and detestable heresies and so with all plaine Idolatrie 42. a. Ye are no simple Idolater but one that maintaineth a number of heresies 42. a. Obstinate defence of such filthie mariage ibid. A foole a dolt an asse 43. a. Ye denie full pieuishly 44. a. Craftily dissembled lewdly swarued 49. a. b. Ye haue set vp your Idols that is your abhominable heresies 50. a. VVretchedly and shamefully handled ibid. Lying beyond all shame 50. b. His ridiculous dealing 50. b. The indignitie of his demeanour is to be detested 50. b. Fonde counterfeyting flat lying a lewd and a horrible lie 50. b. VVhat can be done more abhominable ibid. Your wretched doctrine 51. b. Most wretched and traiterous translation 51. b. An open and notorious lie 53. b. This most sensible and most grosse lie 55. b. Most impudent and shamelesse lies 56. a. His lewde booke ibid. M. Horne and his fellowes and his Maisters Luthers and Caluins heresies are no secret nor simple heresies but so manifolde and open that they haue no waye or shift to saue their good name and honestie blotted and blemished for euer without repentance for the obstinate maintenance of the same 56. b. Your Maisters worse than the Pelagians 57. b. Caluin and other sacramentaries 57. b. Ye drawe neare to Simon Magus 57. b. They are no petit nor secrete heresies that you and your fellowes maintaine 57. b. You and your fellowes must needes remaine stark heretikes for such to be abhorred and abandoned of all good christians 58. a. You and your companions open and notable heretikes ibid. M. Foxe in his dunghill of stinking Martyrs 59. a. M. Foxes stinking Martyrs 60. a. His diuelishe dirty dunghill of his foule hereticall and trayterous Martyrs 60. a. Stinking hereticall and foolish martyrs 61. a. Falshoode and folly 61. b. Appollinarians and Eutichians 63. b. Your falshoode your great folly 63. a. Ye are wicked deprauers of religion 65. b. Ye are as great blasphemers as euer Christes Church had ibid. Doltish diuelish Donatistes 66. a. You the sacramentaries 66. a. M. Fox c. his huge monstrous martyrologe 66. b. An open damnable heretike and a Donatist 66. b. Not only a traytour but a detestable Donatist also 66. b. His owne huge martyrologe 66. b. Like to Captaine Kets tree of reformation 66. b. Your frowarde quarrellings and customable elusions 66 b. A blunt and a foule shamelesse shift 68. b. An open and a shamelesse lie 68. b. So outragiously and blasphemously villained by you 68. b. M. Hornes foolishe figuratiue diuinitie 69. a. A foolishe and friuolous admonition 70. a. M. Hornes fantasticall imagination 70. a. M. Horne which talke so confusedly 73. a. Thousandes haue taken the othe to their damnation 73. a. Your heresies condemned 74. b. Impudent and shamelesse 75. a. A starke and most impudent lie 75. b. Facingly and desperately 75. b Fonde and foolishe 76. a. He walketh ignorantly or maliciously or both 76. b. Most ignorantly and falsly ibid. Notable lies ibid. A most notorious lie 77. a. Foolish blasphemous babling 77. a. Shamelesse lyes 77. a. As grosse as foule and as lowde a lying fetch 77. a. Schismaticall councell and hereticall synagog 77. b. VVorthie to haue bene cast to the dogges and rauens vpon a dirty dunghill 77. b. The wicked working of wretched heretikes 77. b. Plaine schismaticall and hereticall 78. a. O more than childishe folly 78. a. That craftie cooper 78. a. Your great ignorance or like malice 79. b. Ye haue one heresie more than any of your fellowes 80. a. Your great grandsires the Grecians 80. a. Ye terme with an vncleane and impure mouth 80. b. M. Hornes dissembling falshoode 83. a. Dissemblingly to vpholde a falshoode 84. b. For full and sufficient aunswere to all this and other his blacke Rhetoricke we maye returne his owne wordes on himselfe The Donatistes when they coulde not iustifie their owne doctrine nor disprooue the Catholikes doctrine leauing the doctrine fell to rayling His owne vpbrayding of slaunders YE bluster not so boysterously c. as ye lie most lewdly vppon c. whose person yee impugne for lacke of iust matter with most slaunderous reproches 1. Preface Pag. 15. His seconde common place of reprochfull slaunders neither sparing the Queenes Maiestie nor his natiue Countrey THat this religion wherby thou hopest to be saued hath no authoritie to grounde it selfe vpon 2. Pref. pag. 27. That if it haue any authoritie it hath authoritie of the Prince by whose supreme gouernment it is enacted and forced vpon thee other authoritie hath it none ibid. That of Protestants some be LutheraÌ„s some be Zuinglians some Anabaptists some Trinitaries and some be of other sectes 29. a. That King Henrie the eight and the Parliament thought erroneously 31. That King Edwarde in his minoritie set foorth a newe Religion ibid. That the Bishops nowe are but Parliament and no Church Bishops 32. That the Quéenes Maiesties title can not be applyed with any conuenient sense to any ciuill Prince especially to the person of a woman 34. That a woman is expresly by nature and by scripture excluded from being capable of spirituall gouernment ibid. That the Bishop of Winchester his meaning is to ingraft in the mindes of the subiectes a misliking of the Queenes Maiestie â–ª as though she vsurped c. Fol. 2. That he conspired to the making of a booke that spoyleth the Queenes Maiestie of all hir authoritie ibid. That he hath in open sermon at VVinchester mainteyned contrary to the Queenes ecclesiasticall iniunctions such as would not reforâ—… their disordred apparell ibid. That the 〈◊〉 hath doth mainteine many things â–ª contrary to the lawes orders of the realme to the proâ—… whereof he citeth the defending of a minister of Duâ—…ley as true as all 3. That the temporall men without yea against the consent of the whole clergie altered the estate of religion 4. b. That the Bishops are no true Bishops 7. b. That Bishop Poynet was but an vsurper with diuerse other slaunders agaynst Luther Caluine Beza Bishop Craâ—…mer c. 8. a. b. A contumelious terme of Brittle bulwarke agaynst the acte of Parliament 9. a. That our fayth hangeth on an act of Parliament ibid. That ciuil and prophane matters be conuerted into holy and ecclesiasticall ibid. That lay men are of the folde onely and are not shepeheards at all ibid. That they altar the whole religion and confounde heauen and earth togither ibid. That in King Edwardes dayes legerdemaine was played a leafe put in at the printing which was neuer proposed in the Parliament Which is an open slaunder euen of the king himselfe and his Councell The rule in the booâ—… of common prayer sayth the people shall receyue knéeling To shewe that this law ment not adoration the King and his Councell caused a declaration of the true meaning of the lawe to be drawne in tenne or twelue lines and added them to this rule ibid. He slaundereth the honourable of the Councell for vneuen ordering
false Knowledge therfore is not alwayes taken so precisely to be onely of true things but graunting you this precisenesse that knowledge is only taken to be true thingâ—… yet you do yll herein bicause ye take after your ordinarie custome Pro concesso controuersum that to be graunted that is in question whether your or our part be true or false héerin Yea why maye not we saye and that wyth greater reason that you take the truthe for falsehoode and falsehoode for truthe And so you nor any of your syde notwithstanding all youre great bragges and thys your clearkly booke haue anye true knowledge VVell maye ye saye as ye doo moste falsly and to youre poore wretched soule as well in this as in other poyntes moste dangerously beleue the contrarie but know it yee can not vnlesse it were true for knowledge is only of true things and as the Philosopher sayth Scire est per causas cognoscere Do ye know whose words al these be and yet ye sée how they serue our turne far better than yours M. Sta. bycause our cause resteth on the truth which is the infallible worde of God Deus est verax God is true yours is grounded on the doctrines of men Omnis auteÌ„ homo mendax but euery man is a lier And therfore is it lesse maruel sith ignorance and falsehood knowledge truth are al one that ye account somuch of ignorance make it to be the mother of deuotion that ye kepe down the people in ignoraÌ„ce which conspireth with falshood cannot abide knowledge that is linked with truth as ye haue loÌ„g kept the truth vnder a bushel so yet you caÌ„not abide that it shuld come to the knowlege of the people perceiuing the sith knowledge hath begon to spring in the world our cause withal as the truth hath florished yours hath drouped as that falshod wherfore your freÌ„â—… haue cried out vpoÌ„ al good letters séeing that their cause hathe had no greater enimie than knowledge is no greater maynteyner than ignoraunce Qui male agit odit lucem nec venit ad lucem ne opera eius arguantur He that doth euill sayth Christ hateth the lighte nor commeth to the light lest his workes should be reproued Next vnto this you note a rabblement of vntruthes but ye neither number them in youre Calendar but onely marke them with a starre in the forbead nor in youre replie say any more vnto them than this I will not nor tyme will serue to discusse them but why woulde youre will and your time serue you to chalenge them for vntruths and not serue you to discharge your chalenge and your owne truth in prouing them so to be but go to I see there is no remedie wée must tarie your leysure vntil that youre will come on you and that your tyme will serue you Many horrible erroures and superstitions of Monkerie The. 29. vntruth reprochefull and slaunderous This was so vntrue that all the world rang of it and the Papists themselues cried out theron Although ye were in the Tower in king Edwardes tyme that was not for any doubte of the supremacie for that ye still agnised but for other poynts of religion touching the ministration of the sacraments The. 30. vntruth This was not the cause of his imprisonment as shall appeare Here in his beadroll thoughe ye sée he denyeth it â—…latly yet in his counterblast where he toucheth the same he dare not be so impudent But saith as I vnderstande so that if hée be chalenged of rash dealing to affirme that for an vntruth that he stammereth in no will he saye looke my beadroll and ye shall fynde that I denyed it flatly and boldly withoute any stammering at the matter If againe this bolde flatnesse be proued a â—…atte lie â—…ushe will he saiâ—… I referred it in saying it shoulde appeare to my counterblast where I declare no further than I vnderstode by my freendes let it light on them if it be a lie thus cunningly Maister Stapleton hath handled the matter But a manifeste lye it is that he maketh howsoeuer he auonch or mollifie the same For this was a special cause of his imprisonment as those can tell that be yet liuing who were sente to him and to others to persuade them therein And by whome soeuer hée vnderstoode it it is but M. Stapletons and his misseinformers lye And where he would excuse the matter bicause he was examined in the matter of Iustification doth it follow therfore he was not in also for the matter of the sacrament being principally then in controuersie The Bishop only said be was in for other pointes of religion and namely touching the Sacrament but sée howe pretily M. Stapl. would bleare the readers eyes with quarelling at this half point of the sentence least the reader shoulde marke wherin the Bishop principally charged M. Feckenham that hee had confessed this article of supremacie all King Edwardes dayes and so knewe and acknowledged it then contrarie to his pretence of ignorance nowe therin And this digresseth not from the matter in hand But from this M. Stapleton slippeth in great silence and sayeth not a word therto but dalieth about other matters to finde the readers play And so by his owne rule confesseth by not denying the verye poynt in hande that M. Feckenham all king Edwards time though he were in the Tower yet euer hee agnized this title then that he refuseth nowe Wherevnto also you agreed and promised to professe and preache the same in open auditorie wheresoeuer you should be appoynted Wherevpon a right worshipfull Gentleman procured your deliuerance The. 31. vntruth slanderous He was not deliuered vpon any promise of recantation but to bee disputed withall Here M. Stapl. maketh muche adoe to conuince the Bishop of an vntruth and to make it seeme more probable he citeth diuers honourable and worshipfull to witnesse and al nothing to the purpose in hand excusing M. Feckenham of that wherwith no bodie charged him and answering nothyng but by silence consessing that that he was charged withal The bishop made no mention of any conference or disputation had with M. Feckenham after his departure oute of the tower but of that conference whiche was with him maister Moreman and maister Crispine whyle they were in the Tower. When at their owne suite to the councell they desired to haue some learned men with whom to conferre especially about the sacrifice of the Masse the ministration vnder bothe kyndes and the ministration vpon a table and not an altare And at this their sute Master Storie the Bishop then of Chichester and Maister Roberte Horne then parson of All Hallows in Breadsteat now bishop of Winchester were appointed by the honourable counsel to deals with them which they did by the space of a moneth at sundry tymes till that Master Feckenham did â–ª consent with them in all these thrée poyntes and so by maister Hobbies
and with diffinct letter which he doth not here but Paraphrastically expoundeth the texte Wherein if he doe wreste the meaning of saint Paule ye shoulde hardly note that for an vntruthe â–ª S. Paule there nameth not religion that is true but that this worde godlynesse which saint Paule nameth comprehendeth not religion as the Byshop saythe that is your owne vntruthe But this matter is debated more at large in the answere to your Counterblast chap. 18. diuis â–ª 22. where is shewed bothe by the Fathers and by your owne chiefe writers that sainte Paule by this word godlynesse meant true religion Here ye set another blasing starre vpon these words that the Byshop sayth This woulde be noted with good aduisement that Sainte Paule himselfe sheweth playnely prosperitie amongste Gods people and true religion to be the benefites and fruites in generall that by Gods ordinance springeth from the rule and gouernement of Kings and Magistrats vnto the weale of the people This would be noted say you howe ye racke saint Paule he nameth not religion at all he dothe not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrat but peace and tranquillitie only in godlynesse Ye durst not note this for an vntruth M. Stapleton but for a racking or wresting althoughe this is but your peeuish difference If he racke saint Paules meaning he telleth an vntruth of saint Paule although this dothe cleare the B. of racking also that ye durste not playnely note and score it vp for an vntruth yet as the B. saying is most true so it nothing swarueth from the meaning of sainte Paule For aâ—… the B. proueth by Chrysostome that by this worde godlynesse is meant religion and the inwarde peace of the mynde and conscience and not only the outward peace of the body So Saint Paule maketh these to bee the benefites fruites and endes that by Gods ordinaunce wee receyue from the rule and gouernement of kings and magistrates in whiche saying S. Paule is not racked but it is you M. Stapleton that racke Saint Paule â–ª for he sayth not tranquillitie and peace only in godlinesse yâ—… may put your only in your pursse Saint Paule sayth in godlinesse and purenesse The whiche knot and fastening togither of religion and prosperitie incoÌ„mon weales the most Christian and godly Emperours Theodosius Ualentinianus did wisely foresee The. 68. vntruthe They sawe no suche confounding of the two functions spirituall and temporall as you imagine This vntruth is directed against the Byshops imagination ye go verie neare the B. M. Stapleton that where hée sayth no suche wordes as you chalenge ye will créepe into his heart and fetche iâ—… from thence ye haue a goodeye sighte that can see what the B. imagineth But wisdome wil think this to bée a fonde toy of your own idle imagination for the Byshops words import no such confusion as ye talke of hée telleth howe godlynesse and prosperiâ—…e are lincked togither in common weales so that the one cannot be well without the other that the Prince is the knitting togither of both these and this he saythe the Emperours sawe and that they sawâ—… it he bringeth good proufe theire own manifest words set downe at large eyther proue this an vntruth M. Sta. or else the B. hath made nene it is but your vntrue sclaunder fonde imagination I haue proued c. That such like gouernment in Churche causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir dothe of duetie belong vnto ciuill magistrates The. 69. vntruth Such like gouernement you haue not nor euer shall be able to proue The B. saith that in this first booke he hath hitherto proued it by the scriptures the Doctours and some Emperoures This you denie that he hath done and set him a long day to proue it Nowe the truth or vntruth of this the reader must hang in suspence til be haue read the prâ—…s ouer what they bee and then in the name of God lette himiudge whether the vntruthe lyghte on the Byshoppe or on Master Stapleton In the meane season â—…ytherto the Reader maye haue a taste what shame is in this impudent mannes â—…ace what truthe in his cause and what folly in hâ—…s heade thus to the wide worlde to score and sette out suche thinges for vntruthes as beeing neuer so little rypped vp are moste apparante truthes and to make suche a tryumphante gambolde and pyping vp of a round as hee doth thereon But leâ—…te hym daunce his â—…yll and nicke vp still on the score in the ende hée will runne so farre in the lashe that no man will credite a worde of his mouthe MeÌ„daci non crâ—…ditur ne iurato quidem A lyer is not beleeued no thoughe he svveare ⧠To Master Stapletons first Preface OR euer Master Stap â–ª enter into his counterblast he prefixeth two Prefaces the first to the B. the second to the Reader The first bicause it is only a packet trussed vp of all such accusations as he layeth to the Bishops charge through out his whole counterblast and so is to be aunswered in their proper places I minde not therefore to follow Master Stapletons vaine that saith Decies repeâ—…ta placebunt to spende the time and trouble the Reader more than néedes in answering to them here that are to be answered in their places seuerally and are already many of them noted before in his Common places The effect and conclusion of this preface in the ende is this That the Bishop must néedes make a full reioynder A full reioynder I say saith he and perfect to all and euery parte of this reply and put in Master Stapletonâ—… whole answere not omitting any one line or sentence either of the text or of the margine or els the truth is not on the Bishops side or els he waÌ„teth learnyng or els he buildeth on no good fundation nor the cause he groundeth on is sure or els all men vvill laugh him to scorne for his faire piece of vvorke so shamefully broken of or els M. Feckenhams scruples are most learned and inuincible reasons or els the othe can not be takeÌ„ with out manifest periurie or els Master Horne must retract his most haighnouse heresies or els which I should haue set before all that the B. hath saide is but vvoordes of course to saue his poore honestie and but waltham talke or els as he obiecteth foolishnesse to the B. so M. Stapleton may proue as wise as walthams calfe and thus as he saith to the B. for this time I take my leaue of you Vale resipisce so may I for this your first Preface take my leaue of you Master Stapleton Uale sape ⧠To Master Stapletons seconde Preface THe seconde Preface is directed to the Reader and is coÌ„triued in thrée partes The first sheweth the reasons why he tooke vppon him to answere the Bishop The second how by what order he procéedeth in his answere The thirde is an earnest admonition
other I build this argument euen according to your owne definition of a supreme gouernour and master Feckenhams offer A supreme gouernour is he say you that hath the chiefe gouernment of the thing gouerned in those actions that belong to the ende wherevnto the gouernor tendeth But the actions of Ecclesiasticall persons ouer whome the Prince is supreme gouernour as master Feckenham hath graunted doe belong properly to the ende wherevnto the Prince tendeth to wete not onelye to mainteyne the common peace and tranquilitie but also to sée that Gods religion and seruice be purely and syncerely had and kept amongst the subiects Ergo In these actions the prince is supreme gouernour and so by consequence in all causes and actions ecclesiasticall To proue the minor first that all the trauayle of all godly Preachers in the worlde is to this ende is playne and manifest That this is also the chiefe ende of the Princes gouernement both your selfe master Stapleten at length haue confessed centrarie to your former heathen limitation and also the verye heathen and prophane wryters themselues so well as Christian haue acknowledged Wherein master Stapleton both sheweth his great follie in reasoning that heathen Princes did not regarde religion Ergo they ought not especially to haue regarded it and also bewrayed his ignorance in the antecedent of this his vaine reason for the heathen though they erred in mistaking religion yet they knewe and taught that it was an especiall care and ende of the Princes gouernment I speake not howe Plato in his bookes de rep legib reckoneth the care of Religion to be a chiefe ende of theyr authoritie And yet will I note two sentences out of Aristotle whome to denie your Sorbonistes make more than petit heresie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the other Cityes the sacryfices are left onely to the Kinges And agayne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For the Capitaine was â—…oth King and Iudge and Lorde of the deuine matters And to proue this by the storyes of heathen Princes Numa Pompilius hath his chiefest commendation not so muche for making ciuill lawes and pollicies to the Romaynes as for his lawes about theyr religion theyr Priestes theyr Nunnes theyr Sacrifices The Magistrates of Athens did sitte in iudgement and condemned Socrates when Anitus and Melitus accused him for false religion The Romaine Princes them selues woulde labour principally for the office of the chiefe Bishoppe whiche terme Pontifex Maximâ—… the Bishoppe of Rome nowe chalengeth Tiberius promoted to the Senate of Rome as to those that had the care and gouernement of theyr religion that Christ might be accounted among theyr Gods. Yea in the Scripture is declared that Nabuchaâ—…nezar the King of Babylon an Heathen Prince and vtterly destitute of the truthe before God gaue him some sparâ—…kes thereof yet made hée a lawe of worshipping hys owne Image And King Darius of Persia made a decrée that none shoulde worship God in certayne dayes In all which matters although these heathen Princes crred from the truth yet they thought that religion which they mistooke for truth to be a principall part belonging to their gouernment Although therefore master Stapleton ye doe great iniurie to Christian Princes to make their state common with the Paganes yet do you more iniurie herein to them than the heathen did to their heathen princes Was it lawfull for them in their heathen gouernment to haue so especiall a care aboute their heathen and false religion and is it not lawfull for godly Christian Princes to haue the like or more aboute Chrystes true Religion Is the ende of their gouernment common to both alyke as ye say and yet the Heathens stretched further than doeth the Christian Princes Iohannes de Parisus affirmeth that this is a false supposition of yours Master Stapleton Quod potest as regalâ—… c. That the kingly power is corporall and not spirituall That the Kingly power hath the cure of the bodie and and not of the soules Sithe it was ordeyned to the common profite of the Citizens not euery profite but that profite which is to liue according to vertue Herevpon sayth the Philosopher in the Ethikes that the intention of the lawmaker is to make men good and to enduce them to vertue And also in the Politykes he sayth that as the soule is better than the bodie so a lawmaker is better than a Physition bicause the lawmaker hath care for the soules and a Physition for the bodie Nowe as the Philosophers ascribed this ende in the Heathens false religion in vertues of lyfe and care of the soule to the gouernement of Heathen Princes Doth not Saint Paule shewe as muche and more trowe you for the ende of Christian Princes gouernement in these thinges Ut 〈◊〉 tranquillam vitam degamus in omni pietate honestate That we may leade sayth he a quiet and peaceable life in al godlinesse and honestie Was this no further master Stapleton than safetie quietnesse worldly wealth aboundance and prosperous maintenance Did the great Constantine stretche the ende of his gouernment no further when he sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 debere ante omnta scopum esse â—…udicaus c. I iudged that this oughte before all other thinges to be my scope that among the most holye multitudes of the Catholike Churche one fayth and syncere charitie and godlinesse agreeing togither towardes almightie God might be conserued Did the whole assemblye of Byshoppes in the first generall Councell at Constantinople limitte no further the endes of Theodosius gouernment when they confessed that God instituit imperiuâ—… Theodosâ—… ad communempacem ecclesiarum sanae fidâ—… confirmationem God did orday ne the gouernement of Theodosius for the common peace of the Churches and the confirmation of the sounde fayth Did Saint Augustine beléeue that Princes gouernement reached no further when he sayde Reges in terris seruiunt Christo faciendo legeâ—… pro Christo Kinges in the earth doe serue Christe in making lawes for Christe Did Iustinian suppose hys authoritie tended no further when he wrote Legum Authoritas diuinas humanas res bene disposuit The authoritie of the lawes hath well disposed both the deuine and humaine matters Did the mâ—…ste Christian King of Spaine Richaredus thinke that the ende of hys gouernement stretched no further when he sayde openly in the thirde Councell at Tolet before all the Bishoppes there assembled Quanto subditorum gloria Regali extolliâ—…r tanto prouidi esse debemus in his quae ad Deum sunt c Howe muche more we bee exalted in royall glorie ouer our subieâ—…es so muche more ought wee to bee carefull in those matters that appertayne to God eyther to augment our owne hope or else to looke to the profite of the people committed to vs of god And as ye see me in verie deede inslamed wyth the feruencie of fayth God hath styrred mee vp to this ende that the obstinacie of
