Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	principle_n	prove_v	true_a	3,492	5	6.0076	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85082	Sir Lucius Cary, late Lord Viscount of Falkland, his discourse of infallibility, with an answer to it: and his Lordships reply. Never before published. Together with Mr. Walter Mountague's letter concerning the changing his religion. / Answered by my Lord of Falkland.	Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; White, Thomas, 1593-1676.; Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.; Triplett, Thomas, 1602 or 3-1670.	1651 (1651)	Wing F317; Thomason E634_1; ESTC R4128	179,640	346

then many texts as Cajetane Salmeron and Maldonate shall beare me witnesse unlesse like Sampson you may breake those Ropes by which others must be bound And adding to all this that our custome may serve to shew the meaning of the law when our selves were Authors of it though not when God is and that our generall custome arguing our united consent which onely gives force to our lawes may be as fit to bind as a law in civill cases and yet not in divine where the lawes proceed from a higher fountaine that such a rule may be good in civill resolutions which require but probable proofes and yet not in divine ones where according to the grounds of your Party which requires an undoubting assent to her doctrines as infallible infallible proofes are necessary especially this like other Topycall arguments having onely force caeteris paribus and againe good where it is not so necessary that the will of the Legislator be followed as that peace and quiet be preserved to which all alterations even to the better are enemies and yet not in these cases where we are to prefer the will of our Law-maker before any humane convenience or good if the custome past unquestioned when the Law was first promulgated but not if crept in after by negligence or plainely appearing to have been brought in-by power all this perswading me not to be so farr swaied by your Rules as you would have me I suppose you have small hope that not being so I should find either in Scripture or the first Antiquitie either that Faith which your Church proposeth or these properties of Christs Church by which your Church proves or rather strives to prove that she it is Give me leave besides to aske you one Question and that is What we shall conclude when the Christian practice of severall places have ever differed as that of Greece from that of Rome which it may also do in more places then we are acquainted with the extent of Christianitie being unknown to us as are the customes of some remote Christian Countries which we know Object Of the Philosopher I exact to goe like a Philosopher and to search out the specificall differences of every Sect and when he hath found them if any one but the Catholique hath any rule of faith and good life which I remit to him to enquire but at least when he hath found the Catholicks to be this claime of Tradition before declared then if this doe not bring him as demonstratively as he knoweth any Conclusion in Philosophy and Mathematicks to the notice of this is the onely true Church of Christ for my part I shall quit him before God and Man Resp I have examined the differences between all parts as you bid me and find the Protestants to have a sufficient rule of Faith and good life yea such a one as by Master Knotts confession Quem honoris causa nomino is as perfect as a writing can be And since a writing may containe all Doctrines and onely cannot give testimonie to it self nor be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I have no reason to think it inferior to that of their adversaries Your claime of Tradition I see plainely enough and as plainely that it is but a claime many of your side overthrowing it and others not of your owne pretending to it Bishop Fisher confesseth that Scripture and Miracles brought in the Doctrine of Purgatory and that againe the doctrine of Indulgences Erasmus who though himself no Martyr yet one who may passe for a Confessor having suffered and long by the Bigotts of both Parties and a dear Friend both to Fisher and his Colleague in Martyrdome Sir Thomas Moore who were the Deucalions of learning in this our Country makes yet a larger confession Non obscurum est quot opiniones invectae sunt in orbem per homines ad suum Quaestum callidos conflictorum Miraculorum praesidio These reasons alone allowing for brevities sake that I had no more would make me believe not onely that what you say concludes not geometrically but perswades not probably and consequently you by your promise have quitted me which without it I doubt not but God would have done Object The Divine if he hath truly understood the Principles of Faith in the nature of a Divine I mean Trinity Incarnation Redemption Eucharist Beatitude the Creation and Dissolution of the World and hath seen the exact conformity of the deepest Principles of Nature with an unspeakable wisdome of the Contriver If he doth not plainely confesse it was above the naure of man to frame the Catholique Religion and seeth not that onely that is conformable to Nature and it self I say he hath no ground sufficient to be of it Resp Supposing the greatest part of what you say to be true for I see not how a bare consideration even of these Doctrines will serve to prove them to come from Gods Revelation it might prove the Christian Religion against Pagans but for yours against Protestants I can draw out of it no Argument which if upon your explanation it appeares not to be through the default of the Lymbeck which I expect then the better I think of you the worse I shall think of your cause which would have ministred to so sharp an inquirer better proofes but that the old Axiom hindered it of Nihil dat quod non habet These Principles of Faith you speak of are agreed on by both Parts so out of their Truth and the