themselves lesse obnoxious to error either in life or doctrine more to be preferred then any or all the world besides one of them betraies his Saviour another denies him all forsake him They thought Christs Kingdome to have been of this world and a promise only unto the Jewes and not unto the Gentiles and this after the resurrection They wondred that the holy Ghost should fall upon the Gentiles Saint John twice worshipped the Angel and was rebuked for it Apoc. 22. 8. Saint Paul saw how Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel Gal. 2. 14. Not only Peter but other of the Apostles were ignorant how the word of God was to be preached unto the Gentiles But who then shall rowl away the stone from the mouth of the monument Who shall expound the Scriptures to us one puls one way and another another by whom shall we be directed Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus You that cry up the Fathers the Fathers so much shall hear how the Fathers do tell us that the Scriptures are their own interpreters Irenaeus who was scholler to Policarpus that was schollar to Saint John lib. 3. ca. 12. thus saith Ostentiones quae sunt in Scripturis non possunt ostendi nisi ex ipsis Scripturis the evidences which are in Scripture cannot be manifested but out of the same Scripture Clemeus Alexandinus Nos ex ipsis deipsis Scripturis perfecte demonstrantes ex fide persuademus demonstrative Strom. li. 7. Out of the Scriptures themselves from the same Scriptures perfectly demonstrating doe we draw demonstrative perswasions from faith Crysost Sacra Scriptura seipsam exponit auditorem errare non sinit Basilius Magnus Quae ambigue quae obscure videntur dici in quibusdam locis sacrae Scripturae ab ijs quae in alijs locis aperta perspicua sunt explicantur Hom 13. in Gen. Those things which may seem to be ambiguous and obsure in certain places of the holy Scripture must be explicated from those places which else-where are plain and manifest Augustinus Ille qui cor habet QuestionuÌ„ asceticaruÌ„ secundum eptt regula tre cenâ—ssi ema sexagessima quod precisum est jungat Scripturae legat superiora vel inferiora et in veniet sensum Let him who hath a precise heart joyne it unto the Scriptures and let him observe what goes before and that which follows after and he shall find out the sense Gregorius saith Ser. 49. De verbis Domini Per Scripturam loquitur deus omne quod vult et voluntas dei sicut in testamento sic in evangelio inquiratur By Scripture God speaks his whole mind and the will of God as in the old Testament so in the new is to be found out Optatus contra parmenonem lib. 5. Num quis aequior arbiter veritatis divinae quam deus out ubi deus manifestius loquitur quam in verbo suo Is there a better judge of the divine verity then God himselfe or where dorh God more manifestly declare himself then in his own word What breath shall we believe then but that which is the breath of God the holy Scriptures for it seems all one to Saint Paul to say dicit Sriptura the Scripture saith Rom. 4. 3. and dicit Deus the Lord saith Rom. 9. 17. The Scripture hath concluded all under sin Gallathians 3. 22. for that which Romans 11. 32. he saith God hath concluded all c. how shall we otherwise conclude then but with the Apostle 1 Cor. 2. 12. we have received not the spirit of the world but the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given unto us of God They who know not this spirit do deride it but this spirit is the hidden Manna Apo. 2. 17. which God giveth them to eat who shall overcome it is the white stone wherein the new name is written which no man knoweth but he that received it Wherefore we see the Scripture is the rule by which all difference may be composed it is the light wherein we must walk the food of our souls an antidote that expels any infection the only sword that kils the enemy the only plaster that can cure our wounds and the only documents that can be given towards the attainment of ever lasting salvation The Marquesses reply to the Kings Paper May it please your most excellent Majestie YOur Majestie is pleased to wave all the marks of the true Church and to make recourse unto the Scriptures I humbly take leave to ask Your Majestie what heretique that ever was did not do so How shall the greatest heretique in the world be confuted or censured if any man may be permitted to appeal to Scriptures margind with his own notes senc'd with his own meaning and enlivened with his own private spirit to what end were those marks so fully both by the Prophets the Apostles and our Saviour himself set down if we make no use of them To what use are land marks set up if Marriners will not believe them to be such Yet notwithstanding after that I have said what I have to say in removall of certain obstacles that lie in the way I shall lead your Majesty to my Church through the full body of the Scriptures or not at all and then I shall leave it to your royall heart to judge when you shall see that we have Scripture on our side whether or no the interpretation thereof be likelier to be true that hath been adjudged so by Councels renowned Fathers famous for sanstity and holinesse of life continued for the space of a thousand or twelve hundred years by your own confession universally acknowledged or that such a one as Luther his word shall be taken either without Scripture or against it with sic volo and sic Jubeo a man who confessed himself that he received his doctrine from the Devil or such a one as Calvin and their associates notoriously infamous in their lives conversations plain rebels to their Moses and Aaron united to the same person should counter-ballance al the worthies deterninations of Councels the continued practices which so many ages produced If your Majesty means by the Church all the professors of the Gospel all that are Christians are so the true Church then we are so in your own sense and you in ours then none who believe in the blessed Trinity the articles of the Creed none who deny the Scriptures to be the word of God let them consture them as they please can be hereticall or of a wrong Religion therefore we must contradistinguish them thus and by the Protestant Church and Religion we must understand those opinions which the Protestants hold contrary to the Church of Rome and by the Romane the opinions which they hold dissenting from the Protestant and then we will see whether we have Scripture for our religion or not and whether you have Scripture for what you maintain
