Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	scripture_n	sense_n	true_a	4,624	5	5.7921	4	false

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A05212	A disputation of the Church wherein the old religion is maintained. V.M.C.F.E.	Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640?; F. E., fl. 1629.	1629 (1629)	STC 15348; ESTC S100251	235,937	466

is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a maÌ„ may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned aÌ„d vnlerned late aÌ„d auÌ„cieÌ„t is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people aÌ„d their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poiÌ„ts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religioÌ„ and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then meÌ„ doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstaÌ„d howe the Catholiques in the whole body froÌ„ the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstaÌ„ding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstaÌ„ding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religioÌ„ vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religioÌ„ as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundameÌ„talls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundameÌ„talls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie aÌ„d putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt SecoÌ„dlie it is obscure aÌ„d therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this

Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.

of the tyme they liued in produce a Catalogue a Continuall Catalogue of such meÌ„ as agreed in doctrine with you such as held the religion now currant in England who were they whence were they where were they hould vp your head man open your eies and looke the question in the face THE THIRD CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen to the demaund by recourse vnto Antiquitie 15. HAd your religion bene such that you could haue giuen accoÌ„pt and euidence of her continuall existence in the world there would yet remaine a greater taske behinde which were to prooue the generall communion it had with Nations and that it was and is Catholique in that respect that it did and doth consent with Antiquitie with the Apostles doctrine and with the Scripture for this must be prooued and exactly too before wee receaue it See the Protest Apol. and the Prud. Ballance and leaue that which hath bene generallie professed in England well neare a thousand yeares together and was all that space the knowne religioÌ„ of the ChristiaÌ„ world The true religion is such as I haue said and therfore if you will haue vs praie with you first showe that your Church is thus ample thus Catholique thus grounded and ours not for vntill you prooue this which will neuer be you may not hope that wee will come out of our Church into yours To proceed therfore I demaund euidence that your religion that I saie which in England is now curraÌ„t hath bene generallie in the coÌ„munion of the Christian world and I demaund such euidence as may commaund a wise maÌ„ to beleeue it Your answeare to this in effect is that in the first six hundred years it was so though you will not be tied to giue accoÌ„pt of it afterwardes By which euasion I doe gather that you apprehend the former argumeÌ„t as a ghost haunting and affrighting you seeing that for feare of meeting it againe you haue stepped ouer a thousand yeares together to take sanctuarie among the Fathers in their Church I was about to saie you were ill aduised to adueÌ„ture yourselfe thether where IouiniaÌ„s NouatiaÌ„s Donatistes and other your progenitors were coÌ„demned and accursed but coÌ„sidering your case better I see that feare would not let you aduise at all but cast you no matter whether so it were farre ynough out of my waie 16. Now therfore I follow thether but first obserue how you dare not auouch and in effecte do deny that the religion you maintaine was openlie professed receaued publicklie for nine hundred yeares before Luther which is but could encouragement for men to come to or to staie with you who pretending to giue accompt of a continuall succession and euer visible Catholique Church doe come so short of the thinge expected that you can show none in all the world for nine huÌ„dred yeares together and this which you haue said being wrested out of you vppon the racke aÌ„d much against your will because infinitelie preiudiciall to your cause I take for an effect of the former argument which you haue not ben able to answeare yet nor euer will be The like issue it hath oft had before for your writers aÌ„d best learned men hauing the space of a hundred yeares together bene vrged and importuned with this question haue laboriouslie searched all recordes turned ouer and ouer all authors examined all writinges with that industrie men are to suppose which a cause required wheruppon eternitie doth depende and yet after infinite inquisition cannot finde such a Church in former tyme as yours is and herevpon haue confessed that the Christian world was of our Religion before Luther not of yours imagining hereby a generall Apostasie froÌ„ the faith to haue ouerrunne the whole world Cal. praef Instit Hence Caluin in his Institutions saith that in the ages past there was no face of a true Church and that the true ReligioÌ„ was drowned aÌ„d ouerthrowne for many ages Whittaker saith no religion but the papisticall had place in the Church Whittak cont Dur. p. 274. and wee knowe saith he as plainlie that the Church hath perisshed as thou knowest a man to be dead The Popes tyranny saith Luther hath extinguisshed the faith many ages Luth. Capt Babil c. de Bapt. Perk. Expos Creed p. 400. Simon Voyon Ep ad lect Hutter de sacrif mis p. 377. Before the dayes of Luther saith Perkins for the space of many huÌ„dred yeares an vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the world When Boniface was installed saith an other the whole world was ouerwhelmed in the dregges of AntichristiaÌ„ filthines with superstitioÌ„s and traditioÌ„s of the Pope another I graunt willinglie that the papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especiallie these last thousaÌ„d yeares another Hospin Hist Sacram l. 2. p. 157. in the tyme of Gregorie the great all kinde of superstitioÌ„ aÌ„d Idolatrie hath as a sea ouerflowed all the Christian world no man resisting Another the Papisticall aÌ„d Antichristian Raigne began about the yeere 316. after Christ raigning vniuersallie aÌ„d without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260. yeares Napp on the Reuel p. 68. the Pope and his clergie during all that tyme possessing the outward visible Church of the ChristiaÌ„s another For certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church Seb. Franc. Ep de abrog stat Eccl. together with the faith and sacrameÌ„ts vanished a way presentlie after the Apostles departure and for these 1400. yeares the Church hath bene no where externall and visible another the true Church decaied immediatelie after ther Apostles tyme. Fulk answer to Counterf Cath. p. 35. I haue a horrour to recite what the bouldnes of your men doth auouch further towching the Christian Church in common and her Apostasie from the faith coÌ„trarie to the seÌ„se of all Antiquity and to the iudgment of the Christian world yea contrarie to the promises of Iesus Christ and to the couenant of allmightie God as hereafter I will shewe Meane while compare these textes vnto your doctrine of the Church In the later dayes shall be prepared the mountaine Isay 2. the house of our lord in the toppe of mountaines and it shall be raised aboue the litle hilles and all Nations shall flowe vnto it Thou shalt not be called any more forsaken and thy land shall not be any more called desolate Id. c. 62. but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because our lord hath taken complacence in thee and thy land shall be inhabited Id. c. 59. My spirit that is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede saith our lord from hence foorth and for euer 17. The Church in the Scripture is so ample that All nations flowe vnto it so established and so deare vnto Christ that she is no more forsaken but her laÌ„d euer