impossibility of their being forged all the other points cannot be proved which have upon them no necessarie dependance and that your Religion is conformable to the deepest Principles of Nature I am so farr from seeing that I conceive your own opinion of Transubstantiation contradicts them almost all Neither see I any such unspeakablenesse in the contriving but that ordinary understandings by severall degrees in a long tract of many ignorant negligent ages egged on by ambition cloakt over by hipocrisie assisted by false miracles and maintained by tyrannie might easily both induce and establish them so that though we have hitherto differed in our premisses yet we meet in the Conclusion which is that I have no sufficient ground to be of your Religion Object The Statesman who is truely informed of the Church how farr is really of Christs institution and what either pious men have added or peradventure ambitious men encroacht if he doth not find a government of so high and exotick straine that neither mans wit dare to have attempted it neither mans power would possibly have effected it If he find no eminent helpes and no disadvantage to the temporall government I shall think there wants one starr in the heaven of the Church to direct these Sages to Bethlehem Resp I answer now in the person of a Statesman a part which but for this occasion I am sure never to have acted Thus I find so much policie in your Church for most part really and alwaies in voto

can know but the Judge If I say They confesse it to be his opinion they must also confesse the Doctrine of the Church to differ from that of Salvians time because he was allowed a member of that for all this saying whereas he of the Church of Rome that should now say so of us would be counted sesqui-heareticus a Heretick and halfe or else they must say which they can onely say and hot prove that he was so earnest against ill men that for the aggravation of their crime he lessened that of the Hereticks and said what at another time he would not have said which if they do will it not overthrow wholly the authority of the Fathers Since we can never infallibly know what they thought at all times from what they were moved to say at some one time by some Collatericall considerations Next To this certaine and undoubted damning of all out of the Church of Rome which averteth me from it comes their putting all to death that are so where they have power which is an effect though not a necessary one of the first-opinion and that averteth me yet more for I do not beleeve all to be damned that they damne but I conceive all to be killed that they kill I am sure if you look upon Constantines Epistle written to perswade concord upon their first disagreement between Alexander and Arrius you will find that he thought and if the Bishops about him had then thought otherwise he would have been sure better informed that neither side deserved either death or damnation and yet sure you will say this Question was as great as ever rose since for having spoken of the opinions as things so indifferent that the Reader might almost think that they had been fallen out at spurn-point or kittlepins he adds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for that which is necessary is one thing that all agree and keep the same Faith about divine Providence I am sure in the same Author Moses a man praised by him refusing to be made Bishop by Lucius because he was an Arrian and he answering that he did ill to refuse it because he knew not what his Faith was answered 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The banishing of Bishops shew enough thy Faith So that it is plaine that he thought punishing for opinions to be a mark which might serve to know false opinions by And I beleeve throughout Antiquitie you will find no putting any to death unlesse it be such as begin to kill first as the Circumcellians or such like I am sure Christian Religions chiefest glory being that it encreaseth by being persecuted and having that advantage of the Mahumetan which came in by force me thinks especially since Synesius had told us and Reason told men so before Synesius that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Every thing is destroyed by the contrary to what setled and composed it It should be to take ill care of Christianity to hold it up by Turkish meanes at least it must breed doubts that if the Religion had alwaies remained the same it would not be now defended by waies so contrary to those by which at first it was propagated I desire recrimination may not be used for though it be true that Calvin had done it and the Church of England a little which is a little too much for negare manifesta non audeo excusare immodica non possum yet she confessing she may erre is not so chargeable with any fault as those which pretend they cannot and so will be sure never to mend it and besides I will be bound to defend no more then I have undertaken which is to give reason why the Church of Rome is infallible I confess this opinion of damning so many and this custome of burning so many this breeding up those who knew nothing else in any point of Religion yet to be in a readinesse to cry To the fire with him to Hell with him as polybius saith in a certaine furious faction of an army of severall nations and consequently of severall languages 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They all joyned onely in understanding this word throw at him These I say in my opinion were chiefly the causes which made so many so suddenly leave the Church of Rome that indeed to borrow the same Authors Phrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They needed no perswasion to do it but onely newes that others had done it For as this alone if beleeved makes all the rest to be so too so one thing alone disliked where infallibility is claimed overthrowes all the rest If it were granted that