therefore they be no parties thereto Whereas yowe promise so largely on the diuelles behalfe yow maie be bolde for as muche as he is hable to doe he is at youre commaundement To youre conclusion that the worde of God is the true B. 13. iudge in all controuersies and doubtes of religion I saie as I saide before that when the church hathe giuen sentence of the meaning and right vnderstanding of the scripture that then in that sense and no otherwise the scripture is the true iudge in all controuersies otherwise I saie that the worde of God lieng yeat in the lettre as it were in the huske is an vncerteine iudge to determine controuersies what so euer Luther Caluin or their adherentes the rest of that blacke garde do saye to the contrarie or be M. Nowell neuer so angry therewith Whereas I declared before what starting holes the Arrians Fol. 105. a ▪ 23. rians Anabaptistes Lutherans Caluinistes and other heretikes haue founde out for the mainteinaunce of their religion and that vpon the same groundes and principles anye desperate heretike that is maie mainteine anye heresie yow take occasion of that worde desperate heretike to reherce once againe a place of S. Cyprian where he calleth by the same name yowe saie all suche as thinke one bishop inferiour to an other as I and all other papistes Cap. 11. sub finem doe but the contrarie to that I haue showed before And surely to thinke thus if it be to be a desperate heretike M. Nowell contrarie to him selfe or a desperate heretike and papist by his owne confessiō or a papist either I praie yowe what be yowe M. Nowell that in youre boke fol. 32. a confesse that in euerie prouince there be certeine chiefe prelates Doeth not the worde chiefe import that there be other inferiour prelates Which worde if yow will nowe reuoke againe if youre bishop will not I trust youre pretensed Archebishop will call yow to a count for it That whiche foloweth fol. 105. b. and. 106. a. because it conteineth but vaine wordes and hathe bene in diuerse other places handled I will here passe ouer Of the place of S. Hierome taken out of his epistle to Damasus and that it hathe bene alleaged to the purpose without wresting or falsifieng The 28. chapiter PROSEcuting this controuersie whether the scripture as we haue it written were hable alone without other meanes to determine all controuersies the whiche the heretike seeth being proued that it can not it will nedes folowe that there must be some other iudge to supplie that office I saide that S. Hierome notwithstanding his greate and excellent knowledge in the tongues woulde not take vpon him to leane in the discussing of doubtes to that rule of theirs to laie and confer together one texte with an other but referred him selfe to the see of Rome c. whose example I exhorted also other to folowe To this M. Nowell answereth as foloweth S. Hierome saieth no where that he would enot compare the Nowell fol. 106. a. 23. scripture together for the discussing of doubtes as M. Dorman woulde beare vs in hande and S Austen saieth he woulde doe it and exhorteth other to doe the same Where doe I beare yowe in hande that S. Hierome Dorman saide that he woulde not not compare the scriptures together A lye 81 ▪ for the discussing of doubtes Why noted you not here the leafe and side I denie not but that it is a necessarie and verie proffitable waie of reading the scriptures to conferre the places together And so doubte I not but that S. Hierome aswell as S. Augustine vsed to doe The whiche maketh verye muche for the Catholique opinion that all questions can not be discussed by thys conference off scripture For iff they coulde what neded S. Hierome so well learned as he was in this controuersie betwene the Catholikes and the Arrians to write so far out of the wildrenes of Syria to Damasus the pope a man allthough singulerly well learned yeat not comparable with him for learning to be resolued at his mouthe what parte to take whereas he had with him the scriptures of God by the whiche by youre saing if he had diligently conferred them together he might haue bene fully instructed in al pointes What ment he elles that he vsed not nowe his accustomed maner of conference but that he sawe that this was a question that coulde not so be tried and therefore he woulde consulte Damasus who being he persuaded him selfe the successour of Peter shoulde be able sufficiently by the grace giuen to that office to resolue him in that which by all his owne labour and diligence he were not at all or not so soone and certeinly hable to finde out S. Hieromes wordes to Damasus Bishop of Rome make nothing Nowell against vs nor with M. Dorman For what merueile is it if that S. Hierome borne in a coast of Italy christened at Rome brought vp at Rome and made prieste at Rome woulde in the faithe of the blessed Trinitie rather ioyne him selfe in communion with Damasus bishop of Rome a learned and godly mā then with Vitalis and Meletius whome M. Dorman calleth Miletus and Paulinus who were Antiochiā bishoppes and therfore strangiers to him and also not cleere from the Arrian heresie That you reporte of S. Hierome that he was borne in a Dorman The place of S. Hieto me to Damasus Tom. 2. epist ad Damasum examined Lib. de ecclesiastie scriptorib coast of Italie it is vntrue For he was as he writeth him selfe borne in a towne called Stridon in the borders of Dalmatia and Pannonia whereas Italie it is well knowen neuer reached so farre or if it had neuer did the peculier prouince of the bishop of Rome extende thither for whiche respect Damasus might be accounted his bisshop But supposing this to be as true as the rest that he was Christened at Rome c. Yeat the causes whiche S. Hierome addeth why he ioyned him selfe to him rather then to anie other maie euidently make faithe that neither because he was borne in a coaste of Italie neither because he was christened brought vp or made prieste in Rome but because he was the successour of Peter he ioyned him selfe to hym in communion rather then to anie other For that ment he by these wordes Beatitudinituae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior To youre holinesse that is to saye to Peters chaire am I ioyned in communion Tell vs if you can what there neded here anie mention of Peters chaire to be made but that he woulde declare therby the only respect of his communicating with him to be because he was the successour of Peter An other cause which yeat might trulier be called a cause or reason of the first cause why he ioyned him selfe to him that sate in Peters chaire your selfe woulde seme to haue founde out in these wordes folowing But will M. Dorman saye S. Hierome