any of those foure meanes and when he hath so proued the same by suche examples as first with al shiftes ye labour to answere and when ye can not answere to any purpose will ye now at length come in crying with an humaine lawiers shift against the examples of Gods eternall worde say legibus non exemplis iudicatur men muste iudge by law and not by examples is this your indifferent dealing M. St But of what opinioÌ„ I pray you be you that dare reiect the ensamples conteined in the holy scripture make a difference betwéene them and rules do ye lyken them to other worldly examples are they not also rules if they be examples of godly men for vs to folow if they be examples of wicked men for vs to flée Doth not S. Paule so teache vs after he had cited many examples of the olde Testament saying Hâ—…c autem omma in figura illis contigebant c. All these things hapned to them for ensamples and are written to admonishe vs vpon whome the endes of the worlde are come Thus maketh he rules of these examples to be ware the like And your selfe that héere refuse them if this or any other ensamples should neuer so little sée me â—…o serue your turne or may with any countenance of probabilitie be wrested to it there by and by ye will be iudged by ensamples and maruellous eloquently dilate them omitting nothing that might eache forwarde your cause yea though in steade of an example of the scripture it be but a tale of your golden lying legende This is afterward in all your Popish historiographers your common fashion as the Reader shall perceyue And héere ye will not in any wise the matter to be iudged by examples of the Scripture For then it were to euident by many and manyfest examples the iudgement would goe agaynst you The examples of Gods worde woulde soone ouerthrow you and therfore you playnly refuse nowe at the length to be iudged by them But to bleare the simples eyes ye alleage that extraordinarie doings enforce no ordinary prescription or rule As who say the byshop alleaged suche doings of Mases as were extraordinary and not rather suche his doings as other godly princes did besides him the like it is your selfe M. St. that recken vp his prophecies his making speciall lawes appoynted of God and other his extraordinary gifts doings and not the bishop And therfore this is but one of your ordinary shiftes vnder the pretence of extraordinarie doings to denie flatly in the end al exaÌ„ples brought against you and say men must not iudge by examples But wherby wil ye be iudged then by the rule say you of the chapter going before that the Priests the iudges iudgement in doubtful cases without whies and what 's must absolutely be obeyed vpon payne of death By this rule of the lawe you muste measure all the examples following of Kinges and Princes vnder this lawe If this be your rule M. Stap. this is ruled ouer alreadie Which besides that it hath shewed many of your impudent falshods in belying and wresting the place so it be wrayeth also your extreme folly ignorance maliciousnesse and arrogancie besides the weakenesse yea and desperation of your whole cause to flée from examples and depende on this sentence First this rule was but the Iudiciall lawe of the Iewes and so it toucheth not vs Secondly the cases mentioned in this rule were not matters of religion but ciuill cases of strife betwéene neighbour and neighbour and therfore the rule of that lawe was no absolute rule in all cases to them or is any rule at all in any case to vs and is bothe to them and vs manyfestly wrested of you to all cases of religion and therefore in this controuersie of all spirituall or ecclesiasticall matters is alleaged out of place and season Thirdly the doing herein appertayned not to the Priests alone but the sitting and determination of the truthe of the doubt to them and the ratifying decrée to the Iudge or Prince Fourthly it was not absolutely done without whies and what 's as you pretende but that euen by your owne popishe doctours mindes men might not onely haue asked why and what but vtterly haue refused it had it bene not according to the lawe But to beare men in hande as the Papistes would that the Crowe is white and we muste not say the contrarie bicause as the Pharisies saide we haue a lawe and by that lawe he ought to dye so sayth M. Stap. we haue a rule and by this rule ye muste obey the Priestes sentence in all doubtes whatsoeuer he sayth without any whies and what 's therto And whatsoeuer examples ye haue to alleage they must all be measured and squared by our rule otherwise ye worke vnskilfully and vnorderly making of the lawe of God Lesbiam regulam a rule to bowe euery way that ye would haue it But who are those that make of the lawe of God Lesbiam regulam to runne on foure whéeles to euery tropologicall anagogicall mysticall and morall sense that ye liste to applie it who it is that by this rule would make the manifest words of Moses Lesbiam regulam applying them backewarde and forwarde as he liste and wresteth Christ to Moyses and would rule Christ vnder Moyses ruler who it is that would bring all examples to one rule and so make his owne rule Lesbiam regulam also who they be that call the scripture not onely Lesbiam regulam but besides giue it other foule and shamefull tearmes I trust master Stapleton you are not ignorant But euer ye were best to obiect that to vs wherein ye are culpable most your selfe for thus it becommeth an impudent man in a desperate cause to do And so yelustily knit vp the matter that This one answere might well serue for all the kings doings now following sauing that I will say you particulerly descende to euery one and so for euery one say somewhat What somewhat ye will say to other ensamples we shall then sée somewhat as ye descende vnto them and somwhat may we sée alreadie by this whereby ye count ye haue answered all to come The somewhat and summe of this great answere is this A canceled rule perteyning nothing to Christian men to follow nor being euer of any spirituall matters but indiciall and ciuill cases for the time being wherein the Prince had as much to doe or more than the Priests is a fitte rule and absolute in all ecclesiasticall and religion cases to rule ouer all Christian Kings Quéenes and Princes vppon paine of death to be ruled by popishe priestes but an expresse ensample of a most godly Prince to set forth order and direct Gods true religion with great regarde and care is no fitte ensample for Christian Princes to follow And the reason is bicause that Prince had besides that he was a Prince some especiall prerogatiues and other excellent giftes of god Here
priests and Leuites in their offices and functions ecclesiasticall in appoynting howe the Arke shoulde be borne For sacrifising and blessing for ordeining Psalmes singers instruments officers and all other things for the setting foorthe of the diuine seruice and Gods true religion Whiche argueth that he was their supreme gouernour in all ecclesiasticall causes Master Stap. first for a briefe summarie answere to these doings of Dauid clappeth downe this marginal note Dauid in all these matters determined no doctrine nor altered any religion agaynst the Priestes willes of his owne supreme authoritie This note is bothe malicious and slaunderous as though we ascribed to the Quéenes Maiestie or she tooke vpon hir such authoritie and that of hir owne sway and wil against all hir Clergies minde and counsell to determine and alter what religion pleaseth or displeaseth hir This is the Popes clayme and tyrannie and not oure Princes or any other godly Princes dooing And yet this note is partly false for king Dauid agaynst the will of hys idle Priestes caused the misordering of the Arke to be reformed And did many other thinges about Religion to the which the Priests obeyed And determined doctrine also euen by master Stapl. owne confession in this Chapter The first argument that master Stapl. maketh is this Bothe M. Dorman and M. D. Harding affyrme that the proceedings of king Dauid are nothing preiudiciall to the ecclesiasticall authoritie in redressing of disorders before committed or doing suche thinges as are heere rehearsed Ergo They inferre no supreme gouernment ouer causes ecclesiasticall This argument standeth altogither vpon the authoritie of his good masters M. Dorman and M. D. Harding from whome he boroweth his stuffe For the moste of his owne surplusage is but his common places of descant on them And as they be so great in his bookes so he reasoneth as Pythagoras schollers had wont to reason of their master 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he sayde so Ergo it is so and thus argueth M. Stap. Bothe M. Dorman and M. D. Harding affirme it Ergo it is true But what do they affirme That the proceedings of king Dauid in redressing disorders before committed or doing suche things as heere are rehearsed are nothing preiudiciall to the ecclesiasticall authoritie Why M. Stap. who sayth against them or you herein king Dauids procéedings in deede were nothing preiudicial to the ecclesiasticall authoritie of persons ecclesiasticall they executed all their functions still belonging to their authoritie And bicause his procéedings in redressing suche disorders and all other things that he did declare moste plainly his supreme gouernement in setting foorthe and directing Gods true religion and yet were no preiudice to the Priests ecclesiasticall authoritie it followeth ther vpon that the supreme gouernment in setting foorth Gods true religion in correcting repressing ecclesiastical disorders in reducing and directing good orders and al other doings here rehearsed that ye confesse king Dauid did are no parte of the Priestes ecclesiasticall authoritie for then in doing them he should haue done things preiudicial therevnto and therfore they are no parts therof but of king Dauids royal authoritie And this while fondly ye woulde as it were ouerpresse vs with suche great mens authoritie as is M. Dorman M. D. Harding or euer ye be aware ye make them flatly giue verdite agaynst you with vs A Gods name bring their authoritie so agaynst vs as oft as ye wil neither M. Dorman nor M. D. Harding will giue ye great thanks therfore But for all this ye will bring vs more of D. Hardings stuffe As master D. Harding say you noteth king Dauids proceedings in redressing disorders before committed or doing suche things as are heere rehearsed do no more employ a supremacie in him then the reformation of religion made by Queene Mary But that ye wot well employeth in hir no suche supremacie Ergo No more do those procéedings in him This argument staÌ„deth wholly vpoÌ„ his M. D. Hardings authoritie alone bicause he hath noted that the one dyd no more than the other that their doings were alike héerein But the doings of the one inferre no supremacie Ergo the others neither But if we might be so bolde as to denie this your maior or rather your maxima or principle that ye build vpon of D. Hardings comparison in making king Dauids doings to be none other but such as were Quéene Maries Where were then your argument M. St ye talked righte now of Impar congressus Achilli Troilus the match betwene Troilus Achilles was vneueÌ„ but here is a gret deale more inferiour match betwéene K. Dauid Q. Mary Yea their doings were so little alike that they were cleane contrarie For although she were a princesse of famous memorie yet herein your popish Prelates made hir so beléeue them that she durst not redresse disorders in the Clergie at al but suffred the Pope and his prelates to reduce their false religion Nor she retayned the estate that belonged to hir of supreme gouernment but vtterly renounced it And therfore that reformation or rather deformation was not made at all by hir nor in hir name but by the Pope and his Popelings she only permitting it â–ª But if ye meane as ye speake that it was made by hiâ—… in dâ—…de as your Massers words are Queene Mary did it by the meanes of the Priest so that she was the doer and they were but the mâ—…anes she was the maker and they but hir instruments then your similitude goeth agaynst you and proueth a supremacie in hir as was in Dauid But ye speake colorably to make in suche a 〈◊〉 some proportion in speeche of a similitude For in very déede what soeuer ye say the matter went so that your popishe byshops and priestes were the doers of all And she good Lady was but your instrument and meane whereby ye killed Christ in his members as did the high priestes kill Christ in his body vnder Pontius Pilate I speake not to compare hir béeing hir selfe a noble Christian Prince to him béeing a heathen tyrant but to shewe how you abused hiâ—… authoritie as the Iewes did his But as for king Dauid as he did those things in redressing disorders and all other noted by the Bishop whiche your selfe can not denie so he was the principall in the dooing of them and he reformed euen the Priestes them selues And thoughe in some thinges he vsed the Priestes as meanes yet what dothe this infringe his supreme authoritie and not rather proue it And thus your other argument from D. Hardinges authoritie by D. Hardinges owne confession that they were but the meanes and king Dauid and Quéene Mary the doers of suche ecclesiasticall matters once agayne maketh quite agaynst you and your master D. Harding also and establisheth the Princes supreme gouernement ouer the priests and all I areade ye beware since ye stande so muche vpon your masters woordes héerein that if ye alleage hys authoritie any more
suum sub manu Aaron patris eorum sicut praeceperat dominus deus Israel These are theyr courses after their ministeries to enter into the house of the Lorde and according to theyr manner be vnder the hande of Aaron their father as the Lorde God of Israel hath commaunded Which last wordes ye beginne withall and ioyne them to the first parte as thoughe the Lordes commaundement had béene of Dauids appoyntment where it was onely of the obedience of all the Tribe of Leuie to be vnder Aaron and his successors in the ministerie which in deede was Gods statte commaundement But the appoynting of the courses to those mencioned in that place was Dauids commaundement euen as your selfe doe say it was King Dauids appoyntment And the Chapter before of the lyke argument playnlye sayeth Iuxta pracepta quoquè Dauid 〈◊〉 c. And according to the last commaundements of Dauid the Leuites were numbered from twentie yeare and vpwarde to wayte vnder the hande of the sonnes of Aaron in the seruice of the house of the Lorde But admit that these wordes Sicut praeceperat c. as god had commaunded be to be ment as you pretend of a speciall coÌ„maundement to Dauid so to dispose those courses as ye expound it he did nothing without gods coÌ„maundement Is this again I pray you any argumeÌ„t to improue his supreme authority next vnder god bicause he did al things sicut praeceperat dominus as the lord had coÌ„maundéd then by this same rule yourpriest should not haue the supremacie neither for I am sure he had no further priuiledge to do against or beyond Gods coÌ„maundement no more than Dauid had It is your Pope that thus stretcheth his claime to do beyonde all Gods forvoade and contrarie to Gods commaundement but little or nothing sicut praeceperat dominus deuâ—… Israel as the Lord God of Israel hath coÌ„maunded As for the Quéenes Maiestie hath not done or doth any thing more than Dauid did which is sicut praeceperat c. as God hath commaunded hir to do And syth Gods commaundement vnto Dauid stretcheth to the placing appointing both aboue vnder in their orders of sacrifices eueÌ„ of all the leuiticall priesâ—…es it strengthneth hir cause the more that she hath not onely the bare example of King Dauid but also the warrant of Gods commaundement for the supreme gouernement of all hir clergie to place them in their seuerall functions Secondly ye say ye haue to note that king Dauid did make appoyntment vnto them of no straunge or new order to be taken in religion but that they should serue God in the temple iuxta ritum suum after their owne vsage custome or maner before time vsed Secondly we note to you againe M. St. that you interprete his sayings ambiguously and applie it maliciously Ambiguously bicause thoughe Dauid neyther made any straunge or newe order to be taken in Religion nor yet in their vsage custom or maner of their ceremonies commaunded of god and so vsed before his time but saw euery thing dutifully obserued both sicut praeceperat dominus iuxta ritum suum as the Lord had coÌ„manded after their owne order yet in their courses and in other circumstances diuers of his orders were new and strange vnto them and of his owne appoyntment And diuers ceremonies that were iuxta ritum suum according to their own order hauing been neglected by the priests and become straunge vnto them those he redressed iuxta ritum suum according to their own order and sicut praeceperat dominus as the Lorde had commaunded But what serueth this howe soeuer ye expounde it to infringe any supreme gouernement in king Dauid bicause the Prince is bounde not to alter the Priestes rites and ceremonies béeing appoynted of God Ergo he is not supreme gouernour in séeing them kéept accordingly might ye not rather argue contrarywise The prince is bound not to alter religion nor those orders that God hath ordeyned bringing in straunge and new Ergo he is bound to ouersée care and prouide that those orders be onely kept and none other brought in And if princes had alwayes looked to this their duetie more narrowly than they haue done then had not your Pope and popishe Prelates broughte in so many vayne traditions false doctrines and superstitious ceremonies as they haue neither iuxta ordinem suum according to their owne order nor sicut praceperat dominus as the Lord commaunded On the other part this your application is a malicious slaunder to the Q. highnesse For she hath not made or appointed to be receiued any strange or new order in religion but reuoked the olde primatiue order of religion ordeined of Christ and hath appoynted the ministers of God to do their dueties secundum ritum suum according to their owne order sicut praeceperat dominus as our sauiour Christ by him selfe and his Apostles hath prescribed to them It is your Pope and Papall Church that offreth strange fire to God that hath appoynted erected those strange and newe orders in religion and therfore hir maiestie hath worthily abolished all those false priests with their strange and new orders and all their false worship of God and in that hir highnesse thus doth she sheweth hir selfe to follow Dauids eâ—…sample like a godly supreme gouernour Thirdly and lastly say you king Dauids appoyntment was that they should serue in the house of God sub manu Aaron patris corum as vnder the spirituall gouernement of their father Aaron and his successors the high Priests Héere agayne to the shew of some aduauntage ye translate sub manu which is vnder the hande importing attendant at hande in their ministerie to the high Priest vnder the spirituall gouernement as thoughe they were exempted from the kings gouernement and so you make your conclusion saying The which words of the Scripture do so well and clearely expresse that king Dauid did not take vpon him any spirituall gouernment in the house of god c. This conclusion is captious and yet not to the purpose There is a difference betwéene spirituall gouernment and gouernment ouer spirituall â—…cclesiasticall matters This ye should conclude not that if ye will confute the bishop And this gouernment ouer spirituall matters tooke Dauid on him the other that is the spirituall gouernment he left entier vnto the Priests without any preiudice to their ecclesiasticall authoritie as ye graunted before And as Dauid therin did so doth the Quéenes Maiestie nowe But what maketh this agaynst king Dauids supreme gouernment that the inferior priests Leuites in their ministeries offices were by the kings appoyntment vnder the hande or spirituall gouernment of their spirituall father Aaron and his successors the high priests as you translate the text Is it not also the Q. Maiesties appoyntment that the inferiour Ministers should serue in their functions vnder the spiritual gouernment of their bishops and bicause it is hir
