man conclude the point out of them and we will yeeld if wee shew not a reasonable cause to the contrarie Secondly I adde fuâ—thâ—r that if it were granted that there were some such traditiâ—…s â—â—et as Austin saith of the first place who can say these or those be they For the most part of the traditions that are now thrust vpon the Church by you Papists are in comparison but new and very trifles or meere superstitious speaker D. B. P. Our Sauiour said being at the point of his passion That he had manie things to say vnto his Apostles but they could not as then beare them Our Sauiour after his resurrection appeared often vnto his Disciples speaking vvith them of the kingdome of God of vvhich little is vvritten in any of the Euangelists I commend you brethren that you remember me in all things and keepe the Traditions euen as I haue deliuered them to you speaker A. W. Now for the particulars the first is answered alreadie the second makes a bad consequence Christ spake often with his Disciples of the kingdome of God of which little is written in the Euangelists therfore there are some points necessarie to saluation not recorded in Scripture His talke with them might be for exhortation and consolation especially Who can say whatsoeuer it were that it is not written in the Epistles By traditions Ambrose vnderstands in the 2. Thessal nothing but the Gospell in that place to the Corinthians the Apostle seemes in all likelihood to speake of ceremonies or circumstances in their carriage about Gods seruice which neither is matter of saluation nor to be alwaies alike in all places and at al times So doth Ambrose vnderstand him speaker D. B. P. O Timothy keepe the depositum that is that vvhich I deliuered thee to keepe Hold fast by the holy Ghost the good things committed vnto thee to 〈◊〉 vvhich vvas as S. Chrysostom and Thesphilact expound the true doctrine of Christ the true sense of holy Scriptures the right admini words be not set downe in Scripture yet the matter is if not expresly which is not needfull yet by necessarie consequence as it may euidently appeare by the Councill and Fathers wherein and by whom the contrarie to those opinions is condemned and confuted The first point is implied necessarily in all those places by which our Sauiour is prooued to be true God that is the same God with his Father which you shall finde in Athanasius writings and the first Councill of Nice The second of the holy Ghosts proceedings from the Sonne as well as from the Father is prooued by Thomas out of the Scripture and by other against the Greeke Church The third beside that place of Iohn is necessarily concluded since there can be but one God out of the texts that prooue euery one of them seuerally to be God and by that of Matthew The fourth is prooued out of Scripture by the first Councill of Ephesus against Nestorius so that for these points we neede no traditions speaker W. P. Obiect VI. Sundrie places of Scripture be doubtfull and euery religion hath his seuerall exposition of them as the Papists haue theirs and the Protestants theirs Now then seeing there can be but one truth when question is of the interpretation of Scripture recourse must be had to the tradition of the Church that the true sense may be determined and the question ended Ans. It is not so but in doubtfull places Scripture it selfe is sufficient to declare his owne meaning first by the analogie of faith which is the summe of religion gathered out of the clearest places of Scripture secondly by the circumstances of the place and the nature and signification of the wordes thirdly by conference of place with place By these and like helps contained in Scripture wee may iudge which is the truest meaning of any place Scripture it selfe is the text and the best glosse And the Scripture is falsly tearmed the matter of strife it beeing not so of it selfe but by the abuse of man And thus much for our consent concerning Traditions wherein we must not be wauering but steadfast because notwithstanding our renouncing of Poperie yet Popish inclinations and dispositions bee rife among vs. Our common people maruelouslie affect humane traditions yea mans nature is inclined more to bee pleased with them then with the word of God The feast of the natiuitie of our Sauiour Christ is onely a custome and tradition of the Church and yet men are commonly more carefull to keepe it then the Lords day the keeping whereof stands by the morall law Positiue lawes are not sufficient to restraine vs from buying and selling on the Sabbath yet within the twelue daies no man keepes market Againe see the truth of this in our affection to the ministerie of the word let the Preacher alleage Peter and Paul the people count it but common stuffe such as any man can bring but let men come and alleadge Ambrose Austin and the rest of the fathers oh he is the man hee is alone for them Againe let any man bee in danger any way and straight hee sendeth to the wise man or wizzard Gods worde is not sufficient to comfort and direct him All this argues that Poperie denied with the mouth abides still in the heart and therefore wee must learne to reuerence the written word by ascribing vnto it all manner of perfection speaker D. B. P. The sixt and last reason for Traditions Sundry places of holy Scriptures be hard to be vnderstood others doubtfull whether they must be taken literally or figuratiuely If then it be put to euery Christian to take his owne exposition euery seuerall sect will coyne interpretations in fauour of their owne opinions and so shall the word of God ordained only to teach vs the truth be abused and made an Instrument to confirme all errors To auoid which inconuenience considerate men haue recourse vnto the Traditions and auncient Records of the Primitiue Church receiued from the Apostles and deliuered to the posteritie as the true copies of Gods word see the true Exposition and sense of it and thereby consute and reiect all priuate and new glosses which agree not with those ancient and holy Commentaries So that for the vnderstanding of both difficult and doubtfull texts of Scripture Traditions are most necessary M. Perkins his answere is that there is no such need of them but in doubtfull places the Scripture it selfe is the best glosse If these be obserued first the analogie of faith which is the summe of religion gathered out of the cleerest places Secondly the circumstance of the place and the nature and signification of the words Thirdly the conference of place with place and concludeth that the Scripture is falsely tearmed the matter of strife it being not so of it selfe but by the abuse of man speaker A. W. First this reason can conclude nothing against our
substance or that they may be reunited BEfore I am to deliuer my opinion concerning this point I had neede to be enformed what this Author meaneth by these words our Religion For there being great diuersities of pretended Religions currant in the world all contrary to the Church of Rome how can I certainlie know whether of them hâ— professeth Wherefore good Sir may it please you to declare what Religion you vnderstand when you say our Religion Is it that which Martin Luther a licentious Fryer first preached in Germany or rather that which the martiall Minister Zwinglius contended with sword and shield to set vp in Switzerland or perhaps that which John Caluin by sedition wrought into Geneua expelling the lawfull Magistrate thence and by the ayde of Beza a dissolute turnecoate spread into many corners of France Or if by your Religion you meane only to comprehend the Religion now practised in England yet are you farther to shewe whether you vnderstand that established by the State or the other more refined as it is thought by many and embraced by them who are called Puritanes for of their leauen sauoureth that position of yours That the article of Christs descent into bell crept into the Creede by negligence and some other such like in this booke These principall diuisions of the new Gospell to omit sundrie sub-diuisions being famous and receiued of diuers in England according to each mans phantasie it is meete you expresse whether of them you speake of that it may be dulie considered how the Romane Religion and it agree and what vnion may be made betweene them speaker A. W. Is this no superfluitie of words What reasonable man can doubt that Master Perkins by our religion meanes as you say afterward the religion now professed in England For your word practised is too skant for doctrine some points whereof fall not into practise If it be contrarie to the Church of Rome it is easily answered without any such inquirie that contraries cannot be vnited If difference in some points make a diuers religion how many kindes are there amongst you Papists let the Franciscans and Dominicans goe with all the rest of former times what say you to these maine points Iustification in Pighius Predestination in Bellarmine Free will in Bartholomew Camerarius three pillers of your Church The difference betwixt Protestants and Puritanes as you call them is not in any essentiall point of faith but in matters of outward gouernment and ceremonies speaker W. P. And this shall appeare if we doe