Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	scripture_n	sense_n	true_a	4,624	5	5.7921	4	false

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A11187	The dialogues of William Richworth or The iudgmend [sic] of common sense in the choise of religion	Rushworth, William.	1640 (1640)	STC 21454; ESTC S116286	138,409	599

two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can

it but by the scripture which we doe not hold to be sufficient to determrne controuersies without tradition So that I haue no more to saye to you but wish you may begine this new yeare with a good night's rest which God send vs both Whether scripture alone is fit and able to decide controuersies in Religion THis Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. The Preface or introduction 2. That tradition for scripture is not of as great force as for pointes of Doctrine 3. That tradition for scripture is not more vniuersall then tradition for doctrine 4. That it is impossible the text of scripture should haue remained incorrupted 5. What vncertaintie the errors of writers and copists hath bredd in scriptures 6. What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations hath bredd in scripture 7. That the verie repeating and reciting of an others words breedeth a varietie and vncertaintie 8. The vncertaintie of EquiuocatioÌ„ which of necessitie is incident in all writings 9. That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceased 10. The vncertaintie which followeth the particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was vritten 11. That the nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting for deciding of controuersies 12. Two manners of iudging of Religion out of scripture 13. How scripture doth determine controuersies 14. what laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture 15. Of an other manner of disputing out of scripture Â§. 1 The Introduction VNCLE How now cozen what make's you so early this morning could you not sleepe this last night Nephew Yes indifferent well I thanke God but t' is not verie early Howsoeuer if I be trublesome I will expect your better leasure for I am come only to tell you a scrupule that I had yesternight which hath tormeÌ„ted me euer since And it is that we Catholikes who beare so great reuerence and veneration to the holy scripture receiue more of it then others write infinite volumes of commentaries vpon it as Paul's church yard can witnesse and are so exact to improue our selues I meane our learned men in the knowledge of it should neuerthelesse when wee come to ioyne in the maine point that is to the decision of controuersies in Religion seeme to fly of and recurre to other iudges though we acknowledge it to be Christ owne word and law And now I haue tould you my difficultie I will leaue you to your better imployments knowing how much you esteeme and how precious you accompt your mornings and therefore I will make bould to call for your answere an other time Vncle. Nay stay cozen God forbid I should thinke I could better imploy my time then in giuing you satisfaction in question of such importance or that you should be importune vnto me by desiring the knowledge of a thing so necessarie and so be seeming you I were to blame if I would not leaue euen my prayers to assist you in this point and perhaps an other time you will not be so earnest on it Although I must coÌ„fesse I am some what vnwilling to diue into this questioÌ„ for I see by experieÌ„ce that the one part seeketh by all meanes to destroy the authoritie of God's church and the other seemeth to lessen the power of scripture for the deciding of controuersies so that indifferent men and as yet vnsetled be left as it were without all meanes of coming to the truth How soeuer necessitie excuseth vs for were our Aduersaries able to performe what they promise that is to resolue pointes of controuersies by scripture we were worse theÌ„ beasts if we should refuse to be iudged thereby But if to stand to scripture only as they doe be but a plausible way to Atheisme and so the question will only be whether we must rely vpon a church or be Athiests for we thinke by scripture alone lefâ—t without the guard of the church nothing or at least not enough for the saluation of mankinde can be sufficiently prouued then euerie man wil see that we are forced by reasoÌ„ and Religion to make euident and knowne as farr as we caÌ„ the necessitie of relying vpon a church and to vse all our power to persuade men therevnto And if you remember we said yesternight that Christian Religion or the law of Iesus Christ cannot be learned by witt and studie but by authoritie and by receiuing it from Iesus Christ And that wee said likewise that he is no true Christian nor truly of the communitie of Christians what so euer be his materiall beliefe who doth not accept of that rule and meanes which Iesus Christ hath left and ordained for the receipt of his law and the like of him who should follow anie other rule which must needes be ether scripture or tradition or both it will therefore euiâ—â—ntly follow that ether we must be no Christians or accept and acknowledge tradition to be this rule if wee can shew that the scripture is not fitt nor hath the conditions requisite for the deciding of controuersies nor was made or left to the church for this end Nephew The greater is the necessitie of this question the more gladd am I that I haue moued it though me thinke's I my self might well see it is not fitt to make the scripture iudge of coÌ„trouersies because we finde by experience that after so manie disputations and so manie bookes written on ether side there is nothing resolued nor are we the nearer an end and therefore t' is euident that scripture alone will neuer decide and determine our quarells and disputes Vncle. Well cozen since you will haue it so our first question shall bee Â§. 2 Whether tradition for scripture be of as great force as it is for pointes of doctrine ANd first I pray you tell mee doe you thinke that the Apostles when they weÌ„t about the world to preach Christ Iesus carried with theÌ„ all the bookes of the ould and new Testament ether readie translated into the languages of the people whom they preached vnto or else caused them to be translated by the first Christians Nephew I neuer thought of this question before but I see well enough that they could not carie all with them for some parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach nay I a'm not assured whether anie part of the new testament was made before their dispersion from Hierusalem so that well may they haue caried the ould Testament with theÌ„ if they thought it sitting but for the new they could not if I be not mistakeÌ„ Vncle. It is verie true I will tell you therefore cozen how the authoritie of the scripture that is Now the neW Testament Was pro aga ted of the new Testament came into the church An Apostle or Disciple writing a booke or Epistle coÌ„municated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it that church coÌ„municated it to their neighbours as the worke

a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske Â§. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my ReligioÌ„ out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozeÌ„ there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitioÌ„ to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectioÌ„ no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull aÌ„d make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commeÌ„ded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indiffereÌ„cie aÌ„d with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozeÌ„ how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatioÌ„ of the words of scripture these truths caÌ„not be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that caÌ„not be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experieÌ„ce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inueÌ„tion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a maÌ„ or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are doÌ„ne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatioÌ„ haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatioÌ„ of ReligioÌ„ out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue aÌ„d definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray Â§. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr froÌ„ disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a ProtestaÌ„t vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres staÌ„ding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what seÌ„se the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in

possession of that sense of the scripture which they preteÌ„ded to be false and wroÌ„g And surely no man of common sense who is in possessioÌ„ and hath the law in his owne hands will yeild it vp without euidence on the coÌ„trarie part The second rule I desire a Catholike should obserue is not to thinke his cause lost because him self cannot answere the argumeÌ„ts proposed against him nor to venter his cause and his possession vpon his owne wit For the disputation being in a matter wherein according to the Protestants groundes there is no certaintie it followeth that who hath the better wit or is more practized in this matter may bring an argumeÌ„t a good scholler cannot solue at the first sight though afterwards ether he or some other may And what a follie were it for a man to venture his soule and conscience vpon a subtilitie or present flash of wit whereof peraduenture within an hower hee him selfe will see the falsitie and condemne his owne errour Wherefore a Catholike is not to venter the cause vpon his owne head nor to confesse it weake because he cannot defende it for both may he improue him selfe and some others perhapps may goe farr beyoÌ„d him The third rule is that the Catholike should neuer vndertake to conuince his Aduersarie out of scripture but content him self that these words may well beare this sense which is in fauour of the Catholike church And this is both more easie to performe and sufficient for his pourpose For the Catholike hath an assured grounde of his faith besides scripture and which relyeth not vpon it nay he holdeth that his Religion cannot be wholy conuinced out of scripture to what end therefore vnlesse he would show his wit should he vndertake to proue his tenents by scripture For this were to strenghen his opponent in his owne grounde and principle to wit that all is to be proued out of scripture Nephew You would binde Protestants to verie vnequall conditions if you will oblige them to conuince and the Catholike not nay that it shal be sufficient for the Catholike to shew this may be the meaning of this or that place of scripture whereas the Protestant shal be forced to proue cleerely and euidently that this is the verie sense of the text Vncle. Not I cozen but the Protestants them selues oblige theÌ„ selues to this hard measure for if a man should strongly maÌ„taine that a Beetle were the best instrument to cut withall and you saie no were no he bound to cut with a Beetle and it were no sense to saie that you should be forced to doe it since you mantaine it to be impossible So they who hold that the scripture is the true iudge of controuersies and fit and able to decide all quarells and dissensions about the Christian faith and law binde them selues by holding this to conuince their positions by scripture which caÌ„not be exacted at his hands Who saith scripture was not made for this end nor is sufficient for it And looke vpon Luther and the Heretikes of his timeÌ„ nay vpon the Puritants of our days and see if they doe not all maÌ„taine that they can conuince their teneÌ„ts by scripture and saie that our forefathers were wholy ignorant of scripture and that wee now liuing knowe nothing of it But to goe on with our rules of disputing out of scripture The fourth condition shall bee that the Catholike doe not admitte anie negatiue proofes as to saie this is an errour because you can shew no scripture for it For this is no proofe vnlesse they will suppose that nothing is true but scripture or that there is nothing to bee donne but what is ordained by scripture which were absurd for nether Catholike nor I thinke anie good Protestant will admitte of that supposition being it were not only to take away the power of the church but euen nature from nature for nature teacheth vs to helpe our selues where scripture doth not contradict and as a Puritant seeketh a pulpit or high place to preach in without looking whether he haue a warrant for it in the scripture to command him so rationall and sensible men doe seeke a particular habit for a preacher or Clergie man whereby he may be more decent and comely and his words and exhortations be receiued with more respect and authoritie and this without anie coÌ„mande of the scripture which where it commandeth it maketh the thing coÌ„manded to be necessarie where it is silent there it maketh nothing vnlawfull Nephew If the Protestants were to disput vpon these conditions they would keepe of I warrant you Yet this I must tell you that it were a great satisfaction for indifferent men that haue beene brought vp in this verball and apparent respect of the scripture to see that the positions you would induce them vnto can bee and are maintened by scripture and that they are grounded therein This perhapps you can doe by shewing mee some other waie of dealing with theÌ„ and whether there be not Â§. 15 An other manner of disputing out of scripture VNcle For their sakes cozen I will tell you of an other sort of disputation wherein the Protestant shall haue no other disaduantage but of his cause For I thinke that the Catholike cause may not only be maintened by scripture but also that it hath the better staÌ„ding precisely to scripture alone I confesse this kinde of disputation is not fit for manie Auditors but only for moderate and vnderstanding men And it is to make this the question Whether partie is more probable if only scripture were to bee alleadged This Question requireth diuers suppositions where vpon both sides are to be agreed which I feare will bee some what hard As what texts are to preuaille what coÌ„mentaries or explicatioÌ„s shall be allowed of what is a proper and an improper speeche amongst improper speeches which must be preferred what copies of euerie text shal be held for good what coniectures shall be accounted null against the naturall sense And manie other such positions which would not be easily resolued This donne let both sides bring their places for the pointe in question and so the disputatioÌ„ will only be of the qualificatioÌ„ of the places that is to shew whether are more appareÌ„t and likely of the two And for this I see lekewise that so manie logicall principles are first to bee resolued which partly are found as yet amongst the critickes disputations as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford sufficieÌ„t light and instruction to make an euident conclusion whether side were more apparent in words and Tetxs And therefore you may ghesse how farr these disputations out of scripture are froÌ„ clearing doubts what litle good cometh of them vnlesse they bee well gouerned And how for the most part the best credit or the best tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weaknesse In a word the scripture being not written for this end to wit for the