nowe But all godly Princes ought so to do as Iosaphat did in directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo the Quéenes Maiestie doth now as all godly Princes ought to do To proue that she doth as did king Iosaphat your selfe confesse that he reformed religion and was carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters But the Queenes Maiesties clayme is none other herein but this to reforme religion and to be carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo King Iosaphats doings and hirs are not vnlike But this importeth in hir a supreme gouernment Ergo King Iosaphats example hitteth home the Butte and is a fitte patterne to hir and all godly Princes of supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Here séeing that for fashions sake where ye durst not denie the manifest truth ye haue graunted so much that in déede ye haue graunted all ye would now restraine your graunt and say it was conditionall that though all Princes may reforme religion and with care and diligence direct all ecclesiasticall matters yet they must do it in suche sort as Iosaphat did and therefore leauing your simple and generall termes of reformation and direction by godlye Princes yée will haue them perticulerly leueled by that sort that Iosaphat did them Whiche as we gladly graunt you in all thinges that Iosaphat did well and godly as were the moste of his doings and in al that which the Bishoppe rehearseth yet in some thinges Princes muste not doe in that sort but go beyonde him For althoughe for the moste part he did those thinges Quae placâ—…ta erant domino That were acceptable to the Lorde 〈◊〉 en excelsa non abstulit Notwithstanding he tooke not away the high places wherein godly princes muste do after a more zealous sort than Iosaphat did As for all those things that the Bishop citeth sée that ye stand to your graunt made vnto vs that Iosaphat reformed religion and vsed care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters and then that godly princes may at this day do all the same And feare ye not but we will also graunt to you and not starte therefrom that they may reforme religion and directe ecclesiasticall matters in such sort as Iosaphat did And so excepte ye be disposed to quarell or will falsefie the sorte and manner of Iosaphats or the Quenes Highnesse doings I trust we shall anon agree herein They may do it say you in such sort as Iosaphat did that is to reforme religion by the priests First this is very subtilly spoken master Stapleton by the priests if ye meane by the aduise or godly counsell of the prestes true it is so might king Iosaphat well haue done If ye meane by the authoritie and commaundemente of the priestes then is it false nor you can euer proue that Iosaphat did it by theyr commaundement and authoritie but they contrarywise by his Nowe in suche sort as Iosaphat did hath the Quéenes Maiestie done and this proueth bothe their supremacies herein Not to enact say you a new religion which the priestes of force shall sweare vnto Indéede this did not Iosaphat no more hath the Quéenes Maiestie done it is but your surmised sclander Item to suffer the priests to iudge in controuersies of religion not to make the decision of suche things a parliamente matter This latter parte of your sentence is agayne but youre manifest sclander to suffer the priestes to iudge in controuersies of religion after the rule of Gods word and not after their owne pleasures in suche sorte Iosaphat not onely suffred but ordeyned them commanded and ouersaw them so to do and so doth the Quéenes maiestie And this sufferance commaundement and ouersight argueth their chiefe authorities Item not to prescribe a newe forme order in ecclesiasticall causes but to see that according to the lawes of the church before made the religion be set forthe as Iosaphat procuâ—…ed the obseruation of the old religion appointed in the lawe of Moyses And euen thus and none otherwise hath the Quéenes Maiestie procured the obseruation of the old religion of Iesus Christ whome Moyses prefigured and the orders of the apostles and most auncient fathers after them to be restored remouing as Iosaphat did all other newe formes and orders of ecclesiasticall abuses And this restoring and procuring of the aunciente religion and ceremonies the suppressing and abolishing of new is againe in both these princes a good argument of their supreme gouernement Briefly say you that he do all this as an aduocate defender and son of the Churche with the authoritie and aduice of the cleargie so Iosaphat furdered religion not otherwise Your word aduocate how it came vp is declared already but neither aduocate defender sonne or daughter herein are any thing contrary to supreme gouernour But where ye adde al these words aduocate defender and sonne to the prince and to the cleargy authoritie aduice this sheweth your subtile deuise to deceyue princes with youre paynted termes But princes begin to waxe wise and learned as Dauid exhorted them and perceaue howe ye haue foaded them with these names and stiles that were but nomen sine re a bare name without any matter for the authoritie and aduice ye reserued to your selues The princes to whome ye gaue these gay titles had neither authoritie nor might giue their aduice according as Hosius woulde not haue them so much as to talke of matters of religion much lesse to reforme religion to directe ecclesiasticall matters with care and diligence as before ye graunted And nowe to eate againe your worde ye woulde haue them be carefull and diligent without aduice reforme and direct without authoritie of their owne except onely the clergies aduice and authoritie Thinke ye Iosaphat did so not otherwise as ye sayâ—… ye may well tell vs so but the Scripture telleth vs otherwise howe he gaue aduice to the Clergie and by his authoritie directed them though I denie not he might vse their aduice and admitte their authoritie to yet the supreme authoritie apperteyned vnto him Not say you as a supreme absolute gouernour contrary to the vniforme consent of the whole clergie in full conuocation yea and of all the Bishops at once This worde absolute is but your absolute and malicious slaunder M. Stap. Such absolute supreme gouernment did your Pope vsurpe as sayth Franciscus de Ripa that the Popes power is absolute and that he may do what he will. As Baldus in the proheme of the decrées alleageth that his power is absolute from all bondes and from all rule of restraint And that we must beléeue him absolutely as Marcus Mantua and Pope Boniface himselfe affirmeth Thus doth not the Quéenes maiestie no more did king Iosaphat and therefore I inferre the conclusion that the Queenes Maiestie doth all these things in such sort as losaphat did them excepting these quarelous slaunders which are your owne put them vp in your purse agayne master Stapleton and
commaunded and prescribed vnto the chiefe priests what fourme and order they should obserue in ecclesiasticall causes and controuersies of religion Is not this then your own abhomination and contradiction â—…atly to say here is no fourme or order prescribed and that the Bishop belieth Gods holy woorde which in one that goeth for a student of Diuinitie to sclaunder one that goeth for a Bishop what can be done more malapertly But as ye thus sawfely misuse your better so full fondly and malitionsly do yâ—… gather that thereon then the which the Bishop minded nothing lesse nor can instly be gathered thereupon Yâ—… say the Bishop writeth thus to make folke weene that religion proceded then by way of commission from the Prince onely This is your owne spitefull sclander M. Stapl. not onely on the Bishop but on the Quéenes Maiestie your argument is this He prescribed them a fourme and order to obserue in coÌ„trouersies of Religion Ergo He attempted to make Religion proceede by way of commission from the Prince onely This is a false and maâ—…itions collection M. Stapl. from the fourme and order of athing to the thing it selfe It is your holy father the Pope to whom ye may obiect this conclusion he maâ—…eth religion to depende on him and to proceede from him onely â–ª by his Commissions and Legacies â—… latere We-acknowledge all true religion to procéede onely from God the father through Iesus Christ his sonne by the insâ—…ctioÌ„ of the holy ghost in the mouth of the Patriarches Prophets and Apostles And from the Prince to procéede onely such godly orders and formes of directing and setting foorth that true religion as he by the notable examples of these godly Kinges shall finde out paterns most expedient for him and his people to gouerne and order them of what â—…state soeuer they be in that true religion and all other ecclesiastical causes belonging thereto So did Iosaphat then so doth the Quéenes Maiestie now FroÌ„ whose authoritie next â—…nder â–ª God the order direction procéeded though the religioÌ„ procéeded not from them but altogither from God. Nay say you king â–ª Iosaphats dealings were rather with 〈◊〉 persoâ—… thâ—…n with matters ecclesiasticall This was M. FeckeÌ„hams former shifte and many proper ensamples and similitudes you also vsed thereon to dally about the 〈◊〉 of the ecclesiasticall person but not in ecclesiastical matters But those were but séely shifts and euer turned against your selfe in the ende And therefore ye darâ—… not abide by this shifte but within a litle while after yea euen in this Chapter ye recant and denie the obedience of the persons and all And what hath bene your practise any other than cleane to ridde your selues out of al obedience from the Princes authoritie ye knowe your Pope hath bene vnder the Emperour ere now but vnder what Princes obedience euen for his person will ye confesse your Pope at this day to be And do not all the packe of the popishe Priestes as his chickens clâ—…cke vnder his winges and exempt euen their persons also from the dutifull obedience they owe to their naturall soueraignes in so much that where the Popes primacie is admitted Princes can not by any of their laweâ—… â–ª fasten any condigne punishement vppon any ecclesiasticall persons â–ª what mischiefe soeuer they committe and all bicause the ecclesiasticall persons were priuileged and exempted from their Princes authoritie Wherein your generation dealt surely for themselues that hauing graunted them an inche got an elle For seing that if they should graunt againe the obedience of the person the cause and all would at last returne to his old master the Prince as it did before but you thinke your selfe sure inough if ye graunt that Iosaphat dealed with ecclesiasticall persons but not with their matters As ye shifted of the matter before that the Prince dealeth with a Bishop for his homage baronie and temporalties but not otherwise Thinke ye M. Stapl. and tell me on your fidelitie did Iosaphat meddle with the high Priestes and all other of the Clergie so well as his temporaltie onely in respecte of their persons or in respecte of their reuenues and linings vnder him or chiefly in any of these respectes did he thus commaunde them and deale with them or not rather and most of all in respect of refourming abuses in religion and setting in order all ecclesiasticall causes he appointed not onely the persons but the places where the persons shoulde execute their offices and what matters these and those persons shoulde entreate vppon and how they shoulde do them as your selfe haue confessed the manner And least we should thinke he â—…ubbered ouer the matter as ye say many good and godly princes among the Christians also haue charged their Bishops and clergie to see diligently vnto their flockes and charges Ye say true M. Stapleton many godly Princes haue thus done to your further confutation in this issue But you meane they haue onely giuen them a generall exhortation and yet neuerthelesse lefte the matter wholly in their Clergies hands not medling themselues therewith Least ye should thinke that Iosaphat did it thus sclenderly not that his chiefe charge of ouersight lay thereon not onely of them all generally but particulerly in euery kinde of matter the holy ghost hath penned out how precisely he went to worke that rather hauing his care about the matters then the persons For this was his principal marke care not so much that the person might sit in authoritie as that the matter might wisely and truly be iudged and discerned and therfore saith the text In Hierusalem quoque constituit Iosaphat Leuitas sacerdotes principes familiaruÌ„ ex Israel vt iudicium causam domini Iudicarent habitatoribus eius c. Praecepitque eis c. And Iosaphat appointed in Ierusalem Leuites and Priests and families of Israell that they might giue iudgement and iudge the cause of the Lorde to the inhabitants thereof c. And he coÌ„maunded them saying Thus shall ye do in the feare of the Lord faithfully and with a perfecte harte and in euery cause that shall come vnto you of your brethren that dwell in their Cities betweene bloud and bloud betweene lawe and precepte statutes and iudgements ye shall iudge them and admonish them c. Whervpon saith Lyra Hic ordinatur regimeâ—â— populi in arduis causis c. Here is ordeyned the gouernment of the people in difficult causes which could not well be cutte of without recourse had to Ierusalem according to that which is coÌ„maunded Deuter. 17. Where it is saide if thou shalt perceyue the iudgement before thee to be difficult and doubtfull arise and get thee vp to the place which the Lord shall choose c. And therefore Iosaphat appointed iudges there to determine such difficult matters Wherefore it followeth euery cause which commeth vnto you c. VVheresoeuer the question is if it be of the lawe so
your argument néede not be plucked downe with idols for it would fall downrighte of it selfe what a kinde of reasoning call ye this to take that for graunted and out of all doubt true that is chiefly denyed and is most starke false But what soeuer our doctrine is do those your Princes plucke it downe by their kingly authoritie or by your false suggestions and commaundements or suffer you their kingly authoritie to pul downe set vp or meddle any thing at all with one iote of doctrine true or false more or lesse otherwise than you by your priestly authoritie will commaund appoynt direct them What babble ye then of their kingly authoritie in pulling downe such idols of ours as ye say where both there is neither any Idols at all and you giue them be there or be there not no authoritie kingly nor vnkingly at all but onely make them your seruitours I mighte say for your vnworthie vsage of them your Butchers slaughtermen at your commaundement to kill and make hauocke in the congregation of Christ destroying his liuely Images and members for the maintenance of your dead Images most grosse Idolatrie And yet ye obiect Idolatrie to vs which is not to espie a mote but to quarrell at a mote in your brothers eie where none is and not to see the great beame or rather a number of beames postes stones stockes infinit Idols in your owne eyes and in the sight of all the worlde Can your Princes see to plucke out so small a mote in our eyes yea so small to your eyes that ye are fame to call it inuisible or spirituall Idolatrie and yet falsely charge vs therin also can not sée to pull out of their owne eies those open manifest Idolatries that the Popish Church hath set vp would ye haue vs thinke those princes to be thus blind Surely if some of theÌ„ be yet many of them haue séene and do sée such inckling that ye had néede to beware betymes what kingly authoritie ye geue them in plucking downe of Idols For shortly they will not onely pull downe all your Idols but pul you downe also for wicked Idolaters asking Iosias pulled down suppressed al Idolatrie by his kingly authority And so by his example many good catholike princes indéede as ye say thanks be to God haue done do and God willing shal dayly more more suppresse pul downe the Idols that you and your brethren M. St. haue of long time set vp And in steede thereof by their kingly authoritie set vp the true worde and worship of God. And thus as did Iosias hath the Quéenes maiesties most noble Father Brother of famous memories done hiâ—… Highnesse after them whoÌ„ God continue prosper doth And as Iosias not onely pulled downe the Idols but also the houses and opeÌ„ maintenance of filthie fornication in the false Idolatrous priests in their geided chaplaines as Lyra sayth as he telleth how the Hebrues called them â—…diculas Mâ—…nachorum the celles of Monkes how he destroyed their Sodomitical priests and their coÌ„câ—…tines that weaued their hangings for their groues So do ought to do good catholike princes And so hath the Q Maiestie both suppressed the popish Idols abolished aâ—… maintenance dispensations of whores concubines other such vowed Stalions Sodomites pulled down the Monkish cels with their Nunnish weauers hath as did Iosias established the only worship of the liuing god the only veritie of gods most blessed word the holy ordinaÌ„ce of honorable chast matrimony And this hath she done by Gods coÌ„mandemeÌ„t by the hand of his prophets vnder God by hir royall or kingly authoritie for so may I cal it for al your petit quarels and therfore since she can ought to do these things as did Iosias by hir kingly authoritie it followeth hir kingly authoritie is a supreme authoritie ouer all hir subiects bishops and priests or any other so wel Clarke as Lay in suppressing al false religioÌ„ plucking it downe in setting vp establishing Gods true religion and al things ecclesiasticall belonging there vnto Now sayth M. St. to the bishops argumeÌ„t collecting his conclusions on the manyfest doings of all these Princes And ye haue hitherto brought nothing effectual to proue that the kings of Israel did so wherfore your coÌ„clusion that they did rule gouerne and direct the eccl. persons in all their functions in al maner causes of religion is an open notorious lie and the contrary is by vs auouched sufficiently proued by the authoritie of the olde Testament whereupon ye haue hitherto rested and setled your selfe Whether this bare saying on M. Stap. priestly authoritie without any further profe or improfe be any thing effectuall to proue that the kinges of Israell dyd not so and whether the Byshops conclusion of these tâ—…r open and notorious doings or M. Stap. deniall be an open and notorious lye let the indifferent reader marker of these kings doings hardly be the â—…pere But M. St. as though he had decided the matter already to the readers hand The contrary saith he is by vs auouched and sufficiently proued by the authoritie of the olde Testament That it is auouched M. St. and that full stoutly auouched the reader may soone perceiue But that this your auouching is sufficiently proued by the authoritie of the olde Testament woulde require a more sufficient proofe and authoritie than your so saying M. Stap. in the iudgment of any sufficient examiner and conferrer what you on the one parte out of the olde Testament hitherto haue alleaged for your priestes supreme gouernment and what the byshop hath alleaged for the Princes supreme guuernement bothe allegations and proues in their places are euident Commit them to the reader suspende your hastie and partiall iudgement least your sufficient proues be estéemed more vnsufficient The thirde parte of M. Stap. answere is prefixed with a marginall note saying It is heere declared that master Horne commeth nothing nye the principall question This declaration hath thrée partes First an exhortation to regarde the principall scope and issue of the matter Secondly a setting vp of eight or nyne new markes as the issue and principall matter in question Thirdly a number of outcries and exclamations that the byshop shooteth wide and commeth not néere the marke The first as ye say M. Sta. is a good admonition Necessarie it is that the Byshop haue before his eye the very state of the question which must be especially euer regarded of such as mynde not too loosely and altogither vnfruitfully imploy their owne labour and loose bothe their owne and the readers labour This is good counsell and ye often put the Byshop in minde of it but I pray you dothe it not comprehende your selfe or haue ye a Bull from the Pope to call vpon other and dispence with your selfe it may well be ye haue some especiall placard for ye
But followeth it thereon that they agnised him to bee their supreme heade or gouernour This woulde require to bée prooued with some better Logycke As for these examples argue all the contrary that though the Prinâ—…s agnised alway one to be the chiefe Priest and also agnised all other inferiour Priestes Leuites Porters Singers in theyr offices yet all those highe and lowe whatsoeuer acknowledged agayne the supreme gouernement of commaunding appoynting ordring directing and ouerseeing them to doe all their duties dutifully to appertayne not to themselues but to theyr soueraigne Princes And the Princes as theyr seuerall examples witnesse tooke it vppon them in commaunding appoynting placing and displacing all and euery one yea the highest Priest himselfe And therefore where ye say to the Bishop I pray you good M. Horne bring forth that king that did not agnise one supreme heade and chiefe iudge in all causes ecclesiasticall among the Iewes I meane the highe Priest wherein lyeth all our chiefe question Yee haue not yet done it nor neuer shall doe it And ye coulde shewe anie it were not worth the shewing For ye shoulde not shewe it in anie good King as beeing an open breache of Gods lawe giuen to him by Moses as this your doings are an open breache of Christ and his Churches lawe and giuen to vs in the newe Testament These be but your crakes and outfacings master Stapleton The Bishop hath done it euidently that ye require and the scripture is manifest in all these Kings ensamples Nor they were any wicked Kings nor breakers of Gods law giuen by Moses or any other But euen Moses and all the rest were mainteiners of Gods law giuen to them and therfore are worth the shewing Your conclusion that our doings are an open breache of Christ and his Churches lawe giuen to vs in the new Testament I maye well ouerpasse without aunswere dismissing it to your common place of slaunders not onely of vs but of Christ and his Churche and his newe Testament also till ye shewe in what place of the newe Testiment Christ and his Church whom ye ioyne togither in this law making did make and giue vs this law that either our godly Christian Princes should not haue this supreme gouernment ouer their dominions or that your Pope should haue it ouer all the vniuersall Churche And when ye haue proued this proue also this your first new marke to be the verie state and issue here in question betwene the Bishop and master Feckenham or else agnise with shame your selfe that ye runne at randon loosely and altogither vnfruitfully haue employed yours and your Readers labour for all so lyke a Faulconer ye crie marke marke neuer so muche Your first false marke béeing thus reared vppe yée sette vppe a seconde muche lesse lyke the issue betwéene them but much more lyke the malicious slaunders among you saying Againe what president haue ye shewed of any good King among the Iewes that with his laitie altered and abandoned the vsuall Religion a thousande yeares and vpwarde customably from age to age receyued and embraced and that the high Priest and the whole clergie gainsaying all such alterations If ye haue not shewed this ye haue strayed farre from the marke Whether this be the marke or no or whether maister Stapleton of purpose straggle from it the conference of the issue wyth this will soone declare there is no néede to fette the highe Priestes iudgement as in a doubtfull matter Euery childe maye sée not onely howe farre they differ but also what an heape of slaunders on a plumpe he burdeneth like an vngracious subiect his most gracious soueraigne withall As for the Quéenes Maiesties most godly doings are very well confirmed by these examples And in proufe thereof the Bishop euer kept him closely to hys marke that the supreme gouernment which hir Maiestie taketh on hir is none other but such as they before did take on them Hir highnesse hath abandoned olde inueterate errors crept in besides and contrary to the worde of God she saw the ensample in these godly Kings before hir whose doings therein she followed Hir highnesse hath by the aduice and instruction of hir godly learned Clergie reformed religion according to Gods word although the Popish clergie were negligent and gainesayde the same she sawe the ensample in these kings before hir how by their godly learned prophets aduice and instructions according to Gods word they reformed religion although the Priests Leuits were negligent or withstood the same And this hitteth home the marke Any such gouernment syth both their supreme gouernments be so like And therfore in that you charge hir maiestie otherwise is nothing â—…eare the marke but is your owne reprochfull and very trayterouâ—… slaunder The ioly number of a thousande yeares and vpwarde of your vsuall religion is but your common vaunte and what if I sayde your outfacing lie also to deceyue the simple with a countenance of antiquitie the noueltie and late hatching whereof is dayly the more ye striue the more discouered to be nothing so auncient as ye pretende of a thousande yeares and vpwarde Of which number the most part the originals béeing well boulted out may come backe againe halfe a thousande yeares and more downwarde with shame ynoughe But I sée master Stapleton ye haue hoysted vp your Religion so hie that it staggreth againe and higher for falling downeright ye can not get it It hath béene ye say the vsuall Religion a thousande yeares and vpwarde that is a fayre tyme master Stapleton God saue it But what meane ye by this indefinite terme vpwarde Meane you it hath continued a thousande yeares and a little more Alacke Master Stapleton I am sorie for it and for your paynes taking till your armes ake to lyft it vp so highe and yet it commes too too short to be any true Religion For if it be the true Religion of Iesus Christe whie say yee not boldely man it is the vsuall Religion of fifteene hundreth yeares and vpwarde But eyther your armes are too shorte or your heart fayles you to lifte it vpwarde so highe for then the worde of GOD woulde soone controll you and beate it downe agayne And therefore you are contente with a lower sayle to crake that your Religion is yet a thousande yeares olde and vpwarde But as that is a false crake so is it also a vayne crake and serues not the turne yea admitting it were so old as ye boast 1000 â–ª yeares and vpward yet ought it of all godly Princes to be remooued and pulled downe againe except it be the Religion of fiftene hundreth yeares and vpwarde Eâ—…amsi Angelus docuerit aliud Euangelium quà m quod accepistis anaâ—…hema sit Althoughe an Aungell from heauen should teache any other doctrine than you haue receyued let him be accursed The Religion that the Quéenes Maiestie hath set forth thankes be to God therefore is the religion of 1500. yeares and vpward