inuent to spotte them there with are compelled at the last with shame inough to twhite this greate post to a pudding pricke saing that there be schismes emongest the catholikes about Genus and Species and the rest of the predicables because forsothe some men be of one minde about them and are called by a name agreable to their opinion Nominals other some off an other minde and be called Realles But yow haue better stuffe then this yow will saie for yow aske VVhat be these Benedictines CistertiaÌ„s Carmelites Carthusians Dominicans Franciscanes with others like an huge numbre Nowell 54. b. 25. but names of popishe schismes and sectes Who all forsaking the religion and name of Christe haue chosen to be called religiouse as by a speciall name of a seuerall religion and to be named after Matth. 23. men their fathers on earthe forsaking the heauenly father c. That whereof youre Apologie for shame woulde saie Dorman nothing you so muche are you one alone more impudent then so manie as were the compilers thereof set out to the vauntage making a greate matter therof Youre Apologie saieth I saie nothing of so manie diuersities of friers and mockes You saie they shall not escape youre handes so You call their names the names of popishe schismes and sectes their persones you charge with the forsaking of the name and religion of Christe c. Had it not bene better for you M. Nowell to haue imitated also the countrefeit modestie of youre Apologie rather then by suche vnmercifull dealinge to slaundre and beelye youre Christian brethren Thought you that you should be able to make anie honest nature beleue that these religiouse men whome you here name professing to be of this or that ordre shoulde in so doing forsake bothe the religion and name of Christe What is if this be not an impudent lye of all other that I haue hearde moste like to that made by youre felowe Fox when he saieth that Bradforde was charged by the Quenes councel that then was emongest other thinges with the beleuing Actes and monumentes fo 1173 b. and preaching of Christe crucified What will these lieng Maisters be ashamed to feine that vtter suche vntruthes as these are It is false that you saie to coloure the better youre slaunderousse reporte that they haue chosen to be called religiouse as by a speciall name of a seuerall religion For as the religion is not seuerall but the same that is common to all true Christians so neuer gaue the professours therof anie suche name to them selues to be called religiouse The vniforme consent it is of good men thorough out al the worlde that hath giuen them that name as to those that hauing chosen a kinde of life more streighter and painefull theÌ„ the common sorte of men haue done the rather to atteine to the perfection as muche as mannes infirmitie wil suffer in this life of that one religion which we all professe haue semed best worthy therof It is the maner therfore of conuersation and liuing in this one common religion that seuereth the folowers therof from the rest not religion Religion hath two significations it selfe Religion hathe two significations M. Nowell The one concerneth faithe and so there is in all the worlde but one religion to witte of the catholike Christians as S. Austen noteth the other perteineth to vertue and good life And so there are bothe diuersities and degrees of religion as the same S. Austen reconing vp Anachoretes Eremites Cloister monckes nonnes and colleages of religiouse not without reioising therein obiecteth Lib. de morib eccl Cath. cap. 31. to the Manichees But how forsake they the religion and name of Christe M. Nowell why tell you vs not Thinke you that it maye be laufull for you in print to vse youre pulpite talcke and flowing in your ruffianly Rhetorike to droppe in slaunderouse lies as yow doe without all proufe These religiouse men that yow mention folowe Christe in pouertie as the Apostles did and manie holie men in all ages haue done and as Christe him selfe gaue the yong man councell to doe that asked what waye he shoulde take to get heauen when he bad him if he Matth. 19. woulde be perfecte to sell all that he had giue it to the pore and folowe him They vowe chastitie to be the more apte to serue Christe as the Apostle saieth of them that be 1. Cor. 7. vnmaried They renounce them selues vtterly by vowing obedience to their heade whiche oure Sauiour willeth Lucae 9. them to doe that will folowe him In all this what is there to be misliked where is anie forsaking of Christes name and religion Where are the popishe schismes and sectes that you rauingly talcke of If these be schismes and sectes if to liue thus be to forsake Christes name and religioÌ„ then is Christe the auctor of oure schismes then haue the holie fathers Paulus Hilarion Anthonie Basile Hierome Austen yea the Apostles them selues forsaken Christes name and religion Who bothe haue pracâ—ised this kinde of life in them selues and earnestly commâ—n did the same to their folowers O God for thy mercy how perilouse are the daies that we liue in How farre are the heresies of our time passing those whiche in times past haue bene raised