it agreeth not with the goodnesse of God to let men want an infallible Guide and therefore there must be one and that the Church of Rome were it yet if that teach any thing to my understanding contrary to Gods goodnesse I am not to receive her Doctrine for the same cause for which they would have me receive it it being as good an argument this guide teacheth things contrary to Gods goodnesse therefore this is not appointed by God as to say it is agreeable to his goodnesse there should be one therefore there is one and sure it is lawfull to examine particular Doctrines whether they agree with that Principle which is their foundation and for that me thinks to damn him that neither with negligence nor prejudication searches what is Gods will though he misse of it is as contrary as the first can be supposed Next I would know whether he that hath never heard of the Church of Rome shall yet be damned for not beleeving her infallible I have so good an opinion of them as to assure my self they will answer he shall not I will then ask whether he that hath searched what Religions there are and finds hers to be one and her infallibility to be a part of it if his reason will not assent to that shall be damned for being inquisitive after Truth for he hath committed no other fault greater then the other and whether such an ignorance I mean after impartiall search be not of all other the most invincible Nay grant the Church to be infallible yet me thinks he that denies it and imploies his reason to seek if it be true should be in as good case as he that beleeveth it and searcheth not at all the truth of the Proposition he receives For I cannot see why he should be saved because by reason of his parents beleef or the Religion of the Country or some such accident the Truth was offered to his understanding when had the contrary been offered he would have received that And the other damned that beleeves falshood upon as good ground as the other doth truth unlesse the Church be like a Conjurers Circle that will keep a man from the Divell though he came unto it by chance They grant no man is an Heretick that beleeves not his Heresie obstinately and if he be no Heretick he may sure be saved It is not then certain

naturall order and will of the Maker ordred for the conservation of the most inward essence which is the charity we owe to God and our Neighbour Wherefore Christian life and action consisteth but upon one main tradition whose parts be those particulars which men specifie either in matter of Beleefe or Action So that this connextion of its parts amongst themselves added to the Spirit of God ever conserving zeale in the heart of his Church with those helpes also of nature wherewith we see wonders in this kind done will shew this conservation to be so far from impossibility that it will appeare a most con-naturall and fitting thing Let us but consider it constant nations their language their habits their manners of sacrificing eating generally living how long it doth continue amongst them See that forlorne nation of Jewes how constantly it maintaineth the Scripture how obstinately their errors The Arabians of the desert from Ismael his time unto this day live in families wandring about the desert Where Christians labour to convert Idolaters they find the maine and onely argument for their errors that they received them from their fore-fathers and will not quit them The King of Socotora thinking to please the Portugals by reducing a nation that had the name of Christians to true Christianity he found them obstinately protest unto him that they would sooner lose their lives then part with the religion their Ancestors had left them The Maronites a small handfull of people amongst Turks and Heretiques to this day have maintained their religion in Siria And certainly thousands of examples of this kind may be collected in all Nations and Countries especially if they be either rude and such as mingle not with others or such as be wise and out of wisedome seek to maintaine their ancient beleefe And Catholiques are of both natures For they have strict commands not to come to the Ceremonies and Rites of other religions and in their own they have all meanes imaginable to affect them to it and conserve a reverence and zeale towards it CHAP. VII TO come at length to the principall aime of this Treatise that is to give an answer to him that demandeth a guide at my hands I remit him to the moderne present visible Church of Rome that is her who is in an externe sensible communion with the externe sensible Clergy of Rome and the externe sensible Head and Pastour of the Church If he aske me now how he shall know her I suppose he meaneth how he should know her to be the true I must contreinterrogate him who he is that is in whose name he speaketh Is he an ignorant man Is he unlearned yet of good understanding in the world Is he a Scholler and what Scholler A Gramarian whose understanding hath no other helpe then of languages Is he a Phylosopher Is he a Divine I meane an Academicall one for a true Divine is to teach not to aske this question Is he a Statesman For he who can think one answer can or ought be made to all these may likewise expect that a round bowle may stop a square hole or one cause produce all effects and hang lead at his heels to fly withall Yet I deny not but all these must have the same guide though they are to be assured of that in divers sorts and manners If therefore the ignorant man speaketh I will shew him in the Church of God an excellencie in decencie Majestie of Ceremonies above all other Sects and Religions whereby dull capacities are sweetly ensnared to beleeve the truth they hear from whom they see to have the outward Signs of vertue and devotion If the unlearned ask I shew him the claim of Antiquitie the multitude the advantages of sanctity and learning the justifiableness of the cause how the world was