onely law-giuer Thus ye would bleare the eyes of the ignorant to make them beléeue that the Pope doth make lawes as Moses did But I will shew a difference Moses gaue no lawes nor any of the Apostles but such as they receiued from GOD. They neuer challenged authoritie for to make any law contrary to any part of the word of God nor to abrogate any of the lawes of God For S. Paul saith Galath 1. that if he or an Angell frō heauen should preach any other Gospell then that he had preached let him be accursed Such was the authoritie of Gods worde that if either Paul or Moses or any other which brought it should alter adde to it or diminish the same he should be accursed And yet the Pope doth take power to make lawes contrary to the lawes of the word of God to dispense with the same to disanull what hee will and which is most blasphemous of all to affirme that the holie Scriptures haue no authoritie without him but are of themselues dead can haue no certaintie Is not this to make himselfe God or equall with God What is there which hath authoritie ouer Gods word but God Who doth not here espie the very hornes of the diuell péep vp and speake these things out of the mouth of his vicar Antichrist They do al forsake God and worship the beast which giue him this authoritie Pa. I will not denie but that he which doth set vp lawes contrary to Gods lawes maketh himselfe God euen as a subiect which taketh vpon him to make lawes and to refuse the lawes of the Prince maketh himselfe as it were a king But I say the Bishop of Rome doth not so for he hath the holie Ghost and cannot erre And so when he doth forgiue sinnes he doth no more then is warranted by the word and in very deede which ye take vpon ye to doe Pro. What should I stand to answere bare words wee know the Pope is not led by the holy Ghost but by the lying spirit of the diuel because he hath so flatly troden downe Gods word and brought in his owne lawes in stead of it I will not stand to recite particulars all the world may iudge And whereas ye say he doth not forgiue sins but as we doe take vpon vs that is but a shift which ye haue deuised for all that will may see whether this bee all one to pronounce remission of sins to the penitent which we do and to send forth pardōs whereby for ten shilling matter a man might not onely haue forgiuenes of his sins past but libertie for a good time after to commit many sinnes If this be not the man of sinne where shall we finde him Who doth take vpon him to bee God if he do not which for money will forgiue a man whatsoeuer he doth commit against God Shall a rotten stinking carrion thus blaspheme and men not espie that hee is the great Antichrist I haue now shewed yée how the Pope boasteth himself to be God but I dare not say you will recant Pa. When I see matter which may force me to recant I will do it but for ought that I see brought to the purpose to proue that which you promised there is cause rather why you should recant and renounce your errors and returne againe to the holy mother which is ready to receiue those that returne to her how vnkindly soeuer they haue behaued themselues toward her Pro. The diuelish strumpet is almost left desolate and therefore she laboureth to draw as many as she can and to entice them to her loue faire and foule tag and mag all are welcome none come amisse now Murtherers whoremasters whores bawdes drunkards and all such like if they will take her for their mother she is not ashamed to take them for her children and to make them partakers of her holinesse But let vs come againe to the matter Saint Paul in the same chapter sayth That Antichrist should come with lying signes and wonders and so is it also expressed in the Reuelation that the beast should that way seduce and deceiue the inhabitants of the earth If this be not fulfilled in the kingdome of the Pope how shall it euer bee fulfilled or where shall wee looke for it What hath béen all your outcries but myracles myracles Let a man reade your Legenda Aurea and festiuall and such other pure bookes what shall he finde but myracle vpon myracle and so true that if a man would lye for the whetstone hee may there store himselfe if hee will haue a whole bundle The people did beléeue them for why the Scripture saith 2. Thess 2. GOD should send them strong delusion to beléeue lyes I dare say boldly that although you Papists a great nūber of ye haue put on impudent and shamelesse faces to maintaine lyes yet there is not one of ye but wil blush if he should take vpon him to defend that stinking puddle of lyes and fained wonders which ye fed the common people withal A man may be ashamed to recite them least those which know not the matter should thinke he doth lie Pa. What way can you proue that the myracles of the Church were false and counterfeit Will you take vpon ye to condemne such things as were done long since If there bee some things written which might wel enough be left out is the Church to be charged with that which euery particular man doth There were abuses crept in which the Bishop himselfe did not know of Is it reason he should be blamed Pro. I thinke no wise man will doubt but that this is a sufficient proofe that your myracles were but iugling casts in the darke because ye had such store then haue none now alas there is as great néede now as euer there was And if there bee but one myracle left in your budget pull it forth and let vs see it that we may giue some credit vnto ye Nay your mother had no good counsell giuen her when she had such plentie to spend it so wastfully as she did and to kéepe none for a deare yeare I wisse a few of those great wonders which shée shewed in time past would now stand her in great stead Pa. Mocke on take your pleasure there is none to controule ye VVhat though there be neede at this time yet the world is vnworthie euen as Christ said to the Pharisies when they required a signe Matth. 19. This euill and adulterous generation seeketh a signe but there shall no signe be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the Prophet Euen so what reason is it that the holy mother should shew any wonders and myracles vnto you which are worse then the Pharisies Pro. Alacke good old mother she hath néede as much as euer she had to shew her cunning but the world is not worthie Although shée might winne great credit by it yet she had rather kéepe a good conscience And therefore
séeme to be yet God will refuse to acknowledge ye for his seruants because ye refuse his ordinances and deuise toyes of your owne which ye thrust vpon him and as it were force him to accept them If ye did meane well ye would doe better your deuotion is diuellish obstinacie your méekenes is haughtinesse in despising God You haue forgottē what the Lord saith In vaine doe they worship me Esay 29. Matth. 15. teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Pa. VVhere learne you to giue such rayling sentence against the deuotion of holy men and to iudge Ye boast of the Gospell ye haue nothing els in your mouth and yet the Gospell willeth ye not for to iudge This doth declare what spirit ye are led with Pro. If your Romish rowte were holy deuoute men then no doubt wee should be found to giue rayling sentence and if the holy scriptures did not warrant vs so to speake of those which are open enemies to GOD then wée might iustly be blamed or if wee should enter so far as to iudge of the secrets of mens harts not where the word of God doth pronounce the iudgement then were wee to be condemned but séeing the word doth teach that which we vtter wee neither giue rayling sentence neither doe wee iudge otherwise then to pronounce out of Gods trueth what is holy and what is wicked and abominable Pa. Proue those things which you haue said out of the word as that good intents are not pleasing to God that when men are deuout and take paines to serue God it is diuelish and other such like and I wil be your bondman while I liue Pro. Good intents doe please God God doth require that men should be deuoute and take paines to serue him and vnlesse these things bee in them they are not his seruants But yours are no good intents but phantasies of your owne braine for they procéede not of faith because they bee not ordered by Gods word Rom. 14. but against the word and whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Your worship being not framed after the will of God but procéeding from your owne liking is no more but blinde deuotion when ye haue taken all the paines ye can and haue wearied your selues this shall bee your reward Esay 1. Who required these things at your hands Who did set ye a worke and appoynt ye this seruice As concerning such kinde of worship as yours the Apostle doth call it will-worship for when he hath spoken of commandements and doctrines of men he addeth thus Colos 2. Which things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntarie worship and humblenesse of minde and not sparing the bodie which things are of no estimation séeing they pertaine to the filling of the flesh This place of Saint Paul well obserued doth fully and cléerely without any exposition quite ouerthrow all your Popish religion For he sheweth that before GOD all such trash is of no estimation Againe his description doth so fitly paynt out Poperie and that which you bragge of as nothing can bee more apt Marke well euery branch and member of his words and ye will confesse the same He demaundeth of the Colossians how it commeth to passe that if they be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world that they bee burdened with traditions Colos 1. as touch not taste not c. Which things perish in their vse and therefore this conclusion is to bée drawne out that the eternall and spirituall kingdome of GOD doth not consist in such things For how should the kingdome of God consist in those things which perish Pa. Ye would make somewhat of nothing that place of S. Paul is not against vs. If yee haue none other ye cannot ouerthrow our religion Pro. Ye doe interrupt me in the middest of my matter onely to cauill because ye are loth to haue this place of scripture touched seeing it doth so fully open and display your wardes Because ye say it maketh not against ye and would faine passe from it I will leade ye to it by the eares Doth not your religion stand in outward things which perish in their vse Are not your traditions the commandements and doctrines of men Let all the world iudge of that And Saint Paul doth make that a sufficient reason to ouerthrow any thing whatsoeuer in the seruice of God If it bee of man the holy Ghost would haue vs make no further inquisition but to take it for dung and draugh how goodly soeuer it séeme and glister as gold Esay 29. Matth. 