more then ordinarily vers'd in controversie especially for a man who was no professed Schollar and a noble-man besides you must imagine this to be a businesse of long deliberation on his part and that he was not without those helps that could and no question did assist him with all the force that was in argument If any shall say that the publisher of this controversie did ill to present the Church of Rome dressed in such specious apparences of truth to the startling of mens consciences I answer that if that Champion of the Philistians had not been discribed unto us according the full height of that stature he was of nor the discription of his armour according to the substance of his head-piece and the weight of his coat nor the formidablenesse of his weapon according to the vast dimension of his staffe nor the terribility of his speers head according to the many hundred shekels of Iron whereof it was made we should wonder why the soul of Jonathan should be so knit unto the soul of David why Saul should honour him so much and the people so much admire him and the women praise him so many degrees beyond Saul but as the posture of the Gyant hightened the admiration of David so the force of those arguments was but an improvement of the Kings conquest over the temptation They did ill who fomented jealousies in the hearts of the People upon this score viz. that the late King was a Papist in his heart and that he intended to bring in popery whereby he so lost the hearts of his people upon that false ground that all the veines-akings of so many thousand hearts to one could not recover him whom they had lost with a meer frolick nor a more plentifulnesse of tears then had been shed for all the Princes since the Conquest could recall him The Author did not this to startle mens consciences but to prick the consciences of those who were the Authors of this Wherefore I shal desire this onely favour at your hand that you will believe me that it was neither that Insanabile scribendi Cacoethes nor ostentatio eruditionis nor the effascination of any popular applause nor any intention to boulster up any cause or faction that invited me to this publication but meerly because I would not have the wind to get into your ears that blows from so could a quarter where charity is so frozen that she wants life to believe so favourably of the dead as truth requires and so doing you have done him right who hath done you service Thomas Bayly Certamen Religiosum OR A CONFERANCE BETWEEN The late King of England and the late Lord Marquesse of Worcester concerning Religion at His Majesties being at Ragland-Castle 1646. IT is not to be imagined otherwise but that every man who pretends unto Religion makes the same Reli … … ich he professeth 〈…〉 Jacobs Ladder or his fiery 〈…〉 ascend to heaven Neither is 〈…〉 supposed but that the same man 〈◊〉 â—…hought any other Religion better 〈◊〉 his own or his own not the only way to heaven would forsake that Religion which he had formerly imbraced and matriculate himself a member of that Church whose purer hands were likeliest to give him the truest blessing Wherefore burning zeal is not to be blamed though the fire be misplac'd if it operate according to its own nature which is to congregate homogeneall beings and make them love to sit by the same fire Thus affected was that Noble and indeed in his way heavenly disposed Henry late Marquesse of Worcester to play the greatest prize that ever was played between any two that ever entred within those lists Three Diadems were to encounter with the Tripple Crowne and the Tripple Crown with three Scepters opportunity that lucky gamster that hardly loses a game in twenty was on the Marquesses side time and place directed him how to take points in his own Tables the King at that time being in the Marquess own house at Ragland and necessitated to borrow money to buy bread after so great a losse at Nazeby the King being thus put to play the after game with the old Marquesse was a little mistrustful that he had not plaid the fore game with him so well as that he had not thereby prejudic'd the latter for though the Marquesse and his son were the two ablest and most forward'st shoulderers up of the declining Throne especially the chip of the old block whose disposition expressed it self most Noble in not caring who had lov'd the King so that he might be but permitted to love Alexander whom he affected not only with the loyall respects of a subject towards his Soveraigne but also with such passionate wayes of expressions and laboriousnesse in all good offices as are wont to be predominant in those in whom simpathy is the the only ground of their affections yet there were not wanting some kind of men who made the aversnesse of this Noble-mans Religion an occasion of improving their own envies which though it could never lose him the least ground in his Masters good opinion of him who never would judge no more a Saint by his face then a Devil by his feet but both according to their severall ingagements yet there were some things which happened as having relation to this family which were not altogether pleasing however though His Majesty came thither usher'd by necessity yet he came neither unwelcomed nor uninvited and entertained as if he had been more King by reason of some late atchivements rather then otherwise and though money came from him like drops of bloud yet he was contented that every drop within his body should be let out at His command so that he might performe so meritorious a piece of worke as he thought the being an instrument of bringing the Father of of his Country to be the Son of his Church would be unto his souls health The Marquesse having these resolutions within himselfe thought to give them breath at the same time that His Majestie should make his motion for a further supply of money which he daily and hourly expected but was deceived in his expectations for the relation already having reach'd the Kings ear how an accident had made me no less fortunate to his Lordship then in being the meanes of preserving his Lordships person and no inconsiderable fortune then in the same venture with him and how that I preserved both the one and the other in concealing both for the space that the Moon useth to be twice in riding of her circuit the particulars hereof here to insert would tend rather to much arrogance then any purpose wherefore I further forbear untill such time as the trust that providence had reposed in me was crowned by the same hand with such successe as brought the Marquesse safe to his own house in peace which I had no sooner brought to passe hut the Marquess drew from me a solemn ingagement never to leave him so
wish that all Controversies betwixt you and Us were as well decided I am fully satisfied in this point Doctor May it please Your Majestie A great many Controversies between us and the Papists might be soon decided if the Churches revennues which were every where taken away more or less where differences in Religion in several parts of the world did arise in the Church were not an obstacle of the reunion like the stone which the Crab cast into the Oyster which hindred it from ever shutting it self again like the division which happened between the Greek and Latin Church Photinus intrudes himself into the Patriarch-ship of Constantinople over the head of Ignatius the lawfull Patriarch thereof whom the Pope preserved in his Communion and then the difference of the Procession of the holy Ghost between those two Churches was fomented by the sayd Photinus least the wound should heale to soone and the patient should not be held long enough in cure for the benefit of the Chyrurgion Sacriledge hath brought more divisions then the nature of their causes have required and the universities play with edged tools whilst hungry stomacks run away with their meat wherefore since Your Majestie was pleased to discharge the watch that I had set before the door of my lips I shall make bold to put Your Majestie in mind of houlding my Lord to the demand which Your Majestie once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were througly determined all Controversies not onely between Your Majestie his Lordship but also all the Controversies that ever were started would soon be decided