THE DIALOGVES OF WILLIAM RICHWORTH OR The iudgmend of common sense in the choise of Religion Printed at Paris by IOHN MESTAIS 1640. TO THE READER M. r William Richworth borne in Lincolneshire studied in the English College at Doway there was made Priest and afterwards discharged the place and office of Prefect with much commendation all which time he was knowne by the name of Charles Rosse Comming into England he liued in diuers places with good esteeme vntill the yeare 1637 in which he dyed He was a man curious in Diuinitie Controuersies Mathematikes and Physicke but cheefely delighted in Mathematickes and by the name of Robinson entertained correspondence with the learned Oughtred He affected the rigor of mathematicall discourse euen in his controuersies as you may perceiue by this worke and thought no man truly learned but who aymed to doe the like These Dialogues he framed some yeares agone and shewed them to seuerall friends of his which finding they gaue content to diuers iudicious persons he intended to enlarge and publish theÌ„ but hindered by some occasions so that he could not finish and perfect them before his death he bequeathed his papers and this charge to a friend to whom he had often communicated his designe Here now you haue them deuided into three parts The first containing and declaring how and what points of controuersies are of necessitie The second shewing that scripture alone is not a fitt iudge nor able of it self to decide controuersies in Religion The third and last demonstrate's an euident and infalible meanes of determining and deciding all questioÌ„s and disputs of faith and Religion which God grant may be to your profit THE APPROBATION HAuing perused and considered by leaue and order from our sacred facultie of Diuinitie a litle treatise entitled The Dialogues of William Rishworth or the iudgment of common sense in the choise of Religion containing 36. sheetes in writing and 24. printed in 12. we doe certifie that there is not anie thing contained therein against Catholike faith or Christian pietie but manie rationall and connaturall proofes and motiues of them both And therefore doe iuge it truly worthie our Approbation and the publicke Paris this 7. of Aprill 1640. E. TYRELL H. HOLDEN The Printer's ignorance of the English tongue hath caused manie errors in the print amongst others these Pag 87. or cor of 101. at cor a 102. the cor these 109. hath cor haue 112. soe be saued cor some may be saued 119. that cor that 's 120. hath cor had 124. waine cor waiue 132. thenth cor tenth 144. and in Gouer c. cor in Gouer c. 149. hat cor that 151. o cor of 152 n cor an 153 th cor that ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ the cor readie 162. v vs 187. Religions order cor Religious 236 acd cor and 254. posseth cor passeth 309 ou cor out 386. althought cor althoug 434. dockrine cor doctrine 450. you cor your 481. such cor such 482. sitle cor litle 501 6 af cor of 527 prrt cor part 529. he cor the â—â—7 ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ cor is not nor c. 545. de cor doe 546. theses cor these 553. pleasont cor pleasant THE FIRST DIALOGVE What pointes of controuersie in matters of Religion are to be Knowne of necessitie This Dialogue containeth 12. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. Whence procedeth and dependeth the necessitie of knowing pointes of Religion 3. That the pointes wherein the Arrians and other antient Heretickes differred from the Catholike church were pointes of necessitie to be knowne and belieued 4. That the beliefe of the Hierarchie establissed by Christ in his church is of necessitie 5. That the administration of Sacraments by the Hierarchie is likewise of necessitie 6. That the resolutions of Generall Councells are to decide controuersies both in pointes of necessitie and of indifferencie 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of necessitie 8. That some things may be of necessitie in a lower degree and in particular the vse of pictures 9. That the honnoring of Saincts their Canonization and the institution of Religious orders are necessarie in this same degree 10. That the Sacraments of order and Matrimonie the Generalitie of Ceremonies and the opinion of miracles are alsoe necessarie 11. That prayer for the dead Extreme vnction and Confession bee likewise necessarie 12. That good institutions are not to bee giuen ouer for smale inconueniencies the abuses are to be mended not the things taken awaie and therefore that the partie Which broke communion is ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ to the other Â§. 1 THE INTRODVCTION NEPHEW Come vncle this is the first day of the new yeare and therefore me thinke's it would be a great offence to imploye it wholy in Pastimes and not giue some hansell to vertue by some serious and good discourse which may engage and serue me for Ã Paterne of well doeing all the yeare after Wherefore though it be late yet I know vncle that you whose well spent age and trauailles haue made you able and fitt to giue light and guydance to my vnsetled yeares can presently giue me such a lesson as that I shall easily better my selfe thereby all the yeare following Vncle. I should be verie vnkind louing cozeÌ„ if I should refuse such a request to you whom the mariage of my nee rest and dearest kinswoman maketh me loue and tender as one who hath myne owne blood and ioye in his care and custodie But as I am glad to see this inclination in you which I hope will strengthen with your age so doth the choise of the time you make being now the hoatest season of the day for gaming make me wonder at your vnusuall temperance Nephew Yesternight was the end of the last yeare and so I made euen with the world nor haue I as yet begun againe and therefore I tooke occasion to withdraw my self when the companie sate downe to playe with intention to bestow somewhat better the litle that 's left of this good day Vncle. Why then cozen I thinke I know my theame you lost all your monies yesternight and now you are wearie with looking on others all this day and therefore I must tell you how damageable and fruitlesse a thing play is especially to yong gentlemen who are coming or newly come to their estats speake plainely sweete cozen is it not so Nephew In deede Vncle for the first part you haue hitt verie right but for the latter I shall entreate you not to touch vpon that string at this time at least vntill the twelft-day bee passed For my father promised me monies when myne were lost and you know how sweete reuenge is so that I shall be in a better dispositioÌ„ to heare you discourse of this subiect after Christmasse when all the companie is gone What you should now saie of this matter would be I feare a bitter and distastfull pill without effect my disease being at this present in it's crisis Anie thing els will

