must first bee assured that it is the Bryde which speaketh and not a masked Harlot vnder that name As for your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie where-vpon by accusing Scripture you would build an excuse of seeking some other Rule it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD and is also in it selfe sophisticall It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD in that CHRIST commanding to search Scripture for a cleare witnessing of Him the holie Ghost affirming by Peter that the word of Scripture is a sure and shyning word by Paul that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse to everie good worke and exhorting all men praysing in all men the diligent reading and meditation there-of there-by to discerne spirites and to prooue what is propounded vnto them that David al-most all-where speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse and power there-of as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes Yet some of your men Philomathes are not ashamed disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule and a Nose of Waxe as if the Almightie and only wyse GOD had not eyther wysely anough or lovinglie provyded for the direction of His House and that men forsooth will or can finde out a more cleare and certayne way But what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture or howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men might appeare to make it by their diversitie of Interpretations yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to that our LORD hath left it vs for a Lanterne to our Feete and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth studying therefore with all humilitie cleannesse of heart and earnest prayer to attayne the knowledge there-of and not proudlie and rebelliouslie to take such counsell as did Israell in the Wildernesse Wee know not what is become of this Moses make vs therefore gods to goe before vs. The advyse of Augustine is much more both sound and sober than is that of your Church-men That in reading of Scripture if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense and meaning of the place at least let vs not expound that place of Scripture in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth So shall wee bee lyke to a man who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way yet hee wandreth in the Fields leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee I affirmed Philomathes that your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie was also Sophisticall and thus I cleare it All reason of obscuritie must bee eyther in the matter it selfe or in the manner of delyverie or in the weaknesse of their perception to whome it is delyvered Of divine thinges wee acknowledge that how-so-ever for most reall and constant existence they bee of all thinges the most certayne yet that for their retyred eminencie to all creatures of all thinges the most obscure But for the manner of deliverie as GOD in holie Scripture hath revealed them we affirme that all the wisdome and eloquence of all creatures even in a conceived matter could never haue found out so playne a manner or so farre and lovinglie haue attempered it to the capacitie of man as in so high mysteries and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth was possible And yet how-so-ever they bee thus delivered wee acknowledge that no naturall man and naturall onlie is capable of them For they are spirituallie discerned But the spirituall man by the Spirit of GOD in him will discerne the things of GOD. To reason then from the naturall obscuritie or retyred eminencie of the matter to the manner of deliverie or from the weaknesse of man's perception to conclude of the manner of deliverie or from the perception of the naturall man to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication We are bolde to say with the holie Ghost That how-so-ever to most part of men the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables that hearing they may heare and not vnderstand and seeing they may see and not perceiue Yet That Who-so-ever doeth the will of the FATHER they will knowe the Doctrine whether it bee of GOD or whether men speake of them-selues That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe knowe His Voyce and knowe the voyce of a Stranger Wee avouch That the wordes of Wisdome are all playne to him that will vnderstand and straight to him that will finde Knowledge That Scorner seeketh Wisdome and findeth it not but Knowledge is easie to him that will vnderstand So as if the Trueth bee hid it is hid to them whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out and whom GOD justlie eyther for misregard or pryde of mynde hath given over to the efficacie of Errour to groape even at noone day Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection of diversitie of Interpretation against this for how-so-ever manie particular places in Scripture appeare still difficill and doubtfull to vs which but know in part and prophesie in part yet wee affirme with Augustine That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture are all things to bee found which contayne Fayth and Rules of living and that nothing almost is ripped out of the most obscure parts which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken Philomathes To grant you even all that you haue sayde either of the plainnesse or plentifulâ—…esse of holie Scripture yet what shall you gaine there-by against our Questioner or how shall you justifie the imputations of want of Care Skill or Conscience layde on him by you seeing both our Church confesseth that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church and such Notes as are heere brought by our man hee prooveth them all from Scripture Eubulus How eyther proper or pertinent your Poet's Markes are which hee bringeth and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture or other-wayes wee shall see GOD willing in the particular examination of each