at a short race end and without this we take away the meanes of reconciliation For I must confesse ingeniously yet under the highest correction that there is not a thing that I ever understood less then that assertion of the Scriptures being judge of Controversies though in some sence I must and will acknowledge it but not as it is a book consisting of papers words and letters for as we commonly say in matters of civil differences the Law shall be the Judge between us we do not mean that every man shall run unto the Law books or that any Lawyer himself shall search his Law-cases and thereupon possess himself of any thing that is in question between him and another without a legall trial and determination by lawfull Judges constituted to that same purpose In like manner saving knowledge and Divine Truths are the portion that all Gods children layes fast claime unto yet they must not be their own carvers though it is their own meat that is before them whilst they have a mother at the table They must not slight all Orders Constitutions Appeales and Rules of Faith Saving knowledge and Divine Truths are not to be wrested from the Scripture by private hands for then the Scripture were of private interpretation which is against the Apostles Rule neither are those undefiled incorruptible and immaculate inheritances which are reserved for us in heaven to be conveighed unto us by any Privy-seales For there is nothing more absurd to my understanding then to say that the thing contested which is the true meaning of the Scriptures shall be Judge of the Contestation no way inferiour to that absurditie which would follow would be this if we should leave the deciding of the sence of the words of the Law to the preoccupated understanding of one of the Advocates neither is this all the absurditie that doth arise upon this Supposition for if you grant this to one you must grant it to any one and to every one if there were but two how will you reconcile them both If you grant that this judicature must be in many there are many manyes which of the manyes will you have decide but that and you satisfie all For if you make the Scripture the Judge of Controversie you make the reader Judge of the Scripture as a man consists of a soul and body so the Scripture consists of the letter and the sence if I make the dead letter my Judge I am the greatest and simplest idolater in the world it will tell me no more then it told the Indian Emperour Powhaton who asking the Jesuite how he knew all that to be true which he had told him and the Jesuite answering him that Gods word did tell him so The Emperour asked him where it was he shewed him his Bible The Emperour after that he had held it in his hands a prittie while answered It tells me nothing But you will say you can read and so you will find the meaning out of the significant Character and when you have done as you apprehend it so it must be and so the Scripture is nothing else but your meaning wherefore necessitie requires an external Judge for determination of differences besides the Scriptures And we can have no better recourses to any then to such as the Scripture it self calls upon us to hear which is the Church which Church would be found out King Doctor Saint John in his first Epistle tells us that the holy Scripture is that to whose truth the Spirit beareth witness And John the Evangelist tells us that the Scripture is that which gives a greater Testimonie of Christ then John the Baptist Saint Luke tells us that if we believe not the Scripture we would not believe though one were risen from the dead and Christ himself who raised men from death to life tells us they cannot believe his words if they believe not in Moses writings Saint Peter tells us that the holy Scriptures is surer then a voice from heaven Saint Paul tells us that it is lively in operation and whereby the Spirits demonstrates his power and that it is able to make a man wise to salvation able to save our soules and that it is sufficient too to make us believe in Christ to live everlasting John 20. As in every seed there is a Spirit which meeting with earth heat and moisture grows to perfection so the seed of the word wherein Gods holy Spirit being sowen in the heart inlivened by the heat of faith and watered with the teares of repentance soon fructifies without any further Circumstance Doctor It doth so but Your Majestie presupposes all this while husband-men and husbandery barnes and threshing floures winnowing and uniting these severall graines into one loafe before it can become childrens bread All that Your Majestie hath said concerning the Scriptures sufficiencie is true provided that those Scriptures be duly handled for as the Law is sufficient to determine right and keep all in peace and quiteness yet the execution of that sufficiencie cannot be performed without Courts and Judges so when we have granted the Scriptures to be all that the most reverend estimation can attribute unto them yet Religion cannot be exercised nor differences in Religion reconciled without a Judge For as Saint Jerom tells us who was no great friend to Popes or Bishops Si
of my memory for so good a work and imploring a blessing upon my endeavours To which I made answer My Lord no question but you think it a good work or else you would not implore Gods blessing upon it Whereupon my Lord said Ah! Doctor I would to God you thought so too And waiting upon him into his Chamber he further said unto me Doctor Bayly you know I am obliged not to speak unto you in this nature yet I hope I may say thus much unto you without any breach of promise you may be an Instrument of the greatest good that ever befell this Nation I say no more Good night to you The third day after he gave me this Paper to deliver unto His Majestie which I did The Marquess his Paper to the King IT must be granted by all that there must be alwayes in the world one holy Catholick and Apostolique Church one that it may be uniforme holy that it may be certain Catholick that it may be known and Apostolick that it may succeed this Church must be either the Romane or the Protestant or else some other that is opposite to both It cannot be any Church which is opposite to both because the Church of England did not when she separated from the Romane joyn her self to any not to the Grecian for that houlds as many Doctrines contrary to the Church of England as doth the Romane nor to any else because she agrees with none no reformed Church under the Sun that is or ever was hath the same articles of beliefe as hath the Church of England and from any other Church besides the Romane she never had a being and with any other Church besides the Romane she never had Communion She cannot be that one because she is but one nor Catholick because she agrees not with any nor Apostolick because she hath acknowledged such a fine and recovery that has quite cut off the entaile which would have otherwise descended unto her from the Apostles neither can she be holy because she is none of all the other three Now if these Attributes cannot belong unto the Protestant Religion and do clearly belong unto the Roman then is the Church of Rom the Catholick Church And that it doth I shall prove it by the marks which God Almighty hath given us whereby we should know her And the first is Vniversality All Nations shall flow unto her Esa 2. 