take much better I shall profit more and you will be in lesse danger to loosâ— your labour Vncle. Well cozen seing you are vnwilling of that discourse I will not trouble you therewith vpon condition that after twelftide you will not faille to come to me with preparation to receiue that doome which I shall laye vpon you for your christmasse trespasses In the interim I conceiue nothing more fitting then to informe you of the cheefest and most important affaire that you can haue vpon earth You know you haue beene borne and bred a catholike And you know it is their beliefe and tenent that all wee catholikes are obliged to venter life and fortunes for the profession of our faith Is it not then a great ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ for a catholike gentleman to know full well how to gouerne his temporall estate till his grounds breede his catell sollicite his suits in law and menage all his terrestriall affaires and not knowe Why in such an occasion he ought to hazard yea and if neede be to loose and cast all awaye in the verie sight of his lamenting friends some vpbraiding and some condemning his action as foolish and indiscreete Nephew I pray vncle doe not laye so hard a censure vpoÌ„ me nor thinke me so ignorant of those things with out the knowledge where of I cannot be a catholike And you know wee cannot be admitted to the Sacraments nor can we be esteemed and reputed catholikes vnlesse we belieue that the reward we expect in heauen is farr beyond the pleasures of this world And truly considering what Christ IesÃ»s hath done and suffered for vs it were most base and vnworthie of a gratefull soule to feare to yeild vp life and goods when it is for his honnor and glorie Nor doe I thinke that more violent and efficacious reasons and motiues can be giuen to a noble haâ—t then these I coÌ„fesse if you would search into the metaphysicall grounds and principles of these truths I should perhaps light short of giuing a full accounte but my age and naturall vnstedfastnesse pleade my excuse as yet peraduenture when I grow elder I may proue more bookish and then turne the scripture and fathers and so become able to giue a more sollide accompte of our tenents but as yet this is not to be expected at my hands Vncle. Feare not cozen anie hard measure from me Who loue you so tenderly nether is that the point I entended to deliuer vnto you But sithence the greatter part of your kinred are of a different beliefe from you I desire to enable you to giue them satisfaction why you adhere so strongly to the Catholike partie as to hazard your owne and posteritie's wellfare for the maintenaÌ„ce of your faith and profession Nether am I ignoraÌ„t of your youthfull disposition and therefore Will I abstaine from misticall and sublime metaphysikes and only or at least cheefely make vse of what you know alreadie and what common sense and ordinarie naturall reason is able to performe wherefore to make the first breach I praye tell me cozeÌ„ what answere would you giue to a neere friend Whâ— should blame you for ruining your estate in the defence and maintenance of a position which is against the iudgment of your kinred friends countrie and state Nephew I would laye opeÌ„ vnto him how that our church and our doctrine hath beene euer preached and taught from Christ's time in all countries of the world what abuÌ„dance of holy martyres and learned men wee haue had how all christian nations haue beene conuerted by vs and such like motiues which are able to secure anie Wise man from doubting and must needes conuince the truth to be on our side our Aduersaries being but vpstarts of an hundreth yeares old Which if anie should coÌ„test and denye these things to be true I Would offer to produce men Who should proue and iustifie all I said against anie Doctor he should bring Vncle. Verie well bur if your friend reply that they willingly coÌ„fesse these things haue beene done by the common Ancestours of both Catholikes and ProtestaÌ„ts which were the true church but manie errours by litle and litle haue encroached and crept in amongst theÌ„ which wheÌ„ they were discouered those who now adhere to the RomaÌ„ church would not acknowledge but through obstinacie and desire of soueraigntie brake communion And farther that these diuisions are not truly diuisions in Religion but in opinion so that both sides remaine still parts of the true church though so much traÌ„sported by their first heates and passions as that causelesly they denye communion one to the other And saie's he if you looke in to the pointes of these diuisioÌ„s they are but such as be in the Roman church it selfe betwixt Thomists and Scotists Dominicans and Iesuits who proceede so farr as to charge one an other with Pelagianisme and Caluinisme which neuerthelesse doth not make different churches euen by the Catholikes owne confession And why then should the Protestants be of an other church then the Catholikes are of What would you answere to this Nephew I am not so ignoraÌ„t but I see well enough that all manner of differences ought not to make a breach in churches Wâ— diffâ—ces Reliâ— maâ— schâ— and yet that some may For I see men goe to law and haue quarells and both partyes not only tollerated in the in the common wealth but held good meÌ„bers of it And yet others I see punished for their quarells and contentions And if I doe not mistake the reason of this disparitie is that as long as these quarells are betwixt priuate meÌ„ so long they are suffered and borne withall but if once the common wealth take part with one side giuing iudgmeÌ„t in the cause disputed and thereby interesse it self in the busines if then the other side yeild not it is iustly accounted punishable and an euill member of the commonwealth And in deede thus to disagree vnder a head or rule which can bring the disagreers to agreement is rather to agree then disagree becaus they agree in a thing to wit in a mutually acknowledged head and coÌ„mon rule which is stroÌ„ger theÌ„ the causes of their disagreemeÌ„t and therefore their disageement is only for a time vntill that head and rule haue a conuenient and fitt opportunitie to reduce the disagreers to a full and totall agreement This dayly experience teacheth vs in our owne commonwealth which hauing once giuen a finall senteÌ„ce and determinate iudgment betwixt partye and partie the suite is ended and who should disobey would be punished for contempt So likewise in the church which is a spirituall common wealth such differences as be amongst those who referre them selues to hir iudgment and acknowledge hir decisiue authoritie are and may be tollerated to what termes soeuer the partyes growe amongst them selues But such differences as trench vpon hir authoritie and are betwixt those whereof the one partye will not acknowledge hir defining power nor stand to hir

to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke Â§. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and

condemne themselues Why Catholikes censure Protestants so hardly But we Catholikes censure Protestants first becaus they refuse that which we hold to be the true rule of faith to witt the churche's authoritie or tradition And sithence the rule of faith runne's through the whole course of our beliefe aÌ„d is the tennor and principle vpon which we hold euerie particular article t' is euident that who doth not accepte of this right and true rule of attaining to the knowledge of Christian faith cannot belieue aright nor haue true faith but by chance and therefore will misse it for the most part Secondly this rule of ours tell 's vs that Protestant's negatiue positions are against the generall good of the multitude of Christians that is against charitie and God's law hindering them from diuers important and necessarie meanes conducing to saluation Lastly it were meere folly to leaue possession vpon a slight argument For as in equalitie the better proofe should carrie the cause the equall deuide it so where there is possession on the one side there nothing but such conuiction as the nature of the cause doth beare ought to waine possession otherwise no human possession would be stable and constant Now Catholikes are as certaine of these two pointes as that they liue and breath to witt that they haue possession And that there 's no euident conuiction hitherto passed and shewed against them Wherefore I see not why a Protestant should be offended that the Catholikes censure all their Aduersaries in generall so seuerely sithence t' is manifest that if they should not doe so they would not only betraye their owne principles but also denye their breetheren that fraternall rebuke and admonition which the law of God and good neighbourhood require's at the hands of men so persuaded as these grounds force and oblige vs to be Nephew Surely then this is the reason why the church now and then chasticeth such subiects as rebell in beliefe against hir which the Protestants so exclame at Vncle. T' is so in deede and being no other church can haue this principle against vs if at anie time they persecute vs for our faith and beliefe they must needes doe it more out of passion and reuenge then out of anie rationall loue and knowing zeale to God and Religion And now cozen I hope you conceiue the extreme necessitie and maine importance of these pointes which we haue talked of being such as that the church of God cannot subsiste without them and essentiall to Christ's coming to witt to establish some to haue the charge and care of teaching and gouerning his church And that these teachers and Gouernors haue great credit and authoritie euen supernaturall and more then human And that their iudgment in matters of beliefe and Religion is to stand good nor may be subiected to the weake and wauering iudgmeÌ„t of the laietie that is of men ignorant in the principles of their science and discipline And lastly that being thus vnited they haue the true and right rule of knowing Christ's law and those things which are to be belieued and practized All which you see are of that nature that the verie essence of a Christian church and communitie cannot subsiste and continue without anie of them all And without such a church the Generalitie of mankinde cannot be maintained in charitie nor without charitie arriue to eternall Happinesse for which both charitie and all these other pointes are absolutly necessarie This hath beene the chaine of our discourse hitherto if you haue well vnderstood and conceiued my intention Which likewise you see I haue done by the light of common sense and reason according to my promis And sithence you would haue me to goe this waye and nether flye vp to sublime metaphysickes nor drowne your memorie with tedious allegations of authors we will still continue in the same path insisting in the principles of nature and shewing that diuers pointes of our faith and practise which the Protestants deney are euen by their conformitie to naturall reason it self aÌ„d by their owne proper force and efficacitie of causing and producing good and vertuous effects in a Christian coÌ„munitie and thereby contributing to saluation are I saie of no smale consequence and importance First therefore tell me whether you thinke there be anie other necessitie in respect of the pointes controuerted betwixt vs and the Protestants then this absolute and maine one which we haue alreadie talked of I meane whether there be not an other necessitie which though not altogether so great in it self and of it's owne nature yet such an one as is sufficient to make a pointe of importance and of such importance as that to reiecte it would be a lawfull and iust cause to refuse and denye communion to the refractarie and obstinate opposers thereof And lett vs put the question thus Â§. 8 Whether some pointes may not be of necessitie in a lower degree as in particular the vse of pictures or Images NEphew I told you before how I thought necessitie might be distinguished into an absolute necessitie and into a necessitie of a meanes for abtaining the thing we desire with greater ease and coÌ„ueniencie and you liked well of it But me thinke's it were a hard case to depriue anie man of that meanes and qualitie without which he cannot absolutly attaine to his end that others may come to their ends with greater ease and securitie And therefore I should thinke that no other necessitie but an absolute one were sufficient to deserue excommunication which I take to be a depriuing of a partie from that without which he cannot obtaine eternall Blisse Vncle. Why cozen lett vs suppose that in a communitie of one hundreth thousand nyntie thousand would neuer attaine to Blisse though absolutly they could vnlesse the waye were made easie doe you thinke it were fitt or tollerable in anie one or in a douzen to take awaie the meanes whereby the waye were facilitated to the rest Nay suppose ten thousand of the hundreth thousand would arriue to happinesse with great paines and labours were it not better in the Gouernor's eye who ought to be a common father to them all to lett the thenth part perish then all the other nine Nephew I confesse I see myne ouersight for truly the church is bound in such a case to proceede with rigor And the partie which will not condescende to helpe the frailtie of their breetheren doth by this very fact deserue to loose the protection of charitie which it willfully abandon's And in effect such a partie hath alreadie putt it selfe out of the secret communitie of God's church and the Gouernor is only to performe it in externall apparence Vncle. Add to this cozen that such a partie doth willfully stand out in this manner vpon pride and faction to iustifie their opinion And that they trench vpon the GouermeÌ„t ordained by Iesus Christ them selues not being caled therevnto proudly setting themselues in the seate of iudgment to