vp and haue raged in thy churche This maner of life which M. Nowell here declameth against and calleth schismaticall persuaded by Christe practised by the Apostles and from their time continued in the churche till oures as the stories of all ages beare witnesse hathe bene by good men alwayes honoured by tirantes and infidelles wondred at euen by the worst kinde of men well spoken of onelye proude protestants and licentiouse Libertines who neither can saye well nor doe well call it schismatical terme it a for saking of Christes name and religion Whereof as we haue here by one of them a glimmering in generall wordes so hath his felowe giuen vs a perfect sight and full viewe thereof in the combate that he kepeth with the blessed spirite of that holye saincte then whome since the Apostles tyme I maye be bolde to saye there liued not one that expressed Fox kepeth a coÌ„bate with S. FrauÌ„ces in his Actes and monumeÌ„tes fol. 70 more neare the lyfe and conuersation of oure sauiour S. Frauncis him selfe He calleth him Assisian asse because he was borne in a towne called Assisium rude idiot and Frantike frauncis him selfe being as verie an asse as euer was breade in the mountaines of Arcadia for so saing a right idiott for calling the wisedome of God foolishenes 1. Cor. 3. and if not when he made that houge donghill yeat surelye at that time when he imagined him selfe to be an Vrinall a frantike Fox And why giueth he to him these reprochefull titles I praie you Forsothe he calleth him Asse rude Ideott c. because I will vse his owne wordes hearing vpon a tyme howe Christ sent furthe his disciples to
Religion was considered Dorman two wayes either as it perteineth to faithe or to maners In the first sense there was neuer man nor woman yeat that woulde otherwise haue answered you not if yow had met ten thousande one after an other but that they were all Christians That they did customably otherwise answere it was in this latter sense as taking those that asked them the question to meane of their rule and profession of life not of their faithe whereof they had cause to thinke that the demaunders of suche questions being Christians were not ignorant Of this there can be no better proufe then that if in Englande when religiouse men were there of Fūladres Spaine Italy or any place where they now be a knowen Iue or infidell shoulde aske any religiouse man or woman of what religion they were they woulde to suche a one answere furthwith that they were Christiās not Franciscanes Dominicanes etc. because they would iudge the question to concerne religion as it perteineth to faith not otherwise And so what haue you gotten by this These so diuerse sectes of false religion abandoned now out of Nowell fo 56. a. 1. England and the one true religion of oure Sauiour Iesus Christe only there remaining I merueile with what face you can charge vs with schismes and sectes which is youre owne speciall sore These so diuerse ordres of religiouse men being all of Dorman one religion by beliefe and therfore no schismes nor sectes of false religion these by youre meanes being wickedly abandoned out of Englande whereas they remaine yeat in all catholike countries to the inestimable comforte of good people and so manie false religions schismes and hesies brought in by you in to their place as well with vs as elles where where you haue displaced them I merueile with what face you can charge men and wemen of one faithe and beliefe with schismes which is a breache of the cōmon faithe I merueile with what harte you coulde charge the blessed Apostles the Nicene councell the learned fathers with norishing of schismes and sectes emōgest them for squaring only about priuate matters I merueille with what stomake you coulde alleage schoolemen and Logiciners to proue schismes ▪ and sectes emongest the Catholikes I merueile with what vnbridled boldenes you coulde call the diuersitie of apparell girdles hose yea shoes diuersitie of meates c. the verie propertie of schismes and sectes Last of all ▪ I merueile with what face you can charge vs with schismes and sectes which is youre owne special sore And where you warne the renders vpon experience of the multitude Nowell of schismes lately risen sithen the forsaking of that one popishe heade to credite the auncient fathers as witnessing with you against vs you might as iustly warne them to credite the auncient Phariseis rather then Christe and his Apostles bothe for that the In psal 54 first heresy as S. Augustine saieth sprang emongest the disciples off Christe c. and also for that in the Apostles time some vsed such schismaticall sainges as these we holde of Paule some other we holde of Cephas c. whereas there was no such dissention emongest the highe priestes and phariseis but greate vnitie and concorde amongest them against Christes Apostles Nowe M. Nowell hauing done what he can to charge Dorman vs with schismes and knowing withall howe simple the stuffe is that he hathe brought hath founde at the length that it is best to renewe his former plea that is that it is no such greate matter though they agree not emongest them selues especially seing that as before he tolde vs that the Apostles were at dissension emongest them selues so here he will proue the like of the disciples and againe to deface oure vnitie and quiete agrement he hathe founde it to be right good councell to saye that that is no such great matter as the which is cōmon to vs with the Phariseis against them Christes Apostles and disciples forsothe Nowe is not here as I tolde you before a goodly religion Protestāts deface vnitie that maketh the Apostles and disciples of Christe schismatikes that when it can not haue vnitie to mainteine it laboureth all that it can to deface it But nowe let vs heare howe he proueth that their side ought not to be charged with schismes and sectes because I might as iustly he saieth