be purged Doubtlesse Syr Edward the iustest man falleth seauen times a day (l) prou 24. he that saith he hath no sinne light and veniall as S. Augustine expoundeth is a lyar (m) 1. IoaÌ„ 1. who can say that his hart is pure from vaine impertinent thoughts His tongue cleane from idle vnprofitable speach His hands not defiled at least with omissions and slouth and negligences in Gods seruice Doe you see your Iust cannot be in this life without Dust 25. But you answere indeed S. Paul saith haec fuistis but he addeth sed abluti estis but you are washed but you are sanctified but you are iustified in the name of the Lord Iesus and by the spirit of our God This is indeed to alleadge Scriptures for your purpose You speake of washing and cleansing yet except you haue washed away with wine from your tongue this foolish not to say impious abusing of Gods word I dare say your lippes still need to be purged which you seeldome wet I feare in the bath of teares and pennance Are you not skillfull at Scriptures that apply that sentence which was spoken of (o) 1. Cor. 6.11 without which grosse synnes as whoredome theft extorsion and the like which the Corinthians before baptisme committed by baptisme were cleansed from them to the daily veniall offences without which the iust man doth not liue But faith is say you (p) pag. 85. sperandarum rerum hypostasis the ground of thinges to be hoped for from Christ wheras we will haue it thus fides est ferendarum rerum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ground of things that are to be suffered by our selues Thus you I perceaue your Protestant faith is very weak we must not lay any great burden on it of things to be suffered by your selues lesse it breake but of things to be suffered by others as much as we will you can easily endure that others suffer so you be well your selues I much feare that this your faith fainteth in the assured expectation of eternall punishments for grieuous synnes which cannot indure the beliefe of temporall payne for lesser offences I do not now wonder you haue reiected Fastings Pilgrimages Disciplines Hayrecloathes Lying on the ground rysing in the night to pray and sing psalmes to God liuing in perpetuall Chastity wresling with the lustes of the flesh No maruayle I say though you reiect these things your faith is not a ground of pennance nor of any mortifications to be vndergon by your selues 26. Christ must suffer all for you you will not be partners with him in his Passion yet you will share with him in his comforts you will not by your good will haue your finger ake for his loue nor tast the least drop of vinager to purg your sinnefull humours yet will you be as bould as any other except his Iustice keep you back to put your nose into the sweet cupp of his Glory But true faith is a grouÌ„d not only of hope but also of feare As it teacheth vs to expect a full reward if we fullfill Gods commaundements so likwise to be sure of heauie punishments if we contemne them As Christ came downe from Heauen to dye for vs on the Crosse so faith telleth vs we must take vp our crosse a small taske of sorrow and pennance and march after him to Heauen True faith is not an idle beholder either of Heauen or Christ but vrgeth vs to walke by good workes towards the one and by pennance to feele some part of the passion of the other yet is faith defined the ground of things to be hoped for not of things to be suffered by vs or of things suffered by Christ because Christs sufferings for vs and ours in loue and imatation of him are but meanes to conduct vs to God the blessed end hope aymeth at for hope and faith being Theologicall vertues haue for their obiects not Christs sufferings nor our owne but God alone other things faith and hope doth regard only as they are pertinent to God These answeres Syr Edward I feare are to graue both for your head and faith neither will the one vnderstand nor the other beleeue my discourse I labour in vaine either to build pennance or Purgatory on your faith or to beate true learning and diuinity into your head 27. Yet you go forward preaching very grauely to leaue our bitter Purgations and meâ—ily drinke away our sinnes laying all on Christs back S. Paul say you (q) pag. 85. 86. thought it inough to know Christ and him crucified but he is a dullard in your Schoole that knoweth not Purgatory and how he must there be purged As if the Lords Sommer-liuery of euerlasting life were giuen vs only with this prouiso that vnlesse we play the Taylers our selues and make it vp by our Purgations it must neuer come to our backs Thus you Much do you feare I see least you be forced to play the Tayler with a discipline to measure therwith your shoulders and out of the broad-cloath of Christs merits with that sharp payre of sheeres to cut out a Purgatory garment for your owne back Yet I dare say S. Paul was such a Tayler who did not beate the ayre but chastice his body (r) 1. Cor. â— still carried about with him the Mortification of Iesus Christ (Å¿) 2. Cor. 4 that he had the Markes of his Passion in his flesh (t) Gal. 6. to which participation with Christ in paine he may seeme to exhort when he bids vs feele the same in our selues that we see in Christ Iesus (u) Philip. 2. who subiected himself to the death of the Crosse What more frequent in this Blessed Apostle then to exhort meÌ„ to the loue of the Crosse to suffer for Christ to praying fasting giuing of almes and other Penitentiall workes 28. This is indeed to know by experience Christ crucified wherof you talk in the ayre I assure you that a discipline or a whipping for a quarter of an houre would make you conceaue more deeply of Christs bitter Passion better vnderstaÌ„d the great loue he bare you in deliuering you from eternall payne giue you to know your Sauiour either fastened to the Pillar or to the Crosse more perfectly then euer did any Protestants Sermon you heard or meditation you made in your life Had you euer tasted any drop of the sweetnes of Christ crucified you would neuer haue sayd reioycing in your competent Patrimony (x) Counters p. 65. Ditescit cui Christus dulcescit He becometh rich to whom Christ crucified becommeth sweet Such sweetnes did not S. Paul feel in Christ by whose crosse the world to wit riches honour were crucified (z) ad Galat 6. that is were things most hatefull to him The sweetnes of the Crosse wrought otherwise in the blessed Apostles who tastinge thereof left voluntarily and gaue all to the poore Look vpon the Primitiue Saints (a) Antony Hilarion Benedict others you shall