but a little consider how they of the Romane Church haue rased the foundation For though in words they honour Christ yet in deede they turne him to a Pseudo-Christ and an Idoll of their owne braine speaker D. B. P. Now if you meane the hotchpotâ—h and confusion of all these new Religions together as by the opposition here vnto the Church of Rome and by the artiâ—les following may be gathered then I am cleere for you in this that there can be no more concord betweene these two Religions then there is betweene light and darknes faith and insidelâ—tie Christ and Beliall Notwithstanding I thinke that the reason by you produced to proue the impossibilitie of this vnion is of no value to â—it that they of the Romane Church â—aue razed the foundation for though in vvords they honour Christ yet indeede they turne him into a Pseudochrist and an â—doll of their 〈◊〉 braine A very sufficient cause no doubt of eternall breach and diuision if it could be verisied But how proue you that we Romane Catholikes who beleeue Iesus Christ to be perfect God and perfect Man and the onely Redeemer of Mankinde make him a false Christ and an Idoll or before you goe about to proue it tell me I pray you how this can well stand with your owne definition of a reformed Catholike in your Preface There you affirme him to be a Catholike reformed to your liking that holdeth the same necessarie heads of Religion vvith the Romane Church Now can there be any more necessarie head of Religion than to haue a right faith in Christ can any other foundation be laid besides Iesus Christ If then your reformed Catholike must agree with the Romane Church in neâ—essarie heads of Religion as you hold he must either the Romane Church â—…th not the foundation and maketh not Christ a Pseudochrist as you say here or else you teach your disâ—iples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of Religion with it speaker A. W. It is no confusion to take from seuerall men seuerall opinions agreeing with the word of God Luther hauing been a long time kept in the darknes of Pâ—…pcrie could not by and by discerne the truth in all points Was not your superstition both for doctrine and ceremonics patcht vp peece by peece as it could procure allowance from time to time Yea was not the truth of Religion made manifest by little and little in the Church as God gaue learned men occasion of studie and a blessing in their studie against the poyson of Heretikes Such hath been and such alwaies will be the course of the Gospell that truth will be more and more knowne as there is more opposition against it and as men bestow more paines in reading praying and studying To denie the reason or argument is to denie the consequence not the antecedent but you grant the consequence viz. That razing the foundation and turning Christ into a Pseudochrist is a sufficient cause of eternall breach onely you denie the antecedent that the Church of Rome doth so At the least as well as you prooue that the Church of England holding the same opinions of Christ haue no faith no religion no Church no Christ c. But let vs see how you disprooue the antecedent If your reformed Catholike say you must agree with the Romane Church in many heads of religion either the Romane Church razeth not the foundation or else you teach your disciples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of religion with it But he must agree with it in many heads of religion Therfore either the Romane Church razeth not the foundation or you teach your disciples very pernitiously to hold the same necessarie heads of religion with it I denie the consequence of your proposition because by paring of the errors which Master Perkins requires he shall keepe himselfe from razing the foundation though he hold the same necessary heads for example he must holde with you that a true ChristiaÌ„ must haue a right faith in Christ but he must reiect the faith you professe as not right Again he must hold that no other foundation can be laid but Iesus Christ not that you lay him aright for the foundation speaker W. P. They call him our Lord but with this condition that the Seruant of Seruants of this Lord may change and adde to his commaundements hauing so great a power that he
and most holy Fathers doe teach concerning ioyning with the Church and Pope of Rome from whose societie Protestants labour tooth and nayle to withdraw vs. And because of this we must treate more amply in the question of supremacie I will vse here their authoritie only whom M. Perkins citeth against vs. S. Bernard is cited already S. Ireneus Scholler of S. Polycarpe and he of S. Iohn the Euangelist of the Church of Rome writeth thus To this Church by reason of her more mightie principalitie it is necessary that euery Church that is the saithfull on all sides to condescend and agree in and by which alwaies the tradition of the Aposiles hath been preserued of them that be round about her Saint Jerome writing to Damasus Pope of Rome saith I following none as chiefest but Christ doe in participation ioyne with thy blessednesse that is with the chayre of Peter I know the Church to be builded vpon that Rocke VVhosoeuer doth eate the Paschall Lambe out of this house is a prophane fellovv he that is not found vvithin the Arke of Noe shall when the floudes arise perish And a litle after knovv not Vitalis I refuse Meletius I take no notice of Paulinus he that gathereth not vvith thee scattereth that is he that is not vvith Christ is vvith Antichrist Marke and embrace this most learned Doctors iudgement of ioyning vvith the See of Rome in all doubtfull questions he vvould not trust to his ovvne vvit and skill vvhich vvere singular nor thought it safe to relie vpon his learned and vvise neighbours he durst not set vp his rest vvith his ovvne Bishop Paulinus vvho vvas a man of no meane marke but the Patriarke of Antioch but made his assured stay vpon the See of Rome as vpon an vnmoueable Rocke vvith vvhich saith he if vve doe not communicate in faith and Sacraments vve are but profane men voide of all Religion In a vvord vve belong not to Christ but be of Antichrists traine See hovv flat contrarie this most holy ancient Father is to M. Perkins M. Perkins vvould make vs of Antichrists band because vve cleaue vnto the Bishop of Rome Whereas Saint Hierome holdeth all to appertaine to Antichrist who be not fast lincked in matters of Religion with the Pope and See of Rome And so to conclude with this point euerie true Catholike must say with Saint Ambrose I desire in all things to follovv the Church of Rome And thus much of his Prologue speaker A. W. It is a weake fortifying of Popish doctrine to alleage a few sentences written one thousand or more yeeres since in approbation of the Church of Rome as it was then Irenaeus Hierome Ambrose would haue all men ioyne with the Church of Rome which florished in their daies therefore no man may separate from it in these our daies Who sees not the feeblenes of this consequence And yet this is all the force that can be in the reason till they haue prooued that the Church of Rome either was then or is not now the Church of Antichrist If that principalitie Irenaeus speaks of were in the Church of Rome by any right of authoritie from God how should the same Irenaeus be excused who reprooues Victor B. of Rome for taking vpon him to excommunicate some of the Easterne Churches about obseruing of Easter If it be in respect of the truth which then florished at Rome no doubt all men must cleaue vnto it as farre as it cleaues to the truth of God Hierome a Romane and at that time a yong man liuing in Syria being pressed by an Arian Bishop to allow by subscription that which might tend to the countenancing of Arianisme writes to Damasus his owne Bishop for his aduice in the matter But that he did not in respect of his place as if hee could not erre because he was Bishop of Rome for Liberius the very next Bishop before Damasus by Hieroms owne confession had subscribed to Arianisme but in regard of his iudgement which was sound against that heresie so that whosoeuer in that question gathered not with him scattered and held with Antichrist against Christ. Those all things that Ambrose speaks of are according to the place alleaged by you to be restrained to the Liturgie and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome Wherein though Ambrose professe himselfe desirous to follow the Church note by the way that the Church of Rome is taken as a particular Diocesan Church such as the Church of Millan also was at that time and not as the vniuersall Catholike Church yet he did not so follow it because reason led him another way his words are these In all things I desire to follow the Romane Church but yet we also being men haue vnderstanding therefore that which is otherwhere better obserued we also rightly keepe We follow the Apostle Peter himselfe we sticke vnto his deuotion c. Out of which speech of Ambrose these points are to be obserued First that the vnderstanding of Christian men is to direct them wherein they are to follow the Church of Rome wherein to leaue it Secondly that some other Churches might and did better obserue diuers things than the Church of Rome did Thirdly that