2. And the Psalmist The heathen shall be thine inheritance and the uttermost part of the Earth for thy possession Psal 2. 2. And our Saviour Matth. 20. 14. This Gospel of the Kingdome shall be preached in all the world as a witness to all Nations c. Now I confesse that this glory is belonging to all Professors of the Christian Religion yet amongst all those who do profess the name of Christ I believe Your Majestie will consent with me herein that the Romane Church hath this forme of universality not onely above all different and distinct Professors of Religion but also beyond all Religions of the world Turkes or heathens and that there is no place in the world where there are not Romane Catholicks which is manifestly wanting to all other Religions whatsoever Now I hope Your Majestie cannot say so of any Protestant Religion neither that Your Majestie will call all those who protest against the Church of Rome otherwise then Protestants but not Protestant Catholicks or Catholicks of the Protestant Religion being they are not religated within the same Communion and fellowships for then Religion would consist in protestation rather then unity in Nations falling off from one another rather then all nations flowing to one another neither is it a Consideration altogether invalid that the Church of Rome hath kept possession of the name all along other reformed Churhes leaving her in possession of the name and taking unto themselves new names according to their severall founders except the Church of England who is now herself become like a Chapter that is full of nothing else whose founder was such a one whose name it may be they were unwilling to own For antiquitie if we should inquire after the old paths which is the good way and walk therein as the Prophet Jeremiah adviseth us if we should take our Saviours rule Ab initio autem non fuit sic if we should observe his saying how the good seed was first formed and then the tares If we should consider the pit from whence we were dug and the rock from whence we were hewen we shall find antiquity more applicatory to the Church of Rome then any Protestant Church But you will say your Religion is as ancienâ— as ours having its procedure from Christ and his Apostles so say the Lutheran Protestants with their Doctrine of Consubstantiation and many other sorts of Protestants having other Tenents altogether contrary to what you hold how shall we reconcile you so say all hereticks that ever were how shall we confute them a part to set up themselves against the whole and by the power of the sword to make themselves Judges in their own causes is dealing that were it your case I am sure you would think it very hard I wish you may never find it so For Visibility Our Saviour compares his Church to a Citie placed on a hill according unto the Prophet Davids Prophesie a Tabernacle in the Sun It is likewise compared unto a candle in a candle-stick not under a bushell and saith our Saviour If they shall say unto you behold he is in the desart go ye not forth Behold he is in secret places believe it not forewarning us against obscure and invisible Congregations Now I beseech Your Majestie whether should I betake my self to a Church that was alwayes visible and gloriously eminent Or to a Protestant Church that was never eminent and for the most part invisible shrowding their defection under an Apostolicall Expression of a woman in the Revelation who fled into the wilderness for a thousand years as if an allegory could wipe out so many clear texts of Scripture as are set down by our Saviour and the Prophets concerning the Churches invisibility And I could not find any Church in the world to whom that Prophesy of Esay might more fitly appertain then to the Church of Rome I have set watch-men upon the walls which shall never hold their peace day nor night which I am sure no Protestant Church can apply to her self It is not enough to say I maintaine the same Faith and Religion which the Apostles taught and therefore I am of the true Church ancient and visible enough because as I have said before every heretick will say as much but if you cannot by these markes of the Church set down in Scripture clear your selves to be the true Church you vainly appeal to the Scriptures siding with you in any particular point for what can be more obsurd then to appeale from Scripture setting things down clearly unto Scripture
setting down things more obscurely There is no particular point of Doctrine in the holy Scripture so manifestly set down as that concerning the Church and the Markes thereof nothing set down more copious and perspicuous then the visibility perpetuitie and amplitude of the Church So that Saint Augustin did not stick to say that the Scriptures were more clear about the Church then they were about Christ. Let him answer for it He said so in his book de unitate Ecclesiae and this he said was the reason because God in his wisedome would have the Church to be described without any ambiguity that all Controversies about the Church may be clearly decided wherehy questions about particular Doctrines may find determinations in her judgement and that Visibility might shew the way unto the most rude and ignorant and I know not any Church to whom it may more justly be attributed then to the Church of Rome whose Faith as in the beginning was spread through the whole world so all along and at this day it is generally known among all nations Next to this I prove the Catholick Church to be the Romane because a lawfull succession of Pastors is required in every true Church according to the Prophet Esay his Prophecie concerning her viz. My Spirit which is upon thee and the words which I have put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth for ever This succession I can find onely in the Church of Rome This Succession they onely can prove none else offering to go about it This Succession Saint Augustin sayes kept him in that Church viz. a Succession of Priests from the very seat of Peter the Apostle to the present Bishop of his time And Optatus Milevitanus recons all the Romane Bishops from Saint Peter to Syricius who then was Pope and by this he shewed and made it his Argument that the true Church was not with the Donatists bidding them to shew the Originall of their Chayre this no Protestant did or ever can do The Romane Church gave the English Bishops Commission to preach the Doctrine of Christ as they have delivered it unto them but they never gave them any Commission to preach against her Religion which Bishops being turned out for observing the depositum wherewith they were instructed and new Bishops chosen in their room by her who not contenting her self with being a nursing mother thereof must needs be head of the child and moderatrix in the same Church wherein by the Apostles precept she is forbidden to speak the Succession was broke off the branch cut off from the body becoming no part of the tree sit for nothing but to be chopt into smaller pieces and so fitted for the fire this proofe of Succession the Bishops of England thought so necessary for proving their Church to be the true Church that they affirmed themselves to be consecrated by Catholick Bishops their Predecessors wbich never proved argues the interruption and affirming it shewes how that in their own opinion the Succession could not hold in the inferiour Ministers as indeed it cannot for as there is a