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religion_n	new_a	old_a	testament_n	3,965	5	8.0680	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A12592	A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie.	Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them.	1588 (1588)	STC 22909; ESTC S117654	118,250	200

in M. Penryes treatise c. By R. SOME Doctour of Diuinitie ROM chap. 16. vers 17.18 I beseech you brethren marke them diligently which cause diuision and offences contrary to the doctrine which yee haue learned and auoy de them For they that are such serue not the Lord Iesus Christ but their owne bellies and with faire speach and flattering deceiue the hearts of the simple Imprinted at London by G.B. Deputie to Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie 1588. TO THE READER I Did publish a short Treatise in May last It hath pleased one M. Penry to examine part of it and as an other Aristarchus to censure it His booke was sent me I haue viewed it and doe finde strange things in it Aduise was giuen me not to vouchsafe an answere because M. Penry is very ignorant and his Treatise very sillie and corrupt stuffe I considered waightely of it but resolued to take some paines The reasons which induced me are First S. Paul vouchsafed in Gods cause to deale with Demetrius the siluer and Alexander the copper smith The Prophet Ezechiel in the like cause did set himselfe against certaine wicked women c. Ezech. 13. Secondly many haue beene mislead by his absurd fancies To cure these if God will and to stay other my labour is not amisse Lastly I am personally both charged and chalenged by him therefore it became me to take pen in hand M. Penries booke is a fardle of grosse errours None accompt of it but such as are of the fantasticall crewe men extremely both proude and ignorant He hath as many learned men of his side as H. N. the prince of the familie of Loue had of his that is neuer a one therefore a little Arithmetique will serue to number them If it had pleased him to haue considered of and rested in the iudgement and direction of very famous men and Churches he had not swarued from Gods booke he had sailed by a sure compasse he had not broched such fancies as Gods Church with one voyce condemneth Nestorius was an absurd heretike he had some sparkles of eloquence by nature hee was in his owne opinion learned but in deede very ignorant his pride was such that he vouchsafed not to reade any interpreters Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 32. I assure my selfe that M. Penry is very farre from Nestorius heresie I would he were as cleare ofpride and contempt of writers Caluine Beza c. men of excellent learning are cast off by him euē in those waighty causes wherein they shake hands with all the Churches of God I doe not belie him I charge him iustly it shall appeare so by Gods grace in this Treatise The question betweene him and me is not whether ignorant men may either enter into or continue in the holy ministerie for my resolution is negatiue that is that they ought not but the question is whether such as were and are baptized by Popish priests and ignorant ministers haue and doe receiue a Sacrament and whether the godly communicant is polluted by receiuing the Sacrament at the hands of vnpreaching ministers The most famous men and Churches are peremptorie for me and against him Yea M. Penry himselfe ioyneth with me in many partes of his Treatise in some other partes I confesse he sings an other song absurde for matter and out of tune for manner This inconstancie of his proceedes from a vaine humour which as a whirle-winde doeth strangely carrie and ouer-carrie him It is not in my handes to heale him if it were I woulde with all my heart I will pray vnto God to cure him Cathedram in coelo habet qui corda docet All that I desire of the godly Reader is that he wil reade my Treatise before he giue sentēce Otherwise I may iustly charge him to bring not iudicium but praejudicium that is to be very partiall Let him in Gods Name compare my arguments and answeres with my aduersaries and weigh them in equall balance if hee doeth not see clearely and feele sensibly his grosse errors Anabaptisticall fancies his eyes are dimme his fingers are benummed That he may haue present and speedie viewe of the pearles in his booke I haue set downe in a Table diuers strange particulers If they seeme harsh and rough-hewen blame M. Penry for they come out of his forge Yea I dare be bolde to say that if the Spiders webbe bee good cloth and the Cockatrice egges holsome meate then such points as I refute in this Treatise are very excellent Diuinitie I am not alone of this iudgement the worthiest Diuines in this land iumpe with me and do mislike and condemne his absurdities It pleased God to assist mee graciously in the paines I haue taken I thanke his Maiestie very humbly for it I doubt not but that he will giue a blessing vnto it The Lord giue vs grace to see and know our ignorance to be truely humble to grow in godly knowledge and not in Anabaptistical and blasphemous fancies London Septemb. 