where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe and that carelessie skillessie or fraudfullie hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke to seduce the simple with Topicall showes You say your Church acknowledgeth that by Scripture the true Marks of the Church are knowne But Philomathes they fall never to say so but when they are reduced to such straits as eyther they must say it or bee snared For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne which can so little consist with this which you haue now granted as the one evidentlie over-throweth the other For doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage as that therefore onlie you are sure such such to be canonicke Scriptures because the Church hath so determined Thus monstrouslie you make one and the same to bee both the Mother and the Daughter and of one Philomathes But thus you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs who affirmeth that hee would not belieue Scripture if the authoritie of the Churh did
true Church and the Synagogue of Satan calling themselues Iewes and yet are not And who for concluding of this would bring the common notes of that hee were a doting Divine and a no lesse ridiculous Logician than hee who for discerning a man from a beast would bring the common properties of a living creature for how-so-ever the common notes of Christians good or bad of Orthodox or Heretickes of CHRIST or Antichrist will distinguish the common bodie in which all these are from Forraigners yet to discerne betwixt the true bodie and the inherent evill betwixt lawfull and adulterous worship betwixt the Bryde and the pretending Whoore both of them in though not both of the bodie there is none other sure note or marke of discretion but the Scriptures onlie When you shall see sayeth Chrysostome vngodlie Heresie which iâ—… the Armie of Antichrist standing in the holie places of the Church then let them who are in Iudea flee to the Mountainest that is they who are of Christianitie dresse them-selues to the Scriptures because from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie neyther anie other refuge for Christians willing to know the veritie of the Fayth but the divine Scriptures And in that same place Before manie wayes were shewed which was the Church of CHRIST but now no manner of way hut by the Scriptures For sayeth the same Chrysostome or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vpon Matthew if men looke to ought else they shall stumble and perish not vnderstanding which is the true Church and shall fall there-by in the abhomination of desolation which standeth in the holie places of the Church Wee thinke it not equitable sayth Basilius that such custome of speach as hath taken place with them should bee helde for a Law and Canon of right Doctrine for if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine wee might also imitate them heere-in Let vs stand therefore to the decision of Scripture inspyred from GOD and with whome are found heades of Doctrine consonant to the divine Oracles let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vnto them Non oportet sayeth Ireneus quaerere apud alios veritatem cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis that is Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where seeing the Apostles haue most plentifullie as in a rich Store-house put together all thinges that belong to Trueth Non haec autilla sayeth Augustine alteri parti suspecta objiciantur sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae that is Let not such things bee objected as are suspected of eyther partie but let the common Armour the Scriptures bee taken I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse Philomathes in making so great a Question how Trueth and the true Church may bee discerned from Lies and hereticall companies bewrayeth evidentlie what vpright affection hee hath eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe or to leade others there-in Philomathes When all that you haue sayde is granted so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe which heare CHRIST His voyce but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the holie Scriptures yet the Question remaineth vnsolved For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them And this was not obscurelie implyed in the Question in that all rehearse the common Creede so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you which will rid the Debate Eubulus To this I answere First al-be-it all pretende Scripture yet all pretende not Scripture onlie which both by Scripture and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie I haue prooved in the Case heere questioned to bee the onelie Rule for your Church of Rome joyneth and equalleth with Scripture her owne Canons and Traditions and there-by declareth evidentlie all her worship to bee vaine Hoc nimis doleo sayeth Augustine quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt minus curantur tam multis praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit that is I much lament for that manie thinges which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written are little regarded and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions as he is more grievouslie punished who neglecteth those humane Traditions than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation for those small beginnings in comparison which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie at that time not so farre as yet advanced had come to what had beene the measure of his griefe if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie Eriphilus What Eubulus will you make vs therefore to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S because wee heare the voyce of the Church Is not the voyce of the Church CHRIST'S owne voyce sayeth Hee not in Scripture Hee who heareth you heareth Mee and bee who despyseth you despyseth Mee Eubulus Too great heate Eriphilus maketh you to over-reach your