the Church of Rome did not obserue that which the Apostle Peter at least in Ambrose his iudgement had deuoutly performed Thus we see what helpe there is in the ancient writers to free the Pope and Church of Rome that now are from being the very Antichrist foretold of in the Reuelation speaker W. P. Now touching the dutie of separation I meane to speake at large not standing so much to prooue the same because it is euident by the text as to shew the manner and measure of making this separation and therein I will handle two things First how far forth we may ioyne with them in the matter of religion secondly how far forth and wherein we must dissent and depart from them And for this cause I meane to make choice of certaine points of religion and to speake of them in as good order as I can shewing in each of them our consent and difference and the rather because some harpe much vpon this string that a Vnion may be made of our two religions and that we differ not in substance but in points of circumstance speaker D. B. P. Afterward he taketh vpon him to prescribe and shew vs how far forth we may ioyne with the Church of Rome by proposing many points in controuersie betweene vs and them and in each shewing in what points we consent togither and in what we differ I meane by Gods grace to follow him step by step although he hath made many a disorderly one aswell to discouer his deceits and to disproue their errors as also to establish the Catholike Doctrine the which I will endeuour to performe by the helpe of God with all simplicitie of language and with as much breuity as
A DEFENCE OF M. PERKINS BOOKE CALLED A REFORMED CATHOLIKE Against the cauils of a Popish writer one D. B. P. or W. B. in his deformed Reformation By Antony Wotton AT LONDON Imprinted by FELIX KYNGSTON for Cuthbert Burby and are to be sold at his shop in Paules Church-yard at the signe of the Swan 1606. THE PRINCIPAL POINS HANDLED IN THIS BOOKE 1. Of Antichrist pag. 41. 2. Of Freewill pag. 64. 3. Of Originall sinne pag. 95. 4. Of the certaintie of saluation pag. 124. 5. Of Iustification pag. 163. 6. Of inherent iustice pag. 184. 7. Of iustifying faith what it is pag. 195. 8. How faith iustifieth pag. 206. 9. That faith alone iustifieth pag. 212. 10. Of good workes how farre forth they are required to iustification pag. 239. 11. Whether it be possible for a man that is iustified to fulfill the law of God pag. 258. 12. Whether good workes be stained with sinne pag. 265. 13. Whether faith may be without charitie pag. 277. 14. Whether faith may be without good workes pag. 285. 15. Of merits pag. 287. 16. Of satisfaction pag. 344. 17. Of Traditions pag. 399. 18. Of vowes pag. 469. 19. Of the vow of single life pag. 487. 20. Of wilfull pouerty pag. 508. 21. Of regular obedience pag. 522. 22. Of Images pag. 524. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE ROBERT EARLE OF SALISBVRIE VICOVNT Cranborne Baron of Essingdon Principall Secretarie to his Maiestie Master of the Court of Wards and Liueries one of his Highnesse most Honourable Priuie Councell and Chancellor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge RIght Honourable it hath pleased God to vouchsafe your Lordship no small honour in the profession of Christianity that you haue not onely beleeued the truth of the Gospell but also are made partaker of that glorie of his children to suffer for it To you it is giuen saith the Apostle to the Philippians for Christ that not onely you should beleeue in him but also suffer for his sake Giuen as if it were a speciall fauour which no man attaines to but they only to whom it is granted by priuiledge from God To you it is giuen saith our Sauiour to know the secrets of the kingdome of heauen And in another place No man can come vnto me except it bee giuen him of my Father This gift the Lord hath bestowed vpon your Honour that they which are enemies to him should be persecutors of you euen to the death if it lay in their power for his quarrell But the gratious prouidence of God hath manifestly shewed it selfe in this whole action on your Lordships behalfe in that not only you are still preserued in despight of them but also that you hold on that noble and Christian resolution to prouide for the sasctie of Religion his Maiesties person and estate with the hazard of your owne life regarding more what your Lordship ought to doe in dutie to God and your Soueraigne then what you may suffer by men for so doing Now on their part who can say whether their malice or their follie is the greater when I consider the height of their hatred that reacheth euen to the taking away of life which is in Gods hands me thinkes I am not able to looke beyond it But when I remember their desperate resoluing to commit such a murther so openly and their extreame indiscretion in acquainting your Lordship with their intendment it seemes to me that the lightnes of their follie exceeds the waight of their malice So that they giue all men iust occasion to suspect that God hath giuen them ouer into a reprobate sense as to destroy their soules by intending such a bloody sinne so to cast away their liues also by attempting it with so great follie But leauing them to the mercie and iustice of God for repentance or confusion giue me leaue Right Honourable to put your Lordship in minde of that which I make no doubt but you know and thinke on viz. That the Lord God hauing taken your person estate and honour into his protection against these and such like conspiracies looketh for continuance and increase of zeale and care in your Lordship for the securing as much as may be in your power of his holy religion and his worthie Lieutenant our gratious Soueraignes person and dignitie Now the knowledge of danger being a good helpe to the auoyding of it The Lord himselfe seemes to haue taken halfe the care alreadie in discouering those that haue bin are and will be the continuall practisers of his Maiesties ruine I were more than conceited and foolish if I could but thinke my selfe either able or fit to aduise your Lordship in matters of this nature Yet let me humbly entreate your Honour to vouchsafe the reading of that which in my poore thoughts I haue apprehended That the safetie of Princes dependeth vpon the good pleasure of God it is out of all question especially in their account who aduisedly and thankfully remember the late wonderfull and gratious deliuerance neuer to be forgotten Neither can it be doubted but it is Gods good pleasure to preserue them as long as they haue care to walke in obedience to him especially in prouiding for his glorie by maintaining and aduancing the true religion of Iesus Christ. So then the safetie of religion is the securitie of the Prince and the decay of Gods true seruice the forerunner of the Kings destruction As this is true in generall concerning all Kings and Gouernours so hath it an especiall euidence of truth in his Maiesties particular For it is apparant to euery man that the Papists quarrell to his Maiestie is not for hatred of his person but of his religion And therefore so farre foorth will they plot against the former as they can see likelihood of aâ—chieuing the latter His danger groweth by their hope and their despaire of bringing in Popish idolatrie must needs be the securitie of his life and state Are wee then desirous to rid his Maiestie of this danger and the whole state of this feare we see the meanes of accomplishing that desire to bee no other than to prouide that true religion may grow and flourish and Popish idolatrie fade and wither For neither may wee looke for any blessing from God on the Common-wealth if he be continually dishonoured amongst vs by the encrease of Popish heresie nor reasonably promise our selues any end of treacherous and bloodie enterprises as long as Papists conceiue hope of preuailing for Antichrist by such attempts If their number daily encrease how should their hope lessen And how is it possible to keepe it from growing if thousands in this kingdome remaining in their ignorance be left as pray to seducing Priests and Iesuits The conclusion is that if there be not some religious and wise care taken as to instruct the people in the knowledge of Gods truth which is the principall so to ferrit out those lurking Serpents that breathe Idolatrie and treason into the hearts of his Maiesties people and
