nisi mittantur Howe shall they preach except they bee sent as â—t is written in the tenth to the Romanes and sent by them which haue authoritie to sende Did not Saint Paul for that purpose leaue Titus in Creete Did hee not also giue Timothie charge to laye handes too quickely on no man To these that bee thus lawefullie ordeyned and called to haue cure and charge of soules yee are bounde to giue an eare by these yee must bee ruled in matters of Religion and as obedient children to their spirituall fathers And this biddeth Saint Hierome writing to Nepotian o True and necessarie as long as the pastour is such as Paul wilde Titus to ordeine but this helpeth yours little Esto subiectus pontifici tuo quasi animae parentem suspice Bee subiect to thy Bishop and reuerence him as thy soules father The same lesson teacheth Chrysostome in an Homylie De recipiendo Seueriano where hee beginneth thus Sicuti capiti corpus cohaerere necessarium est ita ecclesiam sacerdoti principi populum As it is of necessitie that the bodie cleaue to the heade so it is likewise of necessitie that the congregation cleaue to their Priest and spirituall ruler and the people to their Prince And within a fewe wordes after hee alleadgeth for the confirmation of this matter the Apostle writing thus to the Hebrewes in the thirteenth Chapter p This rule is not general without exception For Christ hath saide take heede of false Prophets c. Obedite praepositis vestris obtemperate eis quia ipsi peruigilant pro vobis quasi pro animabus vestris rationem reddituri Obey them that haue the ouersight of you and doe as they woulde haue you for they watch for your sakes as they which shall giue accomptes for your soules This obedience doeth our Sauiour require of all men saying Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee This obedience to Christes Church hath continued thoroughout all Christendome time out of minde And if the authoritie of the learned and holie fathers ought to beare sway and preuaile as of right it ought to doe indeede Arrogantium enim hominum est maiorum suorum authoritatem aspernari se illis ingenio vel sapientia anteponere For it is the manner and property of proud arrogant persons to contemne the authority of their elders to prefer themselues before theÌ„ in wit or learning If the consent of all christian Regions should be regarded probâ—bilia saieth Aristotle in the first Chapter of the first booke of his Topickes quae videntur omnibus vel plurimis Those things are probable which all men or at the least the most part doe iudge to be so If the long continuance of time must be of importance In his enim as witnesseth S. Hilarie vpon the hundred and eighteene psalme tanquà m in coelo verbum dei permanet in quibus hoc verbum non offenditur In them doth the word of God abide among whom that worde is not offended a This is but a vaine brag that you haue these three as shall appeare I hope sufficieÌ„tly in the answer to Albines treatise For you haue not one of them in such sort as that thereupon you may conclude as you doe If these three I saie The authority of the learned Fathers The common consent of Christian Regions The long continuance of time may be a sufficient testimonie for the verity we haue the true Gospell the true sence of it b These are but shamelesse beggings of the things in question and onely your bare and therefore vaine words for none of them you shal euer proue true Our Religion is the very Christian Religion The order of Ceremonies that the Catholike Church doth vse is the right order Our fasting and praying is according to the Scriptures Our Church is the true and lawfull spouse of Christ from the which as many as seperate them selues they are no sheepe of Christes folde they are reprobate persons they are the children of Belial they are impes of hell c What then is the president of our next last fathers yea though for some hundred or more yeares such as we may not vary from The vanity of this argument see cap. 38. of my answere You knowe what order your fathers kept howe they liued and howe they beleeued You are not ignorant how you haue beene brought vp instructed and trâ—â—ned in the lawes of Christ Whosoeuer goeth about to infringe or breake any part of that d You must proue the order godly and laudable or else your assertion is false godly order of that auncient custome and laudable vsage he is an hereticke an enemy to God a murtherer to mans soule a disturber of the common wealth a subuerter of all honest discipline and therefore most vnworthy to liue among men I e This complaint hath most iust apparant ground especially amongst men of your owne faction though it cannot be denied but that euery where there is so lamentable cause thereof but yet this preiudiceth our religion which condemnes all imoiety no more then you would haue it to doe yours haue heard read and seene many things yet can I not reade beare or see any world more contaminate and prone to al kinde of vices then this our age is And howbeit afore our daies there haue beene in all times and ages men and women very vitious and monstrous in their liuing yet then vertue was vertue and vice was vice But now in our corrupt time wee haue lost the true names and vse of all things and vertue with vs is taken for vice and contrarily vice is counted for vertue They that bee studious of modesty obseruers of temperancie and louers of sobrietie they be now a daies called Pinch-pennies and such that hunger droppeth out of their noses f This is false amongst vs if by catholique you vnderstande as you should sounde and true religion If any be vertuous followers of the Catholike which is the true Religion they be called Pharisies papists The discreete man he is called an hypocrite and the small talker a foole and an ignorant person On the other side they that leade their liues in all kinde of riote they be called handsome men men of the right making and such as can tel how to keepe honest mens companie Againe the statelier that one goeth the â—igher that he looketh and the stouter and malapertlier that he speaketh be more is he praised among the worldlings for a wise man who will not â—uffer himselfe to be ouertroden and made a laughing stocke to euery rasâ—all With such vaine glorious praises be such proude Thrasoes extolled â—nd magnified of the more part and no small number are giuen to flatâ—erie and enhausing of Clawbackes that neuer could that saying of Teâ—ence be better verified then it is now Obse quium amicos veritas oâ—odium parit To holde vp mens yea and their naye in holding with
councell testifieth of many authēticall exāples of such as maried after holy orders Moreouer in the daies of Iulian the apostata wee reade that Basilius a Priest of Ancyra and Eusichius a minister at the least of Cesarea of Cappadocia which had lately taken to wife a gentlewoman and was but then as a bridegrome both ended their liues in martirdome as writeth Zozomene lib. 5. cap. 10. and Balfamon long after vpon the 10. canon of the coūcell of Ancyra mentioneth a decree of Leo the Emperour whereby it was lawfull for thē within two yeares after they were ordered to mary And who can be perswaded that we reading of so many famous Bishoppes that were maried as namely of Demetrianus of Antioch of Spiridion in the councell of Nice of Gregory Nazianzen others and of infinite children of these Bishops of others of the ministry as we doe in all stories that they got none of these children after their ministry or that they left their wiues presently vpon their entring into their ministry especially seeing the stories that tels vs they were maried names vs their childrē mētioneth no such thing Howsoeuer it were with these it euidētly appeares in his 70. and 127. epistles that there was one Synesius an excellent learned mā Bishop of Ptolemais who was not only a maried mā and had children but that he begot children of his lawfull wife being and continuing still in the execution of his office And many more such examples might be remembred but these are sufficient to shew the impudency of their confident assertiō that there were neuer anie such and this which I haue faied I hope also is fully sufficiēt to shew not onely the vanity of his brag that made this preface that all is well with them and countenanced by fathers consent of regions c. but also to answere the demuande or obiection which I tooke vpon mee vpon that occasion to answere in this place concerning the beginning and proceeding of popery and how and by whom it was resisted For euen as I haue shewed they lacke all the countinance they brag of for those particular points that I haue here spoken of haue made it plaine that both their beginning and proceeding hath beene noted and withstoode euē so is it an easy matter to deale with them in all the rest of the points wherein they and wee differ as ere thou hast redde this my answere to Albine thorow I hope I shall make vnto thee full demonstration Wherefore thou maiest in the meane time hereby learne to arme thy selfe against such proud brags as notwithstanding thou hast hard the authour of this preface make For I hope euen by this whatsoeuer he hath saied to the contrary thou most plainely seest that neither scripture fathers consent of regions nor continuance of time can proue that they haue as he brags the true Gospell and the true sence of it the true Christiā Religiō the true Church spouse of Christ who haue in these maine principall points beene controled and condemned in all these as I haue shewed Whatsoeuer therefore he infers or buildes vpon this false principle or whatsoeuer after vpon the bare supposing the same to be true thou shalt reade Iohn de Albine railingly in his triumphant arrogant maner to speake in disgrace of vs our Church ministers or Religion I hope I say thou wilt esteeme of it as of vaine and foolish wordes of proud and yet malitious aduersaries Yet hauing thus answered in this sort his preface somewhat the better to prepare thee to iudge of Iohn de Albine and my answere vnto him giue mee leaue now to say somewhat concerning his booke and his maner of dealing therein Wherefore to proceede hauing perused and as throughly as I could considered of it gentle Reader I protest vnto thee vpon what occasion soeuer it hath got such credit amongst men of his owne consort that it hath not onely of them beene thought worthy to be published in English but also to be intituled A notable discourse against heresies I haue found it and so shall any indifferent Reader of this my answere vnto it not able at all to doe either good or harme but onely to such as are verie simple vnlearned and silly ignorant creatures For the principall questions in hand either alwaies he takes for graunted and so neuer goes about to proue them or subtlely suddainly seeming to haue vndertaken the proofe of them hee slippeth into another matter and therewith goeth on lustely as though he were busy about the point in controuersy when as indeede he hath left that quite and chosen to himselfe some other matter more easie for him to deale in either not at all in controuersy or howsoeuer to small purpose for the proofe of the thing intended And yet thus hee seemeth vnto himselfe and vnto his vnskilfull Reader to haue wonne the cause and to carrie all before him when indeede hee hath saied quite nothing to the purpose and hath busied himselfe onely about that which was needelesse which to the ende that thou maiest the better obserue thy selfe in the rest of his booke I will giue thee a tast of in the beginning thereof Vnderstand therefore that whereas his generall and principall scope is in his whole discourse to disgrace our ministry and the whole matter thereof our Religion that so hauing once perswaded his Reader that we haue neither lawfull ministers nor sound Religion hee might consequently boldely pronounce vs to bee heretiques and our whole Church schismaticall hereticall To effect this his purpose because hee soresawe that first it were necessarie that he should iustify their owne ministry and Religion before hee should so call ours into question first hee laboureth about that in the first eight Chapters then striueth about the other in the rest But marke now I beseech thee how he makes his entry into this so weighty and necessary a point Whereas indeede out of the fift to the Hebrewes wee obiect as hee confesseth that their calling to their Priesthoode Prelacies cannot be of God because their very offices themselues were neuer of Gods owne ordinance but onelie of mans owne deuising though to answere this obiection euery man might see and he himselfe saw as it appeares by his owne words ca. 1. that it was most necessary for him first to haue proued that their offices were of Gods institution and not of mans inuention onely like a cunning Sophister hee slippes from that promising after in some other place to proue it which yet though it stoode him in this his discourse neuer so much vpon he neuer so much as once remembreth or mentioneth againe And therefore thus onely supposing and taking this for graūted that their Priesthoode and Prelacies are of God which he knowes we will neuer graunt them hee takes vpon him to proue onely their comming thereunto to bee lawfull which he proues as slenderly also For to proue it hee onely saieth
quickelie forsake your popery and ioyne with vs. to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctours standing to that that euer the Catholicke Church hath taught not to turne at euery blast Vpon this matter one * Lib. con haer Vincentius Lyrinēsis who florished aboue a thousand yeares agone he saith thus If anie mā perchāce demaund saying Since that the rules of the Scripture are certaine b Yea and more then sufficient saieth he Marke he graunts the rules of the scripture to be sufficient how is then that true which your Andradius saieth the greatest part is left to tradition not writen sufficient of thēselues And what neede haue we thē of the authority of the Church He answereth For that saieth he that the secrets misteries of the holy Scriptures are such that euery mā doeth not vnderstand thē interprete thē after one sort but that of one place this mā that mā shal seeme to maintaine their opinions being cleane cōtrary one to another so that looke how many mē so many interpretations For one way it is interpreted by Nestorius another way by Arrius another way by Sabellius so forth according to diuers heresies that haue risen from time to time And therefore it is necessary for the knowledge of the trueth among so many errours to draw the c And for these reasons we allow of Vincentius rule vnderstanding as he doth that by the right line and rule of interpreting is ment that sence which hath the consent of the Prophets Apostles and Catholique Church for no other sence we giue of the Scriptures right line of the Propheticall Apostolical interpretatiō according to the rule true sense of the Catholicke Church This is the learned opinion of this anciēt father Vincētius Lyrinensis The III. Chapter IN the 3 Chapter you say as little to the purpose as in the second For vnderstanding by the Church the true catholique Church indeede and not your late Synagogue of Rome falsely by you so named because neither it nor the faith thereof is vniuersall neither in respect of time nor person whatsoeuer you haue writen therein we confesse to be most true and sure we are it maketh more for vs then for you For we neuer denied the ministry of the true Church to be needefull according to Vincētius rule to finde out the true sence of the scriptures and certaine we are that we are farre better able to iustifie our interpretations thereby then you are yours and he liuing a 1000. years agoe as you write we boldely affirme that you shall neuer bee able to proue that the Catholicke Church and her doctours and pastours before or in his time taught the errours and heresies now taught by yours for the which wee account yours Antichristian And yet as in the former Chapter most beggerly you begged this principle that your doctrine is the ancient Catholicke faith so here in this you begge this also that your Church is the true and vndoubted Catholicke Church But you must vnderstand howsoeuer your owne frendes will giue you at your first asking both these that yet we will graunt you neither of them both And therefore writing as you would seeme purposely against vs you should not thus miserably alwaies haue begged them at our handes but by sound and iust proofe at least haue endeuoured to proue that you had iust right thereunto and then with some more honestie and credit might you haue gone on in this supposall that they are yours This also you must vnderstand that when it is in question which is the trueth of Religion yea euen in the fundamentall points as indeede it is betwixt you and vs it is alwaies also in question which is the Church of Christ For as both parts imagine they haue the trueth so will they perswade themselues that they are the true Church Your frendes also and all others must bee aduertised that it is no newe thing for damnable heretiques to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church of the doctours thereof least through too much simplicity they think streight that you haue al these things on your side because you haue them so much and so often in your mouthes For as Cyprian writeth Epist ad Iubaianum de baptizandis haereticis the Nouations after the fashion of apes challenged vnto themselues the name of the Church and all other they called heretiques And we reade that in the time of Arius Macedonius and Donatus these heretiques accounted themselues the onely Christians and that the true Christians indeede were counted by them Homousians Macarians Caesarians and Caecilianists So doeth Tertullian de Prescrip aduersus haereticos testify that the heretiques did in his time So did the Donatists saieth August Contra Epist Parm lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epist 161. and he writeth Cōtra Epist Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongst the Manichees there was great brags of the trueth Bernard also in his 66. sermon vpon the Cāticles speaking against certaine filthy heretiques that condemned mariage and superstitiously absteined from meates yet saieth that they gloried that they alone were the body of Christ bragging also that they were the successours of the Apostles and Apostolicke the Church of Christ And indeede wee finde nothing more vsuall with the ancient hereticks then to boast that they had the Church and Catholique trueth on their sides And very vsuall we finde it also with them to stand much vpon fathers in the defence of themselues and their heresies For it appeareth in the Councell of Calcedon the 1. Action that Eutiches bragged that he had reade Cyprian and Athanasius yea that then and there he confidently saied for his defence that he had so learned of his ancient predecessours and that he had beene baptized in that faith had liued and hoped to die in it And we reade in the 4. Action of the same councell that Carosus an Eutichian heretique saied stoutly I beleeue thus according to the exposition of the 318. fathers and so was I baptised Dioscorus also in the 1. Act of that Councell cried and saied I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyrill on my side I go not from them in anie thing I am cast out with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrines I haue their testimonies euen set downe in their bookes for me And as we reade in August contra Cresconium the Donatist 2. booke cap. 23. and in his 4. booke cap. 17. he cited for himselfe Cyprian and it seemeth that Maximinus the heretique against whom August wrote vsed to alleadge for his defence the councell of Ariminum and therefore Augustine saieth vnto him Neither will I obiect the councell of Nice against thee neither oughtest thou to obiect that of Ariminum against me 3. booke 14. chap. What a vaine thing is it these things considered for you and your fellowes then to carie away the simple vnder the bare titles of Catholique trueth Catholique Church
hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
ministers either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy or that either they or their followers were the cause of the ciuil warres and troubles in France If the Duke of Sauoy haue any such right to Geneua as you pretend and that it be withholden from him it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the states ciuil of those parts why should it be layed to the charge of the ministers who you cannot proue haue had any intermedling therein And as for the troubles in France it appeareth by the stories thereof that they haue proceeded first from your owne side and that the doings of the protestant Princes there haue oftentymes beene iustified euen by the Kings owne edictes and proclamations to haue beene done in all loialty and that their warres haue beene but defensiue against the oppressions offered them contrary both to the ancient lawes and present edictes of the Land by certayne ambitious persons and not offensiue either to the Kings person or dignity And as for your Bishops and Priestes of whose being driuen from their lyuings by our men you complayne so much in some sorte I confesse thorow their occasion indeed they haue beene dispossessed thereof but that seditiously or tumultuously by force they haue beene driuen there from by them we vtterly deny For in most places they haue beene dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation and consideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto in solemne and lawfull assemblyes of the estates of the countries by the lawfull authority of the same estats as namely here with vs in EnglaÌ„d in Scotland and in other kingdomes where the Gospell is receiued and established by publique authority and by the same authority orderly our men whose right thereunto in those assemblyes and Parliamentes haue beene founde to be the better haue beene put into possession thereof And in other places your Bishops and Priestes as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospell when will they nill they they sawe it would take place in their territories forsooke their places and left them to those that had more right thereunto as for example they did in Geneua when the Gospell was first established there And no marueile though vpon the bare preaching of Gods trueth and the entertainment thereof many of your proude Bishops and superstitious Priestes can stand no loÌ„ger in their places For when the Arke of God came in presence Dagon could staÌ„d no longer though his frends set him vp againe neuer so often yea the more they stroue to haue him stand the more dangerous fall got he as you may read 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be leâ—ted but Christes saying will take place and be verified one time or other Euery plant that my heauenly father hath not planted shall be plucked vp by the rootes Matth. 15.13 whereupon it commeth indeed that the proude prelates of your Antichristian Hierarchie hauing gotteÌ„ vnto themselues titles and offices through the ambitious and fond deuise of mens heads which God neuer allowed to be for his house must needes when God meaneth to reforme his house and to establish his owne orders therein auaunte their roomes and leaue their liuinges for the Lordes true officers and allowed seruantes indeede Blame therefore the badnesse of your foundation and title for leesing of your liuings and nothing else You bid vs shew our euidence that our right to them is better then yours out of the ancient doctours In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes in his booke of Prescription against heretiques against vs and that of Paul How shall they preach vnlesse they bee sent Romans 10. I answere you not onely out of the ancient doctours but out of the Canonicall Scriptures also our ministers long ago haue made euident demonstration vnto the Princes and estates that haue driuen you out of possession and put them in that their title to your liuings was good and yours starke naught in that thereby they proued vnto them their religion to be ancient sound and Apostolique and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stampe though you according to your maner say we cannot deny but that your religion was planted throughout Christendome 1000. yeares before wee were borne which you shall neuer be able to proue true for wee most constantly deny both that antiquity and vniuersality of it And whensoeuer you will wee are ready againe by the same Scriptures and Doctours to proue our right by the same argument to bee good and sound and yours to be of no force come to the triall of it when and as oft as you will And therefore seeing it is a thing most euident that the reason why either you or we should pretend anie right to these or any other liuinges of the Church is that we feede the Church with wholesome and sounde doctrine wee hauing oft proued ours so to be by the grounds aforesaied and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours both Pauls saying and Tertullians must rather take place against you then vs. For I trust you will confesse that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach but those that preach the truth and questionles Tertullian vseth those words of his as by the wordes themselues as they are set downe by you it is euident not against those that were able to proue their doctrine sounde by the Apostles writings but against fantasticall heretiques such as had taught and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures deuised vpon their owne heades Against whom he being to prescribe both by the Scriptures and by the sounde testimony of those that succeeded the Apostles vntill his tyme he might lawfully and to good purpose say what are yee and from whence doe you come c. And truely when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in Tertullians tyme both in respect of doctrine and gouernment and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastours and teachers then and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word and then therewith on the other side compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie that hath beene these many yeares and yet is in yours ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing but in a number of points directly contrarying the word writen hee shall be enforced to thinke that if Tertullian were aliue againe and sawe notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle as though all were yours and no man had any right to any thing but your selues he would more vehemently vse these words here recited by you against your prelates then euer he did against Marcion Apelles or any other heretique in his time But you are so liberall vnto vs as to tell vs that though wee had commission from God yet he would haue called it backe euen for our noble actes and deedes in driuing you out of possession and taking possession though of our own before the sentence of the iudge was giuen Which you
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
Christ doth say He that hath sent me is with me and he hath not left me alone And therefore Theodorus his fellowes did conclude that there was no more vnion betweene the diuinity humanity of our Sauiour then there is betweene God vs. Of the which * c 1. Cor. 5. S. Paul doeth speake where he saieth hee that is ioined to God c Well quoted you would haue saied 6. is made one spirit with him The XXVI Chapter IT doeth suffise that one maie see by these fellowes how soone one that is ill disposed may alleage scripture in corrupt sense to maintain such heresies as these the which I will not staie to confute for thankes be to God they doe not raigne now for they haue perished and their authours a This is but a blind Prophetes dreame as you shall and your followers if yee doe not repent in time And besides this our Doctours haue fullie answered b It is wel yet that you wil confesse thus much by textes of Scriptures these olde heresies as you maie see in al the ancient ecclesiasticall writers and confuted them not onely with pithie reasons but vvith the true worde of God and the authoritie of diuerse generall councels And if I haue noted here some part both of their authours and of them to shew how they did seeke to confirme their damnable opinions I doe it only to warne the simple people that they should not so soone giue eare to false Pastours which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holie scripture and the pure word of God couering the cuppes of their poison with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken from the image of the eternall king to paint those subtill Foxes that will leade them all to damnation And therefore in the name of God I doe desire those that are not much vsed to reade the Scriptures nor to heare how the Church and the doctours doe expound the hard places a So doe we but not to driue theÌ„ from reading theÌ„ but to shew them hat they must be read and searcâ—ed diligently to beware how they reade them for feare of falling into errour taking onelie the letter which manie times hath a contrarie sence to that that is outwardlie writen For if so manie men of great learning excellent vnderstanding haue found such great rocks in this rough sea which haue manie times ouerthrowen their shippes how dangerous then must it needes bee vnto those that will take it in hande so doubtfull a nauigation hauing little skill or none at all But as for you my masters of the contrarie side you can saile with all tides all windes giuing the gouernance of the shippe or the guiding of the sterne without consideration b This is a meere slander to all kinde of people We haue at this daie in France I will not saie in England manie that haue the holie spirit Interpreters of the scriptures And for sooth what are they Mary Pedlers Coblers Tanners Bankrouts Runnegates such others which hauing no other liuing c Here the authour bewrayeth himselfe rather to haue beene an English man then a French For when this should be wrâ—ten there were no Lord Bishops in France to make such but papists sue to my Lord Bishop and hee makes them ministers beeing not one of them but hath the holie spirite d All this is but slanderous rayling lying for we doe not say or thinke thus but cry vpon Bishop that they admit no suc vnfit meâ— and we call vpon such rather humbly to content them selues with the places of earners then to presume without sufficient knowledge to be teachers for assoone as they can saie the Lorde and raile vpon the Pope the Bishops and all the learned men that haue beene in times past Oh these are great doctours no place of scripture to them is hard all the ancieÌ„t doctors were men the generall councels did erre I knowe that you doe maintaine your opinion with the saying of * e John 8. Christ alleaging it as other hereticks haue done the which is That the heauenly father hath hid these high and profound thinges from the great Clerkes and hath reuealed them vnto the meeke and humble This is true but it ought to be vnderstoode to the humble and meeke of spirit and not to those which trust so much to their owne wittes beeing puffed vp with arrogant ignorance that they thinke to know more in three daies reading then the doctours could in fiftie yeares studie faming themselues to be like the Apostles as if that God gouerned by their appetites did send euerie moneth the feast of Pentecost c Mat. 11. you should haue saied The XXII XXIII XXIIII XXV XXVI Chapter NEither our owne Doctors nor any thing els that yet you haue saied for all your great brag haue any force either to disproue that lawfulnes of our vocation or to condemne our religioÌ„ Neither is it true that we stand so much vpon our extraordinary calling as you would insinuate to your reader For we tel you that if you take ordinary calling in your owne sence if ther be any good at al in that Wickliffe Iohn Hus Luther Bucer and the rest that haue bene the first formost in these late daies in detecting the errours of the papacy and in renuing the light of the gospel had that kinde of calling And as for the rest since they haue had a better ordinary calling theÌ„ that in that it hath bene more agreeing to the order of calling by the Apostles and primatiue Church But in that to expresse what you meane by our extraordinary calling you say that therby you meane a calling without commission of the pastours and bishops c. I perceiue that therefore it is that you charge many of our ministers to preach the gospel extraordinarily because howsoeuer otherwise they had before they tooke vpoÌ„ them any dealing in the ministry the ordinary calling allowed of in the reformed Churches of Christ where they were to exercise the same they tooke not first any of your popish orders at the hands of some of your popish lord bishops after your popish maner In which sort I graunt you many of our ministers haue an extraordinary calling but then I say vnto you againe that their extraordinary calling hauing an eie to that order that Christ and his Apostles left in this case vnto the Church is more ordinary then the ordinary calling that you speake of And therefore though their calling of late daies here amongst vs hath not bene according to your order that they haue neither beene chosen by your pastours nor had imposition of hands of your Lord bishops yet you cannot say truely that any of them take vpon them extraordinarily that is as you expouÌ„d it without the commission of the pastours and bishops to preach the Gospel Name the man time and place you caÌ„not when and where any that is
