minde but the law of sinne in his flesh which doctrine elsewhere he deliuereth in other termes distinguishing man into the inward and outward man and in another place into the old and new man Remig. The Pope his Cardinals Iesuits and Iesuited Popelings for the maitenance of their false and erronious doctrine of mans iustification do shamefully abuse and wrest the holy scriptute to a contrary sense and meaning fraudulently perswading their silly deuoted vassals that originall concupiscence remaineth onely in the body and not at all in the soule where as the truth is farre otherwise as holy wridtoth euidently coâ—uince Theoph. They contend and obstinately affirme that the inward man doth connotate the soule and the outward man the body and the termes of inward and outward seeme very agreeable to their application Remig. The spirit the law of the mind the inward and outward inall are all one with the holy Apostle and do signifie the whole man as he is regenerate and semblably the flesh the law of the members the outward and the old man are with the same Apostle all one and do signifie the whole man as he is corrupt by the fall of Adam Theoph. If it be possible for you â—oo demonstrate this doctrine out of holy writ you thereby giue the Pope a deadly wound and turne his religion vpside downe Remig. Marke well my discourse that ye may vnderstand the same Saint Iohn hath these expresse words which are borne hot of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God in which asseueration the holy Euangelist vnderstandeth by the word flesh the whole man as he is corrupt and vnregenerate Theoph. How can it be proued that Saint Iohn vnderstandeth the corrupt man by the word flesh Remig. These foure are distinguished in the Euangelist blood the will of the flesh the wil of the man and God by which distinction he giueth vs to vnderstand that the will of the flesh doth connotate the whole man corrupt I proue it because the Euangelist distinguisheth blood flesh and man one from another by a particular dissunctiue and God from them all by a particular aduersatiue Theoph. Your affirmance of the quadruple distinction is euident but how should flesh connotate the corrup man it doth not so well appeare Remig. I proue it two waies First if the word flesh should signifie the body or fleshly parts of man the Euangelist should thereby consound himselfe and frâ—strate his distiction the reason is euident because in the first word blood he did formerly infâ—â—nate so much vnto his reader Secondly because the Euangelist addeth an adiunct to the word flesh which can no way agrée to the body Theoph. What is that adiunct I pray you Remig. The will of the flesh for will is added vnto flesh not vnto blood and it is a proper faculty of the soule but not of the body for the flesh or body hath no will at all which for all that the Euangelist attributeth to the flesh and consequently he meaneth and speaketh of that flesh which hath a will and so of the corrupt man fitly compared to flesh as who before his regeneration sauoreth onely the things of the flesh which sense the Apostle plainly vnâ—oldeth when he affirmeth the animall sensuall and naturall man not to perceiue the things of thy spirit of God This reason or explication is confirmed by an other testimony of the same Apostle where he auoucheth the flesh to lust against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh so that the children of God cannot performe the things they will and earnestly desire for this conflict betwéene the flesh and the spirit must néeds be vnderstoode of the regenerate and vnregenerate parts of man for the flesh lusteth not without the soule as both Saint Austen and reason teaceth vs. Theoph. The Papists expound the words of the Apostle otherwise affirming the cumbat to be betweene the body signified by the flesh and the soule signified by the spirit Remig. The Papists say much but proue little they striue for life to obscure the Apostles true sense and meaning as which turneth their faith religion vpâ—idedoune but I God willing will proue what I say by the expresse words of holy writ and by euident reason First therefore many texts of holy scripture doe conuince the Papists oâ— grosse errour while they peruerâ—ly and mordicus auerre that the soule of the regenerate is frée from all mortall sin and that originall sinne remaineth onely in the body materially the first text is comprised in these words create in me a cleane heart O God and renew a right spirit within me cast me not away from thy presence and take not thine holy spirit from me In these words the holy Prophet sheweth plainely that he was regenerate and yet not frée from sinne for in that he desireth his heart to be purified and his spirit to be renued he giueth vs to vnderstand that his soule is not frée from sinne nor himselfe perfectly regenerate On the other side in that he prayeth God not to take away his holy spirit from him nor to cast him away from his presence he sheweth euidently to the indifferent reader that he is regenerate though not wholly yet in part The second text confirmeth the same in these words though our outward man perish yet the inward man is renewed daily The third text is yet plainer in these words be renewed in the spirit of your minde and put on the new man which after God is created in righteousnesse and true holines The fourth text is as plaine in these words séeing yée haue put off the old man with his works and haue put on the new which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him The fifth text doth further confirme the same in these words night and day praying excéedingly that we might sée your face and might accomplish that which is lacking in your faith By al which texts it is very cléere and euident that the regenerate man is not wholly renewed in his souls for which respect Saint Iohn exhoedeth him that is iustified to be iustified more Qui iustus est iustificetur adhuc Yea S. Paul throughout a whole chapter doth in effect intend no other thing but onely to demonstrate by many arguments that mans regeneration is vnperfect aswell in the soule as in the body two verses onely will suffice for the cléering of our question The former verse is conteined in those words for we know that the law is spirituall but I am carnall fold vnder sinne The latter verse in these words for I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing for to will is present with me but I find no meanes to performe that which is good Out of which verses I obserue these memorable doctrines First that by the word flesh must néedes be vnderstoode the whole man as
