is the heauenlie sacrament which trulie representeth Christs flesh is called Christs bodie but improperlie wherefore it is called after the sort thereof but not in truth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie So as the meaning is It is called the bodie of Christ that is it signifieth And in a word because you bite so hard vpon the word Sacrifice wheresoeuer you finde it in Augustine or others let Augustine himselfe interprete what force that word hath how it is to be taken A true sacrifice saith he is euerie worke which is done that by a holie felowship we may cleaue fast to God De Ciu. Del. lib. 10. cap. 6. to wit referred to that end of good by which we maie truelie be blessed Which in the end of that chapter he applieth to the sacrament This is the sacrifice of Christians we being manie are one bodie in Christ vvhich also the Church in the sacrament of the Altar knovven to the faithfull doth frequentlie obserue Thus haue you no helpe from Augustine for your grosse opinion of carnall presence and for your Popish sacrifice and consequently by your owne forcible reason from none of the rest of the Fathers for no reason as you say can moue vsto thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all others of his time Now therefore out of the examination of those fewe questions let all such as be desirous of truth and salution of their soules discerne what helpe you haue from venerable antiquitie for your Popish and Romish Superstition PAPIST The third reason Sundrie points of our Religion generallie mislâ—ked by our adnâ—rsartes befor all that true according to their owne principles and consequentlie agreeable to sacred Scripture this though it seeme strange yet is iâ— thus plainlie proued In their communion booke authorised by act of Parliament we finde prescribed hovv the sicke person ought to make a speciall confession of his sins to the In the visitation of the sicke special confession Priest and it vvill not helpe them to saie that they are not bound to confesse al thir sins but such only as do trouble their coÌ„science for vvhat if all that come to minde do trouble them as vve thinke all should seing all according to their doctrine be mortall and damnable And besides gladlie vvould I knovv that text of Scripture vvhich commandeth the confession of some sinnes and not of all let them name the place Secondlie vve find there also prescribed how after confession the Priest must absolue him in this maner Our Lord Iesus Christ c. and by his authoritie committed to Absolution from sinnes me I absolue thee from all thy sinnes In the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost What vvords for the Priests absolution can be wished more plaine being the same in English vvhich in Latine be vsed in the Catholike Church PROTESTANT No doubt you were put to your shifts when out of ProtestaÌ„t principles you would take in hand to proue the truth of Popish religion which either you do to spende some time in idle talke to no purpose or else you must needes ascribe the credit of truth to Protestant principles for thus your reason must be framed VVhatsoeuer agreeth vvith the Protestant principles is true Sundry points of Popâ—sh religion agree vvith Protestant principles Therefore sundrâ—e points of Popish religion are true We thanke you for yeelding true witnes to the Protestant religion and yet we thanke you not much for sure it was against your will and was onely vpon some hope to countenance Poperie by the meanes Againe see another reason of your owne making for the truth of Protestant religion Sundrie points of our religion are true according to the ProtestaÌ„t principles and consequently agreeable to sacred scripture Bring your owne reason into forme will it not be this VVhatsoeuer is true according to Protestant principles is agreeable to sacred scriptures Sundrie points of Poperie are true according to Protestant principles Therefore they are agreeable to sacred scriptures We thanke you the second time for confessing so cleerly that the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scriptures And in kindnesse towards you for your double testimony so frankly affourded for the truth of Protestant religion wee are bounde to yeelde thus much vnto you that if any point of Poperie be true according to the principles of our religion then surely it is agreeable to sacred scriptures For surely all the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scripture as very ingeniously you haue confessed and I hope will not reuoke But indeede strange it were as out of a faint heart you confesse that any point of Popery should be true according to Protestant principles and therefore doubtles you are out of hope to proue any point of Poperie true by that meanes Let vs see then what be the points Our Communion booke vvould haue the sicke person visited to make a speciall confession of he feele his conscience troubled vvith any vveightie matter and vvhen he hath so done vvilleth the Priest to absolue him by the authoriâ—e of Christ What of all this Is this popish Eareshrift the booke saith a speciall not an auricular confession Secondly doth the booke set the sicke mans conscience vpon the rack to reueale to the Priest all his sinnes by number with the time place and manner as without which he cannot be saued you finde no such matter there onely the Church giues him aduise for the ease of his conscience to vnburthen himselfe by confession of those sinnes which at that time trouble his conscience Thirdly if no sinne at that time trouble his conscience he is not willed to make any confession and if any sinne hath troubled his conscience in former time if by confessing the same to any faithfull Christian brother he haue receiued comfort to the peace of his conscience before the Priest come to visite him he is not insnared with any scruple of conscience that except he confesse it to the Priest he cannot be forgiuen You obiect First what if all his sinnes that come to minde trouble his conscience as you thinke all shoulde seeing according to our doctrine all be mortall and damnable I answere what if they do not trouble his conscience then doth our booke require no confession at his hands wheras all must of necessity come to your Popish shrift whether their consciences be troubled or no. And by the way all men may see what peace of conscience Popery breeds that leaues men vnder the torture of an accusing conscience for all the sinnes they can remember and that euen in the howre of death The holy Apostle Saint Paul 1. Tim. 1. 13. remembreth that in former time he had beene a blasphemer a persecutor and oppressor yet was not his conscience troubled at this time for he addeth presently that hee was receiued to mercie It could not be that he should apprehend and applie to