haÌ„ging in S. Markâ— church at Venice sheweth that Pope AlexaÌ„der the 3. himselfe treading vpon the necke of the Emperour Fridericke the 1. caused thâ—se words of the Psalm Thou shalt walke vpoÌ„ the Adder tread the Cockatrise vnder thy feete which are properly to be vnderstoâ—â— of Christ to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his whereby appeareth that the Pope himselfe hath gone as farre as his flatterers That of Paul by him vnderstood of those that follow the directioÌ„ of the old maÌ„ and are led in their doings by the flesh They that are in the flesh caÌ„not please God Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope also interpreteth of theÌ„ that liue in the estate of mariage A Bishop must be the husbaÌ„d of one wife saieth Paul 1. Tim. 3. that is by their interpretatioÌ„ of one benefice and so his house and children that he must well order and gouerne there also spokeÌ„ of be his parish and parishioners Who so would vouchsafe the reading of your 2. Nicene councell he should there finde store of such interpretatioÌ„s for the maintenaÌ„ce of images so ridiculously alleadged as euer were any And how is it possible that the Church of Rome holding those principles that she doeth but that you must needes be as violent wresters and rackers of the Scriptures as euer were For both Cusan Epist 2.3.7 Hosius de expresso Dei verbo in his triple Dialogue doe teach that the scriptures must alwaies be interpreted according to the practise of the Church so that how oft soeuer that change the sence of the scripture must change also For still the sence thereof must be fitted to the time and in no case it may be thought to retaine a sence contrary to the practise of the Church And now you are fully come to this whatsoeuer at any time you talke either of Scriptures doctours or councels your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority to interprete all as one hauing authoritie so to doe for his owne sence So that in deede and trueth neither Scriptures doctours nor councels how plaine soeuer their wordes bee to contrarie the doings of your Church shall cary awaie any sence to ouerwharte you at all but will they nill they they shal be caused by your Pope to speake on your side And therefore these thinges considered you are the men and not wee that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king that you speake of in your twenty three Chapter and decke the image of a dogge or of a foxe therewith that is according to your owne application which take the wordes of the Scripture and by wresting of them make them serue to countenance your heresies For heresies wee holde none â—â—ither doe wee alleadge the Scriptures but in his true sence 〈◊〉 by these rules before mentioned we are alwaies readie to proue â—nd therefore for all your saying to the contrarie the Scripture as it is alleadged by vs shall proue euen that word of God that shall iudge you and condemne you if you repent not the sence that you force vpon it shall proue but the deuise of man false doctrine yea your whole Religion is but a renuing of olde heresies For with the Ebionits you will not be iustified by faith onely Euseb lib. 3. ca. 24. but also by your owne workes inhereÌ„t righteousnes as the Catharists haue taught you Isidor Etymolog lib. 8. cap. de haeresibus Of the Manichees you haue learned your ministring in one kinde Leo serm 4. de Quadragesimâ Marcus that heretique who by his inuocatioÌ„s made his followers beleeue that in the Eucharist he turned the wine into bloud hath beene your first schoolemaster for your doctrine of traÌ„substantiation Epip haeres 34. And your multitude of images your worshipping of them the Carpocratians haue taught you as to appeares Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. when you commit these idolatries you haue learned to excuse your selues to torment your selues and to light candels at noone daies of the ancient idolaters LactaÌ„tus lib. 2. cap. 2. lib. 1. cap. 21 6. cap. 2. As the Messalians restrained the force of baptisme to former sinnes witnesse Theodoret diuin decret cap. de baptismo so doe you As Montanus taught of purgatory oblations and praiers for the dead and limbus patrum Tertullian de coronâ militis euen so doe you As the Collyridians sacrificed vnto the Virgin Mary and worshipped her Epiphan haeres 79 so doe you As the Angelists and Caians gaue diuine honour to the Angels Epiphan haeres 38 so doe you As Montanus and the Manichees deuised lawes for superstitious fasting Euseb lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13 so doe you As the Tatians Encratites and Manichees were iniurious enemies to Matrimony crying out that it was a carnal life therefore forbad it to their elect and to them that would be perfect amongst them August Epist 47 likewise doe you And as the Pelagians denyed that to be sin which ariseth not from reason and wil August contra Iulianum lib. 3. cap. 5 so doe you for the very same reasons deny concupiscence of it selfe without consent thereunto to be sinne as there further it appears they ascribed to the natural powers strenght to doe spirituall things and affirmed that a man is to be saued for and by keeping the law so doe you Of the Valentâ—nians also you learned to haue in such price as you haue the signâ—â—f the Crosse and to abuse places of Scripture for it as God forbiâ— that I should reioice in any thing but in the Crosse of Christ Irenâ—us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres 31. Of the Heracleoâ—nites you learned your extreame vnction and other ceremonies you vse to the dead Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 36. Of the Macionites Pepusians Aug ad Quod. cap. 27 you learned to giue women leaue to baptise Epiphan haeres 42. Of the Hemerobaptistes and of the Ossenes you learned your holy water holie salte holie oile and holy bread Epiphan lib. 1 Tom. 1. cap. 17. 19. And of the same Ossenes you haue learned also your superstition about reliques and to pray in an vnknowen tongue as Elcai their great Pope taught them Epiphan haeres 19. Thus if a man in reading Augustine Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others that haue laboured in confuting the ancient heretiques would diligently marke what heresies and fonde things they held and vsed he should by and by by comparing their doings opinions with yours finde that you haue reuiued very many of their rotten and condemned heresies and that you haue learned most of your Ceremonies of them And yet as though you of all men were freest and furthest from all heresie still you crie out he retiques heretiques But it is but policy that you haue learned of some theeues who the better in an hew cry to escape ride crying out of theeues theeues But for all
is manifestly taught in others which is your fashion altogether and we alleadge them truely to confirme onely the trueth and therefore are very well contented that our interpretations should be tried by all soūd and good rules of interpreting Whereas you adde If we say they were heretiques and abused the scriptures c. the like report you say is of vs I say the more is their fault that so report of vs for they can neuer proue it Howbeit to make your report seeme the more probable you cōpare our dealings with theirs which by your saying are very like But the reader must be aduertised that you frame their speeches doings here without booke I meane without warrant of any good authour that reporteth these things of them euen of your owne head that so you may the better make their speeches and ours alike I praie you in what good authour did you euer reade and yet here you confidently aduoutch it that the Palagians Nouatians Nestorians c. who were long dead and buried before your Pope was hatched preached that the Pope was Antichrist It may be true that you write that some of them railed against the Roman Church that then was But alas what is this for your Romish Church now which is no more like that then then an apple is like an oister Indeede this is one of your trickes wherewith you coosen the poore simple people For it is the fashion of you all when you finde in any ancient father anie thing that soundeth to the credit of the Catholique church or to the commendation of the Roman Church in their daies to alleadge it as spoken in the commendation of your Romish church now a 1000. yeares after their death whereas there is more difference betwixt yours and that which they speake of in weighty materiall points of doctrine and discipline then in yeares If your Romish Church now would returne to the state of the ancient church of Rome and grow once like that you and we should soone agree For that is the thing that we will stand vpō with you that it is you in your railing vpon our churches that according to the fashion of these ancient heretiques raile vpon the church of Rome that then was rather then we For our churches are 1000. times more like it indeed thē yours as it is now Nether are you able to produce your authours to proue that these heretiques did at euery word alleadge scripture or appeal onely thereunto For the contrary is euident both in Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus August and others that wrote against them For they testifie that many of them shunned the triall of the Scriptures onely and fled euen as you doe to traditions succession of fathers visions other such like motiues as councels fathers antiquity consent c. as I haue shewed cap. 3. as appeareth euidently in diuers of these fathers writings as in Tertul in praescrip contra haeret Epiphanius in many places de haeresibus Chrysost in Math 4. Irenaeus libro 3. cap. 2. August Contra Maxim lib. 1. de Baptismo contra Donatist lib. 3. cap. 2. in Ioan Tract 13. de vnitate Ecclesiae cap. 15. Epist 165. ad Generosum Who but one of your Religion would euer thus grossely abuse his simple poore Reader You yet as a man that had saied all this while nothing but that you might truely say proceede on with your comparison tell vs that they were condēned by generall Councels so are we they were found cogging knaues and so shall we Whereunto I answere that those which you call generall Councels were but late Conuenticles of your owne since the apostasie of your Church from the ancient Roman Church wherein there was indeede no freedome of a lawfull Councell enioyed and therefore whose condemnation we neede care no more for then Christ and his Apostles needed to care for the sentence of condemnation that in their times the high Priestes Scribes and Pharisees gaue of them and their doings in their councels And as for your vnmanerly prophecie we neede not esteeme it For neither is your mouth any slander nor yet doe we take you to be a true Prophet But seeing say you they and you be thus like why should they be condemned for heretiques you absolued receiued I answere the likelihood is denied and the reason I haue giuen you alreadie As for Augustines probleme you talke of it is impertinent and toucheth vs not For we doe not with the Donatists shut vp Christs inheritance within the compasse of any place as they did in Africke neither say we that Christ at any time hath lost his in heritance but we say that Christ hath had alwaies and hath still his Church without restraint of place wheresoeuer it pleaseth him neither doeth it remaine now onely with a fewe rude Switzers and in two or three corners besides as it pleaseth you to speake For it is well seene that diuerse whole kingdomes as England Scotland and Denmarke haue receiued our Religion and that indeede it groweth so mightily in most places that it maketh the stoutest of you greatly feare that ere it be lōg your kingdome of the Pope will be greater in the west Indies then in these parts Hauing done with vrging this probleme which indeede fitteth you Papists better then vs in that you tie Christes inheritance to your Popes girdle you tell your Reader but you meane to proue it at leasure that these heretiques that you haue talked on all this while haue fortified their campe with as manie moe places as wee alleadge and therefore once againe you would haue a reason why that notwithstanding they should bee counted heretiques and not we You make vs answere because they did interpret them contrarie to the Churches doctrine which you suppose is the onely answere we can giue But I haue tolde you that because when there is questiō of truth there is cōmonly also questiō of the church our answere is that their alleadging of them was hereticall ours true and right as may be proued by the scriptures themselues and by the right rules of interpreting of them But be it that we answere as you imagine what haue we lost or you gained thereby This say you that you haue no more right then they to be counted Catholiques because you alleadge them also contrarie to the Churches doctrine Here againe you deceiue both your selfe and your Reader with the ambiguity of the word Church For if wee answere that we reiect their allegations for that they alleadged them contrarie to the Churches doctrine that then was we by the Church vnderstand a sound and sincere church of Christ in possession of sound Religion and not whatsoeuer Synagogue will entitle it selfe with the name of the Church and so vnder the name of the Church warre against the true church In which sence onely your Church against whose doctrine wee alleadge them hath the name of a church And yet you as though it
is no reason in the world why you should count from that yeare for neither Daniels words will beare it neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christs death for that was about the yeare of the world 3354 and he suffâ—ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth Neither is there any mention in Dan of 72. weekes but of 70 of numbers whereinto he deuideth that Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetique or wits were very sleÌ„der to reckon 72. weekeâ— that is so maâ—y times 7. years to be iust fiue hundred when as if you account againe you shall finde that your number is not so iust by 4. as you would seene for 72. times 7. makes 504. A shaâ—efull learned man sure you haue shewed your selfe here but he did assigne the very time that is to say by the seuenty two weekes counting from the fourth yeare of the raigne of Zedechias vntil the time that our Sauiour was naâ—â—ed vpon the Crosse the which time was iust 5. huÌ„dred years TheÌ„ seeing that Christ came at the verie prescribed time he might well haue saied vnto the Iewes that the Scriptures did beare witnes of him But yet to say the trueth if he had done no other but this he had not fully approued his vocation to condemne their incredulity For they might haue saied vnto him we know wel that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob about this time forasmuch as the scepter of this kingdome is taken froÌ„ the line of Iuda to be deliuered vnto Herod But what though is this a good consequence a But now that tâ—is point is sufficiently confirmed already so also al the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles therefore now to refuse to beleeue the ordinarie ministers of the Church vnles they proue the same againe by miracles which is your deaâ—ing with vs is an euident signe of vnbeliefe the Messiaâ— ought to coÌ„e about this time therefore it is I No no shew vs your coÌ„mission let vs see some signes how we shal know it for if we should receiue you as our king it may be that some other would come and craue the like saying that we were abused Our Sauiour Christ sore fearing this obiection toâ—ke another witnes with him besides the scripture I meane his miracles The workes that I doe saieth * John 5. Christ in the name of my father beare witnesse of me The like proofe is made wheÌ„ S. Ioh. * Mat. 11. Baptist sent his disciples to our Sauiour to haue him teach the true beliefe that they should haue in him this question was put to him art thou he that should come or ought we to attend for some other Go your waies saied Christ and tel Iohn what yee haue heard and seene The blinde receiue their sight the lame doe walke vpright the dumbe speake the deafe heare the lepers are cured the dead are raised againe and the poore are preached vnto the which is as much to say as tel Iohn that I am the true Messias that he ought to attend â—â— other I doe verifie my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles For first Esay doeth write that when the Messias should come he should doe the Miracles aboue mentioned Then seeing that I haue done theÌ„ in your presence it foloweth that I am he that should come Thus you see Sirs that both the b And by the same scriptures and by the same Miracles we iustifie our vocatioÌ„ and religion what wil you haue more Scripture and Miracles were necessarie for the confirmation of the comming of Christ among the Iewes who were neuer harder of beleife then we are according to your opinion and therefore blame vs not if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures c But they doe 2. Thess 2. Apoc 14. vers 8.6 and 7. the which doe neither beare witnes of your comming nor yet doe any miracles the which two thinges and more are necessary to make vs beleeue your reformed Gospell The XXX Chapter THe drift of this Chapter is to proue that Christ did not onely warraÌ„t his vocatioÌ„ doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures but also by miracles which I grant you proue sufficiently Wherupon you would coÌ„clude that we accouÌ„ting you as hard of beleife as euer were the Iewes therefore we should proue our calling and religion vnto you by both whereas if it be true that you say we can doe neither and so are to bee sent packing like coggers onely of the Scriptures Whither the Scriptures giue testimony vnto our religion or no. I referre to the reader to iudge by that which I haue writen already by that we haue writen from time to time in our bookes made in the defence of our religion And concerning our vocation and calling I trust I haue sufficiently confirmed that by theÌ„ also in that I haue shewed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time But if further you require a more speciall testimony from thence of our comming by our calling I sende you now to 2. Thess 2.8 and Reuel 14.6 c. where it is prophecied that God would towards the later end send his messeÌ„gers againe to consume Antichrist and by preaching the euerlasting Gospel to ouerthrow Babylon And as touching miracles you haue bene answered sufficiently already but that you complaine not that we refuse to answere you as long as you can obiect any thing to this now alleadged I say that you must vnderstand that it was necessary for Christ to confirme his calling by miracles because it is true as you alleage out of Esay that it was prophecied that the Messias should worke miracles when he came so also it was necessary once to establish and confirme the particular doctrine of his person the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law and other such new strange things as the comming of the Messias brought with it both to Iew and Gentile which reasons you cannot shew why we should work miracles now to confirme our vocation or religion by to you For neither was it prophecied that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption or the whore of Babylon to her fall by working of miracles but as you haue heard by the spirit of Gods mouth breathing in his euerlasting gospell the force whereof in our ministry you perceiue daily to be such that it is eueÌ„ a miracle and wonder vnto you to see in how short time it hath preuailed and preuaileth still against your kingdome doe you what you can to let it neither neede those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles which are the onely things that wee teach to be for your sakes confirmed againe though you be neuer so harde hearted The word writeÌ„ and the miracles therin recorded already must serue the turne to conuert you to our religion therein taught and
the philosophers of outward good works wherof you brag lustily in the later ende of this Chapter yet you shall neuer be able to proue your selues good trees because your Religion by the sound and perfect touchstone of the scriptures wil be proued false and Idolatrous This your selfe giue to be the very reason why the philosophers were bad trees notwithstanding that in respect of outward shew of holines we may truely confesse with you that euen their liues at the day of iudgement shall will confound a number of Christians in name which led Painims liues And therefore vntill it be set out of question that your Religion is not false nor Idolatrous which is impossible as long as the Scriptures keepe their place if you bragge of ten times moe outward workes then either you doe or can yet your owne mouth will condemne you as yet to haue saied nothing to proue your selues good trees And on the contrary euen by this your owne saying if we can proue our religion to be the sound Christian faith taught indeede by Christ and his Apostles and therefore that neuer since hell gates could preuaile against it which we doubt not of whensoeuer you will enter into this controuersie with vs then for all your saying here to the contrary Christes sentence shall giue vs very good aduantage Thus hauing shewed your cunning in restraining and collecting of this prouerbe of Christ as I haue now as one that after some wresting found it stronger for you then you would haue thought you graunt it to be most true the naturallie a good tree bringeth forth good fruit not bad at all and a crab-tree nothing but crabs And this you labour to proue first by certaine testimonies of S. Iohn affirming that he that is borne of God sinneth not then by other places as Iohn 8. Sap. 1.1 Cor. 10. you confirme that doctrine of S. Iohn lastly by a similitude shewing that as the rottennes wormeatennes or any such fault in the fruite of a good tree letteth not but that still naturally that tree may be saied to beare good fruit because these things fall out by some accident vnnaturall to the tree euen so the good tree alwaies as it is a good tree bringeth forth naturally good fruit Here in effect you let go and giue ouer the former restraining of Christs words and recant that you saied before the aâ—il tree as the philosophers may bring forth good fruit a good tree as a Catholique in Religion by whom you meane a Papist may bring forth ill fruits and will you nill you you are enforced to confesse that Christes wordes are generally true simply therefore alwaies verified of both good trees and bad trees as they are naturally considered But yet you adde the tree is knowen by his fruit and faith by workes so as then the fruit bee ripe in due season not otherwise Wherein I take your meaning to be that not euery shew of fruites nor vnripe works but works indeede good both in matter and maner of doing are the fruits whereby a good tree iustifying faith is discerned You yet proceede and say that as a rotten and wormeaten apple hanging vpon a good tree seeing that came not thorow the nature of the tree but by meanes of wormes birdes or some other such accident ministreth not a sufficient argument to proue that tree to be an ill tree so the ill workes of Christians ought not to staine their holy Catholique religioÌ„ For the corruption of their fruits commeth not from the nature of these religion which forbiddeth such fruits or workes but from themselues In all this vnderstanding not as you doe but as you should the holie Catholique Religion indeede which yours will neuer proue we ioyne with you and allow what you haue saied And as you supposing your religion to be the holy Catholique religion haue thus answered the obiection drawen from the good workes of professours of our religion and from the bad workes of yours so euen in the same words and maner supposing our religioÌ„ not yours to be that true holy religioÌ„ your obiection against vs grounded vpon the good workes of some of yours lewde liues of some that yet professe ours is also answered For we tel you as you seeme here to tel vs that your works are not ripe works such as good works should be both in matter and maner and therefore no argument more of the goodnes of your religion then the Philosophers works were of the goodnes of theirs that the ill works fouÌ„d in some of our professours ought not to steine our religioÌ„ forasmuch as none of them are iustified but condemned by the same But in the vttering of these things you haue vttered diuers things whereof it is needful to admonish both you and your Reader First in examining S. Iohns words you seeme simply to vnderstand that by being borne of God hee meant nothing else but being baptized as though they were both one or at least so inseparably coÌ„ioined that whosoeuer were outwardly baptized were certainely forthwith thereby inwardly regenerated and new borne wherein you and al that ioyne with you therein shew both great errour and ignorance in the doctrine of that sacrament For though by that sacrament al that haue receiued it are sacramentally new borne and receiued into Christs Church and therein haue had the washing away of their sinnes in the bloud of Christ represented vnto them offered vnto them and sealed and ratified on Gods behalfe to belong vnto them if they inwardly also will imbrace it yet to confound the sacrament of regeneration and the washing away of our sinnes with regeneration and remission of sinnes it selfe or to tye the later so vnto the former as that of necessity whosoeuer is partaker of the former is also partaker of the later is against all good diuinity Scripture and experience For diuinity admitteth not a confounding of the outward signe with the inward grace in a sacrament the scripture experience withall teacheth vs the SimoÌ„ Magus was baptised and yet no sounde diuine euer helde that forthwith thereby he was inwardly regenerated for by his fruites the contrary by and by euidently appeared Act. 8. Againe if outwardly to be baptised were by by to be regenerated then al that haue beene baptised haue beene inwardly regenerated all that are baptised once must needs be so which thing if it were so why how coÌ„meth it to passe that many neuer shew any fruites of regeneration and die giuing plaine euidence that they were neuer borne anew notwithstanding they were baptised and that there is no more hast made to baptise Turkes Iewes and whomsoeuer we can come by But it seemeth that as you holde this errour of baptisme that to defend it withall you are of opinion that a man once may be truely regenerated and so the childe of God iustified and sanctified in the bloud of Christ through grace and yet
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
to be christians and of him onely and of his vndoubted spirit speaking vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures haue we learned our religion with which as far as we finde any man to agree we reuerence him as it becommeth vs in the Lord further we take not our selues bound to follow any man whatsoeuer he be That Puritans and Precisians haue brought the ancient Protestants of this land of all sortes to any such point by any such meanes as he speaketh of he speaketh both vntruely and slanderously For such as for their preposterous zeale and factious turbulent spirits amongst vs deserue so to be called and accounted neither are for number so many nor for credit so affected of the common people nor wincked at of the magestrats as he pretendeth But if ther were as many fond sectaries that haue arisen vp amongst vs these late yeares as this man and other of his fellowes sometime would haue men to beleeue as long yet as we for all that continue constant not onely in the very same religion that we were of when we first broke of from them but also in that which hath plentifull and most playne warrant both from the canonicall scriptures and al sound antiquity as we haue a thousand times shewed and yet still are willing and ready alwaies to doe why should they thus odiously be obiected against vs to disgrace either vs or our religion especially seeing wee are sory for it and shew our mislike thereof as wee doe May any man iustly disgrace the Apostles and the Apostolique churches for that euen in their times there arose so many sectaries and heretiques amongst the Churches planted by them as both by their owne writings and other Ecclesiasticall histories it is notoriously knowen there did Hath not Christ euen of purpose to preuent all offence taking hereat compared his kingdome Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good seeds-man hauing sowen good wheat the enuious man so soweth his tares that they come vp togither with the wheat and so will doe vnto the haruest To let vaine words and brags go let thē proue but once any of them or all of them togither either that their religion is the plaine way of saluation beaten by our forefathers for these 1500. yeares past or that ours is not that very trueth that Christ and his Apostles taught as a perpetual trueth for the true church constantly to hold to the worlds end and we will striue with them no lōger But as this is a matter too hard heauy for them so they are content to let it alone and with fallacies vaine words to trie if they can beguile the simple people and bring them to a misliking of that which to mislike indeede they are not able to giue them one sound reason And therefore to conclude that both beginning ending and alwaies this mā may be like himselfe he taketh it for graunted that their religion is the sound catholique faith that the martyr Sebastian meant by his loafe which broken and broken againe after it was once well made and baked by sectaries heretiques as he told Genserichus the tyrant would neuer become better and that ours is but a breaking of it to make it better againe which will neuer be Whereas we constantly hold affirme that we may iustly say to all papists euen as Sebastian saied to that tyrant For the loafe that we feed on and would haue all others to feed on with vs we are able to proue is that the graine whereof Christ himselfe by his faithfull seruants hath sowen in the sound field of the canonical scriptures which he himselfe hath ground kneaden baked for vs and for all his children And likewise we are able to proue that this fine white loafe of the Lords own preparing alwaies lying ready in the storehouse of his writen word the Romish church hath a long time doth stil as much loath as euer the children of Israel did Manna And therefore as they preferred in their conceits garlicke leekes onions the flesh-pots of Egypt before that heauēly food so hath she and doeth she a massiue loafe the corne whereof must not come onely out of the foresaied field of the Lord for then it would haue no fauour with them but in great part out of the rotten field of mens traditions inuentions before the pure white loafe of the lords own making Wherefore to conclude all his speech or exhortation groūded vpon this story out of Victor de persecutione Vandalorum any man may see we might farre more iustly vse against thēselues of the Romish Church to persuade them as they regard their owne saluation c. to content themselues with vs with this Sebastians loafe of the first and best making I haue thus thou seest good reader but briefly past ouer these things and the rather I haue so done first because I found no matter in them but grounded vpon shameles begging of that which is most in question and secondly because in my answere to Albine I had vpon occasion giuen me by him already answered al or most of his assumptions against vs in the applying of these signes vnto vs. But lastly by view of an answere made at large by master Crowley both to the 22. demaunds and these six signes also that came to my hands since my finishing of this answere of mine I see if it had beene vndone I might well haue spared al my labour herein If therefore thou desirest any further answer concerning any of these I refer thee to him And thus I take my leaue of thee beseeching the Lord now and euer to blesse both thee and me and heartily praying thee to remember me alwaies in thy godly prayers to God to whom be all glory praise and dominion now and euer Thine in the Lord Thomas Sparke A Table whereby readily to finde out the principal matters contained in the former answere to Albine or any of his fauourers wherein because vntill thou commest to the answere to Albine himselfe the pages are not figured in the top as in the rest for any thing before handled the page of the letter in the bottome of those leaues whereof there are 16 for euery letter is noted for thy direction A. Abbeyes why and how suppressed pa. 287. Albine conuicted of blasphemy p. 95. 96. 186. 375. 378. Albine sheweth himselfe to haue beene of a profane spirit 269. Albines publishers methode in his epistle to the reader discouered b. p. 11. 12. 13. Albines owne methode and the folly thereof laied open E. 4 5. 6 Albines cunning in running from the question 6 7 9. 10. 11. c. Albine notorious in abusing scriptures 2. 3. 36. 37. Albine worthy to be famous for abusing of fathers 47. 51. 85. 86. 119. c. 126. c. 131 134 156. ca p. 37. through out Antiquity protestants rather haue then papists and true antiquity protestants stand vnto 102. 158. c. Auricular confession dangerous E. p.
