Circumcision was no true Sacrament vnto them neither sealed the Lords couenant vnto them in that estate Yet was this circumcision true Circumcision concerning the outward cutting and was vpon their repentance and returne neither defaced nor reiterate but they were restored to the Temple and receiued to the pasouer In like manner in this generall Apostasie and defection from the Gospell the Baptisme continued in these Apostaticall and false Churches cannot in this estate thus administred be sayd a true Sacrament or seale of Gods couenant vnto them Yet concerning the outward washing it is true Baptisme the outward action neede not and ought not to bee againe repeated after the abuse thereof in the false Church is purged away