his Maiesties gouernment with persecution and that of mens studies with persecuting heauily the sincere professors of the onely true Catholike faith with molesting grieuously great numbers of most ciuill biects with mingling his gouernment with bitter stormes of persecution to threaten him with feare of rebellion or treason Indeede I must needes say you vnfold your selfe perhaps more than you would For whereas your desire is to lie hid vnder the cloake of commending his Maiestie for exceeding mildnes clemencie affabilitie c. before you are aware the truth of your opinion breakes out and bewraies it selfe to all the world speaker D. B. P. Finally for a proofe of my sinceritie affection and dutifull loue towards your Maiestie this may I iustly say that in time of vncertaine fortune when assured friends are most certainely tried I both suffered disgrace and hinderance for it being stiled in Print A Scotist in faction therein farther employing my pen in Atvvo-solde discourse which I hope hath been presented to the view of your Maiestie the one containing a defence of your Highnes honour the other of your title and interest of the Crowne of England And if then my zeale and loue of truth and obligation to your Maiestie drew me out of the compasse of mine owne profession to treate of law courses I trust your benigne Grace will now licence me out of the same fountaine of â—â—ruencie and like zeale vnto Gods tâ—uth no lesse respecting your Maiesties eternall honour and heauenly inheritance something to say in matters of diuinitie hauing been the best part of my studie for more then thrise seuer yeares speaker A. W. The late quarrels betwixt the professed and secret traitors the Iesuites and Priests haue made all men of any iudgement able to discerne what disgraces and hinderances either part hath by other when both parts can so easily and suddenly agree with the good liking of your lay-Papists The best seruice you doe his Maiestie in this book is that you confesse so plainly that both his honour and his title to the Crowne of England were not onely called into question but iniured and denied by your Popish saction And yet this intelligence you giue him is no newes for it was discouered before out of a letter of Parsons in the Iesuites defence against the Secular Priests speaker D. B. P. Whereinto I may conueniently enter with that golden sentence with which your Maiestie began the Conference holden in Iaâ—…y last betweene certaine of your â—…cts about some controueâ—sie 〈◊〉 Râ—ligion A Ioue principium conformable to that in holy writ I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aâ—d Omega that is The begianing and the end saith our Lord And â—…ying it vnto Princes I may be bolde to say that nothing is more expedient and necessarie for Kings nothing more honourable and of beâ—… assurance for their estate then that in the very beginning of their â—aâ—gne they take especiall oâ—der that the supreaâ—ne and most puâ—ssaâ—t Mâ—narch of heauen and earth be purely and vprightly serued aswell in their owne exemplar liues as throughout their Dominions For of Almighty God his meere bouncde and great grace they receiue and holde their Dâ—adems and â—…cely Seepâ—ers and cannot possesse and enioy them their mighty Forces and most prudent Counsailes notwithstanding one day longer then during his dâ—…e will and pleasure Which that wise King witnesseth speaking in the person of Gods wisedome Per me Reges regnant By me Kings doe raigne And Nabuchodonozer sometime King of Babilon was turned out to grase with beasts for seuen yeeres and made to know and confesse that the highest doth commaâ—…d ouer the kingdomes of men and disposeth of them as pleaseth his dâ—uine wisedome But I neede not stand vpon this poynt being to well knowne and duely confessed by your Maâ—esâ—â—e speaker A. W. His Maiestie wisely and fitly applied the saying of the Poet to signifie that whatsoeuer we vndertake must be begun in the name of God with desire and trust of his blessing But what conformitie hath that of Christ either with the Poets sentence or his Maiesties purpose or your owne application Our Sauiour truly professes of himselfe that he is Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending which is which was and which is to come the first and the last that is eternall Neither the Poet nor the King our of the Pâ—â—t intend to speake any thing of Gods eternitie Neither can you reasonably apply that speech of our Sauiour to secure Princes in their estate if they begin their gouernment with Prouiding for obedience to God by true religion But how little agreement there is betwixt Christs speech and the Poets it may easily appeare by this that if his Maiestie in stead of Abs loue Principiuâ— should haue said I am Alpha and Omega or Christ is Alpha and Omega no man could haue vnderstood his meaning by his words speaker D. B. P. But â—â—thence there be in this our most miserable age great diuersities of Religions and but one onely wherewith God is truely serued and pleased as saith the Apostle One body one Spirit as you are called into one hope of your vocation one Lord one Faith one Baptisme My most humble suite and supplication to your high Maiestie is that you to your eternall good will imbraâ—e maintaine and set forth that onely true Catholike and Apostolike faith wherein all your most royall progenitors liued and died or if you cannot be wonne so soone to alter that Religion in which it hath been your misfortune to haue been bred and brought vp That then in the meane season you will not so heauily persecute the sincere professors of the other speaker A. W. It is an easie matter to perswade his Maiestie to maintaine and set foorth the onely true Catholike and Apostolike faith that is to doe that he doth alreadie But the Romane religion hath neuer an one of these properties as it will appeare in the suruay of your reformation Diuers of his Maiesties progenitors liued and died in the profession of true religion many yeeres before a number of your Popish heresies were hatcht Neither doth hee now maintainc it because by Gods speciall prouidence he hath been brought vp in it but for that as it appeares in the â— Confession of Scotland after long and due examination his Maiestie is thoroughly resolued in the truth by the word and spirit of God Who would thinke that hee which a little before iustlie commended his Maiestie for exceeding clemencie mildnes louingnes and affablenes should now challenge him for persecuting heauily the sincere professors of the onely true Catholike and Apostolike faith speaker D. B. P. Very many vrgent and forâ—ible reasons might be produced in fauour and deâ—eâ—ce of the Catholike Romane Religion whereof diuers haue bin in most learned treatises tendered to your Maiestie already Wherefore I will onely touch three two of them chosen out of the subiect of this booke The third selected from a sentence of
purple Harlot in that place is signified as shall be proued presentlie the Romane Empire as then it was the slaue of Idols and with most bloodie slaughter persecuting Christs Saints Those of the Church of Rome being as nearest vnto it so most subiect to that sacrilegious boucherie Wherefore that voice which S. Iohn heard say Goe out of her my people that you be not partakers of her sinnes c. can haue none other meaning then that all they who desire to be Gods people must separate themselues in faith and manners from them who hate and persecute the Romane Church as did then the Heathen Emperours and now doe all Heretikes Vnlesse they will be partakers of their sinnes and consequentlie of their plagues This shall yet appeare more plainelie in the examination of this Chapter Where I will deale friendly with my aduersarie and aduantage him all thaâ— I can that all being giuen him which is any way probable it may appeare more euidentlie how little he hath to any purpose out of this place of the Apocalypse whereof all Protestants vaunt and bragge so much both in their bookes and pulpits Well then I will admitte that in the 17. and 18. Chapters of the Reuel by the whoore of Babylon is vnderstood the Romane state and regiment which in lawfull disputations they are not able to proue the most iudicious Doctor S. Augustine and diuerse others of the auncient Fathers with the learned troupe of later Interpreters expounding it of the whole corps and societie of the wicked And as for the 7. hâ—llâ—s on the which they lay their foundation they are not to be taken literallie The Angell of God in the verie text it selfe interpreting the 7. heads of the beast to be aswell 7. Kings as 7. hilles But this notwithstanding to helpe you forvvaid I vvill graunt it you because some good vvriters haue so taken it And therefore omitte as imperrinent that vvhich you say in proofe of it What can you inferre hereupon Many that the Romane Church is that vvhoore of Babylon fayre and soft good Sir hovv proue you that thus The vvhoore of Babylon is a state of the Romane regment ergo the Romane Church is the vvhoore of Babylon What some of arguing call you me this By the like sophistication you may proue that Româ—…s and Râ—…s vvere the purple Harlot vvhich to affinne vvere ridiculous or vvhich is impious that the most Christian Empe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and â—â—codosius vvere the vvhâ—ore of Babilon because thes held also the state of the Romane Empire and regiment to make short the seeble force of this reason lyeth in this that they vvho hoâ—…eth the state and gouerne in the same Kingdome must needs be of like affection in Religion vvhich if it vvere necessarie then did Queene Mary of blessed memorie and her sister Eâ—zabeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 same nundes tovvards the true Catholike â—ath because they 〈◊〉 in the same chane of estate and ruled in the same Kingdome See I pray you vvhat a shamefull cauâ—… this is to rase such 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A simple Logician vvould blush to argue in the parâ—…s so loose and yet they that take vpon them to controule