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34
that thus Amâ—rose Lactantius and Luke testified their good liking of them Wherefore though I be no body in coÌ„parison of those therefore hereby vnable to â—onour you as those did them yet being but as I â—m giue me leaue my good Lord as farre as the credite of my poore testimony will stretch to testifie that way my good will according to their example towards you And thus presuming of your fauourable acceptation of this my offer I cease from any further troubling you at this time beseeching as alwaies I pray and will for you the Lord of heauen and earth in these busie dangerous and sinnefull daies so inwardly to encourage and strengtheÌ„ your noble heart and the heart also of your right vertuous Ladie and duetifull wife as that you both and all yours may be so adorned decked and beautified with all necessarie and comfortable giftes and graces of knowledge faith zeale and sinceritie in Gods holie religion and with all true vertues both of bodie and minde readie alwaies to bee shewed in your life and conuersation that you may all goe on and finish your daies most constantly and comfortably in all true Honour and happines from generation to generatioÌ„ to gods glory the churches needfull example to your owne eternall saluation Amen Your Honours alwaies at commaundment most ready THOMAS SPARKE The preface to the Reader PLutarch a noble Philosopher a This preface for the most part of it might a protestant write against the popisâ— church heresies and prelates and a diligent Historician writeth in the life of Demetrius a king of Macedonie that wheÌ„ an olde womaÌ„ came to him beseeching him to heare her speake and he made aunswere that he had no leasure the woman looking vpon him saide to him againe with a loude voice why haue you no leasure 〈◊〉 rule as a king should Which wordes so pearced the kinges heart and so â—â—eatly preuailed in him that he forthwith gaue her audience and from â—â—at daie none came to him for any matter but gently and with all diâ—â—gence he did heare them and discusse their causes Boysterously were â—â—â—se wordes spoken of a subiect and not with that reuerence that was â—â—eete to be giuen to a king Notwithstanding as Cicero witnesseth in â—â—e second of his Tusculanes Tristis res est dolor sine dubio aspera â—mara inimica naturae ad patiendum tolerandumque difficilis â—orowe is a grieuous thing without doubt sharpe bitter and an enemy to â—ature harde to suffer and forbeare Sorowe as I suppose constrayned â—he seely woman to speake as shee did veras exprimere voces and â—o vtter the truth On the other side consider not onely the gentle naâ—ure of this noble Prince but also his great wisedome in considering â—othing to be more seemely for a gouernour then to heare mens causes â—ndifferently and to see all wronges redressed Nihil saieth the same Plutarch tam egregium tamque proprium Regis esse videtur quà m iusticiae opus Nothing is so excellent and so properly pertayning to him that is a magistrate as iustice I haue redde that the Tribunes which were officers chosen for the defence of the Commons of Rome had their gates or dores neuer shutte neither by day nor by night in token that thither might bee the recourse of all them that had neede of succour So ought euery gouernour whether hee bee spirituall or temporall to bee a succour and as it were a castle and a fortresse to them that bee vnder his tuition Dion Cassius in his â—ookes that he wrote de principe amongst other precepts willeth chiefâ—y and aboue all things that whosoeuer be the head of the people be a diligent worshipper and folower of God next that hee bee louing to his subiects if he will haue them to be faithfull to him and loue him as subiectes should their Prince For it is not of likelyhood saide Dion neither doth nature permit but that he that loueth should be loued wheÌ„ we see dogges to fawne and horses to neye to them of whom they be cherished Againe he would haue such rulers to call themselues shepherdes and feeders of men rather then otherwise So Homer calleth a king pastorem populi a shepherde a feeder of the people And Plato in his Dialogue called Minos writeth that Minos RadamaÌ„thus which gaue lawes to the men of Crete were the true shepherdes of men which was not spoken of so noble a Philosopher without a iust cause for nothing doth more nourish mainteine vpholde a common wealth then law which as Tullie in secundo de natura deorum sayeth est recti praeceptio prauique depulsio a commaunder of that which is good and honest an expulser of all that is nought and vnhonest Now as a shepherdes care is to see his sheepe fedde in wholsome pastures to be kept safe from wolues al other beastes that would wery destroy them if any in the flocke be infected with any outwarde scabbe or inwarde maladie to remedie it betime or if the contagion admit no helpe but is incureable to haue such a one away from the flocke that he hurt none of them that be whole Euen so must he that will be a shepheard of men study for the good ordering and quietnes of the multitude ouer whom he hath charge and that al enormities that might disturbe a common wealth whether it be spiritual or ciuill be expelled and that all faultes be redressed with due correction vsing lenitie and severity after as hope or dispaire of amendment shall appeare Neither hath the name of a shepheard lacked his preheminence at any time That good Abel ad cuius munera Deus respexit to whose gifts and sacrifice God had respect was a shepheard Abraham in whole seede God promised that all nations should be blessed was a shepheard so was Isaac his sonne and Iacob his nephewe his sonnes also Moyses that noble captaine and deliuerer of God his people was a shepheard in the lande of Madian Dauid of whom b Here is StepheÌ„ named for Paul Act. 13. S. Stephen sayd that God gaue this testimony Inueni Dauid filium lesse virum secundum cor meum qui faciet omnes voluntates meas I haue found Dauid the sonne of Iesse a man after mine owne heart and minde which shal doe all my will c There is no mention of Stephen Act. 13. This noble king Dauid was a shepheard These I suppose almightie God woulde haue to be ensamples to all them that be in authoriritie for as Paul sayth Quaecunque scripta sunt ad nostram eruditionem scripta sunt Al thinges that are written are written for our instruction that as they fedde that seely innocent cattell so should all Magistrates that professe his sons name learne to gouerne the people in the obedience of his doctrine that they might be innoceÌ„tes manibus puro corde nec iurantes in dolo proximo suo Innocents of their hands and
the bare and running with the hounde getteth a man frendes but he that will laye flattery aside tell the plaine truth shal get nothing but hatred Thus in these daies vice is extolled vertue contemned Ill rule is made â—f and good rule neglected O heart dissembled which vnder coulour to be iust true canst cloke vnto vs hipocrisie for deuotion ambition for gentlenesse couetousnes for â—oÌ„petencie cruelty for zeale bolde babling without learning for eloqueÌ„ce florishing Rhetoricke without fruit or reasoÌ„ folly for grauity wilines without wit and fleshly wanton libertie for liberty of the Gospell This is nothing els but the deuils drifte alway couering his poison vnder some taste of suger Fallit enim vitium specie virtutis vmbra g This inuectiue speech we may iustly vse of you and your side For the summe ende of all their false doctrine is nothing els but malice with murther to the ouerthrowe of Christes Religion and the true ministers thereof This is their sheepes clothing for an vnhappy reformation Nam impia sub dulci melle venena latent Vnder sweete honny is deadly venome hid O blinde ignorance and ignorant blindnes O cruell and damnable mischiefe comming from the bottomeles pit of hel O intollerable furiousnes and heresie more detestable then it mate any longer be suffered The greate dâ—spleasure the extreame vengaunce the cruell plagues of God hange ouer our heades if this horrible heresie be not shortly remoued froÌ„ mens mindes O h These wordes iustly we maie breake out into in respect of the infinite blasphemies and abominations held and maintained by your side in this point good god how long wilt thou suffer this intollerable abhomination It shameth me it abhorreth me to thinke that these shameles beastes are not ashamed to speake of the most blessed Sacramentes of Christes Church who is able to expresse either by tongue or penne their wicked abhomination whye haue we a pleasure to forsake the true vnderstanding of Gods most sacred worde and become followers and bondslaues of the deuils counterfaite and deceitfull expositions carnall reasons set out by his ministers who in Religion are i This obiection of the diuersitie of opinions see answered at large Cap. 4. so deuided that now they dreame one thing and now another this day they like tomorowe they mislike one is against another of them euen in the highest misterie of Christ his Religion And no meruaile for the deuill is their chiefe head whom they serue and he is full of lies variaunce diuision and discorde vnder him their Schoolemasters were Hus Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer Melancthon and the Archheretike Caluin k Therein there is no proofe that he helde any one heresy whose heresies are confuted in the Discourse hereafter ensuing l This is vntrue These with the rest of that rable did neuer agree one with another in their doings there is no vnity no certainty at all and therefore such masters such schollers come of them And this diuision this vnconstancie of doctrine was a manifest token that they were not the children of our true mother the Catholike Church nor ministers of Christ but the children of the deuill and ministers of Antichrist yea very Antichrists m Which that you papists be is most certain the contrariâ—ty of your doctrine with the auncient catholic e Church considered which I haue noted cap. 17. 29 of my answer For whosoeuer saieth S. Augustine is gone from the vnitie of the Catholicke Church hee is become an Antichrist These Antichrists haue borne a great stroke now too long time in our Realme of England in whom is no constancy no stedfastnesse of religion and doctrine These are they that haue damnably deceiued you and haue with their damnable preachings intised you from Church to Church from an heauenly Church to a malignant Church from a louing mother n This is false to a flattering harlot from the condition of grace to the state of perdition o These words remaining we iustly say to and of you from truth to falshoode from faithfull beleeuing to carnall reasoning from sauing Christ to deceauing Antichrist But good Reader beware be not deceaued be not ashamed to arise that hast so shamefully fallen be not ashamed to come home to your mother the Church sith shee is not ashamed to receiue you Let not folly lose the thing that grace hath so preciouslie offered and purchased Let not wilfulnesse and blindnesse put out so great light as is now shewed vnto thee but embrace most humblie the doctrine of our mother the catholicke church so shall you sit in the lappe of so tender a mother which will cherish you into life euerlasting Choose the best whiles choise lieth in lot What were you ashamed of your preface that you put not your name to it Indeede it is so fonde and friuolous that you might well enough be ashamed to father it An answere to the preface set before Iohn de Albines booke entituled A notable discourse against heretickes c. BEfore I take in hande to say any thing to Iohn de Albine or his booke I must craue of thee gentle reader whosoeuer thou art these two things that thou wouldest first giue me leaue to answere the long tedious and bragging preface prefixed before his booke by the publisher thereof and that then also thou thy selfe wouldest vouchsafe before thou goest any further either to the considering what Albine hath obiected or I answered to take the paines to reade ouer this my answere to the saide preface And though it seeme vnto thee of an extraordinary length so somewhat discourages thee yet the length of his considered likewise I pray thee beare with me and vouchsafe the reading of it thorow before thou proceedest any further His preface thou seest is long but indeede so vaine and friuolous it is that though it seemeth the authour thereof was some bolde and impudent Iesuite or fugitiue of our owne country yet such care he had of his credit that for feare of losse thereof he hath not thought good to put his name vnto it The vanity and weakenesse thereof may euen sufficiently appeare by those marginall notes that I haue affixed vnto it so that if I troubled thee with no further answere vnto it I hope it neither could nor should much moue thee or any other to thinke any thing the better of their Church and religion then thou didst before yet because neither he nor any of his faction for want of a further particular aunswere vnto it shall take occasion to persuade theÌ„selues or other that there is further weight and matter in it then indeede there is I will vouchsafe some more paines about it First therefore this I would haue thee Christian Reader for the coÌ„mendation of the authors great skill to obserue that almost al of it is spent in prouing those things which are needles because we teach graunt defende theÌ„ to
word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles Euāgelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that belōg to truth so that euery one that will may frō thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church whē any questiō should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstādeth that soūd form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which thē would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore euē then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundamētum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditiō was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwritē traditiōs of the Romish church which are not ōly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereūto But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a mā to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditiōs whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditiō though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacramētall chāge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chāged though the same father in a thousād other places shew that his iudgemēt is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish trāsubstantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their cōtrouersies But at this time thou must pardō this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditiōs are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller groūd of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditiōs which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates cōmandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commādemēts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writtē as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemēt ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the cōmon consēt of all Christiā regions prescriptiō of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupō by and by as though there were no
but indeed truth they haue neither al nor any of these in that sort to speake for theÌ„ as he would make his Reader beleeue For first there is plaine contrariety betwixt their doctrine the doctrine of the auncient holy fathers in a number of most weighty points as I haue shewed at large ca. 17. 29. likewise in that both ther also c. 39. 40. in that I shew that they hold many things directly contrary to the ancient generall councels I plentifully proue that they are destitute of the commoÌ„ consent of ChristiaÌ„ regions And as for the last though it were graÌ„nted theÌ„ that they may truly preteÌ„d long continuaÌ„ce of time yet seing it is true that Tertullian de velandis virginibus hath said Quodcunque aduersus veritateÌ„ sapit heraesis est etiaÌ„ vetus coÌ„suetudo that is whatsoeuer sauoreth against the truth is heresy though it be an old custome seing also it is certaine that Cyprian ad PompeiuÌ„ saith custome must not let truth to preuaile for custoÌ„e without truth is but oldnes of error that could do theÌ„ litle good we being alwaies able as webe to proue by the scriptures souÌ„dly interpreted by al souÌ„d antiquity that they are gone loÌ„g agoe froÌ„ the trueth But in deed though popery be too ancieÌ„t so hath had soÌ„e coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of time yet it is but a yongling in respect of that which they pretend And this I haue also proued cap. 17. in suÌ„dry other places of my answere following Yea that more is which will goe nearer then I haue proued that indeed we for our Religion Church haue not only prescription of some longtime but also of all times ages eueÌ„ froÌ„ the beginning c. 4.9 17. And yet this point of antiquity prescriptioÌ„ of time is a thing that they so coÌ„fideÌ„tly staÌ„d vpoÌ„ that in the offer annexed to Iohn de Albines book that proud chaleÌ„ger offreth to recaÌ„t if we caÌ„ shew where wheÌ„ in what yeare of the lord vnder what Emperor by whoÌ„ popery caÌ„e in by whoÌ„ of our side it was gain said which though I haue I hope sufficieÌ„tly shewed in the chapters last before quoted yet because the answe riÌ„gfully to this point the remouig of this obiectioÌ„ wil both bluÌ„t the edge of this his brag greatly crack the credit of popery I wil voutsafe soÌ„ewhat more here to set down to the coÌ„futatioÌ„ of it Hereunto therefore whereas the foresaid offerer and others of that side so stand vpon the antiquity of their Church and Religion that they would seeme we must needes grant that they are even as auncient as they pretend vnles we can shew when where by whoÌ„ a sodaine change froÌ„ our ReligioÌ„ to theirs was made that some of our side theÌ„ preseÌ„tly espied it withstood it vnreasonable it is that they demaunde For popery being not one or two particular heresies nor such a masse or heape of heresies whose property is to burst in all at once of the sodaine shewing it selfe with open and bare face at the first but as it is tearmed 2. Thess 2. a mistery of iniquity and therefore a false ReligioÌ„ creeping in cuÌ„ningly by litle litle as it were by stealing steps that hiddeÌ„ asmuch as might bee vnder the shew colour of holines through hypocrisy 1. Tim. 4. Reu. 13. v. 11. no maruaile though it were not only verie hard but euen impossible in euery respect to satisfie this demaunde And yet for al this were popery neuer a whit the more to be liked For as we see by experience that ostentimes there is far more daunger in those diseases that steale vppon a man by little and little and therefore are not resisted at the first then in those that are apparant and violent when they begin and therefore then are they more carefully withstoode and looked vnto euen so oftentimes also it falles out in errours and heresies that they of al other in the end proue the most dangerous whose beginnings haue beene most close and secret and whose growing to their perfection hath not been of the sodaine but in long tract of time Indeede those diseases that come vpon the sodaine and are violent in their fulnes at the first men at the first may espy and complaine of but so it is not not cannot be alwaies in the other We see also that though it be an easy matter to name the father of a lawfully begotten childe yet no man commonly can tell who is the father of the base sonne of a common woman But to make it yet more cleare that popery may be naught as it is yet this his demaunde be vnreasonable we are to cal to mind that Christ our sauiour who knew best how such most dangerous cankers and diseases would grow and come vp in his church hath taught vs Matth. 13. that it will not alwaies be knowen espied no not of his owne housholde seruants when and by whom first the tares are sowen in his field where he had before onely sowed good seede And there he showes vs that notwithstanding that it shall be sufficient to proue them tares in that afterwards wheÌ„ they are come vp they differ as they doe from the good seed Though therefore it were so that we could not tel when by whoÌ„ popery was first soweÌ„ in Gods field yet in that now it being growen vp therein as it is it being compared with gods good seede taken out of the garner or barne of his holy written word it differeth from it as it doth that ought to be sufficient proofe vnto vs that it is but tares of the deuils sowing by his deuilish seedsimeÌ„ whensoeuer they did it Doubtles the creeping of it in not all at once but by little and litle that with such soft sly paces the shew of holines deuotion that it hath stolen in vnder the trouble that the holy ancient fathers had in their times otherwise in confuting grosse heresies that shewed themselues such at the first and the small suspition if they had marked the beginnings hereof that were in their times that they could haue had that euer they would haue â—rowen to this that they are now haue beene so many great and â—peciall causes why the first beginnings thereof haue beene no more noted resisted then they haue beene Againe this I must â—eeds further say that it may yet very wel be that the beginning proceeding also thereof haue beene both better obserued withstood by the ancieÌ„t fathers in the primatiue church theÌ„ appeareth now vnto vs in their bookes monuments for in these parts of the world in these last 4 or 500 yeares they so raigning â—yraÌ„nizing as they did they hauing their books in their keeping â—heir care and diligence being as it was by al meanes possible to maintaine their own credit very likely is it that as they met with any thing to
the condition of most of them or else if they did it in steade of feeding the people with the milke of Gods word which onelie Saint Peter warrants to bee without deceit 1. Pet. 2.2 they fed them with vaine dreames fansies tales and traditions of men For these onely are the grounds of that which is properly now the Romish Religion And in very deede when they were ordered their especiall businesse appointed for them was to sacrifice for the quicke and the dead which is a thing not onely beside the office of anie true minister of Christ but also directly contrarie both to their office and Christs also For they by warrant expressely from the canonicall scriptures are to teach their people that Christ himselfe in his owne person once for all when hee dyed for the redemption of man offered the sacrifice that for both quicke and deade soly and wholy fully and effectually must serue the turne for euer and that in offering this propitiatory sacrifice he is an euerlasting Priest and may haue no successour either to offer another sacrifice as though this were not sufficient or to offer this againe as though hee had not himselfe offered it well enough Besides herein commission is giuen them directlie to peruert Christes institution of the sacrament of his bodie and bloud For whereas by the right vse thereof thereby should bee offered vnto man the bodie broken and bloud shed of Christ for him to bee fed on and receiued by him to saluation by their commission and intention herein they offer these thinges to God the father Further if wee consider their reading vnto the people all in an vnknowen tongue their praying to Saints and Angels their praying for the dead their blasphemous imagination that they by breathing a set number of wordes vpon a wafer cake make it very Christ and other their superstitious and magicall incatations and coniurations of water oyle salt palmes and other creatures these beeing so directly contrary to the word of God as they bee whatsoeuer here Albine hath sayed of them wee may most iustlie and truely aduoutch them to bee right Priestes of Antichrist and consequentlie no right Priestes of Christ But seeing hee will needes so indefinitely and generallie pronounce his sentence That their Bishops and Priestes bee right Bishops and Priests to leaue these generall obiections and reasons against them and to come to some particuler examples first I would faine knowe of him whereas there haue beene a twenty three scismes at least in the Papall see sometime two sometime three sometime foure all at once contending that they were right Popes which of these was alwaies hee that for the time was to be accounted the right Bishop And if neuer but one of them yea sometimes none of them were right and therefore they were driuen to depose and suppresse them and to set vp a newe they all during their times hauing had manie followers and many were made Bishops and Priests by them and so successâ—uelie from these infinite others haue had their consecration and orders how can wee count these right Bishops and Priestes that were made by such as had no right to make any or how shall we seuer them that if they fetch their pedegrees haue had their originall from such from those that are descended from them that were made by the right Popes This nutte will trouble the whole Church of Rome to cracke But to deale plainely and particularly what can he or any of them vnlesse they be disposed to be conuinced of wraÌ„gling by a cloud of witnesses say for Ioan the eighth that in the ende proued her selfe openly in a solemne procession to bee a harlot by her fruitfulnes for Christopher Sergius Laudo Iohn the 11.12 13. all Popes in a rowe and yet especiallie aduanced vnto and kept in that dignity by their concubines and harlots for Siluester the second and a number of his successours who were promoted by Nicromancy and poisoning their predecessours or for Hildebrand after called Gregorie 7. who the same euening that his predecessour was dead thrust into the place not one Cardinall subscribing to his election rather euen by force then by any meanes else Boniface the eightth got the place by cosening Caelestine his predecessour by the sound of a voice through a tronke through the wall of his chamber Boniface the ninth was chosen Pope by the Cardinalles at Rome and yet as I saied before when they chose him hee was but twentie yeares olde he could neither write nor sing nor vnderstand his latin tongue Balthazar de Cossa Cardinall through feare at Bononia draue the Cardinals to refer the nomination of the Pope whom there they were about to chuse to himselfe who by and by chose and set vp himselfe Sixtus the fourth builded a famous stewes at Rome of both kindes as Agryppa writeth of him and witnesse Wesselus Groningensis hee graunted an indulgence to the family of S. Lucia that for the three hoate monethes in the yeare they might vse the sinne not to be named The like Indulgence graunted Pope Alexander the sixth to a Spaniard Petrus Mendoza Cardinall of Valentia so to abuse his base sonne Marques Sanatensis MoÌ„strous are the incests adulteries Sodomitries that stories report of Paul the 3. And Iulius the 3. his Sodomitrie especially with one Innocentius whiles he was Cardinall at Bononia whoÌ„ therefore hee made being still but a very boy Cardinal when he was Pope is in the stories reported very ill of And the rather that which in this respect is writen of him should seeme to be true because in his time there was one HieroÌ„ Mutius set vp publickely in bookes to defende certaine filthie and lothsome amarous verses writen by one Camillus Oliuus companion to the Cardinal of Mantua to one Hanibal Coliuus that in his time IohaÌ„nes Casa Archbishop of Beneuentum Deane of the chaÌ„ber Apostolicke and the Popes Legate in the dominioÌ„s of Venis wrote in the commendation of that filthy fact of Petrus Aloysius Paulus 3. his sonne with Cosmus Cherius Bishop of Fane and that with the applause and liking of that time Now what Will Albine say for all these things that these were right Popes Bishops and Cardinals right and seemely they maie be to serue the whoar of Babilon otherwise such can neuer be right Bishops and Priests to serue the Lord Iesus But if neither that which he hath saied concerning their comming to their places by the ordinary way nor this vaunt of his that their Bishops and Priests be right Bishops and Priests can doe him any good yet it may be he hopeth some credit will growe vnto them in that he hath saied they haue their places vy right successioÌ„ Indeede succession and the deriuation of it without interruption downe froÌ„ the Apostles especially in their line of Popes is a thing that such as he brag much of saying that that they haue we haue not that therfore their Church the ministers thereof
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
where I rest O most beautifull amongst all women follow thou the path that thy flocke hath made before thee setting thy tabernacle or thy lodge hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepheards If wee well note and vnderstand this answere it will learne vs that that shall suffice to keepe vs from running euer astray The sense is this O thou Christian which art troubled in thy conscience not knowing because of so many heresies which way thou shalt go or how thou shalt discerne the true religion from other false doctrine take my counsaile the which is to follow step by step the flocke that went before thee If that a thousand or two thousaÌ„d sheep run ouer a plaine those that come afterward doe not they knowe wel the path that is made before them Doe not they discerne the way that the first went Yes surely although there be no Shepheard to guide them And if thou doest answere that this doeth not suffice for I doe see diuerse pathes I see the path of the Caluinistes Cant. 1. the path of the Lutherans and the path of those of the Roman Church but yet doe not I knowe which flocke I should choose To this I answere thus set thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the shepheardes and of thy Pastours I meane that a Then we may not leane to yours for this can it neuer doe I would haue thee to leane to that flocke that can leade thee from age to age and from yeare to yeare vnto the crosse of Iesus Christ on the which hee was nailed at noone daies and there it is where thou oughtest to quiet thy selfe and thy conscience Then to beginne If thou doest aske the Caluinistes Where is the true faith the which as they saie doeth consist in the true preaching of the worde of the Lorde and in the administration of the Sacramentes according to the institution of Iesus Christ they will answere It is at Geneua the Lutherans will answere at Wittemberge and the Anabaptistes will answere at MonasteriuÌ„ the Vbiquitaries they wil answer at â—ubing and the Trinitaries at Petricone and so consequentlie of the rest And then pursue and aske further where it was twentie yeares agone They will saie in the saied cities but if thou come to demaund of them where it was an hundred or two hundred yeares agone if they are ashamed anie thing at all to lye they wil not answere at all for there is none of them that can denie but that Luther who began to preach his new Gospell the yeare b This is a monstrous and impudent vntruth for constantly and generally wee say and proue by the Scripture that our religioÌ„ hath plentifull warrant both in the olde newe Testament 1517 was the first beginner of all these troubles the father of al those that teach this reformed Religion Then is it farre from that place where thy frend was nailed at middaie or where hee was crucified aboue 1500. yeares agone before the newe Church was dreampt of And therefore thou maiest easilie perceaue that this flocke cannot leade thee to the place that thou doest desire and consequentlie that is not the flock that wee should followe Then let vs come vnto the Roman Church and demaund where was this flocke an hundred yeares agone They will answere thee in France Spaine England Germanie and so ouer all Christendome And of thou aske where it was 500. yeares agone c They wil say so therefore it was so they will saie In the saied places And a thousand yeares agone likewise and likewise a thousand and fiue hundred yeares agone This flocke then will not leaue thee by the waie as the others doe but it will leade thee vnto the verie time of the death and passion of d This is also most vntrue for the popish doctrine from point to point wee are able to shew when it began and how it hath growen by degrees to that which it is not in a thousand years after Christ Christ by continuance of oâ—â— doctrine and by succession of pastours which Salomon doeth call the Tabernacle of the sheepe heardes And therefore this is the place where thou must seeke thy Tabernacle and quiet thy conscience to the ende that thou bee not a lost sheepe and that thou bee not readie to turne at euerie blast of new doctrine e None such coggers as Papistes in giuing the sence of the Scriptures who make not them the rule of their practise but their practise how mutable so euer the rule to giue the sence thereof by that our new coggers of the Scriptures doe set forth to deceaue the simple sheepe The IIII. Chapter TO this fourth chapter I answere that with Salomon to finde out the true Church of God wee as well as you exhorte Christes sheepe to followe the tracte of the flocke of Christ and to feede by the tentes or Tabernacles of his sheepheardes that so they maie bee ledde on and vp to Christ himselfe But then forasmuch as wee haue learned before by that which hath beene noted in the former Chapter concerning the fashion of heretiques especiallie seeing the same confirmed in you and other heretiques and apostataes in these our daies that euerie flocke is not Christes flocke that will pretende so to bee nor they alwaies his true sheepeheardes that are so accounted wee wish euerie one that wilfullie is not disposed to suffer himselfe to bee seduced by those that falsely thus pretende to learne to bee able as Saint Iohn hath taught all true Christians in the first Epistle and fourth verse to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no which they shall and may doe in trying both the flockes and their sheepheardes by the infallible worde of Christ contained in the Canonicall Scriptures For Christes sheepe will heare and obey his voice Ioh. 10. which vndoubtedlie and sufficiently is sounded in the written worde For the Scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation through the faith which is in Christ Iesus For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may be absolute being made perfit vnto all good workes 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true sheepeheardes will feede his sheepe with the sincere milke of this worde because that is it which they must desire as new borne babes doe milke that they may growe vp thereby if so be they haue tasted how bountifull the Lord is 1. Pet. 2. And because that is it according whereunto he that speaketh must speake because it is writen if any maÌ„ speake let him talke as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule if the flockes and sheepeheardes whom wee followe bee tryed they shal bee founde the sheepe whose tracte is to bee followed and the sheepeheardes by whose tentes is safe feeding And contrarilie by this rule your flockes and sheepeheardes come to the tryall of it when you