15. Doth not the Lord also say In vaine doe they worship me teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Well to goe forward these deuises of yours are marueilously well liked and the people of the world are made very deuoute towards God by them indéede the people of the world doe like well such religion and it carrieth them to a kinde of deuotion to estéeme such matters to haue great wisedome in them Therefore the Apostle doth say that those inuentions of men haue a shew of wisedome and the people vse to say I warrant ye our fathers which deuised these things were wise men But marke well the causes which the Lord doth set downe why these things séeme to haue such wisedome and why they be so well liked of The first cause is that it is a voluntary religion a religion which being framed by the corrupt will and braine of men is very well pleasing to the deuisers and doth also fit other men whose wil and braine is as corrupt as theirs For as that which procéedeth from the will of God is contrary to the wisedome of flesh and therefore misliked and condemned of folly so that which commeth out of mans will is agréeable to man and therefore approued and commended as the onely wisedome Thus may we sée when the Apostle saith such things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntary religion how it commeth to passe that the worship which is set by the policie and inuention of men is better accepted of then that which procéedeth from the will of God Pa. Ye haue enough of that place vnlesse ye would expound it more truly there are manie scriptures which make for your purpose if ye may haue this scope to take them as ye lust Leaue off your vaine heape of words with which ye goe about to bleare mens eyes and to draw and wrest the Scriptures to your owne sense It were much better for ye to meddle lesse Pro. All men may easily see that this place of Scripture doth bite ye to the bone no marueile therefore though ye haue enough of it for lesse would better content ye There are many Scriptures indéede which make for our purpose without any wresting at all Euen as this one place of Saint Paul which we be in hande with néedeth no wresting to make it speake against you when as euery blind man which cannot sée may yet by groping féele the
wee condemne it and hate it more then you do And although ye goe about to abuse and wrest the scriptures against vs yet ye shall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worship of God Pro. Will ye confesse if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the false Church and that ye are fallen away from the trueth that the Pope is Antichrist Pa. I must needes confesse that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie I say still wee be the furthest frō it of all other And in this I think my selfe sufficiently armed to stand against all the heretikes in the world proue what ye can Pro. Al those which worship idols are condemned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters But it seemeth you Papists doe not worship idols at least ye would beare men in hand ye doe not when as in very déede ye doe it in most shamefull maner Where hath it euer béene heard of that men haue more doted vpō stocks and stones then the Papists Wil ye stil then be past shame and say you hate idolatrie you are furthest from it of all other Pa. I say still and neede not be ashamed that it is the blindnesse of you heretikes which either cannot or will not see that ours is no Idolatrie This sin of Idolatrie is where they worship Idols wee haue images of the true God of the blessed Virgin of the Apostles and of other Saints wee haue no idols of feined and false Gods wee worship not the images themselues neither but the things which are by them represented Moreouer we doe not giue latria to the images of Saints but dulia which God in the scriptures doth neuer condemne I say therefore ye helpe vs when ye say we worship stocks and stones or that we worship any besides the true God You are the idolaters your selues Pro. You would faine purge and cléere your selues from idolatrie and therefore ye haue deuised these distinctions first ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image yours are Images but not Idols Secondly ye shift the matter that ye do not worship the Images themselues but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of And last of all your déepe distinction betwéene latria which is worship which ye giue onely to God and dulia which is seruice which ye bestow vpon the Saints I will lay open how vaine these things are and yet how they be subtill to deceiue poore ignorant soules Pa. I know your answers well enough ye take vpon ye to defend that an Idoll and an Image are all one And so when it is said God made man after his owne Image yee may translate it after his owne Idoll It may be said of the picture image of the prince this is the princes Idoll Likewise if a painter paint an image of a dog ye may say this is an Idoll of a dog Ah Sirs this is ouer grosse ye shew by this what your skill is in other things Pro. Now must ye néeds win the spurres because wee say that Image and Idoll is all one sauing that the one is Greeke and the other Latin Ye say thē we must say God made man after his owne Idoll which were very grosse I confesse that in our tongue it were grosse indéed because the word Idoll is by common vse of spéech taken alwaies in euill part but in the Gréeke tongue it was not so But I will come néerer vnto ye to shew your deceitfull dealing in this shall wee desire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue in the scriptures in which it is said that God made man after his owne image and in which there is much spoken of idols What if I proue that hee vseth the same word where hee speaketh of idols which he vseth where hee saith God made man after his owne image Will there then be such a difference Pa. When I see this then I will beleeue it before I will not the Scriptures do speake of images it may be there is the same word But you must proue it where hee doth speake it of those which were idols indeed of the heathen of false gods Pro. I wil shew where he speaketh of idols indéed which were worshipped by the heathē and proue that he vseth the same word The word in Moses is Tselem after which Adam was created Gen. 1. Now looke where hee speaketh to the children of Israel by Moses to command them to break down the idols of the heathen and ye shall finde the same word As Numb 33. He saith ye shall destroy Tsalme Massecotham that is their moulten images In the 2. booke of Kings chap. 11. it is said They went into the house of Baal and brake downe his images which he calleth by the same name By this it doth appeare that in the holy scriptures there is no such difference betwéene idol and image as the Papists would beare men in hand For these were idols by their owne confession which yet are set forth vnder that same word which Moses vseth for the likenes of God after which man was created Pa. All this doth proue nothing for wee doe grant that which ye haue said Because idols be also images although euery picture and image bee not an idol for an idol is an image which is worshipped and taken to be God Pro. It doth proue this for which I did alleage it that the same word is in that tongue vsed indifferently for the image of GOD and for the idols of the heathen But because ye say it doth proue nothing séeing idols be images although euery image is not by and by an idol vnlesse it be worshipped Let me demand this Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll Pa. I know no man which doth deny but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid But you must go further then that for ye must proue that those which the Scripture doth forbid are but called images and so images and idols to be all one Pro. Ye say right for those which the scripture condemneth we must cōfesse to be idols then if I proue that the scripture doth condēne images it must néeds follow that they be idols I require no more for it is manifest that the Scripture doth forbid all images of God as in Deuterono 4. there is forbidden not onely Semel but also Temnuah and Tabnith And in Esay 40. Demuth Who will bee so mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden and therefore that images are idols Pa. I see no cause why I should not deny it for they were also idols because they were made to be worshipped Pro. I sée no cause why I may not estéeme you to be obstinatly blinded Because in these places which I haue cited he doth not onely speake of the true GOD but also the reasons which are set downe
certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite And hath the spirit which made them and preserueth them so lost his power and are his qualities and operations so weake that he cannot bée discerned from the spirit of the diuell Are his fruites such as they cannot be discerned from the rotten fruites of the flesh and the workes of darknes Ephes 1. Rom. 8. Saint Paul saith that we are sealed with the holy spirit of promise he willeth mē to walke after the spirit not after the flesh he setteth forth the fruites of the flesh Galath 5. and the fruites of the spirit Rom. 8. He saith that this spirit doth beare witnesse vnto our spirit that we are the sonnes of God This should bee but a weake witnesse if wee should not bée able to know whether we haue him or not But perhaps all these scriptures many other which I could cite haue not light enough in them for your blind eyes and therefore I will shew ye the thing more fully thus A man heareth the word of God preached 1. Cor. 12. it striketh his heart and conuerteth him wheras before he was as blind as a béetle now he séeth the light whereas before he had no loue to the holy word of God now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it whereas before his care was of this world couetousnes did cause him gréedily to séeke vnlawfull gaine now his mind is bent vpon heauenly things and after them he séeketh whereas before he was full of adulteries riot wantonnes vanity now his wicked affections are tamed and altered he much abhorreth such filthines and whereas before he could neuer cease doing euill he was neuer at ease but when he delighted himselfe in some vngodlinesse now he is a man quite changed he doth much lament and sorrow that euer he was so wicked to despise God all his ioy is now to doe good workes the feare of God is before his eyes now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himselfe that he is new borne to God that he is a new creature he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy spirit of GOD and that he hath wrought this new worke in him Pa. It seemeth by your talke that such as haue receiued the spirit are so sure that they cannot be deceiued To what purpose then was Saint Paul so carefull to warne the true Christians to take heede yea we may see that there were diuers of them seduced This is quite contrarie to that certaintie which you doe speake of Pro. There is no cōtrariety in these things for if any were seduced and drawne away frō the truth vnto destruction it is most certaine they were neuer sealed with the spirit but had some small taste He laboureth with the other to haue them grow strong to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth not to bée as children carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine for the blessed Apostle Saint Peter describing such false Teachers as you 2. Pet. 2. sheweth that they shall beguile vnstable soules Such therefore as will not bee seduced neither by you nor any other heretikes must abound in knowledge and grace for so wee are willed If the wisedome of the holy Ghost be in vs and hath inlightened vs the subtiltie of the diuell and the power of darknesse shall not ouercome vs the power of the holy Ghost is greater then the power of Satan and for this cause we are sure of victorie If this were not we could haue but small comfort we should he but in woe case It is not your greasie pope which could helpe vs which himselfe is ouercome of the diuell and obeyeth his will Pa. Well well for this matter I say still that your doctrine is new that ye condemne all our forefathers and whereas you would seeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith because ye proue it by the Scriptures I say you proue nothing for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church you can not interprete neither can ye iudge but the great shepheard whose voyce ye should heare must giue the sense therefore I say still that ye be heretikes all the packe of yee and but that I spare ye I could bite ye a little better I am sorie ye bee so wilfull Pro. When ye haue spent all your powder then yée retire backe againe into your castle which is so sure as you suppose that nothing can batter the walles but when a man doth view them well he shall finde them to be but painted clothes For in very déed ye stand obstinately and frowardly vpon certaine bare affirmations And when a man hath neuer so strongly confuted and disproued them yet ye alleadge them still But let this go and come to the rest Ye say ye could but that ye spare me or els that ye are musled bite me a little better I feare not your teeth for I trust your biting will not ranckle not because they bée not venime but because I am so well defensed that ye cannot fasten your téeth vpon me But spare not powre out all your poyson and doe your worst Pa. Yee doe but gibe and mocke at those things which I speake it is euen according to your profession yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith take heede it is better for ye to repent and to turne home againe to the holy Church which ye haue and doe dishonour I said that I did spare ye and it shall appeare now for I will touch ye a little neerer and yet but with the trueth not with all that I might say neither for it were infinite to rehearse all your abominable waies which ye walke in and are to bee charged withal A little shall suffice I say by your wicked and carnall doctrine euen your new Gospell ye teach all loosenes and licentious libertie to the flesh As for example ye denie the merits of good workes ye teach that men are iustified by faith without good deeds ye teach Election and Predestination and denie freewill and so by this meanes the people are brought to haue no care of good workes but to liue as they lust for thus it doth follow if we be iustified by faith alone what neede we care for good workes If we bee chosen and predestinate and haue no freewill left in vs to chuse or refuse then let God alone wee cannot further nor hinder our selues what should wee eare let vs then set cocke a hoope and take our pleasure while we be here this is your sweet doctrine thus ye teach Pro. I néede not maruell to heare ye threaten to bite me whē ye dare open your mouth to blaspheme the Lord God and to barke like a most filthie and prophane dogge against the most glorious Gospell of Christ Which howsoeuer ye belie it doth teach all heauenly puritie and care of good workes They bée conclusions of your owne
framing which neither wee teach neither doe they follow of that doctrine which wée deliuer The diuell and the flesh reason thus God hath chosen men they haue no power of themselues they cannot deserue or merite by their good déedes but are iustified by faith alone in the merits of Christ therefore let them care for no well doing but walke after the carnall desires and lusts of the flesh what should they care they can neither further nor hinder themselues But the holy spirit of God concludeth thus God chose vs when wée were his enemies of his owne good will when wée were not able so much as to thinke a good thought therefore wee are bound to yéeld all praise and honour vnto him He hath of his infinite loue giuen vs his deare and onely be gotten sonne for to redéeme vs and to iustifie vs therefore we ought to shew our selues louing and kinde vnto him againe to serue honour and obey him in all true obedience and holy conuersation What should I stand to recite testimonies of Scripture to proue these conclusions and to ouerthrow yours when as euery poore man which hath any delight in the sacred Bible is able for to sée them They bee worse then bruite beasts which haue not learned this out of the word that God hath chosen his people hath by his frée grace redéemed and iustified them to the end they may be holy zealous of good workes although not to merit withall which they cannot yet to glorifie GOD as Christ saith Let your light so shine before mē Matth. 5 that they may sée your good workes glorifie your father which is in heauen Likewise hée saith Herein is my father glorified Iohn 15. that yée grow and bring forth much fruite We teach with S. Iohn 1. Iohn 3. he that worketh righteousnesse is borne of God he that committeth sinne is of the diuell We teach with Christ Iohn 8. that hée that committeth sin is the seruant of sin We teach with Saint Paul Rom. 8. that those which are in Christ walke not after the flesh but after the spirit We teach with S. Iames Iames 2. that that faith which is without good works is dead therefore cānot iustifie saue a man It is not faith but a dead picture and shew of faith which the diuels haue The true faith cannot bee without good workes So that wee teach a necessitie of good workes not to merit or to iustifie but to shew foorth the fruites of our calling Pap. Ye say that ye doe not teach libertie to the flesh nor giue men leaue to liue as they will nor that your doctrine doth not destroy good deedes but shall wee giue more credite to your words or to the successe and fruites which we see to follow of your doctrine He that will rightlie trie what your doctrine is let him looke what fruites it doth bring forth What better and more sure triall can a man require then this I trow ye will not refuse to bee tried by this rule Then let vs come vnto it your holy doctrine how commeth it to passe that it doth bring forth so many sowre fruites Was there euer more sinne committed VVhat fowle wickednesse is it which doth not flow in your streetes You may compare with the Sodomites for your gluttonies wantonnesse whoredomes pride couetousnesse and such like VVhat good thing can a man see in your Clergie which should giue good example to others and whose pure