things as put men in feare of yeilding to the contrarie which is a kinde of strengthening of man's weaknesse against these coÌ„trarieties Secondly by diminishing and aswaging the force and violence of these contrarieties ether in them selues or in their action In the first manner doe contribute all kinde of Ceremonies and particularly those which are vsed in the instalements and Beginnings of offices and charges as the Sacraments of Order and Matrimonie And likewise the opinion of miracles For Ceremonies their nature in generall is to put in men's heads the conceite of a high and sublime thing whereby we proceede with greater caution and warinesse in the busines which we haue in hand And for miracles the beliefe and opinion of them once well grounded as it ought to be make's the people extremely apprehensiue of the presence of Almightie God and of his immediate gouerment of human affaires So that as to be ouer credulous of miracles is the signe of a light and imprudent man for according to reason the stranger the thing is the greater ought to be the proofe which should make vs belieue it so likewise not to thinke that some miracles in common haue beene and are now done in the Catholike church were to contradict the vniuersall and constant opinion of all good Christians and deserue's to be suspected of not belieuing the particular prouidence of Allmightie God which is the maine string where vpon all Christianitie and supernaturall Religion haÌ„geth and which all Maisters of pietie and deuotion haue euer souht to grounde stroÌ„gly in the harts and soules of men Nephew But I pray vncle how will this be true in Matrimonie for that concerne's me he vse whereof consist's in such a materiall and sensuall pleasure I haue often reflected why the Catholike church which make's so great esteeme of virginitie should place mariage amoÌ„gst the Sacraments and make such great Ceremonies in the administration of it Vncle. You speake like a youngster And I would to God your conceite and thought were not so deepely rooted in the harts of manie young men like your selfe The Apostle tell 's you that the right and lawfull vse of the bed is honorable Why t' is fitt that Matrimonie should be a SacrameÌ„t Heb 13. 1. Tim. 2. and that woemen are to be saued by ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ that is bringing forth of Children God Almightie hath bestowed this procreation of children vpon his seruants as a cheefe temporall Blessing so we see in Abraham and in the good woman that entertained Elizeus and suerly it was the first Blessing that God bestowed vpon his creatures If you considere for what end God sanctifie's anie action you shall finde t' is only for man's vse And then reflect vpon the goods which follow the lawfull vse of this materiall action betwixt man and wife and you will not wonder that God hath placed a Sacrament in matrimonie I doe not doubt but the light of reason tell 's you that in respect of good oeconomie a man's hauing but one wife and his perpetuall cohabitation with hir is the best manner of secular liuing that can be both for temporalities sake and for hauing a quiet and contented life Which supposed Mariage must needes be a matter of great consideration For ether a man must liue without a woman which kinde of life is but for few or with this womaÌ„ after he hath once taken hir And therefore t' is of great importance that this manner of life of it's owne nature be conuenient and gratfull Besides you know a man take's a great deale of naturall content in his wife generally speaking which some times drawe's him to strang inconueniences vnlesse his passions and affections be well moderated and setled for you know hee take's hir for his best friend his best seruant and his dearest partner in all his busineses supposing she be wise and prudent and consequently euer complying in reason with hir husband's humour Whereby you see that the making of a Marriage and the vsage of it when t' is made is the pinne whereon doth hang the cheefe content and sweetnesse of a maried man's life the good of his posteritie the maine successe and prosperitie of his temporall estate or fortunes And aboue all the breeding of his children and the instilling of pietie and vertue into their tender harts which may grow with their age and carie them to felicitie Iudge now cosen whether it was not conuenieÌ„t and fitting that in the law of grace this Action should be eleuated and rancked in the highest degree and order of those actions which God hath sanctified for the vse of man And ought we not to commende and preferre the wisdomes of our forefathers before all other nations for making so great esteeme of it and celebrating it with such great ceremonies Nephew Truly I am to thanke you for this good lesson because it may be of speciall vse for my selfe And I could wish it were giuen to all men before they marrie For my selfe I thanke God I am so well sped that I neede not wish to haue learned it sooner But I pray vncle lett me know the other part of your diuision that is which be those things you said were necessarie to breake the force of coÌ„trarieties and temptations against vertue and which might comfort and strengtheÌ„ men in this distresse I doe imagine that you ayme at some things which you will hardly proue As for Example doe you thinke that for this end Â§. 11 Praying for the dead Extreme vnction and Confession are necessarie VNCLE Setting a side the temptations of sensuall pleasure which we suppose to be moderated by mariage there remaine's feare and grieefe Feare is cheefely of death and iudgment following Griefe is of losse which to rationall men is aboue all other things of friends of whom the cheefest is Allmightie God who is lost by sinne the next is of temporall friends who are principally lost by their death This last is taken awaie by the beliefe of their suruiuing and that once we shall enioye them againe Whence proceede's the desire of continuing amitie and communication with them HoW prayers for the dead doe appease the griefe of the liuing which being only to be had by the mediation of Almightie God it cannot be performed but by praying for them if we thinke they stand in neede And so a great part of this griefe is taken awaie amongst Catholikes by the diuersion of care to gett prayeres said for them and an other part turned to Almightie God by hoping good for them at his hands Whereas others giue their friends ouer in death with a farewell frost or else are plunged in vncurable sorrow for an vncurable losse for the beliefe of enioying them againe when there is no communication in the interim is but cold comfort and sinke's not deepely as things farre from vs doe generally litle moue vs. The feare of death is much moderated by the Sacrament of Extreme vnction