Sess 3. cap. 1. Can. 1. body is in the sacrament Circūscriptiuè But your Trent Councell saith that the body of Christ is conteined in the sacrament of the Eucharist Wherfore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself which he could not tell how to expresse nor would haue any disputation about the maner yet in as much as he was farre from allowing your Popish charme whereby you worke your monstrous Transubstantiation nor helde any carnall eating neuer alleage Martin Luthers Real presence to giue countenance to your carnall presence The Apologie may well acknowledge him an excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world and yet not allow of his error in any thing neither will we say that euery wrong beliefe euen in matter of the sacrament bringeth damnation to a godly man otherwise holding the foundation And lastly Martine Luthers priuate opinion is no principle of our religion as you very well know PAPIST These things being so with what conscience can the Protestants iustlie exclaime against vs for defending a speciall confession of our sinnes absolution of the Priest the vse of Images and the picture of Christ crucified the holie ceremonies of oile and exorcisme copes and holie vestiments that Angels know our praiers and may be praied vnto that Christs soule descended into hell for the deliuerie of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament when as all these points either in expresse termes or by necessarie consequence be gathered out of the grounds of their owne Religion PROTESTANT These things being so that no one of the points mentioned is any principle of our Religion nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge do we agree with the Papists and the last of the seauen is none of ours with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Popish idolatrie out of the principles of our religion in the end neither build vpon any principle of our Religion nor proue any agreement betweene Popish confession and absolution and that which the Church of England vseth betweene the signe of the Crosse as it is vsed in the Church of England and Popish Images betweene Godfathers and Abrenunciation and popish oile and exorcisme as now they are betweene the decencie of the Surples and the superstition of Popish vestemints betweene the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hel Popish Limbus no nor yet betweene Martin Luthers Real presence and Popish carnal presence wheras no one of these Popish points can either in expresse terms or by any necessary cōsequēce be gathered either out of any principle orany practise or ceremonie in our religion as hath been shewed PAPIST The Fourth reason That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was intended by the holie Ghost and none can deny but al this is verified of the Catholike Church and not of the Protestant as a fewe plaine arguments shall make manifest First therefore no reason in the world can the Protestants aleage to proue that the scriptures be theirs or to iustifie their interpretation which we cannot bring also for vs. For let them pretend conference of places recourse to the fountaines of the Greeker Hebrue or what else they will all that we can say for our selues and with a◠great probability as they and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior On the cōtoary we to maintaine our expositiō beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers the cōmon practise of Gods Church the decrees of generall Councels none of which they will stand to and therefore in all equity and reason wee passing much superiour can we then lacke the true sense of scripture that haue all these to backe our interpretation specially that of Gods Church in generall councels or can the Protestants haue it that be destitute of all these as their deniall of them doth euidentlie proue and conuince PROTESTANT This forcible Reasoner seemeth now as if he would come to vs and ioyne issue with vs to be tryed by the Scriptures whether the Popish Church or our Church be the true Church But surely if there be no more force in his reason then plainenes in his dealing this reason wil be like his fellowes and so proue neither forcible nor plaine For when the reckoning of his reason is cast vp he calleth backe the triall of the true Church from the scriptures to his pretended Fathers and Councels and againe from them to Gods Church that is in his meaning the Popish Church from whence all vseth to be deuolued to the Pope And so in conclusion the question being whether the Popish Church be the true Church we must be tried by the Pope who were much to blame if he would not say that his owne Church is the true Church for euen theeues will say that they are honest men Your owne Cannon law hath prouided that in all matters of faith all men yea euen all Bishops must referre themselues to the Pope Quoties c. As often as anie matter Caus 24. q. 1 of faith is debated I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops ought to referre the matter to none but to Peter that is to the authoritie of his name and honour What is the authority of Peters name and honour but the Pope and therefore the Glosse there setteth downe in the margent It is the Popes office to determine a question moued about faith And Thomas Aquinas It belongeth to faith to sticke to the Popes determination Opuse con error Graec. it matters of faith yea and in those things also that belong to good manners If then in matter of faith or maners we cannot agree vpō sense of scripture the Pope must strike the stroke which he will be sure shall not hurt himselfe So very fitly agreeth vnto you that which Athanasius speaketh against Orat. 1. con Arria◠the Arrians They presume to determine of faith and being themselues guiltie and obnoxious to indgment like vnto Caiaphas they vsurpe the office of indging These are the men that will proue their Church to be the true Church by hauing the scriptures on their side but they will be the interpretors of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope Well go too though vnder the bare pretence of scriptures you meane to bring in the Pope yet let vs see how you proue that the popish Church which you falsly call the Catholike Church hath the scriptures on her side and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost Your first argument is onely a vaine brag Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositiōs that the Protestāts can bring for theirs as conference of places recourse to the fountaines and what else they will and with as great probabilitie as they Why then do you not vse to follow