selfe and so to stumble both in Logicke and in Divinitie Your Errour in Logicke is that you take that for an Argument which is the verie Poynt in Question All our Dispute is what Companie of so manie Acclaimers is the true Church of CHRIST In this Question proponed to vs by your Poët wee are come thus farre That who heare CHRIST'S voyce and His voyce onlie Wee haue layde also this ground That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce Vpon which ground I challenged your Church as adding to her owne Now here for your defence that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce and that even by Scripture you assume that you are the Church and where the Sheepe are to bee tryed by the voyce which they doe heare you will therefore justifie the voyce because you forsooth doe heare it And by such Logicke as this what may you not conclude You might with more credite tell vs in plaine Tearmes That you will not haue it put in question but that you are the Church than appeare to put that poynt in tryall and incontinent to take it for a Principle which is the verie Poynt controverted Now as this is your fault in Logicke and that exceeding chyldish so in Divinitie you misse and more dangerouslie Because the LORD affirmeth That who heareth the Church heareth Him and who despyseth them despyseth Him if Pastours vnder the pretext of this Power should presume absolutelie to impose on Consciences what they please binding Christians indifferentlie without proving to admit all it were an impudent yea an impious vsurpation For these speaches of CHRIST haue alwayes this implyed Condition That Pastours speake nothing but the wordes of the Great Shepheard For the words of
not mooue him Eubulus You deceiue Philomathes by concluding Theticallie and absolutelie vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth and so you vnskilfullie confound diverse Cases For first inducing of an Infidell to belieue Scripture the Authoritie of the Church is a great Motiue or rather as Augustine calleth it a Commotiue and Opportanum inquirendi exordium that is A commodious entrie to inquire by Now from this speciall Case and qualitie of Case to inferre That the man by this Commotiue first induced had still there-after no other or greater Warrand for his Beliefe of Scripture but the Authoritie of the Church which first induced him it were no better Logicke than to conclude of the Samaritanes That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth than the Report of their Woman from the Well The Authoritie of the Church may and will often induce an Infidell to reverence and belieue Scripture but so as having come thus farte then in the communitie of that Church to discerne lawfull from vnlawfull worship and orthodox from hereticall professours the Scriptures onlie must haue place as in a case where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie were extreamlie ridiculous it beeing the verie point in question what companie is the Church And I shewed you before how your men are alwayes deceived or at least labour to deceiue others by confounding the case of the Church considered absolutelie and in relation to Forraigners and Infidels and reasoning from it so considered to the decyding of debate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church In the first the common notes are discretiue and the common authoritie a commotiue to induce but in the other there is no manner of way but the Scriptures as out of the Fathers I haue cleared And now â—…lomathes to returne to our poynâ—… whence this your â—…hreedbare Objection from Augustine hath driven â—…ee I pray you if your men are forced to confesse That the Markes of the Church are knowne by Scripture why flee they from having all both their Doctrine and Dealing examined by that same Rule What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this to â—…ject Scripture in the particular tryall of everie Article of Fayth and yet for a few wrested and pervâ—…ed Sentences where-by to proue some bastard and begâ—…yling Notes therefore impudentlie to all eadge That they for sooth doe cleare their Church by Scripture As if in all Scripture the holie Ghost had but given some Notes of a Companie where to seeke our Fayth and noâ—… clearlie set downe the Fayth which wee haue to holde and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto Your Cardinall Bellarmine in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers nearlie pintching him namelie of Augustine is forced to flee to this which you also 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge That the Scripture indeede teacheth what are the Notes of the Church And I haue verilie reason to thanke both you and him for it If as I presume of you so hee also had eyther willinglie or ingenuouslie yeelded it And though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of for the cleare advantage I haue in it to conclude agaâ—…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation I am sure that 〈◊〉 â—…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—… Schoâ—…Man will not agaynst Naâ—…re â—…nd all Schooles affirme of GOD the most perfect Doctour Thâ—… Hee 〈◊〉 Obseuruâ—… pâ—…r obscurius that which is obscure by anie thing which is more obscure For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus that is of thinges which are by nature more notore than are those things which they are brought to notifie Thus then I conclude vpon your owne Position That which cleareth anie thing must it selfe be more cleare But the Scripture cleareth which are the Notes of the Church There-fore as the Notes where-by the Church is knowne must bee more cleare than the Church which is knowne by them So the Scripture which teacheth those Notes must bee more cleare than both The Scripture which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe truelie taught and reverentlie received is the onlie sure and evident Ensigne of the House and Flocke And who is it that knoweth not this That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours and not the Colours by the Companie Now consider Philomathes whether your mens Objections Of Scriptures obscuritie doe fall and in what vprightnesse they are propounded And whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for or rather fraudfullie to divert the Simple from the onelie Light which leadeth to it And some of your owne Wryters convinced by cleare Trueth are forced to confesse what the more impudent sort so much oppugne Andreas Fricius thus speaketh DEVS Author est Verbi Sui quod tanti facit ut Coelum Terra facilius transitura sint quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum qui authoritatem tribuit qui illud in dignitatem vindicat qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum Testimonium quidem Ecclesia Spiritu DEI affâ—…ata dare potest Verbo Doctrinae hanc scilicet quam â—…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus acâ—…pisset non aliâ—…m esse à DEO prolitam Authoritatem verâ—… Illi â—…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum qui est Author illius Illustrator Defensor Propugâ—…ator Agayne the same Author Lib. 4. de Ecclesia Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam Verbum Fundamentum est Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum Gabriel Biel Lib. 3. Sentent Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex natura â—…ei sunt immutabiles immutabiliter verae Hosius in Confess Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis et nos docentis So as Philomathes if you will not belieue vs yet your owne men may tell you Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe and would draw others with him in Darknesse Philadelphus Hee will haue vs to seeke after the Church as Children at Chacke-blynd-man groape after their Fellowes For first hee would picke out our Eyes or syle vs from seeing and then forsooth set vs a-searching But they who doe evill hate the Light and the Church of Rome had rather choose That this Debate were never decided than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought where-by they might bee found out who they are Through open Streete with lighted Lampe in hand A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone Where-of when one the Motiue did demand His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone 'Mongst Men more mad than Mamacks by the Moone I search sayde hee if I can finde one wyse Asse th' other sayde thyne Head is out of tune Canst thou discerne one though thou sawst him thryse But more your man is
this Argument as I vprightlie protest in the Presence of HIM Whome I serue in the GOSPELL of HIS Sonne That laying aside the verie selfe cleare and infallible Groundes of Trueth delivered in Scripture where-vpon agaynst all eyther Probabilities or Praesumptions our Fayth may and must solidlie relye there is no Reason in the Worlde so effectuall to assure my Soule of the Veritie of our Religion and that wee are of CHRIST His true Church as are the verie chiefe thinges which our Adversaries doe object agaynst vs. Neyther anie so pregnant a Motiue to perswade mee laying aside the consideration of their playne haereticall Opinions that they are the Antichristian Bodie as even those things where-in they doe chiefelie and most insolentlie glorie Which to cleare vnto you at such length and in such evidence as I well could and the Matter al-so requyreth it were a longer Speach than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth vs. But if you list to take paynes you may reade what I haue at more length written heereof in my DISPVTATIONS FOR OVR CALLINGES and in my COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION VVhich with the little that I haue nowe sayde when you haue more deeplie considered then if you remayne yet vnsatisfyed how-so-ever I neyther loue to contende vvith the Humourous nor to multiplye Babling vpon Blockes yet I vvill at your Desyre not sticke to take more paynes vpon your Ingenuitie Philomathes I will GOD willing reade those Bookes where-vnto you haue sharpened mine Appetite by that which you haue nowe spoken having there-by so filled mine Heart with great Doubts of such things as I accounted inexpugnable poynts that I can not choose but to insist till I bee setled as it shall please GOD to informe me in that which is the right Way of His Feare Philadelphus How invisible so-ever wee bee Eriphilus and how short so-ever you bee of sight yet I hope you may now perceiue your owne foyle in the chiefe Flowre of your Forces so as Eubulus hath not as you presumed evanished in Invisibilitie but hath made all your long and vaynlie vaunted of Visibilitie to vanish in a vayne Smoake What 's visible but there-to Visibilitie In common doth though not a-lyke conveane Why should the Bryde without all Probabilitie Visible hers then singularlie wiene Thinges visible attour are not aye seene And thinges ev'n seene yet will escape Perception Of lightned Men and what perceived beene Mules agaynst that will madlie make Exception The Church was aye seene visible perceived Of cleare but no of rakie Eyes that raved Philomathes Whether wee haue anie such Foyle as you alleadge or you such Victorie as you presume Philadelphus you are al-wayes readie to sing your owne Triumph But now al-be-it wee haue indeede al-readie passed thorow these Markes where-in wee esteeme our selues strongest and that Eubulus hath I must confesse answered more than I exspected yet I pray you let vs heare what he hath to say agaynst the rest The next Marke is VNITIE and thus our Poet speaketh of it CHAPTER VI. UNITIE THis is another Marke truelie The Church must haue VNITIE As our Saviour hath fore-tolde One Shepheard and one Sheep-folde One is my Spouse one is my Loue One is my Darling and my Doue This is His House and at some-tyme Hee doth resemble it to a Vine HIS Father is the Husband-man A Branch is everie Christian. This is HIS Bodie mysticall The which HEE doth HIS Kingdome call Where-of Saynct Peter had the Keyes And his Successours haue