coÌ„panie of learned and indifferent men haue doubted of yea vse this for a maxime that such pointes must of necessitie be doubted of as being not with in the reach of euident conuiction Let but I saie these men come to write against Catholikes and you shall haue them pretende whole listes of demonstrations and whole pages will not suffice to recken vp the absurdities which they imagine doe follow out of some one Catholike pointe so necessarie it is that these men contradict them selues who contradict the truth of Christ and his church Nephew Why the Protestants ought to returne to the church of Rome Your argument me thinke's is good against the first beginners of the breach from the Catholike church but will not suffice against meÌ„ that nowe liue who seeme to be a framed and setled church and haue receiued this doctrine from their fathers For we see that possession though at the first vnlawfully gotten doth in time preuaille and quarells cease euen where Princes are pretenders If the welch men should now pretende to haue beene vnjustly put out of England by the Saxons The Romans out of France by the french The Greekes out of Italie by the Goths who would thinke their quarells iust So likewise why should the Protestants though their time be not so long nor their possession so quiet rather yeild to the church of Rome then the church of Rome to them or to the church of England for example vnlesse the church of Rome can demonstrate hir positioÌ„s against the ProtestaÌ„ts which I haue not heard anie of our learned meÌ„ saie she caÌ„ Vncle. Although it be both reasonable in all liklyhood and peraduenture may be coÌ„uinced that who first parted and made the diuision ought in law of good gouerment to returne And although I could likewise pretende that the church of England compared to that church which liueth in communitie with the church of Rome is but a smale part and therefore bound to yeild to the greater for to saie that the ProtestaÌ„ts of England liue in communitie with all other churches but the Roman is manifestly false since all other churches will Anathematize diuers of their tenets and they also the tenets of other churches nor is there anie rule of vnitie and coÌ„munion amongst them Although I saie I could vrge these and other reasons to this effect yet I will only propose you two The Catholike church cannot come to the Protestants The former shall plainely shew that the Catholike church caÌ„not yeild vnto Protestants without essentially ruining hir self and therefore no possible vnion betwixt the churches vnlesse the Protestants will bend For if the Catholike church doth essentially subsiste and mantaine hir selfe vpon this principle and grounde that she hath receiued hir doctrine froÌ„ Iesus Christ by word of mouth and succession from hand to hand which cannot faile put the case she yeilde's to the church of EnglaÌ„d in anie pointe which she holdeth vpoÌ„ this principle is it not euident that she must of necessitie forgoe hir hold and for sake hir only principle where vpon is built all hir faith and beliefe is it not manifest that she may as well forsake all as anie one pointe which she holdeth vpoÌ„ this tennor and motiue sure it is But the Protestants holding their doctrine and positions vpon no such tye but only vpon their owne at most probable interpretation of the scripture which they may change vpon better consideration are vpon farr easier termes to yeild and that without preiudice to their Religion or iudgment Because tenets only holdeÌ„ vpon probabilitie may be changed vpon anie good occasion or new knowne motiue without disparregment to the Authour And certainely what church soeuer doth not thinke hir selfe vnerrable in anie pointe what she holdeth may be false and therefore it were temeritie for such a church to hold anie pointe certainely true And if she hold not anie pointe certainely true why should not the verie reasons of state and interest seeke to haue them changed and setled secure and infalible sitheÌ„ce humane nature is euer inclined to belieue what 's for hir owne profit The second reason doth proue that the Protestant is bound in nature and by the light of reason to yeild to the Catholike communion For if nature teach vs that a Protestant's practize ought not to contradict his principles and iudgment of his reason And that the necessitie and force of Experience doth conuince most euideÌ„tly that there is no Gouerment in a church without prescribing of some tenets and forbidding of others restraining or punishing if neede be such as wil not complie with those prescribed CanoÌ„s or articles And that t' is likewise euident that this is contrarie to the libertie of opinion which the ProtestaÌ„t putte's for his first and cheefe maxime to approue his separation froÌ„ the Roman church will it not follow with out contradiction that ether the Protestants must breake with reason and the nature of man in holding libertie in their iudgments and vnderstandings and obliging to obedience in their will and practize Or els they must close with the Catholike church in their iudgments and professe the inerrabilitie of the church at least so farr as obligeth hir subiects not to withstand or oppose but to submitte and obey hir Canons and commaÌ„des And for your exaÌ„ples of politicke states which by possessioÌ„ and prescription haue at length obtained right you must remember that all their beginnings and groundes are vpon humane nature and consent of men and therefore by the same law by which they were made they may be likewise altered But the church of God was made by Christ and his Ministers and therefore reasoÌ„ tell 's vs that hir institution is to be inuiolably coÌ„serued nor ought or can anie prescription of time preuaile against hir Wherefore sitheÌ„ce that church which the Protestants parted from held an holdeth still that the church of God nether is nor can be but one in all ages and places which position she professeth to haue teceiued in the same manner and vpoÌ„ the same grounde as she hath receiued the rest of hir doctrine they Protestants must of necessitie first shew that they are the true church of Christ before they can pleade possessioÌ„ or prescription For if there can be but one church no prescription can make them that one sithence at their verie begining and euer since an other both was and is in more quiet possession then they and pleade's the same title more strongly Nephew Why then vncle I see there remaineth no other question but whether the Protestants can conuince their positions or noe Which I belieue would be a hard taske Wherefore vncle I thaÌ„ke you hartily for this good lesson It growe's late I feare I shall hold you vp to long t' is time for you to take your reste Vncle. T' is true nephew they ought in deede to conuince and demonstrate their tenents and I know of no other waie they haue to doe

hee needeth not produce the text for it The new Testament is Historicall Epistolar The diuision of the bookes ef the new Testament or Misticall which by their verie names and natures exclude all such exactnesse as of necessitie is required to a iudging law they being all written vpoÌ„ speciall occasions and for particular ends manie things repeated manie things left out in one which are found in an other scarsely anie one knowing of an others writings Those things which are in the Historie and in the Epistles are expressed as was fitting for the vnderstanding of them to whoÌ„ they were written or to whom the recited speech was made circumstances farr different to what is conuenient and accoÌ„modated to our vnderstandings now And as an able maÌ„ saith of historie that because it must needes leane and rely vpon all circumstances euen of smale moment he that should gouerne him selfe by it must of necessitie be misled so in our case the want of knowing circumstances and not comprehending the true meaning of what was written in a particular occasion must of necessitie make vs apt and subiect to take our ayme and rule amisse The misticall booke which we call the Apocalips being a pure Allegorie is the most vnfitting of all This in my iudgment is so euident that if anie man of common sense would but reflect and really considere what is requisite to determine a litigious controuersie betwixt two men passionate of their owne opinions he would neuer saie that scripture is a booke ether intended by Allmightie God or anie waie fit for such a pourpose Besides a prudent and experienced man will tell you that who looketh in to the various dispositions of men's vnderstandings but especially of men's wills and seeth the varietie and miltiplicitie of men's interests and passions Which for the most part are publickly noted in euerie maÌ„ or at least so inwardly hidden and secretly couered that some times euen he who would and doth sweare and protest him self free from all such pre-occupations is neuerthelesse the most dangerously intangled that such an one I saie will neuer thinke to finde two in two thousand who left to their owne libertie will agree in the interpretatioÌ„ of anie law how plane soeuer where both are oppositly interressed But if wee put this law to be supernatural and Deuine full of misticall and sublime commandes wherevnto nature hath not the least inckling whereby to raise hir self to the knowledge thereof but must of necessitie wholy and precisely rely vpon authoritie and captiuate hir vnderstanding in obsequium fidei and this to the most obscure and darke points and articles that can be imagined shall wee saie that in this case euerie one is to gather this law and come to the knowledge of it as well as he can out of the scripture alone so full of infinite ambiguitie as you haue seene Were it not first to be proued that scripture was made and intended for this end which how possible it is to performe let anie indifferent maÌ„ iudge Whereas to remitte the iudgment of all quarells disputes and controuersies of ReligioÌ„ vnto liuing men is more efficacious more sutable to nature and discretion and in a word conformable to the practize of our forefathers and to the principles of common sense and reason Nephew I must confesse I shall neuer thinke scripture was giuen for a iudge of controuersies For to make so large a booke and to mingle in it so manie things which ether appertaine not at all to the substance of our beliefe or be verie remotely coÌ„nexed vnto it And then to leaue it to our ghessing what may be the meaning of the words doth plainely argue some other intention in the writer then to set downe a standing and authenticall text to decide quarells And although I heare the Protestants saie that a plaine passage cleareth an obscure so may it be said that an obscure passage darkeneth a cleere so that 's all one Wherefore I long to know for what vse the scripture was made Vncle. Haue yet a litle patience cozen Diuers substantiall points haue beene opposed by antient Heretickes and make a reflexion vpon some cheefe pointes which haue beene coÌ„trouerted in the church of God As by the Arrians how a spirituall aÌ„d indiuisible esseÌ„ce such as God is coulde haue a natural sonne By the Trinitarians and Sabellians how the same indiuisible thing could bee three persons By the Nestorians and Eutychians how one person could subsiste in two natures By the Pelagians how God's foreknowledge and predestinatioÌ„ could stand with merits and freewill By the Iconoclasts how the adoration of Images tended and ended in the Archetype By the Berangarians how a naturall bodie can haue corporall presence otherwise then by it's quantitie By our Wicklefists how all things be not gouerned by a fatall necessitie And all these renewed by the libertie and confusion of our last ages Considere the subtilitie of these questions how they are aboue nature and aboue our comprehensioÌ„ how the truths of these disputes are like the passage betwixt Scylla and Charybdis limited betwixt two errours so narrowly as that when they are spoken of at large and not dogmatically specially before they be examined and before the speaker by mistrust of opposition is made warie it is almost impossible the speaker should be so iust and straight in his language as not to giue occasion to one who comes after him to pretende his fauour for the one or the other errour Considere farther that wrangling witts such as for the most part they are who first beginne a new factioÌ„ in the church haue this property that they reduce their questions by litle and litle to logicall and abstracted notioÌ„s and force the Catholikes to follow them if they will not desert their antient truths so that after a while one knoweth not where the controuersie lyeth For example Simon Magus and the first authours of our last Breaches preached that faith did so iustifie as that good workes were not necessarie now their followers drawe the question to this whether faith or charitie be the forme of iustification which is all most pure Logicke Now if an Arrian come and tell you that the scripture saith Pater maior me est and therefore that Christ Iesus was not truly God nor consubstantiall to his father And the like maie be said of the rest of these heresies and euen of all the most substantiall and fundamentall points of Christian faith The Catholike maintaine's the coÌ„trarie now I saie is it possible that anie rationall man should thinke that these and the like questions can be diffinitiuely resolued by a criticall libratioÌ„ of dead and vncertaine words full of equiuocall ambiguitie their sense and meaning lying in the brest and minde of him who is not to be found but deceassed manie ages agone And if they cannot as it is more then euident they cannot shall wee thinke that Christ Iesus hath left and established no meanes

decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse Â§. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you