God had not 2. Thes 2. 10. 11. sent you strong illusions to beleeue lies because you would not beleeue the truth it could not be that you should thus grope at noone day and still call for proofe in that which is so abundantly proued After the Popes had once fully gotten into the chaire of Apostasie the ashes of those witnesses of God whom for the testimonie of Iesus Christ you haue slaine as they are kept in store for a witnesse against you on earth so their spirits now in heauen do cry against you as the bloud of Abel against Cain Since the discouery of that Man of sinne in these latter yeares you haue found our congregations through Gods goodnesse much thicker in all nations then you would haue suffered if your Nimrods armes had bene as long as they are wont to be But what if we should onely answer you that the first of these 1600. is more in triall of truth then all the rest as that one day of the institution of Matrimonie betweene one man Math. 19. 4. and one woman ioyned together by an vnseparable knot is more to proue the integritie thereof then all the yeares succeeding wherein Polygamie and Dinorce had preuailed Would you renounce the triall of these incorrupted times and appeale to the latter wherein sundry corruptions were apparantly crept in What were this else but to shunne the light as the maner of deceiuers and euill doers is What the religion of this hundreth was nay what it ought to be for euer let the Apostolike writers witnesse and it the Religion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught beleeued and practised in that hundreth let all the latter times know that they are too young to controle it much more let Popish noueltie retire into the schooles and cloysters where it was bred Lastly all the times succeeding haue imbraced the Scriptures as the very word of God haue retained the confession of faith called the Apostles Creede as agreeable to holy Scriptures and only herein haue sought for the Canon and rule of truth The Protestant congregations holding the same faith and seruing God by the same rule haue therefore on their sides the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ from Christ to his Apostles to this day auouching the faith and seruice of God which they follow and practise and are compassed with a greater cloude of witnesses then all the Popish Canonists Summists Iesuits and Disputants shall euer be able to shew Hence I thus conclude The faith of the first hundreth recorded in the Scriptures and reteined in the ages following holding firmely the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith and they so beleeuing and holding the true Church The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church PAPIST They say they haue beene though innisible and they know not where This answer cannot serue nor yeeld any content to a soule desirous of truth For what man carefull of saluation would leaue a Church alwayes visible and knowne as ours hath beene and follow a congregation the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memorie and was neuer heard of before for many ages together as themselues cannot deny PROTESTANT As your religion consists wholly of errors so you must needs defend it by lies and that against your owne knowledge if at least you haue informed your selfe of the truth of that we say Were not Christ and his Apostles visible were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitiue Church visible say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did professe and practise according to the Scriptures whereas on the other side wherein soeuer you differ from vs you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and haue new forbished erroneous and hereticall opinions and build vpon mens imperfections and frailties and those neither agreeing with the Scriptures nor with the analogie of that faith which themselues mainteined taught Why then shame you not to affirme that we know not where the witnesses teachers of our religion haue bin for so your meaning must be True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Synagogue wherby you beare the ignorant in hand that yours is the true Church We answer truely and proue it by instance of the times of Elias and of our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles that the synagogue of Satan is oftentimes and for long time more visible then the Church of God and of Christ and that the Church of Christ is like the Moone as In Psal 10. Augustine Augustine compares it which sometime giues no light at all This our answer may giue content to euery soule that is desirous of truth especially such as will take the paines to search the Scriptures whether the things we say be so or no. As for that your bad asseueration that your Church hath beene alwaies visible and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memorie And was neuer heard of before in many ages together as our selues you say cannot deuie it is euen as true as the rest of your religion Vnfold vs the antiquity of that capitall and fundamentall point of your religion Subesse Extran com de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam Romano pontifici est de necessitate salutis This is your principle of principles and yet as it is contrarie to all records of Scripture wherin there are no footsteps of any such dependance so is it controlled by the cleare testimony of all antiquitie by the primitiue state and constitution of the churches Concil Afric cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil Niceu Can. 6. Epist lib. 6. epist 30. li. 4. epist 38. in all the Christian world and by the iudicious sentence of Gregorie the first a Bishop of Rome And can we not deny that the beginning of our congregation is yet in fresh memorie c. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophisticall equiuocation which is now become the idiome and proper language of poperie True it is indeede that the recouery of that libertie which by Gods mercy our Churches now enioy since they came out of the spirituall Babylon which is the Romish Synagogue may be fetched out of late memorie But is this the question betweene vs Or rather whether the beginning of that religion which giues the beeing to our churches and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memorie If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday then so is ours But if theirs be from the beginning our religion being the same beginneth not one day or howre later then theirs did Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglorie of your synagogue be