all-wayes This is the Pillar and the Ground Where-in all Trueth is to bee found So lyke-wyse Saynct Paul sayeth One Baptisme and one Fayth And one LORD IESU Haue no Dissention amongst you Shew mee anie Companie That in all Poyntes doe agree Except the Holie Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Eubulus That which as I thinke I haue evinced of all your Man 's former Marks I affirme of this also That it is impertinentlie yea falselie produced for a proper Marke of the Church in so farre as it is a common condition of manie thinges yea all thinges that are hoc ipso quod sunt anum sunt even in that they are they are in that same one as all Schooles acknowledge The Devils are vnited for Satan's Kingdome is not divided against it selfe And Briggands banded to robbe and sheede Blood are one So as still you see that your Man's mayne Proposition of his mayne Argument is vayne and sophisticall Neyther will VNITIE in all poynts ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST than of the Antichristian bodie except VNITIE in all poynts be modified and of an indefinite VNITIE it be defined an VNITIE in all poynts of Trueth To which only demonstratiue Marke as I haue shewed of all the former so this of VNITIE must bee reduced also if there-on you would builde anie sure Conclusion For of the Antichristian Companie the holie Ghost hath in playne Tearmes fore-tolde These haue one mynde and shall giue their power and authoritie to the Beast and a little after For GOD hath put in their Hearts to fulfill his will and to doe with one consent for to giue their Kingdomes to the Beast vntill the wordes of GOD bee fulfilled And this is indeede that VNITIE where-of your Men so much glorie even a Conspiracie in Errour and no true VNITIE in Trueth as their manifolde and shamelesse Shiftings in a cleare evidence of a selfe-accusing-guiltinesse from subduing their doctrine to just examination by Scripture the sole Rule of Veritie make more than manifest Now Satan never yet envyed VNITIE in Errour or ZEALE in Superstition Philomathes Well to let this goe with you of VNITIE which you haue indeede evinced of the former that it is no proper Marke yet as I sayde and you also admitted of the others so you can not denye of VNITIE but that it is a true Attribute of the Church and that therefore our Man's Argument for the Church of Rome concludeth verie clearlie thus The Church of CHRIST must bee a Companie keeping Vnitie in all Poynts But onlie of all Companies the Church of Rome keepeth Vnitie in all Poynts There-fore the Church of Rome is the onelie true Church of CHRIST Eubulus I will not quarrell the forme of your Syllogisme for that your Assumption hath the nature of a negatiue Position I say your Proposition is sophisticall and your Assumption shameleslie false where-by your Conclusion commeth to nought As for the Proposition though you shold modifie your indefinite all Poynts to definitlie all Poynts of Trueth yet hath it in-folded a deepe Deceit For if it bee vnderstood of All Poyntes of Trueth so absolutelie as who keepe not Vnitie in all and everie poynt there-of bee excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church then is your Proposition perniciouslie false And your Man would but frauduleâ—…tlie put foorth a bloodie Table of Proscription where-by cruellie to forfault manie good Christian and Church from the Communion of the Bodie
great Citie which spirituallie is called Sodome and Aegypt and then the VVhoore was drunken with the Blood of Saynctes and the Beast became whollie of the Dragon's Colour Nowe where vpon this That no opposition was made by them your Man concludeth That there-fore none at all were I pray you Philomathes what kynde of Logicke doe you account it Because in Spayne and Italie no open opposition is made to Poperie are there there-fore no Protestant eyther Pastours or Professours in those partes The future Ages might perhaps bee induced to thinke so because that so the Storie of the Tyme may carrie no-thing beeing recorded but what in common obtayneth in the Tyme But wee who nowe liue would laugh him to heading as an impudent or senselesse Liar who would but denye that even in Rome are hundreths who holde the Pope to bee Antichrist And howe great encowragement so-ever our too great Lenitie giveth them of kything yet would they bee contented that their numbers amongst vs were esteemed but according to their open and advowed opposition When the golden Calfe was set vp in the Wildernesse and that by so common an Apostasie as that Aaron was carryed away with the violent Streame of that Evill it might appeare that none had beene there for the LORD or free of that common Guiltinesse and yet thousands did kythe in the convenient tyme of challenge Were there none true eyther Prophets or Professours in Israel the yeares of Elias lurking And yet who spake publicklie for the Trueth Did not even Elias thinke that all were gone when yet there were an hundreth Prophets in one Caue and seaven thousand true Professours in one and the same Kingdome Shall Tolleration speciallie in perilous tymes conclude approbation of what is tollerated in all the Tolleraters there-of Doeth not Augustine acknowledge in his tyme where-in the Mysterie of Iniquitie was not so farre advanced but that Trueth still obtayned some place in common that for regarde of the CHVRCHES peace they were compelled to tollerate manie thinges which other-wayes they vtterlie mislyked Attour in your Man's Objection is another ridiculous Fallacie by confounding the diverse and distinct tymes and accordinglie the diverse and distinct degrees of growth of that Apostasie in the course of tyme and not distinguishing accordinglie the diverse sortes and degrees of Opponers and of opposition therevnto No Age since the Apostolicke tymes wanted its owne opposition and Opponers according to the degree of Evill all-though they came not to that last and highest degree to which the open discoverie of the Evill in the toppe of all importable and