conuersation should be a paterne for other to follow How many of them are there which are men voide of all learning and grace who hauing spent their time lewdly and consumed their substance when they cannot tell how to liue step into the ministerie or at the least coueting to liue at ease and shunning to worke being scarce sit for the plow much lesse for the pulpit yet are admitted by your heauenly Gospell to be masters in Israel How many wanton fleshly adulterers are there among them How couetous how worldly how ambitious are your learned men Doe not all men see how they preach and take on vntill such time as they be loden with liuings and are got vp as high as they can and then as though they had wonne the vpshot they put vp their arrowes into their quiuer and vnbend their bowes they neede not any further to trouble themselues But what neede I speake when the matter it selfe doth as it were make open proclamation Your common people seeing they haue no better examples are giuen ouer to all kinde of naughtinesse If ye can proue this to be holesome doctrine which doth bring forth and allow such things as these I will be no longer a Catholike Pro. If I should answere ye onely with this that your euill fruits do farre passe ours although it were most easie to be proued yet should I make but a slender answere because that in ouerthrowing you we should also cōdemne our selues For this I must néeds confesse with yee that the doctrine which doth bring forth euill fruites cannot bée good And a good triall I doe confesse of the doctrine to be in the good fruits which it doth bring forth When ye charge vs that all abominable sins do flow in our stréetes we do also with great griefe acknowledge it And this farre I allow your sayings but whē ye ascribe these things to our doctrine as the fruites which it doth bring forth there I doe disallow ye as a blasphemer of God and his most pure trueth For it is not because our doctrine doth allow much lesse bréede such euils that they bee among vs but because our doctrine which is the holy word of God is of the most men despised and not knowne The Lord by sundry of his prophets doth complaine of the Iewes and accuseth them to bée worse then the heathen was therefore the law and doctrine which he had giuen them to bée blamed No they refused to walke in his ordinances and so doe the people at this day The Lord bée blessed there are a number although farre the lesse number which lie as scattered cornes in a great heape of chasse which haue imbraced the holy doctrine of the Lord and doe expresse it in their liues do euery day mourne for the abominations of Hierusalem and earnestly doe desire that the Lorde would purge it If either our doctrine did allowe such abuses or those which doe sincerely imbrace it walke in them then your wordes which yée vtter might haue some weight in them but séeing it is otherwise ye remaine still with the rest of your companions a wicked blasphemer of the holie word of God As for that which ye vtter against our Clergie it maketh nothing at all against vs vnlesse ye could proue that our doctrine doth allow such But ye may sée the contrarie for our Gospell doth allow none but learned Teachers and godly Pastours which expresse the worde in their conuersation those which Saint Paul alloweth
make a very liberall accusation of great and foule matter although ye say it would be too long to recite the particulars to intreate vpon them yet ye may name them Pro. In few words I may name some if that will pleasure ye our carnall protestants are couetous greedie worldlings craftie in their dealings to séeke all aduantages against those with whom they deale full of vsurie and briberie and these things are also in you our carnall Gospellers are very fowle mouthed in slaunderings railings ribaldries and horrible othes these things ye make no cōscience of Our carnall protestants are giuen ouer to spend their time in gluttonies drinkings vaine pleasures and vnlawfull exercises these are your veniall sinnes and whosoeuer will not runne with ye to powre out themselues in the same excesse of riot they are precise fooles more nice then wise they do it but of vaine glorie and singularitie Pa. Ye may bee ashamed to charge vs with such things seeing our Church hath alwaies vsed so sharp discipline vpon such offenders you may iustly be charged because ye let loose the raines vnto all vices yee giue the flesh the swinge yee haue no discipline among ye to make men stand in awe Pro. We may be ashamed to speake truth of you but you must not once blush at the matter when ye blaspheme the glorious Gospell of Christ and why onely because ye are past shame but let your words goe and come to your matter You may not in no case bée blamed for such vices which haue alwayes holden men in awe with sharpe discipline and corrected the offenders It is well knowne to al wise mē what your discipline was true it is that ye did hold men wonderfully in awe but of whom not of God but of the Romish prelate No man durst wagge his finger against him no man might once finde fault with any of his dirtie inuentions vnder paine of his extreme and heauie curse But each man might liue as he lust in all vices against God onelie he must confesse his sinnes to the priest and receiue a certaine penance to fast certaine daies or to goe on pilgrimage to some Saint or to haue the Popes pardon for a péece of money not onely for his sinnes past but also for those which he should afterward commit Others when they had committed some horrible sinnes must whip themselues and so at it againe Thus your holy pope did open the gate to all vncleannes and therefore in the Scriptures is called the man of sinne Pa. This seemeth very strange to me how penance and correction should open the gate vnto all sin It seemeth by your words that men would loue sinne the better because it should bee punished I would wish ye to be better aduised in your words for I could take ye in many such absurdities but I am almost ashamed to recite them they bee so childish trifles to come from any one of your coate which professe learning But let me see how you shut vp the gate against sinne which inioyne no penance or correction It is a world to see the vanity of mens minds which perswade themselues that they can make men beleeue the crow is white alas your poore Sophistrie is not able to doe this Yet I perceiue ye haue some grace in ye for I trow ye blush Pro. It would make any man blush I trow to be taken in such a trip and so to ouer-shoote himselfe as I haue done by affirming that your discipline did open the gate vnto al sinne For can such sharpe penance as to fast three daies together with bread and water or to go bare footed to our Ladie of Walsingame or for a man to whip himselfe vntill the blood follow or to giue ten shillings for a pardon make men loue sinne the better This geare I trow would scarre them and make them to haue little lust to sinne Oh no good sir this is nothing so sharpe as hell fire men finde such a swéete taste in sinne that if they may escape so they will not care The adulterer hath such pleasure in his vncleane lust that he will to it againe if he may be perswaded it be but a whipping matter The drunkard will haue one pot of ale the more if he may heale the matter againe by drinking a cup of water The enuious and hatefull man will haue one fling at his enemie if a payre of old angels will dispatch the matter and procure his pardon at the hands of the holy father and so in each sinne O yée holy hell-hounds here is your sharpe discipline by which ye giue liberty vnto men to turne back to vncleannes euen as a dogge to his vomite But while wee reproue your discipline wée haue none our selues and so we doe but play the Sophisters which would take vpon them to proue that the crow is white Sir before I come to our discipline I say our doctrine is this that vnder paine of Gods curse and eternall damnation men must returne from their wicked waies and not returne vnto them againe they must giue vp themselues wholly to serue God in all good workes As for the discipline of our Church thus sharp it is that the obstinate sinner is to be cut off frō the congregation to be deliuered vp vnto satan not to he receiued in again vntil such time as he hath declared very apparant tokens of déepe sorow harty repentance Let al men iudge whether this be not to shut vp the gate against sinne Pa. Now you may very well be likened vnto a man that will make great brags of his riches when he is nothing worth A marueilous sharpe discipline ye speake of but I pray ye where shal a mā find it euē in your Spirituall courts for there a mā if the officer cannot get his fee shall be cursed to the diuell throwne out of the church yea so seuerely that he shall not be receiued in againe before he come weeping vntill the teares drop out of his purse O yee dissolute teachers of libertie and maintainers of iniquitie cease your bragging of those things which are not among ye Pro. Your blasphemous tongue will neuer cease vnlesse it be cut out of your head doo we teach libertie doe wee maintaine iniquitie Admit your saying bee true yet I pray you how slenderly doe you reason when yée say that a mā is excommunicated for money and receiued in againe for money although they doe not repent and therefore your Gospell giueth libertie to sinne Oh good sir Christ and his Gospell allow no such thing if men doe offend doe not you therefore blame the trueth for there is no equitie nor good dealing in that What though we haue not the discipline of the Gospell in our Church here in this land so whole and sound as it should bee yet because wee allow it wee pray for it wee thirst after it wee confesse the want thereof we ought not to be charged as those which