euen now before it passe without controule Nephew Truly sir me thinke's you speake with reason and common sense Yet this authoritie being so great I see not Why it may not of it selfe and by it's instruments worke such an effect as that learned men vpon whose number I am to rely may not become partially affected in the iudgment of Religion and consequently the greater number be more corrupted then the lesser and so the opinion of three were to be preferred before the opinion of the seueÌ„teene Nay in my iudgment experience tell 's vs that not euerie tenth person amongst learned Catholikes doe know the true value and force of our Aduersaries arguments but with a preoccupated dispositioÌ„ vndervalue them when perhapps they cannot giue a full and satisfactorie answere vnto them And how should it be otherwise sithence from our childhood we are taught to rely vpon the church for matters of Religion and to reiect and hate anie maÌ„ who should seeke to make a contrarie impression in vs. This being plaÌ„ted in vs in our tender age and growing with nature cannot choose but make a vehement preoccupation in vs wheÌ„ we come to be able to iudge of controuersies in Religion Nor is it to the pourpose whether it be fit that we haue such an impression or no for I oppose not the thing but the argument which vrge's for the greater number of learned men Vncle. And haue you not marked the like amongst ProtestaÌ„ts aÌ„d much more amoÌ„gst Puritants And doe you not finde that those who slight Catholike arguments are no lesse preoccupated then the Catholikes you speake of Nay if you marke it they greatest contemners of their Aduersarie's argumeÌ„ts be they Catholikes or Protestants are commonly the most zealous or rather the most ignorant of the zealous So that in deede the true cause of this partialitie is ignorance and not anie prohibition which contrariwise is a great prouoker to make men doubt of their Religion For euer since our Grand mother Eue harkened to the first why did God all precepts whose reason we vnderstand not haue beene suspicious vnto vs. Tell me then I pray if you were in a shipp where there were a Pilote and his mate and some Captane who had neuer beene at sea before and in a controuersie about their iournay they fall to variance The Pilote and his Mate saying this is the waie the Captane by reports or guesses of his owne saie's that 's not the waie And therevpon the CoÌ„panie in the shipp take's parts whether side in this case would you iudge to be partiall Nephew T' is cleere that those who ioyne with the Captane are partiall for where the one side hath skill the other none t' is euident that if the question be of skill we ought adhere to the skilfull This I saie is euideÌ„t if there be no particular circumstaÌ„ce or speciall reason to the contrarie As in our case if the Pilote had some interest to carrie his shipp out of the waie then it were an other matter but staÌ„ding precisely in the termes of your case t' is cleere oÌ„ which side the partialitie is for the Pilote hauing skill the captaine none the Pilot's aduise were to be preferred in common sense and to side with him were wisdome Vncle. Why then who adhere's to vnskillfull iudgers in matters of Religion are partiall and who adhere's to experts in those matters are wise and rationall Wherefore if the seuenteene adhere to the Mistrisse and teacher of ReligioÌ„ and the three fly from hir doth not these by this verie act make them selues partiall and those impartiall You must first know whether side goes the right waie before you can suppose ether side to be partiall and consequently the number will still preuaille as long as t' is in doubt whether side is partiall And if one side adhere to that part which was in prepossession the other plead against possession you are bound by the law of nature by the institution of all coÌ„munities and by commoÌ„ sense to iudge the pleaders against possession to be partiall vntill they haue proued their motioÌ„ so reasonable as wil ouer balaÌ„ce the great authoritie of possession which is against them Farther if you considere that Christian Religion is supernaturall that is such an one as cannot be learned but froÌ„ Almightie God to wit from the Apostles or from them whoÌ„ the Apostles or their Disciples haue taught you will see that there is no disputing about Religion but only to aske what hath beene taught vs which none can tell vs but those whose life and professioÌ„ it is to teach vs that doctrine which them selues first learned to wit the Bishopps and Pastors of the church So that who doubt's of what these meÌ„ haue taught and doe teach vs must needes be ignorant of the meanes and waie of knowing Christian doctrine and passionately refuse the true aÌ„d certaine rule thereof Nephew I see myne errour and it was the same as if one should condemne a man of partialitie who keepe 's possession of his owne because he yeild's not vp the state whereof he is possessed before iudgmeÌ„t be giueÌ„ against him whereas contrariwise in the Ciuill law which I once studied a litle if one be put out of quiet possession his Aduersarie may not pleade vntill he be put in againe And sure of all cases the fowlest is to doubt in matters of Religion before one hath reason for where authoritie is plainely on the one side there none caÌ„ doubt without wronging that Authoritie vnlesse he haue a reason which doth ouer ballance it And so I am satisfied in this pointe Vncle. Take this with you nephew that generally no coÌ„trouersies of Religion fall out without some motiues of interest on both sides and so both sides may be suspected of partialitie but cheefely that which beginne's the change Wherefore suppose men were forbiddeÌ„ to doubt that would be of litle force if once they sawe their commanders were interessed vnlesse they sawe withall that they could not mende them selues Besides in our schooles all things are caled in question which would not be suffered if it endaÌ„gered the churche's beliefe Lastly being t' is great schollers that gouerne men's iudgments if they did finde by their learning anie other sure ground of Religion then standing to the churche's authoritie and iudgment they would esteeme as much of hir Commandes and Sampson did of the Philistins shutting their gates vpon him And so wee see by experience that all truly learned aÌ„d vnpassionat meÌ„ on our side besides the motife of the churche's authoritie adhere vpon pure reason to the Catholike tenets and will protest vpon all that 's holy that they would be of the same ReligioÌ„ though there were no commande finding it most conformable to reason and to the grounds of Christianitie Nephew The truth is I know not how to answere your discourse yet perhapps a Protestant would saie that all 's but probabilitie and likelihood and therefore to hazard a

haue the same effect yea nature it self and it's Author would be ouercome if such long violence could so oppresse it as to extinguish it It being nature's cheefe flower and greatest treasure planted by the expresse handy worke of the omnipotent and wise framer thereof Nephew Your discourse seemee's good for I see that meÌ„ who in a case of great importance will not be content with what is proportionall to their capacitie but seeke a certitude so great as them selues are not capable to iudge of being not beaten to thoses sciences in which such certaintie is vsuall those men I saie must needes come short of what they desire if truly they doe desire it for I belieue the affectioÌ„ of wealth pleasure or some fore-made iudgment doth carie them against the simple and plaine directioÌ„ of free reason How soeuer vncle seeing it was so easie for the church to haue beene conserued entire in faith me thinke's it should not be hard to shew in effect and in particular from age to age that it hath beene conserued Vncle. If we could proue that Bishops ether in Generall or Nationall Councells had once in two or three hundreth yeares taken care that no corruptioÌ„s should be introduced this might be effected but that depende's vpon bookes ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ and historie which you and wil not now medle withall Nephew I belieue those histories are not so doubtfull but that generally Protestants doe aÌ„d will acknowledge theÌ„ And by my pore skill I know that there neuer passed 300. yeares since Christ's time without a Councell and without condemning some hereticke so that t' is cleere the church hath had sufficieÌ„t care in this kinde Yet because I haue heard your self complaine of the slouth of men who seeke not into the grounds of scieÌ„ces and often saie that fair more theÌ„ is might be knowne if the principles were rightly laide for it and the waie trodden nay that all God's workes hang so together by connection of causes and effects as that there 's no effect whose cause by diligence might not be found I must therefore intreate you to condescende a litle euen to the hardnesse of those men's harts who require more in this subiect then in anie other and seeke the cause why the church and faith of Christ cannot faille For sitheÌ„ce we haue found by experieÌ„ce these 1600. yeares that it hath not so failed as that it hath not euer beene generally and vniuersally visible and hath both dured and florished thus long surely it hath some forcible cause and in deede such an one as can neuer faile but will still worke the same effect And this were to shew That noe great errour could creepe into the church of God VNcle Cosen you laie toâ—â— what aske vpon me Who knowe's why the world hath dured thus long Or why mankinde was not extinct manie yeares agoe And must I tell you why God's church hath not nor cannot faile I am ashamed to answere euerie licentious braine the negatiues of a wittie naturalist may pose the most learned Christian vpon earth Yet to content you I will endeauour aboue my strength but you must ease me a litle and answere me to what your self see 's euident First you know that the church being the Congregation of the faithfull cannot faile but by the losse of faith How faith is lost And faith may be lost two waies by ignorance or by errour For so we see a particular man who once had faith if he come to loose it t' is ether by negligence and not conning it and so forgette's it or else ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ disswaded from it and induced to belieue some differrent doctrine So likewise to a multitude of men the one or the other must needes happeÌ„ or else they cannot be depriued of the faith which they once had And because pure ignorance is a meere negatiue or not knowing the first question I will aske you is Whether you thinke a people once instructed in anie Religion can so forget it as that they fall not into some other Religion â—â— but liue quite without anie Religion at all Nephew Truly I thinke it impossible both because I neuer heard of anie nation that had no Religion at all no not the Caniballs as also because I haue heard that absurde Religions haue continued from father to sonne for manie generations together and neuer left vntill an other Religion was brought in and then too with much adoe the people being loth to be drawne from their former beliefe Yet if one should confidently saie the contrarie why all people haue some Religion I doe not know how to conuince him Vncle. You must looke into the causes which make men Religious aÌ„d if you finde theÌ„ to be vniuersall and perpetuall you may be sure that all sortes of Peoples haue some Religion in theÌ„ though more or lesse according as these causes are more or lesse in force amongst them But lett vs knowe can you tell me what is Religion in generall as it is commone to both true and false Nephew I imagine Religion to be a conceite or persuasion of the people concerning one or more what is ReligioÌ„ in generall excellent natures which gouerne humane life giuing vs those goods which of our selues we cannot attaine vnto aÌ„d inflicting vpoÌ„ vs those paines whereof we doe not knowe the causes And this persuasion reacheth also to the manner and forme of pleasing this or these Gouernors and commanders Whereby to obtaine goods and eschew euills And the reason why I make this conceite of Religion is because I see these things are in all sorts of Religion and all authours which write of the Religion of what nation soeuer touch cheefely these pointes Vncle. Your remarque is good Which be the causes of ReligioÌ„ and Why it cannot perish and if you looke into your definition you shall finde the causes of Religion You saie Religion is a conceite of the Gouernors of man's life in giftes and punishments whose causes we doe not knowe Then you see Religion must needes be a faith for when we doe not know things we cannot make anie conceite of theÌ„ but by belieuing and trusting others whom we thinke know the things that we know not and therefore Religion in generall is taken vpon trust Farther you saie that ReligioÌ„ is a methode of pleasing those Gouernors whereby to get goods and eschewe euills so that the desire of goods and the feare of euills are the authors and causes of Religion we haue then hopes and feares for the will ignorance and a conceite of an other man's knowledge for the vnderstanding which be the parents of Religion Now thinke you cosen can these causes be defectiue and fayling in anie age Nephew Surely they cannot For it were no generation of men but beasts that were so doÌ„ltish and sottish as to see so manie goods and harmes which happen to all men wee know not whence and thinke that there were no cause thereof And therefore it is the