chiefest Bishops or Patriarks of the East were either Authours or their fautors This was the cause that often the Orthodoxall Bishops of Greece in defence of truth were forced to fly for succour to the Romaine as did Athanasius and Paulus the one Patriarke of Alexandria the other of Constantinople and others (h) Sozom. l. 1. c. 7. To end which dissentions by his Authority Supreme vnder God vpon Earth ouer the flock of Christ he hid procure that Councells might be called in Greece the discipline of the Church requiring that Councells meete examine the cause and punish offenders where the fault was committed Soe that the cause why those Councells were kept in Greece not in Rome was the Purity of the one neuer falling into Heresie and the infelicity of the other neuer to be without inuentours of such monsters 15. This sinceritie likewise of Doctrine as Ruffinus noteth (i) Ruffin in expositione Symboli is the cause that the Church of Rome did neuer add any word or syllable to the Creed but kept the same entyre without addition which saith he happened not in other Churches because other Churches hauing had heresies sprong vp within their owne bowells did add some wordes to the Creed to crosse and meet with such errours which the Romane neuer did nor had need to doe seeing no heresie had neuer beginning in it Thus Ruffinus wherefore seing the Roman Church caused those Councells to be held in Greece confirmed the same afterwards and their Creeds to be receaued through the whole Church who cā deny but we had those foundations of Faith more principally from the Roman then any other Church the Principall Sea from whence saith (k) l. 4. ep 8. S. Cyprian Priestly dignitie one great Pillar and Foundation of Christianity did flow Vnto which Tertullian (l) Praescr c. 31. Irenaeus (m) l. 3. c. 3. Optatus (n) l. 2. cōt Parmen Epiphanius (o) Haeres 27. S. Augustine (p) Epist 165. being vrged by Heretikes did fly as vnto the head deriving Scriptures Creeds and all other Ecclesiasticall traditions from them Wherefore I must thinke that many sick and sory feathers were in that Ministers head that caused you to call them rather Grecian then Roman Plumes though so light a word as Plumes applyed to so graue matters as Scriptures Creeds and Councells doth sauour of the leuity of your phrase 16. This leuity you shew in the prayses you giue to the Church no lesse then in the reproaches Thus you preach Who is he say (q) Lett. p. 67. you that saith not of the true Church with Augustine Non parua Ecclesiae auctoritas well doth her Modesty well doth her fidelitie deserue honorable esteeme she taketh not vpon her to controule the holy Scripture her Mother from whom she drew her first breath she openeth not her mouth till her mother hath deliuered her mynde she commeth not of her owne head with any sleeuelesse arrant Thus you discourse describing the Spouse of Christ and Mother of Christians as a mannerly young Mayd brought vp in Luthers schoole You demaund who is he that doth not say with S. Augustine Great is the authority of the Church And yet you your self are the Man who call that Authority of the Church which S. Augustine in that very sentence reuerenceth as great and venerable idle and sleeuelesse like the Butcher that called for his knife he had in his mouth These are S. Augustines wordes (r) De cura pro mortuis c. 1. We read in the Books of Machabees that Sacrifice was offered for the dead but if this were no where read in the old Scriptures yet ther is no small authoritie of the vniuersall Church which shineth in this custome Behold S. Augustine calleth Doctrines deliuered by the Church without expresse Scripture great shining which you reuile and contemne 17. Thus you contradict the saying of S. Augustine whilst you would seeme to applaud it yet is not this contradiction so witlesse as is your Assertion impious that Doctrines and Decrees of the Church not deliuered in Scriptures are sleeuelesse the perpetuall virginity of the B. Mother after her sacred birth of the Sonne of God you seeme so to beleeue that you would stop your eares against any that should dispute therof (ſ) Lett. p. 39. but where is this written in Scripture what is it but a perpetuall traditiō of Gods Church S. Augustine sayth (t) de Baptism cont Donatist l. 2. c. 7. that it cannot be clearly proued out of Scripture that Heritikes returning to the Church should not be rebaptized yet the Church hath forbidden the same Shall we tearme this prohibition sleeuelesse That these and these bookes be Canonicall and the other Apocriphall where it is taught in Scripture Now he doth not see that Scriptures are the chiefest points of our Faith contayning the fountaine and as it were principles of faith Doe but read your learned Authour Hierome Zanchius who will giue a newer tune then that your Minister piped vnto you That Authour famous in your Cōgregations teacheth (u) Tom. 4. l. 1. de lege Dei that diuers vnwritten