Here I replie that wee haue Scripture too and that you cannot bringe sufficient euidence that the Scripture is against vs and with you For tryall of this I am contented according to your desire to abstract from all other meanes what soeuer from the testimonies of learned Fathers from the definitions of generall Councells from consent of Nations and other argumeÌ„ts of that kinde and to see whether the Scripture alone will approue or condeÌ„ne our Religion And because in deducing a consequence out of obscure premises a mans wit may be deceaued I wil abstract from this allso that is from drawing consequences out of Scripture looking onely to that which is and necessarily must be true and which is formallie auouched or denied in Gods word and I argue thus The Scripture doth no where formallie denie any point of our faith nor formallie affirme any point which our Church doth denie therefore the Scripture doth not formallie condemne vs. I say formallie for your consequences are not Scripture and therefore I abstract as I said from them as impertinent to the termes and state of this Question wherein now wee are 27. To this argumeÌ„t you and your fellowes make answeare by allegation of Scripture against vs The chiefest I will brieflie runne ouer here the rest shall be answered in other places as it comes Wee honour Images Ex. 20.4 Honoraria adoratione non vera latria Conc. gen Nic. 2. act 7. in deâ—i in ep ad Impp. and this you say is opposite to that of Exodus thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen thing nor the likenes c. Our doctrine is that Images are indeed to be honoured yet not with the soueraigne honour due to God but with another inferior This is declared by the Church in the second Nicene Councell Now to the place of Scripture I answeare that it makes not against vs because respectiue or relatiue honour giuen to pictures in regard of the reference they haue ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ to the Samplers is not there spokeÌ„ of ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ non adorabis ea neque latria coles ea but soueraigne honour onely aÌ„d this wee do not giue to pictures The truth of this answeare is cleere by the circumstaÌ„ces of the text wherein allmightie God reserues his Soueraignetie and the honour due to God vnto him selfe as being the onely God and none God but he To helpe out your argument here you adde a word of your owne to the text and reade thou shalt make to thee no grauen image whereas the Hebrew word ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ doth not signifie an image but sculptile a grauen thing You might as well haue said sculpere were latine for to paint The Greeke text hath ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ The 70. Interpreters whence the Latine word IdoluÌ„ in English an Idol aÌ„d the litterall sense is thou shalt not make to thy selfe an idol that is a feined God nor adore him Now Catholiques neither make to them selues nor adore Idols nor yeeld Soueraigne honour or acknowledgment of Deitie to any but to God wherefore this place is not against vs. And if you will needs haue the Scripture to contradict vs in this point since contradiction must be affirmatioÌ„ and negation of the same and since the words worship and honour haue diuers senses for men do worship allso others that are not Gods and do honour their prince their Parents c let vs heare out of the Scripture the opposite of that which wee say ours is this it is lawfull to honour Images with a relatiue honour which is not the soueraigne honour due to God but an other infinitely lesse the contradictory wherevnto is this it is not lawfull to giue such an honour vnto Images Showe this proposition in the Scripture and you condemne vs otherwise it is impertineÌ„t and because I knowe it is not there at all I goe to the next wherein you labour to knocke our Church on the heade by proouing the Pope to be Antichrist 28. The text cited is this 2. Thesâ— 2â— v. 3.4 Vnlesse there come a reuolt first and the man of sinne the sonne of perdition be reuealed which is an aduersary and is exalted aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he sitteth in the teÌ„ple of God VVitcâ— sewing him him selfe as if he were God This text should not haue bene vrged together with the former if you had looked to gaine any thinge with it for by the former you would haue prooued that the Pope made himselfe and taught the Church to be inferiour to many Gods And Antichrist as you finde here will pretend to be aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped how then can you imagine the Pope to be Antichrist againe the Pope doth worship and pray to Saincts and Angells he doth acknowledge himselfe to be minister and seruant to Iesus Christ he doth acknowledge the blessed Trinitie to haue made and to conserue him and to be infinitely greater then he the Pope is in power and Maiestie and this he doth teach vnto the Church Dan. 7. 11. whereas Antichrist will extoll himselfe aboue all that is worshipped and will speake greate things against the God of Gods and will laboure to be greater in the estimatioÌ„ of men then all that is called God and thus to sit in Gods Temple Moreouer S. Peeter did sit as Vicar and Pastor in the Church Matth. 16.18 Io. 21.18 he being by our Sauiour created the foundation and the Pastor of it and his residence was in Rome allso yet none hath bene hetherto so impudeÌ„t as to say that he was Antichrist and he were sensles that would auouch it since Antichrist is not a minister of Christ and his seruant but an aduersary who doth magnifie himselfe aboue him and aboue all that is adored Wherefore it is a sensles thing to say that the successors of S. Peeter are Antichrist for that reason that is because they sit as Pastors in the Church and reside in Rome And thus much for the matter of this instance As for the forme of it you must obserue better that the text of Scripture doth not affirme that which wee denie or denie that which wee affirme Wee say the Pope is the Pastor of the Church and Vicare of Christ and that he is not Antichrist The Scripture doth not say the Pope is not Pastor of the Church that he is not the Vicar of Christ that he is Antichrist And therefore our Church hetherto is not formallie contradicted by the Scripture 29. 1. Cor. 10 16. ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ That which is in the Chalice is it which did issue out of the side c. Chrysost in hunc locum Thirdly to contradict the Church which doth beleeue the holy Eucharist to be the body and bloud of Christ and not bakers breade and bare wine though it be in the outward formes of them You bringe the place

of the Deuil opposed to the Cittie of God or Societie of the Good Others think it to be Rome as it was in S. Iohns time when the Emperours there abiding did persecute the Church of Christ and as it will be about the end of the world Be it this or that or some other nothing is heere auouched against vs. It is not heere said that the Pope is that Woman or that he is the Beast on which the Woman sate or that he is one of the Heades of the Beast or that he is Antichrist No one of all these is heere affirmed why then do you alleage it what is this to the argument wherein I said the Scripture doth no where formallie contradict vs or how doth it iustifie your bragge that you haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on your side 43. And thus farre concerning the texts alleaged by Iohn White which he affirmed to be manifestlie and without ambiguitie for the Protestants where as not any one doth in termes contradict that which our Church doth teach which was the thinge he made his reader to expect But you will bid a man aske the Spirit for the sense of these places And to meet with you at this turning too so will I. You will direct him to the Spirit in your selfe in Iohn white I will direct him to the Spirit in the Church My direction and resolution is well grounded as I will declare here after Yours is not And if by this litle which hath bene said here in this Chapter a man would make a guesse at your Spirit he should quicklie find his nature First he contradicts the Spirit of the Fathers who held Purgatory merit c. SecoÌ„dlie he coÌ„tradicts the Spirit of the Catholike Church which he doth oppose in these things Thirdly he contradicts the Spirit of S. Iohn the Apostle and imputes vnto him a deliberate act of superstitious Idolatrie so you call adoring aÌ„gells together with grosse stupiditie that being tould once and that by an Angell too he would not forbeare but doe it againe But of this I shall speake againe in an other place that which for the present I conclude here is that the Scripture doth not condemne vs in plaine words You haue done all you can to shew it and cannot yet finde one place for this purpose You see allso by the way what I thinke of your consequences though that was not my scope in this discourse as I declared in the begining of the former Chapter THE SIXT CHAPTER That is vnpossible for Protestants to winne the cause by Scripture 44. HEretiques all generallie affect obscuritie they drawe their opponent as much as euer they can into the darke that he may not see there what they doe or their confusion be concealed from the people and so their credit saued I expected cleere places I looked for a coÌ„bate in the light you should haue shewne in plaine words in the Scripture there is no Purgatory Christ is not in the Sacrament reallie Priests and Bysshops may take wiues to worship Angells is Idolatrie These and the rest of your propositions you should haue showne there if you would haue woÌ„ne that way and haue done that which you pretended But you haue not done it you haue cited some places which haue it not in the words and in regard they are obscure to you or to the ignorant you suspect or guesse and preteÌ„d the sense which you would haue may lie secret in the words though you cannot shewe it there and wee knowe it is not there at all Wee haue light enough to see that the Scripture in those places doth not as much as obscurely speake against vs wee haue prayer aÌ„d industry wee haue the Fathers helpe wee haue innumerable eies regardiÌ„g the doctrine of the Church and the Scripture and coÌ„paring them together In a word the assisting Spirit with all his guifâ—s is in our Church 45. Now to shewe further how vnpossible a taske it is for you to declare and make it euident out of Scripture that yours is the true Religion and ours not I will turne the argument which I did vse in the begining of the former Chapter into an other forme aÌ„d make it thus If the scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours Arg. it is vnpossible for you to make it euident by the Scripture that your Religion is true and ours false But the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours and this I will shewe running thorough the points wherein our maine difference doth consist which are the Infallibility of the Church in deliuering Scripture aÌ„d Gods word generallie Traditions reall Presence OblatioÌ„ of Christs body aÌ„d blood in the formes of bread aÌ„d wine for the remissioÌ„ of Sinnes which is the vnbloodie Sacrifice The Primacie of S Peeter and his Pastorall office Absolution from sinnes by Priests Indulgences Iustice before God and intrinsecall in meÌ„ or inherent Iustification by works and Reward of them keeping the Commandements Freewill in works of grace Vowes and workes of Counsell not of command Single life prayer for the dead Intercession of Sainctes and Angells and finallie Worship of some things inanimate or sensles in regard of the reference they haue to things truely capable of honour more then ciuile In these generall heads the rest are included and these you name allwayes and stand most vppon them I am now by my promise to bringe their grounds out of Sripture wherein I will be as briefe as I can and will begin with the neerest which is the last aÌ„d so backwards till I meete the first againe Before I begine the taske two thinges are to be noted The first is that I am not in this Chapter to coÌ„tend about the sense and meaning if you pretend it is not that which the words offer immediately but that my taske is donne if I bringe places of scripture which affirme formally if the words be taken in their proper sense that which wee doe A further Iudgment or determination of the meaning and sense of the words I bringe is to be taken from the testimonie of the Spirit The Spirit I say is to be iudge of the sense and meaning not the spirit of externes or in them but the spirit in Gods Church And this Iudgment is euidently on our side as I will prooue in the third booke Here I am not to meddle with it but only to finde our doctrine in the same or equiualent words and to put it here downe This you must beare in minde likewise for the argumeÌ„t which in the third Chapter I made out of the Fathers It suffised there against you to cite our doctrine out of their mouthes Of their meaning the Spirit must be Iudge And not the Spirit in externes but the Spirit in the Church The second is that since to descend vnto particulars and to inquire each ones opinion in matter of Religion among ProtestaÌ„ts is endles and of infinite regard 3. Book