most easie and most naturall conceite that man can haue to conceiue that some thing is the cause of these goods and hurtes Now man's conuersation being cheefely with one an other men naturally apprehende all things to be donne by some vnderstanding thing as they see their owne actions are So that if there were a coÌ„pagnie of men sprung out of the earth like Cadmus his people or raised out of emitts like the Myrmidons yet would they if they were truly men within a litle while frame them selues some Religion according as by chance or some one's appreheÌ„sion or phaÌ„sie they should conceite their goods and euills to proceede from some visible or inuisible thing Wherefore I admire not that some people adored the sunne some the starrs others some rare men from whom they had receiued in their life time great benefits imagining that euen after death they were power full and beneficiall And surely it is much more impossible that a people which once hath had some Religion should quitte forget it and come to haue none at all for these causes will be euer knocking at their harts putting them in minde and driuing them into the coÌ„ceite of some God or Gouernor if therefore the effects of perpetuall causes must be euerlasting these causes of Religion to wit effects whose causes are hidden and the good and euill which come vnto vs by them being neuer awanting t' is impossible that Religion should euer cease Vncle. And thinke you not cosen that these same causes doe as well moue those who are setled in a faith or Religion to continue without changing their once receiued beliefe as well I saie as they doe keepe them from forgetting that Religion which they are once possessed of Nephew I confesse it seeme's euident to me that the change of Religion can not come by pure negligence and sleepinesse no more then the losse of it being these warnings of nature which force vs to Religion doe also continually call vpon vs to keepe our once practized faith and credulitie vnlesse there be greater causes to countermande it which I doe not see but may be easily found some times Vncle. Peraduenture not so easily as you imagine for an Errour is a persuasion of the minde And nothing can worke vpon our vnderstanding but it self and our will who soeuer therefore will make such a persuasioÌ„ must worke vpon one of these two The will you know is moued and weilded by hopes and feares the vnderstanding by reason and authoritie How error in bred in man Whence arise three waies by which such an opinion may creepe into meÌ„'s mindes 1. by bringing more reason for it theÌ„ caÌ„ be brougth on the contrarie side 2. by the authoritie of some so great as that their verdicts are held beyond examining and 3. by the power of some whose hands are full of paines and pleasures and who can thereby moue the will which being moued can make the vnderstanding belieue what she desire's Doe you know anie other meanes Nephew Not I vncle for I see that if I should bring anie other you would reduce it to some of these three But me thinke's such an opinioÌ„ might steale vpon the church at vnawares some obscure man broaching it at the first and others accepting of it by a kinde of negligeÌ„ce and indifferencie to anie opinion or by too much credulitie not distinguishing right from wroÌ„g though I see this touche's some what vpon authoritie and so will be reduced to that meÌ„ber of your diuision Vncle. It importe's not to what member it be reduced so there be no fourth waie But I though you had learned sufficiently alreadie to exclude this for what make's more notice to be taken of anie thing then that which changeth some publicke and vniuersall practize Looke but if anie one goe through the streete's in some strang and new fashioned apparell how all staire and gaze vpon him the verie boys leaue their playe to follow him and looke at him And therefore to saie such an Innouation can be brought in without being taken notice of is as much as to saie the cause of admiration or taking notice can be set before our eyes without working it's effect Which is to saie that fire and tow should lye together without burning or a stone hang at libertie in the aire without falling downe these be impossibilities in nature and are in the racke of those things against which nature folliciteth by hiâ— continuall causes of hopes and feares which made you confesse but now that negligence was not a sufficient cause to produce the change of Religion Wherefore let vs see if by anie of these three waies which I haue proposed the change of Religion can happen Nephew Nay sir I will doe you the fauour to exclude one of them to wit the waie of persuasion or by alledging more reason against the true Religion then can be brought for it for seing truths beare witnesse to one another and that the Religion we speake of is supposed to be true t' is impossible that more reason should be brought against it then for it Nor is the greatnesse of anie man's wit who should stand to maintaine the error to be feared for this error being to passe through a great part of the world t' is not credible that one man should so farr surpasse in wit the rest of the world as to put them all from their staÌ„ding without contradictioÌ„ Or that in so much time as is necessarie for the spreading of such an error into the maine of the church no man should haue wit enough if not to bring more potent argumeÌ„ts for the truth atleast to finde out the weakenesse and fallacie of those which are brought against it which would be sufficient to hinder the progresse of such an error for who is in possession of an opinion must haue an insoluable reasoÌ„ to put him out of it if he be wise and constant Much more those who ground their tenets vpon receiuing them from their forefathers and hould all reason insufficieÌ„t to proue their faith because of it's supernaturalitie and therefore ought more to harken to what was deliuered theÌ„ to anie reason which may seeme to vrge the change of what is knowne to be deliuered Thus much I confesse is cleere but why the authoritie of some one or more whose words are aboue examine or the power of some who hould's the balance of good and badd of paines and pleasures may not worke an error into the church that I doe not vnderstand Vncle. You haue drawne the question from an vniuersall to a particular for we spoke of a change betwixt two Religions in common and you speake of a change from a true one to a false one Yet this being sufficient for our intent I will add that if you had that conceite of the true Religion which much thought hath bredd in me to wit that t' is the most high wise rationnall conformable to man's nature to gouerment to all