once in this accord and those who opposed when they first parted first began the Schism how the points of difference be such as on the Catholike side help devotion and on the contrary diminish the same and such like sensible differences which will clearly shew a main advantage on the Catholike side which is the proportionall motive to his understanding To the Grammarian I will give two Memorandums First that seeing Catholiques were first in possession both of the Scriptures and the interpretations the adverse part is bound to bring such places as can receive no probable Exposition by the Catholikes It is not sufficient that their Expositions seem good or better that is more conformable unto the Text but they must be evincent to which no so sound answer even with some impropriety can be given For who knoweth not that is conversant in Criticks how many obscure and difficult places occurre in most plain Authors and the Scripture of all Books the greater part of the men who wrote them specially the new Testament being not eloquent and writing not in their native tongue for the most part are subject to many Improprieties The other Memorandum is That to prove a Catholike point by Scripture it is sufficient that the place brought do bear the Explication the Catholike beareth and if it be more probable by the very letter it is an evincent place The reason is Because the Question being about a Christian Law the Axioms of the Jurists taketh place that Consuetudo optima interpres Legis So that if it be manifest that Christian practise which was before the controversie be for the one sense and the words be tolerable no force of Grammar can prevail to equalize this advantage The Grammarian therefore who will observe these rules I turn him loose to the Scriptures and Fathers to seek in them what is the faith of Christ and properties of his Church to know her by Of the the Philosopher I exact to go like a Philosopher and to search out the pecificall differences of every Sect and when he hath found them if any one but the Catholike hath any rule of Faith and good life which I remit to him to enquire But at least when he hath found the Catholiques to be this claim of Tradition before declared then if this doe not bring him as demonstratively as he knoweth any conclusion in Philosophie and Mathematicks to the notice that this is the only true Church of Christ for my part I shall quit him before God and man The Divine if he hath truly understood the principles of his Faith in the nature of a Divine I mean Trinity Incarnation Redemption Eucharist Beatitude the Creation and Dissolution of the World and hath seen the exact conformitie with the deepest principles of nature with an unspeakable wisedome of the contriver If he does not plainly confesse it was above the nature of man to frame the catholike-Catholike-Religion and seeth not that onely that is conformable to nature and it selfe I say he hath no ground sufficient to be of it At last the Statesman who is truly informed of the Church how far it is really of Christs Institution and what

guide although he did his best to have a guide nothing lesse might fall out of his way as well as he who neglected the taking of one so if God sent his Sonne to shew us the way of Salvation and that be but one as well is he like not to be saved who never heard of such a way as he that heard of it and neglected it for neither of the two goeth that way and who goes not on the way is not like to come to the end I know God is good and mercifull but I know his workes as far as we know are dispensed by the order of second causes and where we see no second causes we cannot presume of the effects God is good and mercifull I know and feedeth the Birds of the aire and much more men yet we see in dearths and hard winters both men and Birds to perish doe they what they could to get victuals And how am I assured he will send Angels to illuminate such men as doe their endeavours that their soules may not perish But far more doe I doubt whether ever man who had not the way of Christ or even of those who walked in it did ever doe his best except some few and very few perhaps not two of Christ his greatest favourites and was not so culpable that his perdition would not have been imputed unto himselfe God of his mercy put us in the score of those of whom he saith He will take pitty upon whom he pleaseth and compassion of them he pleaseth FINIS THE LORD OF FAVLKLANDS REPLY SIR I Receive your intention to instruct me for a great Obligation but I should have esteemed it a greater if you would have pleased to let me know to whom I owe the Favour and should pay my thanks and if you had not translated the command of secresie from proper to metaphoricall Almes I am also to thank you for in this Age we are beholding to them who doe what is fit for not mixing Gall with your Inke since I have ever thought that there should bee as little bitterness in a Treatise of Controversie as in a Love-letter and that the contrary way was both void of Christian charitie and humane wisedome as serving onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to fright away the game Synesius and make their Adversarie unwilling to receive Instruction from him from whom they have received Injuries and making themselves unabler to discover Truth which Saint Austine sayes is hard for him to find who is calme but impossible for him that is angry raising besides a great suspition of ignorance in him that useth it since it is a very true Rule which we have received from Hierocles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Confidence of knowledge conduceth much to meeknesse Now in this I intend to take you for my pattern and the same Author for my Counsellour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and being able to overthrow what is false for so must I thinke I can and such I must take your reasons to be as long as