not giue you ouer for as you haue vttered your slaunders against the Gospell of Christ so you must giue me leaue to lay open some of those abominations which you are iustly to be charged withall Pa. It is no matter what ye say I doubt not but that I shall be able to defend our holy Mother from all your spitefull accusations Say the worst ye can Pro. When I haue said the worst that I can I shall yet come short of the matter For what tongue is able to expresse the full wickednesse of Babylon the mother of whoredomes and abominations which did in pride lift vp her selfe against God and his trueth and made all nations drunken with the wine of her fornication Pa. I tell ye this is but to raile and slander vnlesse ye be able to make proofe of that which ye say but I looke for no such thing at your hands for your sect is wont to accuse deepely and to proue slenderly Pro. I mind to say nothing but that which I will proue and that more strongly then wil be to your liking Your dealing is manifest to all men and your euill meaning may soone be espied vnlesse men will be wilfully blind Are ye not like vnto whores and théeues other malefactors which put out the light and seeke darknesse to couer them that they may not be séene when they commit euill What is your purpose when ye remoue the word of GOD from the sight of the people and doe as it were bury it in a strange tongue Is it not the light to guide our steps Psal 119. Is it not the foode of our soules What is your intent that ye would not haue the people know it Pa. I see there is nothing so honestly done but euill men will suspect it as you compare our doings with whores and theeues because wee allow not the people to reade the scriptures in a knowne tongue But I answere that yee may keepe your comparison to your selfe for our wise ancestors did not take the scriptures from the lay people of any euill intent but because the common people did abuse them and gather errors out of them It is a very dangerous thing for vnlearned men to meddle with or to reade the scriptures they bee darke and hard to be vnderstood euery man can not gather the true sense of them You are fooles and therefore ye are not able to iudge of the wisedome of the fathers in our Church you take that to be amisse which is done most excellently Pro. We are ouer suspicious for your intent is good your honestie is such that ye may be trusted in the darke ye are shamefull honest men indeede We are but fooles and not able to discerne with what wisedome such things are done Surely wee can no skill of that wisedome when men take vpon them to be wiser then GOD. But let vs see the wisedome and good meaning in this thing This it is the common people will abuse the Scriptures and gather errors out of them and therfore a dangerous case for thē to meddle therewith the Scriptures are darke they bee not able to gather the sense I know this is a great déepe point of wisedome among those which sauour the things of men Matth. 16. and not the things of God But trie it and it shall appeare to be extreme follie and those which approue thereof are very doltish asses although for worldly wit they haue déepe heads and excell a number of other men For looke how a cunning artificer when he steppeth out of his owne shop and medleth with a science beyond his reach is no body euen so the wisedome of the world when it will be so busie as to controule the wisedome of God disgraceth her selfe God is here checked for giuing such a word it is better to remoue it away errors errors doe spring by it It is hard to bée vnderstood God might haue dealth more plainly O ye blasphemous wretches what will ye charge God and his holie word withall hath he in such wise declared his blessed will to men that it were better they were without it Haue the sacred Scriptures so little profit in them that they bee better vnknowne then knowne Moreouer see how ye reason men doe abuse the Scriptures and gather errors of them therefore they are to bee remoued This reason is the like men abuse meate and drinke and become drunkards and gluttons therefore it were good to make a law to debarre them those things The bodie cannot liue without meate and drinke the soule can not be saued without the word Some doe abuse meate and drinke shall therefore all bée debarred Some doe peruert the worde to their destruction shall all other therefore bee depriued and want the most necessarie vse thereof No this is but a craft which yée vse to make men afraid to search the Scriptures least they should espie you for there euerie man may easily learne to iudge of your dealings You know well enough that when the people come to know the will of God which you are loth they should then they little estéeme your will Ignorance is the strongest pillar of your religion and as you terme it the mother of deuotion For so soone as men haue a litle knowledge of God their zeale towards you is quenched when they see once the true treasure they will no more of your trash In déed I cannot blame ye that ye labour to put out the light and to hold men stil in darknes because the light will vncouer your shame Pa. VVhen should wee come to an end if I should answere all your words You confesse that some do abuse the word gather errors out of it I suppose then that euery wise man will grant it were better for these that the Scriptures were taken from them And who can tell which they be vntill it bee too late VVere it not better to worke the surer way so that no one may fall into that danger You care not as it seemeth for the losse of a few soules but the price of the soule is so great that ye should be carefull if it were but for one Moreouer we do not remoue the word away but from those which are vnmeete to deale with it we doe not say it were better vnknowne thē knowne but to such as will abuse their knowledge In good sooth me thinketh ye ouershoote your selfe greatly very reason doth leade a man to see that it is not a seemely nor fit thing for Tom carter when he hath laid downe his whip to take vp the bible Let him meddle with that which he can skill of and leaue the Scriptures to such as haue learning to iudge of them Pro. I would be very loth to kéepe ye companie vntill ye should answere all my words the time will bee so long that if ye should fast vntill ye had done the Pope néede not inioyne ye any further penance A very clarklike reason ye make out of
that which I grant some doe abuse the Scriptures if a man could tell which they were then it should suffice to take them from those but because it cannot bée knowne vntill it bee too late it is better to worke the surer way that is to take them from all and so ye shall bee sure no one shall gather errors out of them This reason is amplified by the price of the soule where also ye charge vs not to care for the losse of a few soules This is a great reason I pray ye if a man might aske what did it cost ye Pa. This is a pretie conueiance when ye are not able to answere then ye finde a way to make your self merie ye aske what it cost me ye should first aske where I bought it Pro. Nay I know the chiefe market of such wares is at Louaine I néede not aske where ye bought it But I am sure ye bought it too deare although it cost ye nothing because it was not worth the taking vp But ye say I cannot answere ye Yes that I can I say ye are like to a great wise man who hauing one shéepe dead of the rot by feeding in his pasture doth knocke all the rest downe and destroyeth them casting them away least some one more should be infected For because some doe peruert the Scriptures to their own destruction 2. Cor. 3. and because the Gospell is the sauour of death vnto death in some therefore you will cast away all the rest with them For what other thing doe ye when ye take from them the food of life and all the armour wherwith they should defend themselues against the spiritual enemie Your reason were somewhat worth if men could bee saued without the knowledge of Gods word but because they cannot therfore ye may put it vp againe vntill it bee better growne For your other words God gaue the Scriptures for all his people to reade and learne and therefore yée are murtherers of soules and arrant théeues when ye depriue the people of God of the waters of life and in stead thereof giue them the stinking waters of your owne inuentions And howsoeuer it pleaseth you to estéeme of the common people whom ye doe in disdaine set forth by Tom Carter and thinke it no reason to lay downe the whip and to take vp the Bible yet you must know they are the people of GOD redéemed by the blood of his sonne vnto whom the Gospell doth belong and they haue as great interest and full right in it as any other GOD hath promised to teach it them and also doth teach it them You are like the Scribes and Pharisies which cōdemned those which followed Christ because they were of the common people Doe any of the Princes say they or of the Pharisies beléeue in him Iohn 7. But this multitude which know not the law is accursed Those proude Prelates thought the people had no vnderstāding of Gods word when they vnderstood it better then they euen so it shall be found that many a poore plowman hath more right and sincere knowledge of Gods word then all your horned Bishops and great Rabbines Pa. Truly I cannot but marueile to heare ye cannot the people bee saued without the Scriptures bee in their hands Can they not doe well without the knowledge of Gods word Is it not enough for them to beleeue in Christ and to liue vprightly Must they needs meddle with that which is so far aboue their reach See I pray ye what case