traditions concerning doctrine and manners are in the Church which are not only profitable (x) Non solum vtiles Ecclesiae sed ferè necessariae saith he but in a manner necessary which haue their beginning from the holy Ghost which we must reuerence and obey else we contemne the Authority of the Church which is a thing saith he very displeasing vnto God how then doe you preach that the Church neuer openeth her mouth till Mother Scripture haue deliuered her mind 18. I confesse that this your Authour goeth a step backward saying that these vnwriten traditions are not of equall authoritie with the written word (z) Paris authoritatis non sunt cum verbo in sacris literis reuelato but therin he doth cleerely contradict himselfe For the Canon of the Scripture being as he confesseth an vnwritten tradition how can any thing contayned in Scripture be more certaine then some vnwritten traditions are Can any man be more certaine of a truth proued out of Scripture then he is that his proofes are indeed Scripture One may see this doth imply in termes Wherefore great cause had your Doctour Field (a) Of the Church p. 238. to grant that Papists haue good reason to equall their Traditions to the written word if they can proue any such vnwritten verities and his proofe is pregnant because not the writing giueth things their authoritie but the worth and credit of him that deliuereth them though by word and liuely voyce alone 19. Now put these two sayings of your two Doctours togeather and make an argument for traditions let Doctour Field giue the Maior vnwritten verities can they be proued are equall to the written word let Zanchius add the Minor but diuers vnwritten verities and traditions profitable and in a manner necessary for the Church both
only lawfull but also meritorious for a man to kill himselfe First ne subditus fieret peccatoribus Secondly ne in contemptum Dei Caeli eius vita in ludibrio traheretur He concludes Some thinke S. Augustines saying which here followeth in the glosse is thus to be vnderstood Thus writ you not very sincerely relating Lira's doctrine but because it is not to the purpose I omit to discouer you At the naming of S. Augustines saying dreaming that it must needs be your Goose or Woodcock your teeth water to haue it in your mouth O say you that I could meet with the saying of Augustine that I omitted to cite doth Lira say it followeth here in the glosse then will I presume so farre vpon your patience as to write it out Thus you tune your instrument before you play Take heed Sir you abuse not those worthy Gentlemens patience whom you inuite to be your hearers after all these preambles if you sound at last the harsh Hebrew harp of Lyra for the sweet latin Lute of S. Augustine you will giue them iust cause to laugh at your folly 26. The saying you cite for S. Augustines out of Lyra (l) in 2. Mach. c. 14. is this Vnde scriptura huius libri quae recepta est ab Ecclesia ad legendum pro informatione morum non videtur sic Raziam arguere sed commendare de suiipsius interfectione si autem praedicta non sufficiant ad eius excusationem dici potest quòd hoc fecit per specialem instinctum Spiritus sancti Whereupon the Scripture of this book which is receaued by the Church to be read for information of manners doth not seeme here to reproue Razias but rather to commend him for killing of himself and if the aforesaid excuse do not suffice it may be said he did that fact by speciall instinct of the holy Ghost Thus you write calling me Sophister and dizzi-braynd Ismaelite for saying that it was far from S. Augustines grauity to read the Machabees with so little sobriety as to think that Razias was praised for killing himself yet say you whether S. Augustine was of this mind or no let it lye vpon Lyra's report 27. Noe Syr this false report will lye vpon your selfe except you will confesse the truth that some Minister suggested this lye vnto you to disgrace S. Augustine you haue couched such falshood and follie togeather that I know not which I should first and most accuse But with your patience I will touch them both but your folly first For if this be S. Augustines sentence who doth not see that your argument to proue the Machabees not to be Scripture is not worth a rush For if Canonicall Scripture giue leaue to a man to kill himselfe by the especiall commaund and instinct of the holy Ghost if Razias killed himselfe by such a speciall precept what did he against Canonicall Scripture Why should not the booke of the Machabees be sacred though they praise Razias for this fact as well as the booke of Iudges where Sampson is praised who did the like Spiritus latenter hoc iusserat sayth S. Augustine (m) l. 1. de Ciuit. c. 21. qui per eum miracula faciebat The spirit that did Miracles by Sampson secretlie commaunded him to kill himselfe Let vs put your sillogisme into forme as you desire this it is Noe Canonicall booke doth cōmaund or praise killing ones selfe without speciall instinct of the holy Ghost But Razias killed himself by that speciall instinct and for this respect is praised in the booke of Machabees ergo the booke of Machabees is not Canonicall Scripture I dare say you need not write Goose or Woodcock ouer the head of this argumēt euery one wil perceaue the feature you haue drawne though vnderneath you say nothing 28. This is your ignorance but now your Ministers falshood is yet more notorious admirable for you skip ouer the true sentence of S. Augustine which Lyra citeth which is also cited in the Glosse indeed found in his workes and you bring Lira's owne words and illations which stand many lines after for the verie saying of this Father Thus Lyra writeth in that place Some say that the saying of S. Augustine which is found in the Glosse