it and convince you of your errour even from your own Practice N. C. My Practice I never use any and I think never shall C. It is a wonderful thing that you should be so blind Do you never sing the Psalms of David and that as they are translated into English Metre N.C. Yes C. Those are Prayers and Petitions as well as Thanksgivings are they not And let me tell you the words are so mean and sometime uncouth nay the sense of the Prophet so often mistaken in that Translation which is commonly used that if you had so much to except against the Common Prayer as may reasonably be excepted against many things there there would be no end of your Complaints you would be ten times louder in your Clamours than you are N. C. Indeed I did not think of this C. Your Ministers do but are not so smcere as to give you notice of it lest you should be disabused and they should lose your Custom But pray think of it your self hereafter and tell me why it is not as lawful to use a Form of Prayer in Prose as to use one in Verse You will be a marvellous man if you can shew a Reason of the Difference N. C. But this Form is not taken out of the Mass book as the Common Prayer is C. Then you lay down your quarrel at a Form of Prayer and onely scruple this Form now in use and that because it hath been used in the Roman Church N. C. Very right C. Then pray lay aside your Bible too at least cut the Psalter out of your book for that 's much in use in their Service N. C. You go too fast that is the Word of God and therefore to be used but any thing else used in the Church of Rome I think we should have nothing to do with C. This is a foolish exception For the Reason you gave me concludes against the use of the Psalms too or else it concludes nothing which I thus demonstrate You lay down this Proposition Whatsoever is used in the Service of the Roman Church must not be used by us To this I adde another The Psalms and other Scriptures are used in the Service of the Roman Church Now do you draw any other Conclusion if you can from these two but this That those Scriptures must not be used by us If you like not this Conclusion then you must mend the first proposition which is your own and you may do what you will with it as for mine it cannot be mended for it is certainly true Now how will you mend it but by allowing us the use of whatsoever is good in their Service And then you must admit of more than the Scripture to be used by us even all that is according to the Scripture As our Prayers certainly are though some of them are but Translations of the Latine Prayers used in that Church N. C. I will mend it in this manner Whatsoever they use except it be the Word of God we are not to use it C. It is meer Humour that makes you limit it in this manner For there is something good besides the Scripture viz. that which is writ said or done according to it And why they should make any thing of this nature unuseful to us by their using it since you confess the Holy Scripture notwithstanding their use nay abuses of it is not prophaned thereby is past my capacity to understand But perhaps you will be more sensible of what I say if I tell you that upon these principles you must reject the use of the Creed commonly called the Apostles Creed because it is Professed there in Divine Service as well as here N. C. I would not willingly go so far from them C. Not go you must whether you will or no if you will follow your Principles which will carry you so far and a great deal farther For this is the very bottom on which your Discourse stands that whatsoever hath been in use by a bad company of men must by no means be used by us in God's Worship except onely such portions of Holy Scripture as shall be thought fit to be read in our Assemblies From whence it follows that you may not lift up your Eyes to Heaven nor Kneel when you pray nor N. C. Now methinks you rave C. Pray hear me a little and you shall see it 's you that are wild and not I so wild as to practise that which you condemn If we must not do what the Church of Rome doth in the Worship of God then much less what Heathens have done and still do for they are worse than the Roman Church N. C. I think your Proposition is good enough but who doth that which the Heathen Idolaters were wont to do C. That did the Jewish Church and that do you N. C. Prove that C. So I will and you shall have Scripture for it ☜ The Jews and you also Bow your Knees or Bodies to God and the Heatheus bowed their Knees to Baal and Bodies to Rimmon 2 Kings 5.18 1 Kings 19.18 You all list up your Eyes to Heaven when you worship and the Heathen lifted up their eyes to their Idols as appears by the practice in Israel who imitated their Customs Ezek. 18.12 and 33.25 You stretch out your hand to God and so the Custom was to do to a strange God Psalm 44.20 The Heathens sate down at their Feasts when they eat of the Sacrifices in the Temples of their Gods 1 Corinth 8 1◠Exod. 32.6 which is the very posture which you are so fond of when you come to seast with Christ in the holy Sacrament of his Body and Bloud sacrificed for us I would adde more but that it would be tedious And the truth of it is good men use that every day well which bad men use ill And therefore I see not but we may do so with many things practised in the Roman Church Do not good men use