continued supply of Embassadours in all places yet the Succession is in the royall race so though all vacancies are replenished by Ministers of the Gospel yet the Succession of the Authority was in the Bishops as descended to them from the Apostles according to our Saviours rule I will be with you alwayes unto the end of the world Which Affirmation of theirs argues that their calling is insufficient without it and in that they would faine derive it from the Church of Rome it argues that that is the true Church and yet they would forsake her supposing her to have errors when that Reformation it self was but a Supposition for seeing they hold that their Church may erre they can be certain of nothing and whilst for errors sake they forsake the Church of Rome the Church of England in forsaking her may be in the greatest error of all where there is neither Succession nor assurance I must leave her to her self and Your Majestie to judge Next I prove the Romane Church to be the true Church by her unity in Doctrine for so the Apostle Paul requires all the Churches children to be of one mind viz. I beseech you that all speak one thing Be ye knit together in one mind and one Judgement 1. Cor. 1. Endeavouring to keep the unitie of the Spirit in the bond of peace Ephes 4. 3. The multitude of them that believed were of one heart of one soul Act. 4. 32. Continue in one spirit and one mind of one accord and one judgement Phil. 1. 27. Phil. 2. 2. So our Saviour prayeth that they may be one So Joseph forewarned his brethren that they should not fall out by the way knowing that whilst they were with him he could order them when they came to their father he could order them but having no head they should be apt to dissentious This Vnity I find no where but in the Church of Rome agreeing in all things which the Church of Rome hath determined for Doctrine whereas the Protestant Doctrine like the heresie of Simon Magus divided it self into severall Sects and to that of the Donatists which were cut into small threds in so much that among the many Religions which are lately sprung up and the sub sub subdivisions under them each one pretending to be the true Protestant excluding the other and all of them together no more likely to be bound up in the bond of peace then a bundle of thornes can expect binding with a rope of sand In vaine is their excuse if non-disagreement in fundamentalls for they dis-agree amongst themselves about the Sacrament for the Lutherans hold Consubstantiation but the Church of England no such matter Some that Christ descended into hell others not The Church of England maintaine their King to be the head of the Church The Helvetians will acknowledge no such matter the Presbyterians will acknowledge no such matter the Independent will acknowledge no such matter Concerning the Government of the Church by Bishops some Protestants maintaine it to be Jure Divino others to be Jure Ecclesiastico others no such matter Some thinks that the English translations of the Bible in some places takes away in other places addes and other-some places changes the meaning of the holy Ghost and some think it no such matter or else the Bishops would not have recommended Lincol. min. to K. James pag. 11. 13. it unto the people Lastly they are so far from agreeing about the true meaning of the word of God that they cannot agree upon what is the word of God For Lutherans deny the second Epistle of Saint Peter the second and third Chem. Ex. Contr. Trid. part 1. pag. 55 Also Eucher p. 63. Epistle of Saint John the Epistle to the Hebr.
the Epistle of Saint James and Saint Jude and the Revelation The Calvinists and the Church of England no such matter they allow them And I believe that these are fundamentalls If they cannot agree upon their Principalls how shall they agree upon the deductions thence If these be not fundamentall points how comes Protestants to sight against Protestants for the Protestants Religion The disagreement is not so amongst the Romane Catholicks for all points of the Romane Religion that have been defined by the Church in a generall Councell are agreed upon exactly by all nations tongues and people ubicunque terrarum but in those points which are not determined by the Church the Church leaves every man to abound in his own sense and therefore all the heat that is either between the Thomists and the Scolists the Dominicans and the Jesuits either concerning the Conception of our blessed Lady or the concurrence of Grace and free-will c. being points wherein the Church hath not interposed her decrees is no more prejudicall or objectionall against the Church of RomesVnitie then the disputations in the Schooles of our Vniversities are prejudiciall to the 39. Articles of the Church of England But in each severall protestant Dominion there are certain severall Articles of belief belonging to severall protestant Dominions in which severall agreements not any one agrees with any of all the rest neither is there any possibility they should being there is no means acknowledged nor power ordained whereby they should be gathered together in one councell whereby they might be of one heart and of one soul neither is there this Vnitie in any one particular Dominion as is in the Dominion of the Roman Church for they are all in pieces amongst themselves even in their own severall Dominions practising disobedience to their Superiours they teach it to their Inferiours The greatest Vnitie the Protestants have is not in believing but in not believing in knowing rather what they are against then what they are for not so much in knowing what they would have as in knowing what they would not have But let these negative Religions take heed they meet not with a negative Salvation Neither can the Conversion of Nations be attributed to any other Church then to the Roman which is another mark of the true Church according to the prophesies of Esay cap. 49. 23. Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Queens thy nursing mothers And Esay 60. 16. Thou shalt suck the milk of the Gentiles and the breasts of Kings shall minister into thee And Esay 60. 10. And thy Gates shall be continually open that men may bring to thee the riches of the Gentiles and that their Kings may be brought And the Iles shall do thee service And the Prophet David I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance and the uttermosts parts of the earth for thy possession c. Now no Protestant Church ever converted any one Nation Kingdome or People Many protestant people have fallen away from the Church of Rome but this cannot be called conversion but rather perversion for the Romane Church may justly say of such these have not converted Nations from paganisme to Christianity which is the mark of the true Church These are they which went forth from us 1 Joh. 2. 19. Certaine that went forth from us Act. 15. 14. These are certain men who rise out of our selves speaking perverse things Act. 20. 