vpon thē selues to whō they properly appertayne who in deede denie both Chryst the head and Christ the body that is his catholike Church And that as the Donatistes secte was condemned by Constantine Honorius and other Emperours the highe kings of Christendome So haue they withall condemned you master Stapl. that followe the Donatistes and so may and ought all christian Princes the Emperour nowe whose highe kingdomes besides a bare name in any matter of Christianitie ye make nothing to pull downe suche vsurpers of their highe kingdomes and set vp true and godly ministers in their places to whome they might and ought to submitte their heades vnder their spirituall ministerie To the whiche sorte as is shewed playnely out of Chrisostome your Popishe Priesthoode is cleane contrarie And therefore to returne your wordes vpon your selfe Ye are they that cutte in sunder the vnitie and peace of Christes Churche and rebell agaynst the promises of his Gospell Which Gospell ye can not abyde should come to light and therefore the highe kinges of Christendome should remoue and condemne you Whiche is a better argumente than yours M. Stap. and is sufficient to inferre the supremacie of these highe Kings and Princes The. 23. Diuision THe Bishop in his diuision prosecuting still the wordes of S. Paule Rom. 13. proueth further out of Chrysostome and Eusebius that as the Prince is Gods minister so this ministerie consisteth not onely in ciuill and temporall but also in the well ordering of the Church matters and their diligent rule and care therein The effecte of his argument is this The Prince as Chrysostome sayth prepareth the mindes of many to be made more appliable to the doctrine of the worde and is the great lighte and true preacher and setter foorth of true godlynesse as Eusebius sayth Ergo His ministerie consisteth as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill causes The antecedent Eusebius proueth by the example of Constantine that his ministerie stretched to the setting foorth of godlynesse to al countreyes and that he preached God and not onely ciuil lawes by his Imperiall decrees and Proclamations And this he confirmeth by Constantines own confession that he taughte by his ministerie the religion and lawe of God that therby he caused the encrease of the true fayth And by the same put away and euerthrewe all the euils that pressed the worlde But the world in Constantines time was pressed with diuers schismes errours heresies false religions and many ecclesiasticall abuses and superstitions besides the heathen Idolatrie Ergo His ministerie stretched not onely ouer temporall causes but also ecclesiasticall Yea he counteth this his best ministerie Ergo. It belongeth to the Prince as well if not more than the other And so the Bishops argument followeth héerevpon that the Apostles sentence the Prince is Gods minister argueth the Princes charge and gouernement in all maner causes ecclesiasticall so well as temporall These proues of the Byshop béeing so euident M. Stap. answereth they are all insufficient saying I see ye not master Horne come as yet neere the matter I answere who is so blinde as he that seeth and will not see Were ye not of the number of those of whome Chryst sayth I came to iudgemēt into this worlde that those that see not shoulde see and those that see shoulde be made blind Ye might then both clearely see that he both cōmeth neere the matter and satisfieth it at large Excepte ye be as blinde of the matter also as ye pretende to be of these the Byshops proufes But if ye woulde haue followed your owne counsell euer to haue set before your eyes the state of the question in issue betwéene them ye shoulde well by this time haue seene that the Byshop digressed nothing frō it And that your selfe of self will or malice will not looke aright theron but cleane awrie stil starting aside and swaruing frō the marke for the nonce to picke occasions wheron to wrangle For wherfore I pray you do ye not see that the Bishop commeth not neere the matter I see not say you that Constantine changed religion plucked downe Altares deposed Byshops c. But that he was diligent in defending the olde and former faythe of the Christians Whatsoeuer you see or see not in Constantine master Stapl. all the world may see false dealing in you and how lyke an vnnaturall subiecte to your naturall Prince ye be As thoughe ye sawe that the Quéenes highnesse had changed religion excepte ye meane false religion and that ye might haue seene in Constantine also He changed the heathen religion of the Paynims and abolished it with all their Altares Byshops Priestes and temples and set foorth the true religion of Iesus Christe He chaunged likewise and abolished suche superstitions Idolatries schismes errours and heresies as troubled the Churche of Christe in his time Which you might easily haue seene in Constantines owne wordes by the Byshop cited That he put away and ouerthre we all the euils that pressed the worlde If you say ye can not yet see that he ment all spirituall and ecclesiasticall euils so well as temporall put on a payre of spectacles master Stapl that are not dymmed with affection and then shall ye see that of suche kinde as the good thinges were whiche he set foorth of suche kinde were the contrarie euils that he put away and ouerthrew but the good things that he set foorthe were true godlynesse decrees of God the religion of the moste holy law the most blessed fayth c. All whiche are matters moste spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo all the euils that he abolished were so well spirituall and ecclesiasticall as ciuill and temporall matters If ye say yet ye see nothing but that he was diligent in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians True in deede neither can ye see any other thing in the Quéenes Maiestie nor any authoritie is giuen héereby to Princes than as Constantine was to bee diligente in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians founded by Christ and taught by his Apostles And if any other since that time haue brought in any things besides that old and former fayth to remoue the same and reduce vs to the olde and former fayth of the Christians For as Tertullian sayth That is of the Lorde and that is truthe that was before deliuered but that which afterward was thrust in is bothe strange and false And so sayth Constantine I bothe called agayne mankind taught by my ministerie to the religion of the most holy lawe and also caused the moste blessed fayth should encrease grow vnder a better gouernor Nowe séeing that many poynts of the Popish fayth and doctrine haue cropen in since that time and manie of later yeres besides and contrarie to the olde and former fayth of the Cheistians taught by Christ and left vs written by the finger of the holy ghost sealed and confirmed by so many myracles to endure to the
doth Nicephorus ouer the Priestes the Bishops and the whole Church acknowledge in this Emperour for their reformation as he saith so nere as â—…e could to the primatiue Church Which notwithstanding as it was not true in this errour so was it not I graunt also in diuerse other corruptions agréeing some of them with the dregges of Poperie Yet for all this he that sayth Nicephorus sayth so neither lieth on him nor therevpon fauouâ—…eth their errours And he that sayth so in this poynt of the princes supreme dealing and deliuering of the Grecians from that Thraldom to the Pope into the which Michaell perforce had brought them shall not onely say true in saying Nicephorus sayth so but also that therein Nicephorus or any other so saying sayth therein most true he reformed religion to the purenesse thereof But nowe that master Stapleton will haue the Bishop clapped on the back for an Heretike against the holy ghost for shewing onely Nicephorus wordes who shall clappe on the backe Lazius Langus and all the doctours of Paris and Louaine for setting out allowing and approuing this authour to be verie Catholike in all poynts not making any exception of Heresie at all If there be any vpright iudgement in your selfe master St. let vs see you roll in your rayling rhetorike and rore agaynst them Go clap them on the backe and say patrisas and ye dare Ye might so be clapped your selfe by the héeles or haue a fagot clapped on your shoulders if ye did to teach you to kéepe your clattering clapper better in your heade Your second part is somwhat better directed to the allegation of the Bishop out of S. Paule with Chrysostomes and Cyrils iudgement therevpon Which you say is needelesse and farre from the matter c. That prosperitie of the common welth and true religion springeth from good regiment or Magistrates which we denie not say you and that the decay of religion destroyeth or deadly weakeneth the other which is also true Iâ—… ye graunt these to be true master Stapleton bowe chaunce in your marginall notes and store of vntruthes ye quarell so sore thereat There ye say there is no such words in Saint Paule and say This would be noted how ye racke S. Paule he nameth not religion at all he doth not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrate but peace and tranâ—…llitie onely in godlynesse Thus ye chalenge the Bishop there for falsehoode â—…nd racking How truly shall appeare in the aunswere to your bederoll of vntruthes Only now I note yoâ—… vnconstant dealing For here ye denie it not but say it is â—…rue all that the Bishop hath sayd thereon and graunt the â—…e as not preiudiciall to your cause But marke M. Stap. what here ye graunt and confesse to be true That prosperitie of the common welth and true religion springeth from the good regiment of Magistrates If this be so as ye say then the Princes regiment and direction in both these next vnder God is simplie the principall is the fountaine of them both And as the ouersight direction and chiefe authoritie of setting forth the one so the ouersight direction and the chief authoritie of setting forth the other floweth from the Prince if either of those do spring from him For howe can that spring from him whiche ye neyther make to bée deriued by anie meanes from him nor he to haue any direction or gouernement off nor anie taste rellishe care or â—…edling therewith as nothing belonging to him Is this to be a spring or fountaine of it Which syth ye graunte vnto the Prince whether wittingly or vnaduisedly I knowe not nor by what cautele ye â—…de to 〈◊〉 off the matter it is 〈◊〉 simplie to estaâ—… the Bishops 〈◊〉 and to 〈◊〉 your cause and 〈◊〉 your craftes with your owne plaiâ—…e words that here ye say it is true and ye will not denie it the prosperitie of the common weale and true religion springeth from the good regiment of Magistrates Whervpon it foloweth that not only true religion belongeth to their regiment out their regiment being a spring thereof hath a superioritie and iâ—… the heade as it were in direction and setting forth true Religion among their subiects as the spring hath a superioritie and is the heade in casting forth pure water into the brokes or riuers Thus ye sée master Stapleton that the Bishops allegation is so necessarie and nearâ—… to the matter that both it concludeth the question in hande and your selfe in the end are â—…ayne or of force driuen to yelde thereto in this poynt And vpon this dependeth the other poynt which ye graunt also to be true That the decay of Religion destroyeth or deadly weakeneth the other Wherein ye say weâ—…l Master Stapleton if ye graunt it to the purpose wherefore it is alleaged that these two thinges prosperitie and religion are necessarily â—…o be combined in a Prince whose regiment ye haue graâ—…ed to be a spring from whence both of these doe come For so not onely Saint Paule and Chrysostome expounding him Cyrill also meaneth but euen Nicephorus the authour last mentioned in the sayde Prince doth commende that felicitie and the true worship of GOD were so knitâ—…e in him that godlynesse by hir force had drawne felicitie to hiâ—… or rather GOD had ioyned and tempered them togither to the ende that by the helpe of bothe these hee might become both in deede a marueylous helpe and succour and also a steadie stay and firmament as it were to diuine oâ—… Ecclesiasticall matters beginning to fall away And to this purpose are these two so ioyned togither in the Prince that as the Bishop sayeth and you doe not gainesay thâ—… same The wante of the one especially of religion destroyth or deadly weakeneth the other Sith now therfore the B. and you agrée that these pointâ—… are true and howe nere eyther of these doe comprehende the matter in controuersie is apparant wherefore doe you in néedelesse examples and farre from the matter spende the time to prooue that which neither the Bishop nor you â—…enye As the vtter ruine say you of the Empyre of Greece proceeding from the manifolde heresies especially that whereof we haue discoursed doth to well and to plainly testifie And therefore I wold wishe you and maister Foxe with others but you two aboue all others with good aduisement to note that as the wicked Iewes that crucified Christ about the holy time of Easter were at the verye same time or thereabout besieged of the Romaines and shortlye after brought to such desolation and to such miserable wretched state as in a maner is incredible sauing that beside the foreseeing and foresaying therof by Christ there is extant at this day a true faithful report â–ª eueÌ„ so your dearlings the GreciaÌ„s whose error but not alone but accompanied with some other that you at this day stoutly defend yet especially rested in this heresie against the
holy ghost that ye terme with an vnclean an impure mouth pure religion were in their chiefe citie of Constantinople in the time of Constantinus sonne to Iohn nephew to Andronicus your Emanuels father euen about VVhitfontide at which time the Catholike Church in true and syncere fayth concerning the holye ghost keepeth a solemne festiuall day of the holy ghost sodenlye by the wicked Turkes besieged and shortly after the Citie and the whole Greeke Empire came into the Turkes handes and possession VVherein God seemeth as before to the Iewes so afterwardes to the Grecians as it were with pointing and notifying it with his finger to shew and to notifie vnto all the worlde the cause of the finall destruction aswell of the one as of the other people What is all this to the purpose M. Stapleton what maketh this against the Bishoppes matter or to further yours except to lengthen your tale although it séemeth that your tale is false neyther you agrée with your selfe therein it is false bicause at that time the great Turke besieged and wonne the Empire of Gréece the Grecians had forsaken this heresie yea and that more is acknowledged the Popes supremacie wherein the question lyeth whether in so doing they fell into another or no for after their agréement at Lions councell by Michaell Paleologus and their reuolt agayne vnder Andronicus the elder Iohn the sonne of Emanuell nephewe to Andronicus the yonger whom before ye mentioned came to the councell at Florence that was called in spits of Basill councell and agréed with Pope Eugenius whome Basill Councell had deposed and so continued in agréement with the Pope till in Constantinus reigne brother to this Iohn the Turke besieged and ouercame them And so your tale is false that say they rested in this opinion till their captiuitie Whereas a good while before they had quite forsaken it after they fully vnderstoode the Latines opinion theron which before they did not Secondly ye agrée not with your owne tale for both in your Preface and hereafter in many places ye ascribe the captiuitie of them chiefly to their not acknowledging of the Pope and so doth Uolaterane which is as false as the other For at that time they were fully agréed with him And here as one that had forgotten his former tale you ascribe the chiefe cause of their captiuitie to the heresie against the holy ghost and so make your proportion betwéene the Iewes bondage at Easter and theirs at Whitsontide at what time is celebrated the solemne feast of the holy ghost And thereon ye take vppon you as though ye were of Gods secrete counsayle to tell vs howe God poynted out the matter wyth hys finger But where to is all this so farre fetched about how is it brought into the purpose For M. St. will haue nothing here that is nedelesse and farre from the matter forsooth this must be presupposed that the Grecians are the B â–ª dearlings â–ª and that the Bishop is of the same opinion bicause he alleged Nicephorus as is before said And her vpon he maketh his marginall note a good aduert sement for M. Horne to consider the cause of the destruction of Constantinople Where by this rule he may saye it is a good note for Langus for Lazius for the Sorbonistes of Paris for his owne Doctors and good maisters at Louaine where he professeth himselfe a student in Diuinitie to beware the same for they haue commended Nicephorus to all the worlde and they allowe his doctrine for pure religion in all pointes not excepting this and therforeal the Papists be belike the Grecians dearlings and denie the proceeding of the holye ghost from the father and the sonne so is it a fitter admonition for the Popish catholikes than for the B. or any other Protestant whose faith in this point and all other concerning the holy ghost the Papistes can not blemish And yet by your leaue M. St. the Papistes be not very sounde in all pointes concerning the holy ghost as I shall shewe you further when you require the same and therefore they had more néede of the twayne to beware of this ensample But since M. Stapl. will so faine haue this cause considered of the Grecians captiuitie I graunt him this their errour might worthily be noted a sufficient cause or any oter errour or naughtinesse of life might well deserue the heauy hande of God and the scourge of such a tyrant as the Turke But whatsoeuer they or we to whome God be mercifull at Gods handes doe deserue not entering into Gods iudgement but speaking of men the most likely and chiefest cause of this Empires decay is euen the verye Pope him selfe his ambitious treacherie first spoyled and diuided the Empire into twaine and made all the West part forsake their sworne obedience And hath also so spoyled this part of the Empyre in the west that besides the bare title of the Empire of Rome the Emperour God wote hath little or nothing the Pope in effect hath all And where the Emperor of Rome had wont to be Lorde to the Bishop of Rome and to other Bishops besides The Bishop of Rome is nowe Lorde to the Emperour of Rome and to all other Princes besides and to attaine to his triple diademe ouer all Princes he hath neuer ceased to stirre and moue such garboyles as all Christendome hath lost onely the Pope hath woon therby and the barbarous nations haue ouerrunne all Europe Asia and Affricke No maruayle then if at the length Christian Princes powers being diuided and weakened with continuall warre and chiefly set on or maintained by the Pope especially against the Grecians the Turks at the last haue ouercome the Empire being destitute of forrein ayde and of themselues giuen to wanton effeminatenesse Although thus much I may iustly note they euer well ynough defended and maintained them selues till they acknowledged obedience to the Pope who was the first cause of their ruine Which done they neuer throue after but were in short time besieged cleanâ—… ouercome When they had once giuen their soules captiue to the tirannie of the Pope their bodies not long after became thrall to the slauerie of the Turke Which séemeth rather to be Gods iust plague vnto them wherein to vse your owne wordes as it were with pointing and notifying with his finger he sheweth to all the worlde to beware of these two aduersaries the spirituall enimie the Pope and the bodilie enimie the Turke Thus M. Stapleton your néedlesse admonition toucheth your selfe and your Pope nearer than ye were a wist Neuerthelesse not so content making as though you had as in déede ye haue ouershotte your selfe you pretende to drawe nearer home But what speake I of Greece say you wee neede not to run to so farre yeares or countries the case toucheth vs much nearer the Realme of Boheme and of late yeares of Fraunce and Scotlande the noble Countrie of Germanie with some other that I
M. sand And now as though he had brought an inuincible proofe he procéedeth saying But if he must needs be deposed at least for heresie hovv shall that controuersie be iudged without the knowledge of the doctors of the Church who only of their office haue the ordinarie lawful power to loke to the flocke in the whiche the holy Ghost hath placed theÌ„ to guide the Church of God. But the pastors doctors of the church could not be Iudges of any king except the king in that thing were lesse inferior to theÌ„ For neither the equal hath power ouer the equal neither the inferior ouer the superior VVorthily therfore we affirme that al christiaÌ„ kings in those things that appertaine to matters of faith are so vnder bishops priests â–ª that when offending obstinately against the christiaÌ„ religion â–ª they shall perseuer after one two rebukings bothe they maye and they ought for that cause to be by the Byshops sentence deposed from the gouernement that they holde ouer the Christians You conclude ful worthily M. San. your argument is this if the Prince must needes be deposed he must be deposed by the Bishops priestes This reason hangeth all on this presupposall that he hath so fully proued this that the Prince nowe in all post hast must nedes be deposed â–ª And yet we haue hitherto heard no such proues that should enforce any suche necessitie but rather necessarie for the bishops priests or any other subiects behalfe to let him remaine still vndeposed for them although he were an heretike So that we may rather reuerse the argument If nedes he must not be deposed the must not the bishops priests attempt to depose him Howbeit ther is no necessitie in the coÌ„sequence that if he must nedes be deposed that for heresie that the bishops priests must depose hi. Yes saith M. SaÌ„ for how shal that coÌ„trouersie be iudged without theÌ„ what thogh that coÌ„trouersie could not be iudged without theÌ„ M. sand must they therefore be deposers of him froÌ„ his estate bicause they iudge of the doctrine he professeth must they iudge of his Diademe bicause they iudge of his religioÌ„ but what if they theÌ„selues haue corrupt iudgements therein trow you priests bishops haue not had so ere now yes eueÌ„ this sentence of s. Paule that here you cite for the Bishops and Priestes authoritie giueth a plaine warning of it I knowe saithe he that after my departure shall come among you rauening VVolues not sparing the flocke there shall rise vp men from among your selues speaking peruerse thinges to dravve Disciples after them But say you saint Paule saith they must looke to the flocke so much the more in vvhiche the holy ghost hath placed them to guide the church of God. True in déed they must so do But what if they be blind theÌ„selues how loke they to it then And did Christ neuer talke of blind guides you post off that to the Phariseis Iewish Bishops But if you were not more blind thaÌ„ they you would sée a great difference betwéene loking to the flocke guiding the Church of God by teaching true doctrine taking heede vnto and discerning of false doctrines and teachers preching the worde of God with learned iudgement and betwéene the clayming of authoritie to depose Kings and Princes froÌ„ their royal estates Whie say you if they be Iudges they are aboue them and neither equall nor inferior They may be equal and aboue them too in learned Iudgement and also in the dispensation of their misteries yet in publike authoritie far inferior And therfore your conclusion A secuÌ„dum quid ad simpliciter faileth that bicause they are inferior in one thing to Bishops they be in al thinges or in this thing inferior Yea say you they are so vnder Bishops and Priestes that when offending obstinately againste the Christian religion they shall perfeuer after one or two rebukings the Bishoppes may and ought to depose them from their gouernment ouer Christians This is a great inferiorship M. sand to be so much vnder them For by this rule if a Prince as coÌ„monly Popishe Princes doe shoulde kepe a Paramour â–ª a Popishe Byshop may depose him But they wil not be ouer hastie to reproue the Prince for that which they vse themselues neither couÌ„t they it an offence against christiaÌ„ religion yet in the christiaÌ„ religion iâ—… is forbidden so is against it especially to defend it mainteing it as the Papistes do But if he do wrong to any of his subiectes wil not amende his wrong after a B. hath once or twise giueÌ„ him warning of it then by this rule the B. maye straighte depose him And in déede so they haue done would do if the wrong touch them if their lands and goods were diminished then by by it is against the ChristiaÌ„ religion it is plaine heresie except by the seconde admonition it be restored with a recumbentibus the king must be in al the hast deposed there is no remedie nor further respit for not only the Bishops may but plat plaine they ought to doe it Is not here a kingdome brought to a goodly state But he wil say he meaneth by offences against the Christian religion matters of faith But what helpeth this for as wheÌ„ the Lion proclaimed that al horned beasts shuld auoyd out of the wood although the Foxes pricked eares were no horns neyther néeded he haue gone ye he wisely foresaw that this was but a drifte to picke a quarel therefore he hied him out of the wood For since al lay in the Lions interpretatioÌ„ what if the Lion had said his prick eares had bin horns or as sharp as hornes surely then the Fox had dronke for it And if the Byshops may haue the like authoritie to bid the Prince be packing out of his realme if he offend the christian religion what will it boote the Prince if the Bishops be disposed to picke a quarel against him to saye he offendeth not againste the Christian religion but rather defendeth the true religion of Christ against the corruptions of it and in déede so he doth but what auayleth eyther his excuse or the truth of the matter if the Bishops shall say it is heresie and against the christian faith the Bishops that so say shal be the Iudges whether it be so or no were not the king as good get him out of his kingdome at the first or else they will depose him set him out with a heaue ho But that Bishops may thus hamper Princes as they list where find we authoritie or example in the scripture yes saith M. Saunders For God which at the firste so seuered the heauenly kingdome from the earthly kingdome that he suffered the kings of the earth to come togither against the Lorde and againste his anoynted and thereby notably declared his power while by the