you set the people in ye shut thē out from saluation when ye teach that they cannot bee saued without the knowledge of Gods word For they be not able to know the word Let the best instructed of your common people come for to defend their faith will they be able to answer such reasons as some can bring against thē if not how do they know they hold the trueth that which they cannot reach vnto to perceiue may be the trueth for ought that they know Therfore I say still that the holy Mother hath done wel and wisely to take the Scriptures out of the hands of lay men You must proue that the common people are commanded to reade and studie the Scriptures which ye shall neuer be able for to doe Pro. No man can bee saued without faith faith cannot be without the word for S. Paul faith Faith doth come by hearing Rom. 10. hearing by the word How should a mā beléeue before he doth know what to beléeue Iohn 3. God doth giue testimony of his sonne he that beléeueth that testimony he doth seale that God is true He that wil beléeue must know what and how to beléeue therefore of necessity that he haue the knowledge of the word of God This doth proue how foolish you are whē ye aske if it be not enough for them to beléeue in Christ to liue vprightly as no wise mā doth doubt but that this is enough so there is no foole almost but a man may make him sée that this can in no wise be without the knowledge of the word Is it not the word which conuerteth the soule Is it not the word which lightneth the eyes and giueth wisedome to the simple Is it not the word which doth purifie Psal 19. Iohn 15. Iohn 8. Is not the word the light to guide our steps do not they which are of God heare the word of God Is it not said Blessed are they which heare the word of God kéep it Is not the man pronounced blessed Psal 1. which doth meditate in the law of the Lord day and night O yee miserable wretches what whores faces haue you put on that are not ashamed to speake directly contrary vnto God Is it not aboue their reach to beléeue and to obey God and yet is it aboue their reach to know what to beléeue and what is the will and pleasure of God which they are to obey Can subiects obey their Prince and not know the lawes Or doe Princes make lawes and then kéepe them secret If not wherefore should the lawes of the king of kings be secrets Can any seruant doe the will of his master and not know what it is But you haue an other stout argument to proue that the scriptures are aboue the reach of the vnlearned and therefore he is not to meddle with them he can neuer come to any certaintie of knowledge by them for let some man of great learning come and reason with him and he may make sundry reasons which the other cannot answere which you take to be a plaine proofe that his knowledge is not certaine but such as he may be driuen from Alas what stuffe here is to reason withall against the trueth such a cauiller as you may méete with some simple plaine man riding vpō his horse which he doth perfectly know to be his owne and make such Sophisticall reasons to proue the horse not to be his or
5. but sinners to repentance You say sinfull mē are permitted to deale with the scriptures we answere the more sinful the greater néed they haue to know the scriptures because they must reforme them and cure them other meanes for the sinners there are none Psal 119. Wherewithall saith the Prophet shall a young man clense his waies euen by taking héed thereto according to thy word Ye reason euen as handsomly as if a man should count it vnméet for those to come to the water to wash them which are all myred or if a man should be out of his way in the darke let him haue no light because he is out of his way Matth. 12. O yee wicked Pharisies yée shut vp the kingdome of God before men yée neither enter your selues neither do ye suffer those which would Let thousand thousands and millians of thousands deale vndiscréetlie and wickedly with the word gather all kinde of diuelish errors out of it by peruerting it be puffed vp with their knowledge make but a pratling thereof yet this must not let but that if God had but ten chosen in the world his counsels must be opened vnto them Men abuse the word when they talke vnreuerently of it therefore you say it is to bee remoued théeues and quarrellers doe fight rob and kill with their weapons therefore the true men must cast them away Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy scriptures night and day but yet reuerently Is not the word of God called the sword of the spirit Ephes 6. with which wee must fight against the diuell Doth not Christ our captaine giue vs example Matth. 4. when he still alleageth the scriptures against him How childish are ye in alleadging this that Christ did speake in parables and said it was giuen to the disciples to knowe the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that in seeing they might not see I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he speaketh Were they not the great clarkes the Scribes and Pharisies which did see not perceiue heare and not vnderstand Yea it is to be vnderstood of all the reprobate both the learned and vnlearned As on the other side the mysteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to simple ones Matth. 11. I thanke thée O father saith Christ Lord of heauen and earth that thou hast hid these things from the wise prudent and hast opened them vnto babes Doe ye not sée in the Gospell how our Sauiour Christ did publish the Gospell instruct the multitude Is it not testified that publicanes and sinners did imbrace the same whē the wise ones despised the counsel of God Doth not Christ tell thē that publicanes harlots should go before them into the kingdom of God Luke 7. Matth. 21. You say they went all one way when they knew not the scriptures Doubtles the heathen men went all one way but it was no good way for it was to destruction euen so as many as did not as S. Paul saith receiue the loue of the trueth that they might be saued 2. Thess ◠God did send thē strong delusiō to beléeue lies so they were damned These were not all our forefathers for God alwaies shewed his trueth to his seruants Ye say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures whē as the learned doe not but are set one against an other one doth confute another ye should conclude of this that because learned men doe raise vp errors aswell as the vnlearned therefore the scriptures ought to be taken away frō them also and so ye should make sure worke Let God speake no more vnlesse he can do better let the Pope onely vtter his minde and heare him for he will tell a plaine tale Pa. This is euen like all your schismatikes and heretikes for all of ye doe allow errors quarrels and contentions Ye thinke it a small matter to haue the world filled and set vpon an vprore with them ye doe euen glorie in them as though there could be no trueth without them Oh say you it is a certaine and infallible proofe that ours is the true Gospell that so great troubles and sundrie sects do follow it Thus ye are not ashamed to confesse the euil fruits of your doctrine so that others need not to speake thereof Many other such like speeches ye vtter Pro. I am no liker those which imbrace the trueth then ye are like your father not the father of trueth but of lyes for let a man conuict ye a thousand times in your sayings yet ye will not sticke to lie and slaunder Where can ye euer shew that any true professor of the Gospell doth allow errors quarrels contentions Because we say that the scriptures must not bee taken from the people although neuer so many errors and schismes do follow can ye gather thereof that we allow the same no we detest and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts such trecherie of the diuell and his wicked instruments We count it a lamentable thing to see the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee so great that so soone as euer Christ and his Gospell appeare they bend all their might against it seeking all meanes to quench the light thereof and vtterly to banish it From hence doe spring all vprores and tumults in the Church We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Gospell of Christ that the wicked world cannot abide it if it were of the world the world would loue his owne but because it is not of the world therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make doth rise vp against it for Satan will not bee dispossessed of his hold without great stur The strong man armed which kéepeth his house Matth. 12. must first be bound before his house cā be spoyled When there shall be no diuell no wicked ones no kingdome set vp against the kingdom of God whē Christ shall haue none enemies then the Gospell may come foorth in peace without troubles tumults sects errors and such like But so long as all those do remaine wherefore should the Gospell lose any glorie because these things follow it nay why shuld it not bee so much the more glorious that it doth breake through all these things and by it Christ doth rule in the midst of his enemies When the Prophet foretolde that the stone which the builders refused Psal 110. was become the head of the corner he addeth Psal 118. this is the Lords doing and it is marueilous in our eyes So this is the Lords doing and it is most marueilous in our eyes that so many cruell persecutions doe follow the Gospell and yet cannot banish it so many heapes or rather floods of monstrous errors do euen as it were flow ouer it to couer it to corrupt