they perswade me not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 resisting Errors without Anger and pursuing Truth with mildnesse Now this I must professe for my selfe that since I considered any thing in Religion and knew that there were severall of them in the world I never avoided to hear at least any man that was willing to perswade me by reason that any of them was the true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nay rather I have laid wait to meet with such of all sorts as were most likely to say most on their side as S. Chrysostome sayes of Abraham that he did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lay nets for Guests and though almost all that undertake the search of so important a Truth doe it better provided with sharpness of wit and soliditie of judgement yet I verily beleeve that few doe with that indifference and equalitie Which is fit for a Judge and with which I both began and continue it Yet least there might some un-mark't prejudice lye lurking in me and least I might harbour some secret inclination to those Tenets which I had first been taught I have ever lean'd and set my Byas to the other side and have both more discoursed of matters of Religion with those of the Church of Rome then with their Adversaries and read more of their writings though none either so often or so carefully as this which I am now answering both because it was intended for my Instruction and confutation as also because the beauty of the stile and language in which you have apparrelled your conceptions although Non haec Ovid. Metamorph Auxilio tibi sunt Decor est quaesitus ab istis yet showes the Author a considerable Person and I may say of the splendour and outside of what you have said for my opinion that it wants soliditie and that the Logick of it is inferiour to the Rhetorick is seen by my writing against it what Tacitus sayes of Vitellius his Annie Phalerae torquesque splendebant non Vitellio principe dignus exercitus for as he would have had that glorious Army been imployed in the defence of a better and braver Prince Xenophon Hist 3. so I wish your eloquence had guilded the better cause 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And having learn't moreover from the Pagan Divinitie of Hierocles which in this is conformable to that of most Christians that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that all our search is but the stretching forth of our hands and that our finding proceeds from Gods delivering the Truth unto us and that prayer is the best meanes to joyn the latter to the former I have not only with my utmost endeavours done my part but also besought God with my most earnest fervency to doe his and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 joyning Prayer to search like form to Matter I doubt not but God who hath given me a will to seek his Will also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb Orat. de Laud. Const and if I have not the truth already I shall be taught the truth by him and by you as his Instrument or shall be excused if I find it not assuring you that I was never more ready to part with my clothes when they were torn then with my opinions when they were confuted and appeared to me to be so To begin then with your Treatise you can say nothing for Tradition which I will not willingly allow Scripture it self being a Traditum and by that way comming to our knowledge for I am confident that those who would know it by the Spirit run themselves into the same Circle between Scripture and Spirit out of which some of your side have but unsuccessefully laboured to get out between Scripture and Church but that this way which you propound should be convenient to know what was Tradition at first I can by no means agree Which to consider the better I will comprehend all the strength of what you have said in a

and by them your selves out of which allowing that there be such a one which I doubt of and that to be yours I shall beleeve that some may be saved till I see some more cause to thinke all error in Religion alwaies damnable which it is plaine by what after you say that you thinke not your selfe and the Church taken in this sence which is your sence may maintaine both Propositions or to shew you how much what you say would make against your selfe thus I argue The true Church must hold that none can be saved out of her but your Church denies not but that some out of her may be saved therefore yours is not the Church My Major is included in your own saying that those two Propositions are not maintainable together My Minor though false yet is also your confession where you say that the Churches Proposition is not so cruell as it seemes though the words be rough and therefore so ought you to make my conclusion too Besides those who exclude all from Salvation who are out of the Church in the other sence meaning by it the Elect as they are not like them in the wrong so they are not occasion of much harme like them who stiling the Church a companie of men of such a beleife and under such a government affirme an impossibilitie of being saved out of it for they giving no visible signe of who is in the Church for who can know the Elect but the Electer cause no want of Charitie nor frequencie of Warre and persecutions by it as the others doe who having made first a visible partition least those who are out of it may draw others out too they send them out of the world by way of prevention Resp But per adventure he is scandalized that the Catholick Church requireth actuall Communion externall with her which he thinketh may in some case be wanting without detriment of Salvation But how would he have the Church speake which speaketh in common but abstracting from such particular cases as may change wholly the Nature of the Question Repl. I am scandalized not because you require to Salvation joining with you in Communion but because