before in the daies of Helkias the Priest But chuse you whether you will cease your wrangling about mens names or not and be it knowen to you that we will search the scriptures in which alone wee beleeue to Iohn 5. 39. haue eternall life and which only beare vnto vs infallible witnes of Christ and of all true Religion necessarie to saluation How beit were your succession any thing worth to the finding out of truth when or how shall it be agreed whether Liuus or Clemens succeeded Peter whether Cletus and Anacletus be one man or if they be two which is the first or which must be put out of the succession or whether Clemens be before them or either of them for these vncertainties are in the highest roundes of this your ladder of succession Tell vs whether Pope Ioaue haue not made a foule cracke in your succession or what we shall make of your 30. Schismes whereof the twentie ninth continued the space of 50 yeares together first with two Popes at once then with three vntil the Councell of Constance remoued them all three and set vp Martin 5. since your Church representatiue in the councel iudged against them al three may we not rightly iudge that your succesion was quite broken off and none of these 3 nor they to whom they succeeded during that Schisme were true successors of Peter How euer it be make your succession as strong as you can Except Cum successione Episcopatus With the succession of the Chaire they haue receiued Veritatis charisma certū the vndoubted Iren lib. 4. cap. 43. gift of truth we make no reckoning of it As for your Austen who you say conuerted vs Englishmen it is well knowen that this Iland had receiued the faith long before Austen was borne in the daies of Kinge Lucius and euen at that time had true religion in better order in more sincerity then Austen himself except there were any more sincerity in his doctrine then in his superstitious and vaineglorious ceremonies vpon which together with your cloysters and dennes God in his mercie hath brought the confusion of Babel as appeareth this day and shall do we trust more and more PAPIST Out of this reason maie one quicklie learne that all points of our religiō be most true as praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons the Real presence Confession of sinnes though oach one knowe not howe to defende them nor perceiue vpon what groundes they stand for seeing we haue now prooued that our Church is the true Church of Christ consequently we are to beleeue that which it teacheth because she cannot erre in matters of faith for if shee could then might we as well be damned being members of the true Church of Christ as members of the false and not for a wicked life but for a wrong beleefe which cannot be and to free vs from all such doubtes Saint Paul affirmeth that the Church is the piller and ground of truth This ought to be a great comfort to all 1 Tim. 3. 15. vnlearned Catholikes that cannot enter into the deepe misteries of Christian religion PROTESTANT No doubt you must needs proue a forcible Reasoner that out of one sophisticall Syllogisme full of equiuocation as hath beene shewed from a reason pretended of the continuance of the Church inuifible reputation as you say for the space of 1600. yeares which by your owne confession will serue the Iewish synagogue as well as your supposed Church yet as if you had stricken the matter dead presume out of hand that all is proued You haue now proued that your Church is the true Church of Christ They that will bee caried away with such proofes it skils not greatly of what Church they be They surely dote vpon the Romish harlot and follow her for blinde loue and not for reason But let vs further examine how forcibly you build vpon this sandie foundation If your Church be the true Church then all must be beleeued that she teacheth And therefore praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons c. For she cannot erre in matters of faith were not the Churches of Galathia true Churches Is not the bringing in of Circumcision to be ioyned with faith in Christ as necessary to Gal. 1. 6. saluation an error in matter of faith Did not the Galathians erre in that point in so much that the Apostle reproues them as those that had remoued to another Gospell If the members of a true church ought to beleeue all that the church teacheth them who could blame the Galathians in this point yet Paul spares not to call them foolish Againe were not the Apostles the true Church yet did they erre euen after Christs resurrection not onely before the receiuing of the holy Ghost but after also and that in matter of faith before the holy Ghost came downe they Act. 1. 6. dreamed of restoring the externall kingdome of Israel and that by Christ After they had receiued the holy Ghost Act. 10. 14. Peter iudged some meates vncleane and was doubtfull of going into the vncircumcised and eating with them vntill he was better informed by an heauenly vision Neither was this error proper to him alone and yet had he bene Pastor of Pastors and the highest Bishop in the Church from whose lippes all truth was to be receiued how could the Church haue bene free from this error for as Gregory saith Epist lib. 6. epist 34. Si vnus Episcopus vocatur vniuersalis vniuersa Ecclesiacorruit Si vnus vniuersus cadit That is If one Bishop be called vniuersall the whole Church is ruinated if that one vniuersall do fall but common to all the rest of the Apostles as appeareth both in that he was called to an account before the Apostles Act. 11. 3. and the Church for entring in vnto Cornelius and alleaging his warrant both by vision and speciall oracle satisfied them so as they now first came to discerne that God vnto the Gentiles also had graunted repentance vnto life and Vers 18. therefore held their peace and glorified God and also in that when some came from Iames he withdrew himselfe from Gal. 2. 12. the Gentiles which he would not haue done if the true Church had not as then bene vnsetled in this point of faith That which befell vnto the Apostolike church may much more befall vnto the church of Rome as the like hath done vnto many other churches and therefore it follows not because the church of Rome was once the true church that either it cannot erre or must needs continue the true church still Such braggers as you were those Rabbies that conspired against Ieremie presuming as you do that the law should not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor Ier. 18. v. 18. the word from the Prophets that is that the church could not erre but the Lord by Ezechiel tels them that build vpō that false principle that when they shall come to