Rome that he could no erre in his iudiciall and definitiue resolutions neither euer was the Bishop of that Sea acknowledged for the sole and onely iudge in controuersies of religion this is to be so one onely testimony of S. Cyprian will or at least may suffice for S. Cyprian a very auncient father a great learned Bishop and amost blessed martyr although he highly reuerenced the Church of Rome for respects now related and consequently the Bishops thereof yet was he so farre from acknowledging the falssy now vsurped prerogatiue of the Bishop of Rome that his faith could not faile that he flatly reiected his opinion contemned his definitiue sentence and decided his iudiciall decrées calling him blind buzzard and arrogaÌ„t Prelat The like I might alledge cut of many famous papists Adrianus Panormit nus Alphonâ—us Gersonus Ockamus and others but this â—onuâ—ceth that neither S. Austin nor any auncieÌ„t father in their time nor the Bishop of Rome did obiect against S. Cyprian that the said Bishop could not erre Theoph. This is a wonderment to me that our Popes Monkes and Iesuites haue beene so licentious and wicked liuers but seeing so many famous Popish writers and the late secular Romish Priests haue in printed bookes published to the whole world testified so much of and against them it maketh me to stagger and to doubt of the Romith religion although informer times I haue high reuerenced the same for if the Bishop of Rome had beene priuiledged not to erre not onely the Bishop of Rome but the holy fathers also of that age would haue obiected the same against S. Cyprian vndoubtedly it cannot be denied Remig. You neither are nor euer were a more earnest zealous papist then my selfe haue béene but I heartily thanke God for it I now behold as clearely as the noone day the absurdities and abhominations of late vpstart popery the case is so cleare as euery child of God may with all facility perceiue the same Theoph. Why doe you call it late vpstart popery it hath continued from S. Peter and euery Pope is his successor Remig. This is one mighty point which hath not onely seduced and be witched you but both many others and myne owne selfe aswell as you I truely cald it late vpstart popery because of ten parts it scarscely retaineth two parts of the old Roman religion which S. Peter and S Paul by their preaching deliuered to the Church of Rome yea since the Iesuites began which was about the yeare 1537. popish religion is ten times more absurd then it was afore Theoph. The Catholikes hold constantly that the true faith and religion which S. Peter and S. Paul preached at Rome hath euer continued at Rome vntill this present day and that no other Church in the Christian world is able to shew a perpetuall and vninterrupted succession of their Bishops and priests saue onely the Church of Rome Remig. This is my answere First that the word Catholike is an holy and auncient name giuen in the beginning to all Christians and faithfull people in the world and therefore is it this day highly reuerenced and continually rehearsed in the publicke prayers of our English Church but there be two sortes of Catholikes the one deformed the other reformed which reformed Catholikes are all the true members of our English Church and all such as consesse and embrace the same faith and doctrine with them Secondly that the faith and doctrine which S. Peter and S. Paul preached to the old Romans remaineth at Rome indéede but how no otherwise doubtlesse then an old beggars cloake remaineth still to the beggar though it haue an hundred clouts of diuerse colours added and fastened one to another Thirdly that our English Church is able to shew a better and sounder perpetuall and vninterrupted succession of her Bishops and Priests then the late vpstact Church of Rome Theoph. What are you English-men Catholikes you are say we at Rome flat heretikes and apostataes as whom many late Popes of Rome haue accursed to the deepe pit of hell Remig. You know there is a sort of Fryers at Rome commonly called the Franciscans which sect was hatched and borne in the yéere 1206. who haue by little and little swarued from their first institution and become so licentious and dissolute that another sect of Fryers commonly called Capuchéenes which thing you béeing a Citizen of Rome knowe aswell as my selfe haue accused them to haue depraued and fowly peruerted the rules of their auncient order sect and profession in so much as they cannot this day with safe consciences embrace the same and therefore haue they reformed their said sect and doe terme themselues the reformed true Franciscans indéede this if it be duely considered is doubtlesse this day our case in our Church of noble England as also of many other reformed Churches within the Christian world for as the Capuchéenes hold fast kéepe still and constantly defend all the auncient rules of the old and true Franciscans and duely reiect and abandon that which by little little crept into their sect supertition abuses neglect of discipline and dissolute life euen so is it this day in our Church of England she holdeth fast kéepeth still and most constantly deserdâ—th all and euery rite of the old Roman religion