An Answer BY AN ANABAPTIST TO THE Three Considerations Proposed to Mr William Penn By a pretended BAPTIST CONCERNING A MAGNA CHARTA FOR Liberty of Conscience Allowed to be Published this 10th Day of September 1688. LONDON Printed and Sold by Andrew Sowle at the Three Keys in Nags-Head-Court in Grace-Church-Street over-against the Conduit 1688. An Answer BY AN ANABAPTIST TO THE Three Considerations c. YOU desire All your Dissenting Brethren to Consider and then Answer ãâã have Consider'd but I cannot tell âther you suppose all Dissenters are ãâã Brethren or that all are your ââhren who dissent from you If first It seems probable to me you have been either Educated in âange Soyl or have forgotten ãâã Brothers Dialect so that I canââ discern that you are any otherââ a Baptist then only in Masquerade therefore am shy of owning the ââtion But if all that dissent ãâã you must therefore be reckon'd ãâã Brethren then I am in that ââber and because I think Mr Penn not have so much leisure as my at present to attend upon your ââes I intend to be in the first Rank your Respondents I consider also that though you have proposed but Three Considerations yet you have bolted out a Mulitude of Questions which administer an occasion for as many more to be retorted To your first Question Then What Validity or Security can any pretended or designed future New Law or Charter have when we see so many of the present Laws we already have may be and are by the Dispensing Power Dispensed with So many of the present Laws The Grievance then with you may lie rather in the Number than in the Dispensing Power His Majesty might with your leave perhaps have dispensed with some Persons and some Penalties too but not with so many altogether One would think by that you would not have Quarrel'd at the Dispensing Fower tho the Act for levying Twelve Pence a Week had never been Prosecuted so as the Twenty Pound a Month had been Levied nor if the Conventicle Act had been Dispensed with so as the Thirty fifth of Queen Elizabeth had been rigorously Executed I cannot tell how many but all the Laws that are Dispensed with are Penal Laws of a like nature for matters Ecclesiastical Uniformity Sacraments Oaths and Tests are the Subject of them all If this be your Grief you must be either a Conforming Baptist or such a strange sort of a Baptist as in my Forty Years Conversation among them I have never met with But to come more close to your Question What Validity can a New Law have seeing so many of these we have already are Dispensed with I Answer with a like Interrogation I grant that the King may do what his Royal Pleasure is with his own Does it thereupon follow that He may do so likewise with what is mine If I acckowledge and thankfully accept His Dispensing with a Penalty to which I am Obnoxious because I take a Liberty in matters of meer Religion which I am not allowed by Statute Laws Is it of necessry consequence that I therein acknowledge He may also impose a Fine upon me for lawfully using a Liberty when granted to me by Law It s hoped the designed New Charter for Repeal of such Penal Laws as are inconsistant with the Doctrines of Christianity will according to His Majesties Declaration both maintain the National Religion as it is now ãâã stablished by Law and provides ãâã such a Christian Liberty as may sâ Ease and Secure the Consciences Pââsons and Properties of all that ãâã Live Soberly Righteously and God in this present Age whether they ãâã Conformists or Non-conformists ãâã the National Religion And a Gâââ remains valid tho a Penalty may ãâã dispensed with But what if the New Law ãâã have no more Validity or Secâââ then these Old Ones that are Dâââsed with The Dissenters will ãâã be in so much a better Case by a New Law as that they will then be Seâââ by Law whereas till that be done ãâã are always subject to be Ruin'd ãâã colour of Law. But why are you Querulous at the Dispensing Poââ in this particular case wherein it Exercised The King declares his Opinion That Conscience ought not ãâã constrained nor People forced in mâââ of meer Religion This Principle the ground of his Dispensation Hââ you not lately observed Tâât dââ Gentlemen who being in Commâââ would not Execute these âârâ Lâââ and were therefore for a sâasââ ãâã aside are now returned again ãâã their former Stations with Râââon and the Love of their âââbours Have you not Reââ the Apââlogy for the Church of England ãâã relation to the