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
the thing is so euident and certaine That Saint Gregorie likewise coined not a new religion but kept that which by continuall succession descended vnto him from Saint Peter is as sure and certaine for if he had all the Christian world would haue exclained against him and yet no such complaint is to be found in anie Historie or writer but all highlie commend him for his holinesse and learning and in our English calender he is inrolled for a Saint and the like we may saie of all his predecessors for none of them was euer noted by anie to haue degenerated in anie one article of faith from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles and well knowen it is that 32. of the first were glorious Martyrs and shed their bloud for the name of Christ PROTESTANT That your popish Church hath continued 1600 yeares is so certaine as it is that your later Popes haue beene and are like those 32 Martyrs whose emptie number you bring forth to gaine credit vnto that degenerate rable that haue succeeded them not in shedding their owne bloud for the truth of Christ as they did but in spilling much Christian bloud partly about strange and vniust quarrels partly by treasonable and rebellious commotions of their owne raising partly by bloudy and fiery persecucions And therefore the succession of your Popes to those Martyrs is noe more credit to you then succession to Moses was to the Scribes and the Pharisees or succession to Aaron was to Annas Caiaphas As in place they succeed godly Bishops so in doctrine they succeed the Scribes and Pharisees and many Heretikes in irreligion and prophanes they succeed Lucian and Porphyrie in tyranny and cruelty Annas and Cayphas and the old persecuting Emperors of Rome into Reuel 13. 15. whose dead image they haue put life againe That which the Apostle Paul foretold of the successors to the Bishops of Ephesus that of themselues should men arise speaking perâ—erse Acts. 20. 30. things to draw Disciples after them hath too long beene verified of the successors in place to those first holy Bishops of Rome And were that true which you say that none of the predecessors to Gregorie the first were euer noted by any to haue degenerated in any one article of faith froÌ„ the religion of their forefathers the Apostles which is not vnknoweÌ„ to your selues to be most false for Alfonsus de Castro doth frankly coÌ„fesse that of Liberius the Pope it is manifest he was an Arriav that Anastasious did fauor the Nestorians Aduers heres lib. cap. 4. he that hath read histories doubteth not yeâ— if the successors of Gregorie haue bin iustly detected some for Atheists some Coniurers Necromancers some for Impoysoners some for villanous cruelty vpon the bodies of the quicke dead some notorious for bastardy besides other odious sins generally bribers Symonists Epicures more like to Sardanapalus or Heliogabolus then Peter or Paul must their succession in place to them to whom all other things they are most vnlike carie the Church of God on their sides your owne silence passing by the mention of all the successors to Gregorie the first by the space of a thousand yeares implies a confession that of those there are some at least degenerate from the religion of their forefathers and the Apostles which if with any face you could denie you would haue saide as much in them praise with lesse truth as you haue done of the former but vntruely But I suppose you cannot be ignorant that your owne Doctor Genebrarde hath Chron. lib. 4. verse 10. marked about a fiftie Popes for the space almost of 150 yeares from Iohn the 8. to Leo. 9. as reuolters wholy from the vertue of their ancestors and saith they were Apostatici apostatici potius quam apostolici Apostaticall rather then Apostolicall yea he calleth them monstrous which also Platina witnesseth with a witnesse of three speciall ones among the 50. Benedict 9. Siluester 3. and Gregorie 6. whom he calleth tria teterrima monstra three most hideous monsters what might be said of Iohn the 8. otherwise Pope Ioan Iohn the 12. two other of the 50. of Gregorie 7. Alexander 3. Bâ—niface 8. Iohn 23. To shew how vnlike they were to the Martyrs their Predecessors in place you cannot be ignorant and therefore you did warily to make no noise of these and the like least their very names might staine their succession and repeale that glory which you thought to get by the fame of Gregorie your Kalendar Saint touching whom whether he coyned any new religion or not or whether hee kept that which by continuall succession descended from Saint Peter how should we more certainly know then by enquiring into that religion which Saint Peter and Saint Paul taught and that not following vncertaine tradition which hath proued the Author of deceiuable fables but the certaine 2 Pet. 1. 1â— 19. line of holy scripture which leades vs to Christ himselfe who onely knew the minde of his father and hath in his written word reuealed it to his Church For as Ciprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat Ad Pompei contr epist Steph error humanus If we returne to the head and beginning of diuine tradition that is the doctrine which God himselfe deliuered humane error is put downe which that auncient Father by an excellent similitude setteth out thus Si canalis quae c. If the conduit pipe which before did runne in aboundance do suddenlie fatle do not men vse to goe to the fountaine there to know the reason why it faileth c. Quod nunc facere opportot Dei sacerdotes c. which saith he the Priests of God keeping Gods commandements must now do that if the truth haue wauered or failed in auie thing we maie returne to the originall of our Lord and to the tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles that thence maie arise the reason of our doing from whence the order originall did first spring Which way to trie the truth so long as you do so diligently shun and take such paines to bring all religion to the touch of mans vncertaine authority what do you else but bewray a fearefull and guiltie conscience that dare not stand to the euidence of Gods word but in a suite of life and death saluation and damnation do willingly suffer the true Charters of diuine record to be lost or at least raked vp in the dust and bring in old men that can say nothing but by heare-say nay rather yong men now to tell what they haue heard off sometime said by old men vppon their onely bare heare-say So might the Iewes haue taken the law from the Scribes and Pharisees mouthes and haue learned to loue their friends hate their enemies with Matth. 6. 43. 2 Kings 22. 8. other Pharisaicall lessons and let the law of Moses lie in the dust as it had done
seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
himselfe the mercie of God forgiuing his sinnes and haue his conscience in regard of those sinnes still troubled It is therefore vntrue and sheweth want of faith that you say you thinke all the sinnes that come to minde should trouble a Christian mans conscience And yet it agreeth well with your Popish spirit which is the Spirit of bondage and not of adoption of feare and not of promise We say indeed that death is the Rom. 8. 15. 6 23. wages of all sin and therefore all sinne is mortall and damnable but we say that no sinne shall be laide to the charge of Gods Rom. 8. 33. 34. chosen whom none shall condemne because God himselfe iustifieth them Christ died and rose againe for them Secondly you obiect that the same scripture which commandeth the confession of some sinnes commandeth as well the confession of all It is very true that the scripture commandeth to confesse all sinnes but to God Of confession to men there is no other commandement but generall Confesse your sinnes one to another and pray one for another Which Iames 5. 16. giues as much authority to euery brother as to a Priest to heare confessions For of confession in the eare of a Priest you can shew no tittle in the scripture Howbeit as by the aduise and counsell of holy Scripture Christians are taught to ease their oppressed consciences into the bosoms of their faithfull brethren to the end they may be partakers of their comfort and prayers so we thinke it also a godly course and a ready meane to find comfort if the sheepe of the flocke do open their woundes to their pastor who hath wisdome and faithfulnes to powre in wine and oile that is to minister vnto them the word of admonition and consolation and this is the meaning of our Communion booke but what is this to Popish Eare shrift Yea but the booke prescribeth also how after confession the Priest must absolue him and the maner of words You shoulde haue dealt faithfully if you had set downe the whole truth Our booke appointeth the Priest first to pray vnto our Lord Iesus Christ that he would grant vnto the sicke person truely repenting and beleeuing in him forgiuenes of all his sinnes as acknowledging it to be the onely right of the Lord Iesus Christ to forgiue sins Secondly presupposing the sicke man truely to repent and to beleeue in Christ it appointeth the Priest by the authority of our Lord Iesus Christ who hath left power to his Church to absolue repentant sinners which power is theÌ„ executed by the Priest to absolue the sicke from all sinnes To absolue I say not to forgiue For Christ onely forgiueth as our booke there vnderstandeth forgiuenesse and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and is interpreted by the Prophet Dauid Psalme 32. 1. 2. By couering and not imputing sinnes The Church by her ministers absolueth that is declareth to the repentant and beleeuing by authority of Christs promise Sent. lib. 4. Dist 18. Nec ideo seq that their sinnes are forgiuen So saith Peter Lombard This truelie we maie saie and thinke that onelie God remitteth and reteineth sinnes and yet hath giuen power to his church to binde and loose but he bindeth and looseth after one sort and the church after another For he bindeth by himselfe onelie so hee forgiueth sinne because he both clenseth the soule from the inwarde blot and looseth it from the debt of eternall death But he hath not granted so much to the Priests to whom he hath onelie giuen power to bind and loose that is to shew that â—en are either bound or loosed And Bonauenture in his disputes vpon it expounding the words of Ambrose Sacerdos officium exhibet â—ed nullius potestatis iura exercet That is the Priest executeth his office but exerciseth not the right of anie power writeth thus For Ambrose meanes to saie that sinnes are said to be remitted of the Priest not in manner of a doer but in manner of a minister Against both Ambrose Non per modum efficientis sed per modum ministrantis Conâ—â—l â—rid Sess 4. cap. 6. can 9. and your Maister of the sentences your Tridentine councell crieth Anathema giuing to the Priest in their sacramentall absolution not a bare ministrie to pronounce and declare but a iudiciall act whereby the sentence is pronounced by him as by the Iudge So making the comfort of him that is absolued to depend not onely vpon Christs promise but vpon the person of the Priest absoluing which is farre from the doctrine or meaning of our Church either in the Communion booke or any where else And therefore what affinity soeuer bee betweene your Latine words and our English there is no affinity betweene that comfortable absolution which our booke appoineth Gods minister in the name of Christ to publish to the humble and repentant sinner and your Popish and Pharisaical absolution Lastly this order of confession and absolution as they are set downe in the communion booke is indeede some part of the practise of our relition but no principle of our religion and therefore you do much abuse your Clients when you make them beleeue that this and other orders are any of the principles of our religion PAPIST Thirdly the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme why then is it not likewise lawfull in other things What word of The signe of the Crosse Images God willeth the one and forbiddeth the other and if the signe of the Crosse be good why not also other images especially of Christ crucified That teâ—t which they can bring to iustific the one vvill also serue for the other and that which they shall alleage to ouerthrovv the image of the Crucifixe will giue small rest to the signe of the Crosse PROTESTANT It is false that you say that the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme That signe by the ordinance of the booke hath nothing to do in Baptisme It is onely made a signe of confession after Baptisme which vse our Church hauing receiued as continued from antiquitie in that manner without interruption considering how notably it serued the faithfull in old times to manifest their confession of Christ crucified thought meete still to retaine But as for reuiuing any other vse of it after so long disuse our Church thought it might rather tend to superstition then to edification the rather because your Popish confidence in such bodily exercises had greatly corrupted the primitiue simplicitie of the vulgar vse thereof among the first Christians There is no word of God that willeth the vse of it nor anie word of God that I know that forbiddeth the bare vse of it It grew out of a desire the faithfull had to testifie before the enemies of Christ their faith in Christ crucified In the vse thereof it seemeth they felt further comfort not hauing confidence in the