q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church

England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee â— 2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you aÌ„d for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not coÌ„sequeÌ„te that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge oÌ„ all aÌ„d thinkes to make an eÌ„d of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The wholâ— Church militant consisting of meÌ„ Whâ— are lyers may erre alltogetheâ— as euery part theroâ— Fulk ansâ— to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were asseÌ„bled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumeÌ„t did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseueraÌ„ce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue fouÌ„d and haue bene forsakeÌ„ by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted froÌ„ the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds aÌ„d of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their abseÌ„ce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demauÌ„d why the Catholiques of EnglaÌ„d be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasoÌ„ aÌ„d to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with theÌ„ in this manner before you giue euideÌ„ce that you are not in errour since you likewise are meÌ„ and all meÌ„ may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater theÌ„ any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the EuaÌ„gelists Apostles aÌ„d Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe aÌ„d caÌ„ prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all meÌ„ may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her

on with your conceipt but wrong not other men The Aethiopians as blacke as they are doe loath and abhorre the communion of your Church and are the more vnwilling to heare of it Luther Respons ad Dialog Syluest Pri. Calu. in Antidot Conc. Tri. sess 6. c. 12. because she is not ashamed to professe that she caÌ„not keepe the coÌ„maundementes with all the helpe she hath froÌ„ God allmightie and coÌ„sequentlie that she cannot for beare blasphemie nor errour nor witchcraft nor adulterie nor murder nor robberie in fine that she caÌ„not possiblie obserue that Minimum legis mandatuÌ„ onus Aetna grauius Calu. Ibid. which equitie doth require and God commaund And for this among other reasons not Ethiopians onelie but all the rest of the world loathe her and wishe she were retired againe into her hole of inuisibilitie 12. As touching your maÌ„ner of answearing I wish you to consider that you doe not satisfie our demaund nor euer will by naming such as agree not with vs in some one point or more White Illyricus vnles you prooue likewise that they doe agree with you and be of the religioÌ„ which in England you professe For example if you name a maÌ„ which denied the Popes primacie Ob. The Papists haue not a Succession of such as they are Answ. l. 2. c. 6. and l. 3. c. 4. as you doe if this man consent not with you in other thinges it is childish to thinke you satisfie our demaund by naming him he may be in other pointes of the same minde with vs or with Arians or with NestoriaÌ„s or with Eutichians or Mahometans or Iewes or Athiestes and therfore not a Protestant vnles you admit all kind of men into your communion and will haue the Protestant Church to be the congregation of them all And this too would not serue for the thing wee demauÌ„d is a catalogue or successioÌ„ of meÌ„ whose religion is the same with yours and currant there in EnglaÌ„d In like maÌ„nner if you should name a man which agreed with you in one halfe of your positions and in the other halfe dissented this man were not yours yea lesse then halfe or a quatter or the tenth part is Ynough to diuide a man from communion and from vnitie in beleefe as you may see in S. Epiphanius S. Epiph. op Panar S. Aug. de Haeres tom 6. and S. Augustine That you may the better conceaue me suppose one of your fellowes is become an Arian I aske you whether he be of your religion and whether his religion be currant there in England or not if it be then Arianisme is there curraÌ„t though the Roman profession be abhorred if it be not theÌ„ a fewe yea one point is ynough to diuide you in religion from that man and him from you Now those men which you bring were each of them contrarie in many pointes as Waldo Berengarius Wickleffe and therefore diuided and distinct in religion froÌ„ you Neither will your distinction of points fundamentall and not fundameÌ„tall help you here both because those men did differ in your fundamentall aÌ„d most essentiall point of Protestancie that is in the matter of Iustification as also because errours in other pointes besides those which you call fundamentall are sufficient to make distinction in religion which is euident and by your selues caÌ„not be denied for you saie that Papistes holde all fuÌ„dameÌ„talls and yet their religion is not yours But of this I haue spoked alreadie and neede not repeate it I onelie adde now that a man by your principles may denie euery verse which is in the Bible and obstinatelie too excepting that onelie which is expressed in the three Creedes and Baptisme and the Supper and yet be of the same Church and communion with your selfe And what thinke you of your fellow that saieth further that Arian Churches are allso to be accompted the Churches of God because they hold the foundation of the Gospell If this hold Morton of the Kingd of Isr and the Church p. 94. what makes an heretique what communion doe you refuse what Church among Christians can be false If all the Bible but twelue propositions or there aboutes if the Incarnation if the Trinitie if the Christians God may be denied and the deniers be accompted the Church of God It restes that you saie now that the Turkes are also of the same Church and religion with your selues 13. A like obseruatioÌ„ to the former I would haue you to reflect on wheÌ„ our meÌ„ demauÌ„d White what Church wee went out of and what precedent Church did oppose it selfe to our religion and contradict it Wee doe not aske whether any man euer did oppose any part of our beleefe wee know there were such there were some which did oppose the deitie of our Sauiour some the Deitie of the holy Ghost some the real Presence some Images c. this wee know but the demauÌ„d requires proofe of a ProtestaÌ„t Church or any other if you be wearie of defeÌ„ding your owne which being before ours did examine iudge and coÌ„demne our religion If your men will giue satisfaction to the questioÌ„ they must answeare this they must assigne a visible Church allwayes extant which did still condemne our religion whensoeuer wee appeared and being one in it selfe was still against vs at all tymes when wee were Your last answere is that the Church of God was all infected with erroures for many hundred yeares which errours were such notwithstanding saie you as destroied not her essence white And this conceipt you declare in the exaÌ„ple of a leprouse maÌ„ For your Church I admit easilie that it is infected with errours The Church of God is not as you shall heare in the third booke where that matter shall be examined in the meane tyme I repeate the former argument and put it thus Either all Christians before Luther did erre in Matters of religioÌ„ Arg. or some onelie or none at all If none at all did erre Then why would you mend that which by your coÌ„fession was not before amisse why trouble you the world to bringe in a newe religion without which you confesse it was well before If all of them did erre in matters of religion then your religion did not come downe to you from the Apostles by a succession continuall as you pretend your faith and religion was not alwayes in the world the Gospell was not sincearlie and incorruplie professed at all tymes I adde further if al did erre then you haue vndertaken a taske vnpossible in your owne iudgment in offering to maintaine a perpetuall existence or being of your religion and you quarrell with all that went before And where then was the all teaching spiritte did he mistake the true doctrine or did Christ breake his word If some onelie did erre and not all giue vs a Catalogue of some of theÌ„ who did not erre let vs heare their names the place of their aboade the profession they were