Now betwixt Iohn Wicklifes tyme and the florishing of Iohn Hus which was about the yeare 1410 very many both here and elsewhere for following Wicklife were persecuted as namely here in England William Swinderley Walter Brute William Sautry Iohn Badby and William Thorpe whereof diuerse were most cruellie burned Then when Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prage had beene burnt at the councell of Constance for taking the like course in Boemia that Iohn Wicklife his fellowes had done before here in England about the yeare 1417 the religion that we now professe began to gather so great strength in Boemia that the professours therof were able not onely to defend themselues by force of armes from the intended oppressions against them by the Bishop of Rome and his adherentes but also to get many glorious victories against the strongest powers that the pope could raise against them Now from the yeare 1410 when Hus began to florish vnto Luthers tyme 1517 wonderful many both there in Boemia here in Englād and elsewhere continually rose vp and stoode forth euen vnto the death against popery in the profession of our religion Amōgst whō here in England at one tyme in the yeare 1413 there were burned in Saint Giles fielde vnder the name of Lollardes 36. Amōgst whom Sir Roger Acton Knight Master Iohn Browne and Master Iohn Beuerley were put to death After 1415 Richard Claydon and Richard Turning were burnt in Smithfield about this tyme 16. of name were persecuted in Kent and very many in other places of this Land Within a while after in the yeare one thousand foure hundred twenty two William Tailor was burnt here and two yeares after that William White was burne and betwixt that time and the yeare 1430 father Abraham of Colchester Iohn Waddon and Richard Houeden were burnt And about that time Paul Crow a Bohemiā was burnt there Thomas Rhodonensis at Rome And ere Luther beganne to preach against the Pope and his doctrine from the yeare one thousand foure hundred and thirty here suffered for the same religion that we now preach and embrace amongst many others Richard Wich Iohn Goose one Babran one Ierome and others with him Iames Marden William Tilsworth one Father Roberts and Sir Iohn Olde-castle the Lord Cobham Now since Luther I hope you will not deny but the nūber of them that are on our side against you euen in these Westerne parts cary such a visible shew that you cannot but heare and see the multitudes thereof round about you at home and abroad to be such that I dare say your harts begin to feare that if the number increase but a while longer as it hath done of late your Romā prelate is like to turne vp his heeles to leese his glory in these westerne parts aswel as hee hath done long ago in the Easterne cuntries And therefore you cannot but likewise thinke that he doth very wisely prouidently to send before hand as he doth his Ihesuits amōgst the sauage and wilde Indians to prepare him there a new kingdome against he hath lost his old here For not onely vnder your owne noses in Italie and Spaine and elsewhere wheresoeuer your antichristian tyranny causeth your religion to haue outward and publicke allowance to your griefe you see doe what you can our religion findeth still many constant confessours euen vnto death and hath done now these many yeares but also you know that so many kingdomes and cuntries haue giuen yet doe open allowance to ours and defyance to yours as antichristian that by this time you cannot but see your old argument of vniuersality groweth fast to be out of date force with you and beginneth a pace to stand on our side For euē in these Westerne parts our doctrine is embraced and professed and hath beene now a good while with the allowance of publicke authority and yours openly defaced writen and preached against as antichristian in the kingdomes of England Ireland Scotland Denmarke Sweden and France likewise in Bohemia and in Polonia in diuers whole territories Dukedomes in Holand and Zeland and in the Prince of Russia his dominions And besides who knoweth not that in like maner it is now hath beene long in the Dukedome of Saxonie and of Brunswicke in the dominions of the Palsgraue of Rhene the Dukedome of Wittenberg in the territories of the Lantgraue of Hessia and the Marques of Brandeburge besides the great common weals of Heluetia Rhetia Vallis Tellina and the cuntries of diuers other noble men in other places of Germany and elsewhere But they that hereby sufficiently doe not perceiue the folly falshood of your saying that before Luther we can name none to haue beene of this mind I refer them for further confutation of that your shamelesse vntrueth vnto Illiricus Catalogue of the witnesses of the trueth to the Centuries of them of Magdeburge and to master Foxes Actes and monumēts of the Church where they shal finde not onely much of these thinges here briefly touched by me more at large set down but also further proofe out of good authors that this religion which wee nowe professe hath had alwaies since Christ to these dayes in once place or other both embracers and teachers of it And therefore though it hath not alwayes had so visible and glorious a succession of pompous ambitious and proud prelates as yours hath had for these later tymes since Antichrist grew to his pride and height yet it hath neuer beene without flockes and sheepheardes one going before another in the profession of our religion euen vp from our dayes vnto Christ But when for very shame conuicted with the force of the trueth you are driuen to confesse that in some parte it may be true that there were alwaies some that ioyned with vs yet to driue vs from alleadging their names and succession against you you say they yet helde so many different and lewde opinions that we cannot fetch any continuance to our faith or religion from them Whereunto I answer first that we are not to beleeue your reportes of them but their owne Apologies and writings whereby it appeareth that it hath bene alwaies your fashion the more thereby to discredit thē to charge them to holde a number of absurd opinions which they neuer held Besides I say though it may be in some points we and they differ yet as long as we they agree in the foūdation we haue learned to account them our brethren 1. Cor. 3. and so to ioyne with them in that which they hold well And lastly to driue you from this shift we tell you that if you will countenance your religion and Church with none but with those that agree with you fully in all pointes there is neuer an ancient father for 600 yeares no not any writer or pastour in the Church of any good credit for 1000 yeares that you may make any reckoning of that which then wil go very neare you euen
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
ouer all Christendome were not vacant they did not for their debates let to administer the precious body of Iesus and the rest of the Sacramentes to preach and teach the people doing manie other godly deedes d This is notoriously false as the stories witnes at sundry times when there were two or three Popes together each hauing his faction and one banning the other And to be briefe the Ciuill dissention at Rome did not cause the rest of the people throughout Christendome to breake the vnitie of their faith which they held before their discordes The ambition of the Popes of Rome was in nothing preiudiciall vnto those that helde the integritie of their faith nor through the reason of their ill gouernance our Sauiour Christ did not lose his rightful inheritance The VIII Chapter THat which is further alleadged in this Chapter to proue that Scribes and Pharisies must be heard and obeyed sitting in Moises chaire notwithstanding their ill liues doeth nothing at all serue to proue that your lewd Popes were to be heard and obeyed For to sit in Moises chaire is not as you imagine to succeed him in place or office but in teaching the trueth as he did and so your wicked Popes that we speake against neuer sate in Moises chaire nor in the Chaire of any Apostle or Apostolique man but in the Chaire seate in respect of their doctrine of the whore of Babylō But by that you afterwards remember of Caiphas Balaams prophecies it should seeme you were of opinion that to preach and to holde the trueth is inseperable from your Popes Chaire and office and that therefore it may not be imagined but that how lewd soeuer they were they could not but prophecy teach the trueth because these in the places by you mentioned notwithstanding they were lewde men did Indeed very fitly might your Popes these many yeares be cōpared vnto these two they resemble the one so fitly in crucifying Christ againe in his mēbers and the other in seeking to curse the people of God for filthy lucre But that vpon these particuler facts of theirs it should follow as therupon you would seeme to infer that least the Harmony of the misticall body of Christ should be brokē God alwaies hath guided the mouthes of your Popes so that they could not erre in iudgement I see no reason at al. For out of particuler facts rare vncertaine you cōclude a general and constant rule Doeth it folow thinke you Pilates wife learned by her dreame that Christ was innocēt therfore womēs dreams are alwaies true Daniel a young childe found out the vnrighteous iudgement of the iudges therefore young children alwaies shall be able to doe the like Or to cōe to your own exāples doth it follow that because Caiphas Balaā prophecied right therfore neither they themselues at other times could erre nor any of that office The Scripture testifieth the cōtrary For the same Caiphas iudicially pronoūced our sauiour to be a blasphemer Mat. 26. Paul Act. 23. chargeth Ananias sitting there iudicially as hie priest as he had iust cause to giue iudgmēt cōtrary to the law in cōmāding him to be smittē And howsoeuer Balaā the false prophet prophecied there wel it is euident by the text that it was sore against his will and that it came to passe by Gods especial power in guiding bridling his tongue And yet it appeareth after that the same Balaā by his wicked counsaile was cause of that trespasse cōcerning Peor Nūb. 31. and you may read 1. King 22. that 400. false prophets prophecied vntruly to Ahab I doubt not but God when it pleaseth him can cause your Popes as he caused these how wicked soeuer to speake the trueth For Iudas after he had betrayed his master yet before he hanged himselfe iustified his master and the Deuils thēselues oftentimes in the Gospel acknowledge Christ aright to be the son of God but thereupon it followeth not because he can doe it that therefore he wil do it alwaies hath nay rather that which is prophesied 2. Thess 2. is verified in your Popes because they receiued not the loue of the trueth therefore God sent thē strong delusiōs that they should beleeue lies for according to this faith they haue spoken O what horrible intollerable blasphemy did your hart cōceiue your pen to your perpetual infamy vtter when vpon occasion of Caiphas prophecy vttered by him either not woting what he saied or rather as Cyril in his 8. booke vpō Iohn Chap. 3. noteth hauing a malitious purpose thereby to persuade the Iews that it was expedient to put Christ to death least the whole nation should bee destroied by the Romans you doe set downe these words that Christ did confirme his pontificate with the gifte of prophecy with the which hee was as fully inspired as Dauid Esay or any of the rest O what iniury in these wordes haue you done to those holy prophets and to the Spirit of God in them as thus to match them with this cursed hell-hounde Wee must holde that they were indued with the Spirit in such measure as that in their writings and sayings wee must be sure they did not erre or els the ground of our faith which is their writinges is shaken whereas this wretch euen the same yeare as I haue shewed you pronounced Christ to bee a blasphemer and therefore most deuilishly erred And indeede hee was wholy destitute of the Spirit of God not onely then but euen in this also for as I noted before out of Cyrill he in vttering of those words had a deuilish meaning and intent though God by his secret power so ordered his speech as that his wordes might also cary this sence that it was expedient that Christ should die for the saluation of man as there also the same Cyrill obserueth And therefore for this he is no more to be saied to haue had the Spirit of trueth to direct him then you may say the deuils and Iudas had that I spoke of before Why then doeth S. Iohn vpon these wordes of his giue this note that he was high Priest that yeare because it pleased God so to tēper his wordes vnware to him that whereas he spake to hasten the death of our sauiour his word sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning By this monstrous comparison of yours we may learne that it is no marueile that you that durst make this beastly comparison dare compare your pastours and Bishops how wicked soeuer both for life and iudgement in Religion which the ancient true pastours of Christs Church Yet hereby you haue taught vs to trust your lofty and swelling comparisons the worse as long as we liue You striue with your owne shadow in labouring to proue that the effect or fruite of the ministry of the word and sacraments dependeth not vpon the life of the minister For it is a
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
to be thrust out as you haue beene to get possession of his own from another man yea although the other had no right to it he should not onelie lose the possession but likewise the propertie but if it were found that he that did enter by force had no right to the Mannor hee should not only be depriued of it but moreouer he shoulde be condemned to giue as much more of his own vnto him against whom he had vsed the force as the thing was valued at that he sought to vsurpe If one should cal you my masters the new reformed Gospellers to such a reckoning ye might wel packe vp your pipes and transport your fidelie into another countreie for you should haue no other remedie but to runne awaie with the goods and preach pouertie The XV. Chapter WHat argument you speake of it is hard to tell seeing as yet for any thing that I cā perceiue you vttered nothing since you entered into this matter to call vs to an account of our vocation worthie the name of an argument Indeed that which losely you haue vttered here and there against it of the necessity of succession of persons and of imposition of handes as you imagine we must say indeede take place in an ordinary calling and not alwaies in an extraordinary But by your speach it should seeme you had relation to some thing which you took to be an argument set downe in the last Chapter before this where in effect you haue saied nothing but onely in your scoffing maner found fault with vs because in setting downe the ill liues of your prelates on the one side of the leafe we set not downe on the other side the good liues thē of our own which how it should seeme to containe an argument either against ordinary or extraordinary vocation I see not For neither they that are called the one way or the other are alwaies bound to obserue that order But to let your pitiful logicke go and to passe ouer your scoffing in calling vs Gods Commissaries not worthy an answere let vs see if you haue hit of any better argument here to proue our ministers not to haue beene extraordinarily by God stirred vp to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the papistes Idolaters as you saie we tearme thē then as yet you haue brought to disproue their ordinary calling If we would come to plead this matter with you you say you would aide your selues herein against vs with a Syllogisme of Christ Iohn 8. which is this Hee that is of God doeth obey the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore ye are not of God You suppose that we will denie your minor and therefore in that God commaundeth Matthew 22. to giue vnto Cesar that which is Cesars and vnto God that which is Gods and our ministers doe neither of these but the contrary in deteyning Geneua from the Duke of Sauoy and in being the causes of the stirres in France and spoiling your bishops and Priests of their liuings you thinke that proueth so against them that the conclusion must needs follow Doe you thinke in earnest that whosoeuer can be proued in anie one thing to disobey God streight thereupon it followeth that his commission or calling is not of God What man euer was there either ordinarilie or extraordinarilie called to anie office except the man Christ Iesus but in some one thing or other at one time or other one waie or other hee did not obey God Seeing that all men are sinners and there is not one that can truely say his heart and handes haue alwaies beene free from sinne and transgression of the law of God Take Christes words in this sence and so none no not hee amongst you that is fullest of his workes of Supererogation shall euer escape this conclusion If you had viewed the text you should haue perceiued that Christ vseth that speach against the Scribes and Pharises who blasphemed the doctrine of the Messias and would abide neither to heare nor to obey it and not generallie against all that in anie thing are found at anie time disobedient to God of ignorance or infirmitie And yet though he had ment so and it were graunted that euery man in that hee offendeth or sinneth is not therein of God yet thereupon it followeth not that the same man therefore cannot be a man that hath his cōmission or calling of God Dauid was not of God in that he committed adultery with Bershebah and murdered Vrias yet euen then hee had a commission of God and a calling to bee King ouer his people And therefore though you could proue these thinges to be true that you charge our ministers withal and though also it were graunted that therein they haue done ill yet thereupon necessarily it doeth not follow that therefore they were not extraordinarily stirred vp by God to correct your sins and abhominations For Iehu whom God vndoubtedly stirred vp to chastise the house of Ahab and to correct the Idolatrous priestes of Baal euen with an extraordinarie zeale 2. King 9. 10. yet he departed not from the sins of Ieroboam the son of Nebat which made Israell to sinne as there it appeareth Againe it is strange that you should lay these as faults yea as such faults to our ministers charge as that therefore they cannot be sent of God when as not onely it is a receiued taught printed doctrine amongst you in the 5. Chapter of D. Allines defence of catholiques but also such as hath from time to time beene and yet is most monstrously practised euen amongst your Popes which pretend to haue the best highest and largest commission from God of all other ministers not onely that they may deteine dukedomes from the right owners but also depose Princes and Emperours translate their kingdomes and crownes to whom they please and make warre against them both by forreiners and their owne subiects for the aduancement of their religion when and how it pleaseth them For this your doctrine and practise considered if your argument for the causes by you alleadged supposing that they were true haue any force against our ministers it hath ten times asmuch force against yours whose chiefest meane of late to establish and continue your kingdome hath beene as the stories of all countries for this 600. or 700. yeares at the least doe make it most manifest by force and subtlety to bend and frame Kings and their kingdomes either to be at your deuotion or els to make a spoile of them and their kingdomes for your selues and your frends If therefore there had beene either shame or common discretion in you you would neuer haue vsed this argument against vs which maketh more strongly against your selues But in deed and trueth the things that you ground your argument vpō against vs are partly vntrue and partly maliciously wrested onely against our ministers For neuer shall any of you be able to proue that our
to returne to your perswasion of vs to be meeke and humble c. tell me in good earnest did Christ at any time obey any of them you speake of in any thing that was ill and was there not a necessity in regard of our redēption to suffer those things which he suffered and as he suffered them at their hands what maketh this then either to binde vs to obey the wicked vngodly proceedings of your Popes and Prelates wherein onely we refuse to listen vnto them or needelesly to suffer those thinges at your hand which lawfully we may auoide And I trust you are perswaded that Christ himselfe that willed others to learne of him to be hūble and meeke that he neuer forgat that lesson himselfe And yet if you reade Mat. 23. and Iohn the 8. you shall finde that he comprising the high Priestes themselues within the compasse of his speech aswell as other his inferiour malitious enemies calleth them hypocrits children of the Deuill c. And the Prophets though they were not to learne of you how to behaue them selues to higher powers yet they did vse often very sharpe and bitter speeches against the Princes and other rulers of their times an example whereof you haue Esay 1.10 in these wordes Heare the word of the Lord O Princes of Sodom hearken to the law of our God O people of Gomorrah But Paul you will say Act. 23. hauing called a wicked high Priest that contrary to law tyrannously had commanded him to be smitten painted wall being admonished thereof corrects himselfe remēbring that it is writē thou shalt not raile or speake ill of the Prince Ex. 22. saying I knew not that he was the high Priest Indeede one of the high Priests clawbacks who are alwaies ready to iustify their master how vniustly soeuer he deale and to controle Gods seruāts for saying neuer so litle amisse of thē though therunto they be neuer so iustly prouoked gaue him a check therefore wherevpon it seemeth that Paul vpon the reason aforesaied excused himselfe but indeede he did it in such sort as that in trueth he giue him a greater blow though somewhat more couertly then he had done before in plainly shewing that that dealing of his considered he knew him not to be the high Priest But if this notwithstanding you thinke still that Paul would not giue any harde speech to such a Prelate and iustifie it when he had done consider a little what reckoning you make of Saint Peter and then call to remembrance what is writen Gal. 2. and you shall finde it cleare that not onely he rebuked Peter openly at Antioch but that also he iustifies that his owne doing therein saying that he did so because he went not with the right foote to the Gospell And learne by these places not to be so dainty ouer your Popes and Prelates hereafter but that if they doe lewdly think it may well stand with that meekenes humility that Christ hath taught vs that they be plainly as they deserue tolde of their doings by vs. It is one thing to rafle of them that be in lawful authority and to backbite and depraue them and another thing it is by way of instruction admonitiō and reprehensiō by plaine iust and true tearms to let them see their faults so it be done in time and place conuenient in maner beseeming such an action This later might the Iewes doe to Nabuchadnezzar notwithstanding Ieremies words and the Christians vnder the heathen Emperours to them and yet both keep within duety and loialty but the former is that which is vnlawful to bee vsed against any how bad soeuer he be that is in place of lawfull magistracy or office Finally whereas you yet thinke scorne that your Pope should bee worse then Nabuchadnezzar and that therefore the Iewes might haue had far more iust exceptions against him to free them frō their obedience and submission to him then we haue to free vs from subiection to your Popes in trueth therein you are very much deceiued For first his authority as a King ouer them was a power in it selfe lawful though abused by him and yours as I haue shewed is flatly vnlawfull and the Iewes were commanded subiection vnto him and we are commanded as I haue saied Reuel 18. to forsake all communion with your Popish Antichristian kingdome Your Popes for lewdnes of life for manifold Idolatries and blasphemies in Religion and for want of right title to the dignity and office which they claime doubtlesse will thorowly match him by how much their knowledge in respect of the meanes they haue which he lackt should be more then his by so much these things in them make them more intolerable then the same could make him And therefore these thinges considered the obedience and submission which the Iews were enioyned to yeeld to Nabuchadnezzar inferreth not the like to be due to your Popes and other your Romish Prelates The XVII Chapter ANy mā may easily perceiue by this discourse that you haue no great reason in saying that that you saie and much lesse to doe that that you preach I meane to begin the reformation of the church by the waie of force the which is a thing contrarie to all lawes diuine and humane which defende * Cod. vt nemo in suâ causâ jud that a This is your dealing flat for your Pope is the party many waies most iustly charged by vs yet he wil be the supreme iudge in his owne cause one should bee Iudge in his owne cause and you will not onelie be a Iudge but a partie resembling in this him that gaue the blowe to Christ vnto whom the answere was made * b Job 15. b Wel hit again 15. for 18. If we haue done ill c This alwaies we are ready to doe proue it before the Iudge seeing that you are our accusers If you saie that God hath giuen you power to knowe to iudge and to exempt that is to saie to driue vs out of our possession and to cause the people to forsake that Religion which they haue maintained d It is a shame to repeate this bragge so often and neuer to go about in all your booke once to proue it which you know is the maine question these 1500. yeares vpwards shew vs your commission with as sure a warrant as so great a matter doeth require seeing that you saie that ye are sent extraordinarilie as Moses was to redeem the childrē of Israell out of the captiuity of Egypt that is to say according vnto your interpretatiō the children of God the true faithful out of the false Religion of the Papists of that which the Pope Antichrist worse thē Pharao is the head master Thus ye vse to expoūd moralizate the figures of the olde Testament in fauour of the Catholicke Church yet is it so that when God spake vnto you about so zealous a thing as this yee
with great approbation by men of your side to bring the poore Indians by force in subiection vnto you And what extreame force and crueltie hath beene vsed of late yeares to subdue the poore Christians of Cabriers Merindoll and other places thereabout and to roote out the professours of the Gospell and their fauourers in France I am perswaded that the Turks neuer vsed more faithles tyrannical and monstrous dealings then the stories and the euidence of the thing declares you haue vsed against these And therefore it being so vsuall a thing with you as it is to promote your Religion by force of all men you are the vnfittest to charge others with that as with a fault which you account so laudable in your selues And yet as though you had saied so much against vs for this as that thereupon it must needs appeare to euery man that we haue neither reason of our saying or doing you further charge vs that herein in seeking namely the reformation of your Church we haue taken vpon vs cōtrary to all laws both diuine and humane being also a party to be our owne iudge wherein you say vntruely of vs for we alwaies haue beene contented to submit both our sayings and doings to the iudgement of the Lord himselfe speaking vnto vs in the writen word and by the same we haue had our sayings and doings often examined and tried to be sound and lawfull in nationall and prouinciall Synodes before we haue attempted the reformation you speake of And secondly herein you charge vs as you did before with that which you your selues are openly guilty of For though your Pope be the speciall party accused by vs yet in all matters in question betwixt you and vs you wil haue him to be the supreme iudge and so the questiō being betwixt you vs whither you be the church or we and whither you hold the trueth or we no other triall will you admit but that we must be iudged by him whither it be so or no. Wherein you deale as if the felon at the bar should refuse all other triall but to be tried by the principall in that felony whither he be guilty or no. Now wheras yet in this our dealing you would resemble vs to him that gaue Christ a blow c. Your errour is manifold therein it seemeth either your negligence was much or that your wits were benūmed For where the story you allude vnto is Ioh. 18. it is quoted in your booke Iohn 15. neither doe you hit of Christs words in rehearsing the answere to him that smote him nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appeare betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church that fellow Christs answer was this if I haue euill spoken beare witnesse if the euill but if I haue well spoken why smitest thou me And you set downe his answere thus if we haue done il proue it before the iudge seeing that you are our accusers as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and vs you shew not wherein it is neither can I gesse wherein you ment it But indeed your dealing with vs considered he carieth a liuely resemblance of a number of you whose property it is to bring vs for our holy profession before your high priest and his chaplaines and then if we chance to answere boldly for our own defence as Christ did though neuer so directly to the purpose to checke vs and strike vs as he did our sauiour for your great prelates may not so be answered But perhaps you wil say that the words that you set downe containe your answere to vs when we checke you for your doings why then set you them downe as the answere made by Christ to him that smote him And if the words be taken as your answere to vs meaning therein such a iudge as either the Pope or one of his sworne men that we should be drawen before such iudges by your owne law here alleaged is against reason for they can be no competent iudges because they themselues are principall parties Our accusation of you we are alwaies ready to proue before the Lord of heauen and earth and before any other indifferent iudges by such deponents and witnesses as will not bee corrupted either by you or vs namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality in the Canonical scriptures Exemption from this iudgement we neuer sought nor will and if your religion flye this kinde of triall and iudgement God hath giuen vs power euen thereby to iudge that you are such as ought to be driuen from possession of such a corrupt religion that dare not shew the face in this court of iudgment because then it knoweth it should bee foyled But yet to holde your Clyents in some lyking of your religion you once againe confidently bragge that it is of one thousand fiue hundred yeares continuance and vpwards and therefore you require vs that would disswade you therefrom to shew our commission sealed and confirmed as so great a matter doeth require and as Moses his was by miracles which in this case to be as necessary for vs as it was for him you striue to proue in the rest of this Chapter and that otherwise you are not to beleeue vs. Wherefore because all this you require at our handes and thinke you may doe it stil only vpon this supposition that your religion is thus ancient as you bragge First let vs consider of that point and then proceede to the rest which you infer thereupon Herein that which I haue writen already both in the later ende of the preface and in my answere to your 4 Chapter doeth sufficiētly discouer the shameles follie and vanity of this your brag howbeit because I perceiue what you lacke in trueth in this matter your purpose is to make vp with the setting a stout countenance vpon it once againe I will take the paines to strip your Church and religiō of this visard of antiquity which done for al your lewd brags I doubt not but that both the one and the other shal be found a yoūgling a new vpstart in comparison of that which you pretend First therfore to begin withal in that the greeke Churches which quite brake of communion with you in the time of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 which is now not aboue 360. yeares ago haue not yet allowed the masse to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and dead do minister no priuate masses either in the Church or else where reserue not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof nor deny the ministring thereof vnder both kindes to any communicant in that also they neuer yet coulde be brought to allow of the supremacy of your Pope nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation extreame vnction purgatory of forbidding their ministers the vse of lawful mariage in which points now a great part of your religion consists euen thereby it may