warne men to credite the auncient phariseis rather then Christe and his Apostles Why then were there sectes and schismes betwene Christe and his Apostles as there are betwene Luther and his folowers or agreed the Phariseis in vnitye of one truth not onely against Christ and his but emongest them selues also as we Catholikes doe and euer haue done against Luther whome in this argument M. Nowell yow resemble to Christe and his Apostles For sectes and schismes to be betwene Christe and his Apostles that yow dare not plainely affirme but whereas that being the pretence whereby yow woulde defende youre schismes that yow shoulde haue proued yow leauing it altogether vnproued thinke youre selfe sufficiently discharged because the disciples of Christe fell into heresie Not doubting but emongest the simpler sorte heresie being proued within lesse then two lynes after the mentiō of the Apostles in the disciples they not obseruing the difference betwene Apostles and disciples woulde easely be deceiued and beleue that yow had sufficiently proued the Apostles heretikes For answere to this that yow bring here of the disciples I saye in fewe wordes that these disciples were not of the Apostles but of suche folowers and hearers of Christe as forsooke him before his passion when he preached of the blessed Sacrament as it appeareth in the ghospell The Apostles remained still with Christe their heade Ioan. 6. and forsooke him not Betwene Christe and them was moste perfecte vnitie and agreement Howe can yow then I praye you charge Christ and his Apostles with schismes because of the disciples departing frō Christ Let vs graūte your imaginatiō if you cā not otherwise vnderstād reason that Luther were Christ and Carolstadius Melanchthon with some other his Apostles If this your new Christe and his Apostles agreeing all in one faithe some other disciples comming to them shoulde reuolt and departe from them againe were this nowe a iust cause to call Luther and his companye agreeing all in one schismatikes I thinke yow will not saye so at the least there is no reason why suche departure shoulde preiudicate or hurte them that remaine quiete still as they did before If yow will not nor can not saye thus of Luther why saye yow so off Christe and his Apostles Why saye yow that we maye as iustlye call them schismatikes as we doe yow whereas youre false Christe and his owne Apostles neuer agreed together and oure true Christe with his his neuer disagreed And this is the cause why we call yow heretikes and schismatikes because yow nourishe and encreasse those heresies and schismes that
mitigate that cruell sentence off his and therefore he muste he saieth nedes confesse that there was when we lyued vnder the obedience off the pope a coloured kynde off quietnesse emongest vs. Surelye I am sorye M. Nowell that we can not saye as muche off yow that we can fynde no tyme when emongest yowe there was so muche as anye shadowe off coloured quietnesse But doe yow remembre withe what schismes and sectes yow charged vs before The Thomistes and Scotistes the Nominalles and Realles met they not daily at the scooles The Benedictines Cistertians Carmelites c. kept they their names so priuey that they were knowen to no man Their habite in some whit in other blacke c. were men so blinde they coulde not see Their diuerse diet their shauing going becking bowing c. were they thinges so priuilie vsed that no man knewe of them If these thinges were knowen to all men as they were how saie you that there was a coloured kinde of quietnesse emongest vs when the greatest and all the schismes and sectes that you coulde falsely charge vs withall were so farre from all colour that M. No. well writeth contraries they were manifest and open to the eyes of all men And thus are you manifestly contrary to your selfe saing here that we had emongest vs a coloured kinde of quietnes and before that lest the religiouse men whome you call sectes Fol. 114. a of Hypocrites shoulde not be knowen they studied for diuision and fled all shewe of vnitie But when that Christe the auctor of that light as he him selfe Nowell so 57. a. 7. and by his Apostles bewraied the errours of the Iuishe traditions by the saide light first springing and withall troubled their vnitie and concorde in the doctrine of suche traditions and their quietnesse in their Sinagoge so settled before so nowe the same oure sauiour in the time by his wisdome appointed c. In this place M. Nowell openeth to the worlde the secrete Dorman iudgementes of God about the restoring the truthe quite extinguished in these latter daies For proufe wherof the indifferent reader maye note that he who triumpheth so much of holie scripture and of the necessitie of prouing all thinges by the expresse lettre therof bringeth nowe no one texte or piece of texte out of the whole bible Yeat shal you see how weightie the matters are that he affirmeth First he saieth that oure Sauiour in the time by his wisedome appointed hath disclosed that the pope and his haue obscured hidden broken and forbidden the lawe of God Againe that this he hathe done by the light of his holie worde againe springing and shining to them sitting in palpable darckenes c. Nowe these pointes M. Nowell vttered by you without all warrant of scripture as they are the fundation of all youre religion so conteine they against oure Sauiour and his holie worde moste horrible blasphemies as the which importe an vtter ouerthrowe of the church and suche a terrible Eclipse and defect of light in that cleere sonne wherein the sonne of God hath pitched his beautiful tabernacle that the darckenes Psalâ— 18. you saye was palpable and coulde by no meanes be chased awaye till a lewde Apostata and ronneagate frier the worst man by the iudgement of his owne scholers that liued in his time and worst able to bridle his affections vpon malice enuie and couetousnes