can be made among ChristiaÌ„s that either the bishops of any kingdom much lesse the B. of Rome for al kingdomes ought to know the causes of kings Emperors whether they be iust or vniust This generalitie can not iustly be inferred on such a specialtie For neither al kings estates 〈◊〉 like to this kings estate nor all Bishops estates like to this Bishops estate as by the causes aforesayd appeareth Fourthly I answer that as here is inferred no ordinary rule for Bishops to haue knowledge in kings Emperors cau ses froÌ„ the coÌ„trarie here is inferred an ordinary rule for kings Emperors to haue knowledge of B. causes For eueÌ„ at the kings 〈◊〉 althogh he wer an infaÌ„t had no more skil of religioÌ„ thaÌ„ of gouernmeÌ„t the text saith they put the crowneâ—… vpon him and gaue him the lawe in his hande And so saythe Lyra the testimonie that is the law wherein he was ordeined ought to studie and meditate and keepe it and cause it to be kept True it is that the high Prieste did teach him and the King did well so long as he was taught of so godly a father And therevpon maye well be inferred that Byshops maye teach Kings that vvhich is right before the Lorde But this teaching of the King inferreth no publike gouernement of the King which the Pope claimeth and M. Saunders pleadeth for The authoritie of teaching the King and the authoritie of gouerning the King are â—…arre different authorities That of teaching we graunt to Ioiada and to al Godly Byshops not to teach what they will but that vvhiche is right before the Lord. And to sée that they do this the Prince hath the lavve of God giuen into his handes so well as the crowne set on his head to shewe that although the Byshops mustâ—… teach true doctrine and Godly exhortatioÌ„ yet must the King haue knowledge to ouersée that it be taught â–ª as well much more than any other matters of his kingdoms What shall we say then to the popishe Byshops which will not giue the lavve of God into the Princes handes but wring it out of his handes that he should not knowe it but blindly followe such false doctrine and naughtie examples as they woulde teache him are these Byshops like to the Byshop Ioiada And if this king fel to Idolatrie when he wanted this good teacher how shall that King doe that neuer had suche a teacher and yet for all this teaching of Ioiada that was as it were a father to the King the King notwithstanding while he continued good bothe commaunded all the Priestes and taught them how they should deale in their oblations collections reparations and other thinges belonging to the Temple And Ioas saide to the Priestes all the siluer of thinges dedicated that be brought to the house of the Lorde c. Let the Priestes take it vnto them euery one of his acquaintance and they shall repayre the broken places of the house vvheresoeuer any decaye is founde And in the 23. yeare of King Ioas the Priestes had not amended that vvhich vvas decayed in the Temple Then King Ioas called for Ioiada the Priest and the other Priests and saide vnto them VVhy repaire ye not the ruines of the Temple Novv therefore receiue no more money of your acquaintance except ye deliuer it to repaire the ruines of the Temple Thus did the King not only knovv of the Priestes causes but called them before him yea euen his vncle Ioiada the high Priest also appointed an order vnto them how to bestow their offerings And when they were negligent therein he rebuked theÌ„ reuoked his former ordinance except on their amendement Neither did the Priests no nor his vncle Ioiada the highe Prieste grudge or grumble hereat nor sayde that the offerings were theirs not his to dispose nor told him they were his superiors but as his inferiors most humbly obeyed his ordinances Al vvhich things fithe they vvere vvell done is not novve true according to the sense of the diuine Scripture that we may make a better ordinarie rule herâ—…on for Kings and Emperors to knovve of Byshops causes than for Byshops to knovve of Kings and Emperors causes If you replye this was but a money matter I answere yet was this money oblations and offerings But will you graunt Princes thus much to make ordinances howe all your money offerings shall be vsed when ye shall gather them and when not of whom ye shal take them and howe ye shall bestowe them â—…ay 〈◊〉 will neuer doe this for money is the chiefest thing ye shoote at no penie no pater noster all your eâ—…cl causes depende so on money offerings that as good ye gaue the prince authoritie in al ecclesiastical matters as let him deale thus with your money offerings as Ioas did with theirs But doth your own glosse expound this no further than to money matters Ioas saithe your glosse both in this name and in this vvorke signifieth Christ for it is interpreted the strength of the Lorde He commaundeth the teachers that they should take all the money that is offered into the Lordes house of the passers by to vvit whatsoeuer spirituall knovvledge or good vvorke is brought into the Lords treasorie that by the offices of the preachers it may be bestovved on the repayring of the spirituall Temple that vvhatsoeuer he shall finde torne by errour or hurte by Vices they should repaire least the multitude of hearers should perishe by the doctors negligence â–ª Here this facte of the King is compared to the representation of Christe and to the ouersight of all eccl. matters So that if Kings will account the studie of the Lawe of God as well to belong vnto them as their crowne if they will looke vnto know and examine the causes of the Byshops and their reuenues and appoint them orders to repair the ruines of the Lords temple and sée that the preachers lay out their talents of spirituall knowledge good workes towards the building then should kings truely represent Christe and be indéede the strength of the Lorde bycause they haue the Lords power authoritie thervnto And thus this example better considered maketh more for the Kings authoritie ouer the Byshops than for the Byshops ouer the Kings authoritie Fiftly I answere that althoughe a Godly Byshop be a sequester betwéen God the Prince betwéene the Prince and the people in prayer in the Sacramentes and in preaching yet â–ª is he not a sequester betwéen God and the Prince or betwene the Prince the people in matters of the kingdome least of all he may sequester him from his kingdome And though he be the Angell of the Lord in his message if he be a Godly byshop for otherwise he is the Angell of SathaÌ„ yet is the King the Lordes anoynted or the Lordes Christe in authoritie but the Lords Christ in authoritie is aboue the lordes Angels in message therefore the King
Pope is the supreme head of the Church 36. a. Master Hooper was so answered by M. Feckenham c. 37. a. After all this your long trauaile wherein ye haue to the most vttred all your skill ye are so farre from full aunswering his scruples and stayes that they seeme plainly to be vnaunswerable and your selfe quite ouerborne and ouerthrowne and that by your owne arguments and inductions as we shall hereafter euidently declare 38. b. I referre mee to your scriptures fathers Councels practise of the Church that ye would seeme to rest vpon VVhereby neuerthelesse you your selfe shall take a shamefull foyle and fall VVherefore go on a Gods name and bring forth your euidences go on I say in Gods name master Horne and prosecute your plea stoutly 40. a. b. Nowe therefore go on master Horne and being at your first encountring ouerblowne and discomfited with your owne blast thinke well whether it is likely that ye shall hereafter bring agaynst your aduersarie any thing c. 42. a. VVee freely graunt you that Princes may sharply punishe teachers of false and superstitious religion c. for I say to you that you and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion 42. a. I trowe it will be harde for you to bring forth any act of parliament or any other conuenient and sufficient plea. 42. b. The olde ordinarie Latine glose I am right sure M. Horne it hath no such thing 42. b. His scripture c. reacheth nothing home to his pretensed purpose but rather infringeth and plaine marreth the same as I haue sayde and fully standeth on our side So I doubt nothing it will fare with his examples as Moses Iosue Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias Iosias And that they all come to short and are to weake to iustifie his assertion But here am I shrewdly encombred and in great doubt what to doe for I could make a short but a true aunswere that these ensamples are fully aunswered alreadie 43 a. This one aunswere might well serue for all the kings doings now following sauing I wil particularly descende to euery one and for euery one say somewhat Here I wish to encounter with master Nowell 45. a. Master Nowell fretteth fumeth with master Dorman who shall coole him well ynough I doubt not 49. a. Ye haue hitherto brought nothing effectuall c. the contrary is by vs auouched sufficiently proued c. bring forth that king that did not agnize one supreme hed c. ye haue not done it nor neuer shall doe it and if ye coulde shewe any it were not woorth the shewing c. what president haue ye shewed of any good king 53. b. That the Popishe religion is the vsuall religion a thousand yeares and vpwarde 53. b. VVhat euidence haue ye brought forth c. what can ye bring forth out of the olde testament to ayde and relieue your doings c. what can ye shewe c. what good induction can ye bring c. what good motiue can ye gather c. what thinke ye that ye can perswade vs c. are ye able suppose ye to name vs any one king c. O M. Horn your manifolde vntruthes are disciphered and vnbuckled ye are espied ye are espied I say well inough that ye come not by a thousande yeardes and more neare the marke Your bowe is to weake your armes to feeble to shoote with any your commendation at the marke yea if ye were as good an archer as were that famous Robin hoode or little Iohn VVell shift your bowe or at least wise your string Let the olde testament go and proceede to your other proufes VVherein we wil now see if ye can shoote any streighter for hitherto ye haue shotte al awrie and as a man may say like a blinde man see nowe to your selfe from henceforth that ye open your eyes and that ye haue a good eie and a good aime to the marke we haue set before you If not be ye assured we will make no curtesie eft soones to put ye in remembrance For hitherto ye haue nothing prooued that Princes ought which ye promised to proue c. 55. a. Answere the fortresse Master Horne annexed to Saint Bede if ye dare 55. b. Belike the worlde goeth verie hard with you 56. a. Ye shall anon heare of it 56. a. Master Feckenhams heresie is so secrete and priuie that Argus himselfe with all his eies shall neuer espie it no nor M. Horne himselfe let him prie neuer so narrowly 56. b. Ye haue heard of your auncestours before perhaps and that ◅ by me 56. b. I forbeare at this time of the residue of your noble progenitors hauing in other places as I noted before spoken largely of the same 57. b. Come forth once and cleare your selfe of this only obiection if ye can being so often pressed therewith 57. b. 58. a. Cleare your selfe if ye bee able I assure you M. Horne you and all your fellowes will neuer be able to auoide this one onely obiection 58. a. As I haue proued you your companions open and notable heretiks so shal I streight way purge M. Feck to be no Donatist or any heretike otherwise for any thing yet by you laid to his charge But now M. Horne beware your self c. beware I say for I suppose I will lay more pregnant matter in this behalfe to your their charge thā ye haue or possible can do to M. Feck or any other Catholike VVhereof I dare make any indifferent reader iudge If I should amplifie this matter at large it would rise to a prettie volume 58. a. Aunswere then to my third demaund in the fortresse annexed to Saint Bede 59. b. I shall trace him and smell him out well inough 60. b. Your great Canons come not nigh his hold by 1000. miles They will not beate downe a verie paper wall 62. a. Here might we euen by your owne rule crie out vpon you al as Apollinarians and Eutichians 63. a. And for my part master Horne that you may not thinke I haue now beene first so aduised vpon sight of your booke I haue forced that argument with many examples of godly Emperours and Princes in my Dedicatorie Epistle to the Queenes Maiestie before the translated Historie of the venerable Bede 65. b. VVe say that you are wicked deprauers of religion 65. b. VVe say ye are as great blasphemers as euer Christes Church had c. we say further that not only the general councel of Trent but the whole church hath condēned your opinions by general national coūcels many hūdred yeres since 65. I heare say master Fox is busie to set forth a fresh in print yet once againe his huge monstrous martirloge I will doe so much for him as minister him plentie of good stuffe I warrant you to set forth adorne at his next edition 66. b VVell I will bring ye as I thinke a substantiall and an ineuitable proofe 66. b. Though I graunt you all that ye haue
replie vvill declare Hovv vvell so euer he hath played his partes full ilfauoredly you begin to plaie yours M. Stap. thus to wrangle about the partes of opponent and answerer The B. playeth not the opponent but you playe the Marchant The B. not in playe but in truth good earnest as M. Feckenham pretendeth to 〈◊〉 requireth to be satisfied answereth to his requestes by the foresayde proues that here ye confesse he bringeth forth The partie opponent as in the other scruples still is M. Feckenham But be he opponent or defendaÌ„t as either of theÌ„ in respects may be either if he bring those proues that ye graunt he doth ye haue litle occasioÌ„ to make a playe scoffe at the matter Neither doth this blemish the truth froÌ„ whom he had it wher with ye would séeme as it were with an awke blowe to foyle the B. learning that he founde out these prooues not all by his owne studie but by the helpe of his friends Which as you M. Stapleton for your owne parte were faine to confesse right now so is there no cause ye should measure the Bishops knowledge by your owne defecte But herein ye do but as the residue do this is the fashioÌ„ of all your coÌ„péeres Where truth faileth you â–ª at the least to winne a credite of learning to your selues like prowde Pharisies ye dispise al other besides your selues To which purpose as M. Stapl. would staine the Bishops godly and learned labour herein at the least that all might not séeme to be his owne but gathered by others to his hands so in the telling of his owne well ordered péece of worke he setteth out euery point to the vttermost to coÌ„mende the better vnto vs his great learning industrie and perspicuitie He telleth vs solemnly how to the first parte he replieth in three bookes how he hath deuided eche booke into seuerall chapters what he hath noted at the toppe of eche page But he telleth not what common places he hath set out in eche line He telleth how he hath exceedingly lightned the matter and what recapitulations he hath made thereof To the second parte he telleth vs it shall appeare but when he telleth vs not both what strong and inuincible arguments M. Feknam right learnedly proposed as most iuste causes of his said refusall And also vvhat â—…ely shiftes and miserable escapes M. Horne hath deuised to maynteine that obstinately vvhich he once conceaued erroneously And thus forsoothe nothing to the prayse and setting forth of him selfe M. Feckenham nor to the blemishing of his aduersarie hath M. Stapleton deuided the content of the Bishops answere and his counterblast thereto Now thinking with this preiudice of both their labours he hath sufficiently affectionate the Reader to his partie thirdly he entreth into a generall fore warning of him the effect whereof is to forsake this religion which he beginneth with this earnest adiuring of him Novv good Reader saith Master Stapleton as thou tendrest thine owne saluation â–ª and hopest to be a saued soule in the ioyful and euerlasting blisse of heauen so consider and vveigh vvith thy selfe the importaunce of this matter in hande What hope of saluation M. St. can the Popish doctrine bréede that alwayes doubteth as much of damnation as it hopeth of saluation haÌ„geth wauering betwene dispayre hope admitting no certentie of faith or trust to grouÌ„de vpoÌ„ The attenâ—…ion that ye desire in the Reader we as earnestly desire the same also neither that he come to reade attentiuely with any preiudicate opinion on either parte as you would haue his minde foresâ—…alled on your side but euen with indifferencie as he shall finde the matter in hande to leade him so to weigh and consider the importance thereof euen as he tendreth and verely hopeth his ovvne saluation And as the Reader shall do this for his parte so let vs sée how you do for yours and of what great importance your arguments are to sturre vp this earnest attention in the Reader The first argument that ye make is this First vvithout authoritie is no religion Then if this Religion vvhereby thou hopest to be saued haue no authoritie to grounde it selfe vppon vvhat hope of saluation remayning in this religion canst thou receyue Now as though the Maior were in controuersie and the pointe we sticke vpon he first solemnely strengthneth it with the authoritie of S. Augustine For no true religion saith S. Augustine can by any meanes be receaued vvithout some vvaightie force of authoritie As for the Minor which determineth nothing but hanging on a conditionall pinne maketh no directe conclusion too or fro We graunt him that iâ—… our religion haue no authoritie no hope of saluation can be grounded thereon But then he replieth If it haue any authoritie it hath the authoritie of the Prince by vvhose supreme gouerment it is enacted erected and forced vpon thee other authoritie hath it none Ergo For want of sufficient good authoritie it is no true Religion Ye desired right now M. St. euen as the Reader tendreth his ovvne saluation to consider and vveighe vvith him self the importance of this matter And is this all the importance of your first argument against our Religion that the Reader should weigh coÌ„sider so déepely What is here alleaged besides a bolde and manifest slaunder forced vpon the Reader by the authoritie onely of your bare woorde Which the more the Reader shall consider and especially thus your beginning for an handsell of good lucke to the residue he shall the better perceaue the falshood and impudencie of your whole cause dealing For to set one If against another If the reader better coÌ„sidering weighing with himself shal finde this religioÌ„ not to be of so late enacting erecting forcing but enacted erected and forced of God in his holy woorde shall not this coÌ„sideration detect you to be a malicious slauÌ„derer if the reader with al shall vveigh the peise of your argument that the Prince hath a supreme gouernment in all Ecclesiasticall causes Ergo the Religion that the Prince sets forth hath noâ—…e other authoritie but of him shal be not finde it like the father of it as light as a thing of nought But exhorting the Reader to vveigh and consider the matter not considering nor vveighing what ye say your selfe ye blunder on in your Ifs and say If then that supreme gouernment that hauing none other authoritie enacteth erecteth and forceth a Religion vpon thée be not due to the laie Prince but to the spirituall Magistrate and to one chiefe Magistrate among the vvhole spiritualtie thou â—…eest thy ReligioÌ„ is but a bare name of religion and no religion in deede Here whether he be ashamed to set it downe or thinketh it so cléere it néedeth not recital but is inferred of the Maior he leaueth out the Minor of his argumeÌ„t But that supreme gouernment is due to one chiefe spirituall magistrate only and to