19. 1588. Necessaria ignoramus quia non necessaria discimus A TABLE OF SOME PRINcipall particulers conteined in this treatise ALmightie God neuer called any to bee Magistrates but hee furnished them accordingly Chap. 3. pag. 59. 60. 61. Magistracie is Gods ordinance not a deuise of man Chap. 13. page 136. 137. The reading of the holy Scriptures doeth edifie Chap. 4. pag. 62. 63. 64. The Scripture is of credit in it selfe Chap. 8. page 102. The Popish church is a church though not a sounde Church Chap. 17. pag. 147. 148. 149. 151. and Chap. 23. pag. 176. Whosoeuer sayeth or writeth that our Queene is a Schismatique for separating herselfe her subiects from the popish Church if the popish Church be a Church in any regard maketh a grosse and Popish collection and is at the least an vnduetifull subiect Chap. 17. page 151. Whether no more fellowship is to be had with papists in religiō matters then with pagane Idolaters Cap. 23. pa. 181. Amightie God neuer called any to the holy ministery either in the old or new Testament but he furnished them with gifts fit for that holy function Chap. 2. pag. 55. 56. c. Such as are in the ministerie and haue gifts in no measure ought to be remoued by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church Chap. 9. page 110. None vnbaptized may be a publique teacher in the visible Church Chap. 8. page 93. Popish priests haue a calling though a faultie one Chap. 18. page 154. 155. The approbation of the Church maketh him a minister to vs which is not called by almighty God Cap. 12. pa. 132. They were sacrifices and Sacraments which were deliuered by the ignorant Leuiticall Priestes Chap. 8. pa. 104. The godly are not polluted which receiue the Sacraments at the hands of vnpreaching ministers Chap. 9. page 108. 110. 113. 114. 115. and Chap. 14. page 138. A Sermon is not required necessarily to the essence of a Sacrament Chap. 7.

the souldier or the merchāt aduenturer which in their places are a singular defence to their countrey by sea and land therefore it is a heinous sinne to robbe Churchmen which as Elias are the Chariots and horsemen of the common wealth The weapons of our warrefare saith the Apostle are not carnal but mighty through God to cast downe holdes casting downe the imaginations and euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God and bringing into captituitie euery thought to the obedience of Christ and hauing ready the vengeance against all disobedience c. 2. Cor. 10. The repairing of Churches is to bee performed carefully So was it in king Ioas time therefore much more prouision for the teachers the Priestes maintenance in Ioas time neither was nor might be abridged for repairing of the Churches the reason of it is conteined in these wordes The money of the trespasse offering and the money of the Sinne offring was not brought into the Lordes house for it was the Priests 2. Kings 12. Skilfull teachers doe plough the Lords field and are the Lords both mouth and hands to deliuer his blessings and treasure vnto vs therefore they ought to haue defence and maintenance and not to wander as Michas Priest did Iudg. 17. Students cannot liue of the ayre as the Chamelion doth Church pollers shut vp the kingdome of heauen before mē for they themselues goe not in neither suffer they them that would enter to come in therefore the woe denounced by Christ against the Scribes and Pharises seazeth vpon them Matth. 23. Ezechias the King of Iuda commanded that the Priests and Leuites should haue maintenance and that their wiues children and families should bee prouided for 2. Chron. 31. vers 4 18. Thus did Hezekiah throughout all Iudah and did well and vprightly and truely before the Lord his God And in all the works that he began for the seruice of the house of God both in the Law and in the Commandements to seeke his God he did it will all his heart and prospered 2. Chron. 31. vers 20 21. Diuers famous Princes haue had some Church-men to be of their honorable Councel Iehoiada was in King Ioas Court 2. Chron. 24. Zadok and Abiathar in Dauid and Salomons Court 2. Sam. 20. 1. King 4. Daniel in Darius Court Dan. 6. It is Queene Elizabeths pleasure that the worthiest men should bee aduaunced for the gouernement and seruice of the Church That very meane choise hath bene made of diuers Churchmen the land sees feeles and cries out of Question Whether such thinges as were giuen for the maintenance of idolatry may and ought to be conuerted to the seruice of God Answere They may and ought My reasons are If men should conuert them to their priuate vse it might be iustly thought that in abolishing superstition priuate gaine is the marke which is shot at and not the aduancing of Gods religion August epist. 