Spirit of Persââââ for which she is accused How ãâã former Errors are extâââed by ãâã stances pag. 4. That âho tââ ãâã Parliament of the Church of ãâã did not perform what ãâ¦ã mised by some Leading Mâââ ââters in procuring them a Bill of yet there was little or nothing against them for about Nine ãâã but they had their Meetings alââ as publickly as regularly as the âââh of England had their Churches ââou not remember a Vote of the ãâã of Commons in 1680. whereby it Resolved That the Prosecution of ââstant Dissenters upon the Penal ãâã was at that time Grievous to the âââct ââall the Justices that did not Exeâââ these Laws gain Esteem by it the Church of England excuse her from the charge of Severity by not Executing these Laws for ãâã Years together Shall the Comâââ in Parliament Vote the Execution ââem a Grievance And may not King extend his Compassion toââds his Dissenting Subjects and say shall not be Executed To make a signal Act of Grace the ground groundless Jealousie and cause Contention to say no worse of it ââghly Disingenuous and discovers âââry froward and perverse Dispoâân But let us consider your next ãâã of Questions Have we or can we have any higher ââer here in England then King ââds and Commons in Parliament Asââled The Laws that are now Dispenâââ with and rendred useless were they made by that Power Can your New âârter be made by any higher or other ââer Do you think there is any Tempoââ Spiritual Power here in England aâââ the Dispensing Power And can you ãâã it appear to us To these Questiâââ you desire Mr Penn would let his Brethren and you know his Mind honestly In his stead I Answer We have no Law Makers but King Lords and Commons in Parliament Assembled but yet we are in England as well as in other parts of the World under a Law to God and thereby each Man is obliged to preserve within his own Breast the Answer of a good Conscience from which no Law of King Lords and Commons can absolve him and hence it is that we have many Fundamental Maximes of Law grounded upon the Law of God and common Reason of Mankind as well respecting the Soveraigns Prerogative as the Right of the Subject not written in Acts of Parliament but in
their Nature so invariable That as our Lawyers tell us Acts of Parliament made against them are void in themselves And if this Opinion be true these Fundamental Maximes of Law whether in Spirituals or Temporals tho they may be for a season by a particular Act of Parliament interrupted they are not thereby vacated but still retained and will at one time or other again discover their Vigor Acts not contradictory to these Fundamental Laws may be useful for a season but not having that innate Stability as Fundamental Maximes have may afterwards become useless improper and grievous to be put in Execution hence those common distinctions between Malum in se malum prohibitum And subsequent thereto in many cases a power or no power of Dispensing That which is unlawful in it self to be done as Murther Thâft Trespass and the like cannot be made lawful by any Law or Dispensation whatsoever That which is lawful in it self but becomes unlawful because prohibited by a particular Statute may be Dispensed with so as no particular Person be Damnified by that Dispensation and not otherwise Among the many Vicissitudes of Succession to the Crown between the two Houses of York and Lancaster Do you think there were no Laws in being made in the Raign of a King of one of these Branches in Fact dispens'd with by his Successor of the other Branch till they came to be Repealed in Parliament Were the Oathes of Fidelity and Obedience made to the Line Interrupted required to be taken by all Judges Justices Sheriffs and other Officers Commissionated by the other Line which succeeded until they were Repealed in Parliament In the various changes of the National Religion between the Reigns of King Henry the the Eighth and Queen Elizabeth were all Penalties imposed by Laws respecting Religion exacted without any Relax or Suspension till those Laws were Abrogated in Parliament In the first Year of King Henry the Fourth a whole Parliament held in the Twenty first of Richard the Second was Repealed In one of which Laws then made divers Pains of Treason were ordained whereby as the Act of Repeal says No Man did know how he ought to behave himself to Do Speak or Say for doubt of such Pain and if that Law had been Religiously observed till the moment of its Repeal