no lay Prince Ergo Thy religion is no religioÌ„ in deede but a bare name therof The reader thanks be to God were he but a simple clerke néede not greatly beate his braynes in considering the vvaight of this argument The maior is hanged vp for holidayes on your conditional pin The minor is your manifest falsehod The whole in effect standeth on these two false â—…urmised principles presupposing the prince to take suche supreme gouernement on him as the Pope chalengeth and that suche as the Pope chalengeth is due to the Pope to make infringe or alter religion without any other authoritie which indéede is neyther due to Prince or prelate but to God alone nor the prince but the popeclaymeth it and therefore his argument maketh only against the popes religion as thus To enact erect or force religion vpon thee â—…yther of spirituall or lay magistrate whosoeuer by their or his supreme 〈◊〉 and other authoritie for it hath none is to make in deed no religion at all but a bare name of religion onely But that thus doth the Pope as besides that it is manifest euen here M. Stap. plamely confesseth saying that supreme gouernment making relation to the wordes immediately precéeding vvhich supreme gouernement enacteth erecteth and forceth religion vppon thee hauing no other authoritie is due to the spirituall magistrate and to one chiefe magistrate among the vvhole spiritualtie meaning his holy father the pope Ergo The popes religion is a bare name of religion onely and no religion in deede And thus his owne argument better considered returneth on him selfe But he béeyng blinded with the affection of his false principles and reasoning à petitione principâ—… â–ª runneth on with his 〈◊〉 from the religion to the othe to inferre periâ—…rie Againe sayth he if this supreme gouernement be not rightly attributed to the lay magistrate in vvhat state are they vvhich by booke othe doe svveare that it ought so to be yea and that in their consciences they are so persvvaded Is not periurie and speciallye a vvilfull continuance in the same a most horrible damnable crime in the sight of god and doth not gods vengeance vvatch ouer them vvhich sleepe iâ—… periurie â–ª I vvill be a quicke vvitnesse to periured persons sayth God by the Prophete Malachie He that heard you preach thus against periurie M. St. knewe ye not might thinke ye were not guiltie But if he better coÌ„sidered your periured case obstinate disobedience agaynst your Prince how wilfully ye continue and sleepe therin and maliciously slaunder your prince countrimen and wrest the othâ—… of set purpose he woulde surely maruell of your impudenâ—… If this supreme gouernment say you be not rightly attributed to the lay magistrate in vvhat state are they vvhich by boke o th do sweare that it ought so to be What is this supreme gouernment M. St. that ye speak of If ye say that which I speciâ—…ed before to were that which erecteth enacteth and forceth religion vpon thee without any other authoritie therof what is this but one of your impudent slauÌ„ders For though your pope taketh this supreme gouernmeÌ„t you giue it him yet neither we attribute this to the prince nor the prince taketh any such vpoÌ„ 〈◊〉 neither do the people sweare it ought so to be nor any such oth is tendred them therfore be in no such state of periury The oth that the prince offreth the people take nameth nor conteyneth any such supreme gouernmeÌ„t but such as they may lawfully ought to take thanks be to god incurre no such dauÌ„ger but performe therin their dutifull true obedience But in what state are you to set another if to yours â—…f the supreme gouernment that the lay magistrate as ye saucily cal the Quéenes maiesty requireth by oth be rightly attributed vnto hir highnes in what state theÌ„ are all those papists that obstinately disobey maliciously slauÌ„der by al meanes impugue the same are you not in the state of periurie or farre worse in what state be al you papists that where the oth to this supreme gouernmeÌ„t which ye speak of implieth as you coÌ„clude manifest periury and you plainely ascribe it to the Pope the Pope sweareth you other his vassals to it is not this periurie especially a vvilful coÌ„tinuance in the same a most horrible damnable crime in the sight of God and doth not Gods vengeance vvatch ouer them vvhich sleepe in periurie I vvill bee a quicke vvitnesse to periured persons sayth God by his prophet Malachie And therfore looke your selfe to this your chalenge better about ye M. St. For if the reader should vveigh it further as ye pretende I feare me further matter will fall out agayâ—…st ye But for all this M. St. will not stay but on he goeth still with his iffs and reuerseth his arguments on the contrary reasoning on this his condition 〈◊〉 absurdo If that supreme gouernment may duly rightly appertein to our liege souereigne or be any principall part of a princes roial povver as master Horne stoutly but fondly auoucheth or of his 〈◊〉 â—…eruice to God vvhich neuer prince in the realme of England before the dayes of K. Henry the 8. vsed or claimed vvhich neuer Emperour king or prince vvithout the realm of England yet to this present houre had or atteÌ„pted to haue â–ª vvhich the chief masters of the religion novv authorised in England do mislike reproue condemne namely Martin Luther Iohn 〈◊〉 Philip Melanction and the Magdeburgenâ—…s as in place coÌ„uenient I haue shevved vvhich also in no time or age since princes vvere first christned in no lande or couÌ„try in no councel general or national was euer vvitnessed practised or allowed last of all which directly fighteth vvith christs coÌ„mission giueÌ„ to the apostles their successors in the gospel standeth direct coÌ„trary to an article of our crede if such supreme gouernmeÌ„t I say may be lavvful good theÌ„ is the oth lavvful and may vvith good conscience be taken But if these be such absurdities as euery man of any consideration seeth and abhorreth then may not the othe of any man that hath a conscience bee taken Neyther can this supreme gouernment be possiblye defended for good and lavvfull Upon iffs and affs ye may conclude M Stap. what ye please This one pin â—…f will beare all this light stuffe that that ye hang vpon it well inough What man and if the skie fall we shall haue Larkes they say Ye recken vp many particulers if this be thus and if that be so and if the other thing be that and iâ—… suche be good and if these he suche but if this be not thus if that be not so if such be not these if these be not such then I say then that that is not this and this is not that and so ye conclude it makes no matter what For of all your solemne arguing to and fro ye lay downe in déede many
most herein ye would haue him either beleue first ground him self on your false principles or else would ye sâ—…e beshrew him for traueling one whit therin and fal as fast to besech him to let the matter alone except he wil before hand on your word beleue that this supreme gouernmeÌ„t belongeth to your pope And hauing so gotteÌ„ his grauÌ„t on this which is the coÌ„trouersie it selfe theÌ„ ye besech the gentle reader most diligently to labor trauell in this controuersie But the reader may sée with no great trauell for y matter that as ye â—…etract your duty froÌ„ your prince so ye ascribe a great deale to much to your pope For where to win the reader to your partie ye say that all controuersies in effect depend vpon this Ergo admit this admit al deny this deny al the antecedent in déed in your popish church is true Where they make al articles of religioÌ„ to depend vpoÌ„ him But in christs church it is true of none other but of christ alone Upon whoÌ„ being the corner sâ—…one rock al the building is fouÌ„ded ariseth in whoÌ„ being the only chiefe vniuersal hâ—…d all the members haue lyfe all controuersies in effect depeÌ„d Admit his supreme authoritie admit all his religion Denie his supreme authoritie denie all his religion But it is not so of any limited and secondarie head or supreme gouernour in any particuler Churche of Christians That all articles or any article of fayth dependes on the Princes gouernement but the Princes gouernemeÌ„t depends on them to ouersee them duetifully set foorth And when the Reader séeth this that the Prince claymeth not an absolute Supreme gouernement and that it is your Pope onely that taketh this absolute Supromacie on him and you that giue it him then I trust the reader will not be so wonne with your fayre words which make fooles fayne as he wil abhorre your slaunders on your Soueraigne and detest the open iniurie ye offer to Chryst the onely head to make all Articles depende on your Popes supreme authoritie Nowe whereas for this ambitiouse clayme of your Pope ye alleage here nothing to fortifie the same ye thinke ye shall winne it yet at the least this way if with dispitefull raylings ye may beforehande discredite vs to the Reader and so winne credite to your selfe thereby Ye argue thus The Protestantes whom odieusly and falsly ye deuide into many sects are at mutuall and mortall enemitie among them selues but al conspire agaynst the primacie of the Pope Ergo a good resolution once had in this poynt stayeth and setleth the conscience as vvith a sure and strong anker from the insurgies and tempests of all sects and schismes This argument might as well make for Mahomets religion or any other neuer so false as for the Popes to reason from the aduersaries diuision among them selues or agréement of them selues agaynst his religion to a truthe and perfection in his false religion And thoughe the argument faile alike bothe in the Pope and the Turke yet it holdeth in Christes primacie and onely in him agaynst Pope Turke Sectarie or any other deuided from him Chiefly agaynst the Popish church wherin are diuers infinite sects errours and al at mutuall and mortall enmitie amongst them selues and yet all conspire with the Pope agaynst Christ and his truth Ergo a good resolution once had in Christ his truth stayeth and setleth the conscience as with a sure and strong anker from the insurgies and tempests of all sects and schismes This argument thus framed had bene better and truer and not to make the Popes supremacie or the exalting of any creature in heauen or earth to be the anker holde and stay of our consciences besides Christ and his truthe Which sithence all Papistes do by this your confession they can haue no good resolution resoluing them selues amisse leaning to a broken Réede Where they say Pax pax peace peace non est pax impijs dicit dominus there is no peace of conscience at all nor any sure ankerholde to stay vnto Maledictus qui confidit in boinine poâ—…it carnem brachium suum And therefore if Protestants yea al Sectaries or Schismatikes though they can not agrée amongst them selues yet if they all hate thys moste Antichristian doctrine to grounde their faythe on man no meruayle though they hate it it is so wicked and detestable that euen good and badde and all abhorre it After he hath taken this pro confesso that the anker holde of conscience consisteth in setling him selfe on the Popes primacie he reasoneth on the contrarie effecte Contrary vvise they that be once circumuented and decea ued in this Article are carryed and tossed vvith the raging vvaues and flouds of euery errour and heresie vvithoute stay or setling euen in their ovvne errours True in déede Master Stapleton if ye had rightly shewed withall what it had bene to be circumuented and deceyued in this Article otherwyse ye doe but lyke an vnskilfull and harebrayned Pilote herein that to auoyde the rocke thinketh him selfe sure and safe when he hath caste hys anker on the quickesandes or rather euen in the goulfes mouthe and so I warrant him also as you saye he shall not néede long to feare to bée caryed and tosted wyth the insurgies and tempestes of the ragyng waues and flouddes but soone be swalowed vp and drowned in them But Master Stapleton not considering or not mynding to warne the reader of this to much trusting to a false Pilote but to terrify him further wyth feare of forsakyng this Popishe ankerholde and to confirme thys argument of the contrarie effecte reasoneth from the instancies of dyuers ensamples And first of the Gréeke Churche arguing thus The Grecians forsooke the vnitie of the romaine Church Ergo they fell after to be Arrians Macedonians Nestorians Eutichians c. and in conclusion fell into the Turkishe captiuitie This argument besides other faultes hath chiefly two hoamely and foule fallations that make it vâ—…cious The one à secundum quid ad simpliciter from the Churche of Rome limitted to that tyme that it was not stayned with those errours to the Churche of Rome simplie that since that time hath falne it selfe partlye into some of those errours partly into other as great and many worse The seconde fallacion is à non causa vt causa for theyr fall was into those heresies not bicause they acknowledged not the Bishop of Rome to be their supreme heade for therein they had played like the Flownder that lept out of the frying panne into the fire but bicause they forsooke and peruerted the worde of God as the Papists since haue done and their â—…ares itched and aâ—…iended to the inuentions doctrines errors of men to lying masters as the papists haue done also This was the proper cause of their fall into these errors and of the Papists fal into the like or greater And where M. St. ioyneth to his
conclusion to make the sequele more dreadfull that after diuerse reconciliations with the Romaine Sea they fell into the Turkish captiuitie Why may it not as well be noted thereon that they neuer came into this extreme flanery of the Turke but their Empire continued aboue 1000. yeares till after those their reconciliatioâ—… made with the Pope then within 14. yeares they fell in the Turks captiuitie But of this more hereafter From the Gréek and â—…ast Church he procéedeth to the Affricanes making the like argument on them But to answere him briefly To reason thus from the vnitie of the Romaine Sea in fayth then to the obedience of the Romaine Sea in the supremacie nowe euery scholer will some say is a very good non seqâ—…tur The like common fallace à non causâ—… vt causâ—… he maketh of Hungarie and Lifelande fallen into the handes of the Turkes and Moscouites Bicause sayth he they forsooke the Pope and fell to Luther But if this argument be good demaunde of him how 〈◊〉 the â—…hodes Belgradum Buda and other cities and parts in Austria which likewise the Turk hath gotten be cleane forgetten here of him and not reckened vp in this number was it bicause they acknowledged none more than the Rhodians the Popes supremacie and yet fell into the Turkishe captiuitie so well as the other At the length he 〈◊〉 home to Englande and when he should here make the full conclusion of all these lamentable sequeles of reâ—…olt from the Romaine Sea in other Countreyes that the lyke shoulde lyghte on vs séeyng that his argumente contrarie to hys long and wycked hope doeth fayle in the conclusion least eyther hée shoulde shewe the follie of hys impertinent argumentes or vtter the vnnaturall malice that for his Pope and popishe religion he hath fostred long in his cankred breast agaynst his naturall prince and Countrey he turneth the Catte into the Panne not by concluding hys argument on the lyke issue to Englande but rawly and generally knitteth vp the matter thus But vvhat vvas the issue all the vvorlde knovveth and Englande the more pitie greeuously feeleth To this M. Stap I answere Thanks be giuen to God no suche isâ—…ue as you would conclude of other Countreys from errors and the Turke to vs It is you that abhorring the Gospell more than Turkerie feele this gréefe ye speake of for that your sequele holdeth no better in Englande Englande neither feareth the Turkes nor these your byous threates and would to God no parte of Christendome euen of those that you accounte moste Popishe catholike were no more subiecte to the inuasion and daunger of the Turkishe barbarous and Saraâ—…ins irruptions and tyrannie than Englande is and yet if God shoulde punishe any parte of Christendome by them though he vse by his secret Iustice their furie as a rodde to scourge their offences yet will not we nor may iustly make suche tragicall sequeles reasons to argue pro or contra on Religion as here you doe by these peoples to conclude agaynst vs But prayses be to God you can conclude nothing Englande euer since that through the Quéenes most excellent maiestie it hath enioyed the libertie of Gods moste holy worde hath maâ—…ger all your spites reioyced withall bothe tranquillitie wealth peace fréedome and aboue all things the fauour of God in Christ euen for that it hath escaped the spirituall bondage of your Pope farre worse than the bodily captinitie of the Turke God continue his mercy to vs and make vs thankfull for it Nowe since ye can not fasten any such sequele as ye wishe on Englande ye gather petite quarels and like a poâ—…her seeke corners to finde out some inconueniences not worthy answere And yet bicause ye resume them often times after and make muche ado about them as reading the Byble and other bookâ—…s suppressing Abbeys marriage of Priests oirginitie vovves no Church Byshops but Parliament Byshops the sacrament of the altare c. they are answered where ye handle them at large and not here whereye snatch at them Onely this your grosse lie I will note here about king Henries lawes Bicause ye cite it not that I remember any more Ye say that after his death and in the minoritie of his sonne king Edvvarde all the lavves that he had made touching matters of religion sauing against the supremacie vvere repelled and abolished What a manifest and impudent lie is this King Henrie besides the supremacie made lawes for the abolishing of shrines and pilgrimages of pulling downe Images of depressing popish sectaries Monks Friers Numies Heremits Anachores c. Were these lawes repelled and abolished after his death in the minoritie of king Edwarde Shewe it or else wipe your lippes for a foule lie hath beslabbered them Master Stap. All these former arguments and these extrauagant discourses consist on a wrong principle All this haue I spoken sayeth he to shevve it is most true that I haue sayde that there vvill neuer be redresse of error and heresie or any stay vvhere men are once gone from the vnitie of the Sea Apostolike vvhich is the vvell spring and fountaine of all vnitie in the Catholike fayth This false principle if we denie it him then all his arguments of absurdities and euents theron are not worth a rush But had he put in but one letter more and for vnitie had sayd vanitie it had bene a most true principle nor we woulde or coulde haue euer denyed the same The last reason of his Preface to leaue a pricke of discredite agaynst the Protestants in the readers minde is of our discorde and inconstancie in this question the assumption whereof being in déede nothing but slaunders of the prince the Realme and diuerse Godly learned men is partly sette out in his common place of slaunders and partlye shall be further particulerly aunswered as they come to hande in the booke where he discourseth on them Thus much for the pithe of all his argumentes conteyned in hys Preface to the Reader to winne hys minde to hys cause before hande and alienate it from ours but the wyse Reader wyll first reade or euer he giue his iudgement The answere to M. St. Counterblast on the Bishops Preface The first Deuision IN his answere to the B. Preface whereas the Bishop in the first Deuision for so M. Stapleton termeth euery seuerall portion that he answereth vnto sheweth the necessarie reasons that moued him to answere Master Feckenhams booke and the couert meaning of master Feckenham in secretly scatering his booke abroade that therein he shewed a further meaning than he durst plainely vtter and that the intent of the booke as might iustly be gathered was to engraft in the mindes of the subiects a misliking of the Q. maiestie as though she vsurped a power and authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters whereto she had no right to slaunder the whole realme as though it were estraunged and directly agaynst the Catholike Church tenouncing and refusing to haue communion therewith
ordinarie Glose sayth Nota quanâ—… assidâ—…itate legere debent Sacerdotes câ—… assidue legant reges Lectio ipsa est lux vitâ—… vnde verba qua ego loquor spiritus vita sunt Note with howe muche continuaunce the Priestes ought to reade the worde of God when Kings should reade it continually The reading is it selfe the lyghte and the life whereuppon sayth Christe the words which I speake are spirite and life Here M. Stapleton the lyfe lyes not as you sayde right nowe in the Priests exposition but in the word it selfe and the continuall reading thereof wherein not onely the Priest but the Prince is a kynde of Maister But are ye not right sure none of this is there neyther ye were best to say so for I perceyue ye haue an excellente grace to face downe a matter bée it neuer so playne and open Let vs nowe come to the fourthe and laste fault that he gathereth against the Bishop in this diuision whiche is also an vntruth as he saith in his margin the place of the Deuteronomie flady belied and adding this vnto the other before he saith This therfore may wel stand for an other vntruth as also that which immediatly you alleage out of Deu. 13. for in al that chapter or in any other of that booke there is no such worde to be founde as you talke of Uerily I beléeue our student M. St. had for studied himself in a lasie slumber and wrote this nodding half a sléepe for ful awake for pure shame he would neuer haue suffred such lewd lyes to scape his pen come in dropping thus one in an others necke as though he were at a poynte he cared not what he sayd neither against the playne truth nor against himselfe much lesse against the bishop Euery worde that the B. rehearseth in the last end of this diuision is fâ—…uÌ„d plainly exprest in the xiij and â–ª 17. of Deut. which chapters the Bishop quoted The wordes of punishing teachers of falâ—…e and superstitious religion and idolatrie in the former side of the leaf he grauÌ„teth himself to be in Deut. the. 13. Notwithstanding he forgetteth straight wayes what he sayd affirmeth on the other side of the leaf that there is no such word to be found But as he trippeth on the truth in the first side so on the other side of the same leaf he flatly falleth into a flat lye in both he tumbleth into a foule contradiction Moreouer in both sides he graunteth that by the. 13. of the Deut. The prince by his authoritie may punish teachers of falâ—…e religion superstition and idolatrie And may he do it withoute examining whether the doctrine wherewith the teacher is charged be true or false and being false whether he taught it or no Suche may be the order in the Popes consistorie but in Gods Courtes it is farre otherwise For God commaundeth Deut. 17. as the Bishop auouched the Prince when any is denounced vnto him to haue taught any false religion that he make diligent examination Quia noâ—… est procedendum ad sententiam sayth Lyra vpon these wordes fine diligeÌ„ti examinatione praeuia bicause he must not procede to giue sentence without diligent examination had before And this beeing found by the Princes diligent examination that he hath taughte false religion he shall be put to deathe The Bishoppes woordes comprehende all this The laste wordes also of the Bishops diuision to wete Et aufâ—…res malum de medio tui And thou shalt take away euil from among thee Are they not plainly set foorth in both those chapters So that a man might wonder that knewe not well Master Stapletons impudencie seeing that all the poyntes that the Bishoppe speaketh of in the later parte of this Diuision in the places of the Deuter â–ª aboue mencioned are so manifestly expressed with what face M. Stapleton can so boldly affirme that in al the â–ª 13. chapter or any other of that boke ther is no such word to be found as the bishop talketh of And thus with more than a full messe of notorious vntruthes to returne your owne conclusion M. Stapl. moste worthyly vpon your selfe ye haue furnished the firste seruice brought yet to the table concerning the principal matter howbeit perhappes though this be verie course yet you haue fine dishes and dayntie cates comming after Lette vs then proceede And as he sayth in the entrance of this diuision Go on I say in Gods name M. St. and prosecute your plea stoutely God send ye good speede and so he doth euen such as you and the honestie of your cause deserue and at the first entrie of your plea causeth you and your clerkly and honest dealing forthwith to your high commendation so to appeare that euen the firste authoritie that ye handle of all the holy Scripture playnly discouereth you and causeth you to be espied and openeth as well your fidelitie as the weakenes of youre whole cause the which euen with youre owne firste Counter blast is quite ouerblowen So fitly M. St. al these your owne words do serue against your selfe Diuision 11. IN this diuision the Byshop bringeth for his purpose two things first he alleageth generally that the beste and moste godly princes that euer gouerned Gods people did perceiue and rightly vnderstand that to be Gods will that they haue an especiall regarde and care for the ordering and setting foorth of Gods true Religion and therefore vsed great diligence with feruent zeale to performe and accomplishe the same Secondly for proofe héereof he entreth into his ensamples of the olde Testament beginning with Moyses that he was not the chiefe Priest or Byshop but the supreme gouernour or Prince and as chiefe gouernoure had the ordering of religion whiche he dutifully executed with great zeale and care To the former parte and generall assertion of the Bishop M. Stapleton only answereth by a marginall note saying Regarde and chiefe rule care and supreme gouernement are two diuers things â–ª Nowe forsoothe a solemne studied answere of a student in diuinitie he is a silly wise man that vnderstoode not thus muche before without this marginal note Too simple were he in déed that séeth they be not al one as he hath simply set them out But he that complained so late of curtalling and leauing out a materiall parte of the sentence whiche dooing he calleth vnfaithfulnesse sée howe vnfaithfully he hoffeth and curtalleth the Bishoppes sentence The Bishop spake not of simple care and reregarde but of an especiall care and regarde for the ordering setting foorth of Gods true religion With which assertion M. Stap. findeth no fault neither â—…y any worde goeth about to improue it and so sheweth himselfe to agrée therewith and by silence to confesse the truth thereof Now therefore let vs resolue the Bishops assertion and then consider thereon The Bishops assertion hath these thrée partes First that godly Princes ought to order and set forth Gods true