signe but in Christ whom they confessed by that signe Neither was any of them euer heard to say Aue cruxspes vnie◠Hatle ô crosse our onely hope As touching the match of equalitie that you make betweene the signe of the Crosse and the Crucifixe you may well thinke that the ancient church being so long without the image of the crucifixe namely aboue 600. yeares and yet so early vsing Sexta Synod Can 82. the signe of the Crosse did acknowledge no small difference betweene the one and the other A transient signe to signifie in gesture that which the word signifieth in speech and that onely for meanes of confession differeth much from an image made to represent the Sonne of God whose Godhead no colours nor proportion can expresse whose Manhood is not the whole of his person whose nature person and suffering is sufficiently yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and heare neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifixe which is to be knowne beleeued remembred of Christ and his sufferings according to the description of his word To leaue the Scriptures follow a crucifixe is to go from the Sunne in the firmament to the signe of the sunne painted in a table To adde to the word the helpe of the crucifix is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word The signe of the Crosse had no such vse in the beginning neither hath now with vs and therefore differeth largely from the signe of the crucifixe But it is worth the marking how barely you bring into comparison first the vse of the signe of the Crosse among vs and the vse thereof in poperie Do we teach to trust in that signe Do we pray to it do we worship it do we blesse with it do we fence arme our selues with it these are your Idolatries which you slily passe ouer as if there were a like vse of the signe of the Crosse with vs and with you Papists Secondly the signe of the Crosse and the image of the crucifixe as if you did only make the image of the crucifixe historically and not to worship it When we commit idolatrie with the signe of the Crosse then compare our vse thereof with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe Lastly remember heere also that which I spake of the former The signe of the Crosse is only an indifferent externall rite among vs It is neither principle nor second nor third nor fourth nor any point of our Religion PAPIST Fourthly in Baptisme they vse Godfathers and abrenuntiation Why not also other ceremonies namely holy Oile and Exorcisme Holy oyle Exorcisme Reade the Scriptures and as little there is for the first as the last Aske the auncient Fathers and as much is found for the last as for the first PROTESTANT In the administration of the holy Sacraments the neerer we come to the institution of Christ the more chast and incorrupt we esteeme the administration of them to be and therefore haue taken that libertie which the Church of God euer vsed no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone then we do euidently see to serue for edification By which rule no doubt sundrie ceremonies of auncient time vsed afterward grew out of vse as namely in Baptisme the tasting of milke and honie with certaine other ceremonies either for come linesse or instruction taken vp in the primitiue Church which afterwards were layd downe againe as the times and growth of the Church fawe most conuenient As touching Godfathers and abrenuntiation for that the one hath a good vse as well to prouide that only the children of beleeuing parents be brought to Baptisme as also to commit the care of the infants education to men for godlinesse and sound faith approued and the other expresseth the couenant on the behalfe of the infant baptized wherewith he standeth charged the mention whereof serueth as well to call to the mindes of others before baptized what they owe to God by the couenant betweene God and them sealed in baptisme as also to enter the obligation of the infants faith and obedience whereunto as soone as his yeares admit he must know himselfe to be bound by the law of his baptisme Therfore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification and that the end of Baptisme may be attained hath vpon good reason continued these two When you shall be able to shew vnto vs as serious profitable vse of your Exorcisme and Oyle then may we enter into consulation whether in so lawfull libertie to alter or refuse vnnecessarie ccremonies it were not much better to reason you haue so superstitiously profaned them besides the slender vse to leaue them onely to you then after so long a farewell to giue them new entertainement specially Scripture saying nothing for them and the auncient Fathers although they testifie of the vse of these as also some others by you neglected yet in matter of ceremonie allow freedome to euery Church in euery time These also are no principles of our Religion PAPIST Fiftly the booke alloweth the vse of the Surplice in their Seruice and Sacramonts vvhy then may not Copes Vestiments and Copes Vestiments such like be admitted also For no more can they shew for the one then vve for the other PROTESTANT Multitude of needlesse ceremonies is alwayes a burthen and therefore a bondage both in the yoke of obseruation and also in the taile of superstition whereunto through blindnesse and carnall deuotion men commonly fall And therefore our church though it retaine the Surplice as most remote both in the originall and perpetuall vse from your superstition and that onely for comelinesse without putting any religion in it yet both is and ought to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatricall or stage-like vestiments which would rather disguise then a dorne the Church of Christ And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture which albeit of loue and for peace it teacheth to suffer some things not necessary yet streightly warneth the church not to be intaugled againe in the yoke of boudage And so there is Scripture against many and those Gal. 5. 1. before refused more then against one and that neuer out of vse And heere againe I may not forget still to put you in mind that far it is from our church to esteeme the surplice or any vse thereof as a principle or any part of our religion PAPIST Sixtly in the Collect vpon Michaelmas day they confesse that the Angels defend and protect our life how then can they denie Praying to Saints that they know our necessities and praiers and so no reason can they alleage why we may not pray to them as well as we do to our mortall brethren PROTESTANT Protect is not in the Collect but only succour and defend For we yeeld only a ministerie to