also you require joyning with you in opinions and if it were onely this yet am not I any whit satisfied with what you say for it for with the true Church that is the Commpany of true believers in points any way materiall or rather the truest I conceive it not damnation sometimes not to communicate For if they have any never so slight errors and which appeares so to me which yet they will force me to subscribe to if I Communicate with them my assent would be damnable or if they require the same subscription to some truths which yet after my reall indeavours in inquiry appear errors to me I doubt not but my refusall is no way damnable Neither can I absolve your Church concerning this her saying for your reason because she speakes in generall wholly abstracting from particulars which change the nature of the Question for why doth she so why doth she not expresse her exceptions or at least tell us that the rule is not so generall but that it will beare some and not make men who know not that she intends to restraine at all what she so absolutely pronounceth and who will find no cause to take your bare word for her intentions many times at least to hate them as Gods enemies whom he loves as his friends and beleeve them to fry in Hell who shine in Heaven Howsoever if she use to expresse herself in rougher words then her meaning is how apt may she be to be mistaken in severall of her resolutions and consequently how easie is it for some age to have misunderstood the past and deceive the following Neither do I like your example because that is not to differ from the Church but to mistake her meaning though even he who should denie that there were three Gods if he thought that by the Trinitie your Church so meant must consequently think her not infallible and so by your grounds be consequently a Heretick Resp The current of Catholick Doctors that no man shall be damned for infidelity but he who doth wilfully misbeleeve and that to do so it is required that Faith be sufficiently proposed unto him and what is to be sufficiently proposed is not determined amongst them There wanteth not Divines who teach that even ignorantia affectata doth excuse from Heresie On the other side it is most certaine that no man is damned for not professing what he is not damned for not believing Wherefore profession being that which engrafteth a man exteriorly in the Church according unto the ordinary opinions of the Catholicks it followeth that no man is condemned for not being of the Church who is not for infidelity for which it is a very uncertaine Case who be damned and who be not Repl. As the King of Spaine after long calling the Hollanders Rebels at last for his own sake descended to treat with them as free States so those of your Religion when they hope to gaine a Proselite thunder out to him crudelity and without any of these Mollifications which you now use that extra Ecclesiam Romanam nulla est salus there is no salvation out of the Roman Church And Master Knot peremptorily avers that no Catholick of an entire fame ever taught that a Protestant so dying could be saved yet when they are press'd with the consequences they can as it seems vouchsafe to give us better words and find 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 enough to soften this opinion though such as bring them more disadvantage in other considerations then help in this For first as before it seemed that you are not fully agreed either about the authority of the councels or what constitutes the Church by your avoiding to speak concerning it so now it seemes that neither are you resolved of what constitutes an Heretick and then what remaines there for you to know if what you account infallible and what damnable be yet both uncertaine to you Secondly Since you confesse none to be a Heretique but he to whom the truth is sufficiently proposed and when that is you are not resolved what a more then Sythian Barbarousnesse is it to make a coale of a Christian onely upon suspicion of Heresie especially since the Pagans themselves had Christian Charity enough to perswade them that it was much better that a guilty person should escape then an innocent be punished much more should you rather suffer the tares to grow then venture to pluck up the corne with it and beleeve the best when the truth lies hid in a place so hard to search into as is the heart of man into which as none entered the Sanctum Sanctorum but the High Priest God onelie can have admittance Resp The other point was of putting Hereticks to death which I think he understandeth to be done vindicatively not medicinally I

there is some such Guide and Judge required since sure you receive not that upon its own authoritie and if men may find the necessitie of a Guide and Judge without any Guide or Judge and remain in Unitie about that why may they not also about whatsoever is clearly taught by God which reason assures us to be all that is necessarie and if you say that all things necessarie are not clearlie taught because we do not though it proves not that we might not agree upon them then I replie that I may as well say that neither is it cleare that there is a Guide because we dissent from you in it although receiving the authoritie of the Scripture out of which Cardinall Perron confesseth that Saint Austine saith that both the necessitie of your guide the Church and she her self are to be known and reason which as they may be plain in this point for you and yet perswade us not so may they be in all necessarie points and yet we who make theirs our ground not perswade one another As little see I why there can be no Entitie nor Church where there is no Unitie For the first though there be small Unitie among Christians yet certainly Christians and their Religion have some Entitie indeed if what you say were true there were no Entitie in yours For the second I know not why two parties over-valuing their