those Ceremonies To bée briefe the first Catholique church did acknowledge none to bée her vniuersall head but Christ Iâ—sus onely and shée submitted her selfe to bee gouerned in matters of faith by his spirite which spirite did in déede gouerne hir in the vnderstanding of the scriptures which are the rule of Christian Religion And in ciuill gouernement shee submitted herselfe to Princes and other Potentats acknowledging that God hath giuen vnto them the power of the sword and hath made them his reuengers vpon earth coÌ„maunding them to vse that power in defending innocents and in punishing of such as doo transgresse his lawes But your Romish Catholique church must haue a Pope to bee hir vniuersall head vnder the name of Christes vicar generall and hee must haue absolute power vpon earth diriued from the Apostle Peter that neuer tooke vpon him selfe any such power but willed all Christians to submit themselues to all estates of men euen for the Lord Iesus sake Yea hee willed them to honour all men to loue brotherly fellowship to feare God and to honour the king 1. Peter 2. 1. Peter 2. But your Pope must haue power ouer all men euen ouer Princes to whom Peter submitted him selfe and willed al christians to doo the like Yea hée must haue power to depose all such Princes as will not bow to him and bee his Executioners in executing the paines of death vpon all such as it pleaseth him to take for Heretikes Such Princes dooth your Pope take vpon him to depose to depriue them of all princely dignitie to set vp in their place such as will submit them selues vnto him become his sworne vassalles And that he may the more easily bring these things to passe hée absolueth all the subiects of such Princes from their dutifull oth of obedience which they haue dutifully taken to those their leage and naturall Princes Yea as late and daily practises doo teach they spare not to promise the kingdome of God to such subiects as will most vndutifully most vnnaturally murder not onely their naturall countrimen but also their naturall Princes By these differences it apreareth how great the difference is betwixt the first Romish church which was in déede Catholique and yours which you call catholique but is in déede Cacolike But now you conclude that if the learned Protestant can prooue that the priuate conuenticles congregations of the Protestants were the first bringers foorth of the sacred Bible and written woord of God the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages from all Iewes Gentiles Heretikes and schismatiks then you wil reuolt and recant as you haue saide before To this I say on the behalfe of the learned Protestant that neither the Catholique church nor any other congregations haue bin the first bringers foorth of the sacred Bible c. For those bookes which are called the Bible were brought foorth and written before our sauiour Christ sayd thus to the Iewes Scrutamini scripturas c. Ioh. 5. Ioh. 5. Serch the scriptures c. And as for the preseruing and defending of them from Iewes Gentiles c. I say that it hath not bin the worke of man but of God him selfe who is the only Author of the same Apocal. 6. In the sixt chapter of saint Iohns Reuelations it is written that when the third seale of that booke which was sealed with seuen seales was opened there was a voyce which came from the midst of the foure beasts which saide to him that sate vpon the blacke horse had a balaunce in his hand Wine and oyle see thou doo not hurt In the iudgment of all learned interpreters wine and oyle doo in that place signifie the scriptures which God would not suffer to bee hurt by any mans interpretation no not in the time of most déepe Ignorance The Iewes could neuer corrupt the text of the Canonicall scriptures although they lacked no good will to haue corrupted them Neither could your Popish catholiques at any time corrupt those scripcures for God hath reserued a Remnant of the Iewes with whom those scriptures are and alwaies haue bin had in such estimation and reuerence that they would neuer leaue them to any that would corrupt them and this hath God wrought by them vsing them as his instruments therein In like manner the Grecians haue bin his instruments in kéeping the Gréeke text both of the olde and newe testament from all manner of Corruption in all partes thereof that doo concerne any parte of the substance of our Religion so that though your Popish Catholiques would as no doubt they are willing enough yet they can not corrupt either the Hebrew or Gréeke text Thus if you will you may sée maister Offerer that God alone by such meanes as hée hath dooth and will vse hath bin the bringer foorth of the sacred Bible and other holy scriptures for the holy men of God did speake as the holy spirite of God did mooue them to speake 2. Pet. 1. 