of his trueth out of his written word to call you from this newe found pretended religion of yours to the ancient and true catholicke faith which we haue learned out of the scriptures and of alsound antiquity you not onely burst out into this vaine and monstrously false brags of the antiquity of yours and nouelty of ours but also knowing in your own consciences that your folly therein wil soone be descried you cal then for miracles to confirme and warrant this our commission by which you would faine proue to be as necessarie for vs in this case as it was for Moses in his time thereby to confirme his Wherunto I say as vpon the like occasion S. Augustine said in his time de ciuitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoeuer yet seeketh after miracles that so he may beleeue he himselfe is a mōstrous miracle who the world beleeuing yet beleeues not For if our doctrine be the same that the Apostles taught as we are alwaies ready and by GODS grace able to proue it to be by the vndoubted woord of God then their miracles are so many seales of this our doctrine and so it beeing thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now by new miracles againe But you seeme to take it for granted that we stand either very much or altogither vpon the extraordinarines of our vocation and therfore supposing that such a vocation must alwaies be confirmed by miracles you call for them the rather thus earnestly at our hands Concerning which point I haue tolde you already that though in such ruins of the church as you had brought it vnto it bee no strange thing with God to stir vp men extraordinarily to seeke the reformation thereof as he did many of the Prophets yet neither the first ministers which in these later daies he hath vsed to this end amongst vs nor those that he hath vsed since to go on with that which the others began rely onely vpon an extraordinary calling for as I haue shewed both the one and the other haue had outward ordinary calling Besides you must vnderstand that a man may haue an extraordinary calling as had Nahū Abdia diuers other of the prophets who yet you cannot shew euer wrought any miracles to confirme their calling withal And to vse Chrysostomes words which he vsed against such as you in that commentary vpon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father vpon him what miracle wrought Iohn Baptist which instructed so many and great Cities For the Euangelist saieth he wrought none Iohn 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say that he had no lawfull vocation or good commission Againe you know by that which is writen Deut. 13. 2. Thes 2. and elswhere that false prophets yea Antichrist himselfe may and shal seeke to seduce men and to draw men from God by miracles therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof that if notwithstanding they suffer themselues the rather to be peruerted thereby they may be voide of al excuse Wherefore seeing there haue bene sundry true prophets extraordinarily called that yet haue wrought no miracles and also many false prophets that haue wrought them and may doe agayne to what purpose should you thus call for miracles as though they straight might lawfully be refused that worke them not and they safely alwayes followed that doe them Howsoeuer you seeme to pretend that if we should worke miracles you would beleeue vs yet certayne it is that if we should worke neuer so many you would as little for all that beleeue vs as the blinde and superstitious Iewes beleeued Christ and his Apostles for all the myracles wrought by them but this is onely a shift of yours as long as you may to dazell the eyes of the simple For questionles if myracles would serue the turne beside sundry miracles indeede which the stories doe testifie haue beene wrought by God in the protection and propagation of the religiō which we now professe euē this is a miracle of miracles that Luther lyuing in such a time as he did should doe as he did to so great effect wtout miracle yet in the end maugre al his enemies which were many mighty to die quietly as he did in his bed So that al these things considered it appeareth I hope sufficiētly to the indifferent reader that you haue no such aduantage against vs for miracles and you pretend But because your obiectiō in this behalfe is so egerly prosecuted by you I wil not refuse to follow you frō step to step to yeeld you a more particuler āswer to whatsoeuer you haue sayed in this matter First therefore whereas you would insinuate to your reader that we doe wrong in comparing the misery that the poor people were in vnder your Popes to the misery that the people of Israel were in in Aegipt vnder Pharao their deliuerāce frō the Romish yoke to the deliuerāce of that people frō the bōdage of Aegypt we graūt you we make that comparison sometimes we are sure that therein there is offred no wrong at al vnto you For both in vniuersality continuannce of time and extremity both to soule bodie the slauery vnder your proud antichristian Popes hath exceeded theirs vnder Pharao in Aegypt and consequently the deliuerance of the people from that of yours must needes beeing as it is both more spiritual and general then that of theirs was much exceed that of theirs But that therefore it is as necessary that wee should anew work miracles to confirme our vocation to doe this as it was for Moses to confirme his calling to doe the other thereby therin you are both deceiued seeke also to deceiue others For Moses by God was shewed that he should so confirme his and so are not we that we shal or ought so to confirme ours and his calling thereunto was not onely extraordinary whereas ours in great part at least as I haue shewed hath bene to this ordinary but also the thing it selfe and the means to bring it to passe both in the eies of Pharao al others were strange miraculous wheras in this our case in delyuering mē frō your antichristiā seruitude bringing thē to the liberty freedome purchased for thē by the bloud of Christ by the preaching of the worde of God sincerely ministring his sacraments accordingly both are wōted ordinary For what is more ordinary with God then to bring mē frō error to trueth that by these means in his church The thing that Moses was sent to doe was a new strange thing for a man of his quality wtout force of war weapons to deliuer so great gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrāt it is wōderful therfore it was likewise necessary that the means that he should effect that by especially should be miracles Finally there was no certainer way for Moses hauing to
answered by texts of scripture these old heresies by you before mētioned For euen therby you maie see that though heretickes neuer so much misaleage scripture that yet the true ministers of the Lord may must alleage them euen to answere to cōfute their heresies by And therfore it stādeth stil firme that if we by alleaging of thē aright cā proue you heretickes your opiniōs which we striue against heresies which no further then we can doe we neuer craue anie credit to be giuē vs whatsoeuer you would seeme to haue saied to beat vs frō alleaging of thē that it appears that therby both we our doings and religion are sufficiētly iustified both before God and mā These misalegers of scripture which in al these Chapters you haue spoken of you saie you will not staie to confute for two causes because they raigne not now and their heresies togither with thē the authours therof are perished because the anciēt doctors haue cōfuted them as you saie but indeed the reason was that you were loth to occupie either your selfe or reader in so profitable a matter It semeth you tooke more delight in shewing how the scripture might be misalleaged to fortifie heresie then how rightlie alleaged to cōfute the same and therfore you could find leasure to stay 4. or 5 Chap. in that but not at al vpon this Besides if it be true that you haue reported if you had wel remēbred your selfe you would not so generally haue saied that they were al perished For read your Chap. ouer again and you shal finde that therin you haue spoken of some that are not so quite dead and perished but that euen in these daies they need to be cōfuted But you say that with you haue here noted either of them or of their heresies and their alleaging of scripture for the sāe you haue done it onely to giue warning to simple people that they should not too rashly giue ear to false pastors which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holy scripture and the pure word of God so couering the cups of their poison with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken frō the image of the eternal king to paint those subtil foxes that will lead them al to dānatiō If you had indeed done it onely to this end you had not bene to be misliked but in deed and trueth you haue done it to breed in men a carelesnes and negligence in searching the scriptures and a cōtempt of alleaging the same to determine the cōtrouersies betwixt vs and you Otherwise thinke as you speake and we are ready to ioine with you both in this also in that which you adde in wishing the simple and vnlearned in reading the harde places to take heed they fal not into error by taking onelie the letter c. For if great learned men thereby haue bene endangered how much more may such But surely this is rather a caue at meet and needful for you thē for vs if we go no further but to your peeuish taking of the letter of hoc est corpus meū contrary to al sound rules of right interpreting as I haue shewed before Now wheras hereupon you take occasion according to your maner to ieere at our ministry as though in Frāce Englād especially it were generally vnlearned and consisted of the basest and most contemptible of the people you are worthy of smal answere your speech there about is so apparētly false slāderous For God be thāked in both kingdoms you your selues are enforced to feele to your whole kingdoms griefe and deadly wound in the end I doubt not that there are great store of learned ministers and bishops far other maner of men then you haue named And therfore your own conscience could not but tel you vnles it were seared with a hoate iron that they doe in neither kingdōe cōmit the guiding of the sterne wtout cōsideratiō to al kinde of people In both places both their doctrine publicke order of their churches aimeth at a learned godly ministry wherof if in some particulers they faile which in so great a multitude and compasse altogither cannot bee auoided the faulte is to bee laied in the particuler men by whose negligence or corruption it so commeth to passe and not in either of the churches which would gladly that no such fault should at all be committed Howbeit I dare say howsoeuer you ruffle in your tearms of pedlers Coblers Tanners Bankerouts and raunagates and say that such be our interpreters of the scriptures and that we hold euery such one once admitted by a bishop to be a minister to haue the spirit and to be great doctours to whom no place of scripture is too hard because they can rayle of the Pope say al the ancient doctours were men and the generall councels did erre that yet you can neither proue our ministers to be such nor that for these balde reasons wee thinke any so qualified as you write It pleased you but in this to shew your spitefull and malicious spirit but alas who will thinke doe you what you can that you indeed mislike a base and vnlearned ministry who not onely haue held and yet haue as great cause so to doe stil as euer that ignorance is the mother of deuotiō but also vpon that ground haue all your Church seruice in a tongue that the people shall not vnderstand and content your selues for the most part with such priests as can scarsely rightly read the same Truely if there had bene but a crumme of right modesty shamefastnes in you knowing as you doe the notorious basenes grossenes and ignorance of your ordinary masse-priestes you would neuer haue taken this pleasure that it seemeth you did in thus railing on defacing and slandering of ours Indeed by that saying of Christ Matth. 11. by you quoted Ioh. 8. when we see what grace and giftes of knowledge God oftentimes amongst vs bestoweth vpon such in the meane time beholding in what great blindnes and errour a number of great Rabbins and doctours amongst you walke on still we take occasion as Christ hath taught vs to giue thankes to our heauenly father that hath reuealed these thinges vnto babes which yet your great wise men and men of vnderstanding see not But you would not haue vs by this place to defend that such meane men may come to be cunning and skilfull in the Scriptures Your reasons are two for that other heretiques haue so alleadged it and for that this is to be vnderstood of the humble in spirit whereas these men of ours trust to their owne wittes and are puft vp with arrogant ignorance c. You thought good yet neither to tell vs what heretikes when nor where howsoeuer you knowe I trust that men must not shame wel to vse that Scripture that heretiques haue abused Concerning your other reason I graūt you the place is to be vnderstood onely of the humble and meeke in
must needes be graunted you that your church is aswell the church of Christ as that that was in their times you make our fault and theirs one because we contrary yours which is the church falsely so named whereas they in theirs coÌ„traried the churches doctrine truely so tearmed You must proue therefore your Church now and that which was 1000. yeares ago at least to be al one in doctrine which you can neuer doe before you can proue their fault and ours to be all one Howsoeuer this vse yet you will make of the variety of opinions and the alleadging of the Scriptures by these heretiques that you wil not remooue from your Religion or faith which falsely you call ancient for all the shrill noise of our Gospell Whereunto this onely I reply that if now the diuersity betwixt their dealing and ours herein shewed you as it is you that notwithstanding persist in this minde vpon this ground you therein shall shew your selues to bee ledde rather by will then witte or any sound wisedome But at last you giue ouer wandring any longer so farre abroad for examples to this purpose and you will talke you say but of the sectes and heads of heresies of this present time who all likewise alleadge scripture and condemne one another And therefore hauing reckoned vp Lutherans Anabaptistes Puritanes Protestantes Precisians Zwinglians Caluinistes Caelestes Deistes Triniâ—â—ries you would knowe of vs which of these you should receiue And to make your question the harder to answere you adde saying If we receiue some and not all they that are refused will thinke they haue wrong offered theÌ„ For they haue as good store of scripture well alleadged as the rest and if all should for this cause be receiued then thereupon would followe a Babylonicall confusion This obiection taken froÌ„ the variety of sects and opinions in these daies I haue so answered in answering to your fourth chapter that thereby I haue made it most cleare that though you had as great ground for it as you pretend yet all that variety neither can nor ought to preiudice any thing our Religion And therefore vnto that answere of mine hereunto I must referre the reader both now and hereafter whensoeuer it commeth for his satisfaction yet this here I would haue him further to note that to make the number seeme the greater you haue here reckoned vp them as different Sectes heades of heresies amongst whom either there is full agreement as betwixt them whom you call Caluinists and Zwinglians or but such difference as notwithstanding they agree in the substantiallest and fundamentall points of Religion as the Lutherans Caluinists the Protestants they whom you tearme Puritanes Which differences if they be sufficient with you to make different Sects seuerall heades of heresies then as many seuerall orders as there be amongst you of your religious men and women and as many seuerall sortes of schoolemen as you haue differing amongst themselues in questions of diuinitie so manie seuerall Sectes there are amongst you all which would rise to a marueilous long beadrole And indeede he that considereth well these thinges though hee shall finde you like Sampsons foxes tied togither by the tailes with the thong of the Popes supremacie yet otherwise hee shall and may most easily finde that you are farre more iustly to bee charged to nourish within your Synagogue of Rome multitudes of sects and heades of heresies then we both for that you exceede infinitly in number and matters and for that whereas some of ours to our griefe vnwillingly are tearmed by our enimies Lutherans Caluinists Zwinglians c. you delight and take pleasure in your distinct titles of diuision as to bee called Dominicans FraÌ„ciscans Iesuites c. Secondly there are some of these which you here name as Caelestes Deistes Trinitaries and the Sect of the family of loue wherewith elswhere some of you charge vs who are far liker you then vs and haue rather sprung vp amongst you and of you theÌ„ of vs. And this is certaine that all these our men haue beene more painefull to detect and confute them then euer were yours Our answere therefore to your demande hereupon builded is this though all these alleadge scripture yet neither alleadge they it aswell as we neither is there any remedy but that you must and ought to receaue them for the true meÌ„bers of the Catholique church howsoeuer others alleadge them that alleadge them best soundliest But then you will say you are as farre of as you were in the beginning seeing euery one will staÌ„d vpon this that he and his side alleadge them best and therefore once againe you will reply say that to determine who doeth best alleadge them is a thing so harde that fewe shall be able to finde it out and therefore in the ende you shall be driuen to thinke it necessary that the Pope should be iudge in this case otherwise men shall neuer be at a certainty whom to follow Hereunto I answere that the harder the matter is the more paines men ought to take thereabout seeing to know and finde the trueth standeth them so much vpon secondly I say with S. Paul that when you and all the world haue done what you can there must be heresies amongst meÌ„ that they which are approued amongst theÌ„ may be knowen 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly how hard soeuer it seeme yet by searching of the scriptures examining the allegations interpretatioÌ„s of them by the rules of right interpreting which I before set downe in humility of spirit God will leade theÌ„ that be his how simple soeuer at one time or other by the direction of his spirit to finde out who they be that soundliest haÌ„dle them For he hath promised If we seeke we shall finde and if we knocke it shal be opened vnto vs. Mat. 7.7 And as for the iudgement of the Pope or any one certaine maÌ„ or coÌ„pany of meÌ„ because the Lord in his wisedome foresawe what was in maÌ„ so how prone to erre in this case he hath not appointed vs any such to run vnto for the determining of this matter And therfore it is intollerable presumption for any such to take vpon theÌ„ that the Lord hath made theÌ„ such iudges in this case that they cannot erre The ministry of men conference with men reading of meÌ„s labours vpon matters of Religion such other good helps with an earnest and huÌ„ble inuocation of the name of God for the directioÌ„ of his spirit are to be vsed carefully of euery man as he may in this case But wheÌ„ all commeth to all we see no other but that it is the will pleasure of our God rather to leaue vs thus to be exercised in scearching the scriptures in trauelling by these meanes to finde out the truth to settle our selues therein theÌ„ to send vs for full resolutioÌ„ to any one man or meÌ„ least so we should after be deceiued through the errour
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
thereby sufficiently ratified or else gibe at it howsoeuer here you shall one day to your smart I feare find your selues to be without all excuse One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter which is this that alleadging this saying of Christ Search the Scriptures for they are they that testifie of mee you note that he saied not they are iudges but they bearewitnes of me which you tell vs are two different things This was by the way to giue vs a blow that would haue no other Iudge but the word of God And to what end would you haue the Scriptures but to staÌ„d at the barre as witnesses Truely that your Pope and your Church might sit on the bench as iudges to giue seÌ„tence as it pleased them whatsoeuer the witnesses depose But what little reason there is therein nay what blasphemy that sauoureth of you euery maÌ„ may learne by the certaine infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one of the manifold errors iudged and practised by the other It is worthy the marking to see how still it grieueth you that the Scriptures or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes you to check controle your doings and how faine you would bring them vnder to bee iudged ouerruled by you But to answere this your obiectioÌ„ you must be put in remembrance that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge and a witnes but one selfesame man may be both a witnes a iudge that if there be such a force in this word witnes here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses there is as great force in the word Iudge in another place to bring them to the beÌ„ch againe to sit as iudge Remember your selfe therfore that the same Christ that saied here that the Scripture beare witnes of him sayed Ioh. 12.48 to such as you are He that refuseth me receiueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day And neuer disdaine you that the scriptures that bare witnes to Christ sit as iudges ouer you and your doings if you doe the wil not serue your turne For Christ hath tolde you what you shal trust to if you wil not stand to their iudgement here you shall one day wil you nil you be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you couÌ„t him a foole to be reiected that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith confirmed by the ancient Doctors general councels if he bring scripture indeed on his side you wil proue most foole if you beleeue him not This your Gerson saw therfore he hath writen that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing theÌ„of his side then either to the Popes senteÌ„ce or to the decrees of a general councel And your Abbot PanormitaÌ„ ad CanoneÌ„ Titulo de Electionibus hath the like saying But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors to ioine with vs in our religion we doe not perswade you from that but to that indeed which our ancestors whom we may safely follow the Patriarches Prophets Christ his Apostles hath taught vs and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors lawful Synods and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs. This wee are sure is true For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures the sound monuments of antiquity the Cronicles of al times ages to proue and iustifie it to be so against al gaine-sayers And therfore I would wish you for fear of the senteÌ„ce of this Iudge the scriptures though you labour neuer so much to bereaue theÌ„ of that office of a Iudge amongst you that neither lacke of miracles working by vs nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith Catholique Church ancient fathers and councels c. hold you any longer froÌ„ ioining hands with vs. For to pretend all these neuer so much wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge then the like did your predecessors the hie priests Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments kept theÌ„selues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles to their vtter destruction The Lord of his infinite mercies open your eies in time and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word and to leaue deceiuing of your selues others with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen Your childish and grosse ouersight ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull For whereas he speakes but of 70 you say he did speake of 72 those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe and contrary to al trueth of story the expresse wordes of the Angel Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity wheras they must of necessitie beginne after The XXXI Chapter YOu a But not alone foâ— especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past for at this present if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is You glorie in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say that the paine doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues murderers might claime the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the martyrs saieth he not for the tormeÌ„ts that they doe suffer but for that it is for Christ that they suffer for Iustice b There is no such thing there turn the place who list yet I deâ—â— not but in some other place he may write so but no wher against such as we but rather against such as coÌ„moâ—ly your fellowes be here in England who dying for t eâ—sâ—n yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeniâ—ni Cap. septimo writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doeth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of Religion otherwise saieth he the Deuils might attribute vnto theÌ„selues the glorie of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands when throughout the worlde their Idoles were
that it is possible that such filthy heretiques as Seruetus was may shewe themselues stout in dying But what is all this to proue that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church or that they died as heretiques for heresie Before you can say any thing to the purpose either to proue them no true martyrs or to blemish their patience you should haue proued that their cause and religion for which they died was not the sound Christian trueth and faith but that you wil neuer bee able to doe And therefore both al this and what els you haue noted though falsely for there is no such thing in either of these two places out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the questiō For whatsoeuer they there spake they spake it of heretickes therfore it hath no force against vs vntil you can proue vs so in alleadging Cypriās testimony by the way of parēthesis you say we know of what Church hee spake when hee sayed the heretiques that hee wrote of could not bee saued because they separated themselues from the Church the house of peace Indeed wee knowe that hee ment not your Church which is a bloudie house a house of warre cōtentiō a house of error superstitiō but the Church of Christ that was in his time to with yours is not so like as a drunken man is to a sober discreet man or a whore vnto an honest matrone for there is likelihood in substāce though not in quality yours is vnlike to the Church then in both Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites or Hussites you would say or at least I am sure you should say a noble martiall Captaine for minister he was none of them whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites or Hussites for so they were called not as you call them At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet Caluins dearling but you cānot proue that he was euer in any such accoūt with Caluin why you should tearme him so But yet if he had beene so thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time the more commendation was it to Caluin that when he proued an obstinate heretique hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God that all former affection set a part he furthered his due punishment as he did And for al your speech of his willingnes to die at Geneua and great patience in dying I cannot read but that he shunned death there as much as he could keeping or holding still his heresie and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder felonie and treason with as great shew of courage and patience as he But to let these things passe and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this which was as you shewe in the beginning of it to proue that neither our vocation nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs what hath bene saied as yet to proue this Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this The cause that a man dyeth for must bee good and hee must bee no heretique many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience Ergo c. This argument is starke naught for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued but this that indeed should haue giuē life to your argument that ours died in and for an ill cause were heretiques which is indeede the thing onely in question like a wise man because you could not proue it you let alone But therfore you shall be contented for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you to be denied both it and your conclusion which without it you can neuer come vnto You will therefore proue as you make your reader beleeue that our Martyrs were such as died in an ill cause as heretiques and therefore went to hel But what be your proofes Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran in a worke of his but it seemeth either you could not or would not tel vs in what worke for some politique reason you had doubtles mocked at Caluin for vaūting but where he made this vaunt or where we may finde it you tel vs not that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua prouing vnto him that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space and that the Deuill had his Martyrs his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs but they might for all his bragge be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs What a miserable argument is this A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side therefore therupon it shall follow that it was well and truely saied of him I thinke you will grāt me that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both yet in heat of contention one against another Epiphanius burst out into such choler as he saied that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop to whō Chrysostōe answered as angerly again that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres infinite be the examples whereby we may see that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another And therefore God forbid that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another should by and by a firme argument be gathered that it is euen so as the one hath saied of the other But you will say you stād not so much vpō his speach against Caluins Martyrs as vpō that that there were mo of the Anabaptists that had died in a shorter space then he talked of and that otherwise the deuil hath had his martyrs which we cānot deny Hereupon indeed it followeth that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion and the followers of it from the bare death and shew of patience of them that hold it is not good but so did neuer any of vs reason For first we labour to proue the cause good and that done then in the patience of such as haue died in so good cause togither with the cause we take comfort And yet in trueth we are sure we may speak it to the glory of God there were neuer either so many or any that so patiently died for any other opinion or opinions whatsoeuer as first and last died for the testimony of our religion For we account all them ours that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in that we are able by the Scriptures to proue our religion to be the same we are sure we are not deceiued in our account In the conclusion of this Chapter to