differences may not conceive each other to be none of the Church and so declare even by excommunications and yet remain both Parts of it for if a Husband misse-suspecting his Wife of Adulterie declare her to be no longer his Wife this cannot make her give over being so if the bond be indeed not broken as well as Chrysostome and Epiphanius both excommunicated by each other and yet both Saints or as particular men may by your own confession be interiorly in the Church although seeming out of it even to the Church her self and so those be both of the Church between whom there is no Unity For not onely in your own Cariophilus his words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but also though the persons have power yet if the cause have not sufficiencie I take you to agree that an excommunication is but a brutum fulem as Victors of the Asian Bishops The best therefore and strictest definition and which I think you will not refute which I can give for the Church is especially in that sence as out of it there can be no salvation those who are desirous to know Gods Will or Christs at the strictest for I am not certaine nor I beleeve is it defined among you whether an explicite knowledge of Christ be absolutely necessarie to Salvation though I know no guiltlesse ignorance of him can bring unavoidably upon any man eternall torments and ready when known to beleeve and follow it and sure many of these may eternally disagree even in points which are necessarie abstracting from particular cases and yet their differences not exclude them from the Church and consequentlie a Church may be without Unitie Quod erat demonstrandum Resp Now for the Controversies mentioned besides that there is a meanes to terminate them they be such as bring no breach of the ancient life and action of Christians which all those opinions do which for the most part are reputed to make Hereticks Repl. You saw verie well that if no Unitie no Church were a true Proposition yours hath in it differencies enough to destroy its being a Church and therefore are faine to applie what salves you can but all in vaine For your meanes to terminate them doth not make them not to be before they are terminated and consequently by your Rule yours is no Church till then Besides their bringing to breach of the ancient life and action of Christians proves not but one of them may be a Heresie since you say not your selfe that all Heresies are such but onelie for the most part and indeed to prove that you must be able to set down what those opinions are which before a definition may make a Heretick which I beleeve you will not venture to doe in haste though we much desire it at your hands that we may know if none of them be such Resp That some controversies amongst us are not resolved is a thing necessarie amongst humane affaires where things must have a time to be born to encrease to fall and the greater things are the greater is their Period Repl. It is true that some time to be taken notice of must passe between an opinions rising and being condemned but that so long they should run on and many of your Councels having since been held is sure not necessarie and shewes that you esteem not Unitie so necessarie as you pretend some opinions I am sure you can soon enough quash as that not long since risen in Spaine concerning Fornication being but a Veniall Sin And whereas you say the greater things are the greater their period though this be ture in some things yet not in this for sure the greater a difference is the greater necessitie is there that it be soon decided and so if your decision have power to effect it as you pretend among you it hath it must fall as soon as it is born like the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Creatures that live but a day Resp Wherefore I do not see why this may hurt the Church more then the suits which hang in our Courts prejudice the government of the Land Repl. If any of these opinions be of that importance as that though uncondemn'd the Holders are Hereticks as some may be and my definition being concluded of such among you some of these may be some of them then sure they hurt the Church much and more then the Suites hurt the Government which their hanging hurts not at all though it hurts sometimes unavoidablie the Parties But if where there is no Unitie there were no Common-wealth as you say where there is no Unitie there can be no Church then the Government were much prejudic'd by the Suits as your Church by this rule is made no Church by the differences And indeed if men were not agreed about the power of the Governours as you are not about some of your questions it must be a maime to the government of any Common-wealth as consequentlie these are to the goverment of your Church Resp The last point of the Authors discourse is to shew how errors might have crept in wherein I shall have no opposition with him for I doe not thinke the question is how they should creep in but how they should be kept out Repl. Here Sir I cannot but beleeve that you intended to refresh your selfe with some Mirth as with Musicke between the Acts for though both our ends be that errors should not creep in yet the question was whether it were possible that they might creepe in and to my affirmative part it conduced to shew those waies by which either they

