Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n
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A42764
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A late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine concerning the present condition of the Church of England in which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of ...
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Gillespie, George, 1613-1648.
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1644
(1644)
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Wing G753; ESTC R15751
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28,350
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44
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A LATE DIALOGUE BETWIXT A CIVILIAN and a Divine concerning the present condition of the Church of ENGLAND In which among other particulars these following are especially spoken of 1 The sinne and danger of delaying Reformation 2 That there is a certain form of Church-Government Jure Divino 3 That there was an Ecclesiasticall Excommunication among the Jews 4 That Excommunication is an Ordinance in the New Testament 5 Concerning the Toleration of all Sects and Heresies 6 Some Answer to a late Book come from Oxford 1 Thes. 5.21 Prove all things hold fast that which is good Published by Authority LONDON Printed for Robert Bostock dwelling in Pauls Church-yard at the Signe of the Kings Head 1644. A LATE DIALOGVE Betwixt a Civilian and a Divine concerning the present condition of the CHURCH of ENGLAND c. Divine GOOD Morrow to you good Sir Civilian I am glad to see you Sir will you take a walk with me this morning and tell me what good newes yee have heard for I have not yet been in Westminster Hall the place most infected with the Athenian disease Divine I can tell you no newes at this time Civilian You look as you were not well pleased to day pray you tell me have you heard any bad newes from the North or from the West Divine None truly but this I confesse that though I cannot but allow those who from their affection to the Cause are inquisitive of newes from severall quarters and labour to make some good use of what they heare yet for mine own part one thing sticks with me which suffereth me not either to be so curious in seeking or so joviall in hearing newes as many others are The truth is I am more afraid and apprehensive of our owne then of our enemies victories Civilian This is a most strange paradox what can you mean by it I hope you are not turned malignant Divine If it be Paradoxall yet I am sure it is Orthodoxall I remember judicious Calvin said the same of the German warres in his time There is more danger said he like to come by our owne then by our enemies victory I desire his words may bee well observed and applyed I dare say God is more gracious to us in continuing this war of ours then if he should answer our desires in putting an end to it presently When God blesseth our forces with any great successe nay when hee doth but draw back his afflicting hand a little and giveth us some lightning of our eyes O how doe we by and by forget God and slight both Huâ—iliation and Reformation * Then Iesurum forsook God which made him and lightly esteemed the rock of his â—alvation * But when he slew them then they sought him and returned and inquired after God early There were never serious and deep thoughts either in the Parliament or in the Kingdome of fasting and praying of covenanting with God of purging our hearts our lives our families of reforming the Church according to the word of building the Temple according to the patterne of caring for the things of Jesus Christ more then for their own things never but when we felt Gods hand smart and heavy upon us And if now the sword of the Lord should be still and England a quiet habitation every man sitting under his own vine and under his owne figtree I verily believe our great State-Physitians should heale the wound of the daughter of Sion slightly and daube the wall with untempered morter and the Church of God in this Kingdome should have dry breasts and a miscarrying wombe instead of bringing forth the manchild of Reformation now sticking in the birth but having no strength to come forth till some new pains and pangs quicken and carry through the work Civilian I must confesse the Reformation of our selves and our families hath been and is still too much neglected But for Nationall and Church-Reformation I doe not know what can be more done then is done considering our intestine divisions among our selves which as Mr. Fox observeth was the undoing of the Church and of Religion in King Edwards dayes and is like to prove the bane of Religion and Reformation in our dayes Ita dum singuli pugnant universi vincuntur as Tacitus speaketh of the ancient Brittish Divine Sir I desire that first of all this may be laid downe as a sure Principle that the purity and liberty of the Gospel and of the Ordinances of Jesus Christ is to bee more esteemed of and sought after then all or any thing in this world That it is said as well to States and Parliaments as to particular persons Seek yee first the Kingdome of God and the righteousnesse thereof and all these things shall be added unto you The setling of Religion is to be looked upon as causall not as consequent to the peace and prosperity of the Kingdom Doe but prove the Lord now herewith and see if he will not appoint salvation for walls and bâ—â—â—marks if he will not honour those that honour him if he will not be zealous for those that are zealous for him The Trojans believed that Troy could not be taken except their idoll Palladium were taken away from them which being once taken away by Vlysses and Diomedes they observed that shortly thereafter their Town was destroyed Arnoâ—ius tells us that when the Iâ—age of Iupiter was throwne down in the Capitoll and was lying upon the ground the heathenish Soâ—th-savers did foretell sad and heavy things which should never be removed till Iupiter were set in his owne place whicâ— iâ— it were no done that they did in vain hope for the preservation of the lawes or the healing of their homebred divisions Shall those Pagans rise up in judgement against us Christians who doe so overly and slightly goe about the building of the house of God and the erecting of the throne of Jesus Christ who care for something else more then for his Church and Kingdome his glory and his ordinances who seek our owne things not the things which are Jesus Christs Civilian No man can say against this that true Religion is the Alpha and Omega of a Kingdomes happinesse and that it is their surest foundation and strongest bullwark of Peace Liberties and Lawes And I trust the Parliament will ever be most tender and carefull of it and put it in its own place as they have frequently professed in their Declarations and really manifested in calling and keeping together an Assembly of learned and pious Divâ—nes the results of whose debates and consultations tâ—ey will take to their consideration in due time for setling the government of the Church and the worship of God Divine If you would really and carefully indeavour to doe what you professe to intend I have no more to say but that the successe is to be committed to God you having done your duty But assuredly the practises doe not answer to the professions nor