the learnedst in the vvorld often fall into such open tallacies We desire no fauour of you but that you would acknowledge the truth when you cannot reasonably gainsay it What we can prooue you shall see by and by in the meane while your reason is naught For what though S. Austin and diuers other ancient writers with the learned troupe of your Popish interpreters doe so expound it doth it follow thereupon that in lawfull disputation the contrarie cannot be proued Could not they erre May not some other man see that which they perceiued not But what if wee shall match you in number and antiquitie of writers for our exposition First Hierome as you acknowledge afterward makes for vs and not for you so by your confession doth Tertullian but what name I seuerall men The Greeke Scholiast tels vs that diuers Interpreters by the harlot vnderstood old Rome and he that so thinks in his iudgement erres not though saith he it may be vnderstood of new Rome or the time of Antichrists comming Yea Austin himselfe grants that Rome in Greeke and Latin writers is as it were a second Babylon and he calles it Babylon of the West More then that your owne writers deny those Ho milies on the Apocalyps to be Auâ—tins and think them rather to be written by Ty conius the Donatist which Ribera the Iesuite saies he hath found by certaine arguments and euident reasons Besides Baptista Regnald affirmes that the Commentaâ—ies of diners of the ancients Bede Ambrose Ausâ—ert Anselme Prunasius and Austin are mysticall and allegoricall not historicall so that wee are not to rest vpon any of them for the true and proper meaning of the text It shewes more discretion than plaine dealing to omit that which you cannot answere Master Perkins reasons are euident and strong The citie that in S. Iohns daies raigned ouer the Kings of the earth is the whore of Babylon Apoc. 17. 18. But Rome that is ciuitas the state of Rome and Rome onely is that citie that raigned ouer the Kings of the earth in S. Iohns daies Therefore Rome and Rome onely is the whore of Babylon 2 The citie that in S. Iohns daies was seated on seuen hilles is the seate of the whore of Babylon Apoc. 17. 9. But Rome that is vrbs the towne of Rome is that only is the citie that in S. Iohns daies was seated on seuen hilles Therefore Rome and Rome onely is the seate of the whore of Babylon To the proposition of the latter reason you answere that the seuen hilles are not to be taken literally because the Angell makes the seuen heads aswell seuen Kings as seuen hilles But surely that rather makes against you for as the seuen Kings are literally to be vnderstood so are the seuen hilles both being signified by the seuen heads not that the seuen hils are seuen Kings For the woman or Citie doth not sit vpon the Kings but rather the Kings vpon her Besides it were a strange interpretation to expound heads by hilles and hils by Kings whereas heads doe more resemble Kings than hilles doe speaker W. P. And the Papists themselues perceiuing that this shift will not serue their turne make two Romes heathenish Rome and that whereof the Pope is head now say they the whore spoken of is heathenish Rome which was ruled by cruell tyrants as Nero Domitian and the rest and that Rome wherof now the Pope is head is not here meant Behold a vaine and foolish distinction for Ecclesiasticall Rome in respect of state princely dominion and cruelty in persecuting the Saints of God is all one with the heathenish Empire the See of the Bishop being turned into the Emperours court as all histories doe manifest speaker D. B. P. Well
part of our soule but that the renewing of Gods image in vs is the renewing of that part Now this is done by sanctification not by iustification properly taken I can finde no such thing in that booke of Cyrill but if euer he spake so what is that against vs who easily grant that we are inherently righteous as soone as the sanctifying spirit of God hath kindled the fire of loue in our hearts II. Difference about the manner of Iustification speaker W. P. All both Papists and Protestants agree that a sinner is iustified by faith This agreement is onely in worde and the difference betweene vs is great in deede And it may be reduced to these three heads First the Papist saying that a man is iustified by faith vnderstandeth a general or a Catholike faith whereby a man beleeueth the articles of religion to bee true But we hold that the faith which iustifieth is a particular faith whereby we applie to our selues the promises of righteousnesse and life euerlasting by Christ. And that our opinion is the truth I haue proued before but I will adde a reason or twaine Reason I. The faith whereby we liue is that faith whereby we are iustified but the faith whereby we liue spiritually is a particular faith wherby we apply Christ vnto our selues as Paul saith Gal. 2. 20. I liue that is spiritually by the faith of the sonne of God which faith he sheweth to be a particular faith in Christ in the very wordes following who hath loued me and giuen himselfe for me particularly and in this manner of beleeuing Paul was and is an example to all that are to be saued 1. Tim. 1. 16. and Phil. 3. 15. speaker D. B. P. Ans. The â—aior I admit and deny the Minor and say that the proofe is not to purpose For in the Minor he speaketh of faith vvhereby vve apply Christs merits vnto ourselues making them ours in the proofe S. Paul saith only that Christ died for him in particular He makes no mention of his apprehending of Christs iustice and making of it his owne which are very distinct things All Catholikes beleeue with Saint Paul that Christ dyed as for all men in generall so for euery man in particular yea and that his loue vvas so exceeding great tovvards mankind that he vvould vvillingly haue bestovved his life for the redemption of one only man But hereupon it doth not follovv that euery man may lay hands vpon Christs righteousnes and apply it to himselfe or else Tuâ—…s Iovves Heretikes and euill Catholikes might make verie bold with him but must first doe those things vvhich he requires at their hands to be made partakers of his inestimable merits as to repent them hartely of their sins to beleeue and hope in him to be baptized and to haue a full purpose to obserue all his commandements Which M. 〈◊〉 also confesseth that allmen haue not only promised but also â—ovâ—ed in Baptisme Novv because vve are not assured that vve shall performe all 〈◊〉 therefore vve may not so presumptuously apply vnto ourselâ—es Christs righteousnes and life euerlasting although vve beleeue that he died for euery one of vs in particular speaker A. W. That vvhich follovveth in M. Perkins hath no colour of probability that S. Paul in this manner of beleefe that is in applying to himselfe Christs merits vvas an example to all that are saued See the places good Reader and learne to bevvare the bold vnskilfulnes of sectaries For there is not a vvord sounding that vvay but only hovv he hauing receiued mercy vvas made an example of patience Master Perkins prooues his minor thus The faith by which Paul liued was a particular faith whereby he applied Christ to himselfe But the faith by which we liue is the faith by which Paul liued Therefore the faith by which we liue is a particular faith whereby we applie Christ to our selues The proposition Master Perkins prooues by the Apostles testimonie where he doth particularly apply Christ to himselfe as hauing loued him and died for him You answere that S. Paul makes no mention of his apprehending of Christs iustice no more doth Master Perkins in his proposition But the Apostle mentions such a particular faith as Master Perkins speakes of viz. a perswasion that Christs benefits belong to him in particular and that Christ hath particularly loued him which is to apprehend Christ. And this is another manner of matter than to hold that Christ died for euery particular man which the diuels no doubt doe acknowledge The assumption is euident of it selfe for there is no question but that all which are iustified haue and liue by the same faith But Master Perkins sets out the matter by two places of scripture in the former whereof the Apostle propounds himselfe to all men as an example of Gods mercie that they may assure them selues that if they will beleeue in Christ as hee did they should haue forgiuenes of their sinnes as he had In the latter hauing shewed that he cast off all confidence in his owne righteousnes and accounted it as dung resting onely vpon God for his righteousnes by faith in Iesus Christ he exhorts all men to follow his example both in faith and holinesse speaker W. P. Reason 11. That which we are to aske of God in prayer wee must beleeue it shall be giuen vs as wee aske it but in prayer wee are to aske the pardon of our owne sinnes and the merit of Christs righteousnesse for our selues therefore wee must beleeue the same particularly The proposition is a rule of Gods word requiring that in euery petition wee bring a particular faith whereby wee beleeue that the thing lawfully asked shall bee giuen accordingly Mark 11. 24. speaker D. B. P. Of the Maior much hath been said before here I admit it all due circumstances of prayer being obserued and deny that vve must pray that our Sauiour Christ Iesus merits may be made ours in particular for that vvere greatly to abase them but good Christians pray that through the infinite value of those his merits our sinnes may be forgiuen and a iustice proportionable vnto our capacity may be powred into our souls vvhereby vve may leade a vertuous life and make a blessed end speaker A. W. It is no abasing of our Sauiours merits that is of his obedience to the morall law and his suffrings that they should be communicated to euery member of his mysticall body for their iustification as long as the worke of redemption remaines proper to him speaker W. P. The minor is also euident neither can it be denied for we are taught by Christ himselfe to pray on this manner Forgiue vs our debts and to it we say Amen that is that our petitions shall without all doubt bee graunted vnto vs. August serm de temp 182. speaker D. B. P. But it is goodly to behold hovv Master Perkins proueth that vve must pray that Christs righteousnes