highly reuerencing the same as Catholike and Apostolike doctrine Shee onely reiecteth and abandoneth heresies errors superstitions and intollerable abuses by little and little brought into the Church the enemy the dinel hauing sowen tares while the carelesse pastors were a sléepe For neither did most noble Quéene Elizabeth in her time neither doth our most pious religious Soueraigne King IAMES who most happily raigneth ouer vs set vp or bringe into the Church any new religion but he as Quéene Elizabeth before onely reformeth purgeth the Church after the holy examples of King Dauid King Salomon King Iosaphat King Ezechias King Iosias and other godly and zealous Kings in their daies and carefully reduceth it to the primitiue order and to the purity of the old Roman religion This to be so none can in conscience deny that will with a single eye this day behold thegodly setled Canons of this Church of England Theoph. If you were able to proue vnto me that the Church of Rome did any time swarne or reuolt from the old Roman religion I would doubtlesse forsake the late romish doctrine as you terme it and ioyfully yeelde vnto the truth Remig. I shall proue it by the power of God and assistance of his holy spirit before the end of this our conference if you like to stay to the end thereof and be not wearied with my discourse Theoph. God reward you for your Christian kindnesse and this paineful trauaile for my sake your talke is so comfortable to myne heart that I shall not be weary thereof though I should stay an whole yeare in your company but I feare me I shall
A CHRISTIAN DIALOGVE BETWEENE THEOPHILVS A DEFORMED CATHOLIKE IN ROME AND Remigius a reformed Catholike in the Church of England Conteining A plaine and succinct resolution of sundry very intricate and important points of religion which doe mightily assaile the weake consciences of the vulgar sort of people penned for the solace of all true hearted English subiects and for the vtter confusion of all seditious Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings in England or else where so long as they shall persist inordinately in their nouelties heresies errours and most grosse and palpable superstions Ecclesiast Cap. 4. Ver. 28. Striue for the truth vnto death and defend Iustice for thy life and the Lord shall fight for thee against thine enemie Prou. Cap. 12. Ver. 1. He that loueth instruction loueth knowledge but he that hateth correction is a foole LONDON Printed by Nicholas Okes for VVilliam VVelby and are to be sold at his Shop in Paules Church-yard at the signe of the Gray-hound 1609. TO THE RIHGT VVORSHIPFVLL MY APPROVED GOOD FRIENDS SIR STEuen Procter Sir Timothie Whittingham Sir Vincent Skinner and Sir Timothie Hutton Knights and his Maiesties most zealous vpâ—ight painfull Iustices of the Peace HAuing published many bookes in defence of the truth against the aduersaries of the truth the Pope his Cardinals Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings I meane and perceiuing by many arguments that sundry of my deare Country men are not yet fully resolued in certain maine points of religion vpon which all the rest in some sort do depend I haue deemed it a labour very necessary for the common good to dispute those most intricate points pro contra Dialogue-wise that so all difficulties therein may bee cleered all obscurity taken away and the truth plainly laid open before the eyes of euery indifferent reader The Papists most impudently bragge and boast that they maintaine keepe and defend that faith and doctrine which S. Peter and S. Paul deliuered to the Romans that neither their Pope nor their Church can erre that their Church and none but their Church is able to shew and truly to proue a perpetuall vninterrupted succession of their Bishops and Priests that the written word of God containeth not all things necessary to be beleeued vnto saluation for that it sheweth not the holy Bible to be canonical and that originall sinne remaineth only materially in the bodies of the regenerate and not formally in their mindes wils and hearts All these points and euery of them though most difficult and intricate I haue taken in hand to confute relying vpon Gods holy assistance who neuer forsaketh the truth What I haue performed let your wisedomes and others iudge The work such as it is I dedicate to your worships not only to giue as a signe of a gratefull minde for your kinde fauours to me-ward but much more to intimate to the world that inward ioy of mine heart which issueth out of your rare zeale to Gods eternall truth constant loyalty to your most gracious Soueraigne and painefull labours for the good of our Church and Common-weale The almighty giue you many happy yeares vpon earth and vouchsafe to increase his manifold graces in you that you may dayly more and more and others by your Christian example imploy your painefull labours for the aduancement of his glorious Gospell the cutting downe of sinne the extirpation of late start-vp Popery and the rooting out of all traiterous Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings which haue beene and still are too much fauoured and winked at by sundry in authority especially in these North-parts of noble England Dixi. March 21. 