religion Secondly that they ought to doe this with an especiall regards and care Thirdely they perceyue and rightly vnderstande that it is Gods will they shoulde so doe Now since that this by master Stapletons déepe silence is agréed vpon betwixt the Bishop and him I make hereon this argument To order and set forth Gods true religion with especiall regarde and care is the Princes duetie But the only sort of gouernment that the Quéenes Maiestie doth chalenge and take vpon hiâ—… in ecclesiasticall causes is to order and set forth Gods true Religion with an especiall regarde and care Ergo Prinâ—… ought to take vpon them such gouernment as the Quéenes Maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir in ecclesiasticall causes And thus is the Bishops antecedent directly proued and so consequently the principall matter of M. Feck issue Nowe as the former part being the generall assertion to all the ensamples following is no whitte impeached by any aunswere of master Stap. to it but by silence whiche with him is an argument of confession graunted so like a very Counterblaster in déed he blusâ—…reth and puffeth at the seconde part as though he would all to blast it Moses sayth the Bishop was supreme gouernour ouer Gods people and was not chief priest or Bishop for that was Aaron Here master Stapleton denyeth not Moses to be the supreme gouernour but that he was not chiefe priest or Bishop he vtterly gainsayeth it It is an vntruth sayth he in his score for Moses was the chiefe priest as shall be prooued Here is a flat promise of proufe but I feare me it wil neuer be perfourmed neyther doth master Stapleton here go about the perfourmance of it And therefore the Bishops denial of Moses to be the chiefe Priest must stand for a truth till by prouing Moses to be the chiefe Priest he haue proued it to be an vntruth And in the meane time his promise must stande but for a crake as also his prowde entraâ—…nte into his Chapter That the Scripture by the Bishop alleaged reacheth nothing home but rather infringeth and plainely marreth the Bishoppes purpose and fullye standeth on our syde sayeth this student so greatly hath arrogancie sotted him He fareth as did the Souldiour who when his aduersarie had manye tymes in wrastling hurled him downe in the sighte of euerie stander by yet woulde hée neuer confesse that hée had anye fall yea most arrogantlye â–ª he styll affyrmed that hée had â—…ast the other And euen so playeth this student for this of wrastling is one of his common similitudes he contendeth to wrastle with the Bishoppe whiche is in verys déede as hée sayeth in this Chapter Impar congressus Achâ—…lls Troilus An vneuen matche betweene Troylus and Achilles What a number of â—…oule falles hée hath had yea howe hée hath béene ouerturned in hys â—…wne trippes is apparaunt to euery Readers eyes and goe no further but euen to hys last Chapter And yet sée howe hée craketh that all the Byshoppes allegations marre hys owne cause and fully stande on hys syde Where contraryewyse they haue drie beaten him backe bellie side and all And as hée thus fondely maketh vaunt of his former victorie â—…o I doubt nothing sayth he it will fare with his examples Well sayd of a student like an other Gawin he doubteth nothing But sée a sodaine qualme of hys inconstancie for euen streyght wayes after he hath cryed out all comes to shorâ—… he sayth but here am I shrewedly â—…ncombred and in a great doubt what to doe Whie master Stapleton are ye now so soone in a great doubt and right nowe as doeth bolde Bayarde doubted nothing and haue before alreadie without any stammering thereat clapped downe your marginall note for a full resolute aunswere that Moyses was the chiefe Priest and nowe doubt ye what to answere But master Stapleton hath so many weapons that he is shrewdly encombred with them as it were another armed Golias and yet one smal poebble stone will soone ease him of this encombrance He telles vs he hath so many aunsweres that he doubteth with which he should beginne for I could sayth he make a short but a true aunswere that these ensamples are fully aunswered alreadie by master D. Harding and master Dorman In déede master Stapleton this were a short aunswers but I sée your selfe feare as ye sayde before it woulde come to short and not reache home to the matter Yet say you if ye shoulde referre the Reader thither to his and your great ease it should be to the sparing not only of penne ynke and paper but of the time also which of all thinges is most precious It séemeth master Stapleton ye are a man of déepe casting these are good considerations of penne ynke paper and tyme. But whie followe ye not your owne councell whiche if ye had obserued and left out so many impertinent vagaries and other your trifling common places ye had saued more paper penne ynke and tyme by thrée halues than ye haue done And here as séeming full resolued to follow this aduise ye clappe downe another marginall note All master Hornes examples out of the olde Testament aunswered alreadie by master Doctour Harding and master Dorman Here sayth he is a shorte but a true aunswere To this shorte aunswere I aunswere againe All M. Doctor Hardings and M. Dormans answeres confuted alreadie by the B of Sarum and M. Nowell Here is another as short an answere as yours M. Stap. and a great deale truer whiche I remitte to the indifferent viewers of both their answeres Nowe might we both rest and breath vs from further answering of these ensamples and spare penue ynke paper and time also that he séemeth to accompt most precious But another thing was more precious vnto him and that was master Feckenhams hyre and his friendes largesse for so much Paper penne ynke and time spent about his booke and the gaine of the printed copies which the bigger volume it came vnto for he woulde not séeme a thréehalfepennie student the fatter exhibition it should yéelde and he séeme the greater clerke yea to go beyonde his masters And therefore there is no remedie he will spare neyther penne ynke paper time nor paynes also but that his Counterblast shall be blowne vp to so large and full a volume that it may encounter euen the best of theirs To whose answeres if he shoulde referre himselfe and saye no more thereto Then I feare me sayth he woulde steppe forth if not master Horne a good simple plaine man in his dealings yet some other ioly fine freshe pregnant wittie fellowe yea and bring me to the streightes which way so euer I did treade You are loath I perceiue master Stapleton to be brought into the streight way to treade aright therein for then your wrie treading woulde soone be espied But ye séeke crookes and shifting answeres for the nonce And lyke the vayne talkatiue Arrian Philosopher ye dispise the right reuerende and learned father calling
soone be espyed And that in swaruing from the hearing and obeying of the olde lawe of Moyses and the Gospell of Christe to all proportions of these peâ—…ons offices would be but an homely sequele to serue your â—…urpose and rather abase Christe than serue any thyng for Moyses to make him a Priest and a Bishop And where you make Chryste a fygure of Moyses to make Moyses also a Priest and a Bishoppe bycause Chryste is so the texte maketh a similitude from Moyses to Chryst onely in eyther béeing a Prophete and that the one Prophete and the other shoulde be heard and obeyed But you turne it topsie turuie and making Christes person represente Moyses person conclude thereon not onely Prophete but Priest and Bishop also which the texte citeth not nor any other mentioneth in the scripture that Moyses was priest and Bishop Nor the Priesthood of Christe was prefigured by Moyses priesthoode for that is a question whether Moyses were Priest at all or no but the Scripture expressely for Christes priesthoode testifyeth that Aarons Priesthoode in some respectes but chiefly Melchisâ—…decks were the onely fygures thereof and not any Priesthood of Moyses and therefore your selfe durste not flatly conclude before that hee was the chiefe Prieste but a highe Priest But dare ye saye the lyke of Christe he was a hyghe Priest but not the chiefe or hyghest Priest of all But when ye sawe a glimse that this inuersed argument could not proue Moyses to be a lyke Priest to Christ nor bishoppe at al nor that his béeing a Prophete tooke awaye the ensample of his Princely authoritie as ye did the residue so ye subtilly inuerte and folde vp the conclusion For where it shoulde haue falne out thus As Christe is of vs to hee hearde and obeyed as vvell in all matters Ecclesiasticall as temporall so vvas Moyses to bee hearde and obeyed of the Iewes in all matters and causes as well spirituall as temporall whiche were the playn conclusion yée come indreaming and saye in matters and causes as vvell temporall as spirituall as thoughe the â—…uestion were moued of temporall not of spirituall matters â–ª neither dare ye say all as ye did in the former part But if ye replie that ye ment all and so the proportion of your argument runneth and that I do ye wrong to charge ye with so lighte a matter since the indefinite is taken for the vniuersall maye not I replie agayne that ye doe the Bishop muche more treble wrong that so often call and make suche outcryes for thys syllable all when soeuer he concludes In matters so wel ecclesiastical as temporall Lo say you he leaueth out in all matters Ecclesiast and temporall Whiche althoughe it were no parte of his issue with M. Feckenham and yet he settes it downe oftener than ye woulde haue it though he be not in euery particular proofe bounde thereto yet sée howe thys hitteth your selfe that if ye leaue out this word All ye can make no good conclusion from Christe to Moyses at all Nowe when you haue thus Master Stapleton preferred Moyses before Christe ye crie out vnto the Bishoppe Shewe vs Master Horne any Prince in the newe Testamente so conditioned and endued and then make youre argument on Gods name Haue you made your argument on Gods name M. Stapleton or not rather in his name that exalteth himselfe aboue all that is called God when ye haue made the mayster serue as a fygure to the seruaunte to serue youre purpose But lette Moyses haue hys due estymation vnder Christe and hys especiall prefiguryng of Chryste also and all prerogatiues of dooyng any thyng for the tyme then by Gods especiall appoyntmente that Princes nowe can not doe Yet on Gods name maye anye man argue as the Bishoppe dyd that Moyses care and regarde béeyng the Prince of the Israelites in settyng foorthe and ryghtely orderyng Gods true religion then maye and is and oughte to be a paterne to all Christian Princes to care and regarde in setting foorth and rightely ordering Gods true religion nowe And what though in this coÌ„parison although in déed iâ—… be no comparison as you call it but an example any christian Prince that now is compared with Moyses be Impar congressus Achilli Troilus as vneuen a match as Troilus to contende with Achilles may not therefore a christian Prince followe Moses examples Why bring ye that Poets sentence M. St what Prince goeth about to coÌ„pare contend with Moyses and not rather submit them selues to his example heerein Ye slaunder christian Princes ye deface Christes glory ye belye Moyses ye skippe from Priest to Prophet from Prophet to Priest agayne to delude the bishops ensample and yet all this will not frame neither smoothly nor roughly to your purpose Whiche when ye perceiue leauing all these shifts of descant to infringe the authoritie of this first example that vrgeth you so sore that ye can not tell what to say vnto it but are driuen to the harde wall and that all store olde stuffe and new stuffe is cleane spent then as a desperate man ye quite denie all examples either of Moyses or of any that hereafter shall be alleaged and â—…ée for sanctuarie once agayne to the place of the Deuteronomie mentioned in the former diuision of the doubts arising betweene bloud and bloud plea and plea leprie and leprie to be determined by the priestes Iudge And héere clayming sanctuarie and remouing al examples And the lawier sayth say you legibus non exemplis iudicatur VVe muste iudge according to the precise rule of the lawe and not by examples extraordinary doings enforce no ordinary prescription or rule The ordinary rule of priests iudgements without whyes and what 's and suche other tryfling importune instances as ye are wont to make agaynst it by the lawe of Moyses and by your owne chapter before alleaged in doubtfull cases muste absolutely vpon payne of death be obeyed By this rule of the lawe you must measure all the examples following of kinges and princes vnder this laâ—…e Ye muste square your examples to the rule and not the rule to the examples vnlesse ye will make of the lawe of God Lesbiam regulam and bothe vnskilfully and vnorderly worke therwith And hereon as a ruled case ye set downe your marginall iudgement Men must iudge by lawe and not by examples If ye will not M. St. be iudged by examples wherefore do ye take vpon you to defende M. Feckenham and impugne the byshop For one of the foure meanes whereby he desireth to haue his issue proued and will be iudged by is practise which altogither ye wot standeth of examples and therfore the byshop proueth it by examples And if you will now flée from the authoritie of examples ye should at the beginning haue striken off one of those foure meanes to haue the issue proued by and not first to admit them and â—…id the byshop go on and say ye will yeelde also if he proue ought by
haue for warrant the expresse commaundement of God. So that by your wicked principle no good nor godly princes ought to be drawne into example for any other Princes to follow but naughtie and wicked Princes such as had so little any part or sparke of Moses glorie that they had not the spirit of God in them or at the least it is vncertaine whose spirite they had such as the people were not commaunded to heare them suche as had not Gods expresse commaundement for their doinges these are fitte examples with you for Princes to followe Thus do ye shew how ye haue heretofore yet still would abuse Princes making them so drunken with that cuppe of abhominations of the whore of Babilon that they might take ensample of no good nor godly Prince But let vs sée howe substantially ye proue your maior You reason by admitting the contrary thereto ab absurdo from a foule inconuenience that we should fall into by taking such Princes for example or else fall into a â—…oule contradiction agaynst our selues Else if ye will haue your examples say you to proue and confirme then as Iosue circumcided so let the Prince baptise and as Iosue sacrificed vpon an altare so let the Prince in Cope Surplesse celebrate your holy coÌ„munion But these two things as peculier offices of Bishops and Priests M Nowell excludeth flatly all Princes from yea and sayth they ought to be vntouched of Prince or other person Ergo thus agayne either ye iumble and iarre one from another or else your argument to bring Iosue for example to proue and confirme falleth downe righte choose whiche of bothe ye will. Héere is as M. Stap. thinketh a marueilous Dilemma and yet the absurditie therof moste easily anoyded and the contradiction as playnly turned vpon him selfe To the maior I answere that as the one did these things so dothe the other and therfore the one is a fit example of the other As Iosue then did circumcise so the Prince nowe baptiseth As Iosue did then sacrifice on an altare so the Prince doth now celebrate not ours as he scornefully termes it but the Lordes holy communion Neither of them by executing them selues the fact but by commaunding appoynting and ouerséeing the facte to be rightly executed by the ministers to whom the doing apperteineth And that this was Iosue his doing and not otherwise Lyra vpon these wordes Et primum quidem benedixit populo doth witnesse And first of all he blessed the people c. Non est intelligenduÌ„ quòd Iosue proprie loquendo benedixit populum quòd hoc pertinet ad sacerdotum officium sed imprecatus est bona populo tanquà m princeps populi post immolationeÌ„ praedictaÌ„ quam similiter fecit non per se sed per sacerdotes VVee must not vnderstand these words he blessed the people that Iosue in speaking him selfe did blesse them for this apperteyned to the Priestes office But Iosue as the Prince of the people wished well vnto them after the offring afore sayde whiche likewyse he did not by himselfe but by the Priestes And againe Posthac legit omnia verba c. Then afterwarde he reade all the wordes of the lawe the blessinges and cursings according to all that is written in the booke of the law there was not a worde that Moses had commaunded whiche Iosue read not before all the congregation of Israell as well before the women and the children as the straunger c. Non per se sed per sacerdotes vt praedictum est coram omni multitudinem Israel c. Not by him selfe but by the priestes as is before sayde afore all the multitude of Israell And euen as he thus read and blessed by his commaundement and their ministerie so saith Lyra fecit immolationem similiter he did offer sacrifice in like sort not by him selfe but by commaunding the minister to do it And do ye thinke that he circumcised all the whole people of Israell with his owne handes because the wordes are circuncidit filios Israel Do ye thinke bicause the bare wordes are Igitur Iosue de nocte consurgens mouit castra that he remooued all their tents with his owne handes and of the stones in Iordan alios quoque duodcim lapides posuit in medio Iordanis alueo that he set them in the riuer with his owne fingers Do ye thinke of the Citie and the King of Hai succendit vrbem fecit eam tumulum sempiternum regem quoque eius suspendit in patibulo he burnt the Citie and hee made it an heape for euer and the King thereof he hanged on a gallowes and of the other Kinges Iosue smote them and slewe them and hanged them on fiue trees all these thinges and a number of such other as well seruile as other deedes as well temporall as ecclesiasticall thinke you bycause still all runneth vnder his name and his doing that he did them hym selfe Or rather gather thereon that syth he did not these things himselfe and yet so well in ecclesiasticall as other matters all beareth the name alone of him it importeth his supreme gouerment and direction of them So little is there any absurditie in the comparison of these doings but your owne absurde mistaking and reasoning so absurdly on them not distinguishing betwene the doing of these things and the maner of doing them To the minor likewise I answere there is no contradiction iumbling or iarring betwene the Bishop and master Nowell therein For of the same minde that the one is is the other also as the Bishop hath declared many times in his answere euer obseruing this destinction betwéene the doing of the fact and the ouersight in appoynting the fact to be done But this of a peuish selfe will ye will not vnderstande And so here bicause the wordes are simplie spoken that Iosue did such things ye vnderstande it that personally he executed the doing of them But what now if you doe contrarie your owne selfe and talking after of this same partie confesse that the doing of these and such like things â–ª must be vnderstoode by this sayde maner of anothers ministerie May ye not then most worthely here your owne wordes returned on your selfe that your argument falleth downe right if euer it stoode vpright your selfe in playne spéeche hurling it downe and that eyther here or there yée speake agaynst your owne conscience your owne sayings iumbling and iarring one from another and so ye encurre eyther the absurditie or the contradiction choose which of both you will. The. 13. Diuision The next ensample of the Byshop is of Dauid how God appoynted him king not onely for the people to liue in ciulâ—… peace and honesâ—…ie but chiefly that by Dauids gouernment care and zeale therein they mighte be fosâ—… red vp in Gods true religion decayed among them by the negligent reigne of king Saule This the Eyshop proued by king Dauids Actes in ordering disposing reforming the
ye bryng hym foorthe to better purpose or else whyle yee thynke by clawyng hym thus to wynne hys good fauour yee gette hys heauy displeasure and that he answere ye flatly non hercule veniam tertio he will not come at your cal Howbeit ye will once agayne in hope of better lucke bring him foorth and alleage his authoritie better than ye haue done hitherto Besides that say you it is to be considered as M. D. Harding toucheth that he passed other Princes herein bicause he had the gifte of prophecie So that neither those thinges that the Apologie sheweth of Dauid or those that ye and master Nowell adde therevnto for the fortification of the sayde superioritie can by any meanes induce it This friuolous argument he was a Prophet also aswell as a Prince Ergo his superioritie in that he was a Prince can not be alleaged for other Princes to followe ye vsed before as your owne freshe stuffe to shifte off Moses ensample but as it nothing helped your cause then no more dothe it nowe Onely it detecteth héere your vayne crake there of vnspent stuffe where in déede it was olde rotten stuffe spent before by D. Harding on king Dauid as héere your selfe coÌ„fesse yet there ye brought it as a notable fresh surplusage beyonde all that had bene sayde But as you thus of D. Hardings olde scroppes héere would haue made vs there newe fresh stuffe of your owne wherby the alleaging of him agayne this third time openeth your shame so yet once agayne ye make your M. D. Harding and your selfe for companie confounde your owne tales and speake contrarie to your selues Right now ye sayde and alleaged your masters authoritie for it that king Dauids doings were no more than Queene Maries doings to employ a supremacie Nowe ye say agayne and like wise alleage your master for it that king Dauid passed other princes heerein bicause he had the gifte of prophecie If he passed other princes héerein then he passed Quéene Mary whome many other Princes haue also héerein passed and so his doings were more than were Quéene Maries doings héerein For who knowe not that she was no Prophete and thus the oftner ye alleage your master ye take your master tardie in one lie or another and make him still contrarie both himselfe and his cause also Againe it King Dauid were a Prophete as I graunt he was a Prophete ye wote might and did determine doctrine but your selfe sayde before Dauid in all his doings determined no doctrine and thus ye lie on your owne head and make your master witnesse thereto Well leaue at the length to cite your masters authorities for shame master Stapleton since ye can bring them out no handsomer or howe well so euer ye haue brought them out to your aduantage since they be no better proues than that He affirmeth he noteth he toucheth as though all were gospell that master Doctor Harding affirmeth noteth or toucheth Are ye so fond to thinke any man would yéelde so soone vnto them vnlesse he were as wise as your selfe But since none of all these reasons will serue we shall now haue other stuffe of your owne though not very fresh but such stale refuse as your masters haue refused but to you all is fishe that commes to nette ye do wisely to let go nothing that maye any waye be wrested to helpe so yll a cause And first ye reason from the authoritie of the scripture In déede this is a better way than to reason from D. Hardings authoritie The Scripture say you in the sayde place by you and master Nowell alleaged sayth that Dauid did worke iuxta omnia quae scripta sunt in lege dominâ—… according to all things written in the lawe of God. What conclusion can ye inferre hereon agaynst the Bishops allegation of Dauid Ergo he had not an especiall care and regard in ordring and setting forth Gods true religion if ye make the quite contrarie conclusion He did worke according to all things written in the lawe of God Ergo as the B. sayth he had an especiall care and regard in ordring directing Gods true religion then should ye make a most true conclusion where otherwise rightly applied it can no ways serue your turn Thus bring ye out that which once again ouerturnes your cause and proues K. Dauids supreme gouernmeÌ„t And euen so the Q. Maiestie by this ensample of K. Dauid is taught to do the like as praysed be to god for hir therfore she foloweth wel herein the steps of K. Dauid doing iuxta omnia quae scripta suÌ„t in lege domini according to all things written in gods law And where the papists in al their errors this amoÌ„g other of the supremacie do praeter coÌ„tra omnia quae scripta sunt in lege domini besides against all things writteÌ„ in gods law As Dauid redressed eccl. disorders crept in before his time so the Q. highnes now hath redressed such disorders as she fouÌ„d before hir time crept in Thus the more ye reason the more stil ye make against your selfe Ye had néed adde some better stuffe thaÌ„ this or els if ye thus hold on your friends wold wish M. Fec had hired ye to hold your peace when he first moued you to plead for him Master Stap. séeing it now more than high time to adde some notable thing to better his cause VVherevnto I adde sayth he a notable saying of the scripture in the sayd booke by you alleaged concerning Dauids doings by you brought foorth touching the Priestes and Leuits Vt ingrediantur domum dei iuxta ritum suum sub manu Aaron patris corum sicut prâ—…ceperat dominus deus Israel King Dauids appoyntment was that the Leuits and Priestes should enter into the house of God there to serue vnder the gouernment of whome I pray you not of King Dauid but vnder the spirituall gouernment of their spirituall father Aaron and his successours The gouernour of them was Eleazarus Upon this notable sentence for your purpose as ye thinke you gather thrée notes And bicause ye would go orderly ye begin first with the last note VVhere we haue to note first say you that Dauid appoynted hereto the Leuits nothing of himself But sicut praeceperat dominus deus Israel as the Lorde God of Israel had before appoynted VVe haue here againe to note first in you M. Stap. no plaine dealing that begin with the last part of the sentence first And wherefore I pray you but that that which is spoken here of this matter in especiall ye woulde make it séeme to serue for all Dauids doings in generall VVe haue to note againe your hacking and wresting of this sentence which sheweth a playne destination betweene theyr turnes of comming in and their ordinarie ministerie in theyr turnes in attending on the highe priest The text is thus â—…ae vices eorum secundum ministeria sua vt ingrediantur domum domini iuxta ritum