154. When such things are conuerted not to priuate but common vses or to the honour of God that falleth out in them which in men themselues when of Church robbers and wicked men they are conuerted to true religion August epist 154. Eleazar the Priest tooke the brasen censers which they that were burnt had offered and made broad plates of them for a couering of the Altar Numb 16. The gold siluer the vessels of brasse and Iron in Iericho were brought into the Lordes treasury Ios 6. Gedeon did offer vnto the Lorde a bullocke which had bin fed for Baals seruice and did vse the wood of the groue a dioyning Iudg. 6. If such thinges as were giuen to the maintenance of Poperie may not be conuerted to the seruice of God then pull downe Churches and Vniuersities take away their landes c. And let Atheisme be in steade of Gods religion and Macciauell in the place of the new Testament 5. ALMIGHTIE GOD blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote and embrace his religion THe holy host setteth out in liuely colours the cōsequents of teaching and embracing the Lordes religion They shall breake their swordes into mattockes and their speares into siethes they shall sit euery man vnder his vine and figge tree without feare of the enemie Mich. 4. The prophet Esay singeth the same song The Wolfe shall dwell with the Lambe The Leoparde shall lie with the kidde the Cowe and the Beare shall feede together Esay 11. That is wicked men which in cruell affections resemble the Wolfe the Leoparde the Beare shall cast off the chaine of pride and the garment of crueltie and shall goe hand in hand with the godlie who for their innocencie are compared to the Lambe the Cowe the Kidde The reason is For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lorde Esay 11. The Egyptians and Assyrians were deadly enemies they denied traffique one to an other and all passages were shut vp betweene Egypt and Assyria Esay describing a great alteration of minds in them of Egypt and Assyria sayth that There shall be apath from Egypt to Assur and Assur shall come into Egypt and Egypt into Assur The reason of their agreement is set downe in these words The Egyptians shall worship the Lord with Assur Esay 19. Where idolatrie is aduanced no peace can bee looked for They chose newe gods saith Deborah Then was warre in the gates Iudg. 5. The Israelites for a long time were without the true God without Priest to teach In that time saith the Prophet Azariah there was no peace for nation was destroyed of nation and citie of citie 2. Chron. 15. The Reubenites Gadites and halfe tribe of Manasseh transgressed against the God of their fathers and went a whoring after the gods of the people of the lande whome God had destroyed before them The God of Israel stirred vp the spirit of the kings of Assyria who caryed them away captiue c. 1. Chron. 5. Iehoram the king of Iuda did forsake the Lorde God of his fathers the consequents were Edom Libnah rebelled the Lorde stirred vp against Iehoram the spirit of the Philistines Arabians 2. Chron. 21. King Ahaz was a notable idolater He sacrificed to the gods of Damascus the Edomites and Philistines inuaded the cities of Iuda and preuailed Yea the king of Aslyria whose helpe Ahaz desired and accounted greatly of did trouble and not strengthen him 2. Chron. 28. Iehoiakim the king of Iuda did euill in the sight of the Lorde his God The king of Babel came vp against him and bound him with chaines to carie him to Babel 2. Chron. 36. They which dissent in religion cannot bee knit fast together The Samaritanes and Iewes differed in religion they contended about the Temple Ioh. 4. The stirre betweene them was very great Some in the Apostles times after Christ ascensiō vrged circumcision as necessary vnto saluation other condemned it as an absurd grosse error The stirre was great in the Churches of Antiochia and Galatia Arius erred blasphemously about the godhead

the place of a priest among them was no priest in deed though he ten thousand times profaned circumcision would brag neuer so often that he worshipped after his Idolatrous maner no other God but the God of his father Abraham and sware onely by the feare of his father Isaac The reason hereof is because that euery priest vnder the law must be an Israelite by profession that is a member of the true Church neither could any of the godly assure themselues that an Edomitish priest admistred true circumcision according to the substance Now I reckon of a popish priest no otherwise thē I would haue done of an Ismaelitish or Edomitish circumciser the profanation of that seale of the couenant still continuing in mount Seir. R. Some Your Maior propositions in your two first arguments are viz. Euery Minister must bee at the least by profession a member of the true Church And euery Minister hath an office within the body of the Church My answere is that your Maior propositions and the proofe of them out of the 12. to the Rom. are true if you giue them this sense viz. that euery lawfull and good Minister of God is by prosession a member and hath an office within the body of the sound Church If you vnderstand your Maior propositions otherwise I deny them my reason is Excommunicated heretiques which administer true baptisme out of the Church had a calling though a faultie one and yet these heretiques neither were mēbers nor had any office in the true Church That Iudas was a vessel of