1609. Your worships to be commanded THOMAS BELL. A Table of the Chapters contained in this Booke CHAP. 1. Of the old Roman and ancient Church of Rome Pag. 1. CHAP. 2. Of the false and erroneous faith of the late Bishops of Rome Pag. 11. CHAP. 3. Of sundry important obiections which seeme to proue the Popes prerogatiue of faith Pag. 26. CHAP. 4. Of the Succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome Pag. 66. CHAP. 5. Of Popish vnwritten Traditions Pag. 102. CHAP. 6. Of the state of the regenerate with the particular adiuncts of the same Pag. 121. CHAP. 1. Of the old Roman and auncient Church of Rome Theophilus GOD blesse you Father Remigius I hope you will this day yeeld great comfort to my distressed heart for I haue often heard that you are both proâ—undly learned and charitably affected to all your Christian neighbours so as for your great learning you are very able and for your rare charitie euer ready to giue good counsell to such as stand in neede of you I therefore for Christs sake beseech you to shew me the ready way to heauen Remig. To beleeue rightly and liue christianly is your very path-way to Heauen but it is a straight and narrow gate and few do finde the same Theoph. Alas my good father then shall more be damned then saued God forbid it should be so Remig. That which God hath decreed man cannot withstand Many saith Christ are called but few are chosen Striue to enter in at the straight gate for many will séeke to enter in and shall not be able Yet our most mercifull and iust God will condemne none to eternall death but for their notorious sinnes and iust deserts Theoph. We may exclaime with holy Polycarâ—e ô God to what a world hast thou reserued vs c. Now euery one can giue good words both in the Pulpit and else where but badder life and wickeder dealing was neuer more frequent in any towne or City The Catholiques for good life and meritorious actes are the mirror of the Christian world Remig. Whom doe you call Catholikes I am a Catholique my selfe Theoph. The Pope his Cardinals his Monkes his Fryers his holy Nunnes and all such as agree in faith and doctrine with the Church of Rome Remig. If you speake of Pope Formosus Pope Iohn degraded him and brought him to laicall state againe after he had béene the Bishop of Portua Hée further tooke him sworne that hée neither should be Bishop again not euer returne to the Citie of Rome Howbeit Pope Martin absolued him from his oath and after a few yéeres he did notonely come to Rome but there was made the Pope If you speake of Pope Stephanus yâ— sixt he persecuted Pope Formosus euen after his death He called a Councell and disanulled all the decrées of Pope Formosus his predecessour He caused his body to be brought into his CoÌ„sistory the papall induments to be taken away a laicall habite to be put on she dead corps two fingers of his right hand to be cut off and that done forsooth his body to be put againe into the graue Meane you Pope Sergius the third he caused Pope Formosus who now had béen dead almost ten whole yéeres to be taken out of his tombe and to be set in a chaire with pontificall attire vpon his backe that done he commanded his head to be
that hold preach or defend the contrary this excommunication Pope Sixtus the fourth thundred out in his Extrauagant in the yéere 1474. by which practicall procéedings and doctrine we may easily espie the vncertainety of the Popes faith and religion as also his ignorance in the high mysteries of popish doctrine for though he cannot erre iudicially in matters of doctrine as the papists must beléeue yet can he not decide this easie question whether the Virgin Mary was conceiued in originall sinne or not but Aquinas the Popes angelicall doctor and canonized Saint whose doctrine two Popes Vrbanus the fourth and Innocentius the fifth haue confirmeth to be sound and true affirmeth resolutely that she was conceiued in originall sinne tell me now what ye thinke of the Popes succession at Rome Theoph. I see flatly and euidently that by popish doctrine faith and religion we cannot this day tell who are true Bishops of Rome indeed and consequently that the succession deriued from them is of no credit or force at all but yet by your fauour I desire your further resolution to such shewes and colours of succession as they pretend for the Church of Rome Saint Austen saith say they that the succession of Priests euen from Saint Peter to these daies kept him in the bosome of the Church so Optatus Tertullianus others do often alledge stand vpon the succession of Bishops as an argument of the truth Remig. It is true that Saint Austen made a great account of the succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome and my selfe also all learned men I thinke doe iumpe with Saint Austen in that his opinion for the resolution of which obiection sundry obseruations already Proued are to be well remembred First that the Bishops of Rome were in the beginning many of them holy Martyre who gaue their liues for the testimony of our Lord Iesus Secondly that they ioyned formall succession with materiall vntill Saint Austens dayes and long after Thirdly that the Church of Rome by little and little swarued from the truth and declined in many points of doctrine from the auncient receiued faith Fourthly that the latter Bishops of Rome haue decreed publickely against the knowen faith in so much as some of them haue béene condemned with the sound of the Trumpets other some haue béene conuicted of Arrianisme others of Nestorianisme others of flat Atheisme others to haue crept into Peters chaire as they terme it by flat Simony others haue occupied the place by violent intrusion others by homage done to the diuel of hell Fifthly that faith and honest dealing was now decaied in the Church of Rome and long before the daies of Carranza and Platina brought to that miserable estate that euery ambitious fellow might inuade Peters seate Sixthly that by popish doctrine and vniforme assertions of best approued popish writers succession in the Church of Rome is so doubtfull that they cannot proue themselues this day to be true Bishops indeed I say by popish doctrine because my selfe doe hold them true Bishops though very wicked and vngodly men of which point I shall haue occasion to speake of more at large by and by my answere therefore in briefe is this viz that the Bishops of Rome in Saint Austens time ioyned formall succession with materiall which if the Bishops of Rome would this day performe all godly Christians would now ioyne with them as Saint Austen did in his time for as Saint