the Name of God with Reverence which wicked men continually blaspheme Do we not refresh our selves with Meat and Drink of which many Debauched persons take a Surfeit Those fine Cloaths which some wear for pride do not others wear because they befit their Quality And to come nearer our business Those Prayers which some men mumble over others read devoutly and those Garments which some may use as holy others use as decent What should ail us then I ask you once again that we cannot rightly use those things which the Church of Rome abuses say those good Prayers for instarce in English which they say in Latine wear a white Garment without any Ceremony to consecrate it which they hallow with many Prayers and Crossing and Holy water Nay use the Sign of the Cross it self upon one occasion onely once after the Sacrament of Baptism and merely as a token the Child is already become a Servant of the Crucified Jesus which they use upon all occasions before and in Baptism
the Demonstration of the Spirit and of power C. True there is no compare between these But hath your Minister that Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power N. C. Yes sure if ever any man had C. That 's good news for then we shall see that which before we only believed Hath he the gifts of the Holy Gost Can he speak with Tongues and Prophesie and work Miracles and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts N. C. What do you mean C. I mean that which the Apostle Saint Paul meant who had this Demonstration of the Sipirit and of Power which he gave the world to convince them that Jesus was risen from the dead and was made Lord of all whom they were therefore bound to obey N. C. But I mean something else C. Pray tell me what that is Only let me desire you not to use words without the sense belonging to them and to intreat your Minister that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may speak in the Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power for no body now can hope to do it N. C. I mean that he is spiritually enlightned to search the deep things of the Spirit of God which the natural man cannot discern C. I wonder at you that you should not discern the Apostle there speaks of the Holy Ghost i.e. the wonderful Gifts of it in them which â—ssured them of those things that no meer natural Reason could prove I doubt your Minister is not spiritually enlightned because he doth not instruct you better in the Scriptures N. C. Scriptures He never says 〈…〉 but he quotes a place of Scripture for it 〈…〉 Sermons are nothing else whereas you 〈…〉 but Rational Discourses C. I remember I have heard a wise man say that one may talk nothing but Scripture and yeâ— speak never a wise word And I verily believe it for it is not the Word of God when we mistake its sense as you commonly do N. C. Doth yours do any better C. Yes he seems to me to make it his business to let us into the meaning of the holy Book And he backs his Reason not with phrases snatch'd from thence but with such place as manifestly speak the same sense that he doth N. C. I have heard him sometimes endeavouâ— to open the Scripture but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way but onely Rationally C. My good Neighbour consider what yoâ— say Do you think that these two words Spirituaâ— and Rational are opposed the one to the other If they be then Spiritually is as much as Irrationally and absurdly N. C. No pardon me there I do not think those two are opposite but Carnal Reason is opposite to the Spirit C. To speak properly you should say that Carnal Reason is opposite to Spiritual Reason That is a Reason that is guided by Fleshly lusts â—s opposite to that which is guided by the Gospel of Christ Ns. C. I say as I said before it is opposite to the Spirit C. You must either mean as I do or else that it is opposite to the Gospel which is frequently called the Spirit in Scripture But pray tell me how shall we understand the Gospel by our Reason or by something else Ns C. By the Spirit C. What must we have an immediate Revelation to make us understand its sense or must we study and consider and lay things together and so come to know its meaning N. C. Yes we must give our minds to it and then the Spirit enlightens us C. That is it guides us to reason and discourse and judge aright Is not that it you mean N. C. No I mean it shines into our minds with its light C. These are phrases which I would have you explain if you can My Question is this Doth the Spirit shew as any new thing which is not the conclusion of the Reasonings and Discourses in our minds about the Sense of Scripture N. C. I cannot say it doth C. Then you confess that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way we not having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in distinction from the other viz. the immediate revelation of the Holy Ghost which the Apostles had N.C. Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual C. That is you are prejudiced or else you phansie every thing that you do not understand to be Spiritual N.C. No not so but the manner of understanding the things of God methinks should be other than you conceive C. Truly if you have any other manner of understanding besides this and have not the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost I conclude you take the sudden and many times pretty suggestions of Imagination to be Illuminations from above N.C. Now you have hit on something that I would have said The Spirit doth often dart things into my mind C. How know you that Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how to be an Irradiation from the Holy Ghost N.C. No I dare not say so C. Then you examine it and consider whether it be rational and coherent or no. N.C. Yes C. Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatsoever you think of us we do not deny but God's good Spirit puts good thoughts oft-times in our minds and represents things more clearly to us than we could make them by all our reasonings which is as much as to say that it lets us see the reasonableness and aptness of such a Sense for instance of the Divine Writings as we discerned not before N.C. Well I am glad to hear you speak so much of the Spirit C. You might hear ten times as much if you would but frequent our Assemblies For there we are constantly taught that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Jesus Christ is the Spirit i.e. the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apostles N.C. You mix so much of Reason with what you say that I am afraid you are not in the right C. You should rather conclude the contrary and not believe any thing but what you have a good reason for N.C. Say you so How then shall I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Can Reason tell me this C. I am sorry to see you so ill instructed If you had continued to hear our Minister he would have made you understand before this time that though our reason could not find out that Truth yet God hath given us the highest reason to believe it And this I told you is the Spirit the Spirit in Christ and in his Apostles N.C. Pray explain your meaning for I understand not these new Notions C. The Holy Ghost I mean descended on our Saviour at his Baptism with a voice from Heaven saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased This is one reason we have to believe on him Then he wrought miracles by the power of this
Condition elsewhere and that without a Condition C. Then it is not Conditional for what iâ— without a Condition is absolute N.C. You would make him speak Nonsense C. Do you try at leisure if you can make good Sense of his words which methinks are not much better than if he had said The Promises are Conditional but without any Condition N.C. Phy Sir they are thus to be taken The Promise is upon a Condition onely that Condition is promised without a Condition C. Now you have mended the matter finely and made it plain that he thinks all the Promises are absolute Which how well it agrees with their being Conditional I pray tell me when you have thought of it at our next meeting N.C. Do not you grant then that God promises the Condition upon performance of which we shall enjoy the Promise without a Condition C. No indeed for it is certainly false He promises for instance Eternal life if we repent and effectually believe and not otherwise Repentance therefore and Faith are the Conditions of that Promise And I affirm that God nowhere promises that any of us do we what we will shall repent and believe But he requires us to consider and lay to heart what is spoken to us by his Son Jesus which is as much as to say that upon this Condition he will work Repentance and Faith in us N.C. He doth so But though the Promise runs conditionally yet he tells us it shall be fulfilled absolutely C. You mean W. B. tells us so and therein confesses he did not speak truly before when he said the Promise was without a Condition for now he acknowledges that it runs conditionally And to say it shall be fulfilled absolutely is to say that it seems to be Conditional but is not N.C. Well methinks there is much of Mystery in what he delivers C. That is you do not understand it but it sounds prettily and so you like it And so I believe you do the next for the same reason wherein he tells you that in the Old Testament they came to Christ by the Promise but now we come to the Promise by Christ N.C. I like it because it seems to carry aâ— great mystery in it C. It may seem so but it doth not N.C. No what do you make of it C. I think it rather carries a plain falsity in it For we come to Christ by the Promise as well as they and they went to the Promise by Christ as well as we N.C. I know not what you mean C. That 's because you know not what he means But if you will understand me thus it is There was a Promise that God would send Christ into the world and the fulfilling of thiâ— Promise is one great reason why we believe it Jesus and so we are led you see to him by the Promise On the other side there were Promises of great things that Christ would do for those that believed on him and those then thaâ— did believe the Messiah would come hoped foâ— the enjoyment of these Promises by his means and so if I may speak in his phrase they went first to Christ and then to the Promise N.C. I do not well apprehend you and therfore thinks it's time to lay aside this Book C. You do discreetly For if you had continued your discourse about it I should have discovered a world of Follies to you N.C. The things of God are Foolishness to the natural man C. These are not the things of God nor the things of a