30. These were they who separated themselves Jude 19. which are markes of false and hereticall Churches But the Romane Church I find stretching forth her armes from East to West receiving and imbracing all within her Communion For the first three hundred years the Church grew down-ward like a strong building whose foundations are first laid in the earth whose stones are knit together in Vnity by the morter that was tempered with the bloud of her ten Persecutions Afterwards this building hasting upwards Constantine the great Emperour submitting his neck unto the yoke of Christ subdued all Christian Churches to Pope Sylvester then Pope of Rome from which time to these our dayes the Pope and his Clergie hath possessed the outward and visible Church as is confessed by Napier a learned Protestant in his treatise upon the Revelation pag. 145. and all along hath added Kingdoms upon Kingdoms to her Communion untill she had incorporated into her self not onely Europe but Asia Africa and America as Simon Lythus a Protestant writer affirmeth viz. The Jesuits have filled Asia Africa and America with their idols as he cals them for the late Conversions of the East and West-Indies by the Romans if you read Joan. Petrus Maffeus Hist Indicarum Jos Acosta de natur novi orbis You shall find that no Church in the world hath ever spread so farre and wide as the Church of Rome Wherefore I hope in this respect also I may safely conclude that the Church of Rome most justly deserves to be called the Catholick Church Neither is it a vainer thing to say that the Pope of Rome cannot be head of the Church because Christ himself is head thereof then it is for a man to say that the King of England cannot be King of England because God is King of all the earth Psal 46. 8. As if the King could not be Gods Vice-gerent and the peoples visible God so the Pope Christs Vicar or Deputy the Churches visible head And let Kings beware how they give way to such Arguments as these least at the last such inferences be made upon themselves As strange an inference is that how that the Church was not built upon Peter because it was built upon his Confession as if it might not be built caussually upon the one and formally upon the other as if both these could not stand together as if the Confession of Peters Faith might not be the cause why Christ built his Church upon his Person as if Christ did not as well personally tell him Tu es Petrus as significantly super hanc Petram id est super istam Confessionem aedificabo Ecclesiam No less invallied is that Objection of Protestants against the oecunomacie of the Bishop of Rome viz. that saying of Greg. sometimes Bishop of that sea viz. He that intituled himself universall Bishop exalted himself like Lucifer above his brethren and was a forerunner of Antichrist as if there were no more meanings in the word Vniversalitie then one as if there were not a Metaphoricall as well as a Literall and Grammaticall Sense as if Saint Gregory might not censure this title of Vniversalitie in the Grammaticall and exclusive meaning which being so taken would have excluded all other Bishops from their Offices Essences and Proprieties which they held under Christ thereby depriving them of the Key of orders and yet still keep the Superioritie viz. of one Bishop over another and himself over all in a Metaphoricall and transferent sense thereby still keeping the Key of Jurisdiction in his own hands
you deny it we say his body is there you say there is nothing but bare bread we have Scripture for it Mat. 20. 26. Take eat this is my body so Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you You say that the bread which we must eat in the Sacrament is but dead bread Christ saith that that bread is living bread you say how can this man give us his flesh to eat we say that that was the objection of Jewes and Infidels 1 John 6. 25. not of Christians and believers you say it was spoken figuratively we say it was spoken really revera or as we translate it indeed John 6. 55. But as the Jewes did so do ye first murmur that Christ should be bread John 6. 41. Secondly that that bread should be flesh John 6. 52. And thirdly that that flesh should be meat indeed John 6. 55. untill at last you cry out with the unbelievers this is a hard saying who can hear it John 6. 60. had this been but a figure certainly Christ would have removed the doubt when he saw them so offended at the reallity Joh. 6. 61. He would not have confirmed his saying in terminis with promise of a greater wonder John 6. 62. you may as well deny his incarnation his ascention and ask â—ow could the man come down from heaven and go up again if incomprehensibility should be sufficient to occasion such scruples in your breasts and that which is worse then naught you have made our Saviours conclusion an argument against the premises for where our Saviour tels them thus to argue according unto flesh and bloud in these words the flesh profiteth nothing and that if they will be enlivened in their understanding they must have faith to believe it in these words it is the Spirit that quickneth John 6. 63. They pervert our Saviours meaning into a contrary sense of their own imagination viz. the flesh profiteth nothing that is to say Christs body is not in the Sacrament but it the Spirit that quickneth that is to say we must onely believe that Christ dyed for us but not that his body is there as if there were any need of so many inculcations pressures offences mis-believings of and in a thing that were no more but a bare memoriall of a thing being a thing nothing more usuall with the Israelites as the twelve stones which were errected as a sign of the children of Israels passing over Jordan That when your children shall ask their Fathers what is meant thereby then ye shall answer them c. Josh 4. there would not have been so much difficulty in the belief if there had not been more in the mystery there would not have been so much offence taken at a memorandum nor so much stumbling at a figure The Fathers are of this opinion Saint Ignat. in Ep ad Smir. Saint Justin Apol 2. ad Antonium Saint Cyprian Ser. 4. de lapsis Saint Ambr. lib. 4. de Sacram. Saint Remigius c. affirm the flesh of Christ to be in the Sacrament and the same flesh which the word of God took in the Virgins wombe Secondly We hold tbat there is in the Church an infallible rule for understanding of Scripture besides the Scripture it self this you deny this we have Scripture for as Rom. 12 16. we must prophesie according to the rule of faith we are bid to walke according to this rule Gal. 6. 16. we must encrease our faith and preach the Gospel according to this rule 1 Cor. 10. 15 this rule of faith the holy Scriptures call a form of doctrine Romans 6. 17. a thing made ready to our hands 2. Cor. 10. 16. that we may not measure our selves by our selves 2 Cor. 10. 12. the depositions committed to the Churches trust 1 Tim. 6. 20. for avoiding of prophane and vain bablings and oppositions of sciences and by this rule of faith is not meant the holy Scriptures for that cannot do it as the Apostle tels us whilst there are unstable men who wrest this way and that way to their own destruction but it is the tradition of the Church and her exposition as it is delivered from hand to hand as most plainly appears 2 Tim. 2. 