done so likewise therein your fault is double For first in so saying you tearme the Religion for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died false which you shall neuer be able to proue so to be and secondly in so saying you would seeme to make your Reader beleeue that amongst those whom you call Lutherans some haue died euen for the confirmation of their singular opinion wherein they differ from their brethren whom you call Caluinists and that so some haue died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities which is more also then you can proue I am fully perswaded The XXXIII Chapter SOme of your godly sect to a If you had meant to deale plainely you should haue named the man the place where any of vs do thus childishly reasoÌ„ verifie that the vocation of your ministrie doeth come of God doe set before our eies the holines of those new Christians that is to saie how they neuer sweare but yea for yea and no for no that they doe no wrong to no man that they doe neither robbe nor steale but that they are content with that that God hath sent them that they are very charitable to the poore then seeing that our sauiour doeth saie that one shall know the tree by the fruit b â—ndeede we may truely say howsoeuer some that professe our religion either through the coÌ„mon frailty of man or hypocrisie haue too too little of this fruit growing of theÌ„ that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion they should bear this sweet pleasant fruit abundaÌ„tly we ought to confesse saie they that the tree being good the fruit is good that is to saie their Religion is good seeing that by the grace of God it doeth produce such sweet pleasant fruite I answere you first to this that our sauiour doeth not euer giue generall rules but that that most commonly doeth happen as when he saieth that * Luc 6. of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh would you affirme by this that his meaning was vniuersally God forbid that he that is the authour of all trueth should meane so starke a lie Doe you not remember what speech he did vse to the Pharisees wheÌ„ he saied * Mat. 15. this people doe honour me with their mouthes but their hearts are farre from me you see that this sentence is contrary to the other if you doe not vnderstand it as I haue saied that is to saie that manie times a man doeth vtter that that is in his heart as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises a couetous man to talke of riches or gaines and so it is of all other sinnes But with all this a man may not affirme truely that hypocrisie doeth neuer raigne in their hearts whose mouthes are full of Gods word * Dan. 19. The Iudges of S. Susan had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes and the Deuill in their hearts * John 18. We haue a lawe saied the Iewes and Pharisees against Christ and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moses he ought to die The zeale of iustice did sound in their mouthes and hatefull enuie did dwell in their heartes And therefore you see manie times that man doeth speake contrarie to that that hee thinketh and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour when he saieth that by the fruite one shall knowe the tree For manie times naturally the fruit is good although the tree be worth nothing c The heatheÌ„ Philosophers liues howsoeuer they caried a shew of the matter of holines they caÌ„not be said to be holy good indeed because their workes were without faith lacked the form of good workes as the famous liues and workes of diuerse heathen Philosophers doe witnesse of whom the holines and scrupulosity of conscience was such that I doe beleeue assuredly that at the daie of iudgement a great number of Christians which leade Painims liues will be confouÌ„ded with the example of those men that knew not God Thus of the first the fruite is good but the trees are worth nothing for their Religion was false Idolatrous applying as S. * Rom. 1. Paul doeth saie the truth of God to vnrighteousnes And as for the second the trees are good being grafted vpoÌ„ the true Catholique Religion but the fruites doe degenerate from the stocke The XXXIII Chapter IN this Chapter you saie that some of vs haue gone about to iustifie that our vocation is of God by the holines of life found amongst vs because Christ hath saied The tree is knowen by his fruit and the good tree bringeth forth good fruite Mat. 7.17 Howsoeuer thus you would perswade your reader that wee are driuen to vse these kinde of arguments taken from the shew of patience in our Martyrs and the goodnes of the liues of the professors of our religion the trueth is though sometime the goodnes of their cause considered we take comfort in their patience and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembred in some sort we reioice therof also yet neuer did we build the credit of our vocation or religion vpon either of these For we know there may be hath bene great shew of patieÌ„ce in such as haue died for heresie and that religion is not to be iudged either by the badnes or shew of goodnes in the liues of them that professe it For both amongst the professours of sound Religion we know there hath alwaies beene are and will be some lewd liuers and also amongst those of a false Religion thorow the force of hypocrisy and superstition there hath beene found and may be still a marueilous great outward shew of holines and piety And therefore doe we alwaies teach our hearers readers to learne to discerne the true Religion from the false by searching the Scriptures and not by viewe of these thinges which therein may deceiue them Wherefore you might very well haue eased both your reader your selfe of all the paines you haue taken about this matter in these foure next Chapters Howbeit seing you could aforde so much needeles paines to disgrace what you could the profession of the trueth I will bee contented to take so much paines as to weigh what you haue saied and giue you such answere as you deserue for the maintenance of the credit thereof In this Chapter first you would proue by conference of this foresaied rule of Christ with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh that it is no more generall theÌ„ that For after out of Math. 15. and other places you haue shewed that notwithstanding that saying of Christ man oftentimes speaketh otherwise then it is in his heart you conclude euen so is it many times naturally the fruite is good when the tree is naught as in the good liues of many heathen
insomuch that I dare bee bolde to say it is as much to the good of this Church and common wealth as if an other such Vniuersity as one of these had beene now founded built and endued as richly as either of these now is And though our Cleargy men now be not able to builde so many Colledges as yours were yet those things that they doe that way though they match not yours in quantity they yet may ouermatch yours quickely in quality For you know in the Gospell the widowes two mites which she threw into the treasury for the poore of the little that shee had wel gotten was in Christs account a greater almes then theirs which threw in farre greater summes of their superfluities Marke 12. And well knowen it is that the richest and greatest of ours are for their places but beggers to them that haue beene of like or the same place amongst you whereof the reason is not onely that they lacke a number of deuises that yours had to encrease their gaine but also that they haue not your Romish consciences which with your Popes dispensation could make them wide enough to swallow vp the commodities not onely of as many benefices but also Bishopricks and other offices ciuill or ecclesiasticall as they could possibly get Whereof it came that of their very superfluities vnlesse they had beene prouder then Lucifer and more wastfull in belly cheare then euer was the rich glutton some thing might well be spared and of a number of them so much as might haue procured the building of many moe then they left behinde them Hospitals and Colledges though you would so insinuate we haue pulled downe none but haue increased the number of them And as for your Abbies other â—loisters of religious houses you had for the inriching and building of them vnder pretence of your requiting of them with your Masses Dirges and trentals deuoured so many widowes houses robbed so many heires and fatherlesse children spoiled so many Parishes of the ordinary maintenance for their ministers and since the liuers in them were growen to such height of sinnes not to be named as that in the iust iudgement of God there could no lesse punishment come vpon them then the vtter defacing and ouerthrowing of them lest if they had beene left easie to haue beene set in their former state againe they should too easily and too quicklie haue beene shoppes and sties for the like filthinesses and abhominations againe And yet here with vs in EnglaÌ„d Cardinall Woolsey by the Popes authority pulled downe the first and to the suppression of the rest many of your bishops and Cleargy vnder king Henry consented and in diuers other places they haue beene also by lawfull and sufficient authority orderly for these causes defaced and doubtles though not turned to so good vses as they might perhaps haue beene if the wrath of God against them for the foresaied causes woulde haue suffered it yet I am fully perswaded to a better vse by farre yea infinite degrees then they were before And therefore these things considered this rather may be counted a good worke in vs thus to haue defaced them and conuerted their vse then a fault whereof wee need repent vs And consequently vaine is your charging of vs with seeking to make amends with giuing a trifle to the poore This is a fault that rather toucheth your kingdome then vs for wee account all almes and other outward good workes whatsoeuer to be vnprofitable to the doer vnlesse they be done with goods gotten with a good conscience which wil ouerthrow most of the glory of the gay works that you most brag of you are they that care not so your Church be inriched if it be with the farming of concubines dispensation for any sin with the rentes yearly for the open stewes that with the which they get by whoring during their liues so you haue it when they die For ther was nothing more coÌ„moÌ„ theÌ„ for your priests to farme coÌ„cubines though they might not be suffred to haue lawful wiues experieÌ„ce hath taught that there was no sin but ther might be marchaÌ„dise made of it in your romish court faire the your Popes a long time haue takeÌ„ rent for the stewes in Rome that yearely a good round summe that they haue bene glad to take the goods of those harlots when they died for their Churches vse it is most notoriouslie knowen And what hath beene more vsuall both in practise and doctrine with you then to teach much satisfaction for sinne and redemption of former faultes to bee performed by almes giuing especially so it were to your Priestes and Clergy men neuer caring so you might come by it of their goods aliue or dead whether euer it was well gotten or no For in trueth this hath beene the policy that hath brought your Clergy to so infinite wealth as they were of and made all other but beggers in comparison of themselues Therefore now let them that haue any iudgement as you wish looke vpon the fruite of your trees whether they bee so good or no as you here make bragges of The XXXV Chapter NOw seeing that you haue visited our garden if a man maie bee so bold I pray lend vs the keies that we may in like maner visite yours that we may see the fruits of your religion Read al the histories writeÌ„ froÌ„ the passion of Christ to our daies you shal find that al those sects that haue left our Roman Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare a Your Romish Church that now iâ— is as farre gone from the ancient pure Roman Church as euer any heretiques went froÌ„ it and of you especially your saying is tâ—ue being seperated from the saied Church then they did in an huÌ„dred years before But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors enemies to the Catholique Church it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late daies I meane the Bohemians or Hussites whose followers you doe affirme your selues to be for in your godly booke of Martyrs b This is vntrue as euery one that wil view the â—ct and monumeÌ„ts of the Church writen by master Fox may see you haue placed Iohn Hus as the first Martyr of your ancieÌ„t Church who was burnt for an heretique about an 120. years agone eueÌ„ as we accoÌ„pt c Your religion and Stephens agree â—o wel that if hee were aliue again you would be as ready as euer were the Iewes to stone him whatsoeuer you say of him now he being deade S. StepheÌ„ to be the first Martyr of our Church Now to know whither yeâ—e of the opinioÌ„ of the Hussites or no that I leaue for some other time and for this present I am content to condescende to that that you haue writen I meane that Iohn Hus did preach your Gospell and made a number of such faithfull persons
thinking so well of your selues as you doe should not teach vs by your often example to doe that which if we doe but once you count an heinous offence in vs. You would haue the best to reforme the rest if your request were graunted you must amend apace or else there will none of you be found in that degree You are angrie with vs for speaking as wee vse to doe against your Popes and bishops and for that in the mean time we giue our selues glorious titles of Apostles Euangelists Prophets c passing ouer the faults of our owne Whereunto most truely I may answere that so infinite and monstrous haue beene the sinnes and abhominations of these your Popes and other prelates for this long time that it is impossible for vs all euer sufficiently to paint out the filthinesse of them and as for our passing ouer in the meane time the faultes of our owne though indeede we neuer deny but that there are faultes amongst our owne for they are men and indeed for all your saying we are the first censurers of our selues oftentimes for those faults what reason is there that you should require at our handes that we should neuer tell you of your faults but that we must withal lay open our owne When this is your fashion we will learne to imitate you and concerning titles which you say we so gloriously set out our ministers withall they are yet but titles by Christ in his expresse word left vnto his Church and of them some we cōfesse were extraordinary and but for a time as Apostles Prophets and Euangelists of whom onely we glory in this that our doctrine is the same that they left vs in writing the other titles of bishops pastors doctors as fit for the true ministers of the Gospel we take vnto vs therw t are we content So that you rather haue aduaunced your Clergie with glorious and vaine titles thē we in that of your own heads not thinking the titles that Christ hath left vs glorious inough you haue your Popes Cardinals and diuers other such strange and swelling names of pride and vanity Yet it grieueth you as it seemeth most that some of vs now and then tearme your Popes and bishoppes rauening deuouring wolues some labour therfore you bestow in amplifying a similitude to proue them no wolues but hirelings and bad shepheards that many of them haue beene a great while yea that their sinnes haue bene the cause of our prospering and preuailing as we haue you will not deny vs. It is wel that the euidence of the trueth and the force thereof hath preuailed thus far with you to cause you to graunt vs thus much I feare me if a number of your Prelates and Popes should come to the reading of this you should haue smal thanke of them for yeelding thus farre Well then hirelings they are and haue beene but too much and too long by your owne confession therefore as you tell them the iudgement of God denoūced against thē Eze. 3 33 is that that they may make their accoūt of which beeing so I cannot see how their veriest enemies should wish them to be worse yet let vs see what reason you haue to proue that they may not bee rightly called wolues Your reason is because in the phrase of the Scripture you thinke there must needs be betwixt an hireling and a woulfe spoken of therein the same difference that is betwixt a naughty carelesse and a negligent shepheard and the woulfe that commeth in the meane time to pray of his flocke whereupon the hireling with you is as the sheephearde but careles and negligent in looking to his sheepe the woulfe is as the heretick and false teacher that cōmeth whiles the other is negligent driues the sheepe from the folde deuours them But you know that similitudes are not to be streatched further then they are brought in vsed for that notwithstanding seeing you your selfe cōfesse that the hereticke is the woulfe we shal well inough maintaine our calling of your Popes and Bishops wolues I warrant you For that is the thing especially that wee stood vpon with you and we desire nothing more thē that you would come once to the sound triall of that point by the Canonicall scriptures whither you and they haue not beene most daungerous heretiques Heresie we account any opinion conceiued helde and stubburnly defended contrary to the sound grounds of diuinity set downe vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures And your Religion to stand consist of a great number of such we are alwaies most ready to proue It is not your saying that your Religion is ancient and receiued and taught alwaies in the Church of God from Christ to this day nor your bragging that we cānot deny it as you doe here again in the later ende of this Chapter and haue often heretofore that will serue the turne in this case for I haue diuerse times heretofore proued the contrarie This is flat euery one seeth it you can hide it no longer that if your Religion be so in deede as you say then you dare bring it vnto this touchstone of the scripture and it wil abide it otherwise that whatsoeuer you say to countenance it with your wordes or with the names and titles of ancient fathers and doctours that in deede and trueth it is not as you pretend I haue meetly well already shewed the opposition and contrariety betwixt your doctrine that taught in the Scriptures cap. 29. and elsewhere and yet were it an easie matter to lead on the reader to a number of such grosse contrarieties more betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Bishops for a long time and that which is taught there For it teacheth that God worketh euen in the regenerat both to will to performe euen of his owne good pleasure Phil. 2.13 and you contrariwise teach in your doctrine of free will That teacheth vs flatly that as there is but one God so ther is but one mediatour betwixt God mā the man Christ Iesus 1. Timot. 2. and you set vs vp a number of mediatours aduocates of saints and Angels besides him There we are taught that no man can lay any other foundatiō then that which is already laied Christ Iesus 1. Cor. 3.11 and your church hath laied Peter for the foundation of the church And in this scripture we are taught to worship the lord God him only to serue Deut. 6. and namely the seruice of praier beeing one of the highest and diuinest pointes of seruice that wee are to yeelde vnto him there we are taught by commandement promisse and example only to doe vnto him and you come and teach vs to worship to serue euen with diuine honour and namely with this of praier not onely saints Angels but also their reliques shrines and images What should I say more your owne consciences tell you that you haue nothing in the world
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
they left in writtng by the ordinance of God to confute such heretiques as you are The XXXVII Chapter AT last it seemeth by your paines taken in this Chapter you be thought your selfe that forasmuch as hitherto onelie in bare and naked wordes you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion that it was needefull for you euē for shame before you made a full end of your booke to yeeld vs some reasons and grounds or at least some shew colour of your so lewd and bold boasting And therefore here now at last to that ende you haue mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers very prouidently leauing your Readers to the examining of your quotations amōgst whom not one of an hundreth you knew either for lacke of skill or will leasure or bookes could and would turne to the places in the authours themselues You thought belike your credit to bee such that they must needes beleeue that you cite thē truely and faithfully and that because you so roundly haue huddled them togither that therefore also out of all question they spake and wrotefully for you in the points you alleadge them for What smal cause there is either for you to looke thus to bee trusted or for any to yeelde you such credit herein wee shall see anone when wee come to the examining of your quotations In the meane time what ment you by this thus onely when all commeth to al to countenance these 4 points your Ceremonies in baptisme confession before the sacrament praiers to the Saints departed and praier for the dead Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question Or doeth it especially depend vpon these 4 and the coūtenancing of these Or was your prouision ready for no more that but once in all your booke you seeming to set downe the authorities whereupon you ground your religion you would take the paines to go no further then to these 4 points Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse your selfe and say that you would haue gone likewise on to confirme the rest but for being tedious to your reader Truely he is much beholden to you for your discreet kindnes towards him that haue not spared to be tedious vnto him in al the rest of your book in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags of the antiquity and catholikenes of al your religion as you haue and with many needles and friuolous long discourses besides and now when you came to the point indeed which of all other was most materiall and wherein both for his satisfaction and your owne credit it stood you vpon most to enlarge your selfe then thus to shift him of with as good as nothing bearing him yet in hand that but for his ease you both could and would haue saied inough This is a common tricke amongst you thus to cozen and abuse your simple readers to weary them with things needles and then to slip ouer with some such shift as this matters most needful Wel concerning that which either you haue saied here for these 4 points or that which after you pretend if you had list you could haue easily saied for the rest this I would haue the reader diligently to note and marke that but for two places vainely alleaged to proue your confession that you neither haue alleaged any testimony of scripture at all for the proofe of these nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest Which argueth that euen in your owne conscience the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath either in these points or in the rest is but from earth and not from heauen from men and not from the holy ghost For if you had beene able with any good colour to haue coūtenāced either these points or any of the rest out of Gods owne booke and writen word the reader may think that neither your zeale to your religion nor yet your boasting spirit which hitherto hath shewed it selfe ouerflowing in you either would or could haue suffered you thus much to the preiudice your whole cause cleane to haue forgotten so much as once to go about it But to say the trueth seeing it is confessed by your betters not onely that this but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religiō which we striue with you for are grounded but vpon tradition as I haue shewed out of Soto against Brentius Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechisme and Lyndans 100. Chapter of the fifth booke of his panoply before you are the honester man and the more a great deale to be liked for your thus secretly confessing the same with them Now yet by this the Reader may plainely vnderstand what hath indeede beene the reason why in all your booke hitherto you haue laboured so much as you haue to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctours and withall haue spent so much time in diswading the appealing to the Scriptures for the ending of the controuersies betwixt vs. You were wise enough it seemeth to see where your strength lay and from whēce would rise your bane and therefore who can blame you for leaning as you doe altogither to the one and shunning the other But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more diuinity but humanity no more Theologie but patrologie and plainely confesse indeede from whence you haue all your figge leaues rags and clouts to couer your shame and nakednes Truely these you haue whatsoeuer in this respect you pretend not from the right and sound Apostolique tradition which alwaies was either expressed in Scripture or at least cōsonant vnto it nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly vnderstood and when they taught as it was of themselues acknowledged to be their duties with sound warrant from the scriptures as I haue sundry times shewed already but onely from forged or corrupt tradition and from the fathers either misunderstood or erring as men So that vnwriten verities or rather forgeries sentences of fathers mistaken or their verie errours whereof they would haue beene ashamed if they had had the meanes to helpe them to see them that you haue are the groundes pillers and bewties of your church and Religion And this we are alwaies ready to iustifie against you before the whole world by sound and inuincible proofe out of the vn doubted word of God interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it that the holy and ancient fathers themselues haue followed in confuting all heretiques in their times by and which they haue likewise commended to others alwaies to be obserued and out of the vndoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers them selues Wee are therefore verie well content to liue and die in that Church and Religion which we are sure we are able thus to iustifie and we enuy not you but rather heartely lament and pittie you that yours hath no better grounde then it hath But to
mercie and Christian compassion vnles there had beene some such great reason of their doings Well then because venter non habet aures the belly hath no eares and a minde desirous and greedy of gaine will neuer be satisfyed I wil not take vpon me any further to wrestle against this argument onely I warne you that euen in this respect you be not any longer found within the number of those walkers that Paul tolde the Philippians often of and then when hee wrote vnto them told them of them weeping which were enemies to the Crosse of Christ for they sought their owne and not that which was Iesus Christs cap. 1. For then he wil go on with you as he did with theÌ„ tell you that your end is damnatioÌ„ your belly is your God your glory your shame because you mind earthly things cap. 2. And in the meane time vntill by this warning you caÌ„ and will learne to take heede for this argument sake to giue ouer to plead any more for your praying for the deade to ease soules in purgatory amongst an 100. other questions that hang vndecided thereabout amongst you I pray you learne to answere this how it chanceth that since the light of the Gospel came amongst vs in these later daies to the detection and consumption of your glorious AntichristiaÌ„ kingdome we hauing heard before tydings of so many that apparitions of soules that are troubled there and would be eased are growen now to gayson and rare And if you would haue your doctrine thereof run currant as a plaine and resolute point I pray you also let vs vnderstand how it came to passe not long since that S. Thomas More and the Bishop of Rochester two deepe and profound learned men and martyrs also of your Church as your freÌ„ds accouÌ„t theÌ„ agreed no better thereabout For Sir Thomas More held there was no water in purgatory because Zachary calleth it a lake wherein there was no water the other held there was both water and fire because of the Psalme which saieth by water fire thou hast brought vs to a refreshing and the Bishop of Rochester held that their executioners there were the holy Angells and the other held that out of all doubt they were Deuils And vntil you haue learned to answere these our questions and to reconcile these your owne Doctours this shall be sufficieÌ„t to shew that you haue neither all the doctours Greeke and Latine nor all the Christians of the foure quarters of the world ful and whole of your side in these foure points as you bragged you had in the beginning of this chapter And the rather because touching this particuler and last point both the vanity and vntrueth thereof you your selues haue confessed in that some of you as AlphoÌ„sus by name haue writeÌ„ that the Greeke church could neuer yet be brought to be of your mind for purgatory nor the Armenians and that namely as he saieth because there is almost no mention thereof in the fathers especially that were Greekes aduersus haeres l. 8. 12. The XXXVIII Chapter ANd if I did not thinke a What are the ceremonies in baptisme auriculâ—r confession praying to Saints and for the dead either all or the most material things of your religion that we oppugne or was your prouision onely in a readines for those that it would be b You pretend feare of being too tedious caused you to particularize no more but lack of souÌ„d proofe for any thing that we withstand in you caused you both thus coÌ„fusedly sâ—amlingly to run thorow this and to passe ouer the rest too tedious for the Reader I would set forth the rest of our Catholique doctrine the confirmatioÌ„ of it by the testimony c If you had done this indeed it had bene somewhat but it being the onely thing that of all other you should haue done and thus to passe it ouer with a brag what you would haue don but for had I wist bewraieth the penury of your cause especially you not so much as once bragging that you would proue any of theÌ„ by the Scriptures of such a number of not only doctours but therewith all holy confessours martyrs which haue suffered for our religion and that haue taught vs both by word of mouth and by writing all that we doe vse at this day teaching vs to liue and die in it and for it d You ground your question vpon a supposall that you could haue beene as good as your brag which you neuer could haue beene and therfore at least vntill you had made better proofe of your cuÌ„ning that way you might haue spared this â—uestion I would haue you answere me vnto this Doe you thinke that they be in heauen or in hell I know well that meere scrupulosâ—y of conscience will make you not expresse plainely that that your workes doe teach and that you will remitte this question to the iudgement of God But this is not to the purpose for I doe not demauÌ„d of you any absolute answere as if you had beene in heauen or hell to see it but this to vtter in your conscieÌ„ce what you thinke of those that haue holden mainteined and confessed our faith whom you call Infidels and superstitious Papists are they condemned If you say yea then wherefore was the bloud of Christ shed on the e For all true beleeuers and for al such of yours that ere they died got hold of the foundation a right and yet for you to say as you doe is no better theÌ„ blasphemy for though al dying in the grosnes of popery were condemned yet it is well and a happy thing that Christ died Crosse it had beene better that he had neuer suffered if this were true If you say that God would be mercifull to theÌ„ because their errour proceeded of ignorance and so that he wil haue pitty of vs because of ours But I know that you will say that we are nowe vnexcusable because that wee doe refuse the trueth that you doe preach By the selfe same reason our ancesters caÌ„ alleage before God no good excuse for asmuch as they doe make no accouÌ„t of the receiuing of such ministers as you are that haue preached the like gospell that you doe announce vnto vs f These things follow not at al for so the foundation be held soundly euery errour that a manholdeth liuing or dying condeÌ„neth not S. Hierom all the Christians of his time are then condeÌ„ned because they would not receaue the Gospell of VigilaÌ„tius who did euen as you doe preach that we should not allowe the exposition of the Doctours nor honour the reliques of martyr S. Augustine is likewise condemned because he wrote and preached against the g AeriaÌ„s you mean I think Arrians who taught as you doe that it is an offence to praie for the dead And to be briefe if that which you doe preach ought to be called the gospell