is thus to be vnderstood Doe you long Syr Edward for S Augustines saying Harken vnto Lyra which doth sound it (n) August l. 1. de ciuit c. 21. His exceptis quae lex generaliter iusta ipse fons iustitiae Deus specialiter iubet occidi quisquis hominum vel seipsū vel quemlibet alium occiderit homicidij crimine innectitur Those excepted whom iust lawes in generall or God the fountaine of iustice doth specially commaund to be killed what man soeuer doth make away with himself or any other is guiltie of the crime of murther This is S Augustines saying which you may finde also verbatim in the Glosse in that very page And this saying some did vnderstand that when one killeth himselfe to the end that he may not be drawne by torments to an Idolatrous religion or not be mocked to skorne in contempt of his God that he sinneth not because Iustice in such cases did allow of it 29. Which interpretation is both false and against the minde of S. Augustine who doth often teach and largly proue against the Circumcellians that in such cases killing ones selfe is vnlawfull (o) Quicūque hoc in seipsis perpetrauerūt animi magnitudine fortasse mirandi non sapientiae sanitate laudandi sunt l. 1. de Ciuit. c. 22. that Razias was not cōmēdable for that fact which the Scripture did report not praise Looke into the Glosse vpon that place which is taken out of S. Augustine this peece whereof Lyra citeth you shall not find so much as a word in defence of Razias How can this corruption be excused from witting falshood to passe ouer S. Augustines saying so obuious that lay in the way Was he not a nimble foxe (p) Illa leui velox superabat deuia cursu sūmaque transibat positarum lina plagarum that could fetch such a leape ouer a marble piller into a long peece of ground But to whose charge shall I lay it Your Printer is all readie loaden your Minister I must not meddle with if I touch your Person I shall heare you rage (q) pag. 2. that like a shrewish distracted male-content I scrach kicke spurne hale teare men noble by discent eminent in places profound in iudgment skilfull in tongues famous for learning vertue and experience in trauailes by which periphrases you seeme to discribe your selfe What shall I doe but follow an ancient custome which was to beat the Minstrell when the Cooke did amisse (r) Tibicen vapulat You compare your selfe to (ſ) pag. 61. Gracchus who came not at any time say you to make an Oration without a Minstrell who by the sound of his Pipe did set him a right
this world is forgiuē in the world to come that they may not be afflicted with eternall torments Thus he Now is S. Augustine doubtfull either of Purgatorie or of the exposition of this place for pardon in the next world Hath this Doctour in his vnfoulding the words of Christ turned vp Nody Or rather your Minister that dealt your Cardes vsing foure false and deceiptfull trickes concerning this testimony of Viues may he not be thought to haue turned vp for you all the Nodies and Knaues in the bunch 8. But this your gaming Metaphore is not so iniurious to these Blessed Saintes as it is blasphemous against the holy Ghost whose thrice venerable writings did you reuerence in your hart more then the follies of your owne braine your pen would haue trembled to haue called that exposition Nody which so many graue Fathers without the contradiction of any do peremptorily affirme to containe his meaning What can be sacred and certaine amongst Christians if an vnlearned Knight may be permitted to deride that which the most famous Deuines and Fathers of former ages do deliuer as an vndoubted verity and Gods infallible word It is true that Fathers to proue this or that Catholike verity may sometimes bring places of Scripture that haue other sense yea perhaps the sense that one or other doth giue may not be the best although the doctrine therby proued be true which is to erre according to the Analogy of the Place not of Faith A distinction you vnderstand not yet when many Fathers of the Church agree in the same exposition of Scripture without the Contradiction of any the same is to be thought the vndeniable sense of that place For which cause Caluin cannot be excused of hereticall rashnes (h) Caluin comment in c. 10. Io. who dareth expound this Text of Scripture Ego et Pater vnum sumus I and the Father are one of vnity of Consent and Will not of nature and substance adding that the Ancients did abuse the same to proue the Consubstantiality of the Sonne of God Happily the text cannot be so strongly vrged but Caluin◠Arrianizing wit may find some plausible euasion to escape the force therof Yet seing the vniforme consents of Fathers haue canonized that meaning of the wordes he can not be a true Christian that will not neyther was Caluin that did not submit his Iudgment therunto For the vniforme consent of Fathers doth not require that euery one none excepted should expresly teach the same doctrine for then scarse in any point could this vniforme consent be proued seeing all write not of the same point but it sufficeth that many haue taught it in diuers ages without contradiction of the rest and such is the exposition of this place for Purgatory and for the dead in the next world Neither is S. Chrysostomes exposition you brought (k) Lett. p. 41. contrary vnto this that the synne against the holy Ghost shall not be forgiuen in this world nor in the world to come that is Non effugient poenam they shall surely be punished in this wold and in the world to come For first it is not sure and certayne that vniuersally all such synners are punished in this world Many tymes they florish prosper and spend their whole liues in great worldly ioylity as diuers Persecutors Sodomites Apostata's haue done which you name as synnes