it to abolish it and yet doth still breake forth as bright and pure as before So soone as Christ was borne persecution arose and the children were cruelly murthered Paul and the rest of the Apostles do not so soone go foorth to preach Matth. 2. but the false prophets are at their héeles Cease therfore ye wicked wretches to blaspheme Christ and his Gospell because such things follow they bée not the fruits of the Gospell nor they doe not spring out of it but they be the enemies thereof which do alwaies pursue it Make a reconciliation betwéene Christ and the diuell if yée will haue the Gospell go quietly Now let a wise man way this reason the word of God which is the word of saluation of life of grace our light our shield the foode of our soules can not be set forth but there follow troubles and errors therfore it is good to kéepe it vnknowne and not to let the people haue any sight thereof All the world may see that ye haue conspired with the diuell are become instruments to fulfill his desire for he couereth by those euils to banish the trueth and to holde men in blindnes and all kinde of errors which they bée by nature full of and so to bring all to hell and you performe his will in crying out against the sacred Scriptures and seeking to burie them Pa. Nay you haue consulted with the diuell like vnnaturall children to seeke the ouerthrow of your mother the holy Church and to dishonour the vicar of Christ Pro. We bring all our consultation out of Gods holy word for the vpholding and maintaining of our holy mother the true Catholike Church and spouse of Christ against the filthie whore of Babylon and against Antichrist the great vicar of hell Pa. I may say the like against your side and so we may play at Tenice vntill we bee both wearie and part as wise as we began Pro. I say nothing against yout but that which the word of GOD doth plainly shew You haue no colour to say the like against vs sauing that your shameles faces haue made ye bolde to speake all kinde of lyes Pa. Great brags ye make of prouing out of the Scriptures Where doe the Scriptures tell ye that the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist You can make the Scriptures serue for your turne in any matter whatsoeuer Pro. Wée brag no more of the Scriptures then that which is manifestlie prooued by them we make them serue none other turne then the Lorde hath appoynted them for The Scriptures doe not in flat speeches say that the Pope or the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist yet neuerthelesse they set a brand vpon his forehead and describe him in such sort that euery man which hath eyes may easily know him and as perfectly know him to be Antichrist as a man may know an egge to be an egge Pa. I haue read the Scriptures and know what they speake concerning Antichrist and yet could neuer finde that brand which you speake of nor such a description as should paint out the Pope to be Antichrist You are marueilous fellowes you can make somewhat of nothing you are so cunning that ye can draw water out of a flint Pro. You haue read the Scriptures and so haue your fellowes euen all the Popish shauelings and ye know they speake of Antichrist whom you beléeue shal come you cannot find that brand or marke or such a description of Antichrist as should belong to the Pope and that causeth ye to pronounce that wee make somewhat of nothing c. because it is not like that so many great Cardinals Bishops Abbots Monkes and Friers should reade and reade againe in the Scriptures and not sée the Pope to be Antichrist if he be so marked that he may easily bee knowne This may seeme strange but I tell yée it is no marueile for yée are all blinde as béetles The Scribes the Pharisies the Sadduces and all the learned among the Iewes did reade Moses the Prophets and studied them deuoutly looked for the Messias which was promised and described there and yet when he came they were so farre off from knowing him that they did kill him and fulfilled the voyces of the Prophets euen so fareth it with you ye reade what maner of one Antichrist should be and what he should doe and yet ye are so blinde that ye fulfill it in helping him to murther the Saints The Iewes could not know Christ because they looked for a trim Christ and he came base and poore You haue also deuised a popish fable of Antichrist which doth so sticke in your heads that ye cannot sée the notes and marks of the very Antichrist indéede Pa. Goe to goe to let vs see your great skill and what your scriptures will be whereby ye will shew this thing I feare me we shall haue but slender conclusions Pro. When ye haue tried them then giue iudgement and so although yee should iudge falsly yet yee shall not bee altogether so rash Will ye confesse that S. Paul 2. Thess 2. and S. Iohn in the Reuelation doe describe and set forth Antichrist Pa. That I will for I suppose no man will denie it but what are ye the better that which S. Paul doth speake and that which Saint Iohn hath written as concerning Antichrist may more fitly be applied to you then to vs. Pro. If it may as fitly be applied to vs as to you nay I will say further if it may be applied to any but to you let vs be counted heretikes Pa. Saint Paul sayth that the day of the Lord should not come except there came first an apostasie or falling away Doth not this touch you Let al men iudge who are fallen away we or you Are we fallen from you or you from vs Haue we made the departing or haue you Our Church hath alwaies stood fast and vnmoueable you haue rent your selues from vs by what reason can any man say that they haue made the apostasie which haue alwaies and do still keepe their standing and not rather those which are gone out from vs to fulfill that which S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. They went out from vs because they were not of vs. Pro. You would shift this thing from your selues and lay it vpon vs but it cleaueth so fast to your hands that it will not off Ye goe about by a subtill cauillation to bléere the eyes of simple men Wee confesse wee haue made the departure from you and not you from vs because you had departed from the trueth and true Church and had led vs out of the way of trueth vnto which wée are now agayne by Gods gracious goodnesse returned You say your Church hath alwaies stoode stedfast and vnmoueable and therefore hath not made the departing It is true if wee respect place and succession of Bishops but what doth that help ye when ye are departed from the faith which thing ye might and haue done without
to forbid the images doe disproue not onely the worshipping but also the very making For why doth Moses tell them ye heard the voyce of words when God spake but yee saw no similitude Why doth Esay set forth the incomprehensible greatnes of the Lord but to conclude as he doth that there can no similitude be made of God And therefore this conclusion doth stand sure that images in the Scripture and idols bee all one And therefore the Papists do but iuggle when they shift their hands of idolatrie in this maner we doe not worship idols we do but serue images Ours be the images of the true God and we take them not to bee any more then images If this would haue serued the turne the Israelites might haue answered to Moses and Esay well enough Pa. Are ye of the minde that euery picture or image of God is forbidden to bee made although a man doe not worship it Doth the Scripture say any such thing Pro. I must néedes be of that minde when I haue the words of the cōmandement Thou shalt not make c. and not onely those places which I did alleage with reasons to forbid the making but also other reasons as namely that GOD dwelleth in light which none can come vnto whom neuer man saw neither can sée as S. Paul saith Againe 1. Tim. 6. Acts 17. the same Apostle telleth that the Godhead is not like siluer or golde c. Againe God is incorruptible man is mortall which reason is vsed in the 1. chap. to the Romanes Sundry things may bée spoken to shew that an image is a teacher of lyes and therefore accursed and abominable before God For it is wicked to lye of a man but most abominable to transforme God into an heape of lyes as when a man saith this is the picture of God then must it be taken to be like God or els why is it his image more thē another thing these lyes then are in it God is inuisible this is séene God is aliue this is dead God is incomprehensible for the heauen of heauens cannot containe him this is contained in a small roome God is almightie this hath no power God is glorious and incorruptible this is subiect to rust and corruption yea to conclude it is nothing but lyes because it doth neither in shape because God is a spirit and that is a grosse substāce neither in any property set forth that which is in God but the quite contrary If any should picture your Pope like a dog or a toade ye would not take it well and yet hee is liker to either of these then the Lord is to any image yée doe more disgrace him when ye picture him like any creature then ye can doe to any man to picture him like a toad Pa. What though it bee not like him in some poynts is it therefore to bee condemned If men should worship it that were euil but we worship that which it doth represent Pro. I am out of doubt that ye worship that which the image doth represent that is not God for it doth not represēt him in any point but it is the diuell who is the father of lyes and therefore the father of images which are full of abominable lyes But you papists haue a prety conueiance when ye beare men in hād that Idolaters are they either which worship false gods or which worship the images themselues of the true God As though either the heathen men were so grosse or the Idolaters among the Iewes as to take the image it selfe to be God Those are poore men which know not that Pa. The Iewes did worship the