to the poore they pill them by fines and vnreasonable rents and by vsury and crafty bargaines are not ashamed to cousen their nearest kinne Finally in place of prayer and washing away their owne sins by many bitter teares they sing meerely a Geneua Psalme and raile or heare a railing at our imagined sinnes or pretended errors And so leaue and lay all paine and sorrow vpon Christs shoulders thinking themselues belike to be borne to pleasure and pastime and to make merry in this world speaker A. W. This spitefull and slanderous inuectiue of yours sauouring neither of conscience nor ciuilitie whereby you charge your soueraigne his counsailers nobles gentrie and all that any where in sinceritie professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ with flat Epicurisme I wittingly omit holding it more Christian like to be railed vpon without cause then to raile vpon desert We vse our libertie with moderation how you priests and Iesuits obserue that which feare of damnation hope of reward the lawes of your superiors and your owne vowes bind you to I had rather euery man should iudge according to his knowledge then suspect by my reporting of that which would not seeme very vnlikely The seuenth point Of Traditions speaker W. P. Traditions are doctrines deliuered from hand to hand either by word of mouth or by writing beside the written word of God Our consent Conclus I. Wee hold that the very worde of God hath beene deliuered by tradition For first God reuealed his will to Adam by word of mouth and renewed the same vnto the Patriarkes not by writing but by speech by dreames and other inspirations and thus the worde of God went from man to man for the space of two thousand and foure hundred yeeres vnto the time of Moses who was the first pen-man of holy scripture For as touching the prophesie of Enoch we commonly holde it was not penned by Enoch but by some Iew vnder his name And for the space of this time men worshipped God and helde the articles of their faith by tradition not from men but immediately from God himselfe And the historie of the new testament as some say for eightie yeeres as some others thinke for the space of twenty yeeres and more went from hand to hand by tradition till penned by the Apostles or being penned by others was approoued by them speaker D. B. P. Hitherto we agree but not in this which he interlaceth that in the state of nature euery man was instructed of God immediately in both matters of faith and religion For that God then as euer since vsed the ministerie aswell of good fathers as godly masters as Enoch Noe Abraham and such like to teach their children and seruants the true worship of God and true faith in him otherwise how should the word of God passe by Tradition from Adam to Moses as M. Perkins affirmeth If no child learned any such thing of his Father but was taught immediately from God but M. Perkins seemeth to regard lâ—â—tle such petty contradictions speaker A. W. If you were not more desirous to pick quarrels then to acknowledge truth you would neuer faine such contradictions Master Perkins sayes no such thing as you charge him with but speakes only of the Patriarks by whose ministerie the rest were taught as he shewes otherwhere making it an argument to perswade housholders to the like dutie speaker W. P. Conclus II. We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but either came to vs or to our ancetours onely by tradition As 2. Tim. 3. 20. it is said that Iannes and Iambres were the Magitians that withstood Moses now in the books of the olde testament wee shall not finde them once named and therefore it is like that the Apostle had their names by tradition or by some writings then extant among the Iewes So Hebr. 12. 21. the author of the Epistle recordeth of Moses that when he saw a terrible sight in Mount Sinai he said I tremble and am afraide which words are not to be found in all the bookes of the old testament In the Epistle of Iude mention is made that the Diuell stroue with Michael the Archangell about the bodie of Moses which point as also the former considering it is not to be found in holy writ it seemes the Apostle had it by tradition from the Iewes That the Prophet Esai was killed with a fullers clubbe is receiued for truth but yet not recorded in Scripture and so likewise that the Virgin Mary liued and died a virgin And in Ecclesiasticall writers many worthy sayings of the Apostles and other holy men are recorded and receiued of vs for truth which neuerthelesse are not set downe in the bookes of the olde or new Testament And many things wee holde for truth not written in the worde if they bee not against the word speaker D. B. P. His 2. Conclus We hold that the Prophets our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles spake and did many things good and true which were not written in the Scriptures but came to vs by Tradition but these were not necessary to be beleeued For one example he puts that the blessed Virgin Marie liued and died a Virgin but it is necessary to saluation to beleeue this for Heluidius is esteemed by S. Augustine an Heretike for denying it speaker A. W. Master Perkins saith nothing of the necessitie of beleeuing That point of the virgin Maries perpetuall virginitie we hold to be true but we dare not lay a burthen vpon any mans conscience where the scripture is silent S. Austins iudgement though he were a singular light of the Church is not of waight inough to determine without all warrant of scripture what is heresie and what is not especially since himselfe confesseth that it cannot at all or very hardly be declared by a lawfull definition what makes a man an heretike Besides Austin thus deliuers the matter concerning the Heluidians heresie The Heluidians saith he so gaine said the virginitie of Mary that they confidentlie affirme she had other children after Christ by her husband Ioseph So that it may well be Austin counted them heretikes especially for auouching that peremptorily which they could no way make good by scripture speaker W. P. Conclus III. We hold that the Church of God hath power to prescribe ordinances rules or traditions touching time and place of Gods worship and touching order and comelines to bee vsed in the same and in this regard Paul 1. Cor. 11. 2. commendeth the Church of Corinth for keeping his traditions and Act. 15. the Counceil at lerusalem decreed that the Churches of the Gentiles should abstaine from blood and from things strangled This decree is tearmed a tradition and it was in force among them so long as the offence of the Iewes remained And this kinde of traditions whether made by generall Councels or particular Synods
vnto the holy Scripture itself all good deeds done to the glorie of God be acts of the true vvorship of God And S. Anne did worship God by fasting and prayer And almes bestovved on Gods prisoners is called a sacrifice pleasing and acceptable vnto God And it is said to be a pure religion before God to visite Orphanes and vviddovves If then all other vertuous duties done to the glory of God be parts of his true worship much more Vovves vvhich by speciall promise dedicate a good deed to Gods honour they then being of their ovvne nature speciall parts of his true vvorshippe of God it follovveth necessarily that at all times they vvere and may be vsed to the true vvorship of God speaker A. W. If we be bound to vow in neither as indeed we are not yet are we as much bound in the one as in the other which is all Master Perkins saith But indeed as I conceiue hee meanes bound to it as a seruice of God Wee graunt that you say of a vow and withall confesse that it is a meanes of Gods seruice but not properly a part otherwise then all obedience whereby we glorifie God and all helps by which we fit our selues to obedience are parts of his worship But those actions onely are held to be properly the parts of his worship which are performed immediatly for seruice to him not vsed for the better performance of it speaker D. B. P. That they were in practise before Moses Law is euident by that Vovv which Iacob made of setting vp a stone which should be called the house of God and the paying the tenthes of all his goods