restored the same againe All that foloweth you builde vpon this fundation the which being naught the matter laied vpon it must nedes come downe withall And therfor it foloweth By this occasion is there risen a like schisme betwene you and Nowell vs as was betwene S. Paule and the Phariseis c. Here you heape nombre of lies together laing to oure Dorman charge that the cause why we crye and barcke you saie against you is because by this occasion of the light oure gaine is decaied oure quietnes troubled oure rest interrupted oure good cheare marred oure pompe abated We are not offendid with you for this M. Nowell The cause of oure misliking with your religion and why we call you schismatikes you dare not so muche as name which is because you separate youre selues from Christes churche because you teache contrarie to the scriptures that the churche of Christe prophecied by the prophetes promised by Christ to continue for euer hathe bene quite ouerthrowen To this because you can not answere you feine other causes at youre pleasure to bring vs into hatred Of the which faultes obiected by you to the catholikes I saye generally as S. Austen did to the Donatistes obiecting the like In his omnibus nullum crimen orbis Li. de vnit eccl cap. 2. Christiani esse ostendimus we shewe you that in al these thinges which you laye to vs there is no faulte of the whole christendome And againe ad quosdam quippe illa perimere possunt non ad vniuersum orbem christianum for those faultes maye perteine to some they can not be the faultes of al Christendome Leaue therfore M. Nowel these extrauagant excursions of railing against the euill life of some or abuses of certeine wherewith a greate parte of this idle Reproufe of youres is stuffed and come to the doctrine it selfe Proue vs your negatiue diuinitie by the rule and trial of holy Scripture by the councels and decree of the church or by the learned fathers if yow be hable It is an easie matter sayeth Saint Augustine to the Donatistes either for yow Lib. de vuit eccl cap. 5. to call vs Phariseis or for vs to cal yow so It is as easy for vs to saye that yow persecute vs the true beleuers as the Phariseis persecuted the Apostles as it is for you to saye as yow doe here that we folowe the Phariseis in persecuting yow It is as easy for vs to saye that you are lyke painted graues full of olde rotten bones within pretending outewardly Gods worde contempte of the worlde brotherlye charitye c. being within couetouse whoorders vp greate exactours of mony proude cruell with suche lyke and so call yow Phariseis as it is for yow to saye and write the same of vs. But M. Nowell though Christ as the searcher Rom. 8. and iudge of mennes hartes might boldely so pronounce of the Phariseis whome he knewe better within then other did without yeat we must not iudge other lest we be iudged oure selues as the ghospell teacheth vs. Briefly the strife Matth. 7. wil be endelesse vaine and childishe if in controuerfie of doctrine and religion suche impertinent discourses be entremingled Wisedome it had bene for yow M. Nowell to haue pricked directly at the matter of schismes discharging thereof plainely youre selues by shewing that yowe ioyne in communion with all the worlde and not to haue roued as you haue done now here nowe there at no certeine marke And so finally for this parte of purgation of oure selues against Nowell fol.
thought that he woulde in this case make lesse prouision for his churche then a temporall king will for the due administration of his lawes and the preseruing of vnitie emongest his subiectes Neither is it anie iniurie to the scripture or derogatiō to the maiestie thereof that the malice of men maketh it lesse sufficient to condemne heresies especially seing as Tertullian saieth the scriptures haue bene Lib. de praescript haeretic 1. Cor. 11. by the will off God so disposed as that they might ministre matter to heretikes seing it is writtē that there must be heresies which cā not be withowt the scriptures To this obiection of myne that the scriptures be so written that there was neuer heretike yeat that dyd not alleage scripture for the maintenaūce of the same and that thought not by the scriptures him selfe wel able to defende the same note I besech the good reader that M. Nowel maketh here no answere at al. Onely he maketh against this an other obiectiō that so the pope maye vnder b. 5. the name of the church mainteine and defende all errours and superstitions Whiche if it were true what woulde folowe other of this conclusion but that there shoulde be no iudge at all Is not this a propre kinde of answering trowe you But because the matter shall not remaine in that incerteintie I will M. Nowell answere youre reason although you woulde not answere mine I saye therefore that the pope as heade of Christes churche that is to saye defining or decreeing anye thinge concerning the affaires and busines thereof neuer erred yeat nor euer shall I proue it by auctoritye and by reason By the auctoritie of oure Sauiour him selfe who praing that Peters faithe might not faile coulde Lucae 22. not but obteine Whiche priuileage so obteined seing that Christe builded his churche not to continue for Peters lyfe tyme but for euer we maye not doubte but that it was giuen also to his successours S. Augustine as I noted before Epis 165. applied the wordes of Christ spoken of the Phariseis sitting in Moises chaire Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt Matth. 23. nolite facere Loke what they bid you doe doe it but do not as they do to the bishoppes of Rome succeding Peter and addeth that in so doing oure faithe shal be suer and certeine as the whiche being placed not in man but on God can neuer be scattred with anye tempest of schisme You haue the auctoritie of the Scripture you haue the iudgement of S. Augustine that Peters faithe shall continue in him and in his successours that to doe as they commaunde is to make oure faithe suer and defensible against the tempestes of all schismaticall stormes Now harken to reason Christe promised for euer to abide with his churche S. Paule calleth it the Matt. 28. 