wrath and yet an Apostle and a member of the Church in the iudgement of the Church I make no question The case of many hypocrites hath may be such for reprobation and ministerie though not for Apostleship That which I like of in this Treatise of yours I will either alow by some short speach or else passe ouer with silence Cauiling and wrangling become not such as professe and loue the Religion If none may be a Minister in Gods Church by Gods order but such as are members that is engraffed into Gods Church it is a good consequent that none in the time of the Law might be a Leuiticall Priest which was vncircumcised Which point you dealt very strāgly in before It is true that none might be a Leuiticall priest which was not a Iewe by profession and of the line of Aaron but yet not euery one of Aarons line if he were vnfit for that holy functiō might be admitted to the Leuiticall priesthood as you gaue out before very absurdly No popish Priest as hee is a popish Priest is accompted a Minister in our Church If you thinke otherwise you thinke amisse for I can assure you that none which haue bene popish Priestes either did or doe administer in our Church without the allowance of our Church I confesse they receiue not imposition of handes againe either in our Church or in other reformed Churches If Circumcision was amongst the Ismaelites and Edomites as you write and I affirme then a Sacrament was amongst them I pray you remember this The Priestes of Idumea I graunt were not Priestes in deede that is they were not lawfull and good Ministers of God for they had no lawfull calling yet they had a calling though a faultie one Otherwise Circumcision administred by them had bene no Sacrament That which decemeth you is that you do not distinguish betweene a lawfull and good Minister of God and a Minister betweene a lawfull calling and a calling c. I. Penry Whereas in the assumption or second part of both the reasons I deny popish Priests to be members of the Church my meaning is not that there are none of the elect within the body of Popery whom the Lord may cal in his good time For I woulde not deny this vnto Mahometisme or that there are not left in Popery certaine rubishes steps of true Religion for this difference I make betwene them and other Infidels though the Iewes also may claime this vnto themselues But I meane that the Popish religion is such a religion as whosoeuer liueth dieth in the profession thereof he liueth and dieth out of the Church where saluation is not possibly to be had for any thing that is made knowen vnto man Whence it necessarily foloweth that in Popery there is no Church If it be obiected that the Papists are within the Couenant inasmuch as long since they professed the trueth Mine answere will be that Popery was neuer the trueth as yet that no Papist in that hee was a Papist euer professed the trueth and that God made no Couenant with professed Idolaters as all Papists are R. Some Your Minor propositions in your two first arguments are viz. No popish priest is by profession a mēber of the church And No popish priest hath an office within the bodie of the Church My answer is If by church in your Minor propositiōs you meane a sound Church I grant that no popish priest as he is a popish priest and a professed papist is either a member by profession or hath an office within the bodie of the Church If by Church you meane an vnsound Church My answer is that a popish priest is a member hath an office within the body of the church My reason is the popish church is a church though an vnsound church For proofe of this I haue vsed diuerse reasons in this Treatise I referre you to them If they wil not downe with you you must confute the seuerall writings of Caluine in his Institutions Commentaries and Epistles of other famous men and condemne the iudgement of all the reformed churches If your stomacke serue you you haue matter inough to work on more thē you were wel aware of That steps of true Religion remaine in the Popish Church it is manifest for God preserued in that Church verbum suum baptismum That is his Word and Baptisme Beza in Annot. Matt. 23.2 Yea we of the Religion haue receiued many good things from the papists as the Israelites did the Arke frō the Philistines I graunt that the Iewes haue many good things amōgst them yet there is great difference betwene Iewes papists The papist receiueth the new Testamēt so doth not the Iew. The papist doth not vse circūcision because the date of it is out but baptisme which is an engraffing into Christ The Iewe retaineth circumcision doth not admit baptisme That the papists are not altogether aliens frō Gods couenant I haue shewed before and doe rest in M. Caluines iudgement for that point You write that poperie was neuer the trueth as yet If you meane that all poperie was neuer the trueth as yet I agree with you If you meane that no part in poperie was euer the trueth as yet you erre grossely and are refuted by your owne words which are that there are certaine steppes of true religion in poperie You giue out that no papist in that