man neither but childish Fancies or as we commoly speak New-nothings N.C. I know they appear so to the natural man N. I do not judge according to meer Nature but by the direction of the Spirit which instructed the Apostles and therefore you apply that Scripture foolishly to me N.C. You use your reason too much C. You have some reason to say so for if I had used it less things had not appeared so â—idiculous N.C. By that time your heart hath lain so long â—-soke in the bloud of Jesus as his hath done we shall hear other language from you C. You are taken I perceive with that new â—hrase in the Epistle to the Reader and only â—ecause it is new else it would seem very irreâ—erent being taken from a Toast in a Pot of â—le or a Sop in a Dripping-pan a great deal more fit for a Preface before a Book of one of those you call Old Sokers then of such a Reverend Author N.C. You are merry Sir C. Truly I do not make my self merry with any mens Sins but at their little foolish Affectatious how can one chuse but smile But could he not as well have said that he had a long time thought of the efficacy and virtue of the Bloud of Christ or that he was much acquainted with the Love of Christ in dying forus Why to say that he had lain long a soke in his blood is as absurd as if he had told us that he had lain long beaking himself in the Beams of the Sun of Righteousness or roasting himself before the Fire of the Divine Love N.C. Pray Neighbour forbear these expressions C. I was only going to shew you that we have as good a faculty as you to coyn new Words Phrases if we would take the liberty But I will forbear if you will but be content upon this occasion to look back with me and consider how all the Nation comes to be overrun with folly N.C. How I pray you C. As soon as you had cast out of doors all that was Old among us if any Fellow did but light upon some new pretty Fancy in Religion or some odd unusual Expression or perhaps some swelling words of Vanity presently he set up for a Preacher and cry'd up himself for a man that had made some new discovery And such was the confidence of these men both in inventing strange Language and proclaiming their great Discoveries every where that the poor people were perswaded the Nation never knew what Communion with God meant till this time Now they thought the happy days were come when the Spirit was powered out the Mysteries of the Gospel unfolded Free grace held forth the Anointings and Sealings of the Spirit vouchsafed Christ advanced to his Throne and when they should have such Incomes in dwellings and I know not how many other fine things as never was the like heard of before For one man comes and tells them of the streamings of Christ 's Blood freely to sinnners another bids them put themselves upon the stream of Free grace without having any foot on their own bottome A third tells them how they must apply Promises absolute Promises A fourth tells them there is a special Mystery in looking at the Testamentalness of Christs Sufferings And because he found that every body had got into their mouths Gospel Truths hidden Treasures and such like words he presented them with Sipps of Sweetness and told them he
all blame As those in the Apostle's Discourse said Touch not Taste not Handle not so you say Kneel not Pray not by a Form We are not a Surplice c. Now since you think as those men did to please God by not doing those things which he hath no-where forbidden I do not see but you commit the very fault which the Apostle reproves That is you make that necessary not to be done if we will be true Worshippers of God which he hath not made necessary not to be done but left us at liberty to do it if we please By which means you make a Religion of your own and study to honour God by abstaining from these things by which he never said that he was dishonoured O that all tender Consciences would seriously consider this For they would soon discern that your Ministers by forbidding these things now in dispute lay greater burthens upon the Consciences of their Brethren and clog them with more Duties than God hath laid upon them Whereas we who think those things may be done lay no other burthen upon the Conscience than what God himself hath laid which is to obey our Governors in all things wherein he himself hath not bidden us to do the contrary N. C. You will endeavor by and by to make me believe the Moon is made of green Cheese All this discourse tends to prove that we are Superstitious which you know in your Consciences we abhor and are therefore so averse to your ways because we judg them Superstitious C. You begin to be sagacious and to smell things a far off The very truth is I think it is no easie matter to find more Superstitious people in the World than your selves And your Clamours against Superstition prove nothing but that a man may be guilty of some faults and not know it N. C. Phy for shame C. You must not think to put me off with words and wry Faces I will prove you grosly Superstitious or else be converted to you N. C. You will not make good your word C. Yes but I will Tell me what is Superstition N. C. I am not well skill'd in Definitions C. No if you were you would have smelt the foul Beast among you before this time But your business is only to get some ugly Words by the end and then to