2. Peter 1. And it is hée that hath vsed his good meanes both in discerning of the holy writings from the prophane and also in preseruing and defending of them from all maner corruption Wherefore if you minde to bée as good as your woord you must reuolt and recant The third Offer The Offerer Third Shew mee good reason why yee Protestants doo belieue our Catholique Church enforming and telling you this to bee the woord of God written the true Bible and sacred scriptures and doo refuse to credit hir in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture shee being vndoubtedly led with the spirite of God in them both For if the Catholique Church had the spirit of God in discerning and iudging the true Scriptures of God from the rest not Scriptures why should not wee belieue that same Catholique church gouerned and led by the same spyrite in giuing the true sense meaning and vnderstanding of the Scriptures When yee shal be able to render a sufficient reason of the one and not of the other I shall then yeelde and recant and not before Crowley There is no reason why wée should shewe you good reason why wée doo that thing which none of vs either haue done doo or minde to doo In beliuing that the Bible and scriptures that wee haue is the true Bible and scripture wée doo as the people of Sichar did Iohn the fourth chapter They said to the woman that told them of Iesus Iam non propter tuam orationem credimus c. Iohn 4. Now doo wée belieue not bicause of the tale that thou hast told vs for wee our selues haue heard and doo know that this is very Christ the sauiour of the world Euen so wee confesse that when wee were amongst you wée heard you talke of a Bible scriptures wée were desirous to sée them but you kept them from vs by all the meanes that you coulde deuise but at the
fratres per nomen domini nostri Jesu Christi vt idipsum dicatis omnes nō sint in vobis schismata sitis autem perfecti in eodem sensu in eadem sententia 1. Cor 1. I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that you say all one thinge and that there bee no schisme amongst you but be perfect in one minde and one meaning Nowe if the learned Protestant shal be able to prooue that where as about the time of threescore yeeres and aboue we were all not onely in this realme but vniuersally in al other realmes professing Christ of one church of one fayth and religion and of one vnitie therein if hee shal be able to prooue that this late Schisme whereby wee are so deuided and dispersed that some are become Lutherans some Zuinglians some Caluinists some Puritans and Annabaptists dyd proceede from vs and from the common knowen Catholique Church of Christ and not wholy from theyr priuate Church and congregations and of the deceitfull and false doctrine by them preached and taught I shall then stay no longer but yeelde and recant and not before Crowley They that be the bringers of Schismes and diuisions into the Church of Christ c may rightly be said to be false Prophettes Heretiques and Schismatiques And th'apostle Paule dooth very well and loouingly exhorte and beséech vs euen in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ to be all of one minde and that there be no Schismes amongst vs c. But now the learned Protestant must prooue that the late Schisme whereby the people of all Christian realmes are diuided into Lutherans Zuinglians Caluinistes Puritans and Anabaptists did procéede from the common knowen Catholique Church of Christ and not wholy from the Protestants congregations and from their deceitfull doctrine otherwise there is no hope that euer this Offerer will recant and yéelde Well let vs sée what may be said to this offer First as I doo vnderstand the wordes of this Offerer hee affirmeth that till it was within the space of thréescore and some odde yéeres last past there had béene no Schisme brought into the Church of Christ so that before that tyme al were of one Church of one fayth and religion and of one vnitie therein And thus he hath discharged all those olde Heretiques that troubled the Church of Christ in the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel amongst the nations from thense forth till it was within thréescore odde yéeres before the tyme wherein he made this offer None of them may bée taken for false Prophets Heretiques or Schismatiques if thys bée the meaning of this offerers wordes as I thynke it must néedes bée But how soeuer this offerer and his fellowes doo account of these men that then brought Schismes into the Church of Christ we Protestants doo déeme them to be false Prophets Heretiques and Schismatickes yea and members of antichrist and we doo by all meanes possible shunne theyr doctrine and teach all other Christians to shunne them also It may bée that this offerer meant not of any other false Prophets Heretiques or Schismatickes then such as haue troubled the Church of Christ within these thréescore and odde yéeres last past and therefore hee beginneth with Luther Zuinglius c. But if that were his meaning then I must tell him that he and his fellowes the antichristian catholiques are the false Prophets Heretiques and Schismatiques that haue troubled the Catholique Church of Christ all this while many hundrethes of yéeres before euen euer since the dayes of Phocas the Emperour and the dayes of Boniface the thyrd theyr first Apostatate Bishop of Roome As for Luther Zuinglius and Caluine they dyd but departe from the antichristian Schismaticall Church wherin then had béene fostered and ioyned themselues to the true catholique Church of Christ euen as the Apostle Paule leauing the Hipocriticall profession of a Pharisey wherin he had béene brought vp euen at the féete of Gamaliell the good Pharisey ioyned himselfe to the Church and religion of Christ which was not a forsaking of the lawe but