frene say we ought to obey those Priests that with the succession kéepe the word of truth Theoph. Saint Paul saith plainely that there must bee Bishops and Pastors in the church vntill the worlds end whereupon it followeth say the Papists whom now I haue vpon good grounds renounced that you Protestants haue no Church at all for before Luther departed from them all Bishops and Priests for many yeares together embraced their Romish religion This obiection say our Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings doth so gall the Protestants as they cannot tell in the world what answere to frame thereunto Remig. I answere first that we are the true reformed Catholikes as is already proued Secondly that Pastors Doctors as S. Paul saith haue euer béene in the Church are at this present and shall be to the worlds end Thirdly that albeit the visible Church cannot want materiall succession the continuance whereof Christ hath promised yet cannot that succession without formall yéeld any sound argument of true faith and religion For which respect the famous Papist Nicholaus de Lyra after he hath told vs that many Popes haue swarued from the faith and become flat Apostataes concludeth in these expresse words propter quod Ecclesia consistit in illis personis in quibus est notitia vera et confessio fidei veritatis By reason whereof the Church consisteth in those persons in whom there is true knowledge and confession of the faith and verity Thus writeth this learned popish Fryer telling vs resolutely y◠though there must be euermore a visible Church with visible Pastors Doctors in it yet those visible Pastors Doctors both may swarue haue de facto swarued from the true faith religion and that therefore the Church indeed consisteth of the predestinate and elect children of God whose faith shall neuer faile this poynt you haue heard so pithely approued as is able to satisfie euery in different reader Theoph. The Iesuites say that howsoeuer you wrangle about your formal succession yet it is cleere that you haue no material succession at all vnlesse you tearme it material succession when meere Lay-men occupy the roomes of lawful Bishops for none may take vpon them or intrude thēselues into the holy ministery but such as are lawfully called thereunto as Aaron was yet all the world can tell you that all your Ministers Bishops Priests and Deacons in the time of King Edward and Queene Elizabeth and now of King IAMES haue no other orders consecration at all but such as they receiued of our Romish Bishops indeede Remig. Our succession is both materiall and formall Christian and Apostolicall as which is consonant to the holy Scriptures and to the vsuall practise of the primitiue Church For first our Bishops can proue their Doctrine by the scriptures and by the testimonies of best approued popish writers as we haue séene already Secondly our Bishops haue mission and imposition of hands according to the practise Apostolical and of all approued antiquity Thirdly our Bishops are made in such forme and order as they haue euer béene accustomed a few popish superstious and beggerly ceremonies omitted which by little little had of late yeares crept into the Church that is to say by frée election of the Chapiter by consecration of the Arch-bishop and other his associates and by the admission of the Prince Theoph. Saint Epiphanius inueigheth bitterly against one Zachaeus who being but a Lay-man as your Puritaines be presumed impudently to
handle the holy Mysteries S. Hierome in like manner saith of Hilarius the heretike that he could neither baptize nor administer the Eucharist because he was but a Deacon wheÌ„ he went out of the church and what are you but Deacons nay what are you but meere Lay-men for you are neither consecrated after the old manner nor confirmed by the Pope as the Iesuits beare the world in hand Remig. I answere first that if méere Lay-men should presume in our Churches either to preach teach or handle the holy mysteries they could not escape condigâ—e punishment according to their demerites Secondly that the want of your greasing and other beggeâ—ly Ceremonies wherewith the primitiue Church was neuer acquainted as holy writ teacheth vs cannot make the consecration of our Bishops vnlawfull Thirdly yâ— our Bishops are consecrated confirmed according to the ancient manner of the primitiue Church for three things onely are necessary all which God be thanked for it are this day practised in our Church of England to wit election of the whole Congregation confirmation of the Prince and consecration with godly praiers and imposition of hands Of the last of these thrée that is of the imposition of hands with praier mention is made to Timothie and else where For the confirmatioÌ„ of the Prince and not of the Pope which is the second point this is enough for the tryall viz. that these thrée Popes Pelagius the second Seâ—erinus and Benedictus the second and all other Bishops of Rome till the sayd Benedict inclusiuè were euer elected and confirmed by the Emperours commandement which verity is freely confessed in expresse termes by foure famous Popish writers who therefore are and ought to be of more credit and force against the Papists then any other authors whatsoeuer The names of the popish Doctors are these Baptista Platina Bartholomaeus Carranxa Anastatius Bibliothecarius and Onuphrius Panuinius Piatina hath these words Niâ— enim tum in eligendo Pontifice actuÌ„ erat nisi eius electionem Imperator approbasset for at that time which was about the yeere of our Lord God â—â—0 nothing was done effectually concerning the election of the Bishop of Rome vnlesse the Emperour had confirmed the same Touching the creation of Seuerinus for the other testimony was of Pelagius the same Platina writeth in this manner Vana enim tunc habebatur Cleri ac populi electio nisi Imperatores aut eorum Exarchi confirmassent For the election