vncurable Impietie did force Men. Loue is ever loath to cast off till all hope bee past And sober Men some-tymes in a laudable judgement some-tymes agayne in weaknesse will even choose often in a prevayling Iniquitie rather to lurke and keepe themselues cleane than with perilous Contestation eyther to disturbe the CHVRCHES Peace or object them-selues to desperate Daungers Which not-with-standing when they perceiue that vvithout playne perill of all Christianitie and imputation to them-selues of betraying the Gospell Peace can no more bee keeped will then rather contest with all hazard than tollerate a clearlie-discovered and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischiefe Shall a Thiefe bee counted no Thiefe but from the tyme of his open Endytement Or shall the first beginninges of injurious Vsurpation on the one part and an vndoubted and cleare Right on the other be reckoned onlie from the first publick poynts of Litiscontestation A Man disposed to Peace will long beare and patientlie expect Reparation of Wronges and even comport with manie injurious Encroachmentes vpon hope that Reason and gentle Admonition will bring the Partie to doe him measure VVho not-with-standing at last perceiving his Adversaries waywardnesse and daylie progresse in wrong doing will then intende playne Action agaynst him for his Right Nowe shall the vsurping and injurious Partie haue in this anie reason where-by eyther to justifie him-selfe or eschew Reparation of all his by-gone Wronges and vsurpation because they were never till then challenged in that manner and degree You may see more heere-of in my TREATISE of our CALLINGES and COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION Philomathes Well let vs goe on Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle Eubulus No but if it had what should haue followed there-vpon vnto the Church more than vpon the fall of Iudas What a ridiculous Question is this as if on the standing or falling of anie one Man or what-so-ever number of Men did hang the fall or stabilitie of the Church which is builded neyther on Man nor Men but on that immooueable Rocke which can not fall Yet your Bellarmine confesseth That though the Pope should fall away from Trueth yet the Church should not there-fore fayle Philomathes You who are so quicke a Carper of Aequivocations fall now to the same Play which you reprooue so often in our Poet. For by Peter's Fayth hee doeth not meane that Spirituall Vertue where-with Peter was endewed there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation as you would perhaps descrybe it but that Doctrine of Fayth which Peter professed and taught Eubulus Then Philomathes the playing with Aequivocations shal be still your Poet's part for the Lord prayed for the stabilitie of Peter's particular fayth where-of Satan sought to sift him which remayning steadfast was his Victorie in that his Temptation as I haue before signified And if your Man will haue it permitted vnto him by Poeticall Licence agaynst the LORD'S mynde to wrest Scripture and to intitle thus the Doctrine of Fayth yet why is it called Peter's faith more than am 's or Iohn's And why would not your Poet rather according to Scripture speach cal it the Faith of our LORD IESVS CHRIST But in what-so-ever sense giving him that the Fall or Standing of the Church had depended whollie on the fayling or stabilitie of Peter's Fayth could that Fayth bee no other-wayes preserved but in the Church of Rome And shall the fall of Rome conclude that Peter's Fayth and consequentlie CHRIST'S Church is fallen To make this Conclusion infallible your Man must bring a better Argument than a vayne vaunt of a bare personall Succession while in the tyme they are fallen away from Peter's Fayth to the fayth of Simon Magus Philomathes Did the Gates of Hell prevayle Eubulus No but they did so farre assayle and with such successe in GOD His just judgement and wyse permisssion as Satan obtayned a Throne even in the Temple of GOD. Philomathes Did the Salt lose its Savour Eubulus It did so farre lose its Savour in common and such as should haue beene the Salt of the Earth became so vnsavourie that they could serue for nothing but to bee cast out and trodden vnder foot Cast out the Court which is with-out the Temple and mete it not c. yet ever still the LORD had Ministers so seasoned with the Spirit of Light and Grace as they were al-wayes Candle-stickes and Oliues to
you must answere to these Questions Eubulus By a Sonnet one may verie convenientlie giue sentence of a Song and Philadelpbus will but let you see Eriphilus that wee are not so farre borne in despite of all the Muses but that wee could render you as compact Verses as anie your proper Ballad hath in it Yet let it bee as you desire wee will leaue Sonnets a little and come to Syllogismes Philomathes reade on Philomathes Gladlie Thus then hee beginneth I pray thee Protestant beare with mee To aske thee Questions two or three And if an answere thou canst make More of thy counsell I will take Manie and sundrie Sects appeare Now in the Worlde farre and neare The Protestant the Puritane The Calvinist the Zvvingliane The Brovvnists and the Fam'lie of Loue And manie moe which I can prooue And the Romane Fayth truelie Which you doe call Papistrie All these in verie deede Rehearse all Articles in the Creede And ev'rie one of them sayth That their's is the Catholicke Fayth How should I amongst all these Know the Trueth from feigned Lies For ev'rie one confesse IESU Saying that their Faith is true But this is it that I doe seeke To know the Church Catholicke The Communion or the companie Of bolie Men in vnitie Eubulus This hath beene the Question which in all times perverse and ignorant men haue pretended for them as is cleare by these wordes of Chrysostome Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth I would bee a Christian but I know not to whom I should cleane Manie Debates are amongst you I know not what Doctrine to choose seeing on both sides they pretende