1. Timo. 3. piller of truthe If Christe be with it it can not erre if it be the piller of truth it admitteth no falsehode if it can admit no falsehode the pope whiche is the heade thereof and appointed by God to gouerne it in earthe can not in the gouernement thereof erre For if the heade might erre then might the whole body which is bound to folow the heade And thus bothe by auctoritie and reason by experience of these 1500. yeares it appeareth that there is greate difference betwene the two likelihodes that you put in the pope and in other priuate men touching the interpretatiō of the scripture And therefore vppon the ouerthrowe of this downe commeth all that you builde thereupon eitherin this place or elles where Hauing nowe taken youre pleasure sufficiently at vs comparing vs with Annas and Caiphas calling vs theeues aduersaries of the ghospell guiltie of manye heresies corruptions of religion and false superstitions you entre in to a common place of councelles whereof you saye as foloweth But the aduersaries off the Ghospell deale thus with vs Nowell b. 20. The Pope and all hys cleargye being guiltie off manye heresies c. and thereof accused doe assemble them selues together in a councell in the whiche nothing maye be moued muche lesse determined but suche as pleaseth the Pope him selfe there is enquirie made of vs who doe accuse them thereoff and offer to proue it and there vnhearde and vnseene we are condemned of our aduersaries c. Yow here note in the margent for the proufe hereof Dorman that nothing maie be moued in the councell but suche as pleaseth the pope Pighius in his 6. booke and first chapitre of his Hierarchie This place yowe alleaged before As I tolde you then so doe I nowe that you haue beelied Pighius Supra fol. 24. b. For he saieth not as you doe here that nothing maie be moued in the councell but suche as pleaseth the pope He saieth Haud feré fit almoste it is not otherwise not denieng as you saye he dothe that it can not be otherwise The wordes of Pighius note rather the greate diligence of the pope whiche is suche that when all the worlde shall meete together in a generall councell they can not for the moste parte name anye thinge to be refourmed or concluded that the Bishoppe of Rome with his learned councell about him hath not before forseene and handled then take awaye libertie from anye man to moue anie doubte to be resolued not considered before by the pope That the pope moueth ordinarily suche doubtes to the councell i st that offende you be angry with S. Peter his predecessour who practised the same first in the generall councell mentioned in the Actes of thapostles You accuse the pope and his and Act. 15. offer to proue it It is in deede the cōmon bragge of you al to saie you can proue vs Phariseis corrupters of religiō that the churche of Christe hathe vtterly failed and so furth The whiche if yow feare to proue in generall councelles yeat yow might me thinketh giue vs a taste of your prouffes in youre poisoned writinges To that that yowe complaine that yow are condemned vnhearde and vnsene we saie as yow gessed we woulde that yow might be hearde if yow listed against the whiche answere of oures yow replie How we are called and how we maie be heard let Iohn Husse Nowell fo 70. a. 2 called by the emperour Sigismunde his saulfe conduct vnder his greate emperiall seale to the councell of Constance with Hierom of Prague who bothe were contrary to the faithe giuen them by the greatest christian prince in the world condemned and burned to asshes be an eternall witnesse yea let their owne decree made in the saide councell which was that no faithe nor promise is to be kepte to anie heretike nor that anie man by anie promise standeth bounde to an heretike c. be a perpetuall testimonye off the same Beholde howe manie lyes in howe fewe lynes Iohn Dorman Husse being called to the councell of Constance brake the conditions of his saulfe conduct
For wheras he promised the emperour to continue at the councell to the ende and therupon had the saulfe conduct graunted he not trusting therto conueighed him selfe out of Constance couered in a carte with strawe He absteined not beside being excommunicate and not hauing learned so farre as yow are come nowe from saing of masse contrarye to the lawes of the churche and expresse commaundement of the councell So that seing in euerie saulfe conduct the partie to whome it is graunted is aswell bounde to obserue the conditions on his parte to be obserued as he that graunted it is to perfourme semblably his promise the which Husse dyd not yow haue herein sclaundred the councell and made a lie Lye 59. If yow denie this yow maie consulte the historie of Vlrichus Reichentall who being a citezin of Constance was su a Teutonic histor de Concil Constant then presente at the councell when these thinges happened and reporteth thereof as hathe bene declared That yow ioine to Husse Hierome of Prague that is an other lye For as Hierom neuer would venture so farre as to trust A lie 60. to anie saufeconduct so was he taken against his will and Actes and monumentes fo 243. brought to the councell as witnesseth youre felowe Fox Nowe foloweth the greatest lye of all and that is of a decree that shoulde be made in the councell off Constance that no faithe or promise is to be kepte to anye heretike nor that anye man by anye promise standeth bounde to an heretike I will here alleage the wordes of the decree which this falsefier durst not for feare of being betraied They are these Praesens sancta synodus ex quouis saluoconductu per imperatorem â—ess 19. reges alios seculi principes hereticis vel de heresi