irremissible and call their Authors Synners in grayne Besides synne neuer to be remitted is more then to be punished in this world and in the next For as you heard S. Augustine say some endure temporall punishments in this life only and some in the next life only some in both so that one may be punished both in this and in the world to come and yet haue his sinne forgiuen at last The meaning then of S. Chrysostome is they shal be punished in this world without pardon and in the next likewise without remissiion Whence it doth follow some may be punished in the next with Purgatory Clemency as Boaethius speaketh (l) Lib. 4 praef 4. So that this exposition as I said though it be not taught expresly by euery Father yet is it not contradicted by any These things Syr you should consider before you speake you should wipe away Tobacco smoke from your eyes when a Card is turned vp before you cry Nody least often as now you haue done you lay the foule Epithete on the holy Ghost indeed that true King of Harts who moued those Fathers to expound the wordes of Christ for the remission of sinnes in the world to come 9. You oppose against our Catholike expositiō another deuised by your self or your Ministers wherin you do greatly delight You will grant sinnes pardoned in the next world and yet not yield one penny to our Purgatory box In this world say you (m) Lett. pag. 50. 51. sinnes are fully pardoned quoad remissionis applicationem by the application of pardon vnto them and the selfe same sinnes may and shal be pardoned in the next per remissionis promulgationem by the proclamation of pardon This distinction you thinke is the (n) p. 32. fiue fingers which you imagin will carry away the Set from the Fathers yet I dare say a man that hath bin conuersant in Scriptures will iudge it no better then Nody First because it is a new deuise not backed by the authority of any Father which therfore may iustly be suspected For Scriptures are to be expounded according to the traditions of our ancestors not by our owne fancies as the Goulden paire of Grecian Doctors Basil and Gregory did who durst neuer follow therin their owne iudgments as Ruffinus o recordeth neither would you Scripturarū intelligentiam non ex propria praesumptione sed ex maiorū scriptis authoritate sequebantur whose wit and learning is not to be paralelled with theirs were you as humbly conceited of your self as you haue cause Secondly because you neither do nor can bring any expresse testimony of Scripture to confirme this your new fancy nor any text that may giue the least colour or probability vnto it You cite the words of S. Iohn that the vnbelieuer is already condemned yet say you he must come to a second doome so is it with the belieuer Albeit he hath full remission granted (p) c. 3. v 18 and his pardon sealed in this life yet he must haue the same proclaimed at the generall Goal-deliuery in the world to come in which sense he may as truly be said to haue his sinnes pardoned as the other his condemned 10. Thus you preach very learnedly as you think though God knowes to little purpose For first you neither do nor can tel what is the first doome the vnbelieuer vndergoeth by which he is damned in this world and after which he must come to a second The ancient Fathers expound that place not that he is indeed sentenced in this world but is said to be condemned and iudged
are pardoned in the world to come 15. Whence we further inferre that those synnes were not fully and perfectly pardoned in this life For the synnes that were wholy pardoned in this life need no remission in the next and if any be remitted in the next such they are as were not at least fully pardoned in this And this is the difference betwixt being a Scholler in Eaton and a fellow in Christs-Colledg and Remission of synne in this world and Pardon thereof in the next because to be a scholler in Eaton doth not repugne with being afterward fellow of Christs-Colledg whereas full Remission of synne in this life doth not agree with Remission in the next For how shall that be truly forgiuen that is wholy forgiuen before So that though one may not inferre he was fellow of Christs-Colledg ergo he was not before Scholler in Eaton yet we may and must inferre this synne is remitted in the next world ergo the same was not formally fully and perfectly forgiuen in this present life Thus your owne examples discouer your ignorance thus you are hampered in your owne snare 16. No lesse vaine is your other logicall assault where you thinke you put vs to a plunge by returning our Paralogisme as you tearme it vpon vs. Thus you dispute (b) Lett. p. 34. The sinne of the Holy Ghost shall neuer be remitted quoad poenam aut quoad culpam in this world nor in the world to come which is say you repugnant to the position of our owne sect recorded by Suarez whose wordes you cite (c) Tom. 4. d. 45. §. â— p. â—57 Thus you returne arguments as children vse to do stones they are not able well to lift which they let fall on there head or foote First it is not against the doctrine of our Church that some sinnes are forgiuen in the world to come quoad Culpam Poenam both according to the guilt of sinne and according to the guilt of paine yea Catholike Deuines commonly teach that veniall sinnes are remitted in the next world according to both guilts namely Suarez in that very place you cited though of mortall sinnes he saith that remissio mortalium the remission of mortall sinne in the next world cannot be vnderstood quoad Culpam according to the sinne but only quoad poenam according to some penaltie due to it Behold how well you vnderstand the Authors you name You had greate reason doubtlesse to saie that you vnderstand the most artificiall conueiance of the best of our workes (d) Counters p. 58. who cannot read without mistaking six lynes of a Scholasticall Author 17. Secondly your Retortion is of no force against that Position did we hold it For out of the former text of Scripture is gathered clerly that some sinnes are remitted in the world to come but what those sinnes be veniall or mortall likewise the maÌ„ner of the pardon whether it be according to the sinne or penaltie only or both cannot hence be proued but out of other passages of Gods word these verities are to be searched To make this cleare by your example Should your Gentleman saie my sonne shall goe to schoole either at Eaton or Oxford one may inferre that in eyther of these places some kind of learning is taught but not that Grammar is taught in Oxford Logik in Eaton or è contra Should a young gentleman saie that he will neyther study in the Innes of Court nor in the Vniuersities one may inferre except the speach be senselesse that in both places studies are professed but he that would inferre that common lawe is studied in Oxford or diuinity professed in London were he not absurd Soe likewise the speach of Christ doth only signifie in generall Remission in the world to come not distinctly explicate the manner thereof nor the qualitie of the sinnes that are there purged 17. Fayne would you find some Paralell in Scripture to this speach of our Sauiour that may seeme no lesse senselesse and idle then is this sensed in your manner For want of better you bring that speach of S. Matthew (e) c. 1. concerning Ioseph that he knew her not vntill she had brought forth her first-borne Sonne If out of this place say you (f) Lett. pag. 39. we should come vpon you ergo he knew her after she had borne him you would thinke that Blessed holy Virgin most irrecoÌ„peÌ„sably disparaged and yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seemeth to imply the same Thus you discourse thinking this hereticall and Heluidian inference not vnlike to that of the Fathers we stand vpon Yea say you Non ouum ouo similius one egg is not more like another But if euer I be so happy as to be at your table to which you seeme to inuite me I should be loath you be my caruer you are so apt to mistake and coÌ„found things which doe mainly differ as I might easily haue a Scorpion layd on my trencher insteed of an Egge The speach you bring out of S. Matthew He knew her not vntill she had brought forth her first-borne Sonne doth only expresse a truth that Ioseph did not know the Virgin till that time neither is any thing waÌ„ting or superfluous in this speach but in the other speach this sinne shal be foÌ„rgiuen neither in this world nor in the world to come the last clause therof is superfluous senslesse signifying no more then the former if there be no remission in the world to come as hath bene proued 19. Moreouer the denyall of some action vntill a certaine time doth not imply any necessary consequence therof afterward which may be proued by familiar examples in our commoÌ„ speach As if one say he neuer yielded vnto sinne til death it is coÌ„sequeÌ„t that after death he yielded vnto sinne The same may be shewed in a thousand places of Scripture God the Father saith to Christ Sit on my right hand vntill I make thine enemies a foote-stoole to thy feet (g) Psal 109. when this is done shall Christ loose his seat at his Fathers right hand Noe. So his Mother that was vntouched vntill she brought him forth ceased not to be a Virgin after her Childbirth Now noe exaÌ„ple can be brought out of the Scripture of a speach distinctiue that is that hath two partes or members where one of those particles is idle the second part implying noe more then the first Neither doth coÌ„mon sense or discretion practice or allowe such senseles pratling which may yet be further confirmed by diuers examples but one other shall suffice by which any iudicious Reader will easily perceiue a maine difference betwixt the Heluidian inference and Catholike deductioÌ„ from Scripture What thinke you Syr Edward of this speach The Virgin neuer committed mortall sinne from the first moment of her life vntill the very last thereof doth this speach sound vncouthly in a Christian eare Shall one infer Ergo after life she committed mortall sinne were not such an
Diuinity in his head or Christianity in his hart or Sobryetie in his tongue would haue accused Catholiks for esteeming the Ipsa dixit of the Church as much as the Pythagorians did the Ipse dixit of their Maister Why should not this Ipsa the Mother of Christians the Spousesse of the Holy Ghost this Pillar and Foundation of truth this daughter of God the Father washed with the bloud of his sonne that she might in her doctrine haue no blemish of errour Why should not her word I say be more esteemed of by her children then the saying of Pythagoras a Pagan Philosopher was with his Schollers I perceiue you do loue more then belieue the Feminine Gender perchance you suspect in the Church the fault you lay vpon that Sexe (o) Counters p. 52. with some ryme let them say with what reason Mulier nihil scit nisi quod ipsa cupit This makes you loath to submit your Iudgment vnto Ipsa dixit But you may be sure that the Dixit or Saying of the Church is neuer (p) vt maneat vobi cum in aeternū Ioan. 14. without the dixit of Gods spirit her Maister She hath the warrant of her Spouse that he will make her wordes good he that heareth you heareth me (q) Luc 10. to which her Commission he subscribeth with a dreadfull Curse He that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen (r) Luc. 18. Oh what glorious Fathers and Doctors could I name famous in former ages for Sanctity and learning that submitted their Iudgment to the sayings of the Church put their fingers to their mouth when