being on your side but in that they were of ours as they were and as I haue saied wee christianly perswade our selues that their soules are in heauen And you fearing belike for all your cauilling that touching these ancient doctours confessours and martyrs that this would be our answere because you knew it might iustly be so you were content quickely to giue ouer the pursuit of this question and to aske vs this what wee thinke in our conscience of those that maintained cōfessed your faith Religion whither they be condemned or no And to feare vs from saying they be vpon the necke of this you aske vs if it were so why then was the bloud of Christ shed affirming confidently that if this were so that then it had beene better that Christ had neuer suffered This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges whereby you seeke to make the simple affraide either to forsake you or to ioyne with vs saying when you see men about thus to doe what will you condemne all your forefathers And to this end with manie words you āplifie the goodnes of the forefathers what an vnchristian cruelty it is to cōdemne all our ancient forefathers Before I come to the answering of which obiection I cannot but tell you that in setting downe so bluntly boldly as you haue that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned that then it had beene better that Christ neuer had died you haue vttered grosse intollerable blasphemy For though none such should be saued by the death of Christ thousand thousands both haue bene and shal be saued therby better it were that al such as you meane should for euer be condemned then that this speech of yours had any trueth in it But to answer this your obiection taken frō the dangerousnes of condēning forefathers because by the nāe of thē you keep men as you doe in your Romish and Babilonical captiuity first the reader is to vnderstand that an argument takē frō forefathers simply without distinction but as you doe this of yours in matters of Religion is not good For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord saied thus vnto his people walke not in the preceps of your fathers neither obserue their maners nor defile your selues with their idols And Dauid saieth Ps 78. Let thē not be as their forefathers were a disobediēt rebellious generatiō c. And the like warning the people had Psal 95. Zach. 1. Ier. 11. Whereupō Peter telleth the Christians to whom he wrote that by the bloud of Christ they were redeemed frō the vaine cōuersation of their fathers 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good when Christ came sent his Apostles abroad to preach the gospell to al natiōs our forefathers in all natiōs then did ill in receiuing the doctrine of the gospell For their forefathers for some 1000. yeares before had held professed mainteined heathenish paganisme And it seemeth that many of the heathē then vsed this very argument of yours to keepe men in paganisme still For such an obiectiō I read both made by thē answered by Peter as it is writē Clemētis lib. 5. recognitionū by Ignatius ad Philadelphēses by Augustin in quaest veteris noui testamēti quaest 114. By this reason saied Peter as Clemēt reports it If a mans father be a thiefe or a bawde the child must be no other To such as saied they would beleeue no other gospell thē they foūd their forefathers had Ignatius answereth my antiquity is Iesus Christ whō not to obey is manifest damnation That which was before saieth Augustine the Paganes say cānot be bad To whom he answereth saying as though antiquity may preiudice trueth For thus might murderers wantons adulterers other lewd liuers defend their wickednesses because they are old haue beene frō the beginning saieth he So that both scripture reasō the ancient fathers themselues teach vs that it is not alwaies safe to cōtinue in the Religion wherein our forefathers liued died and so easily we may perceiue that this your argument how cōmon soeuer it be with you is of no force For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans doubtles is at this day the chiefe argument that keepeth Turks Jewes from yeelding to the Gospell least then they should condemne all their forefathers But as your argument is naught so your antecedent is false also For albeit that our Religion differ from yours as it doeth yet farre is it from vs that therefore we condemne all our forefathers For first we know that frō Christ wel near 1000. yeares they thē that professed Christ for the most part liued died holding the foūdatiō many other principall points of religiō with vs therfore of their saluatiō we doubt not Secondly euer since howsoeuer a nūmber fell away frō the trueth seemed wholy to be yours yet we are perswaded we know it to be true especially since Petrus Vald his time who was 400. yeares ago there haue beene great knowen multitudes openly ioyning with vs in the chiefest points of our religion dissenting frō you as I haue shewed before And when there seemed to be fewest yet we beleeue that that God that could did preserue vnto himself in the litle kingdom of Israel in such a miserable time asking Ahabs time was 7000. that there had not bowed their knees to Baal that the God I say euē whē popery seemed to haue preuailed most according to the comfortable visions that Iohn had to that end Apoc. 7. 14 yet had preserued vnto him in al the kingdomes and prouinces of the world infinite numbers that yet neither in forehead nor hand would beare the marke of the beast of all these we hope well also Thirdly euen concerning such of our forefathers as seemed to the world to be of your religiō we thinke a number also are saued For euen amongst them there are .3 sortes to be cōsidered The first sort are they that liued and died in all your grosse and erronious opiniōs The second are they that though a long time they seemed to liue in them yet ere they died God caused to see the vanity thereof at least cōcerning your doctrine of iustificatiō so through the sight of their sins in his mercy he brought them to die protesting that they trusted not to be saued in part nor in whole by their owne works or by any other meanes but onely by his free mercy through Iesus Christ alone The third sort is of them which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies that they were contented to vse with you in that they held some other fond opinions with you yet neuer ioined with you indeed in seeking for saluation little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in that way but only looked for beleeued to attaine vnto it for that which Christ
now honour them it was no errour at al in him and if it had beene that he had held but so I am fully persuaded that rather Hierom would haue commended him for it then otherwise But indeed your grosse honouring of them was not then so much as thought of Vigilantius his fault as it seemeth by Hieroms charging of him was that hee woulde not allowe that there should such cost be bestowed vpon their tombes and burials or that any such estimation or reuerend regard should bee had of their graues and sepulchers as then of loue towardes them and to stirre vp others to imitate them beganne to be vsed Wherein if he went too far wee ioine not with him For wee very well allow that there should be a decent and comelie buriall of them and we esteeme of their graues and other certaine monumentes of them as of thinges that appertaine to the deare children of God But with you to tie vertue either to the place of their buriall or to any such thing that they left behinde and that in such grosse maner as you haue done wee account it both folly and blasphemous impiety It may bee when you named Arrians you meant Aerians in whom you oft tell vs that to pray for the dead was condemned for an heresie But if that were your meaning wee tell you that Epiphanius writing of them saieth flatlie howsoeuer they were so accounted of some that praier for the dead hath no manifest ground in the Scriptures but rather leaned to the fashion and traditions of men as both of this and almost of all the pointes in controuersie betwixt you and vs Soto cōtra Brentium Lind. li. 4. suae panopliae towards the end thereof two great champions of your side haue also plainely confessed and so long you shall neuer be able to proue it an heresie Againe here you must be admonished that euery thing that an heretique is reported to haue held is not by by heresie For many sound opinions often times such haue retained and by that meanes haue the easilier preuailed to seduce men by their errours And therefore you and your fellowes also doe your readers wrong in making thē to thinke that because such an hereticke such an hereticke held this and that which we hold therfore we are heretickes For if you should speake to the purpose you should first proue the opinions that wee hold to be heresies and thē shew vs that they were held and cōdēned in such and such or at the least that the things that we hold were in them heretofore condemned for heresies But to be briefe you say if our Religion be the trueth thē there hath beene neuer a Christiā Doctour in the Church since Christ for all haue taught the contrary c. These are but your words and the falshood of this I haue made to appeare in sundry points already And I would to god the poor simple people could read their works indeede for then howsoeuer it please you here to brag to the contrary they should and would perceiue that you haue in this wounderfullie abused them For they should see that for the most and greatest questions betwixt you and vs they are flat on our side in those things wherein they seeme most to fauour you that yet euen therein there was and is very great difference betwixt you and them Wherfore your vehement exhortation that men should not follow vs to condemne all Christians that haue beene since Christ which taught alwaies yours condēned ours as heresy is sutable to the foūdation that is nothing but false vaine In like maner where you bring vs here as men to auoide your argument of the condemnation of forefathers that are so driuen to our shifts that we haue nothing to say for appeasing the people but this that their errours shall not bee imputed vnto them for that they did holde them of simple ignorāce hauing no better instruction in confuting this excuse you might haue spared your paines For you may remember that otherwise I haue blunted the edge of that argument And for my part I most willingly acknowledge that ignorance shall not nor cannot exēpt any from condemnation that know not if they be of yeares and otherwise capable of knowledge the Lord Iesus Christ aright to their saluation For I know it is writen that Christ shall come in flaming fire rendering vengeance vnto them that know not God and which obey not the gospell of Iesus Christ 2. Thes 1. and that howsoeuer by strong delusion vnder Antichrist mē shall be carried to beleeue lies yet in the iust iudgement of God because they receaued not the loue of the trueth they shal be damned for not beleeuing the trueth 2. Thess 2. But you say some haue vsed that excuse of them in conference with your selfe I warrant you not simply to excuse such as liued and died in an Antichristian faith that is looking to be saued not onely through the mercie of God in Christ Iesus but by other meanes also which can not stand together with a sound faith in Christ but such onely as either amongst the fathers were preserued from euer falling into this foūdamental errour or hauing fallen into it had growen to detest it to imbrace a faith seeking and finding in Christ alone the full cause of their saluation ere they died of which two sortes besides those whom God did cleane preserue from the infection of popery as hee did the 7000. in Elias his time from the idolatry of Baal euen in the greatest florish of poperie the Lord no doubt of it had infinite numbers For I my selfe in my daies haue knowen diuers in whom the leauen of popery hath beene so rooted that notwithstanding neuer so good meanes haue beene vsed in their health and prosperity to reforme them yet they haue perseuered in an opinion that they should either not be saued or that partly they should be saued for their own merits who yet in time of sickenes or some other misery hauing therby beene brought as it were before Gods presence and so to see the infinitenes of his iustice haue straight renounced all confidence in their owne works with wōderful detestation of their owne blasphemous and foolish conceit that euer they trusted in them or in any thing but onely in Christ Iesus who now when they knew them selues they would confesse was he that alone must saue them by that which he had done himselfe or else it would neuer be And if the Lord thus mercifully reclaimed some that wilfully and peeuishly a long time had resisted the trueth shining as it doeth now why should wee not much more conceiue that hee shewed that mercy vpon a number of our forefathers who dwelt in that errour of simplicity and ignorāce That therein in a number of things else they erred not you say but you shal neuer be able to proue Neither can you vpon our holding that they did erre conclude that either
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor 〈◊〉 that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs
wordes well you shall finde that hee counted the waie to heauen straight as well in respect of religion as life and that there is nothing more vsuall with Dauid then indifferently without any such nice distinction to vse these wordes waies and pathes both in respecte of the one and the other you might easily perceiue if you were anie thing conuersant in his Psalmes looke vpon Christs time whereunto he had an especiall eie when hee vsed these wordes and you shall finde that true religion was a thing more geyson and rare then in the worlde and had fewer followers then an holy and a vertuous life For eueÌ„ many of the Pharisees and Philosophers made great shew of that that therefore to leade vs rather to thinke that in respect of Religion then maners he had vttered those wordes immediately thereupon he addeth beware of false Prophets And as for Dauid if your argument be grounded vpon that that he placeth the word waies in the first place and pathes in the later if you marke him well you shall oftentimes finde him to inuert that order in the Psalmes And Psalme 109. because you should plainly see that he referreth waies as wel to maners as to ReligioÌ„ he saieth take from me the way of lying and teach me the way of thy statutes And considering that you cannot be ignorant that Idolatry and Paganisme in Christs time was more common then Christs Religion therefore had 10000. that tooke it for true religion in comparison of one that tooke Christs so I wonder that you euer durst thus expound Christs wordes For by your expositioÌ„ he tolde them that it was better for them to embrace paganisme then his Religion for that was the common beaten way and his was but a small bie-path Againe in Liberius his time when it was an hard matter to finde one true Catholique for an 100. Arrians insomuch that Constantine saied vnto Liberius that he alone fauoured Athanasius Theodor. Eccles Hist lib. 2. cap. 16. by your rule Liberius did well in that seeing Arrianisme to be the common waie and his ancient Religion that then was but as a bie-path wherein few walked that he yeelded his subscriptioÌ„ to Arrianisme Indeede it should seem that this Pope Liberius was of your minde so long you care not I am sure as that you may haue a Pope on your side Wel yet if you had but remembred that the Turkish religioÌ„ is at this day hath beene a long time coÌ„mon to moe then your owne religioÌ„ is or euer was it might haue staied you froÌ„ teaching meÌ„ to measure religion by the coÌ„monnes of it or multitude of followers least you should haue so persuaded them to Turcisme But it may be you had rather haue it so seeing in coÌ„parisoÌ„ therof ours is but a narrow path wherein few doe walke then that they should follow vs. If your skil in interpreting of the scriptures in prescribing rules for the direction of men be no better then you haue shewed in this you may very well be a Doctour and great master in your blinde and ignorant kingdome of Popery but in the kingdome of Christ there is little hope that there will euer any great reckoning be made of you The XLI Chapter NOw to turne to the partition that we haue vpon the 34. and 37. of Ezechiel and vpon the tenth of Iohn it is plaine that we are the flockes of weake and sickelie sheepe and your disciples are the sheepe that runne this waie and that waie astraie those that are our a Howsoeuer that title is due vnto them they take it not vnto theÌ„ ill Prelats take vpon them the title of Mercenarii pastoris but vnto your ministers the titles of deuouring wolues may be applied b Onely of such as haue made shipwracke of conscience without anie scrupulositie of coÌ„science for you watch to none other intent but to make the sheepe runne out of the folde and to deuour them because that our pastours haue not taken care to keepe them And although they be not excusable aswell for their silence as for their naughty liues I see not your Patriarchs zealous manifesters amende much themselues the faults that they finde in vs for besides the true and certaine experience that wee haue had by the triall that we haue seene to our cost in this Realme within these fiue or six yeares c Penned then by such that had taught their peÌ„s to write lies I haue read full many a golden Legend of your sacred martyrs and holie Bishops which doe not altogither redound to the honour of your pretended reformed Church And among others Theodore de Beza Caluins successour in the Pontificate seat of the holy city of Geneua of whom such things are preached abroad that if the one halfe of them be true d Neither wil â—e nor any of vs so compare our selues he is scant so good a man as S. Iohn Baptist And because I would not haue you to mislike theÌ„ for their religioÌ„ I wil not alleage to verify this any Catholick author but soÌ„e of Luthers successors your first fouÌ„der who taught you to write so learnedly I would say railingly against the church of Rome Tilemanus Heshusius a minister of the LutheraÌ„s in the * Jn his booke of the true body of Christ in the sacrif writen in Latin book that I haue alreadie noted doeth openlie accuse the saied Beza of great infamy that he did not onlie content e Heat of conteÌ„tion made the man too credulous and so beleeued your malitious parasites that most impudently and falsly haue forged these things of him the fancie of his mind with leading a luxurious a liceÌ„tious life to staine his vow with a bilt of adulterous loue but that that is worse hee himselfe hath set forth in writing all his lasciuious acts the which saieth hee f His lasciuious songs and Epigrams he made and published whiles he was yours whereof he hath publickly in printe testified his repentance mislike since he was ours he hath song in sacrilegerime to the Instrument to manifest his sinne to the whole sight of the worlde And in that verie booke hee doeth say that Beza who as I haue tolde you is a Bishop of the holie Cittie of Geneua is an infamous monster whose naughtie life any man may reade set forth by him selfe in his owne Epigrams and notwithstanding saieth he to heare him speake you would thinke hee vvere Saint Iohn Baptist for he can talke of nothing but of his holie life This same very minister in the booke where he writeth these things he doeth laie to g The more shame for him for it is a monstrous and notorious slander Bezaes charge that he tooke with him to Geneua another mans wife without the knowledge of her husband whose name was Candida h Will an argument from one to al follow with papists and yet this one not proued such an one neither
Thus seeing by the verie testimonie of those that are our enemies that are your brethren as touching the seeking to ouerthrow the Catholique church The principall pillâ—â—s of your church are bawdes thieues and adulterers ruffins i And yet what is more vsuall with papists then to cry out against our ill liues though your liues be such as you haue confessed why doe yee not first begin to reforme your selues to this intent that when we see that you haue taken the blacke out of your owne eies we maie be the better content that you should spie the moate in ours Remember that our sauiour saith in the gospell that the phisition ought to cure himselfe The XLI Chapter WE are very well contented seeing you so willingly confesse it and that so often that you be counted weake and sickely sheepe and your pastours hirelings But the other part of your speech that we are the sheepe that are runne astraie from Gods sheepfold and our pastours are the rauening wolues wee most constantly in respect of our Religion deny it howsoeuer with you wee must be inforced to confesse that in respect of maners there is fault in both And therefore how boldly soeuer you affirme this seeing still you keepe your olde woond in hauing nothing to proue it but your owne bare wordes our deniall of it counteruaileth it well enough You though you haue graunted your selues to bee neuer so sicke in maners and haue taught vs that Religion must not be stained and thought to be blemished for the lewde liues of some of the professours yet your stomacke so ouerflowed it seemeth with choller against vs and namely against that reuerend father Theodore Beza that you could not bee quiet vntill you had cast it vp to ease your stomacke a little You first tell vs that by experience and reading of the stories of our Martyres you are able to say so much of our lewde liues as that wee haue not much amended the faults that wee finde in you And then you come to that where you long to bee to discredit Beza to whose charge you say sundry heinous crimes and that vpon the report of Tilemannus Heshusius a bitter and intemperate enemy of his for the question amongst vs for the maner of Christes presence in the Sacrament To the first this issue I dare and doe ioyne with you in whatsoeuer you haue reade or seene of vs that we haue read and seene more monstrous and horrible sinnes in the liues of your most holy fathers and Popes of Rome then you are able to charge all that euer professed our Religion withall Was there euer like sauadge crueltie amongst vs one to another as I shewed before was amongst them about Formosus Their pride hath appeared most monstrous in treading vpon Emperours necks and otherwise infinitely in misusing of them as I haue at large shewed Chapter sixteenth Their detestable sorcery nicromancie and poysoning one another to come to the Popedome aboue the yeare one thousand by Siluester the second and his followers set out by Benno a Cardinall in the life of Hildebrand is such as we neuer reade the like amongst the barbarous heathen Their ambition to come to that place and their insatiable couetousnesse when they haue got it hath passe for thereby Christendome hath beene more troubled with Schismes and warres and Christian kingdomes otherwise haue beene more impouerished for these fiue or sixe hundreth yeares then by all other quarrells and occasions incident whatsoeuer Finallie for their filthy life I am perswaded that there were few worse in Sodom and Gomorrha then sundry of them haue beene For Sixtus the fourth in the yeare one thousand foure hundreth seuenty foure builded stewe houses of both kindes and not long after Paul the third registred 45000. whors that paied him monethly such a pension that by the yeare it came to 40000. duckets and more And it was no small argument what filthy fruits their forced single life both had and was likely to bring forth that in Gregories time in certaine fishpondes there were found 6000. childrens heads These thinges your owne Croniclers you know doe make so cleare that now euery one almost can name and describe them as they haue deserued For mine owne part I am euen loath to defile my paper with the names of such filthy wretches as a number of them haue beene and seeing the notorious euidence of the thing is such that you your selfe doe not here deny but that diuerse of them haue beene lewd liuers and therefore therein you haue left them without defence it is needlesse either to trouble my selfe or my Reader any further with the rauing in such a filthy dounghill To proceede therefore you must remeÌ„ber that you may neither draw argument from your writers of the liues and deathes of our Martyrs nor from Heshusius an enemy to Beza either against out Martyrs or against him For the report of an enemy you knowe is worthily suspected as partiall And as for that which Heshusius obiects to Beza he had it from Baudwin and Bolsacke and other such impure and filthy enemies and Apostataes who to win credit again with you when for their misdemeanours our Church had cast them of cared not what to write against Caluin and Beza though they knew it to be neuer so starke a lie To whom Heshusius through heat of contention caried to a desire to deface his aduersary with whatsoeuer hee could giuing too light credit as the maner of meÌ„ is to doe but too too much in such cases he wrote as he did As for his Epigrams wherewith he chargeth him they were made when he was but a youth of 16. or 17. years olde published by that he was 20. then with the great liking of your selues And all this was before he was of our religion euen whiles he was one of yours And as he was yours when he made them so since he was ours he hath diuers times himselfe published his harty repentance for the same and that in print as in his preface before a tragedy of Abrahams sacrifice and in his preface before his poemes and epigrams with thirty Psalmes of Dauid reuised and corrected and else where in his workes And therefore for those the discredit is rather yours then ours But if he had continued in your side if he had gone as farre as euer did any not onely in writing filthie poemes but also in Sodomitry and whoredome it selfe all had beene well inough For of such you haue had good store and yet in good credit with you For besides that diuers of your Popes as namely Clement the 8 Paul the 3 Iulius the third were all notoriously infamous in the stories for their most filthie life Iohannes Casa your Popes Legate and an Archbishop in your Synagogue wrote a booke in the praise of Sodomitry printed in the yeare 1549 at Venice which booke since some of you to shew what liking you had of it haue newlie published
as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ e It was expresly prophecied that whē the Messias should come he should worke such works and therefore it was necessary that he should work them and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men the like is not prophecied that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies therfore this is required at our hands without all reason And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse thē Christ if he had not done so manie miracles For we know no cause why you should be more priuiledged then Christ And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles that your liues are at the least as ill as ours f Thus to threatē you we may boldly without shame because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures to be the same that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discords and diuisions that one maie easilie gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde And as g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine shall finde the Manichees to whom he speaketh farre like◠you then vs. S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie if that be found with you it is more worth then al the rest and that you would be contented to try that by the scriptures as he was and then you would sure so many of you as haue any grace quickly ioyne with vs. I saie no more at this time but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken The XLII Chapter THere is no question of that but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe and the Lord giue both vs and you grace effectually so to doe But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne you know well enough that then they must neuer doe it For what company and society of men euer was there but therein was some bad as well as good As Adam had an Abel so had he a Caine. There was an Ismael as well as an Isaac in Abrahams house And Isaac had an Esau as well as a Iacob Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom one that looked backe And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas Yea Christ hath taught vs by the parable of the good seede and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies of bad with good But you charge vs further that amongst vs there are many kinde of vsuries and interests and that though one way we care not for your images yet we loue them so well an other way that we haue robbed your churches of them Whereunto my answere is that we cānot deny but there are too many amongst vs who by such vnlawfull meanes seeke to enrich thēselues and that there are too too many profane and carnall men that haue our religiō in their mouthes who by their lewd conuersation dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ we are most hartely sory for it and dayly pray vnto God for amendmēt thereof But this we must tell you that we preach against al sinne impiety whatsoeuer and namely against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of And our Religion and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing therefore we are wronged that in these things we generally or our religiō at al should be charged Surely many of our vsurers extreame dealing men amongst vs are either men of no Religion or yours rather then ours neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit that in those common weales vsury lieth dead and buried Sure I am your Popes haue beene for a long time the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world in that they haue sold their palles their lead and other their hallowed ware which are indeede trifles and thinges of no valewe for such summes of money and gold as they haue You flatly slaunder vs in saying that there are some of vs that affirme we are wholy without spot or sinne For we both detest that opinion and count them that should holde so euen worthy to be detested for their so holding Yet you say if it were so that ought not to moue you to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers What a sound ground of Religion forefathers without distinction is I haue shewed sufficiently already In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne to distinguish betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers the Apostles and their successours in doctrine and life in the primitiue church and the later forefathers and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further then they haue followed the former and then the danger of this dart is auoided And that it is reason we should follow them no further we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ But you haue a further reason not to be moued from your Religion for our life were it neuer so Godly because Christ though he was without sin and confirmed his doctrine both by the anciēt scriptures and Iohn Baptists testimony yet he saied that if he had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer mā did before him they had had no sinne Iohn 15.24 For hereof you gather that you may securely whatsoeuer we say vnto you or howsoeuer we liue refuse vs and our Religion and continue in your owne still as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles For you know no cause you say why we should be more priuiledged then Christ This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it Where I haue shewed you amōgst diuers other reasons that there was this especiall reasō that Christ should worke such miracles as he did to proue himselfe the Messias because expressely the Prophets had prophecied that he so should when he came which reason you cannot shew why now wee should work miracles For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess 2.