calfe it self and take it to be God The heathen did take their Idols to be Gods and therefore they did worship them Pro. To proue that these did not worship the idols themselues nor take them to bee gods a few reasons may serue For if it be shewed that the heathen did not then must it néedes follow that the Iewes did not vnlesse ye will make them which had more knowledge of God to be more brutish then the other Now for the heathen S. Paul saith Rom. 1. that which might bée knowne of God was manifest in them which he expresseth to bee the eternall power Godhead If then the sense of the Godhead could not bee rooted out of the hearts of these much lesse out of the hearts of the Iewes This thing is manifest in the heathen that beléeued the gods and goddesses to be in heauen therfore they thought as their writings do shew that oftentimes they came downe from heauen and appeared to them in the likenes of men and women I néede not recite particulars Pa. The heathen did beleeue that the idols were gods els why should S. Paul perswade Acts 19. that those were not gods which are made with hands The learned among the heathen did thinke as you say but not the multitude Pro. Although the heathen did know that the idols were not the very gods themselues yet this perswasion of S. Paul was not néedlesse because they did ascribe a certaine diuinitie vnto them they thought the gods and goddesses came downe into them and did there receiue honor Euen as you papists thought of your idols and therefore you would trudge a great way on pilgrimage As for the other excuse which ye make it is false for when Paul and Barnabas came to Lystra Acts 14. and had healed a man that was lame did not all the multitude cry out Gods are come downe vnto vs in the likenes of men They took Barnabas to be Iupiter and Paul to be Mercurie And thē Iupiters priest came to haue offered sacrifice vnto them as he had done to the idoll The Iewes therfore which had séene the wonders which God wrought in Egypt in the red sea which had heard him speak out of the fire with so great terror could not bee so brutish as to think the Calfe which they saw Aaron make to be the God indéed which had brought them out of Egypt but the image to represent the same God whom they ment to worship in it Where the foolish papists may see that in this foule idolatrie of the Iewes they neither did worship the idoll it self neither any false gods You doe worse then they because ye worship the idols of those which are no gods as of the virgin Mary and other Saints Pa. I tolde ye before that we doe not worship any image but the thing represented I sayd also that we doe not worship the Saints for wee giue not latria vnto them but dulia which you can not proue to be any where forbidden But you wil haue your owne saying to charge vs with what ye lust Pro. We charge ye not with any thing but that which is easie to be proued I haue shewed that the grosse idolaters among the heathen did not take the very image to be God neither did worship it but that which
it did represent And now I tell ye that as ye play the beasts that way so now ye play the part of subtil fooles which in seducing others deceiue your selues For this difference which ye make betwéene latria and dulia is not found in the scriptures And besides that the word of God doth forbid to giue dulian to any but God Pa. You haue set down two things which ye will neuer be able to proue the one that ye say there is no such difference between latria and dulia the other that dulia is to be giuen only to God If ye cā proue these two let vs see a peece of your cūning Pro. Our Sauiour Christ is a very competent Iudge in this matter and he vseth the one word for the other For where it is said in Moses Deut. 6. and also 10. Thou shalt feare the Lord thy God and him shalt thou serue he doth expresse it in Matth. 4. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God him onely shalt thou serue I cite it to this end to shew that where Moses hath set downe tagnabod Christ doth translate it by the Euangelist latreuscis which is suffcient to shew that he put no difference betwéene them To proue that dulia is forbidden to images we néede goe no further then to the commandement where he doth forbid to make them and then he saith Thou shalt not bow to them neither shalt thou serue thē for he vseth the verbe gnabad I might alleage sundrie other places as Psalm 97. where he saith They shall be confounded gnobede pesel which serue the grauen image You blind Papists would pluck out mēs eyes by your vaine shifts and foolish distinctions you make a difference where there is none If euer there were abominable and foule idolatrie committed in the world either by Iewes or Pagans or other it is among you ye goe no doubt as farre as euer did any Now a daies the papists at least a number of them doe waxe more craftie they will not with their forefathers alow any thing to the idols themselues but al to the things which they represent wheras in times past the controuersie was whether the image was to be worshipped with the same worship that the first paterne that it did represent was Some of your great clarks did affirme the one way and some the other for one part defendeth that the images of the Trinitie and of the Crosse were to bee worshipped with latria diuine worship the other part doth reply that latria is proper only to God and therefore not to be giuen to the images they must adore thē with some lower worship But shift how yée can agrée or disagrée among your selues the holy word of God standeth still condemning and accursing ye as detestable Idolaters For say what ye can ye ascribe and giue worship vnto them Pa. Haue ye by this proued that dulia is to be giuen only to God Pro. I suppose that it is proued when the Scripture doth make no difference but vseth latria and dulia in one sense For ye all confesse now that diuine worship is to be giuen only to God Ye take dulia for a diuine seruice or adoration doth it not then follow that God is robbed of his right who is our Lord and wee his seruants Now all may sée that are not obstinate that the Romish Church is not the true Church of Christ because ye commit idolatrie I doe therefore conclude that al which will haue saluation must remoue themselues from ye and returne home to the ancient and true Catholike Church Pa. I wonder with what face ye can speake thus ye would haue men depart from our church as you say to the ancient true Catholike church when as ye cannot shew vs that antiquitie for masters it is well knowne how yong your Church is To the ancient Church we would not deny to returne if we were out of the way but to you which are newly sprung vp we may not Pro. It is a strange thing that men are so wilfull we doe beléeue all the doctrine faith which the Prophets and Apostles taught and beléeued we cleaue only to this admit none other and yet your blind eyes cannot sée what antiquitie we call ye vnto Wee are but men of late yeares if the doctrine which wée teach be no elder I would wish ye not to beléeue it But seeing we bring nothing but that which was from the beginning wee may boldly say that ours is the ancient Catholike Church and therefore all those which be not members of it cannot haue saluation As for you looke how farre ye are gone from the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles so farre are ye remoued from the true Catholike Church Your doctrine is contrary to theirs your Pope is nothing like Christ and his Apostles Pa. I see that I cannot remoue you nor you shal not remoue me I must euen leaue ye as I found you I am sorie that ye are so far spent yet I hope one day to see ye of a better minde For a day will come when this geere will be better looked vpon Pro. I may not be remoued from that which I know most certainly to be the trueth vnto that which is most cursed lies And as for you I leaue ye to the Lord no hope I see to winne yée for the day which ye hope for wée sée that the Lorde hath hitherto miraculously disappoynted yée and hath brought to light your traiterous purposes Our hope is that the same Lorde will still protect our gracious Quéene and her honorable counsellors Wonderfull great blessings hath GOD bestowed vpon vs by her and by them For which as many as haue any drop of grace cannot but giue heartie thankes and praise to the Lord and sure I am that vnlesse our sinnes doe prouoke him he is ready to bestow greater Although a great number of ye euen as it were very diuels incarnate doe enterprise and gape for her destruction and the destruction of those ouer whom she doth spread her wings to couer them Al good subiects within this realme both to GOD and their prince are bound in conscience not onely to curse hate and detest from the bottome of their hearts your hellish and cruell practises but also to lift vp their hands and hearts to heauen and to powre out continuall supplications to the Lord for the preseruation of her Maiestie and her Counsell Desiring God to guide them with his spirit to doe nothing but that which is good and pleasing in his sight also to giue them al gifts of wisedome and courage and to multiplie their dayes with true honour in this life and eternall blessednes in the life to come If men did sée how néedfull this prayer is at this time that this realme the poore Church of God in this realme may be in safetie it would cause them in stead of a few ordinarie colde prayers in this behalfe to send forth strong cries into the eares of the Lord and to powre out riuers of teares to moue him to pitie and compassion For when that greasie priest of Italy doth set ye on to spoyle vs of all peace both for body and soule and to take from vs