that how soeuer the common people doe not distinguish what is of Tradition and what is but of some learned men's opinioÌ„s neuerthelesse those whom we call Deuines if truly they be such as the name require's may aÌ„d doe distinguish positions of such different natures For Christian doctrine is not a bundle of loose positions as those who negligently looke on it may thinke but a true discipline hanging together by consequences and order tending to one end And of this doctrine and discipline some parts be such as cannot be knowne but by immediate reuelation others such as no sensible man can doubt of if he beleeue the former And learned meÌ„ know that of both these two the one is expresly deliuered by tradition the other is as firme as if it were so deliuered For as it was reueiled that our sauiour is truly God and man so euerie man of coÌ„mon sense knowes that he had two wills Deuine and human against the Monothelites Other points there may be which neede art and studie to deduce and fetch them out of the two former And of these likewise a true Deuine cannot be ignoraÌ„t being they are be fruits of learning and studie and consequently haue euer beene in the soules and writings of learned Masters And these points euerie one knowes who is conuersant in Logike and in iudging the qualities of such propositions as belong to scieÌ„ce And your self I am sure by the litle skill you haue therein and by the smale light of this discourse will eastly iudge that this is reasonable Nephew I conceiue your meaning but whereas you saie that the points of the second order are as firme as those which are deliuered by Tradition me thinke's that 's not reasonable sithence Tradition relye's wholy on God and his word but the other only vpoÌ„ man's discourse which is falible and easily mistaken and therefore must of necessitie be much inferior Vncle. I would not haue you take my words so precisely not in so rigorous a degree of comparison for so euen of demonstrations the precedent will be esteemed more certaine then that which is deduced out of it though in a morall eâ—tiâ—ation the certainties be equall And so it is in those two degrees for truly that litle discourse which is required for the second degree is infalible certaine and euident and therefore the knowledge proceeding froÌ„ it may well be rancked with the former degree But I suppose you expect to heare why it doth not follow that if a truth not deliuered by Tradition may neuerthelesse passe for such why I saie an errour may not haue the same progresse and surprise the church that is Â§. 11 Why no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God ANd this I will shew you in a word because it falleth into the repetitioÌ„ of what we haue alreadie discoursed on The impossibilities are three First it trencheth vpon the resolution wee formerly made that one man's authoritie could not preuaile against and ouer the whole church for this is the difference betwixt a truth and a false hood that a truth though it beginne from one yet may it be accepted of by all by reason of it's euidence Which when one hath laid opeÌ„ others may follow not for the man's authoritie but for the loue of the seene truth Whereas falsehood which cannot bring euidence with it must be bolstered vp by the man's credit aÌ„d reputation which you know is insufficient Secondly it is impossible an errour should generally preuaille by reason of the immutabilitie which is in the vniuersalitie of contingent causes whose particulars may be defectiue but the vniuersalls cannot So that as it is impossible in nature that all children should be borne with one eye all coltes with three leggs or the like so were it a monstrous accident and that in a higher and more immutable nature if an errour should generally preuaile and passe through all mankinde or through so great a part of it as we make accounte the Catholike church is and will euer be The third impossibilitie is because it trencheth vpon the stabilitie of Religion for sithence we agreed that t' is impossible for anie nation to haue no Religion and as impossible to change a true into a false And likewise that Christian doctrine hath the nature of science so farre as that no errour can fall into it but must bring contradiction and opposition against the principles and receiued practize of the church and so make a breach against the antient possession it doth therefore plainely appeare that as it is impossible for such a breach to become vniuersall in time and place so likewise must it needes be impossible that an vntruth should be vniuersally receiued for tradition hauing not beene deliuered as such Nephew I must confesse your reasons seeme good yet might one saie all your reasoÌ„s are but morall persuasions which may faile as if one should saie it is reasonable to thinke an honest man will not lye yet I doubt not but some times the coÌ„trarie happene's Wherefore I pray you tell me Â§. 12 Of what qualitie you thinke these your reasons and discourses be and whether you conceiue them to beare an absolute certaintie VNcle I feare it will be to farr on the night before I can satisfie your difficultie yet I will shew you breefly and familiarly what may suffice Tell me then doe you thinke there is such a towne as Rome or Constantinople Nephew That I doe I would I knew what I aske as well Vncle. Why who tould you there were anie such townes Nephew Truly I doe not remember who tould me so in particular but I haue heard so manie talke of them without doubting that it were follie to doubt of it Vncle. But if I or some other of whose honestie you doe not doubt should tell you we haue beene there and haue seene those townes with our owne eyes would you belieue it more certainely then you doe Nephew No in deede vncle for although I should in that case make no doubt of it yet their authorities vpon which I doe alreadie belieue it are no lesse nay farr greater seeing that if it were not fo manie more of no lesse credit and reputation must be lyars whoÌ„ though I cannot name yet nature tell 's me that if thousands had not reported it of their owne knowledge it could not passe so constaÌ„tly and vncontrowlably as is doth Vncle. But if a man should come with manie great reasoÌ„s and motiues to persuade you that there is not euer was anie such cities a we speake of Nay let vs suppose that if you liued but 20 myles from London where euerie day you fawe hundreth's come from theÌ„ce and your self had neuer beene there And there should come vnto you a man who should labour to shew by reason that it were a follie to thinke there were anie such towne as LondoÌ„ Or to make our supposition more strong suppose you had liued diuers yeares in London and had neuer seene

shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how Â§. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and

to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficieÌ„t to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. CypriaÌ„ seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more theÌ„ what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatioÌ„ and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessioÌ„ of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor caÌ„ performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition froÌ„ the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to Â§. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt AdaÌ„'s being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accouÌ„ted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three desceÌ„ts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the cleÌ„sing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abaÌ„doned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this coÌ„trouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgotteÌ„ or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preueÌ„ted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerruÌ„ne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch aÌ„d Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpoÌ„ this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's

or authoritie vpon earth to take vp these quarells and decide these controuersies shall matters of such maine importance and great consequeÌ„ce euer remaine a perpetuall subiect of endlesse dissention and diuision shall the Catholike church and Christian Religion bee torne and rente in peeces eueÌ„ in what is most substaÌ„tiall and essentiall in hir for still I saie the like may be said of what pointe soeuer at the will and pleasure of some priuate meÌ„'s phansies and no power ordained to preuent such essentiall and eternall disorders If this be not to ruine aÌ„d ouerthrow all gouerment and Religion and to introduce confusion both common sense and reasoÌ„ faileth Put this libertie of beleeuing only what he thinkes he find's in the scripture but in to one man's hands to wit the first beginner and brocher of a new dogme and let him be a man to whom the sharpenesse of wit and some times a seeming good life hath giuen authoritie though truly his spirit is gouerned ether by a secret pride or by some other interest or indignation and see if such an one be not able to draw a great multitude euen the third part of the starrs after him especially if he preach libertie ether of minde or bodie and haue with all the hand of some Prince full of rewards and punishments to second his inteÌ„tions Calculate what the industrie of such a formed party hartily cleauing together is not able to invente Some haue beene able to cast mistes euen vpon mathematikes and vpoÌ„ the most certaine principles of nature and laying then those qualities of scripture which I haue tould you of to the disposition of those factious persons what euidence thinke you can be expected from the conflicts of such meÌ„ disputing vpon such groundes Nephew Truble yourself no farther in this pointe for I cannot but confesse that the euidence you haue brought is greater then I could expect or desire Wherefore I pray hold me no longer in suspence but tell mee Â§. 12 Which be the wayes or manners of iudging pointes of ReligioÌ„ out of the scripture VNcle Why cozen tell me first doe you see the walle before you some fouer or fiue yards froÌ„ you and how much of if doe you see Nephew I see it perfectly well God be thanked and it is white there is fower pictures hangs on it and half a douzen chaires stand against it To tell you precisely how much of it I see together that I perhapps cannot but in a short turning of myne eye I can see it all or verie neare if I will Vncle. I pray goe within a spanne of it and then tell mee what difference you finde in the sight of the walle Nephew Marry I finde now that I see much lesse of it but that which I doe see and which lyeth directly before me I see farr better and can distinguish euerie litle part in it and of what collour it is Vncle. Did you not tell mee cozen the walle was white how cometh it to passe that you tell me now you see what collour euerie part of it is Nephew It seemed all white before whilest I was a good wale from it but when I came neere it I could perceiue some litle parts dunne others browne and the like but sure the white parts were much more Vncle. Why then cozen you may thinke that you did not perfectly see the collour of the walle before for the collour of the walle must needes be the collour of the parts and you saie the collour of the parts is not one but manie and therefore you only saw the collour of those parts which did exceede the rest And if you tooke anie of those litle parts and put it in a multiplying glasse you would see as great difference of parts and peraduenture of collours to in it as you saw in the walle when you were within a spanne of it so that if one should aske you what you haue seene you would hardly quit your self handsomly of the question Notwithstanding you perceiue well enough that the first sight of the walle serueth you for all the vses of your life as not to runne against it and generally to know how to comporte your self or vse anie thing else which were requisite to be set towards the walle or in anie manner to be donne about it The second sight serueth you only to know the nature of the walle and to distinguish what is mixed in it or of what ingredients it is composed or the like So that you see the easier and more common knowledge of anie thing serueth for the direction of our liues the more particular and exact knowledge is only required ether for the content of the knower or for some speciall practize vpon the thing knowne Nephew I belieue I vnderstand alreadie which waie you intende to carrie me for you will tell me that there are two manners of vnderstaÌ„ding scripture the one a Kinde of large manner taking it in grosse and a great deale together as we take a discourse or playe which pleasingly passeth away without anie great demurr or particular weighing of euerie word The other more curious and exact looknig into euerie litle proprietie which may breede anie diuersitie And I suppose you would tell me that this second beloÌ„geth only to schollers but that the former guideth our life and gouerneth our actions And t' is true I see the people is ordinarily caried a waye by their preachers Antient common wealths by their Oratours and in what matter soeuer an eloquent and elaborate discours which passeth sweetly in this sort gaine 's presently the suffrages of the Auditorie Wherefore I must needes confesse that what good effect soeuer is the end for which the scripture was ordained if it be anie thing belonging to man's life and conuersation it must be compassed by this grosse coÌ„mon and ordinarie course of reading and vnderstanding it Where as if a man should ouer examine euerie word he would not finde grounde to fixe him self with aduantage and vtilitie Is not this your meaning Vncle. You are verie right And surely if we looke into what is in the scripture necessarie for our good life and vertuous conuersation we shall finde plainely that t' is to be had this waie As the direction of our liues and actions to God acknowledging all things from him Comfort in aduersitie moderation in prosperitie compassion of the afflicted helping of the needie Rewards of vertue punishments of vice examples of both and in a word the motiues of the loue of God and our neighbour and of the coÌ„tempt of the world Who therefore is so blinde as not to see that these things are to be found in the scripture by a sensible common and discreet reading of it though perhapps by a rigorous aÌ„d exact ballancing of euerie particular word and syllable anie of these things would vanish awaie we know not how but to come yet closser to our pourpose doe you thinke this manner of reading scripture would make a man

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