It could never have been repealed In the Second Year of Richard the Third a Statute made in the First of the said King was Dispensed with by Proclamation Vaughââ ãâã pag. 353 Now I would gladly hear whââ cause my pretended Brother Bapââ has to Quarrel at his present Majeâââ gracious Dispensing with Laws inâââing Temporal Penalties for Ecclesiatical Matters and rendring then useâ less for the present in that respeââ only till they can be Repealed Parliament And wherein the exceed of this Dispensing Power has exceââed what has been in Fact done by ãâã Royal Predecessors and admitted may be lawfully done by our greatest Lawyers But to proceed Shall your New Charter have a Peââty inserted to be inflicted on the Infringeâ or Breakers of it or no If not Wââ will your New Charter signifie Nââ three skips of a Lowse And if it ãâã a Penalty Cannot any King by his Prerogative and Authority Royal Dispence ãâã the Penalty And what will it signâââ then This pretended Baptist's Resolution of the first of these Questions is ãâã Weak as it is Idle and both that anâ the others may receive a satisfactory Answer Such a New Charta as is desired iâ no Penalty be annex'd may be very significant in many respects 1 ãâã may be materially good and obligââ to Obedience by its innate Vertue oââ pain of Condemnation by the Divinââ Law and in that respect of greater signification and much more desirable then such Laws as are materially ââd and cannot be obeyed without Breaââ of a Law of God. 2 This Neââââââter may without annexing any ââlties Repeal all those Penalties ãâã which Persons are compelled to âârm Acts of Divine Worship ââary to their Understanding ãâã and a Good Conscience and put ãâã of the Power of any Dispensaââââo revive those Laws or to imââ Penalties of the like kind 3 ãâã a New Law may without any Peââs by its simple Declarations put ââe to that which is now unreaâly made the ground of all our âests and confirm to us all those ãâã by which our Liberties and âârties are preserved ãâã presuming it may also have Peââ inserted to be inflicted on the ââgers or Breakers of it These ââe so qualified as not to be Disââ with if under the colour âââf evil minded Men do not pracââon the Soveraign Power For ãâã a case if the Soveraign Power ãâã Dispence with the Penalty of a ãâã Laws it may be divested of such ãâã as are necessary for its own Preââon but in any ordinary case if âârson or Body Corporate receive ââlar Damage by the breach of New Law He or They may if the ââtors please be Intitled to a ââlar Action by the same Law and recover Damages against the Breakers of it ãâã Rep. ãâã 342. at the Kings Suit by ââent or Presentment or by a ãâã Action with which the King ãâã Dispence ãâã Instance you give to put us âf Doubt in Mr Langhornes ãâã touching the Kings Right in Dispensing with Penal Laws I shall not Repeat but only observe That the Opinion you cite however you may do it in scorn carries such an Evidence in it for a Dispensing Power not in ordinary Cases as that Author has well observed but upon extraordinary Occasions when the King in his Wisdom shall find it necessary as calls for more Cunning then I yet perceive in you to raise any material Objection against it Qu. Now where is the assurance then of Mr Penn's New Charter Ans Our Assurance will lie not only in the Authority of the Legislators equal to any other Law but also in the Authority of the Matter which will command an Assent in every Mans Conscience assoon as he reads it Not to do that to another which he would not have done to himself Our Assurance will be in our Love and Affection One towards Another as Neighbours concern'd to promote the common Interest of the Realm In the Watchfulness of all Parties against any one particular Faction if any such should rise up and attempt to in thrall the Consciences of all the rest in our thankful and dutiful Behaviour towards our Soveraign for breaking off those intolerable Yoaks we could not bear and setting us upon such a lasting Foundation both for our Civil and Religious Liberties as with a discreet Care and Managemant of them may remain firm to Perpetuity Qu. But who can tell what King we may have after our present Soveraign whether so mercifull or so just Or what SheriffS the next King may chose and what Returns of Parliament Men they may make For you know the Forfeiture on the Sheriffs making a false Return is no great matter