Scripture Answere him This maketh much for vs For if wee did say that our Fayth were grounded vpon naturall reasons thou hadst reason to bee troubled but when wee betake vs to the Scriptures which are playne and true thou mayest easilie discerne If anie man agree with Them hee is a Christian and who so oppugneth Them hee is farre from this Rule This same Chrysostome in 2. ad Thessal 2. All things are cleare and playne in divine Scriptures what-so-ever thinges are necessarie are manifest in them Agayne the same Chrysostome in Ioann cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures leade vs to GOD and open to vs the knowledge of Him they both make and keepe the Sheepe neyther suffer they Wolâ—…es to breake in For as a most strong Doore they debarre Heretickes and place the Godlie in suretie Neyther so beeing wee bee willing shall they ever suffer vs to fall away in Errour Now al-be-it I well might for all answere oppose to your Poet these Passages yet lest you complayne Philomathes that I passe him too slenderlie I take vp the summe of your Man his mayne Question to bee this Amongst so manie diverse Sects all rehearsing the common Creed and each acclayming the Title of the Church hovve and by what Marks we may discerne the true Church of CHRIST from such as falselie doe vsurpe that Title Philomathes You haue exceeding well taken vp the state of the Question And I pray you is it not a necessarie Question and worthie of a carefull consideration Eubulus Yea verilie but in proponing where-of and in answering there-to your Questioneâ—… bewrayeth either want of Care or want of Skill or which is worse want of Conscience For if hee could prooue moe Sectes than hee proponeth as both hee professeth and I confesse hee might why would hee not rather produce them than for malicious vp-making of a number where no number is make them diverse who are but one For everie difference of Opinion maketh not a diverse Sect much lesse doe diverse names of men who disagree in no materiall point Philadelphus You miss-take the matter Eubulus it is not maliciouslie done of him but for Metres sake to make vp his Verses which other-wayes would not haue runne well Eubulus Well this is his least al-be-it even a lourd-Errour But next Philomathes for resolution of his Question if hee had not willinglie set him-selfe to wander out of a right and plaine way so to draw others after him in the darke Mist of drumblie Disputations hee might haue taken the onlie sure and infallible Marke from CHRIST His owne Mouth Who as hee is the onelie LORD of the House great Shepheard of the Sheepe and Bridegroome of the Bryde so can Hee best of anie leade vs to know them rightlie Philomathes That must bee of all other the most certaine Note and I long to heare it Eubulus CHRIST giveth His Sheepe this Marke That they know the voyce of the great Shepheard and follow it and that they will not follow the voyce of a Stranger for they know it not Where-by that is vndoubtedlie the true Church where the voyce of CHRIST and His voyce onelie is purelie preached and religiouslie received If anie man loue Mee bee will keepe My Word and My Father will loue him and Wee will come to him and will dwell with him Hee that loveth Mee not keepeth not My Wordes c. Philomathes This is most true but the Question remaineth still as doubtfull as before for what-so-ever Companie doeth acclaime to it selfe the Title of the Church they no lesse boldlie affirme that they doe heare the voyce of CHRIST so as you haue but cast vs in a new dispute what iâ—… CHRIST His voyce which his true Sheepe doe heare and by hearing where-of they may bee discerned to bee of His Sheepe-folde Eubulus Neyther CHRIST nor His Apostles nor the succeeding Orthodox Fathers haue left place to make question heere-of to anie who wilfullie winketh not for Hee hath left vs His holie Scriptures and commandeth to search them for a Witnesse of Him Now the way to know Him and to know His true Church which is his fulnesse must of necessitie bee one More-over that which maketh the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke must make him wise to discerne the true Church also But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke therefore they make him wise to discerne the true Church also So then the Scriptures are CHRIST His voyce and they onlie are now to bee helde for His voyce for In vaine doe men worship sayeth the LORD teaching for Doctrines the Traditions of men And when-so-ever anie Church falleth to heare anie other Voyce or follow anie other Speaker then Shee looketh aside to the Flockes of his Companions and of a faithfull Citie beginneth to become an Harlor And as Ierome pertinentlie speaketh Egredietur è finibus suis Shee transgresseth her owne Limits Your men Philomathes darken all disputation by deceit of Aequivocations and confounding of distinct Considerations and Cases It is a much different thing to discerne the Church of CHRIST in common from Infidels Forraigners And againe in that communitie of the Church to discerne betwixt the true worshippers and the false betwixt the
the Wyse are lyke Goades and lyke Nayles c. which are given by one Pastour Were they not I pray you the ordinarie Church-men whom the LORD rebuked for burdening Consciences with Traditions even of Fathers And were not those Traditions where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition the Traditions of the Church Doeth not the same Father affirme That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum sicubi falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant that is Wee ought not consent no not with Catholicke Bishops if they holde a◅e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures For as Cyprian sayth Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Custome without Trueth is but Antiquitie of Errour And the Saying of Ruffinus on the Creed is notable Non dicimus Credo in Ecclesiam sed Credo Ecclesiam ne eadem vis authoritas videatur Creatoris creaturae Domini Ministrorum