inhabited so mind full of God that she hath his words euer in her mouth and by this she is euer existent euer visible That Church or whore which you hunte after perished longe agoe for many ages she was not seene her faith was extinguished her religion drowned she was no where visible she had no face she vanished presentlie immediatelie after the Apostles dayes Our Religion in the meane tyme hathe bene vniuersall many hundred yeares it hath ouer flowed the Christian world none resisting and raigned vniuersallie without any debateable contradiction these thousand two hundred sixtie yeares And thus much of them both you confesse 18. I come now to speake of the religion of the Church primitiue or first six hundred yeares as you measure it and obiect that you doe not nor euer will be able to conuince by cleare and sufficient euidence that the Christian Church in those tymes was of the religion currant now in England and therfore you doe not conuince our vnderstandings that wee should leaue that religion which a thousand yeeres together was currant here in England being then allso by your owne confession the religion of the Christian world and communicate with your congregation And to shewe you here how hard a taske you haue in hand being to giue euidenee of the consent of those tymes with you in religion I will put three considerations in your way which declare the difficultie and indeede the impossibilitie of the taske The first shall be the iudgmeÌ„t of those who liued since that tyme aÌ„d before vs the second the testimonies of the Fathers theÌ„ selues who liued in that primitiue age the third the confession of your owne prime deuines and these I will runne ouer as brieflie as I can 19 First therfore our Religion or Papistrie as you call it had possession of the Christian Arg. 1 world before Luther nine hundred yeares together You confesse the same as wee haue seene aboue nu 16. as all histories doe prooue cleerlie and these Christians all on their Saluation haue deposed that theirs was the verie same religion with that which was commoÌ„ in the first six huÌ„dred yeares and receaued from the Apostles and from Christ himselfe Among them were greate Schollers graue Prelates and holie meÌ„ in great abundance and greater meanes to knowe which was the religion of their forefathers then are now wherfore the question being of fact onelie it is not possible to resolue it better now then those could resolue it then The question I say is now aÌ„d then was of fact as whether the knowne Church of God spred ouer the world in the sixt age for example did frequeÌ„t masse adore the blessed Sacrament confesse their sinnes to Priests fast lent pray to Sainctes and the like what wee knowe of these things wee haue by the relation or writings of others which were before vs for wee caÌ„not see so far immediately with our owne eies nor immediatelie heare them speaking in that age which is past many hundred yeares agoe Those before vs did learne of others that were elder the fourteenth age learned of the thirteenth the thirteeÌ„th of the twelfth the eight of the seuenth the seuenth was immediate vnto the sixt aÌ„d therefore had best meanes to resolue this point because these meÌ„ had their Being Instruction Baptisme Sacraments Orders Records the Bible and all others things from them we speake of that is from the sixt age aÌ„d being close to them of that age So compare the 6. age to the 5. the 5. to the 4. c. and in part allso liuing with them could see heare obserue remember and tell what they did Since therfore all these did beleeue and professe and teach vnto their successors and to their dearest frinds and children aÌ„d generallie vnto the world that theirs was the religioÌ„ of their forefathers it is too late for you now to endeauour to prooue the contrarie for you haue no kinde of historie no monument no relation no fathers writing no scrowle no obseruation in fine noe euidence touching the foresaid age but from them To this I adde that it is vnpossible for the whole Church in any age to erre which is so cleere that to man leaues any way to himselfe to be assured in any point of faith from Antiquitie or from the scripture or from the spirit who denieth it It is therefore vnpossible that for nine hundred yeeres together it should be mystaken in this great affaire of the religioÌ„ of the whole World before them And if the Spirit forsooke it for so loÌ„ge a tyme together notwithstanding Gods promise you labour in vaine to make men beleeue that he is at leÌ„gth returned in your tyme or another promise more faithfully establisshed now Better were it for you to beleeue with vs that allmightie God hath not violated his couenant wherof I spake before my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed Isay 59.21 and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede from this present and foreuer And that his eternall ordinance stands in force whereof S. Paul speaketh saying that God gaue Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the saincts Ephes 4. v. 11.12 vnto the worke of the ministerie to the edifieing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnity of faith 21. The second meanes or demonstration Arg. 2 is deduced larglie through all ages and out of all the Fathers writings by diuers of our men Thesaurus Catholicus Iod. Cocc among the rest you may looke vppon Coccius and Gualterius who haue expressed our consent with the primitiue Church so fullie and brought such euident and so resolute decrees of auncient Fathers against your errours Tabula Chronographica stat Eccl. Cath. â—aâ— Gualt that you haue dispaired longe agoe of euer winning the cause by this kinde of triall The authorities which they alleage are allmost infinite Coccius hath filled with them two great Tomes and my intention is not to make a booke of this matter but a peece of a Chapter onelie Brieflie therefore for exaÌ„ple I will giue aÌ„ instaÌ„ce in two or three such as doe come first into my minde You denie the primacie of the Roman See the beleefe of vnwritten Doctrine or Tradition the reall preseÌ„ce traÌ„substantiatioÌ„ or coÌ„uersioÌ„ of the substaÌ„ce of breade into the flesh of Christ oblatioÌ„ or vnbloody Sacrifice in the Church prayer for the dead inuocatioÌ„ of Sainctes Crossing c. In the Fathers wee reade thus S. Aug. Ep. 162. Iren. l. 3. aduers Haer. c. 3. The principalitie of the Apostolicall chaire hath euer florished in the Roman Church It is necessarie that euery Church that is all faithfull rounde aboute resorte vnto the Roman Church because of her more powerfull Principalitie in which Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles is allwayes kept by the faithfull which are round about Leo Sem 3.