of the Clergie and the people was of no force at all in those dayes vnlesse the Emperours or their Lieutenants had confirmed the same this was done about the yéere 637. Concerning the creation or making of Benedict Platina hath these words ad hunc Constantius Imperator sanctionem misit vt deinceps quem Clerus populus Exercitusque Romanus in Pontificem delegislet eundem statim verum Christi Vicarium esse omnes crederent nulla aut Constantinopolitani Principis aut Italiae Exarchi expectat authoritate vt antea fieri coÌ„sueuerat id enim ratum erat in creando Pontifice quod Princeps confirmaslet vel qui eius vices in Italia gerebat The Emperour Constantine sent a decrée to this Pope that whomsoeuer the Clergy people and Romaine Souldiers should henceforth choose for their Bishop all people should by and by beléeue him to be the Uâ—car of Christ scilicet if they would This was done in anno 68â— Bartholomaeus Carranza a famous Dominican Frier hath the very same assertion ad verbum Anastasius and Onuphrius haue these expresse words Pontifices qui deinde fuerant creati conâ—ecrati sunt sine Constantinopolitani Imperatoris iussione The Popes or Bishops of Rome that liued afterward were made and consecrated without the Emperour of Constantinople his coÌ„maund as if they had said in the old time and auncient Church no Bishop of Rome could haue bin admitted at any time vnles he had brought letters patents froÌ„ the Emperour though now yâ— practise be farre otherwise Now M. Theophilus tell me what you gather out of this discourse Theoph. Out of this doctrine of this famous papists I gather to the confusion of the late Bishops of Rome their Iesuits and all Iesuited papists these three euidents golden and most necessary corollaries First that the vulgar and common sort of people are grosly deceiued when they terme popery the old religion and repute them for the auncient Catholikes for we are indeede the true and auncient Catholikes I put my selfe in the number because God now hath made me a true reformed Catholike and the papists are become flat heretiques in many points of the true faith though not apostataes from the whole For this Benedict the second could not be made Bishop of Rome 684. yeeres after Christs sacred aduent without the Emperours letters Patents so then the Emperours had the soueraignty ouer the Bishops of Rome for the space almost of seuen hundren yeeres after Christ so long the Popes acknowledged the Emperours for their soueraigne Lords as without whose letters Patents they could haue no iurisdiction in the Church I adde as consectary hereunto that as in ciuill causes many are debarred from their lawfull inheritance through the violent dealing of mighty men euen so we the true reformed Catholikes haue beene many yeeres excluded from the free vse of our owne Church and Sacraments by the force violence and tyrannie of the blood-thirsty Romish Bishops and partly by remissenes of sundry Emperours who vpon a blind zeale not grounded vpon Gods word yeelded vp their soueraigne rights vnto them and as temporal men are in time restored to their auncient right by zealous and godly Magistrates euen so were we and are we God make vs thankefull for it by the goodnesse of God and most Christian Princes King Henry the eight King Edward the sixt Queene Elizabeth and King IAMES our most gratious soueraigne now happily regnant ouer vs restored to the old Christian Catholike and Apostolike religion and with all Christian freedome placed again in our owne Churches the spirituall birth-right of our selues and our ancestors Secondly thath our Bishops in England are made and consecrated according to the auncient Christian Catholike Apostolike and old Roman maner that is to say by the letters Patents of the Prince Thirdly that the Emperours of Constantinople for the space of 200. yeares and odde after the dissolution of the Empire in the west had still the soueraignty ouer the Bishop of Rome for the west Empire was dissolued in Anno 471 and Benedict the second obteined of the Emperour Constantine in Anno 684 that the Bishops of Rome might from thenceforth be chosen confirmed and enioy their iurisdiction without the commandement and letters Patents of the Emperour Remig. You haue marked well the discourse and for all that haue not obserued one point of great consequence Theophilus What is that I beseech you heartily Remig. The late Popes or Bishops of Rome tel
to God I could soundly answere this reason Remig. Listen well to my discourse and you shall God willing be able to confute it with all facility this is the answere First that our nation first receiued the faith iâ— the time of Vespasian Emperour of Rome about 70â— yeeres after Christs sacred Incarnation by the preaching of Christs holy Apostle Symon Zelotes Secondly that if it be true which Freculphus writeth the Brutans had receiued the faith of Christ about the yéere 6â— by the preaching of those twelue which Philip the Apostle sent into this land whereof Ioseph of Aramathâ—a was the chiefe Thirdly that about the yéere 1â—9 Elutherius then Bishop of Rome at the request of King Lucius the sonne of Coâ—lis sent Faganus and Deruuianus into Britaine to baptise the said King and his people and to instruct them in the faith of Christ. Fourthly that séeing the Brutanes had béene subiects and tributaries to the Romans aboue 600. yéeres it is no rare thing that Gregory the chiefe Bishop of the Romans should send preachers into England with the good liking of Ethelbert then King of Kent for it is euery Christians duty to doe what in him lieth in such a case Fifthly that the name Pope is a Gréeke word which signifieth father and in the auncient Church was common to other Bishops with the Bishops of Rome which you may finde proued at large in a little booke intituled the triall of the new religion Sixthly that in the time of this Gregory and long after the faith and doctrine