a cleauing vnto him that is the perfection of the Lawe Luther Zuinglius and Caluine dyd not take vpon them to be authors of any new religions but they embraced and laboured to maintayne that olde religion that had béene planted by the Apostles and professed by theyr immediate successors And as they could they dyd endeuour to purge it of al such filth as you M. Offerer and your predissessors had begrimed it with If in this busines they dyd not so well in all poyntes as they wished yet theyr meaning béeing good they are to bée helde excused Though they dyd nowe and then buylde timber strawe and stubble yet so long as they did laye no new foundation but dyd set all theyr building vppon the rocke Christ which is the right foundation and the onely foundation for Christians to build vpon they shal be saued as S. Paule hath assured vs. 1 Cor 3. 1 Cor 3. We Protestant Catholiques doo estéeme of these men none otherwise then as of faithfull labourers in the Lords haruest and carefull followers of Christ Iesus If they did in any poynt goe astray as béeing men they might and vndoubtedly dyd our profession is not to followe them Their profession was to followe Christ and so is ours The learned Protestant therefore may conclude that not the knowē catholique Church of Christ but the knowen antichristian Church of Roome whereof this Offerer and his fellowes are members haue by theyr doctrine brought into the Church of Christ Schisme Diuision and seperation of one member from another and of the whole misticall body from the true heade Iesus Christ For you enforce all such as wyll enioy any outwarde peace in this lyfe to submit themselues to the state of the papasie as to theyr vniuersall heade here vpon earth directly contrarie to the commaundement of Christ Math 23. Math 23 Sée that you do not name any man your common father vpon earth for one is your father which is in heauen Neither be ye called masters for Christ only is your maister If we will enioy peace amōgst you we must learne to say thus Our most holy father the Popes holines is heade of the vniuersall Church of Christ And we must acknowledge that his colledge of Cardinalles and the Prelates that he calleth togeather in hys generall councelles binding them by an oath to maintaine the estate of your antichristian Church are our masters or teachers for suche masters our sauiour Christ spake of at that tyme and what so euer they shall teach that must wée beléeue although we doo knowe and sée that they doo teach directly contrarie to that which is taught by the holy ghost in the Scriptures The peace therefore the concorde and the vnitie that you doo maintaine is not in verity and trueth but in impietie and false religion By your Schisme wherein you are growen excéeding
of one church For the darknesse is no more contrary to the light neither falshoode to the truth nor the deuill to God then the doctrine of Swenkfield and of the Anabaptists is to the doctrine of Luther Caluin and Zuinglius But this is the drift of this Offerer To beare the world in hand that wée Protestants doo holde maintaine euery point of doctrine that is contrarie to or diffreth from that Antichristian doctrine which hée his fellowes doo call Catholike and that wée haue none other authors of our religion but these whom hee hath héere named such like Vndoubtedly hée is heerein very much disceiued For although wée doo for good cause like very well of the iudgment of some of these men that bee heere named yet wée haue not sworne to belieue all that they haue written neither yet anie one woorde that they haue written further then they haue by the scriptures made proofe of that which they haue affirmed in writing Wée are not Lutherans Zuinglians nor Caluinists but wée are Christians as in our opinion Luther Zuinglius and Caluin were They were of one minde with S. Austen that desired no credit further then hée prooued his assertions by scripture I pray you therefore good M. Offerer offer vs not such discurtisie as to cause the world to conceiue such an opinion of vs that wée holde and maintaine wée care not and knowe not what Wée thanke the Lord our God wée are not ignoraunt what wée doo and what Christians ought to belieue and wée are ready and able to render an account of the hope that is in vs. And our God hath made vs able to iudge of the spirites and to discerne the spirite of truth from the spirite of errour And by that gifte of our God wée are made able to sée that your spirite is the spirite of Antichrist and your religion Antichristian And that the religion that wée doo professe is Catholique and the same that was professed and practized euen in Rome for the space of 300. yeeres and more next after the ascention of our Sauiour Christ And where as you require the learned Protestant to prooue that these sectes being so diuers c. or any of them do giue saluation to theyr fellowes and that you ought to béeléeue them all or any one of them we leaue to your selfe to be discussed at your leasure For we knowe that no companie or societie of men hath any power to giue any saluation neither to others or to themselues that no man is bound to beléeue another farther then hée dooth knowe that the same hath and dooth speake and write the trueth I sée no cause therefore why you should not yéeld and recant although