and cannot a King pardon it by his Dispensing Power or Authority Royal What will nay what can your nâw Charter then signifie when it either is or may be according to your own Doctrin Invalidated Disannlled or Annihilated in an instant Ans If there should be raised by my Querest or any other like him such a perverse Spirit and behaviour in any Party of Men as to prevent the Nations selted enjoyment of these Priviledges we now have as Men and Christians by his Majesties Prudence Justice and Clemency who can tell indeed what the sad Consequences of it may be But if Duty Reason and common Interest prevail here is nothing offer'd that should cause any Man to slack his utmost diligence and endeavours to arrive at the Settlement proposed by a New Charter For what do these Queries tend to or what of any weight do they contain For First Does William Penn or any party of Dissenters propose any such Methods to be persued as may advance Prerogative to that degree as to Invalidate or Annihilate all our Laws Secondly Is not the National Religion as it is Stiled in ãâã first place to be maintainââ ãâã as well secured as any ãâã new Law can make it with ãâã a Liberty for consiââcion Dââters from it in the worthââ ãâã Explââing of all Liâââness as may free thââ ãâã future inconveniency upon ãâã of Religion Thirdly Is any thing ãâã that by a new Chaâter ãâã power should be given to ãâ¦ã for choosing of Sheriffs thaâ he has or that the penaltiââ a Sheriffs making false ãâã shall be less then now they ãâã or any thing else to returâ Case worse then it is You take it for granted I ãâã which I do not know nor youâ neither as I suppose that the ãâã Forfeiture who shall make a ãâã turn is no great matter or that the King can pardon or diââââ with The Case of Sâ Samâânardiston wheâein he had a Verâââ Eight Hundred Pounds damage against a Sheriff for a false Returâ inform you otherwise and ââââly a new Charter will not maââ Penal then now it is but if it ãâã ever happen notwithstanding Charter as it has heretofore âapââ notwithstanding our old Charter ãâã Knights and Burgesses should ãâã duly chosen the same Faâe âââtend such a Parliament as diââ of 38 H. 6. âow come to your second Conââââon wherein you pray Mr ãâã to consider What his New âââter can signifie so long as there High Commission Court or a high mission for Ecclesiastical Affairs ãâã Cannot those Commissioners ãâã any of your and our Preachers ââhers or Ministers to Task when âââse Cannot they when they ãâã a mind to it suspend Mr Pen âââcorge Whitehead Mr Alsop âââobb Mr Mead or Mr Bowyer ãâã as the Bishop of London c. âot the Court when they will or ãâã think fit or be commanded susâââ silence or forbid any or all the âââing Ministers to Preach any ãâã in their Meetings if they will ãâã Read any Declaration or Order ãâã ever that the King shall set forth require them to Read Remember Magdalen Colledge Men Reââber also that Sawse for a Goose is âay be Sawse for a Gander ââs The case of Magdalen Colââââ is published at large you may ââd it if you please and Answer ãâã you can especially the paraâase in Edwards the Sixth time ãâã pray what is that to a New âââter If wrong Judgment was ââân by the Court as you perâââs suppose in that case do you âââe no difference between Disâââing with a Law and wrong âââgment given against a Law if ãâã such should be in Westminster ãâã or the Ecclesiastical Court. âf the Dissenters you name or you who pretend to be a Baptist be of the Clergy of England in the Eye of the Law and hold Ecclesiastical Affairs and Benefits they or you may for Mis-behaviour be suspended from them by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners But why do you fancy that a New Charter by which it is expected that Penalties for matters of meer Religion will be repealed should be made to signifie nothing by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners which now are I can easily fore-see that a New Charter may make that Commission in the cases you mention to signifie nothing but I cannot imagine how that Commission should make a New Charter insignificant As to the silencing of Dissenting Ministers its evident as the Law now is their reading or not reading the Kings Declaration in their Meetings will not prevent it if the King withdraw his Favour nor is there any cause to give the Ecclesiastical Commissioners any trouble about them for as the Laws now are there are other Ecclesiastical Courts which with the aid of the Justices at their