throw them at every body whom you do not fansie though they have less to do with them than your selves We have been taught that Superstition is a great Dread lest God should not be pleased unless we do some things which we need not do and lest he should be displeased when we do some things in which there is no harm Which Dread springs as you very well saw out of an opinion that such things are good or evil and so must be done or must not be done else God will take it ill which in truth are meerly indifferent Or in shorter and perhaps plainer terms It is a needless Fear in Matters of Religion which makes a man either not dare to do those things which he hath a liberty to do or think he must upon pain of Damnation do those things which he may as well let alone N. C. What then C. What then do you say I would have you behold your face in this Glass and see how wretchedly and superstitiously you look For you think you must not for fear of God's Displeasure use a Form nor sign a Child with the Cross in Baptism nor Bow in the House of God nor go up to the Rails nay nor Kneel nor hear Church Musick nor uncover your Heads when you enter into a Church nor call the Lord's-day Sunday nor keep an Holy-day Nay it was a long time before you thought it lawful to let your Hair grow below your Ears All which things we may do and not displease God at all On the other side You imagine you are bound to propagate spread all your little Opinions though with the Ruin of Kingdoms That you are tied to maintain your liberty in indifferent matters against all the Authority of a King and to the disturbing a Church That you have a Sermon or two on a Fasting day or else you fear it is not kept and two Sermons on the Lord's-day or else you doubt it is not Sanctified Nay some of you I remember fansied heretofore that it was no Sermon if it were not in the Pulpit And to such an height is your Superstition grown that you scarce think a Prayer is acceptable to God unless it be long And you are afraid he is not served aright unless we have a long Prayer before Sermon after we have been praying a great while for all manner of things And such a Necessity you seem to lay upon extemporary Prayer that many well-disposed people who have not that Gift dare not pray at all at least in their Families for fear they should not pray aright And all these are things of such a nature as that they may not be done or done otherwise than you think they must and God be never the less pleased with us N. C. Now you have discovered the Naughtiness of your Heart in speaking against Sermons in the Afternoon C. If I should do so I should speak against my self and ran into your fault I think they may be used or they may be let alone according as the Edification of the People shall require But to make them so necessary as you do arises from a Superstitious Fansie that God is not well served without them Whereas in truth the Catechism expounded or the Scriptures opened would be as well or rather better N. C. I doubt there is something that is naught lies at the bottom of such Discourses C. You should rather suspect there are naughty things at the bottom of such Opinions as yours For the Fruit of your Superstition is this at the best Rash and unjust Censuring of your Brethren that do not the things which you make so necessary to be done or do the things which you make so necessary to be forborn and at last downright Schism and Separation from them because you fansie they are out of the way of God N. C. I must confess I have some fear you are so who can be content without a Sermon in the Afternoon and satisfied with Common-Prayer which I could never feel my self so affected with as I am with extemporary Devotions C. That 's because you had so low an esteem of it and therefore brought no desires nor used any Endeavours to be moved by it but rather you set your self in a dull and sleepy Posture as one that had no list to hear it I could tell you something else besides this but it would only vex you N. C. I am not afraid of any thing you can say Pray speak your mind C. I believe if you would examine your self you would find there is some part of your Ministers extemporary Prayers which do no more affect you than our
whereby we do the rest according to the Rule of his Laws And must we not have a sense that we are sincere in all this before we can reasonably expect that he should give us all the good things he promises In short must he not give us his Grace to will and to do and must we not receive it and effectually do thereby all that I have said before we conclude our Sins are pardoned and take the confidence to hope our Saviour will give us eternal Life N. C. I perceive you pretend to have profited very much by your Minister C. Yes indeed I think I am grown wiser a great deal and much better N. C. I wish you would tell me briefly wherein C. I know God and his Attributes better and perceive how all Religion depends on that Knowledge I think also I understand the nature of Religion in General and of Christianity in particular more exactly than I did I know wherein Religion consists with the grounds of Faith and the Reason why I am a Christian rather than of any other Profession And withal I hope I understand many places of Holy Scripture and am able to give a clearer soberer account of