the learned Protestant neither can prooue nor will take vpon him to prooue the thing that you haue so impudently required him to prooue The sixteenth Offer Offerer Sixteenth When the Protestant shal be able to prooue that those persons which in theyr departure made frō the Catholique Church of Christ haue more desire to beare the name of Sectaries as of Lutherans Zuinglians Illerians Caluinistes Swenkfieldeans Anabaptistes thē the name of Christians or Catholiques are the true members of Christ his Church and not Heretickes and Schismatickes nor yet followers therein of theyr fathers the Arians whych tooke theyr names of Arrius the Maniches of Manes the Nestorians of Nestorius the Nouatians the Vigilians the Iouinians Pelagians Eutichians and others then I shal yeeld and recant and not before Crowley Let the Protestant make the lyke offer and so the one offer shall be a sufficient answer to the other When the Antichristian Catholique shal be able to prooue that suche persons as doo desire rather to be called Fraunciscans of Fraunces Dominicans of Dominicke Benedictines of Benedict Augustiniās of Augustine Barnardines of Barnard Brigettines of Briget and so foorth of all the seuerall orders of Friers Monkes Chanons and Nunnes rather then by the common name of Christians bee true members of Christes Catholique Church and not Sectaries Heretickes and Schismatickes nor yet followers of theyr Fathers the Arrians which tooke theyr name of Arius c. Then will the Protestant yéelde and recant and so become an Antichristian Catholique and not before A man might meruaile to sée the blindnes of this Offerrer that could not sée howe easily this balde offer of his might be turned backe vpon himselfe Yea there is much greater reason to mooue any man to thinke that the Monkes Friers and Chanons Nunnes and others of the Popish religious persons doo desire to be named after the first founders of their religions then that they which do fauour and followe the doctrine of Luther Caluine or any other doo desire to be called by the names of them whose doctrine they followe or fauour For were it not that such as doo mislike with the doctrine of Luther and the rest doo in dirision call the fauourers of that doctrine by the names of those chéefe teachers of the doctrine wée should not amongst thousands finde one that would giue any of those names to himselfe But the Popes religious persons doo for the most parte blot out of memorie the names that were giuen vnto them when they were baptised as Frier Iohn Frauncis Minime of Nigion in Fraunce was called Debnam by hys Progenie and kindred whereof he came and at his Baptisme the name Samuell was giuen vnto him I thinke it will be hard for this Offerer to prooue that this is not a flat renouncing of Christ and Christendome For in this new name not onely the progenie of his naturall parentes is renounced but that religion also that was professed when he was baptised and in that new profession that he hath made thereis no promise made of obedience to Christ or vowe to obserue Christian religion but to obay the Father Prior and all the superiours in that order and to obserue that rule of S. Frauncis order If this be not a flatte forsaking of Christ then vndoubtedly no man can forsake him And what may bée thought of you Antichristian Catholiques Doo not you forsake Christ where you chuse a man to bée his Vicar generall captiueing and submitting your seuerall meaninges to the iudgement of your Prelates and spiritual gouerners and of one chéefe heade and pastor amongest those Prelates and that in all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Well I would wish you to remember your selfe better and to consider from how good loouing and faithfull a shéepheard you are gone astray and by howe many waies hee hath and dooth still séeke to bringe you home againe to hys shéepfolde the right and true Catholique Church consider that you haue willingly wittingly and wilfully made your selfe captiue to the greatest enimy that your shéephearde Christ hath or can haue Make hast to returne your shéepeheard will with ioy receiue you Your sinne is great in forsaking such a shéepheard and yet not so great but it may be pardoned Repent and beléeue the
that body but only Christ Iesus alone Rom. 12. Rom. 12. and euen so doo wée Thus may you sée M. Offerer that wée are not departed from the Catholique church of Rome which was in the time of S. Iohn but from your schismaticall and Antichristian Ramaine church that did departe from that first Romaine church in the dayes of Phocas the Emperor Boniface the third your first Antichristian Pope And now the learned Protestant hauing sufficiently prooued that his sorte are not departed from the common knowne Catholique church neither from that faith and religion wherein they were baptized but doo still remaine in the profession of the same faith and religion that they did by baptisme first receiue you must needes by the drift of Argument and Reason graunt that this first signe and token of false Prophets Heretiques and Schismatikes was before spoken by the Apostle Iohn onely of you and of men of your sorte and not of the learned Protestant and of his companie For you are fallen from the fayth of the first Romaine Church in that you haue reposed trust in Creatures and