of S. Paul The chalice of benediction which wee do blesse is it not the communication of the bloud of Christ and the bread which wee breake is it not the participation of the body of our lord I answeare that our doctrine is not here denied but affirmed for the Apostle teacheth here importing withall by his manner of speach the doctrine to be so well and so commonly knowne that none can denie it he teacheth I say that the breade and the cuppe are the communication of the body and bloude of our lord The reason whereof is cleere because in those formes are exhibited reallie the body and the bloude of Christ Whereas in your sense there were no reall receauing giuing or participating of the body and bloud of Christ but of bakers breade and meere wine And therefore to the Apostle the Corinthians if they had bene of your Religion might haue answeared no it is not any communication participation or communion of bloude and flesh but of naturall meate and drinke If you stick at the word breade you are dull for the words annexed to it doe interprete fully what breade it is and before you haue the word applied and the sense of it inculcated in the Sixt of S. Iohn where our Sauiour saith the breade which I will giue is my flesh Io. 6. v. 51.32.58.48 my father giues you true bread from heauen I am the breade of life c. where I thinke you are not so seÌ„sles as to take the word breade for that which bakers make More ouer this flesh or body of Iesus Christ is in the forme of bread in the Church as it was allso in his owne haÌ„d wheÌ„ he gaue it uÌ„to his disciples aÌ„d therefore after the phrase of Scripture it is called breade Mar. 16. Act. 1. as Angells appearing in meÌ„s likenes are there called meÌ„ 30. Fourthlie whereas wee say that it is not necessary the publique seruice be said in the vulgar tongue You oppose those words of S. Paul If I pray in a tongue to wit 1. Cor. 14. v. 14. which I vnderstand not my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Answ The meaning is that I haue not in that case the benefit of profiting my soule or minde with contemplation of the thinge yet neuer the lesse my Spirit is eleuated and ascendeth vnto God which is the substance and essence of prayer and this is nothing against vs. You vrge againe if thou blesse in Spirit how shall he say amen which doth supplie the place of the vulgar v. 16. since he knoweth not what thou sayest Answ The meaning is if thou speake some praise of God the hearers not knowing whether it be good or bad he that supplies the place of the vulgar cannot say amen to it Neither is this against vs for our coÌ„mon prayers or liturgies are both knowne and approoued by the Church to whom this approbation doth belonge and this all do know and therefore the clarke or he that supplieth the place of vulgar may boudly sâ—â— Amen Moreouer the Apostle doth not censure as ill that blessing in Spirit which you do vrge but sayeth expresly that he doth giue thankes well which doth so v. 17. If you say the contrary theÌ„ you coÌ„tradict the scripture not wee De imputa iustitia nihil noruÌ„t VValdenses Luth. colâ—oq c. de Suermeris Coce l. 8. â— 4. 31. The fift place is to shewe by Scripture that iustifyiÌ„g faith is that speciall faith whereby you beleeue that your sinnes are all forgiuen and you iust by an extrinsecall imputation of the iustice inherent in Iesus Christ This which is the ground and soule of your Religion wee denie Your proofe is Abraham beleeued God and it was imputed vnto him to iustice Rom. 4.3 v. 16. And therefore of faith that according to grace the promise may be firme Answ This is nothing against vs nor for you for the question is of the Obiect of this faith whether it were the remission of sinnes to him that beleeued they were remitted as you interprete it From the 16. v. to the end or somthing els Reade further and you shall finde in the same Chapter that the Obiect or thing he beleeued was that God would make him the father of many Nations and that notwithstanding his owne age and the sterilitie of his wife God was able to performe this promise Of your Obiect there is not one word neither is it to be fouÌ„d any where in all the Bible The Obiect of Iustifying faith if you beleeue Scripture is the Incarnation the Passion Resurrection and other revealed Mysteries Who is he that ouercometh the world he that beleeueth that Iesus Christ is the sonne of God â— Io. 5. v. 5. Rom. 10.9 If thou confesse with thy mouth our lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him from the deade thou shalt be saued Without faith it is vnpossible to please God for Heb. 11.6 he that coÌ„meth to God must beleeue that he is and is a rewarder to them that seeke him This is the Obiect of iustifying faith and the second part you do not beleeue because it implieth a merite in the beleeuer 32. The sixt place is about communion of lay people in both kinds You would haue it a diuine precept for the lay people I admit a diuine precept for the Priests who do consecrate and denie that there is any such whereby the lay people are commanded to receaue the Sacrament in both kinds Your place is Drinke ye all of this Mat. 26.27 But this place doth not import a precept or commaund for the lay people to receaue the blood for the speach is not directed to the lay people but to the Apostles And the word all is referd to them and was verified by them This is manifest by the words of the Gospell He gaue to his Disciples and said take and eate ibid. v. 26.27.28 this is my body And taking the chalice he gaue thankes and gaue to them the same disciples saying drinke ye all of this for this is my bloode c. And S. Marke relating it saith and taking the chalice giuing thanks he gaue to them and they all dranke of it If all dranke of it theÌ„ by all the Apostles are meant onely for all men were not there neither haue all Christians drunke of it In this therefore you haue produced no diuine precept for all men in their owne persons to receaue the blood 33. The seaueÌ„th place is to prooue the Scripture to be iudge of CoÌ„trouersies aÌ„d sufficient of it selfe without helpe of TraditioÌ„ Wee hold the necessity of TraditioÌ„ too â— Tim. 3.16 The place is All scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the maÌ„ of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Answ This is not against vs wee graunt tath it is profitable Wee denie that it is