Out of which Vow we also gather that God holdeth for agreeable any kind of good seruice offered vnto him out of our owne deuotion albeit he hath not commaunded it for no such thing as Iacob there Vowed was commaunded him but he being well assured that it would be wel taken by God which was offered of good will to his greater honor he Vowed it and is in holy Scripture commended for it speaker A. W. Againe that when S. Paul seemeth to disallow voluntary worship he must be vnderstood to speake either of erroneous or of friuolous and foolish things promised to God which do not properly serue to the setting forth of his honor Iacobs action was directed immediatly to Gods seruice not intended or vsed as a helpe to further him in the worship of God That which you gather out of his example is not warrantable by it vnlesse you restraine those words good seruice otherwise than you Papists commonly doe For it doth not follow that because God accepted of tâ—… vow therefore he will like whatsoeuer a man shall promise him so it be as he imagines to the greater honor of God The former of these two was in likelihood inioyned Adam by God and so continued among the true worshippers of God the latter is grounded vpon that principle that we must glorifie God in our soules bodies and goods though the manner be left free to euery mans discretion according to his abilitie and opportunitie but no man may conclude hereupon that God in his solemne worship allowes of whatsoeuer wee out of our deuotion inuent and appoint to serue him by That of Paul must needes be vnderstood of such things but such are all that are deuised by man to worship God by without warrant from the word of God either generally or particularly expresly or by necessarie consequence For all such seruing of God is worship depending wholy vpon the will of man and so will-worship The ceremonies of your Romish Church are generally foolish and ridiculous yea those in your Masse your Doctrines besides Scripture erronious as I shewed in the last article speaker W. P. But they alleadge to the contrarie the Prophet Esay cap. 19. 20. who speaking of the time of the Gospell saith the Egyptians shall know the Lord and shall vowe vnto him and keepe it I answere two waies first that the Prophet in this place expresseth and signifieth the spirituall worship of the new Testament by ceremoniall worship then vsed as hee doth also in the last chapter where he calleth the ministers of the new Testament Priests and Leuites Secondly we graunt the Church of the new Testament makes vowes vnto God but they are of morall and euangelicall duties which must not be left vndone and if vowing will indeede further them it is not to bee neglected And therefore so oft as wee come to the Lords Table wee in heart renew the vowe and promise of obedience And though vowes be made of thinges and actions indifferent yet are they not any parts of Gods worship which is the point to bee prooued speaker D. B. P. Now that Vowes should be frequented in the sâ—…e of the â—…pell besides the euidence of S. Pâ—… Voâ— and diuers other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—â—e Prophet Esay did foretell in thâ—se word◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sacrifice and gifts and they shâ—ll Voâ— Voâ—â—s 〈◊〉 ourâ—… To which M. Perkins answereth first that by such cereâ—… as thâ—n was in vse the Prophet doth expresse the spirituall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the new Testament This exposition is voluntary and nothing 〈◊〉 For what is more vild and absurd than â—o declare that Christians shal make no Vowes to say that they shall make Vovves as though one contrarie vvere fit or vvould serue to expresse the other This exposition being very vnmeete M. Perkins adioyneth a second that in the nevv Testament vve haue Vovves of Morall and Euangelicall duties but such are not any part of Gods vvorship â—o that first you shall haue no Vovves at all Secondly the vvind being changed you shall haue them but as no parts of Gods vvorship as though Morall and Euangelicall duties vndertaken and performed to Gods greater glory bee not the very synevves and substance of his seruice and vvorship speaker A. W. That S. Pauls vow maketh nothing for you Master Perkins hath shewed It is marueile you would name the example and not refute his answere Belike the truth of it was too euident And yet it had been no hard matter perhaps to finde as good a shift for that place as you haue for the other of Esay Master Perkins answered to it that the Prophet signifieth the spirituall worship of the new Testament by the ceremonies of the old then in vse and he prooues his interpretation by the Prophet himselfe who afterwards calles the Ministers of the new Testament Priests and Leuites which were offices and names proper to the old You slip ouer the reason and â—ell vs that it is vile and absurd to say that Christians shall make vowes to declare that they shall make none But the Prophet meanes to de from Senacherib The generall doctrine ensuing from it is this that we are to be thankefull to God when he hath deliuerd vs out of any extraordinary danger Your second reason is of lesse force for first
them he must needs be furiously transported with blind zeale that makes warre against Crosses and burnes holy Pictures as of late the Superintendent of Hereford did in the market place openly Here is not one sufficient testimonie as I haue shewed to prooue that euer there were any such Images as you speake of then what miracles could be wrought for the countenancing of our Sauiour by them It is an honour indeed to haue Images erected in memorie of the deceased but not for him that is God neither is it a religious honour but a ciuill proceeding not from our deuotion but from our loue whatsoeuer the ground of our loue be in respect of them whom we so honour How slight and vaine a motion to the imitation of any mans vertues the sight of his Image is let all experience testifie which indeed can bring no more but the remembrance of it at the most But suppose there were some more force in it all the helps that can be imagined likely to come by it will not counteruaile the danger of Idolatrie and so the breach of Gods commandement in erecting them for any vse of Religion whereupon Idolatrie will most certainly ensue That fable of I cannot tell what woman moued to some ciuill outward carriage by the beholding of Polemons Image seemes to haue been deuised out of the Heathen historie of another Polemon who was brought to the like ciuill vertue by hearing the Philosopher Xenocrates discourse of continencie and temperancie a farre more likely matter whether it be true or false But what haue we to doe with that lying Conuenticle which tels vs of such a thing out of Athanasius as was written if they say true some foure hundred yeeres before and neuer heard of vntill that time when there was such speciall need of it No no that dealing of that Councill is too well knowne to purchase any credit with mē that will not wilfully be blinded In the like sort they deale with Basil Cyril Ambrose Chrysostome Gregorie and the Apostles themselues whose decrees they fetch out of a counterfeit Synod at Antioch The difference speaker W. P. Our dissent from them touching images stands in three points I. The Church of Rome holds it lawfull for them to make images to resemble God though not in respect of his diuine nature yet in respect of some properties and actions Wee on the contrarie hold it vnlawfull for vs to make any image any way to represent the true God or to make an image of any thing in way of religion to worship God much lesse the creature thereby For the second commandement saith plainely Exod. 20. 4. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen image or the likenesse of any thing in heauen c. The Papists say the commaundement is meant of the images of false gods But will they nill they it must be vnderstood of the images of the true Iehouah and it forbids vs to resemble God either in his nature properties or works or to vse any resemblance of him for any sacred vse as to help the memorie when we are about to worship God Thus much the holy Ghost who is the best expoūder of himself teacheth most plainly Deut. 4. 15. 16. Thou sawest no image at al either of false or true god and therefore thou shalt not make any likenes of anything And againe the Prophet Esay c. 40. 