Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	new_a	old_a	testament_n	3,965	5	8.0680	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41215	Pian piano, or, Intercourse between H. Ferne, Dr. in divinity and J. Harrington, Esq. upon occasion of the doctors censure of the Common-wealth of Oceana.	Ferne, H. (Henry), 1602-1662.	1656 (1656)	Wing F797; ESTC R5270	19,316	78

PIAN PIANO OR INTERCOURSE BETWEEN H. FERNE Dr. in Divinity AND J. HARRINGTON Esq. Upon occasion of the Doctors Censure of the COMMON-WEALTH OF OCEANA ●entit terra Deos mutataque syder a pondus Quaesivêre suum Petron Sal. LONDON Printed for Nath. Brook at the Angel in Cornhil 1656. EPISTLE To the READER Reader I Seldom talk with him that does not confute me nor ever read that which did not confirm me wherefore if I be glad to take a man in black and white you will not blame me or do not know that I have had an University about my eares without any possibility left unto me whereby to defend my selfe but this in which you may imagine me speaking unto the Chaire INTERCOVRSE Between H. FERNE Dr in Divinity and JAMES HARRINGTON Esq upon occasion of the Doctors censure of the Commonwealth of Oceana WHen I had published my Oceana one of my sisters making good provision of Copies presented of them unto her friends as well to shew her respect to them as to know their judgements of it Among the rest being acquainted with Doctor Ferne she sent him one and soon after received this answer Madam I Received a Booke directed to me from your Ladiship with intimation I should expresse my sense of it I acknowledge Madam the favour you have done me in sending it but the return you expect hath its difficulties the Book being now past the Press and of such an argument had I seen it before it was publique I should have said it was not likely to please c. but that is nothing to me your desire I suppose is to know how I like it I conceive your Ladiship is not so far a stranger either to the Booke which you sent or to me whome you are pleased thus to owne but that you take me to be of a different judgement from the Author in this his forme whether concerning State or Church And it may be your Ladiship did therefore call me to speak as one that would be lesse partial Give me leave then Madam in plain English to say that albeit the Author hath shewn good sufficiency of parts and taken much pains in order to his design yet I conceive First that he is not a little mistaken in thinking the Israel-Common-wealth or Government under Moses so appliable unto his purpose as he would make it Next that when the question 'twixt his form and the Monarchical is disputed over and over again reason and experience will still plead for the latter Nor can the ballance he pretends stand so steady in his form as in a well tempered Monarchie by reason the temptations of advancing are more like to sway with many in a Common Weal then with one c. in the height of Dignity Next When I consider such a change by this Modell from what was ever in c. And that the Agrarian with some other levelling Orders are the laws of it I should think the nature of men was first to be new model'd before they would be capable of this Lastly what is said in relation to the Church or Religion in the point of Government Ordination Excommunication had better beseemed Leviathan and is below the parts of this Gentleman to retain and sit down with those little things and poor mistakes which the ignorance or wilfulnesse of many in these days hath broached in way of quarrel against the Church of England And lamentable it is to see so many especially Gentlemen of good parts so opinionate so boldly medling in matters of Religion as if they had forgot or did not understand their Article of the Catholique Church Madam You see I have been plain in speaking my sense and hope you will think me therefore more fit to do you reall service when you shall have occasion to command Madam Your humble Servant Nov. 4th. 56. THe Doctor's letter though it be scandalous for to charg a writer of little things poor mistakes sitting down by ignorance or wilfulnesse without proof is no better was yet but private and therefore I may be asked why I would make it publique whereunto I answer That what a Divine will have to be true is no lesse publique then if it were printed but more for he will Preach it and Preaching communicates unto more then can read Also his present Doctrines are exceeding dangerous For in government that is cast upon Parliaments or popular elections as ours hath ever been and is to take wise men and understanding and known among their Tribes to be Rulers over them hath ever except where the people were not free in their elections been and must ever be the certain and infallible consequence Now wise men and understanding and known among their Tribes must needs be at least for the greater part of that rank which we now call the Aristocracy or Gentlemen Whence the Senate in every well ordered Commonwealth hath consisted of the Aristocracy or Gentry And that the Senate ever had the supreme Authority as well in matters of Religion as State is not only clear in all other popular Governments but in the Old Testament which also is confirmed by our Saviour in the New Mat. 23. 2. The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses's seat and therefore whatsoever they bid you observe both He and His Apostles observed the national Religion observe and do for the liberty of conscience or prophetick right in the Common-wealth of Israel as in others was such as by which Christianity notwithstanding the national Religion might grow But do not saith he after their works for they say and do not In their inquiry after John Joh. 1. they seem to imply or say that if he were that Prophet there was nothing in the Law why he might not introduce his Baptism and therefore why he might not gather Churches or instruct the people in his way Neverthelesse when they come to doing they kill the Prophets and stone them This indeed Christ blameth being the abuse of their power But whereas the supreme Authority of the Senate whether in matters of Religion or State is confirmed by all divine and humane prudence and the Senate is the more peculiar Province of the Gentry The Doctor saith that Lamentable it is to see so many not only men of such parts or quality as the people in their elections are not likely to look upon but especially Gentlemen of good parts then which the people upon like occasions have no other refuge so opinionate so boldly medling in matters of Religion as if they had forgot or did not understand their Article of the Catholique Church Now where ever the Clergy have gained this point namely that they are the Catholique Church or that it is unlawful for Gentlemen either in their private capacity to discourse or in their publique to propose as well in the matter of Church as State Government neither government nor Religion have fayled to degenerate into meere Priest-craft This especially was the reason why I wrote