verum est Sacrificium Missaticum torum penÃ¨ terrarum orbem inuasisse praesertim superiore proximo millenaâ—io Hutter I graunt willingly that the Papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especially these last thousand yeares g. Simon Voyon Catal. Doct. in ep to the reader Simon Voyon when Boniface was stalled in the Papall throne the whole world was ouer whelmed in the dregges of Antichristian filthines with superstitions and Traditions of the Pope Then was that vniuersall Apostasie from the faith foretould by Paul h. Bibliander orat ad Princip Germ. c. 72. apud Caluinoturc l. 1. c. 4. A morte Gregorij magni ponimus esse per se notum clarissimum extta omnem dubitationem quod Papa Romanus sit Antichristus qui suis abominationibus blaspheâ—iis Idololatriis omnes regesterrae populos Ã summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt brutis ipsis essent stupidiores Bibliander It is of it selfe knowne most cleere and out of all question that from the death of Gregorie the greate the Pope of Rome is Antichrist who with his abominations blasphemies and idolatries so made drunke all kings and people from the highest to the lowest that they were more stupid then very beasts i. Hospinian Hist Sacram. l. 2 p. 157. Gregorij magni aetate omne superstitionis idololatriae genus c. Hospinian In the age of Gregory the greate all kinde of superstition and Idolatrie hath as a Sea ouerflowed allmost all the Christian world not only none resisting but rather all helping and adding thereunto what force they could Thus I haue by Protestants assigned to me the space wherein Papistrie hath ben generall and the supposed Protestancie supprest I meane from Luther vpwards to Boniface and to the death of Gregory the great 20. Now that the Religion generall in the world then was the same with that which was generall in the world in the tyme of Gregorie the greate who died but three yearet before Boniface is manifest by the testimonie of a world of eie witnesses that is by the testimonie of all kingdomes Nations Schollers Pastors People by the testimonie I say of all ChristiaÌ„ Churches which being in the time of Boniface and of our Religion as you heard your Deuines confesse had most of them seene the exercise of the Religion in all the world in S. Gregories tyme and could not be deceaued in the fact subiect to the eie euery where as going to Masse praying to a. Perkins expos Creede pag. 266. b. Bale Centur. 1.74 Id. p. 65. saints coÌ„fessioÌ„ to Priests adoratioÌ„ of the Blessed sacrament c. They had allso all meanes that meÌ„ could haue to be informed certainly of the Religion of the world in S. Gregories tyme Books Records Relations eies to see the practise immediatly eares to heare what they said Instruction Baptisme Bible Orders all they had from them immediatly and the matter touched theÌ„ all and each in particular more then lands life or whatsoeuer else can be deare to man I might confirme this further out of Gods assistaÌ„ce to the Church out of which it commeth ineuitablie that neither the former Religion could abruptly stop as you imagine and the faith faile the Church fall on the suddaine the Church I say diffused thorough the world nor all knowne ChristiaÌ„ Churches in succeeding tyme or the whole Christian world generally erre in a matter of the greatest moment in the discerning the true Religion and the true Church of former tymes Leauing you therefore to deale with babes whom you may peraduenture make beleeue on your bare word without euideÌ„ce against histories against the promise of almighty God aÌ„d against the testimony of all the Church of that tyme that whilst all were a sleepe it seemes by your dreame the Religion of the world was generally changed in Boniface his tyme after the death of Gregorie I take vpon the testimonie of a world of people vpon the Testimonie of all Nations then Christian that it was not but that the Religion then currant was the Religion currant in the tyme of Gregorie the greate 22. Now that S. Gregorie had communion with all the world euery one knowes by his Epistiles to the Bisshops of Corinth Siracusa Extant inter Op. D Greg. Constantinople Alexandria Carthage Numidia Ierusalem Arabia Antioche Arles Vienna c. You graunt also that he did communicate with the former ages and was of the same Religion with them which is allso cleere by the consent and iudgment of the Christian world in his tyme who beleeued that he and they were of the same Religion with the Church of the precedent age and had best meanes to know it The same Church and Religion in the tyme of Leo the greate was also vniuersall and this likewise out of his writings may be prooued The vniuersalitie I say of Leo his communion is knowne cleerly by his Epistles to the Bisshops of Italie Ie op v. Ie France Thessalonica Vienna Sicilie Campania Tuscia Alexandria Antioch Constantinople Ierusalem c. in a word it is included and to the world made knowne by the Councell of Chalcedon If you will ascend hiegher with this vniuersalitie goe vp to Syluesters tyme and his communion with all the Christian world you haue in the first Nicene Councell and Further I thinke you will not presse me though I could further name S. Paul witnessing of the Roman faith that it was renowned in the whole world 22. Hauing bene loÌ„ge in the former argumeÌ„t and the longer because I would see whether you could make the like in all respects for the vniuersalitie of your Church and doctrine Arg. 6 there curraÌ„t amoÌ„ge you I will now be shorter in the next which I will frame out of the CoÌ„fession of Protestants too not so much for their authoritie which I esteeme not as to stop your mouth and it shall be this Bright-maÌ„ in his Apocalyps saith that the Church Protestant was hidden from the tyme of Constantine to wit 1260. yeeres that then the supposed Protestancie went into the desert Bright in cap. 11. â—2 Apoc. Id. p. 577. Broc on Reuel fol. 110 12â— Nap. Reuel p. 68. See also p. 191. and that euer since Antichrist so he calls the Pope hath raigned Brocard saith also the church supposed ProtestaÌ„t was trodden downe and oppressed by the Papacie euen froÌ„ Syluesters tyme to those tymes viz. 1260. yeeres aÌ„d Napper saith Betwene the yeare of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian and Papisticall raigne began raigning vniuersally and without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260 yeeres the Pope and his clergie possessing the outward visible Church of Christians all that tyme. And for the supposed Protestant Church and doctrine he saith Gods true Church most certainely abode so longe latent Ours therefore by the confession of these Protestants was vniuersall longe before the tyme of Gregorie the greate I knowe that you obiect the Primacie to

haue bene confirmed to Bonifacius by Phocas But this will not hinder my argument for it is one thinge to declare and second an other thing to institute the institution of the Primacie you haue in the Gospell Maâ— ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ 18. Io. 21.18 S. Hierom. ep ad Dam Theod. ep ad Renat Presb Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. Touching the existeÌ„cie of our Religion in the tyme of Constantine See more in the Protestant Apol tract 2 c. â— Sect. 3. the acknowledgment you haue in Antiquitie as I will declare hereafter and the exercise before the tyme of Boniface is well knowne On this Rocke will I build my Church said our Sauiour who commended his flocke peculiarly to S. Peeter I quoth S. Ierom to Damasus then Pope Following none formost but Christ doe communicate with thy Holines that is with the chaire of Peeter Vppon that Rocke I knowe the Church was built And Theodoret a Grecian speaking of that See That holy Seate hath the gouerment of all the Churches in the world You heard before what S. Leo said of it and you knowe how he did exercise this power Only because your fellowes are woÌ„t to obiect a speach of S. Cregorie not content to take the interpretation of it from his owne mouth I put you heare in mind that he did exercise this power ouer all the Christian Churches in his tyme and this you haue noted by D. Sanders in his Monarchie Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. and not answered yet He shewes there I say out of S. Gregories owne writings how he did exercise the foresaid power ouer the Bysshops and Churches of Italie Sicilie Corsica Sardinia Africke Spaine Ireland England France Dalmatia Greece Corcyra and that the Patriarcks haue confessed Subiection to the Church of Rome Lastly wee haue the confession of your men here cited in this an gument for the generall obedience to the Pope euer since Constantine which is sufficient for this purpose howsoeuer the Grecians might some tymes beare themselues in some occasions of which I am to speake in an other place 23. A seuenth Arg. It is manifest by the scriptures aboue cited that the Catholique Church is perpetuall and cannot faile and Arg. 7 this by Scripture is meant of the visible Church whereof I haue giuen ample demoÌ„stration in the begining of this second Booke which I desire the reader to peruse and marke Now there is no Christian Church at all that hath bene petpetuall but this which I speake of Therefore this indiuiduall Church is the Catholique Church To See the truth of that I haue assumed let vs looke vpon the rest The Pagans come not in question because their Church is not Christian nor the Iewes for the same reason though they farre exceede you in this point of perpetuitie The Grecians they were in our communion the first thousand yeares and since haue bene neither was Grecisme beleeued allwaies or euer the faith of Nations and communion with you they haue refused Your Church and Religion hath not bene perpetuall as in the former booke wee haue seene to your griefe Another that can callenge there is not not the Aethiopian nor the Maronite nor any whatsoeuer The Roman hath euer beene and her communion euer bene vniuersall therefore this greate and ample Societie is the true Church of God 24. An eigth Argum. That is the Catholique Church whereuÌ„to come all NatioÌ„s aÌ„d out of which all Heretiques do goe But into the communion of that companie which I haue Arg. 8 named that is into the communion of the See of Rome and the companie of Christians communicating with it all Nations hetherto haue come and out of it all Heretiques haue gone Therefore this is and hath euer bene the Catholique Church The proposition is cleere by the promises related in the beginiÌ„g that all Nations should be conuerted to the Church and her gates be euer open day and night to receiue them c. 1. Is 60. S. Aug. de Sym. 6. l. 1. c. 5. and as for Heretiques it is well knowne that they are boughes lopped of the great vine and that that heresie is a corruption of the true faith The assumption you haue at large in Ecclesiasticall Histories and you denie not but in the Primitiue tyme this companie was the Church Baronius Spondan auctar Iarricius Magdeburg Osiander Pappuâ— See Prot. Apol. tr 2. c. 1. s 4. that Nations from Infidelitie were conuerted to it and that Heretikes all went out of the same companie Since vnto the same haue bene conuerted the Germanes Vandalls Polonians Danes Hungarians Noruegians Brasilians Indians and diuers others and to your companie or religion immediatelie from infidelitie no Nation at all Out of the same great companie haue gone all Heretickes since that tyme and among them those who in part were your predecessors Iconoclastes Berengarians Waldenses Albigenses Lollardes Hussites 25. Beare with me if I repeate the same againe Arg. 9 for a nienth argument The Romane See and other congregations in that communion were the Church or the Catholicke Congregation in the tyme of Saint Paul And the same congregation 300. yeares after was still the Catholicke Church and had the communion of the Christian world as you know by the Generall Councell of Nice Into it came SchythiaÌ„s Iberians Armenians Hunnes and others Out went the Marcionites Nouatians Manichees Arianes Betwixt the fourth and fift age was the CouÌ„cell of CalcedoÌ„ and in that tyme likewise the foresaid coÌ„munioÌ„ was the Church Catholique aÌ„d their communion was with the christian world as by that councell of calcedon aÌ„d the Epistles of Leo the great who was President of it all men knowe Into this communion came Scottes French and other Nations Out went Pelagians and Nestorians after whose coÌ„munion in the Aethiopians you seeme to thirst In the next ages followiÌ„g which were the sixt aÌ„d seaueÌ„th were the Generall assemblies at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople One in the tyme of Vigilius being the fifte Generall Councell The other in the tyme of Agatho which you haue in the ToÌ„es of Councelles with most ample subscriptioÌ„ of the Bysshops which were in theÌ„ and by these Generall councelles which did also receaue the former it is euideÌ„t that in those tymes also the coÌ„panie of Christians in coÌ„munioÌ„ with the See of Rome was the Catholicke Church aÌ„d that the communion of those Popes aÌ„d those CouÌ„celles was with the world of Christians Into it came the Pictes Gothes Barbarians and our Countrie Out were cast the Tritheites Monothelites and other such excrementes After those Councelles Followed others One at Nice in the tyme of Adrian the first Another at Constantinople Adrian the second being then Byshop of Rome By which Councelles it is cleere that the communion of the Roman See was then also generall and this companie the Church of God They did also receaue the former Councelles and noe communion was Generall in Christendome or continued by Vniuersall Succession but onelie this Into this companie came the Frisians Hassites Russians Out

manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that

of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those aÌ„nointed are in the Church they are a part aÌ„d the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctioÌ„ it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of teÌ„ptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of theÌ„ and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely aÌ„d whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie caÌ„ you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethreÌ„ that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questioÌ„ a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors aÌ„d Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things doÌ„ne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise aÌ„d sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But

had allwayes Gods Spirit in her hart and Gods word in her mouth which hath conuerted Nations condemned Heresies assembled Councelles maintained order administred Sacraments and bred Saincts To the Church described in the Scripture To the visible To the Catholique Church 119. It may be that your selfe by this tyme are wearie of your owne inuention to the end therefore I may giue you scope to interprete your selfe better then you haue done hetherto I will aske a question or two more and make and end Either it is sufficient to saluation to followe the instruction of the visible Church or no if it be not sufficient then God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for instruction for without a preacher men cannot beleeue as I haue tould you oft from S. Paul If it be sufficient then leaue vs to followe this instruction to be directed by this Church wee haue that wee looke for I haue prooued heretofore that the Church hath Gods words euer in her mouth and that she deliuereth true doctrine without errour fundamentall or other I demaund now whether the predestinate do beleeue this doctrine this religioÌ„ thus perpetuallie taught or not if they doe not they be not of the true Religion they be not the sheepe of Christ for his sheepe doe heare his voice Io. 10. they may be your predecessors they are not ours they are Saincts of your making but not Gods elect If they doe then this visible Church aÌ„d Gods predestinate are all of one ReligioÌ„ one faith one body mysticall they all make one Church Speake plainlie man the Religion which God maketh the Church to professe allwaies is it true or false if false how is it Gods instruction You haue profited sure exceedinglie by your Spirit if now you taxe God with false doctrine if it be true wee may followe it wee must followe it The predestinated people are they of this Religion thus professed or are they of an other if of an other Gal. 1. â— Cor. 16. I haue nothing to doe with them anathema anathema if they be of this Religion all is well 120. To conclud that the Church of God is one and visible and that the predestinate are in it hath bene the sense and faith of all the Catholique world who haue all hoped to be saued in this Church in the visible Church of God it hath bene the faith of all the auncient Fathers and Doctors of the Church who acknowledged themselues children of it and were directed by it it hath bene the faith of the Saincts and predestinate themselues who did here beleeue as wee doe and God hath by miracles and other wayes manifested their sanctitie vnto the world And finallie it is the sense of the Spirit of the Catholique Church which cannot erre in such a point as I haue prooued larglie and you in your grounds should confesse because the thing is fundamentall and therefore it is a signe of extraordinarie stupiditie or malice or both to stagger in it THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Two other arguments are answered 121. IF any of your arguments should escape vntouched you would bragge of their streingth and therefore I am glad I haue ouertaken other two before they gette out of my memorie The first is Whittak Rainolds That which may happeÌ„ to any one may happeÌ„ to all or to euerie one But to erre may happeÌ„ to any Church adde for ought you know for thus it did happeÌ„ to the Churches of Thiatira Corinth c. therefore it may happeÌ„ to euery one or to all aÌ„d so all at oÌ„ce may erre Thus you I haue some cause to thinke you haue a wide mouth suppose you caÌ„ thrust aÌ„ egge into it A clowne there might dispute in your forme aÌ„d moode thus That which may happeÌ„ to any one of the egges in your parish may happen to all or to euerie one but to be thrust into your mouth at once may happen to any one of those egges therefore it may happen to them all and then your mouth will be stopt Now if one mouthfull be not inough for your dinner you may fall next to the meate and eate it all euery bit for that which may happen to any bit may happeÌ„ to euery bit the clowne your Scholler would say and ofterwards at the same meale you might drinke all the drinke euery cupfull euery drop 122. Suppose all the men in England should cast the dice for a thousand pound with these conditioÌ„s that the first which threwe twelue with two dice should haue it and if none threwe twelue the monie should be yours To see faire play aÌ„d to doe you all the fauour wee can wee will suppose the dice to be iust aÌ„d no tricke vsed at all The first may throwe ames ace I suppose the least for your good but it is fiue to one he will not Yet admitt he doth It is fiue to one the second doth not yet admitt his cast be ames ace too for what chaÌ„ce might happen to the other might happen to him Thus I will run on till I come to twentie and surelie it is much that twentie one after another should haue the same cast and the dice exactlie iust It is not probable that it would hould on so to a hundred yet what might happen to any one might happen say you to euery one It is incredible it should goe on in the same chaÌ„ce to a thousand yet in your logicke this guggion must be swallowed after his fellowes But that it should run thorough them all it is not possible for then fortune would be constant and coÌ„tingencie would prooue to be a neeessity which no man will say who knowes what he saith yet this must downe your throate too for what may happen to any one may happen to euerie one that so in the end you may get to your selfe the thousand pound The like might happen if all the men that are in the world should cast the dice and should haue done so euer since dice were first inuented because what might happen to any one might as you say happen to euery one And when each had throwne he might die before you and coÌ„sequentlie all might doe so in your principles so you should be the onelie man a liue aÌ„d haue all their money too And thus much to let you see the weake forme of your argumeÌ„t which nothwithstaÌ„diÌ„g is one of the maine foundatioÌ„s where on your meÌ„ do build their doctrine of the fallibility of Gods Church 123. Now to the matter of the argument I answeare that allmighiie God is infinite and therfore none can hinder his designe or make frustrate his intention Wherfore since he hath decreed to keepe allwayes to the worlds end a Church on earth infallible in doctrine as I haue declared by the testimony of holy Scripture his prouidence will effect it and make it perseuere in what persons and what places he please Wee haue no reuelation thath the true faith shall perseuere allwayes in France or in