the performances to the promises Civilian For that I must tell you a story which I remember that I have read in Diodorus Siculus of Pharnabazus who after many slow preparations did at last lead forth Artaxerxes his Army against the Egyptians This man being asked by Iphiâ—rates why he was so nimble and ready in discourse and so slow in action why he did promise so much and performe so little answered because hee was master of his words but King of his actions meaning that actions were not so much in his power as words Divine All things are possible to him that believeth Doe not say with the sluggard There is a Lyon in the way If you would but doe your duty in going about the thing trust God with the event Now assuredly it is your duty to carry on the cause of Religion in the first and principall place which that I may the more presse upon you I will adde unto that which hath been said the notable example of Solomon 1. King 6.37 38. 7.1 In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the Lord laid in the moneth Zif and in the eleventh year in the moneth Bull which is the eight month was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof and according to all the fashion of it So was â—e seaven yeares in building it But Solomon was building his own house thirteen yeares Neither did he begin to build his own house till those seven yeares were ended and the house of the Lord fully perfected as appeareth clearly by 2. Chron. 8.1 and it came to passe at the end of twenty yeares wherein Solomon had built the house of the Lord and his owne house After all which as followeth in that place hee took care for store-Cities and fenced Cities for tribute and for his navy Tostatus and other Interpreters observe that Solomon looked first to the Lords matters and afterwards to his owne matters And Iosephus his observation is very much to be taken notice of The building of the Temple saith he which did continue for seven yeares being finished he went about the building of the Palace which in the thirteenth yeare he did scarcely finish for hee did not take so much care of this work as of the building of the Temple which though both large and more glorious then can be beleeved was through Gods assistance perfected in the foresaid space but the Palace though very farre inferiour to the magnificence of the Temple yet the materialls thereof not being so long before prepared and the house being to be builded for the King not for God it was the more slowly brought to perfection Civilian But I beseech you where is the fault with us and what could be more done then is done Divine O but my heart bleeds to think how it goeth for the present and how it is like to goe for the future with this distracted unsetled Church what fruits have wee yet reaped of our many petitions and indeavours for reformation of Religion of our solemn Covenant of the learned debates and long consultations of the Assembly of Divines Meethinks that which was said of Ephraim Hos. 13.13 agreeth too too much to England The sorrows of a travelling woman shall come upon him he is an â—nwise Son for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children I wish we may beware of that which some stories have observed to have been a most unhappy errour in the Emperour Frederick 3. who did so far connive at all things that when he was put in mind to look to this or that to prevent this or that danger hee was wont to answer as Faelix did the time of amending those things was not yet come hee would wait for a more convenient season which season hee could never see I am perswaded it lyeth heavy upon the spirits of thousands beside my selfe to know that every man doth now in Religion what seems good in his own eyes Errors and Schismes doe multiply in most places of the Kingdome there is a darknesse instead of divination and people are like sheep that have no shepheard and for ought I can see betwixt our forsaking of the old and finding of a new way wee are fallen in a wildernesse where there is no way O when shall I once see Religion setled Civilian When the warre shall be husht the State ordered and composed the Peace of the Kingdome socured it is not to bee expected till then that the Parliament can have much leisure to look to Church matters yet they will no doubt doe the best that may be for the interim Marvell not if I say more that the Parliament doth wisely in moving so slowly The slow and wary motions of Fabius did overcome Haâ—â—dbâ—â— whereas the heat and suddennesse of Minutius did indanger the Common-wealth Suddain courses I doubt shall not so much glad us in the beginning as grieve us in the end Divine I have read in some Polititians that though that of Augustus Festina lente doe well agree to calme and peaceable times yet Alexander his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} nihil cunctando is fitter for times of trouble and warre and so they reconcile the one with the other Kekerm discurs de consilio quaest. 7. It is not safe to dispute long in the time of a present combustion nor to consult long about the cure when the patient lyes a dying But I desire to argue from the principles of my owne profession God did of old reprove his people because they said The time is not yet come the time that the Lords house should be builded This they said at that time when Iudah and Benjamin had powerfull adversaries when the land was not secured nor the walls of Ierusalem built They might have pleaded for themselves enough of this kind but all this could not excuse them at Gods hands he would have them build the Temple before the walls of Ierusalem And in this they harkened to the Prophets of God and did so Thereafter God taketh themselves to witnesse whether he had not blessed them from that very day when they laid the foundation of the Temple Nay I dare say it is not only good Divinity but good Policy that the Parliament should mind the things of Christ more then their own things for if as I suppose you will believe Matchiavell hee teacheth you that the setting up of the ordinances of Christ is the best way to make a Kingdome flourish in prosperity and peace I conclude therefore that procraâ—tinations in reforming Religion may prove very pernitious aswell to the Common-wealth as to the Church And for my part I must confesse I am afraid that the Parliament hath felt and shall yet feel Gods hand against them iâ— other things because of their doing the work of the Lord so negligently and at the best by halfes I wish the Honourable House of Commons may remember what they were about at that instant