diffamatis putantes eosdeÌ„ sic a suis erroribus reuocare quocunque vinculo se astrinxerint concesso nulluÌ„ fidei catholicae vel iurisdictioni ecclesiasticae praeiudiciuÌ„ generari vel impedimentum prestari posse seu debere declarat quominus dicto saluoconductu non obstante liceat iudici competenti ecclesiastico de huiusmodi personaruÌ„ erroribus inquirere alià s contraeos debite procedere eosdemque punire quantum iustitia suadebit si suos errores reuocare pertinaciter recusauerint etiamsi de saluo conductu confisi ad locum venerint iudicij alias non venturi nec sic promittentem quum alià s fecerit quod in ipso est ex hoc in aliquo remansisse obligatum That is to saie This present holie sinode declareth that notwithstanding any saufeconduct graunted by the emperour kinges or other seculer princes to heretikes or diffamed of heresie vpon hope thereby to call them from their errours with whatsoeuer bonde they haue bounde them selues that yeat there shall not or maie not growe thereby any preiudice to the catholike faithe or ecclesiasticall iurisdiction in suche wise that it maie not be laufull for the competent and ecclesiasticall iudge to enquier of the errours of suche persones and otherwise to procede duly against them and to punishe them as iustice shall requier if obstinately they refuse to reuoke their saide errours yea allthough they trusting vpon the saufeconduct came thither which otherwise they woulde not haue done and that he that maketh this promise when otherwise he hathe done what is in him to doe remaineth not hereby in anie thing bounde These be the wordes of the councell this is the decree that yow pretende to feare Yow saie the councell hathe decreed that no faithe is to be kepte to anie heretike the councell hathe onlie that suche faithe as is giuen by temporall princes in matters of heresie not perteining to their iurisdiction is not to be holden in suche wise as it might preiudice the ecclesiasticall iurisdiction The cleane contrarye therefore appeareth by the councell to that whiche yowe saie that is that faithe giuen by some men shoulde holde and be good otherwise the exception of seculer princes had bene made in vaine wheras the councell might haue saide as yowe doe that no faithe without exception shoulde be kepte Wherfore I conclude that all faithe gyuen to anye heretique by anye ecclesiasticall persone laufully auctorized is good and to be kepte and The couÌ„cell of CoÌ„stance falsified by M. Nowell by making a triple lye 63. that therefore you haue falsified this councell in making it to speake generally of all men of all faithe of all heretikes whiche speaketh but only of seculer princes who haue no auctoritie to make any suche promise of that whiche perteineth not to theire power and iurisdiction And therfore euen as he that promiseth an other mannes facte promiseth his only diligence and is bounde no fâ—rder so the councell declared that seculer princes promising to heretikes saufeconduct to come and to go because they promised factum alienuÌ„ the deede of other men were hauing done their diligence to perfourme their promise discharged and no longre bounde Nowe I praie you M. Nowel because you complaine that offering to proue the pope and his cleargie guiltie of manie heresies corruption of religion c. you can not be hearde or if audieÌ„ce were graunted to you promise were not like to be kepte because of this decree of the councell of Constance let vs examine how true this is The councell of Constance as by the wordes of the decree euidently appeareth declared only that promises made by laie princes did not binde the makers When you were called to the last councell of Trent was the saufeconduct that was offered to you made by the emperour only or some other seculer prince Was it not made by the bodie and heade of that moste holie and learned councell one of them that euer was assembled with suche assurance for youre indemnitie as greater by mannes witte coulde not be deuised Why came you not then why put you not in youre accusations why durst The protestantes feine false causes to excuse theÌ„ for not appearing at the generall councell you not shewe youre faces Who seeth not that the pretending for the cause of your refusall of this forged decree proceded of feare to be vanquished in youre heresies not to be harmed in youre bodies Who perceiueth not that in this drawing backe of youres you countrefeited some cowardly yeoman that fearing to be pressed to the warre causeth his wife to binde a clowte about his heade and then his kerchiefe being sicke he must nedes tarie at home forsothe who if sicknes had not lette him woulde haue killed the enemies all of them him selfe as you woulde the pope and all his cleargie had not this decree bene Wel your witte shewed it selfe more in tarieng at home then youre honesty hath done here in falsifieng this decree They saie we are heretikes we doe denie it if our naie maie not Nowell a. 14. Dorman defende vs why shoulde their yea condemne vs c. We saye not onelie that you be heretikes Reade M. Nowel the.