the Civil Magistrate they must have done ill had they known or conceived that the Church in the purest times had waved the Civil Magistracy Paul arriving at Athens converts Dionysius one of the Senators and some others unto the Christian faith Suppose he had converted the whole S●●ate and the People what sober Man can imagine that he would have disputed with the Congregation the sense of their former Name Ecclesia or the right of electing their new Elders by their old Chirotonia or suffrage by holding up of hands But he converted but a few wherefore as he had no aid so he had no hinderance from the Magistrate This then was a gather'd Church I think or what was it If the Prophets in Israel went up and down preaching unto the people by whom they were followed and if some of these that were thus followed were true and more of them false the people that followed them could not be all of the same perswasion though it is like that no man would follow such an one as he was not perswaded was true But the people choosing at their own discretion whom they would follow how could these Congregations be lesse gathered than these when the people were divided into three sects Pharisees Saduces and Esscans which could be no other Nor doth the Sanhedrim though they had the Government of the National Religion sending unto John the Baptist John 11. 25. to know who he was and why he baptized refuse him the like Prophetick right used by him first and afterwards by our Saviour and the Apostles without the Authority of the Sanhedrim Nor doth Paul blame the Congregations of Apollos and Cephas 1 Cor. 1. in that they were gathered but in that they put too much upon them that gathered them How then doth it appear that my Inference for gathered Congregations now is a little thing or poor mistake below a Gentleman of parts when I say no more than that gathered Congregations were in use both before and after Christ notwithstanding the National Religion that was then settled and therefore gathered Congregations for any thing in the Old or New Testament that I can find to the contrary might be now though a National Religion were settled And if this be not true the Testimony which you bear in your present practice is against your self for what else are your Congregations now that will use none other then the Common-prayer but gathered To conclude it should seem by you that if the National Religion were so settled that the meddling with holy things by any other than a Divine might be resolv'd as boldly and to use a fine word opinionately done as if it were against an Article of our Creed you would be pleased But the National Religion and the Liberty of Conscience so ordered in Oceana that neither the Interest of the Learned nor the Ignorance of the unlearned can corrupt Religion in which case though there might yet there is no probability that there would be any gathered Congregations this being the peculiar Remedy for that which you hold a disease you are displeased for thus you Conclude Sir YOu see I have used freedome again it is like you will think too much but I desire you would allow me the priviledge of the Old saying suo quisque sensu abundet and not trouble your self with interrogating me from whom you can draw fo little satisfaction I never made it my study to model or shape out Forms of Government but to yield Obedience to every lawful Command proceeding from Authority how perfect or otherwise the form was In a word Sir I honour your parts wish them imployed as may be most for the service of God and his Church and doe promise my selfe in all friendly and Christian Offices Nov. 26. 56. Sir Your humble servant H. Ferne To which I say that I Have not heard a Divine quote Scripture Quisque suo sensu abundet as an Old saying but you are not contented to doe so onely but to use it accordingly for whereas Rom. 14. 15. it is indulged by the Apostle as to indifferent things this was never intended to be an Argument that the Seventy Elders were erected upon the advice of Jethro that Moses instituted a Monarchy that Gideon was King of Israel or indeed for any thing that you have said And therefore however you cal it Interrogatory it is civil enough in such a case to desire better reason but do not fear that I should trouble you any more in this kind nor had I at all if whereas you confess in the close that you have not studied these things you had but said so much in the beginning for there had been an end This study indeed as I have shewd elsewhere is peculiar unto Gentlemen but if it be of your goodnesse that you study not to shape such work must it ever be the study of your Tribe to mishape it Is it in such less impiety to have ruin'd a Kingdome then in any other to shew the true Principles of a Commonwealth Or whereas the Nature of the Politicks or such Civil Power witnesse the Sanhedrim of Israel as commeth neerest unto Gods own pattern regards as well Religion as Government and is receptible of Gentlemen doth it follow that I have not laid out the best of my parts in my Vocation to the service of God and his Church because you in your pretended zeal have chosen to insinuate the contrary by a prayer But he unto whom you have addressed your self knoweth the secrets of all hearts To him therefore I appeal whether I have not sought him in a work of Universal Charity and whether one end of this present writing be not least you making use of your great Authority thus to prejudice such a work should hurt them most whom you love best It being apparent unto any Man that can see and understand the ballance of Government with the irrisistible consequence of the same that by such time as the vanity of mens waies shall have tired them a little more it will be found that God in his infinite goodnesse and mercy hath made that onely possible for us which is best for us all most for the good of manking and his own glory And so notwithstanding the heat of our dispute which so far as it hath not resisted nor exceeded truth cannot have been very sinful or uncharitable I do oblige my self in all the devoirs of London Jan. 3. 56. Sir Your affectionate friend and humble servant James Harrington FINIS M. Disc. B. 3. Ch. 24. Acts