the stile and phrase of speach giues them no satisfaction at all For they so disesteeme it in this respect peculiarlie that in regard of the stile and matter they professe themselues moued to beleeue the contrarie and to put it out of the number of Canonicall bookes If you answere that by the helpe of the Spiritte you discerne it you moue them not for they claime as great an interest as full a participation of the Spirit as your selues aÌ„d therefore you moue not theÌ„ to beleeue as you do But suppose if you will that all Antiquitie stoode on your side what could this preuaile to moue a Lutheran to beleeue the matter or to coÌ„firme your disciples who stagger at your want of proofe what could this auaile I say seeing that it is agreed amoÌ„gst you that the Church that all the Fathers that all men since the Apostles might haue aggreed in an errour 27. According to the grounds of our Religion euerie Catholique can answere easilie that whatsoeuer by the Church of God is receaued for diuine Scripture is infalliblie such because the Church is directed by Gods All-seeing Spirit which can discerne it well And suppose the Catholique were vnlearned aÌ„d that all of you together both LutheraÌ„s and Caluinists should preteÌ„d that in the Bookes there wanted the Spirit of truth aÌ„d seeke to maintaine this with a shewe of oppositioÌ„ either within it selfe or to some other part of Scripture or to reason which thing you doe manie times pretend as Iulian and Porphyrie and others haue done before he would answere you all without difficultie by recourse to the diuine Assistance in the Church which he takes for a principle of Christian Religion beleeued heretofore by the whole Christian world and warranted by God himselfe in cleere termes and would say that the knowledge of the Church thus assisted is more certaine then the contrarie pretense of any aduerse part whatsoeuer and she more able to espie contradiction errour or opposition theÌ„ any other is in regard of the holie Spirit who directeth her and with an infinite vnderstanding lookes earnestlie vppon All. In vertue of which assistance she hath maintained scripture against Heathens and Apostataes and misbeleeuing Iewes aÌ„d Heretiques hetherto and still doth and will doe Further more a Catholike doth not thinke it necessarie that the booke which he beleeueth to be Scripture hath beene euer vniuersallie by the Church esteemed so He knowes it is sufficient if the Catholicke Church hath at any time beleeued it For one of the Principles of our ReligioÌ„ is that the Catholike Church cannot erre at all in matter of faith it cannot erre in any age in any tyme. And this principle hath euer bene beleeued by Catholiks Moreouer that which at any tyme she beleeueth hath beÌ„ infolded in her faith at other times and so virtuallie beleeued euer and by all 29. Now to your opposition Whereas you say that of late onelie some Books haue beene taken into the canon I answere first that such Bookes as your selues doe receaue for canonicall were not all at once vniuersallie receaued in the Church but were acknowledged by degrees S. Hieron de viris illustribus in Paulo Iacobo Petro IoaÌ„ne in Ep. ad Dardan itemque in Prolog So much you knowe by those I haue allreadie named and S. Hierom can tell you more Yet are these allso by your owne confession the word of God and were such in themselues before it was generallie knowne vnto the world As our Sauiour was the naturall Sonne of God and his increated Word before the world did knowe or beleeue him so to be The reason is because mans knowledge is later then the veritie and the more obscure the thing is the longer he is ordinarilie before he can find it out Secondlie it is not so late as you thinke since these Bookes were in the Church esteemed Cit. Bellarm de Verbo Dei l. 1. Vide Baron an 415 August Ep 235. de doct Chr. l. 2. c. 8. Innocent Ep. 3. ad Exuper c. 7. Can. SaÌ„cta Rom d. 15. Ierem. 36. canonicall and diuine though not so generallie as I noted before for you finde them cited for such in the Fathers writings verie oft and in the councell of carthage held in the tyme of Boniface twelue hundred yeares agoe you haue a Catalogue of them all the verie same which you finde now deliuered by the couÌ„cell of Trent sauing onlie that Baruch which the auncient Fathers did acknowledge allso for diuine is after the manner of those tymes comprized with Ieremie whose Secretarie you know he was I adde thirdlie that whereas S. Augustine who subscribed to the foresaid councell doth prescribe a rule for yonge Deuines to finde which Scripture is of greatest authoritie bidding them preferre that which all Churches doe receaue before that which is receaued onlie by some Churches or some part wee now seeing the foresaid canon receaued at length by the whole Church of God and this declared in a Generall Councell must and doe yeauen by S. Augustines rule receaue it all as the word of God and consequentlie of one and the same Authoritie all there being no surer ground of mans faith in such a case then is the Spirit of God in the Church The like I answere them allso who runne to the Iewes canon for the Spirit of the christian Church is no lesse able to discerne a veritie then they were and therefore if the christian Church at anie tyme declare a Booke to be diuine though the Iewes knewe it not wee beleeue it and must For the holie Ghost cannot erre The Iewes knewe not all that God hath taught his Church 30. The second exception is vnreasonable if you consider well what is done and the reason of it All Schollers as you knowe doe noe not addict their studies to the toÌ„gues the Hebrewe is so obscure that fewe doe attaine vnto anie reasonable knowledge of it and none at all in these later times especiallie to the comprehension of the tongue but by helpe of Dictionaries compiled by such as come short of the thing it selfe Of the ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ or of moderne Iewes not equall to the learned of the tyme wherein the Bookes were first written do endeuour what they can This experience hath taught vs Elias ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ in Habâ—â—â— Vide Genebrard in Psal 104. Serrar Prol. Bibl. c. 19. q. 6. Aliquoties dixi plurima vocabula esse quorum significatio ipsis etiam Hebraeis ignota est Luth. in Gen. c. 34 it is euident also in the continuation and transfusion of all languages to posteritie and Rabbines themselues doe confesse it In regard therefore that Schollers commonlie vnderstand not Hebrewe it hath euer beene thought conuenieÌ„t the Scripture should be translated into such a language as generallie they doe knowe which is Latine In the primitiue Church this was practised and among you it is allowed allso in so much that your predecessors Luther Caluin Beza Iunius and others

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