she did gaine-say that they thought true prostrating their learned penns to be euer at the deuotion of her Censure How highly did they esteeme her Dixit her Iudgmēt her Word Let S. Augustine speake (l) de Baptis cont Donatist l. 17. c. 33. vel 53. I dare with the conscience of a secure voyce affirme saith he what in the Gouerment of our Lord Iesus Christ is established by consent of the vniuersall Church And againe (m) de Baptism cōt Donatist l. 4. c. 6 If he say something that doth say We follow what we receaue from the Apostles how much more strongly do we say we follow that which the Church did euer hold what no disputation could ouerthrow (n) Contra epist Fundam l. 5. what a Generall or plenarie Councell hath defined Thus S. Augustine doe you see what a Pythagorean Dixit what vncontrollable Authoritie he granteth to the Church 6. As litle Iudgment or Piety do you shew in your iest at the Ladies A. B. C as though the authoritie of the Church were not the Alphabet and Christ-Crosse-Row in which all Christiās ought and all ancient Christians did learne to reade and belieue the Scriptures The forenamed S. Augustine the Phenix of witts the Mirour of learning did he not learne in this booke Ego vero saith he Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae commoueret Auctoritas Truly I would not belieue the Ghospell did not the Churches authoritie moue me vnto it Why should any Lady or Lord Maister of Arts or Doctor disdaine to spell the Ghospell of Christ by the same letters such learning sanctity vsed 8. Shall I tell you your protestant Ladies (*) Has linguas qui nesciunt saepe necessariò hallucinantur VVhitak de sacra scriptura pag. 523. A. B. C For the old Testament those Hebrew Characters now you begin to learne (o) Counters p. 7. and the Greeke letters for the new which if they be ignorant of I assure them according to your (p) Nullū nos editionem nisi Haebraicū in vetere Graecā in nouo Testamēto authenticam facimus VVhitak controu 1. q. 2. p. 128. Churches Principles they cannot reade so much as a sillable that they may be certaine is Scripture They may reade the English translation you will say that is Scripture I deny the same to be Scripture except it be conformable to the Originall wherof those haue no meanes to be sure that cannot read nor vnderstand the two aforenamed learned tongues in which they were primarily written If you say they must belieue it vpon the word of your Church (q) Multi nesciunt literas tamēfidēsanā retinent expraedicatione pastorum Whitak de sacra scriptura p. 588. you bring them back vnto ipsa dixit and make them reade the letters of Christianitie in your Ministers horne booke Were it not better to stick to the Catholicke Ladies A. B. C. that fayre Christs-Crosse rowe which our famous auncestors did learne Cleaue to the authority of that Church which begun in the Apostles by perpetuall Succession of Bishops is deriued vnto this age * Illam Scripturā dicis non esse quam esse dicit vniuersa Ecclesia ab Apostolicis sedibus vsque ad praesentes Episcopos certa successione perducta l. 28. cont Faust c. 2. 8. But suppose one would be scholler to your Church hath she so much skill or any warrant not to erre as we may be sure she will not teach vs amisse Your selues say (r) The whole militant Church may erre as euery part therof Fulke in his answere to a Counterfayte Cath. p. 86. that she may erre and teach vs damnable doctrine For which when at the day of iudgment we shal be called to accompt to say our lessons we may be laughed to skorne loose the eternall reward and be punished for euer As it is insolent madnes to contradict the custome of the true Church (ſ) August Epist 118. ad Ianuarium so is it desperate madnes to follow the directions of such a Church which though we religiously belieue exactly obserue euen vnto death yet may we be perpetually damned But the Ladies of your Church learne forsooth of the spirit they trust to Ipse dixit who will teach them which is the Scripture They are the sheep of Christ and know his voyce from that of strangers These are your Ministers faire promises yet I dare giue them my word though they haue the best spirit that euer possessed any man of your Church notwithstanding they may erre damnably mistake Scripture think that to be true translation which is indeed erroneous Had not Luther the first fruites of the Protestants spirit yet he erred most grossely that euen Zwinglius his fellow-witnes against the Pope doth giue this testimony against him (t) tom 2. l. de sacrament p. 412. Thou Luther doest corrupt the word of God thou art seene to be a manifest corrupter of the holy Scriptures 9. What translation or spirit of your Church may your Ladyes trust if Luther be soe corrupt as this your faithful witnes doth depose I see no remedy for them if they meane to be saued frō the deluge of errours but to fly to your Arke of Noe printed at Venice (u) Counters p. 8. wherein you were shipped when my booke came to