Dorman vaine or euill thing neither because the Arrians and Anabaptistes vsed it neither for any other cause you haue therfore beelied me once more I acknowledge it to be bothe A lye 80. proffitable and necessarie only I saie that to ende all controuersies it is an insufficient meanes Because reiecting the determination of the churche you take vpon you as the Arrians did and the Anabaptistes doe to mainteine youre heresies by this pretensed conference of scripture not regarding that suche iudgement belongeth to the churche therefore I call yow and iustly terme you heretikes And as I doe reiect this conference that you talcke of because you vse it to that ende that these heretikes did so doe I refuse all suche scripture toe as is falsely wrested as was that whiche the diuell alleaged In whiche sense because Christe and his Apostles neuer alleaged anie I can not finde faulte with them I can not you saye deuise a waye that shoulde satisfye Nowell a. 20. all heretikes withoute all contradiction or exception on their parte I can deuise no waie in dede M. Nowell to satisfie al heretikes Dorman it passeth my power I cōfesse But God hathe deuised a waye to ouerthrowe all heresies if suche as you are woulde The way to ouerthrowe heresies be no let to his working And that is the thinge that ought to suffice vs. Will you knowe what waye it is Forsothe if this principle and grounde the which I labour to proue that Christes churche here in earthe being but one and visible hathe also one chiefe visible heade to rule and gouerne the same were thoroughly as it ought to be persuaded to all men then the heretike which nowe by coloured argumentes triumpheth ouer not onely the meaner sorte but also oftentimes many of the wiser and better learned the thinge called into question being either suche as is the question of baptising of infantes as whereof we haue no expresse scripture but onelye a tradition continued in the churche from the Apostles time and deliuered from hande to hande to vs either elles so perplexe and doubteful as the aduersarie will for his heresie bring not onely as many but mo textes also that shall seme to make for his purpose then shall the catholike as did the Arrian then shoulde I saye the heretike in al mens iudgemēt although neuer in his owne easely be discomfited and ouerthrowen For then let the Anabaptiste crie as muche as he woulde that the baptisme of infantes hathe no grounde of scripture the meanest man in a parishe woulde be able to tell him Sir the churche whiche I am bidden to giue eare to by the scripture vseth it and hathe done from the beginning this suffiseth me Againe let the Arrian bringe and heape together all the scripture that he hathe let him vse all his shiftes distinctions and gloses when he hathe all done the true catholike seketh after the interpretation of the churche that interpretation to witte that the membres agreing with the heade obserue and haue obserued vniuersally thoroughe out the whole worlde Thus if the more parte of men woulde doe as they ought neither woulde heretikes haue any list to publishe heresies their starting holes being by this wholesome remedie taken awaye neither shoulde they being brought furthe into the light be hable anie while to continue And this call I the ouerthrowing of heretikes and heresies For to persuade an indurat heretike by anye meanes I confesse it to be a thing impossible seing that not euerye man that is a true Christian can by conference of the scripture be by and by persuaded in all doubtes as you here vntruly saye he maye When partes be taken in opinions emongest learned men eache parte forcing the scriptures by conference and otherwise to make for that sense which he hathe conceiued is no man a true Christian but he that cā be satisfied in this case by the scripture Hath it not bene sene that the mainteiners of suche contrary opinions beinge for vertue and learning estemed of the worlde haue made also right good Christians to doubte And what case had Christe lefte vs in if in this perplexitie there were not a churche to directe vs if that churche had not a heade to speake to vs which being in S. Augustine and Prospers tyme Prosper lib. contra Collator cap. 10. Zozimus the Pope as you hearde before shewe vs nowe if you can why Pius the pope shoulde not be the lyke And thus you see M. Nowell I truste that you haue to muche abused bothe the Readers and me in labouring firste to persuade that I mislike the Scriptures whiche I doe in no sense or the conference thereof whiche I doe not simply but in this respecte that you contende that that waye alone is sufficient to ende all controuersies nexte in this that you altre my reason whiche is that because by this pretensed conference of youres heresies can neuer be ouerthrowen while by the subtilitye of heretikes alleaging scripture conferring scripture and that so probably that euen the best learned maye be shaken in their faithe and so heresie mainteined you make the same reason to be because there can no waye possibly be founde able to satisfie all frowarde heretikes Vppon this supposall of youres that I reiect this conference of scripture as no sufficient meane to ende all controuersies because it can not satisfie al men you aske this question And thinketh he that Popes of Rome men of suche lyfe suche Nowell b. 6. Holde the man a bowle for he will vomite partialitie suche ignorance such vntruthe such falsehode such bribery Simoniakes poisonners murtherers shal satisfie all men in all iudgementes of all causes and controuersies yea in their owne verye causes wherein they be parties and that without all exception The diuell they shall and that I may saye truly Non loqueris sed latras you speake not here M. Nowell Dorman but you barcke you reason not but you raile If all these faultes that you here heape together were in one pope at one time yeat shoulde they not be all any let why the same might not and shoulde not giue true iudgement and satisfie all good men To this I haue answered before where Cap. 3. fol. 8. b. 10 fol. 39. b. yow gaue me like occasion thither I remit the reader Yeat this I woulde faine knowe of yowe by the waie and desire yow when yow wright nexte to resolue me therein whether if these popes had the contraries to these vices that is so manie vertues yowe thinke they might giue true iudgement and satisfie all men If yow saie they could not what neded then this odiouse rehersall of so manie grieuouse faultes seing by no meanes they coulde If yowe saie that being good men they might then shewe scripture or bring reason to proue that this auctoritie is lost by euill manners In controuersies rising vpon the scripture the popes cause is not handled but gods and