them than heretofore whenas I ingeniously confess I was wont to expound the Word of God by fansie and not by serious attentive Considerations And as for growth in goodness I may truly say I have learnt many things to be my Duty which I scarce ever heard you speak of As for example to bridle my Tongue especially when I speak of my Superiors to reverence my Governors to live in obedience to Laws though they happen to hinder my private profit for that end to look upon humane Laws as binding the Conscience to answer my Betters with great Modesty and Humility in particular not to contend boldly and malepertly with the Priest as if I were upon equal ground with him not to be a Busy-body a Gadder from house to house not to pry into every bodie 's Secrets not to rejoyce in iniquity or take a pleasure in hearing of the Sins of the contrary party to be very fearful of making a Schism in the Church and to name no more to take heed of itching Ears and not to run from my own Church out of a fansie that I can profit more in other places N. C. Well talk as long as you please all the Godly will follow those men whom you would perswade me to forsake C. I am heartily sorry to see your Arrogance and Uncharitableness But it gives me to understand how much you profit by your Ministers not in the Graces of Christ but in the peculiar unheard of Vertues of your Sect Pride Boasting Good opinion of your selves Contempt of others and rash judging even of mens Spiritual estates N. C. I think you judge rashly of me C. No such matter Your Censoriousness Rashness is apparent and I do not commit the same fault when I take notice of it And I must let you know that you commit another like this when you make an Out-cry through the Nation and tell the people that all Vngodliness hath over-flown it only since Bishops and Common-Prayer came home again Which is an arrant Lie as will be made good if need be against the best of you For it began to break in upon us when the Bishops all good Order was thrown down and the Kingdom put into Arms. Then men ran into excess of Riot when their was no Restraint upon them I will not say into so much Drunkenness but into Whoring I may add Atheism and Irreligion and such like Wickedness which are said now to be the reigning sins And though men were not presently openly lascivious and profane for the older Wickedness grows the bolder it is yet then they got loose from their Chains and these works of Darkness secretly lurk'd and were privately practised N. C. I do not believe you C. You will believe the Assembly I am sure and they say so N. C. Where C. In their Petition to the Parliament of July 19. 1644. where they desire in the seventh Branch of it that some severe Course may be taken against Fornication Adultery and Incest which do greatly abound say they ESPECIALLY OF LATE BY REASON OF IMPUNITY N. C. I am not concern'd about this But I affirm the Generality of the Godly people now follow us C. Suppose they did you will not allow it a good Argument in other cases to say that al the Godly for many Ages did such and such things for instance use a Form of Prayer and such Ceremonies as ours and therefore why do you keep such a stir with it now but where did you get a List of all the Godly that you can tell so exactly the major part follow you Were they ever brought to the Poll And who were Judges I pray you in the Case You do but still persist in your over-fond Love to your selves and your own Party and way wheâ— you talk in this manner For there are many ways to shew that they are far from being the Generality of the Godly that flock to youâ— Meetings N. C. Then you allow that some Godly people follow us C. Did I ever dispute it Nay does there any body doubt except your selves and the Papists but that there may be Godly people of every Sort and Party But then it is an imperfect sort of Godliness which we acknowledg in them and we hope God will bear with their Defects when they are sincerely humble and modest and do not fansie themselves the only or the most godly people in the World And if you will have me speak my mind plainly and not be angry I think I may say without any rashness that your godly people are generally of the lowest Form in Christ's School as I told you before A great deal of their Religion is of their own making as I lately shew'd you and they want a great deal of God's Religion N. C. You are very envious C. No truly I admire the Grace of God wheresoever I see it for it is the most lovely sight that can present it self to me But I cannot allow them to be such excellent Christians as you imagine they rather appear to me with many Deformities For they are ever wrangling about little Ceremonies They break the Peace of the Church by this means and seem to make no scruple about it They are froward and peevish greedy of Riches stubborn in their Opinions and by no means can bear with any man differing from them in matters of Doctrine In short I see a strang Ignorance mixt with Presumption Wilfulness not without a high degree of Superstition in those whom you admire for godliness But then there is a sort of people who injoy that name among you in whom I can see nothing but an humour of Despising and Railing at all ancient received Customs how good soever Together with a sullen Devotion and such a turbulent nature