that is Wee say not I belieue in the Church but I belieue the Church lest one and the same might appeare to bee the power and auth◅ritie of the Creator and the creature of the LORD and of His Servantes Augustine affirmeth Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum ipsa consilia reprehendere si qua in ◅e a veritate devient That it is lawfull to repr◅oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops yea and the Councels them-selues if in anie thing they decly◅e from the ◅rueth Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour or Herauld heareth the King and who despyseth them despyseth the King haue eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an◅ libe◅tle heere-vpon to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes Or haue not the parties who other-wayes are holdē to heare eyther of th◅m yet place le◅t them without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie and Royall Authoritie both to aske for and to examine their Warrandes Wee haue but one LORD and one Law-giver and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations Other-wayes the manie sad and serious Warninges given vs to trye spirits were vayne Then turning speach to Philomathes Eriphilus heate for your Church Philomathes hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question You objected That all Sects pretende Scripture I answered That all pretended not Scripture onlie for that your Church joyneth and aequalleth with Scripture her owne Devyses Nowe to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt and whether shee may erre or not it were to slyde away from our present poynt and I haue disputed that matter at length in my Defence of our Callinges I giue the Case then that your Church and all others acclayming the Title did pretende Scripture onelie yet it is one thing to pretende Scripture and another to haue Scripture truelie for them It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of Yea and one thing to holde them falselie and but in show and another to holde them truelie One may in worde and profession holde IESVS to haue come in the flesh and yet in effect denye it and so bee an Antichrist None can call IESVS LORD but by the Spirit of GOD sayeth the Scripture and yet the same Scripture witnesseth That not al who call Him LORD shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture they could not greatlie deceiue no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle if they had not plowed with his Heyfer And this indeede were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie if because for more effectuall deceit hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons wee should therefore fayntlie forsake them and for-g◅e that which by our LORD is left vs for our onelie Armour Rule of our Wayes and Sole Ground and Pillar of our Fayth as sayeth Ireneus so to wander and perish in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes it is exceeding strange that your Teachers haue so farre perswaded their Disciples that reading of Scripture to Laike persons as they call them is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution but also dangerous for breeding Errours Thus verifying of themselues that saying of Ireneus speaking of Heretickes Cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum that is When they are argued by Scriptures they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues Al-be-it wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed for searching Scripture and examining there-by what was offered vnto them and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost for a permanent instruction in such case to all succeeding Ages And it is even monstrous to consider how farre your guydes haue brought their followers not onlie to neglect but even to contemne yea and condemne in Laike men the reading of holie Scripture So as I can not tell whether with greater horrour I haue often heard their disdainful speaches against Scripture or with dolour and compassion I haue perceived how some of them presuming much of Knowledge and other-wayes prowdlie peart to prattle in Controversies of Religion and to talke at Tables of some cunned and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers yet in the Sacred BIBLE were as great strangers as in the Alcoran Philomathes If anie man eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture or condemne the reading there-of by Laike persons I am not to make good for that for my selfe I both reverence them and esteeme the reading of them in Sobernesse and Humilitie to all sorts of men not onlie lawfull but also profitable and necessarie Neyther did that which I objected to Eubulus tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture but seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture each drawing out there-of a Sense for corroboration of their owne Opinions but that there is also a manifolde and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men where-through it is cleare howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is It would appeare that al-be-it wee haue not to forsake or despyse Scripture yet for Resolution which is the true Sense that wee must seeke some other Rule And what can that bee else but that leaving all other Interpretations wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth Eubulus Doe you not perceiue Philomathes howe agaynst all Logicke Lawes you reduce our Disputation to a Circle and so not onelie you take that for a graunted ground which is the verie poynt in question but also fall sensiblie in that same imputation which you would appeare so much to shunne Wee are disputing Which is the true Church and haue evinced That the onelie sure way to know Her is by Scripture So as of necessitie first Scripture must leade vs to know amongst common Acclaymers which is Shee before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation I heartilie yeelde that Her interpretation be taken but in such Dispute Who Shee is wee