of the Church of Rome was in good case though in some part steined with some corruptions neither is it blame worthy either in Bishop Gregory that sent it or in King Ethelbert that receiued it that our nation had then the Church seruice in the Latin tongue for as the prouerbe saith necessity hath no law besides that the Roman language was then in the Latin tongue and so to them their vulgar tongue and they altogether ignorant of the language of our nation for of old time as Nicholaus Lyranus that learned popish Frier telleth vs euery Church had diuine seruice in her mother and vulgar tongue of which subiect I haue written at large in the suruey of popery and no maruell if our Church receiuing the Church seruice in the Latin tongue though vpon necessity for that the Romans were ignorant of the Saxons language did a long time reteine the same for though it were a fault comparatiuely a small one would to God our Church had neuer béene steined with greater corruptions one thousand yéere are fully expired since Gregory was the Bishop of Rome since which time most intollerable abuses superstitions errors and flat heresies haue crept into the Church of Rome which is all that our Church hath abolished still constantly reteining as pure and inuiolable the old Roman faith and religion Theoph. You told me that the visible Church both may erre and de facto hath erred and the same as you haue soundly proued by the testimonies of best approued popish writers may fitly and truly be verified in many late Bishops of Rome but how any Church can be inuisible which is the Church say you that cannot erre I doe not yet vnderstand I pray you take some paine for my better instruction in that behalfe Remig. True it is that euery particular Chuch is visible in it selfe for all men women and children euery one in his corporall consistence are visible as experience teacheth vs and for all that this is a true and most constant position that that Church which cannot erre inuisible for the true aâ—d exact knowledge whereof you must distinguish in man two things his externall corporeity or corporall consistence and his internall election in Christ Iesus Man considered the former way is visible indéed euery child can discypher the case but the latter way he is inuisible and knowne onely vnto God or to those to whom he reuealeth it Theoph. I seeme now to haue a glimmering of the question though no perfect insight into the same I pray you vnfold the case distinctly and declare it by some familiar examples if it may be Remig. At such time as the Prophet Elias made his complaint in Santaria that he onely was left alone an Oracle from heauen answered him in this maner I haue reserued to my selfe seuen thousand men which haue not bowed the knée to Baal By which diuine Oracle it is euident yâ— seuen thousand persons were inuisible to Elias and all the same visible in themselues at one and yâ— same time Do yée now vnderstand the case Theoph. I seeme to conceiue it by vertue of your former distinction They were visible as men but inuisible as the children of God for that Elias knew not their faith and election in Iesus Christ. Remig. You conceiue it aright Iudas Iscariot as he was a man was visible both to the rest of the Apostles and to others who for all that as he was a traytor was visible to God alone for which cause the Apostles were astonished when they heard that one of them should betray Christ their Lord and Maister The Apostle confirmeth the same when he saith the foundation of God remaineth sure and hath this seale the Lord knoweth who are his the faith and conscience of the elect to God-ward is vnknowne to men and so to them they are inuisible though visible in their owne persons Theoph. I must needes yeeld to this as to a manifest truth but are not all members of the which Church beleeue in Christ and hold the catholike faith as we do Remig. All that professe externally the Catholike faith are members of the visible Church and must be reputed for such so long as they are not cut off from the Church by the iust censure of excommunication But Gods elect onely are the true Church that is to say that mysticall body whereof Christ Iesus is the mysticall head Gods elect onely are that Church to which Christ promised his inuisible presence to the worlds end Gods elect only are that Church which is the pillar of truth and cannot erre But the reprobates neither are nor can bee that mysticall body whereof Christ is the head for our Lord Iesus is so farre from being their head that he hateth all those that worke wickednesse and wil put them from him with a sharp ve vobis at the generall doome Gods elect onely are the bride betrothed to our Lord Iesus the Bride-grome betwéene whom there is such an inseparable vnion as no power create vpon earth or in heauen is able to dissolue the same Theoph. God reward you for your great paines which you haue taken herein for his names sake and my good you haue so resolued me in these most intricate difficulties of christian religion that I stand at vtter defiance with the late start-vp Romish faith and doctrine highly reuerencing the old Roman