the lesse visible when they are so for not being after remembered as a man may be a Gentleman though he know not his pedigree So that as I will not affirm that there were alwaies such because I cannot prove it so neither ought they to make themselves sure there were none without they could prove that which is impossible and therefore no Argument can be drawn from thence and if it could be proved that such a no-waies-erring Church must at all times be I had rather beleeve that there were still such though we know them not which may be true then that theirs is it which in may opinion cannot Thirdly He saies that he could find no one point of controverted Doctrine whereupon all the rest depended but that this one Question of Fact was such as the decision of it determined all the rest To this I answer That the Question of the Infallibilitie of the Pope at least of those who adhere to him which they call the Church is such a one as if determined must determine all the rest and not onely to us but to all men whereas this though granted necessarie and determined to his wish would indeed conclude against us but not for them since the Greek Church would put in as good a Plea upon the Title of Visibility as that of Rome and he would be to begin anew with them when he had ended with us Fourthly He gives his reason If Luther could be evicted to be the Innovator his Religion is then evicted of not being the true ancient and and Apostolicall To this I answer by confessing the consequence but he might be the Renovator and no● the Innovator and then no such consequence followes Fifthly He saies we are bound to find an existence of some Professors of the reformed Religion before Luther which requirie is bound upon his supposition of the necessitie of a continuall succession of a visible and no-waies erronious Church Now I will first examine the sence of his tearms By the first I conceive by a place he cites out of Saint Austine that he meanes visible to all Nations but I pray hath his been alwaies so I mean at least for many Centuries to those Nations which Columbus hath not long since discovered By the second tearm Church I suppose he meanes a Company of Christians holding neither more or lesse then Christ taught for in a more large sence no man denies the Church to have been alwaies in some degrees visible and in this sence I not onely deny it necessarie that it should be alwaies visible but that it should alwaies be for I doubt whether there be or for a long while have been any such Next That such a one he meanes appeares because when Catalogues have been brought of some who in all Ages have differed from them in things which we hold his side would not accept of them because they agreed not with us in all things and yet when Campian intends to prove all the Fathers to be his he useth onely this course of instancing in some things wherein they agree with him though sometimes not so much but rather the contrary ought to be inferred as in the instance of Polycarpus for comparing his words with the Historie it will appear that he concluded him a Papist for not being perswaded by the Pope though they differed from them in many other as indeed all the notable Fathers did in more then one point I will therefore say that if this be required to shewing that a Church hath been ever visible it is more then either part can do and therefore I hope they will come upon better consideration to confesse that not necessarie for us to do which is impossible for themselves For let any man look into Antiquitie I will not say without all prejudice but without an absolute Resolution of seeing nothing in it that contradicts his present beleefe and if he find not some opinions of the Church of Rome as unknown unto Antiquity as either he or I as the Popes Indulgences having power to deliver out of Purgatorie confest by Bishop Fisher and Alphonsus de Castro where they treat of Indulgences if he find not others at first unknown after known but not held de fide which are so at Rome as Prayer to Saints their enjoying the Beatificall Vision before the day of Judgement Tom. 9. An. 726. de fide Simbol the Assumpti of the Blessed Virgin and herbeing free from all actuall sin if he find not some wholly unknown and absolutely condemned which we condemne as the lawfullnesse of Picturing God the Father whereof the first is confest by Barronius in the Margent to an Epistle of a Pope 2 Lib. C. 2. which saies the same and the latter to be found in many places of Saint Austine Lactantius and others nay if he find not that all the Doctors Saints Martyrs of the two first Ages I mean as many as are now extant and speak of it held something which both parts condemne as the opinions of the Chiliasts If I say he find not this or I shew him not that he might have found it I professe I will be ready to spend my life for that Church against which I now employ my Pen So that this will be the end neither of your Churches have been alwaies visible onely the difference is this that we are most troubled to shew our church in the Latter and more corrupt Ages and they theirs in the first and purest that we can least find ours at night and they theirs at Noone And whereas he expects that Doctor White should stand to this to confesse his Religion false if a continuall descent of it cannot be demonstrated if he himself will please to grant as much as he exacts if he but continue in this resolution and in this search I doubt no more but that he will soone leave to be a Papist then I should doubt if I saw him now receiving the Communion in the Kings Chappell that he had done it already Sixtly His Reasons for the necessitie of the Visibility follow because the contrary were a derogation from Gods Power or Providence I anser To say he could not keep the Truth exactly in mens beleefe were to derogate from Gods Power to say he had not given sufficient meanes to find the Truth and yet damned men for error the first would be a derogation from his Providence the second from his Justice but to say he suffers men to erre who neglect the meanes of not erring and that he damnes none for a meer error in which the will hath no part and consequently the man no fault derogates from none of the three but saies he this is repugnant to the maine reason why God hath a Church upon Earth to be the conserver of the Doctrine of Christ and to conveigh it from Age to Age. I answer To conserve it is every mans duty but such as they may all faile in and indeed is rather