doo repose trust in them still You doo call vpon them making prayers to them You make Images of them setting them vp in places of honor and you doo kneele before them yea you burne Wax and Incense before them c. You repose trust in your owne strength and persuade your selfe that you are able to fulfill the law of God and when you haue broken any parte thereof you persuade your selfe that you are able by penance that you suffer to satisfie to God for the breaking of his law c. Take to your selfe therefore this first signe and token of false Prophets Heretiques and Schismatikes wée will none of it It is not ours but youres and you shall haue it The second signe and token Offerer Second sure marke signe and token of false Prophets Heretiques and schismatikes is that they being thus departed from the Catholique church doo of them selues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith religion by preaching of a new doctrine to assemble and set vp a new church and congregation Of this signe and token and great presumption speaketh the Apostle Saint Paule Quomodo enim praedicabunt nisi mittantur Rom. 10. How shall men preach except they be sent And in his Epistle to the Hebrews hee saith Nec quisquam sibi sumit honorem nisi qui vocatur a Deo quemadmodum Aaron Let no man take vnto him selfe honor except he bee called of God like as Aaron was Certaine it is that Aaron was called vnto the Office and dignitie of a bishop ordinarily by Moses Exod. 4. and by externall and visible vnction Moses him selfe was ordinarily called and sent of God approoued by myracle as it appeereth in the fourth Chapter of Exodus And therefore the Apostle S. Paule nameth Aaron and not Moses to signifie that all extraordinarie vocations by myracies as Moses was are now ceased and wee must from henceforth bee ordinarily called by externall vnction as Aaron was When therefore the learned protestant shall be able to prooue their iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of men I shall then yeelde and recant and not before Crowley In the first Period or perfect sentence of this sure mark as this Offerer dooth terme it hee chargeth vs vniustly with three crimes Whereof the first is A departing from the Catholique church The second is the setting vp of a new faith and religion And the third is the assembling of a new church and cōgregation I haue in mine answere to the first signe sufficiently prooued that not wée Protestants but this Offerer his fellowes bee guilty in these thrée points For they are departed from the true Catholique church they haue set vp a new faith and religion and they haue assembled and set vp doo still labour to assemble and set vp a new church and congregation In the rest of this sure marke of his hée wresteth far out of tune two sentences that Saint Paule hath written the one to the Romaines and the other to the Hebrews To the Romaines S. Paule hath written thus in the 10. Rom. 20. Chap. Quomodo c. How shall men preach except they bée sent And to the Hebrews hee saith thus Cap. 5. Hebr 5 Nec quisquam c. Let no man take vnto him selfe honor except hée be called of God like as Aaron was By these two places our Offerer will prooue the wee protestants haue no lawfull ministers in our Church bicause our ministers be not ordinarily called by outward visible vnction as Aaron was so sent foorth to preach and minister as their smered shauen Priests bée But I hope the indifferent reader shall plainly sée how violently this man dooth racke these sayings of S. Paule to make them séeme to serue his purpose In the 10. Cap. of his Epistle to the Romans S. Paule maketh it plain vnto them that God doth in mercy embrace all men that belieuing his promise doo call vpon him and thus he saith Non enim est distinctio Iudaei Greci nam idem Dominus omnium diues in omnes qui inuocant illum c. There is no difference of Iew Gréeke for one is Lord of all rich towards all that doo cal vpon him For euery one whosoeuer shal call vpon the name of the Lord shal be saued how therefore shall they call vpon him in whom they haue not belieued Or how shall they giue credit to him whom they haue not heard And how shal they heare wtout a preacher Esay 52. And how shal they preach except they be sent as it is written How glorious are the féet of them that preach peace and that preach good things Chrysostome in his 18. Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Romaines Chrysost in homilia 18. in 10. cap. Ad Rom. and expounding these very woords of saint Paule saith thus Obserua vero supra inquit dixit propheta quod quisquis inuocauerit nomen domini salnus sit futurus Sed dicet forte quisquam quomodo poterūt inuocare eum in quem non crediderunt Deinde post hanc obiectionē sequitur ipsius interrogatio nimirum quare non crediderint Post haec alia obiectio poterit enim omnino dici quomodo credent cum non audierint Atqui audierunt inquit Deinde alia rursus obiectio Et quo modo potuissent audire sine praedicante Cuius iterum subiungitur solutio Atqui praedicarunt multi ad hoc missi scilicet vnde manifestum quod isti sint missi illi Tum recte prophetam inducit dicentem Quam speciosi pedes annuntiantium pacem annuntiantiū bona Vides quo modo a praedicationis modo ipsos praedicatores declaret Circuibant enim nihil dicentes aliud quam ineffabilia