man can truly and dutifully serue two masters as a seruant ought to doe for it is not the part of a seruant to hate his master to withstand his commaundes and euery houre to fight with him as the regenerate children of God do continually with sin yea the Apostle confirmeth the same sense when he plainely confesseth of himselfe that he did not that good which he would but that euill which he would not and thereupon concludeth that he himselfe did it not but the sinne that dwelled in him for albeit sinne against his will remained still in him and had daily conflicts and continuall cumbats with him yet had he the victory and vpper hand ouer sinne in that he stood constantly at defiance with it and would neuer yéelde consent vnto it Thirdly that one may serue two contrary maisters secundum quid though not simpliciter in part but not simply wholly or totally and this sense doth the holy Apostle affoord vs while he confesseth resolutely that he himselfe serued the law of God in his mind but in his flesh the law of sinne for by reason of the reliques of the flesh and grace of the spirit he was deuided in himselfe Theoph. This seemeth to smell of Popery for they teach that the regenerate sinne onely in the body materially and not at all in the soule Remig. I haue proued formerly if you wel remember yâ— the Apostle vnderstandeth by yâ— word flesh whatsoeuer is in man not yet renued by yâ— holy Ghost to wit not only the sensitiue appetite but euen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will â—â—â—â—nerate For as the same Apostle â—aiâ—h else where 〈◊〉 They that are in the flesh cannot please God which is all one as if he had said they that haue not the spirit of regeneration which abolisheth sin in them though not all at once but by degrées cannot possibly please God neither can yâ— Popish sense by any meanes be true séeing by it none liuing no Pope no Cardinall no Iesuite can possibly please God The reason is euident because none can liue on earth but which haue their soules in their bodyes This sense the Apostle doth plainly deliuer in these words immediatly following now ye are not in the flesh but in the spirit because the spirit of God dwelleth in you but if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is not his here it is cléere that the word flesh doth connotate whatsoeuer is in man vnregenerate but not the body which the soule informeth This sense is more plainely confirmed in another place where it is written for we know that the law is spirituall but I am carnall sould vnder sinne where we sée euidently that the Apostle by flesh meaneth neither the body onely nor the soule onely but both body and soule so farre forth as they are vngenerate for the word carnall doth not barely connotate any one part either of body or of soule but the whole person of man not yet purified with the grace of regeneration The words are very emphaticall for I am carnall S. Paul speaketh of himselfe being the regenerate child of God and for all that fréely acknowledgeth himselfe to be carnall and sold vnder sinne Which acknowledgement he maketh in respect of his vnperfect renouation as well of soule as of body giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that the best 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are sanctified but in part not wholly and perfectly For doubtlesse if the sanctification of Gods Children were perfect in this life S. Paules should haue found no defect but he that is iustified and sanctified must continually endeuour to bee more and more iust and holy Which precept is giuen in vaine if sanctification in this life be perfect Theoph. I see it most euidently that S. Paul and the rest of the Apostles were not sanctified wholly but onely in part and that therefore they both sinned and did good workes at once albeit they sinned onely while they did their good workes but neuer in doing the same Gods holy name be blessed for that insight into the Catholike truth which in great mercy he hath by this conference bestowed on me And I most humbly thanke you Father Râ—â—igiâ—â— for your most Christian paines on my behalfe faithfully promising to rest yours during life in what I possibly may or can as one that oweth euer himselfe vnto you Laus Deo vni trino FINIS Maâ— v 14â— Luc 13. v. 24. Mat. 20. â— 17. Luc. 〈◊〉 v. 24. Pope Stephanus a cruell Tyâ—â—nt Pope Iohn a notorious who â— munger Pope Bonifacea Church robâ—â— Pope Benâ—â— an extortioneâ— Pope Iohn with child Pope Boniface entred as a Fox liâ—ed as a Wolfe and died as a Dogge Pope â—yluâ—ster promised â—omagâ— to the Deuil Robert parsons an holy Fryer If thâ—â— shalt read â—hiâ— Anatomy thou canst not but abhoâ—â—e â—aâ—e â—pâ—â—aâ—â— Popery Aug. Epist. 119. Aâ—â—st contra Epist â—â—â—dam S. Ausâ—â—â— respected â—uccession wâ—â—ch was â—oyâ—â—â— with holy â—â—fâ— and pure â—octâ—iâ—â— the euill life of Ministeâ—s doth much hurt to the truth Rom. 2 v. 14. Act. 27 v. 10 11 〈◊〉 Hebr. 31. v. 7. Note that the Bishop of Rome did neuer aledge for himselfe that he could not erre because hee knâ—we no such prerogatiue in very deede Cypâ—â— Epist ad Pompeum The Iesuites are a now young â—ecte of Fiyers The papists are the deâ—â—med Catholique we the reformed Rom 1. v. 8 The sect of Franciscans Theophilus a Citisen of Rome Let this be well remembred our Church reuerenceth antiquity onely reiecteth nouelties The late romish â—aith is the new religion Maâ— 13. ver 25. we are the true reformed Catholikes â— reg 2. ver 27. 35. â— par 1â— 4. reg 8. 2. 2. pat 29. par 2â— 30. 31. 34. Mat. 10. â— 12 Luc. 12. â— 3â— Grat dist 4â— chap. 〈◊〉 Papâ— Ans. 2. q. 7. Cap. â—uâ—â— The Author takes it vpon his saluation thâ—â— hee dealeth truely 〈◊〉 delaâ—iâ— vigner dâ— verâ— fides â—â—ra in 16. cap. Mat. â—ose Aâ—â—â— â— s. p. 2. q. de excoâ— ar 4. dâ—â—f 1. The Popes double person Soto in 4 s d. 2. 4. 2. 〈◊〉 â— Quâ—dl â— â— 10. S. R. pag. 417. Lib. 6. de haâ—â—t cap qui conque caus 17 â— 4. cap. si â—uâ— Popery is a most meserarable religion Gers in Serpâ— de Pasck â— paâ—t The Pope â—rrâ—d as a publique person ie cannot be denied Alphon. â— Castrolib â— ad vers hâ—re ses â—rop◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bellarm. de â—um Pontifice lib 4. c. 14 â—â—te popeâ—y iâ— not the old but the new religion Diâ—it Adrianus A. D. 1171. A tricke of Legierdemaine A most blasphemous doctrine Marke this well Gers. prim art de eâ—am doct consid 2. Gers in pripart de appellat a Papa in propâ—sit This my selfe admit and beleeue Beliarm de concil libri 2. Cap. 2. The councell of CoÌ„stance deposed Pope Iohn Alphons lib 1. Cap. 4. aduers. haeres Celestine erred as Pope and publike person This fact of S.