2. viz. The things which thou hast heard of us not received in writing from me or others among many witnesses the same commit thou to faithfull men who shall be able to teach it to others also Of this opinion are the Fathers Saint Irenaeus 4. chap. 45. Tertull de praescr and Vnicent lir in suo commentario saith It is very needfull in regard of so many errors proceeding from mis-interpretations of Scripture that the line of propheticall and Apostolicall exposition should be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sense and saith Tertullian praescript advers haeres chap. 11. We do not admit our adversaries to dispute out of Scripture till they can shew who their Ancestors were and from whom they received the Scriptures for the ordinary course of doctrine requires that the first question should be from whom and by whom and to whom the form of Christian Religion was delivered otherwise prescribing against him as a stranger for otherwise if a heathen should come by the Bible as the Eunuch came by the Prophesie of Esay and have no Philip to enterpret it unto him he would find out a Religion rather according to his own fancy then divine verritie In matters of faith Christ bids us to observe and doe whatsoever they bid us who fit in Moses seat Mat. 22. 2. therefore surely there is something more to be observed then only Scripture will you not as well believe what you hear Christ say as what ye hear his Ministers write you hear Christ when you hear them as well as you read Christ when you read his word He that heareth you heareth me Luke 10. 16. We say the Scriptures are not easie to be understood you say they are we have Scripture for it as is before manifested at large the Fathers say as much Saint Irenaeus lib. 2. chap. 47. Origen contr Cels and Saint Ambr. Epist 44. ad Constant calleth the Scripture a Sea and depth of propheticall riddles and Saint Hier. in praefat comment in Ephes and Saint Aug Epist 119. chap 21 saith The things of holy Scripture which I know not are more then those that I know and Saint Denis Bishop of Corinth cited by Eusebius lib. 7. hist. Eccles 20. saith of the Scriptures that the matter thereof was far more profound then his wit could reach We say that this Church cannot erre you say it can we have Scripture for what we say such Scripture that will tell you that fools cannot erre therein Esaiah 35. 8. such Scripture as will tell you if you neglect to hear it you shall be a heathen and a publican Mat. 18. 17. such Scripture as will tell you that this Church shall be unto Christ a glorious Church a Church that shall be
thy Covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is water by this pit could not be meant the place of the damned for they have no share in the Covenant neither are they Christs prisoners but the devils neither could this pit be the grave because Christs grave was a new pit where never any was laid before The Fathers affirm as much Saint Hier in 4. ad Ephes Saint Greg. li. 13. Moral ca. 20. Saint Aug. in Psal 3. 7. v. 1. We hold purgatory fire where satisfaction shall be made for sinnes after death you deny it we have Scripture for it 1 Gor 3. 13. 15. The fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is if any mans work shall de burnt he shall suffer losse but he himselfe shall be saved yet so as by fire Saint Aug so interprets this place upon the 37. Psalme also Saint Amb upon 1 Cor 3. and Ser 20. in Ps 118. Saint Hier lib. 2. chap 13. ad vers Joan Saint Greg li 4. dialog ca 39. Orig. hom 6. in ca 15. Exod. Lastly We hold extream Vnction to be a Sacrament you neither hold it be a Sacrament neither doe you practise it as a duty we have Scripture for it James 5. 13. Is any sick among you let him call the Elders of the Church and let them pray over him annointing him with oyle in the name of the Lord and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him Neither any nor all the Sacraments were or could be more effectual mens good nor more substantiall in matter nor more exquisite in forme nor more punctuall in designation of its ministry other Sacraments being bounded within the limits of the souls only good this extends it self to the good both of soul and body he shall recover from his sicknesse and his sins shall be forgiven him and yet it is both left out in your practise and acknowledgment The Fathers are on our side Orig Hom 2. in Levit S. Chrys lib 3. de Sacerd S. Aug in speculo Ser 215. de temp Vener Bed in 6. Marke and S. James and many others Thus most Sacred SIR we have no reason to wave the Scriptures umpirage so that you will hear it speake in the mother language and not produce it as a witnesse on your side when the producers tell us nothing but their owne meaning in a language unknown to all the former ages and then tell us that shee saith so and they will have it so because he that hath a Bible and a sword shall carry away the meaning from him that hath a Bible and ne're a sword nor is it more blasphemy to say that the Scripture is the Churches off-spring because it is the word of God then it is for me to say I am the sonne of such a man because God made me instrumentally I am so and so was shee for as saith S. Aug Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commoveret I should not believe the Gospel it self unlesse I were moved by the authority of the Church There was a Church before there was a Scripture take which Testament you please We grant you that the Scripture is the Originall of all light yet we see light before we see the Sun and we know there was a light when there was no Sun the one is but the body of the other We grant you the Scriptures to be the Celestiall globe but we must not grant you that every one knowes how to use it or that it is necessary or possible they should We grant that the Scripture is a light to our feet and a lanthorne to our paths then you must grant me that it is requisite that we have a guide or else we may lose our way in the light as well as in the darke We grant you that it is the food of our souls yet there must be some body that must divide or break the bread We grant you that it is the only antidote against the infection of the Devil yet it is not every ones profession to be a compounder of the ingredients We grant Your Majesty the Scripture to be the only sword and buckler to defend a Church from her Ghostly enemies yet I hope you will not have the glorious company of the Apostles and the goodly fellow ship of the Prophets to exclude the noble Army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledge Christ wherefore having shewen Your Majesty how much the Scriptures are ours I shall now consider Your opinions apart from us and see how they are Yours and who sides with You in Your opinion besides Your selfe and first I shall crave the boldnesse to begin with the Protestants of the Church of England The Church of England WHose Religion as it is in opposition to ours consists altogether in denying for what she affirmes we affirme the same as the Real presence the infallibility visibility universality and unity of the Courch confession and remission of sins free-will and possibility of keeping the Commandments c. all these things you deny and you may as well deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture only inference then that which ye have already denied and for which we have plaine Scripture Fathers Councels practise of the Church Whereas matters of so weighty concernment as delivering of mens souls into the Devils hands should not be executed but upon mature deliberation and immergent occasions and not by any but those who have the undoubted authority lest otherwise you make the authority it self to be doubted of that which ye hold positive in your discipline is more erroneous then that which is negative in our Doctrine as your maintaining a woman to be Head Supreame or Moderatrix in the Church who by the Apostles rule is not to speak in the Church or that a Lay-man may be so what Scripture or Fathers or custome have ye for this or that a Lay-man as your Lay-Chancellours should Excommunicate and deliver up soules to Sathan a strange Religion whose Ministers are deny'd the power of remitting sins whilst Lay-men are admitted to the power of retaining them and that upon every ordinary occasion as non-payment of fees and the like Whereas such practises as these have rendred the rod of Aaron no more formidable then a reed shaken with the wind so that you have brought it to this that whilst such men as these were permitted to excommunicate for a three-peny matter the people made not a three-peny matter of their Evcommunication The Church of Saxony NOw for the Church of Saxony you shall find Luther a man not only obtruding new Doctrine upon his Disciples without Scripture or contrary to Scripture but also Doctrine denying Scripture to be Scripture and vilipending those books of Scripture which were received into the Canon and acknowledged to be