the Angels we hold them neither for patrons nor protectors Which honor we giue onely to the Sonne of God the head of Angels Neither doubt we but as farre as their ministerie extendeth toward vs so far they know our necessities and prayers But infinit knowledge which is proper to the Deity we ascribe not vnto them Neither is such limited knowledge in them any sufficient ground to leade vs to pray vnto them The Angel that was sent to informe Iohn the Euangelist in the visions reuealed notwithstanding the wonderfull counsell of God whereof he was then a minister an interpreter yet would not suffer Iohn to fall downe to him which is much lesse Apoc. 19. 10. then to pray to him For to whom we pray to him very religiously and lawfully we may fall downe Many reuelations of things secret remote were granted to the Prophets in old time and namely to Elisaeus yet read we not that any man did euer pray to them though some in reuerence to their ministerie the power of God administred by them did fall downe to them And yet how finely or rather grosly you can assume without proofe or shew of proofe that we may pray to our mortall brethren haue you either precept or example for it in all the Scripture Indeed we request and receiue one from another the helpe of our mutuall prayers call you this praying to our mortall brethren thus can you proue one paradoxe by another These be your forcible and plaine reasons for your falsly named Catholike faith PAPIST Seuenthly in the Geneua Psalmes annexed to the Communion Limbus Patrum booke and vsually sung in their churches they confesse that Christs soule descended to the Fathers that were in Limbo For this article of the Creed He descended into hel they turne into Meetor after this manner His soule did after this discend Into the lower parts To them that long in darknesse were the true light of their harts PROTESTANT First you corrupt the Meeter changing for your purpose Spirit into Soule The meeter hath Spirit not Soule Secondly what the translator meant by Spirit and by the lower parts it is not easie to define vnlesse himselfe had left some glosse vpon his owne meeter and considering that the lawe of meeter restrained him from libertie of plaine speech it were an iniury to him to wrest his words coÌ„trary to his meaning That by lower parts he meant your Limbus you haue nothing to perswade you but your owne preiudice that caries you so to vnderstand it It may be that by Spirit hee meant the power of his eternall Spirit which in his suffering and after his suffering wrought both in heauen vpon earth and vnder the earth euen vpon the bodies of the dead who were in the lower parts and lay in darknes as generally the dead do Hilarie speaketh to like effect Monetur terra capax enim mortus huius esse non poterat c. The earth Hilar. in Matth. Can. 33. Potestas aeternae virtutis was moued for it could not conteine him that was dead The rocks were clouen for the piercing word of God and the power of his eternall vertue had broken into all places how strong and well fenced soeuer And the graues were opened for the prisons of death were vnlocked And many bodies of the Saints that slept arose for he inlightning the darknes and shining into the obscuritie of the lower places for the preseÌ„t raising of the saints asleep took away the spoiles of death it selfe What is the power of his eternall vertue but his eternal spirit Whereby he brake into the holds of death the darknesse of death the obscurity of the lower parts caried away the spoiles of death did inlighten with the brightnes of his power the whole region of darknes to the coÌ„fort of all that waited for his coÌ„ming All which Hilarie saieth were done not by his soule but that nature which he calleth PenetraÌ„s Dei vertuÌ„ potestas aeternae vertutis that is his Deity And the scripture speaking of the faithful departed although the soule body by dissolution be in diuerse regions yet speaketh of the whole person together So saith the Apostle Peter of Dauid the patriake He is both dead and buried his sepulchre remaineth with vs. And the like in many Acts. 2. 29. other places wherfore the Power of Christ piercing to the dead was a coÌ„fort to all the faithfull departed If this were his meaning as by comparisoÌ„ of the former place of Hilarie we may very well iudge what seruice I pray you can this meeter do to your Limbus But whatsoeuer his mening were his priuate interpretation is no principle of our religioÌ„ neither can you be ignoraÌ„t that there be that hold some locall discent of Christ yet be far from holding your Limbus so might the author of that meeter likewise do Albeit we hold that article for a principle of our religion yet are not the sundry expositions thereof according as seuerall men haue conceiued so many principles of our religion you must therefore seeke further for principles to serue your turne PAPIST Lastly Martin Luther taught the Real preseuce maintained Real presence it against the Zwinglians as others of our Aduersaries caÌ„not denie and yet doth the Apologie of England penned by M. Iewel call him a most excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world How then can it be contrarie to the scripture for if it were so then surelie could he not be a man sent of God for the matter of the Sacrament is no small point but such as themselues will say that a wrong beliefe thereof bringeth damnation PROTESTANT Did Martin Luther teach Popish Reall prefence did he teach Transubstantiation of the bread into the body of Christ Did he teach carnall eating of Christs flesh In the Act. 10. Augustane confessioÌ„ wherein he was a chiefe part thus they coÌ„fesse Of the supper of the Lord they teach that the body bloud of Christ are truely present distributed to them that eate in the Lords supper We say the same in the Articles agreed vpon at Marpurg Octob. 3. 1529. Whereunto Martin Luther first subscribed we all beleeue and thinke that the Sacrament of the Altar is the Sacrament of the true Histor August Confess Spiritual eating body and bloud of Iesus Christ that the spirituall eating of this body bloud is chiefly necessary for euery ChristiaÌ„ man We say the same In certaine articles setting the state of the controuersie betweene Luther and Pâ—â—cer and the rest of the Cinglians as they are called Although we say that the bodie Artic. 2. In aliqua mole of Christ is really present yet Luther sayth not that it is present locally to wit in any bignes circumscriptiuely but after that maner whereby Christs person or whole Christ is present to his whole Church and to all creatures Luther saith not that Christs