18. reprouing idolaters asketh to whom they will liken God or what similitude will they set vp to him And vers 21. Know ye nothing haue ye not heard hath it not bin told you from the beginning as if he should say haue yee forgotten the second commaundement that God gaue vnto your fathers And thus he flatly reprooues all them that resemble the true God in images speaker D. B. P. This passeth all kind of impudencie to quote the Roman Catechisme in defence of that opinion which it doth of set purpose disproue It teacheth indeed that the very nature and substance of God which is wholy spirituall cannot be expressed and figured by corporall lineaments and colours and all edgeth the places produced by M. Perkins to proue that vnlawfull yet by and by annexeth these words Let no man therefore thinke it to be against religion and the Law of God vvhen any person of the most holy Trinities is pourtraied in such sort as they haue appeared either in the Old or Nevv Testament c. But let the Pastor teach that not the nature of God but certaine properties and actions appertaining to God are represented in such Pictures If the man be not past grace he wil surely blush at such a foule error His textes of Scripture are taken out of the same place of the Catechisme and do proue only that Gods proper nature cannot nor may not be resembled in any corporall shape or liknes speaker A. W. If you would haue dealt as kindly with Master Perkins in this quotation as I haue dealt with you in many you might haue applied it to the former part that the commandement is meant of the Images of the true Iehouah which your Catechisme grants though onely so farre as concernes the expressing of his forme by an Image as your selfe also confesse And the Councill of Trent affirmes that to be vn being al one in the coueting of wife and coueting of house seruant maide oxe asse and whatsoeuer els as the Apostle expresseth it without mētioning any particular But the two first differ almost as much as may be The first forbidding the worship of any other God but the true the second prohibiting the worshipping of him by an Image or Idoll The last reason which only your Catechisme brings beside Austins authoritie and custome of your Church is insufficient also For it was very fit that God should adde that reason of promise and threatning to that rather than any of the rest because hee had speciall care of that and knew that the Iewes and all men generally were likely to worship him after their owne deuices and namely by Images Beside is not the reason annexed to the third Commandement as generall that God will not hold him guiltlesse which breakes any of his lawes why then doe you not make that also a part of the first Commandement speaker W. P. And the distinction they make that an Image is the representation of true things an Idol of things supposed is false speaker D. B. P. But Master Perkins goeth on and saith that our distinction betweene Image and Idoll that an Image representeth a thing that is but Idoll a thing supposed to be but is not is false and against the auncient writers vvho make it all one We proue the contrary First by the authority of the auncient Doctors Origen and Theodoret vvho in expresse vvords deliuer the same difference of Image and Idoll vvhich is taken out of S. Paul laying that an Idoll is nothing in the vvorld that is such Idols as the Heathen take for
at variance for euer with the Church of Rome For they erre in the foundation of religion making indeede an Idoll of the true God and worshipping an other Christ then we doe vnder new termes maintayning the idolatry of the heathen And therefore haue wee departed from them and so must wee still doe because they are idolaters as I haue proued speaker D. B. P. But this poynt of difference is made to bring in a common arâ—ument of theirs to wit that the worshipping of the golden Calfe is condemned as flat Idolatrie and yet the Israelits worshipped not the Calfe but God in the Calfe to which we say they did not worship the true God in the Calfe but the God of the Egyptians which was taken by them to haue the shape of a blacke Calfe with white spots See S. Augustine And therefore making the golden calfe to represent this false god and attâ—ibuting their deliuerance vnto that supposed god and not vnto the God of Israel committed idolatry which the text prooueth most manifest these be thy gods that brought thee out of Egypt M. Perkins answereth that the meaning is nothing else but that the golden Calfe was a signe of the presence of the true God such glosses without any authority of the auncient fathers is â—idiculous being against the plaine text but sayth he we must not thinkâ— them so â—adde as to take a Calfe made with their care-rings to be their God no but we may well thinke them so vngratefull vnto the true God their deliuerer that they did ascribe their deliuâ—rance not to him but vnto that God which the Aegyptians serued whose purtraiture was that Calfe speaker A. W. This point of difference is brought in not to auow any argument of ours but to answere a distinction of yours who being driâ—â—n to shifts thinke to help the matter by telling vs that the Iewes worshipped the golden Calfe and therefore were condemned To which we replie that the Iewes did worship Iehouah in or by the Calfe which we prooue by the text it selfe s These be thy Gods that brought thee out of the laÌ„d of Egypt But it was the true God that brought them out of Egypt euen t Iehouah You answere that they attributed their deliuerance to that false God of the Egyptians Then did they thinke the Egyptian God to be Iehouah for to Iehouah do they consecrate the day of dedicating the Calfe u Tomorrow shall be the holy day to Iehouah But how ridiculous a conceipt is this to faine that the Iewes should imagin that the Egyptians God was their deliuerer whereas they knew that the great wise men of Egypt the chiefe worshippers of that God had striuen against Moses and their deliuerance by all meanes possible till at last they and the power of their God were ouercome So that indeede it was impossible they should be so sottish as to dreame that the Egyptian God had deliuered them And if this had bin their fault being a thing so monstrous and sensles God would certainely haue charged it vpon them when he laid out their sinne to Moses But he rather accuseth them for breaking his commaundement by making a molten Calfe affirming to it and proclaiming These are thy Gods that brought thee out of Egypt This is farther confirmed by those two calues which in imitation of this Ieroboam set vp to worship the true God by and so continued euen by Iehu who destroyed the heathen Idols The text prooues nothing for you These be thy Gods that brought thee out of Egypt For the Egyptians had no such Calfe to their God though the Oxe or Calfe called Apis as Austinâ—aith â—aith in the place alleaged was consecrated to their chiefe God Serapis If we brought nothing for our exposition but authoritie you might stop our months with the contrary iudgement of the auncient writers but against reason authoritie is of small force and yet you bring none for your selfe nor answere Master Perkins shewing that Images are called by the names of the things they reâ—… 〈◊〉 and so that calfe made to be a token of Iehouahs presence that brought them out of Egypt is said to be the God that brought them out of the land of Egypt speaker D. B. P. But now before we end this question I must let you â—â—â—erstand what worthy men they were that fiâ—st began to wage batteâ—◠〈◊〉 â—…ages they were the â—evves in their â—almâ—â— Ord. 2. traâ—… 〈◊〉 aâ—… 〈◊〉 â—…od 〈◊〉 Act. 5. A baâ—baâ—ous Persian Xenias as 〈◊〉 Nâ—… 〈◊〉 16 cap. 27. Then Maâ—â—met the great god of the Turkes Alâ—… 〈◊〉 15. 17. vvith such like infidels â—oâ—â—â—ers and the skumme of the earth See Cardinall Bellaâ—mme de Jmag. lib. 2. cap. 6. speaker A. W. If these be the auncientest Authors you can bring that haue waged against Images I can goe beyond you many hundred yeeres What say you to Iacob who made all his houshold giue him their Images which he buried vnder an Oake that was by Shechim about the yeere of the world 2270 The commandement of God giuen on Mount Synah the preaching of the Prophets the zeale of many worthy Kings of Iuda were long before the Iewes Talmud which was begunne to be gathered and written more then 300. yeeres after Christ and was not finished till about the yeere 506. long before which time as I haue shewed Origen and Clement did not only speake against the Heathen Idols but defend the Christians for refusing to haue any Images and proue that the vse of them was vnlawfull and vnfit I shewed before about this matter of Xenaias who at soonest was aboue 400. yeeres after Christ that Images were withstood as vnlawfull euen in the beginning of preaching the Gospel This Nicephorus wrot not much more then 300. yeeres since As for Blasphemous Mahomet who patched vp his abhominable Alcoran with peeces of all kinds of professions though his intent was damnable and his writing most sottish yet hath he many things agreeable to the truth taken out of the bookes of Moses and in this point of Images his acknowledging of the truth shall make the more to your condemnation What should we do looking in Bellarmine if there were any thing for your aduantage more then that which you haue alleadged you might and would haue made bould with it as you do generally in all your answeres Bellarmine there tels vs a storie of the mislikers of Images but he neither begins where â—e should and dissents without any sufficient reason from Alphonsus a Castro and maketh that seauenth Councell his chiefest bulwarke speaker D. B. P. I vvill vvith one or tvvo testimonies of the auncientest Fatherâ— finish this controuersie I â—ctant Iâ— car de pass Christ. Kneâ—le downe and adore the venerable wâ—od of thâ— Crosse. Hâ—â—rome 〈◊〉 vita Paulae She adored prostrate before the Crosse as if shee had seâ—â—e Christ hanging on it Basil agaiâ—st Jâ—lian cited Act.