Sessions are sufficiently impowred to Censure Fine Imprison Banish or Hang them for their Non-conformity to the Religion Established by Law. You exhort us to see before we Leap whether the Words in the Orders set forth in the Gazett for contempt of his Majesties Authority will run no further then just Mr Penn will have it And ask Can he stop the Current of it when he pleases and says If he could we are not sure he would for formerly he had no great kindness we know for us Baptists and other Dissenters and if he could and would we are not sure of his Life how long therefore it will be the greatest piece of Weakness and Folly in the World for us to Dance after his and the Jesuits Pipe alone contrary both to all common Sence and Reason and our own general Interest Ans How do you make out your Inference That to do as you say is the greatest piece of Weakness and Folly I take it to be altogether as great folly to Dance after your Pipe in Company contrary to common Sence Reason and Interest as after Mr Penn and the Jesuites alone surely in this you take the Dissenters to be very forgetful of what their Senses so lately testified when under the feeling Prosecution of Penal Laws and to be unreasonably ignorant of their Interest in desiring those Penal Laws may be Repealed in Parliament and a due Liberty of Conscience Established in their room But for what cause do you reflect upon Mr Penn I take it as a certain Evidence that all Pamphlets on this Subject that are interlaced with personal Reflections asserted on Surmises without proof are designed to promote Factions Dissentions rather then to Unite in one common Interest and heal our uncharitable Divisions I have known Mr Penn for many Years and have been credibly informed by others that from his Age of Seventeen Years he has been an ââmate Associate with the most ââânent of Dissenters that when ãâã was of Christ Church Colledge in Oxford he was fined for his ãâã from the Religious Ceremonies ãâã the Colledge He suffered ãâã Hardships in his Fathers Family ãâã that account has been a conââââ Advocate these Twenty Years ãâã the Liberty we enjoy and hope ãâã to have confirm'd I have ãâã of
many good Offices he has ãâã at Court both for Dissenâââ Conformists that he has impâââââ that Favour which has been ãâã him by his Prince both before ãâã since his Ascending to the Thâââ for the Benefit and not to the ãâã judice of others I have not ãâã of any rich Presents or Rewâââ that have been given or required any of his Services or any ââployments he seeks or accepts ãâã How his pleadings for Liberty Conscience has or can tend to ãâã improvement of his Revenues ãâã cannot apprehend neither thâââfore if you will free your ãâã from the suspition of an ill ãâã sign and a groundless Aspeâââ tho Mr Penn may be no Frienâ such pretended Baptists and now Dissenters as you are its incuâââ on you to shew wherein he has ââânifested that he had formerly great Kindness for those that really such upon this account I pass by your trifling about enlarging or limiting Authority the power or will length or âââness of Mr Penn's Life and proâââ Thirdly To consider above all what âââity or Validity this New Charter ââbe of when there is a standing Arâââ kept on Foot Whether Guns will ãâã Reason or Dragoons mind Chartâââ or Arguments your reference to ãâã practice in France if we are not ââangely Infatuated and given up to âân and Destruction your Query ââether their Carriage and Quartering ââll agree with a New Charter for âiberty and if Mr Penn be a Friend ãâã Liberty for Liberties sake you deââââe an honest clear nnd satisfactory Answer to these Three Points In Mr Penn's stead give me leave ât present to return you an answer ây asking you some Questions Is the Western Rebellion slipt out of your mind Was there no occasion given for multiplying Dragoons Is Soveraign Power so limited by our Laws as that it cannot make use of such means as are of apparent and absolute necessity for its own preservation Did you ever know of any Army wherein no dissorders were committed in their Marches or Quarternings Are our Dragoons without any discipline for reforming or punishing abuses when they are complained of Do you and such as follow your Examples take a right course to avoid such mischiefs being done in England by Dragoons as are committed in France I am as far from defending any of their disorders or desiring their continuance longer then needs must as I am from