about faith manners may be proued What doth follow but that some vnwritten verities and traditions are found which haue equall authoritie with diuine Scripture Is not this argument in good forme Are not the premisses thereof certaine which euen our enemies doe grant May traditions be termed sleeuelesse for which your owne Taylors or Doctours make such glorious winges that therby they fly vp to the throne of diuine Truth 20. But I will not bestow on your suggesting Minister a sleeueles garment but rather grant him a Coate with foure sleeues for his Metaphore by which he maketh the Church Scriptures daughter many Churches as S. Irenaeus writeth (b) l. 3. c. 4. in his time had neuer read any word of Scripture yet did they flourish by keeping the Tradition of Christian doctrine in their hartes Was the Scripture the Mother of these Churches I see not which way you will draw their pedigree from the Scripture except in your next writings you make Scripture Grandmother who hath bin yet scarse 3. yeares a Mother The Church of the old Testament was some thousand yeares (c) 2000 yeares from Adam vnto Moyses before Scripture the Church of the New did flourish many yeares before any Ghospell was written who euer saw or heard a daughter borne before the mother A Sonne before the mother I haue heard of yet he as Man according to which Nature he was her Sonne was not before her So that the Church Child of Scripture a daughter before the Mother is the Pallas of your braine which some Vulcans sharp hatchet hath holpen you to be deliuered of And thus much of your no lesse ridiculous then impious iestes against the authority of the Church 21. After your light skirmish with Scoffes followeth a graue battery of the Churches custome to pray for soules in Purgatory with the Canō of Scriptures (d) Lett. a pag. 80. vsque ad 93. by which you will proue her doctrine in this point to be a Satanicall figment disgracefull vnto the great mercy of God euacuating the Crosse of Christ The places by you alleadged are many but either so triuiall and knowen togeather with the Catholikes answeres or else so ridiculously applied wrung wrested to your purpose that their very sound is able to breake a learned mans head and make him scratch where it doth not itch for want of an answere To giue some few examples What say you (e) pag. 86 shall not Hel gates preuaile against vs and shall Purgatoryes muddy wall hedg vs in Hath the soule of Christ gon downe into the nethermost Hell yet made no passage through the suburbes of Hell Hath he bound the strong Man that he should not harme vs and will he now torment vs himselfe or set we know not whō to do it Thus you Who will not wonder that Purgatoryes wals fall not to the ground with the storme of these your windy interogations shall I make the Logicall Analysis of your Rhetoricall Arguments They be three Ethymens I think The first the gates of hell shall not prauaile against the Church ergo there is no Purgatory The second the soule of Christ went down to the nethermost Hell ergo no Purgatory can be found The third Christ bound the strong Man and took his fortresse ergo Purgatory must vanish away 22. I think Aristotle would be grauelled in these argumēts to find the Mediū to ioyne your extremes togeather For what force hath Christs binding the strong Man that he may not harme his children to proue that God may not chastize them for their sins either by himselfe or another in this world or in the next as he pleaseth when they haue don amisse and committed lesser offences that deserue his lighter displeasure When you say that Hell gates shall not preuaile against vs it is hard to ghesse who those your vsses are Perhaps you meane the Elect Predestinate among whom you number your selfe Let it be so Can you deny but many of your Predestinate and Elect are for robbing and stealing and other such crimes locked vp in London Goales what shall not Hell-gate preuayle against them and shall the wall of a prison mue them vp hath the soule of Christ gon downe into the nethermost Hell and made no passage through New-gates Limbo where sometimes your elect are kept Hath he bound the strong man that he should not harme and shall now a hangman put thē to death You perceaue I hope the vanity of your inferences 23. Let vs heare you preach againe and build a ladder for your elect to passe without Purgatory into Heauen They that dy in the faith say you (f) p. 100 haue peace towardes God they that haue peace towards God are iustified by Christ they that are iustified by Christ are free from the Law and being free from the Law quis accusabit who shall lay any thing to their charge Thus you dispute Where I could lay both folly and falshood to your charge but seing your Protestāt faith freeth you from the Law both of Reason consciēce quis accusabit who dareth accuse you though you write neither wise nor true word I could cast your Elect into Hell from the first step of your ladder For they that dy in the faith haue not peace towards God except their faith be ioyned with good workes S. Iohn (g) Apoc. 14. giuing the reason why the Saintes rest after life saith Opera enim illorum sequuntur illos which you English for their works follow them euen at the heeles But your Protestant faith is so light footed or light headed rather to belieue you shal be saued your charity so heauy heeled to do the good works by which men must be saued that an eternity of torments may passe before your workes ouertake your faith 24. I might also fling them downe from the highest step of all where you say they are free from the Law if you vnderstand it in Luthers sense (h) Tom. 1. Ep. Lat. ep 3◠ad Philippū that though they commit whoredomes or murthers a thousand tymes aday they need not care the bloud of Christ freeth them from the lawe doth not this doctrine togeather with the Authour deserue to be flung into the lowest Hell But if you vnderstand freedome from the law in the Catholick sense that the spirit of Christ maketh that yoke easie and the burden light that in the spirit of loue we may keep the law with great ease as S. Iohn saith (i) 1. Ioan. 5. his commandemcnts are not hard I dare say your Protestants faith hath litle of that spirit that dilateth the heart to runne the way of Gods precepts (k) Psalm 118. that it will neuer be able to get vp this ladder And let thē be indeed iust let them be Saints that keepe the law you obiect that against them that doth cleerely proue a Purgatorie for them in the next life Yea say you but they haue some drosse to