and by Iohn Reuel 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon shew onely that the Lorde would doe it by the spirit of his mouth in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell That therefore is it onely that we are to approue our selues by to be the men that the Lorde will vse to that purpose And yet herein we take not vpon vs greater priuiledge then Christ For we accoūt that an especiall priuiledge of his that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles as that after the confirmation of it so by him his Apostles and the recording of it in the new Testament as it is it should thenceforth stand so firme that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity amongst them especially that pretend they reuerence and receaue the scriptures as you would seeme to doe euer to require miracles more to confirme the same doctrine by You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise yet you shal be at the least without blame for your not receiuing of ours because we work no miracles Deceiue not your selues It is not with you now in respect of vs and our doctrine as it was then with the Iewes in respect of him and his Then that he was the particuler person of the Messias that therefore he being come the ceremonies of Moses law should cease and giue place to his sacraments c was a thing to be proued that by miracles because it was before prophecied whereas now those things long ago haue beene sufficiently confirmed and therefore we preaching vnto you no other doctrine but that so already confirmed and requiring no further to be credited then we can so proue our doctrine especially seeing the prophecies cōcerning these later daies shew rather y◠Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come and seeke to preuaile by miracles then the Lords faithful pastours you haue no such reason as they had nor indeed any at all to require miracles at our hands But you say vnto vs as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees contra epist Fundam cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio with you there is no other sound but promise that you haue the truth Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow and you are answered For he addeth which yet if you can make appeare is so cleare of your side that it may not be doubted of is to be preferred before all those things that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church Be you of this minde once with Augustine and then learne this one other lesson of him do vnitate ecclesiae contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari I will not haue demonstration made of the church by humane documents but by the diuine oracles And so say vnto vs as he saied there vnto Petilian let vs seeke the Church and so discusse our cause by the scriptures beholde they are common vnto vs both beholde there we haue knowen Christ beholde there we haue knowen the church c. Take this course once with vs and I doubt not whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary but we shall thereby be able to iustifie both our vocation and Religion and to make it appeare that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth with you and the Manichees but the very trueth it selfe And this being proued thē you must yeelde with Augustine that it is to be preferred before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer that haue kept you hitherto in an other Religion and church yea then you must confesse notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs of nouelty paucity iars in opinion and whatsoeuer else yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs in receauing of this trueth Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go and enter once into this question with vs in earnest whether your Religion or ours be the trueth and for the triall thereof will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them colour your refusing thus to doe with what colours possibly you can you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause and euidently shewe that you onely seeke shifts hoales and corners to escape as long as you may the discredit therof And your owne frends will they nill they shal be inforced to see the same You conclude with prayer that we may drawe as neare you as we are farre from you and that we may turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your hurt and our owne you say we haue forsaken Insteede of Amen to yours I beseech the Lord of all mercies and father of our Lord Iesus Christ that it would please him of his infinit goodnes and mercy euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake to open the eies of your mindes and so to touch your hearts as that you may haue grace with vs to come out of Babylon and to leaue that garish whore of Rome with all her abhominations and so to ioyne with vs in the true communion of Saints and fellowship of the trueth and spirit that both you and we may dwell togither as brethren in one house agree and growe togither as members of one body rest togither as sheepe of one flocke vnder one father God almighty vnder one head shepheard Christ Iesus through the mighty working of the holy Ghost to Gods glory and our owne euerlasting comfort Amen FINIS A short answere to a new offer not published at the first when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands whereunto it is now annexed the ground and matter whereof is an enumeration of six certaine and assured signes and tokens as the offerer calleth them of Antichristians false prophets heretiques and schismatiques mentioned in diuerse places of the scripture COncerning these sixe signes welbeloued this is his offer that if by the learned protestāt they can be proued more aptly and truely to agree to him his fellowes of the commō knowen catholick church of Christ thē vnto the protestāts of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations that then he wil submit yeelde recant and not before Learned protestant I take my selfe to be none howbeit finding as I did when I tooke first in hand to answer Iohn de Albines former discourse that the publisher thereof had therewithall published not only the offer of a proud papist to a learned protestant cōsisting of 22. challenges or demaunds long ago answered by the men aboue named but also with this new addition of these six signes and then not vnderstanding though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgst vs in English that any learned or vnlearned had vouchsafed to answer it though I thought it needles to answer againe the offer of 22. demaunds so wel answered by the foresaied mē before that the authour thereof neuer since had pleasure to reply I thought it yet
not amisse vnto my former answer to Iohn de Albine to annex this short answer thereunto His first signe of such as hee speaketh of hee saieth is their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Christ wherin they were baptized first receaued christiā faith and religiō and this to be such a signe he proueth out of the second chapter of S. Iohns first Epistle where he speaking of such saieth they departed frō vs but they were not of vs for if they had they would stil haue cōtinued with vs. Wherupon he thinketh that forasmuch as hee saieth wee cannot deny but that wee are the men that haue thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church faith and religion wherein we were first baptized and that wee cannot say that they haue so departed from vs they still remaining in the same church faith and Religion that they first receaued that of necessity we must be enforced to graunt that this signe agreeth to vs and not to them This good Christian that he hath saied were of fome force if he any or all his fellowes togither were euer able to proue that they their church faith and Religion were such as Saint Iohn spake of when he so taxed men for their departure therfrom but seeing onely most beggerly all the packe of them this being the maine question betwixt them and vs alwaies take this for graunted them euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it which we will neuer graunt them nor they shall euer be able to winne at our hands all that he hath saied herein is childish and vaine For we are alwaies most ready and willing to ioyne this issue with them for and about al the controuersies amongst vs that if we be not able by due conference of the Catholique and Apostolique doctrine taught by the Apostles Apostolicke men in the primitiue church testified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings with ours that we are of the same common knowen Catholique Church faith and Religion that they were and that the Romish Church in the thinges wherein wee differ from them is cleane departed from them and from the church of Christ her faith and Religion that then was that then we will as he saieth most willingly submit our selues yeelde and recant And I hope in answering of Iohn de Albine vpon occasion in sundry places I haue so shewed the agreeablenesse of our faith and Religion with the Apostles and the manifolde disagreements of the Church of Rome that nowe is from them and the ancient church of Rome planted by them as that euery one euen thereby sufficiently may see that not wee but they are the men that Saint Iohn spake of that haue departed from the true Church of Christ faith and Religion and that therefore this signe doeth so farre better agree to Papists then to vs that if this offerer will be as good as his worde hee must presentlie submit himselfe yeelde and recant In the meane time the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christs and his Apostles made manifest vnto vs by the view of the scriptures thēselues and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now and the ancient churches of Rome for sixe hundreth yeares after Christ at the least made likewise euident vnto vs by all sound monuments of antiquity haue assured vs that in respect of them and their Romish Synagogue in these later daies to embolden vs to doe as we haue God from heauen by an Angel saied vnto vs go out of her my people least you be pertakers of her sinnes and so receaue of her punishments Apoc. 18. vers 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham to follow the Lordes calling Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea and to forsake the abhominatiō thereof as it was wisedome for Lot at the admonition of the Angels to go out of Sodom Gen. 19. and as it was necessary that Christ and his should separate thēselues from the high Priests Scribes and Pharisees and their errours and superstitions though they then their followers bragged that they were the people of God his church so was it meete requisite for vs to depart as we haue from their Popish church and the popery thereof And as for our receauing our baptisme amongst them that bindeth vs no more to hold cōmunion with thē still in their false erronious religion then the receauing of circumcision bound Christ his Apostles those of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine to continue felowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptisme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās or any other such like bound thē that were baptised by such y◠they might not separate themselues frō such to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Christ Againe if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion whereof they were that baptized them why doe they labour by their Iesuits seminaries to seduce to their Religion such as we haue baptized But yet to touch them more neerely for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first receaued let euen their owne Baptisme and their faith and Religion that they after professe bee compared togither and the contrary will appeare For they being al baptized in the name onely of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost as it is well knowen they are thereby they are bounde onely to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity and Vnitie in Trinity and yet afterwardes all the sort of them notwithstanding the Apostles Creede and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same become plaine apostataes from this faith in beleeuing in a number both of persons and thinges that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father God the Sonne or God the holy Ghost Proofe and most palpable demonstration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits merits of others Popes pardons halowed water other halowed things their beliefe in and therefore praying vnto Saints Angels In the wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles this forme of baptisme these creeds were preserued continued amongst thē not only to make it euen thereby euident whatsoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer so oft that they are the men that daily depart both frō the faith of Christ first taught them their forefathers and after particulerly in their baptisme cōfirmed to euery one of them but also to make thē before both God man without all excuse of their so grosse apostacy from the same notwithstāding Wheras they know all the world els that knoweth vs know that we simply continue in this faith first deliuered vntd vs briefly by the holy catholique church in these creeds daily sealed vnto vs in our baptisme that euen for that it is that we are so hated and persecuted of
to offer him againe to his father If by penance he vnderstand repentance we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof For we most earnestly call for both but if by penance be vnderstood either voluntary or enioyned penance as they commonly take it ioyned with an opinion thereby either to satisfie for sinnes past or to merit at Gods hand because we know that such penance and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God because thereby Christ is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect sauiour in by himselfe alone that is due vnto him then we graunt as we haue iust cause we preach against it Otherwise fasting straightnes of life watching and lawfull vowes to make vs more ready feruent in holy prayer we commend and vrge Indeed praying to Saints because we haue neither example coÌ„mandement nor promise in Gods book to encourage vs thereunto but all to the contrary we condemne as grosse idolatry and likewise prayer for soules departed as they vse it to relieue foules in purgatory for the same reasons and sundry other we preach against But what we teach of these two points and what not and what reasons we haue for our so doing and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answere to Albine where I haue at large shewed these things And thus much therfore for this 3 signe The next is to bring a schisme into the Church coÌ„trary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor 1. and that such a schisme as wherby not onely one member shall be seperated from an other but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ Iesus which we to haue done in seperating our selues from their Church not they hee assumeth and so concludeth when the learned protestant can shew the coÌ„trary that he wil recant and not before Still thus thou maiest see good reader that this man is no changling For vnles that be graÌ„ted him which is the maine point betwixt vs that their Church is the true Church of Christ their doctrine the sound catholicke faith and religion he hath no ground or foundation for any thing he saieth For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine that euery one straight is authour of such a schisme as he here speaketh of that by doctrine draweth others from euery society or company inuesting themselues with the name of the Church and bragging that they haue the trueth For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer coÌ„mâ—â—tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes that then I am sure bragged as confidently of both these as this man and his fellowes doe now Or what would he say to those ancieÌ„t catholicks after Liberius time that when Arrianisme had in great part ouer run the world and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged theÌ„selues to be the onely 〈◊〉 catholicks disgracing theÌ„ that were so indeed with the name of Omousians that yet though they had got both bishops and emperours so many and so fast of their opinion that they had in ten seuerall councels goe sentence of their side ceased not labouring and traueling vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them and to ioine with the poore persecuted contempt the number that then yet persecuted in the trueth I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this count either Christ and his Apostles or these ancient catholicks antichristian heretickes or schismatiques And our drawing of meÌ„ by our doctrine now in these later daies from them is nothing else in trueth but an imitating as nigh as we can these renoumed and vndoubted good presidents examples that so the kingdome of Antichrist according to Saint Pauls prophesie might fal into consumption 2. Thessalonians 2 and that great Babylon might yet at leÌ„gth as it was reuealed vnto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14. fall and come downe For not onely we saw that the Church of Rome had made a schisme but such an apostasie euen in the fundamentall points of Christian religion from Christ and his Church that there was no remedy but that we must breake of from her as we did or else we could neuer haue communioÌ„ indeed in Christ with his true Church Though therefore we know and at the first knew that peace vnity and concord were pretious things and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for yet knowing withall as we doe did that it is vnity in verity and not in errour impiety with Christ not with Antichrist that is so much to be set by blame vs not for chusing rather according to these good exaÌ„ples to haue war with men then with God discord with Antichrist and al hes bread then with Christ and his members We grauÌ„t them therfore that to bring into the Church such a schisme as shal make diuision not onely amoÌ„gst Christs meÌ„bers but also of the body from the head is indeed an vndoubted signe of antichristian heretickes but wheras he taketh this for grauÌ„ted that this we haue done in departing froÌ„ theÌ„ as we haue that we deny For we teach men to hold hold our selues that faith religion as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament that alwaies the true Church of Christ hath held and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongst themselues is vnity and also knitteth theÌ„ and their head Christ so fast together as that no popish or antichristian tiranny shall euer be able to seuer them And howesoeuer this proude challengeâ— thought wtâ—â— impossible thing for the learned protestant to proue that they haue brought into the Church such a schisme as hee speaketh of I the vnlearnedst often thousande doubt not that I am very well able to doe it For this is most certaine and cleare Iesus Christ the Sauiour of the worlde indeede is at this point beeing euery waie so able and willing as he did in his owne person and by himselfe alone to go through with the office of a most perfect Sauiour of mankinde that either so hee must bee beleeued in and trusted vnto for that matter or else hee taketh himselfe antichristianlie robbed of that 〈◊〉 and glory that is due vnto him and therefore wil be no part of a sauiour at all to such That this is most true appeareth because it is writed that God is so iealouse of his owne honour and glory that hee wil not abide that any should therein bee pertaker with him or rob him of any ioâ—t therof Esay 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared Matthew the twenty two that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation Actes 4. that hee is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reu. 1. that he is the authour finisher of our faith Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for
defy detest theÌ„ their frantick opinions as much as any and of all men we haue beene the forwardest in writing against them And therefore they doe vs the more wrong when at any time they aggrauate this obiection against vs by charging vs to haue such amongst vs whom thus we shunne and mislike aswell as they Thus much therfore let suffice for answere to this fourth signe and now let vs proceede to the next The next is not to obey but resist the Prelates of the Church which hee would proue so to bee by Pauls saying 2. Tim. 3. like as Iannes and â—ambres resisted Moses so doe these resist the trueth being men of corrupt mindes reprobates in faith of which fault when the learned protestant can proue them guilty and vs cleare he promiseth to recant It seemeth the man in alleadging this text did trust his memory too much for twise he hath writen MaÌ„bres for IaÌ„bres but if that were all his fault here it were a small matter But here againe according to his old woont he must haue it freely giueÌ„ and granted him for he bringeth nothing at all to proue it that their Bishops and Prelates are all such as Moses Paul was that is faithfull in teaching only Gods people the truth For vnles this be yeelded him it neither may be granted him that he rightly applieth his text nor this signe against vs. But he knoweth well enough and so doe all the packe of theÌ„ that we are so far from being so prodigall in our gifts vnto them that we hold their prelates bishops Priests to be very IaÌ„nes Iambres in resisting our Bishops and ministers in teaching the same truth that they haue learned of Moses Paul and that therefore we thinke no better of them then of men of corrupt mindes reprobate in the faith For which cause we are sure we both may and ought to disobey them and resist them as we doe For so we finde that Esay Hieremy Amos Michaiah Christ and his Apostles in their times refused to obey and resisted the false doctrine of the false Prophets and high Priests that theÌ„ were What a vanity is it therefore in this man to trouble his reader with such colde and poore stuffe as this is And truely hee hath no better happe in the last then in any of the former For setting it downe that ficklenesse and slipperinesse of errours and heresies is a signe and sure token to bewray the authors thereof and that the catholique faith or trueth is likewise to be knowen by the constant stability thereof he saieth that which we grant to be very true as willingly as he or any of his side Insomuch that coÌ„monly it is one of the principall reasons that we vse to proue their opinions that we striue against them for to be errours or heresies theÌ„selues for now holding them so obstinatly as they doe heretiques for that we are able to shew how by stealing and soft paces stily they began first to creepe in and so went on froÌ„ worse to worse vntill to vse his owne tearme they came ad prosuÌ„dum maloruÌ„ that is euen to the depth of all euill that they are now growen vnto therein Who so readeth my answere to Albines publishers preface and the 37. Chapter of my answere to Albine himselfe shall finde that in a good sort of their opinions I haue shewed this But to proue this that it is the property of heretiques to be fickle and mouing and so soone to perish passe away he alleadgeth S. Peter saying that lying masters doe bring vpoÌ„ theÌ„selues swift daÌ„nation their destruction sleepeth not which he spake of gods iudgements yâ— vndoubtedly should ouertake such meÌ„ not as he vnderstandeth him to shew that their opinions alwaies should soone passe away and vanish In the former sence it is alwaies fouÌ„d true that S. Peter writeth either here or els where or both but take it in the later sence then Peter shall often be found to haue prophecied of such vntruly For who knoweth not that the grosse errours of Turcism are of very long continuance that the errour of the Aethiopians for circumcision is far more ancients and that yet it continueth And must not of necessity the errours and heresies of Antichrist be of very long continuance seeing Paul as we haue heard confesseth that the mystery of that iniquity beganne to worken in his time aboue 1500. years ago and that it should not quite be abolished before Christs second comming who then should yet by the brightnesse of his comming abolish it 2. Thess 2 The trueth of whose prophecy in that place is the very true ground of the antiquity vniuersality and continuance of the popish and Antichristian Religion So that howsoeuer it hath fallen out in some heresies that they haue in Gods most wise prouidence euen quickely brought themselues to an ende by their ficklenes moouing yet it appeareth in that place the sinne of not beleeuing the trueth so notably taught and confirmed by Christ and his Apostles in the iust iudgement of God by Antichristianity is so seuerely to be punished that therewith euen from the Apostles daies to the ende of the worlde they that commit that sinne shall bee in danger to bee deluded and seduced most dangerously Which I say and sure I am I can proue it hath beene and yet is most notoriously verifyed by popery to the wonderfull hurt and destruction of soules Howbeit this man would faine apply this signe vnto vs for that amongst vs as it pleaseth him to write here in England for the loue we beare to the doctrine of the Zwinglians Oecolampadians and Caluinists the Lutherans haue takeÌ„ their iust ouerthrow and for that now here Precisians and Puritans as he saith through the affection of the common people and so winking at them by some magestrates haue brought the Zwinglians and Caluinists to be ready to yeeld vp the ghost and to tilt vp their heeles But these are but vaine words and proue not his purpose For all these howsoeuer in other matters of lesser moment they too much disagree yet as I haue saied before and as it is notoriously knowen for the principall articles of religion coÌ„cerning faith or maners they are in constant vnity holding the same all of them that they haue learned in these points out of the Canonical scriptures as the harmony of their confessions extant to the world in print make it euident As for the seuerall and priuate opinions of Luther and his too earnest followers which we now mislike we haue likewise alwaies misliked and therefore in that respect they haue no other ouerthrow amongst vs then they alwaies since we first heard of them haue had and howsoeuer in these points we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins iudgement then theirs yet certaine it is that we build not our faith of them nor of them or by them delight we to be called we protest and professe our selues
their doctrine was not new for whē they begā to preach vnto the gentils Idolaters i For the 9. they did not at the first preach Iesus Christ but they did seeke to blot out of the minds of the simple people the foolish opinion that they had in the multitude of Gods to teach them that there was but one God who had created the heauē earth who sendeth raine in time of neede all things els that are required for the sustenāce of mā k This he preacht but this was not al therefore he preaching somewhat that was new both to Iewe and Gentile namely that Iesus was the Christ therefore in that respect he his fellows had need to confirme their doctrine by signes and wonders This is the doctrin that S. Paul did preach as we read in the * Act. 14. Acts. This doctrine was not new amōg men although it were so that they were Painims l And therefore you bestow much needelesse cost to proue this point no new doctrine touching the vnity of the Godheade and the verity thereof for not onlie in Moses lawe nor in the law of Grace but euen by the lawe of Nature God hath beene knowen euen of those which were not of the familie of Abraham Isaac Iacob vnto whom the promise of the incarnation of Christ was made Of this doeth Abimilech the King of Gerar beare witnesse who did excuse himselfe before God for the wife of Abraham hee could neuer haue knowen how to talke thus with God if he had not knowen him * Gen. 20. Besides this he made Abraham to swear by the inuocatiō of the saied God that neither he nor his heires should suffer anie dammage by his posterity * Gen. 24. Bathuel did likewise know God whē he cōfessed that he was the authour of the mariage of his daughter with Abrahams son euen so Abimilech the king of the Palestines Phicol Ochosath saied vnto Isaac We heare that God is with thee therfore we are come to make alliance togither * m Judg. 2. Adonibezeth although he were a Gentile did not he confesse one God m Iudg. the first you would say when he saied that he had giuen him the selfesame punishment that he had giuen the .70 kings Iob al his frends although they were Gentiles haue auouched one God to be the Creatour of heauē earth euen aswell as the Israelites as it doeth appeare by the discourse of the said Iob. If we read the histories of the Paynims we shal finde that they beare witnes of one God among themselues Diogenes Laertius ◠the liues of the Philosophers doeth write that the Emperour Adrian did demaunde of a Philosopher celled Secundus what God was He answered God is an immortall spirit incomprehensible containing al the world a light and a soueraigne goodnes True it is that this Secundus was bolder to speake of God then another Philosopher called Simonides of whom Tullie doeth write in his first booke De naturâ deorum vnto whom when the tyrant Hiero did demaunde of him what God was that he had giuen him diuers daies of respuit to answer him at the last he saied that he did acknowledge in him an infinite of al things Cicero himselfe in the first question of his Tusculanes doeth gouerne giue the being to all things And in diuers places of that worke he doeth wel expresse that he knew wel that there was one God and that the Gods that the Gentiles did worship were but mortall men And in the saied booke he saieth that we know God by his works in the which hee doeth not much differ from Dauid saying * Psal 18. That the heauens declare the glory of God and the firmament doeth anounce his workes And in the 40. Chapter of Esay when God did talke with the Gentiles he did cal his works to beare witnes of his greatnes Lift vp your eies saieth he and beholde who hath made this And the * Sap. 13 Sage doeth say that men through their vanity haue not knowen God by his works And * Rom. 1. Saint Paul doeth absolutely condemne them saying that they can procure no excuse of ignorance for the inuisible things such as is the diuinitie of God maie be knowen by the visible thinges And therefore they are vnexcusable hauing hidden the trueth of God to vniustice for after that they haue knowen him they haue not giuen him that thankes and honour that they should haue done but they haue beene deceiued through their owne subtilitie making a profession of knowledge they haue beene founde foolish and ignoraunt S. Augustine 8. lib. de Ciu. dei cap. 24. doeth reckon Mercurius called Hermes Trimegistus among these forasmuch as he did continue in his owne errour although he knewe by that that one maie see in his owne writinges that his auncetours did err greatlie in the making and worshipping of so manie Gods The XVIII Chapter INdeede euen as you suppose in this case we further aunswere you as the Iewes were answered by Christ telling you that you are an adulterous and peruerse generation in thus demaunding signes to confirme a doctrine already of ancient time sufficiently confirmed But this answere you say cannot be iustly made to you because neither we are faithful messengers from God as Christ was nor you so hard harted as these Iewes were Trueth it is we dare not compare in faithfulnes with Christ for such comparison were odious but with S. Paul we protest that in seruing the God of our fathers according to that Religion which you count heresie beleeuing all that is writen in the law the Prophets we haue alwaies endeuoured to keepe a good conscience both before God and mā Act. 24. and as for you we see no cause to the contrary but that you may both for malice against the trueth and hard hartednes be compared with the Iewes For though we worke no miracles and they then had seene Christ to worke many yet our doctrine beeing the same that he taught and no other as we are alwaies ready and willing to proue it to be by the scriptures it hath beene confirmed not only by all the miracles that then Christ had wrought but also by all them that since were wrought by him or his Apostles to confirme the same and therefore you yet refusing to beleeue it shew as great hardnes of hart as they did rather more Indeed if we took vpon vs either any callings not warrāted by the Lord in his word or to preach any doctrine which we could not warrant by the canonicall scriptures you might with some reason call for some miracles of vs but seeing you cā proue neither of these against vs you may with more reason giue ouer this obiection then to pursue it any further Indeede we are not ashamed to confesse that these are two principall reasons which are here remēbred by you wherby we proue
hauing the grace that was inspired in him by the holie ghost at his baptisme so long he doeth not sinne vnto eternall death d Yea the Apostle to the great comfort of them that are once truely regenerat teacheth in these places that such by the power of that grace shall be so preserued that they shall neuer sin as the vnregeneraâ— do with their whole man vnto death for the generatioÌ„ of God that is to saie the grace receiued by this holy sacrament doeth so defend him that the Deuill cannot persecute him to death being not able to preuaile against him and as long as this good seede which is the word of God doeth dwell in him he cannot sinne and if he did sinne the seed would no loÌ„ger remain in him The holie ghost saith * Sap. 1. the wisemaÌ„ shall refuse the hypocrite and dissembler and shall depart from the vaine and crafty cogitations and therefore the grace of God and sinne can not dwell togither nor we ought not thinke S. Iohns wordes strange in that he saieth that he that is borne of God doeth not sinne for it is as much to say as that one can not serue two masters and that he that serueth God can not serue the Deuill For. S. Paul saieth * 1. Cor. 10. You cannot assist at the table of God and of the Deuill altogether for what communication is there betweene iustice and iniquity or betweene Iesus Christ and Belial And hee that doeth loue this world declareth himselfe an enemie vnto God And a little before he had saied he that doeth commit sinne is the sonne of the Deuill the which doeth not affirme that a sinner cannot be the sonne of God if he repent and doe penance but in the meane while a If this assertion be true â—â—en as often as the regenerate either actually sinneth or hath but a minde to sinne he is not the childe of God I would gladly know theÌ„ h w often the authour hath coÌ„tinued a moreâ—h the child of God togither or any man else he that is in actuall sinne or hath a minde to doe euill is as then not the sonne of God but the sonne of the Deuill The good tree doeth not beare ill fruite for although the fruit doe rot or perish vpon the tree that corruption doeth not proceede of the tree but of the wormes birdes or of some other kinde of vermine and therefore when they say that by the fruit we shall knowe the tree and by the workes the faith this ought to be vnderstood when the fruite doeth ripe in season and that it hath the naturall humour and property of the tree And in a man that he haue the influeÌ„ce of the true faith not otherwise for euen as the rotten fruit hanging vpon the tree doeth digresse nothing from the good stocke euen so the ill workes of vs that are Christians ought not to staine our holy and Catholique religion b Thus we also answere the obiection that you make against our religion froÌ„ the lewd liues that you see in some which seeme to be of our profession It is a good defence for you you thinke why should you not graunt â— then so to be to vs For the corruption of our ill fruites coÌ„meth of our selues and not of our religion the which doeth defende vs from doing that we doe I meane to sweare to blaspheme to commit adulterie to doe anie man wrong or to offend God anie waie He that doeth desire then by the fruit to know whither the tree of our Religion bee good hee ought not to bende his eies to looke vpon the rotten fruit as if that were sufficient to disproue the goodnesse of the tree but let him looke vpon the good fruites c You shall finde that you farre oueâ—shot your se fe in your reckoning when you compare indeed their religion exp essed in their writiâ—gs with yours such are all the Doctours aswell of the Greeke as Latin church so manie good Emperours and vertuous Kinges Princes Dukes and Earles which haue raigned in France Spaine Germany and England and ouer all the worlde and haue died in the faith leauing their workes to beare witnes of their good fruites d Many Kings Quâ—enes Nobles and others of our religion haue done these things also The which haue builded so manie faire hospitals to helpe releeue the poore so many goodly Colledges to entertaine fatherles children at their bookes so manie foundations and workes for the common wealth and that haue builded so manie sumptuous e The first pulling of them dowâ—e here in England came euen from your Cardinals and great bishops vnder the pretence therwith to found colledges and so hauing giuen the king an example wheâ— he was disposed to follow it they easily consented indeed the abhominaâ—ions therin committed was their ouerthrow Abbeies and houses of Religion the which you with your godlie zeale haue not onely robbed and spoiled but that that is more odious you haue pulled them cleane downe to deface the memorie of our ancesters to acquite all these which are notable monuments you brag of the good deedes that your good Christians doe which are much like vnto the gaines of those that vse to cog at dise for although they win much it is neuer seene or like the Iewes which to colour their horrible crueltie in putting our sauiour vniustly to death they weÌ„t bought with the monie that they gaue to Iudas a field to bury the dead k As deepe and grounded papists were lickorish of Abbey lands as any other and as greedily and securely they enioy them still amongst vs. Cardinall Woolsey and the Bishop of Rochester your great Martyr first began that course here And so you hauing robbed spoiled froÌ„ the religious houses and Abbeies more then you are able to restore you thinke to acquite it al with giuing a little to the poore No no these deuises are but vaine if by the fruit the tree be knowen as Christ saieth let them that haue anie iudgement looke vpon the fruit of our trees then iudge whither they be good or no. The XXXIIII Chapter PArtly in the former Chapter but more plainly in this you shew that you vnderstand by the trees that Christ spake of good Religion and bad But if you view the place you will at least I am sure you should rather thereby vnderstaÌ„d the persons of men effectually called as I haue saied or not called at all or at least yet vneffectually called that sound religion is one of the principall fruits that he meant should grow vpoÌ„ the former to discerne him from the later For his scope was not there to teach vs how to discerne religions but how to discerne the children of God from the children of sathan And thus it will proue that the sence of this prouerbe will not proue hard at all to vs to digest but to you who what shew soeuer you caÌ„ make with