about the Scripture all Consent and Credit the Fathers adhere to the Councels submit to the holy Sea of Rome And the Divisions that are are but humane dissentions as is confessed by Luther i Tom. 7. fol. 380. Beza k Beza Epist 1. Whitaker l Whit. de Eccles Cont. Bell. Cont. 2. q. 5. p. 327. Fulk m Fulk ag Hesk. Sand. c. c. pag. 293. c Thus Religion being at Vnity with it self is the true Speculum Creatoris or looking glass of the Creatour wherein the full proportion of a Deity may be seen but once broken into pieces it may represent divers faces but no true proportion and loseth at once both its value and its virtue I have thus presented Your Majestie with a view of the Catholick Religion asserted by the Fathers and the Protestant Religion asserted by their founders I shall humbly desire Your Majesties further patience that Your Majestie will be pleased to consider the lives and Conversations of the one and of the other First the rare Sanctity and admired holinesse which all ages and writers have ascribed unto these holy Fathers And the strange and unheard of blasphemies vilenesse and wickednesse that are cast upon the other not by any of their Adversaries but by themselves upon one another If these testimonies had been by any of our side I could not have expected credit but being by Protestants themselves I cannot see how it should be denied Luther confesseth saith the learned Protestant Hospinian that he was taught by the devil that the Masse was naught and overcome with the devils reasons he abolisht it a Hist Sacr. part ult fol. 131. The same confessed by himselfe b Tom. 7. Witt. fol. 228. Lingeniously confesse saith Luther that I cannot henceforth place Zwinglius in the number of Christians c Tom. 2. Germ. fol. 190. and further he affirms that he had lost whole Christ d In fol. 182. after the manner of all Zwinglius saith Schlusselburg Hereticks was stricken with the spirit of giddinesse and blindnesse deriving it from the etemologie of his name in dutch von dem Schwindel e lin 2. act 1. Gualterus cals Zwinglius the autor of war the disturber of peace proud and cruel and instances in his strange attempt against the Tygurnis his fellows whom he forced by want and famine to follow his doctrine and that he dyed in armor and in the warre f In apolog pro Zwing 1. tom fol 30 31. and Osiander Epist Cent 16. p 203. And Luther saith he dyed like a thiefe because he would compell others to his error g Luther collog lat tom 2. ca de Advers And he saith further that he denyed Christ and is damn'd h Luth col lat tom 1. c. de dam inferno He tels us also that the devil or the devils dam used to appear to Carolo 's and taught him the exposition of this is my body i Tom 3. Jen Germ fol. 68. so Chemnitius de caena p. 214. As also that he possessed him corporally and that he was possessed with more devils then one k Luth loc com class 5. c. 15. p 47. Neither would he have any man wonder that he cals him devil for he saith he hath nothing to do with him but has only relation to him by whom he is obsest who speaks by him l Luth tom 3. Jen fol 61. The last apparition of the devil to him which was three daies before his death is recorded by Albert. m Cont. Carlost fol 6. See Jo Schutz li 50. caus c. 50. If you look into Bezas Epigrams printed at Paris An. 1548. you will find pritty passages concerning his boy Andebers and his wench Candida and the businesse debated at large concerning which sinne is to be preferr'd and his chusing the boy at last Sclusselberg said that Peter Martyr was a heretick and dyed so n Theol Calv li 2. act 1. Nicolaius Selneverus said that Oecolampadius in his doctrine built upon the sand o Seln part c. Ennarrat ger in Psa fol 215. And Saith Luther Emser and Oecolampadius and such like were hiddenly slain by those horrible blowes and shakings of the devill p Luth tom 7. fol 30. Simlerus saith that Brentius Miricus and Andrew Musculus in their writings did nothing else but make way for the devil q Siml in vita Bulling fol 55. Luther saith Calvin was infected with many vices I would he had bin more carefull in correcting his vices r Calv alledged by Schlusselb theol cal lib 2. fol 126. God for the sin of pride wherewith Luther exalted himselfe took away his true spirit Å¿ Cont Rheg l Germ cont Jo Hess de coena domini We have found saith Oecalompadius in the faith and confession of Luthers 12. Articles whereof some are more vain then is fitting some less faithfull and over-guilefully expounded others again are false and reprobate but some there are which plainly dissent from the word of God and the Articles of Christian faith t Oecol resp ad Luth confess See Zuenckfeld praef super prae cept fidei artic Ho spin hist Sacra part 2. fol 5. Thou O Luther saith Zwinglius corruptest and adulterest the Scripture imitating therein the Marcionists and the Arians u Zwing tom 2. fol 412. In translating and expounding of Scripture Luthers erros are many and manifest w Bucer dial Cont Melanct Zwinglius tels us that Luther affirms some times this and some times that of one and the same thing and that he is never at one with himself taxing him with inconstancy and lightnesse in the word of God a Zwing tom 2. fol. 458. That he cares not what he saith though he be found contradicting the Oracles of God b Zwing tom 2. resp ad confes Luth As sure as God is God so sure and devilish a lyer is Luther c Jo Camp colloq lat Luth tom 2. c. de adv f. 354 Luthers writings contain nothing but railing and reproaches insomuch that it maketh the Protestant Religion suspected and hated d Tigur confesseth Orthod fol 122 123. He cals an anointed King Hen. 8. of England a furious dolt indued with an impudent and whorish face without a vein of princely bloud in his whole body a lying Sophist a damnable rotten worm a basilisk the progeny of an Adder scurrilouslyer covered with title of a King a clown a block-head foolish wicked and impudent Henry and saies that he lies like a scurrilous knave and thou liest in thy throat foolish and sacrilegious King e Luth tom 2. fol 333 334 335. 338. 340. Nor did he less rail at other Princes as at the Duke of Brunswick in his Book called Wider hans worst written purposely against him as also against the Bishop of Mentz one of the Princes Electors f Tom 3. Germ fol 533. 339. 360. And against the Princes of Germany g