beleiving you to be a Baptist But sure I am whatever you are your Reasoning are very unfavory and unsafe tending to fasten us under that Bondage you seemingly advise us to avoid for to deal plainly and honestly with you as you desire Mr Penn to do I see no way to escape the dissorders that are either felt or feared but by giving His Majesty full satisfaction not only of our Fidelity but of our Affection also to his Person and Government in complying with what he shall propose for maintenance of the National Religion and all the possessions of the Clergy as Established by Law and abolishing all such Penalties for Non-conformity to the National Religion as may be found inconsistent with the common Right and Reason of Mankind Doctrines of Christianity and Interest of England I shall now consider your closing points 1 In the mean time it appears to be highly the Duty of all Men as well Dissenters as others who have Votes in choosing Parliament-Men above all to choose such Faithful Patriots as will take care of these things already hinted and others that may be brought before them that our Liberties our Laws and our Lives may be preserved from ill designing Men and from future Quo Warranto's and all the high Violaters and Infringers thereof called to accompt and justly punished this will well become them and secure us more then any titular Charter whatsoever If you had only advised the choosing Faithful Patriots for Parliament-Men without cutting out their Work your advice might have been sound or if you had only looked forwards that our Liberties and our Lives might be preserved from ill designing Men and our Laws so settled that all good Subjects may equally share in the benefit of them your Advice might have been seasonable for it is evident that our Circumstances require as wise and moderate Men experienced in civil and Religious affairs as every Parliament in England did and if the Nation be bless'd with such a Choice in the next Parliament all sober persons may by their wise Councels be out of fear of suffering Prejudice by future accidents of State But at this juncture to talk of calling to an Accompt and punishing all such as you may reckon high Violaters and Infringers of our Laws and Liberties is very unseasonable Pray tell us since you undertake to Chalk out the way for a Parliament and propose the Work you would have done by them how far they are to look back and where and with what sort of Men you would have them begin with such of the Clergy or of the Lawyers as were the first Advancers of Prerogative above your measures or with the Dissenters for thankfully accepting the Kings Indulgence and making use of the Liberty he has been pleaed to grant in their peaceable and Religious Assemblies after so many Convulsions in the State Plââââ and Counter-plots as we have known in our Age. The same things to be liable to Penalties ãâã one season which at another time have been marks of the greatest Loyalty sober Men cannot but think it is high time to adhere to and persue those Royal Methods that have been with good success begun and are proposed to be ââtled on terms of lasting security and Peace If the Case should be proposed to any Assembly your self being in the company in reference to any Man that you can mark out as it was by the Jewes in reference to the Adulteress before our Saviour That he who is without Fault should cast the first Stone your supposed Criminal might escape by the Assemblys going out one by one from the Eldest to the last convict in their own Consciences and if you should have the confidence to stay behind the rest it might be no good evidence of an awaken'd Conscience but if Peace-makers have singular marks of favour always attending them certainly such worthy Patriots as at this season shall be found in that Work repairing our Breaches healing our Divisions setling our Civil and Religious concerns that whoever will conscientiously discharge his duty to God his King and his Neighbour may not only enjoy Peace and Truth in his Days but leave it on like terms as a Blessing ãâã his Posterity will deserve the ââest marks of favour from all âââd Men and may therein also âââest a Blessing from Heaven Liberty say you is indeed a Fine âââd but Remember Brethren what Apostle Peter hath told us That ãâã there were that while ãâã promise them Liberty they ââââselves are the Servants of ââruption And Observe what ââws For of whom a Man is ãâã âome of