the marke many tymes than from it But séeing ye deale so vneuenly with the Bishops other shottes for all your bellowing short shorte it hittes not the Butte it commes not home ye giue all standers by suspition of falâ—…e ayme in this shotte and therefore let vs measure it once againe The deposing of Abiathar saye you doth not employ that Salomon was chiefe ruler in all ecclesiasticall causes I pray you who was then chiefe ruler in all ecclesiasticall causes Abiather say you And wherefore he bicause he was the highest Priest or Byshoppe therefore the chiefe rule of them was in him Doth it not then followe if he depose him in whome is all the rule that all this rule is yet restrayned vnder hys higher rule that deposeth him For the more manâ—…fest ensample of our time If I aske in whom the chiefe rule of all ecclesiastical causes is now in the Pope say you wherfore say I bâ—…cause say you he is the hiest Priest or Bishop and therefore he hath the â—…yest rule of all ecclesiasticall causes Well say I if the Emperouâ—… nowe woulde go aboute to cite the Pope to iudge him and tell him he is the childe of death for not acknowledging his olde obedience to him and so deposing hym bydde him departe and meddle no more with that Byshoprike the Emperour can not doe this say you for then the Pope in all ecclesiasticall causes shoulde be the Emperours inferiour if the Emperour might depose 〈◊〉 bicause when he is deposed by the Emperour from all his chiefe rule all his chiefe rule is translated from him and so were hée vnder the Emperour and all his chiefe rule at the Emperours disposition to giue to another But thys saye you were suche a fowle inconuenience as the lyke can not bée And therefore the Emperour can not depose the Pope but the Pope the Emperour This is your common reasoning Wherein doe ye not sée howe the graunting of the deposition of the chiefe Priest inferreth a hyer rule and authoritie in the deposer ouer the deposed in euerie prerogatiue that the partie deposed had before he was deposed But then will ye say the Prince that deposed the highest Priest may not he doe all those matters that the priest might haue done if hée bée the chiefe ruler of them It is one thing master Stapleton to be the chiefe ruler in and ouer all those ecclesiasticall causes that the partie deposed myghte haue done and to bée the chiefe doer or executioner of them For example the Prince maketh an Admirall or chiefe ruler ouer hys Seas a President or Deputie ouer hys Marches a chiefe Iustice or Chauncellour ouer hys lawes c. These Officers agayne the king deposeth the deposition of them is an argument that in all those thinges the King is the chiefe ruler And although the King can not doe anye of those thinges that belong to their Offices yet is that no impayring of hys chiefe rule ouer them and all thinges in theyr offices And therefore hée transferreth the doing to them that better can or wyll doe those offices And so likewyse in the chiefe office of priesthood admitting there were such an one now in all ecclesiasticall causes though the prince can not do all those ecclesiasticall actioÌ„s nor any one of them yet grant the prince that he may depose that chiefe priest to whome the doing of them appertaineth ye graunt with all that he is the chiefe ruler of all those ecclesiasticall things so farre forth as the rule of ouersight gouernance and directing stretcheth vnto which is aboue the ministeriall executing Nowe as youre selfe haue confessed the prince is the causer and the prieste the executor and doer which likewise his name importeth and therefore is called minister whiche name though the prince haue also yet he hath it as your selfe haue likewise confessed in a higher respecte bicause he is Gods especiall minister to ouersée directe dispose and depose all other ministers And thus graunting the ensample euen but of this one facte of Salomon for our princes to followe to depose in their realmes any one whatsoeuer highest or lowest priest it not only hitteth home the butte yea and the pricke to set vp by master FeckeÌ„ham but this one facte of Salomon and the like of christian princes now employeth a chiefe rule of ouer sight and direction though not of executing in al ecclesiasticall causes besides whatsoeuer appertayneth to the parties office that may be so deposed as Abiathar was by Salomon The vntruth that ye note in the end of this ensample is orderly aunswered in your beadrolle The. 15. Diuision TThe Bishop in this diuision alleadging the example of king Iosaphat chiefly of two visitatioÌ„s set forth by him 2. Paral. 17. and. 19. how he reformed religion through out all his dominions appointed preachers and setters foorth of Gods lawe and Iudges in all causes aswell ecclesiasticall as temporal coÌ„cludeth his supreme gouernment herevpon To this Master Stap. counterblasâ—…eth As M. Doctour Harding and M. Dorman haue written so say I that yee are they which frequent priuate hilles aulters and darke groues that the scripture speaketh of VVherein you haue set vp your Idols that is your abhominable heresies In that ye say master Stapleton As they say so say I ye shewe howe well ye haue learned your lessons thus one of another to say what soeuer your master sayd before you and take your bare so saying for proufe good inough But as ye fondly flatter your selues with your owne sayings so more fondly ye obtrude them as principles to your aduersaries that will by and by bid ye either proue them or else will they still estéeme them as they are for mere lying sayings of a knot of thrée false confederates the master his two schollers to outface delude the manifest truth withal And if these your masters sayings and yours hap to become wordes of course then beware you on whose side they are lykest to light that haue mainteyned so open Idolatrie and diuerse false worships of God that he did neuer institute After this master Stapleton drawing néerer to the matter admitâ—…eth this example of King Iosaphat VVee also confesse sayeth he that there is nothing written in the holye Scripture of Iosaphat touching his care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters but that godly Princes may at this day do the same doing it in such sort as Iosaphat did Holde ye here master Stapleton and we aske no more of you Ye haue here frankly confessed two things First the care and diligence that Iosaphat had aboute the directing ecclesiasticall matters Which care and diligence was the Bishoppes first proposition nowe twise alreadie graunted by you what followed thereon ye haue heard before alreadie Secondly that godly Princes may at this day doe the same doyng it in such sort as Iosaphat did Herevpon I conclude this argument As Iosaphat did in directing ecclesiasticall matters so doth the Queenes maiestie
then shall ye finde the sort and manner of the doings of the one Prince and the other alike and so I conclude with your owne conclusion Thus the example of Iosaphat fitteth well Christian Princes he vsing the same supreme gouernment then that the Quéenes Maiestie now doth nor ye can alleage any thing to the contrary but certaine manifest slaunders Whervpon it followeth that the Q. taketh none other authoritie vpoÌ„ hir than Iosaphat did and all godly Christian Princes ought to doe the like the one ensample fitting the other euen as your selfe confesse Now that M. St. by this most cleare confession graunt hath yelded so farre in this example that he hath contraried not only M. Dor that denied it to be a fit example froÌ„ Kings in the old law to kings in the new but contrary also to himself that denied before any example at al to be fit telling vs that legibuâ—… non exemplis iudâ—… atur Men must iudge by lawes and not by examples And here he sayth that this example fits well christian princes thereon hath concluded already the full matter in question neither â—…e can find any thing in the Q. maiestyes doings swaruing from Iosaphats but certain of his owne mere slauÌ„ders he startleth and besturreth himself with euery tristing quarrell picking fault at traÌ„slations at the print of the letter such like things to occupie the readers head withall least he should perceiue marke how the weight pith of the matter is alredy graunted and concluded by his owne mouth confession And here he chalengeth the B. with wretched shameful bandling of the holy scriptures This is a sore fault indéed if it were true but how proueth he this First promising verye sadly in his preface sayth he to cause his authors sentences for the part to be printed in latine letters here coursing ouer three seuerall chapters of the 2. of Paralip he setteth not downe any one part or worde of the whole text in any latine or distinct letter but handleth the scriptures as pleaseth himselfe translating mangling and belying them beyond all shame For the translation we shall sée afterward M St. what you chalenge therin in the mean season we may well sée how hard it goeth with you in that ye are faine to séeke such brabling matters as this which is but a petit quarel and that false also The Bishop euen as your selfe confesse did but course ouer that is did but touche the summe effect of those matters not set out word by word the text as he hath not chauÌ„ged the letter hitherto in the like doing ye find no fault there with Neither did the B. bind him selfe in translating to euery worde but so to set out their minds seÌ„teÌ„ces which word minds ye haue left out also for these words for the most part ye haue put in for the part Thus do ye order the Bishops sentence in setting it foorth in a distincte letter as though he had so said which in déede is the part of wretched and shamefull handling and belying beyond all shame especially to vpbrayde it to another to shewe the more impudeÌ„cie of your selfe therin As for the Bishop only shewing the effect of the matter and not the words nor going about there to translate at al it was lawfull for him to vse his common print his promise still obserued when he translated any thing You youre selfe vse this commonly in translating not onely to kéepe your ordinarie forme of letter but therby to haÌ„dle the scrip ture as it pleaseth you But now in this the Bishops summarie draught out of all those three aforesayde chapters let vs sée what it is that ye chalenge him for so sore He telleth vs say you of the kings visitours of a progresse made in his owne person through out all his countrey and of Iustices of the peace whereas the texts alleaged haue no such words at all It is easie to sée howe enuy or proud follie blindeth thys maÌ„ that reprehendeth the Bishop as missetelling the effect of a sentence and him selfe in distincte letter going about to set out the Bishops words as he did before cannot or will not repeate the same aright were these the bishops words kings visitors Iustices of the peace â–ª the bishops words wer these He seÌ„t forth through his kingdom visitors again he appointed in euery towne through out his kingdome as it were Iustices of the peace Why will ye say thys is al one it is so in effecte master Stapl. and so they were the kings visitours But yet should you here tell the bare wordes that the Bishoppe alleaged and if you may be blamelesse in saying you tell the effect summe of the sentence may not then the same saying bishop also and a gret deale more bicause as ye say he did but course ouer three chapters briefly and therefore coulde not easily expresse the bare texts But you might easily noting but two or thrée little sentences haue set them downe playne I speake this the rather for that that followeth Ye say the bishop telleth of Iustices of the peace The bishop only said as it were iustices of the peace as who should say suche officers then as a man might liken to our petit iudges or iustices of the peace now But thus ye euer loue to wrest the Byshops words that ye may make the feater entrance into one of your common places saying Verily suche a tale he telleth vs that his ridiculous dealing herein were it not in Gods cause where the indignitie of his demeanour is to be detested were worthily to be laughed at Are the stories of the Scripture become tales to this Louanist are the visitations and progresse of this godly king that right nowe was with him a fitte ensample for christian princes become now ridiculous dealing and worthily to be laughed at or indignities to be detested suche were in déede the Popishe visitations As for that the byshop citeth is manyfest in the scripture The king sent out his Princes and preachers as the summe of the chapter in your olde translation sayth mittit praedicatores per vniuersam Iudeam he sendeth on t preachers throughout all Iewry Whervpon Lyra noteth hic ostenditur qualiter populum suum instruxit scilicet per sacerdotes Leuitas quos ad hoc misit cum eis aliquot de principibus suis vt populum inducerent ad obedientiam punirent rebelles si quos inuenirent Heere is declared how he instructed his people to wite by the Priests and Leuites whom he sent to this purpose and with theÌ„ certaine of his Princes to moue the people to obedience and to punish the rebellious if they should finde any Is it ridiculous or detestable dealing herein to name these parties visitours sent from the king were they not sent to him to visite the people reforme theÌ„ in religion Againe the bishop said he made a progresse
farre forth as pertaineth to the ten commaÌ„dements of the tables If it be of the commaundement so farre forth as pertaineth to the other moral points if it be of the precepts of the ten commandements as it were certaine conclusions piked out if it be of the ceremonies so farre forth as pertayneth to ceremoniall matters of iustifications that is to say of iudiciall matters whereby iustice is to be conserued among men Thus is there no parte ecclesiasticall or temporall exempted from the ouersight care directioÌ„ appointment of the king No not the iudgement that ye haue so often alleaged and craked vppon out of the Deut. 17. vnder the which as a generall rule for all examples to be ruled by ye would subdue the Prince vpon paine of death to obey the absolute determination of the priest Euen this same office and all other with all causes to them belonging so farre as stretcheth to the ouersight and supreme gouernment do belong to the Prince to appoint and ordeyne fitte parties to displace and remoue vnfitte parties to sée al these offices so well as any other temporall obserued kept and executed dutifully Which is not so much for the persons as for the persons offices And therefore Iosaphat not only appointed them by his authoritie or regiment as Lyra saith their offices but also he told theÌ„ how they should do their offices Nay say you to each your matter yet with an other shift He doth it not with threates of his highe displeasure or by force of his owne iniunctions but onely saith so then doing you shall not sinne or offende The which very manner of speache christian Emperours and Kinges haue eftâ—…ones vsed in the like case as we shall hereafter in the thirde booke by examples declare Euen in the examples that ye shall there declare M. St. ye shall finde both threates of high displeasures and the iniâ—…nctions also of many godly princes And therefore seing that ye coÌ„pare their doings alike why say you these doings of Iehosophat haue no threates nor iniunctions what call ye this did he not threate them trowe you when he saide Ne veniat tra super vos super fratres vestros Least wrath come vppon you and vppon your bretheren Whiche woordes ye ouerhipped He denouÌ„ced vnto them the wrath of God which declared his great zeale and care of Gods matters as the Bishop saide And thinke you that the high displeasure of God conteyned not this godly Princes high displeasure also do ye suppose that they drad not the Princes high displeasure in the breache of their dueties bicause he threateth them with Gods moste high displeasure Or thinke ye it was not so forcible as any iniuÌ„ctioÌ„ of his vnto them in that as your selfe say he charged them and as the text saithe Praecepit eis he commaunded them which is most plaine and euident to signifie that he enioygned them by his supreme gouernment ouer them And to shew that besides his charge his commaundement his threate of Gods most high displeasure they should incurre his high displeasure also if they or any other disobeyed Lyra saithe on his former visitation Hic oftenditur qualiter c. Here is declared after what sorte he instructed his people to wite by the Priestes and Leuites whom he sent to this purpose and with them certaine of his Princes to bring the people to obedience and to punish the rebelles if they should finde any And of this visitation also saith Lyra He appointed Zabadias to be ouer those workes that belong to the Kinges office that if any rebelles were found they should by him be chastized with due punishmeÌ„t Doth not this import the Kinges highe displeasure in the breach of these his appointments charge coÌ„maundment when he adioyned those that should punish the disobedient Now whereas the Bishop briefly noted all this how King Iosaphat appointed the Priestes to decide and iudge controuersies you snatch thereat and clappe downe thereon a marginall note Yea the Priestes iudged not the king say you ouerskipping that the King appointed them thereto which argueth his supreme gouernment And yet the King iudged also by his deputie not the Priest alone And so saith plaine the texte In Hierusalem quoque constituit c. And Iosaphat appointed also Leuites and Priestes and the Princes of the families of Israel Here M. St. he appointed as well the lay Princes as the Priests And wherto vt Iudicium causam domini iudicarent that they should iudge the iudgement and cause of the Lorde Sée how plaine this is against you but what is there not that ye will spare to wrest to make it sée me to serue your turne For eueÌ„ of the last sentence ye thinke in the ende ye haue gotten so notable a proufe for your matter that greatly ye vrge it and wonderfully triumph therevppon Thus saith say you King Iosaphat Amarias the priest and your Bishop shall haue the gouernment of such things as appertaine to god And Zabadias shal be ouer such workes as appertaine to the kinges office Lo say you the kings office and diuine matters are of distinct functions Lo say I how sone ye would coÌ„clude a lie Your text saith not the kings office and diuine matters are of distinct functions Nor maketh any opposition or distinction betwene the kings office and diuine matters as though it appertained not to the kings office to haue any thing to do with diuine matters Contrary to the which your own coÌ„fession euen in this kings doings witnesseth against you that he reformed religion and had a care and diligence about the directing ecclesiasticall matters And trow you he did this beyond the bouÌ„des of his office How can then his example as ye say fitte well christian princes if it be not a parcell belonging to their office the text is plaine that the king appointeth as wel the Bishop Amarias his gouernmeÌ„t as Zabadias his gouernmeÌ„t to the one to haue the gouernmeÌ„t of such things as appertaine to God to the other to be ouer such workes as appertaine to the king Here in these two such things on the one partie and such workes on the other partie is the distinction made and not betwene the kings office and diuine matters as you falsely conclude And yet I pray you what argument can ye gather herevppon The kings office diuine matters are of distinct functioÌ„s Ergo the King hath no supreme gouernment ouer all ecclesiasticall causes By the like reason he hath no supreme gouernment ouer temporall causes neither For the kingeâ—… office his temporall subiects matters are not they also distinct functione Ergo the king hath no supreme gouernmeÌ„t ouer his temporall subiects matters Againe ye reason thus Thus saith the king the priest shall gouerne in those things that belong to God. Ergo to ouersee the Priests gouerne them rightly appertayneth not to the kinges gouernment Where in deede you should rather reason the quite
the kings office is a distinct function from the Priests neither impugneth the byshops assertion nor the princes supreme gouernement Conclude this M. Stap. agaynst them that confounde their offices The other parte of your conclusion that the kinges office medleth onely with the common weale by which ye meane onely the ciuill policie and hath nothing to do with any matters perteyning to God or euer ye shall directly proue it on this or any other place in the whole scripture it will finde ye somewhat more to do than ye suppose it will. As for the kinges intermedling with Gods matters your selfe before haue graunted a king may intermedle and be no breaker nor enimie to Gods order And that euen this king Iosaphat vsed a care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters that he reformed religion and that godly christian Princes may at this day do the lyke This your selfe haue already graunted And is all this no intermedling dothe it not rather proue he intermedled that as supreme gouernour thereof yea euen ouer the Priestes them selues to whome that charge of doing those matters is committed and yet he neither breaketh the order appoynted by God nor is become an enimie to Gods holy ordinance Ye say it was Gods ordinance and appoyntment what followeth it was not therefore the Princes ordinance and appoyntment also as though these were contrary and coulde not stande togither the one vnder the other the ordinance of God and the ordinance of the king Put case the Priest had ordeined it might it not haue béene Gods ordinance too but the priest ordeined it not but the prince Ergo the Prince immediatly ordeyning it vnder God sheweth that he hath an immediate power vnder him euen aboue the Priests Of whome are these words so precisely spoken he appoynted he commaunded he sayde it shall be so thus shall ye do c was it the Prince or was it the Priest Did Amarias commaunde Iehosaphat or Iehosaphat commaunde Amarias and all the other Priestes and Leuites who is the supreme gouernour of the twaine the commaunder and appointer or he that is commaunded and appoynted Untill therefore that ye can proue that the high Priest Amarias commaunded and appoynted vnto King Iosaphat these things and that the king did not commaund nor appoynt these things to the Priest and Bishop euerie man that hath any vnderstanding will easily perceyue and iudge that the Prince was the Priestes supreme gouernour next vnder God both ouer his person and ouer the thing also wherein he appoynted and commaunded him But sée your constant dealing in this matter â–ª before you made the gouernance of the thing to be more than the gouernance of the person And here as though it were a greater matter to gouerne the person you say If he take vpon him the supreme gouernment thereof euen ouer the Priests themselues to whom the charge is committed Againe before you sayde that Iosaphats dealings were rather with persons than with matters ecclesiasticall But now ye exempt the persons to saying If he take vpon him the supreme gouernment euen ouer the Priests themselues c. he passeth the boundes of his office And thus although for a while ye would shift off the matter by séeming to graunt somwhat to bleare the reader withall yet in the ende contrary to your former graunt ye eaâ—…e your worde and debarre the Prince of all both for matter and persons to But thankes be to God this insample of Iosaphat is so plaine that all these fetches and shiftes that ye are dryuen vnto can so little any way improue his supreme gouernment that euery thing which ye bring agaynst it maketh more and more for it Such is the force of the truth and so doth falsehoode in his owne trippe still ouerturne it selfe The. 16. Diuision THe Bishop alleaging the example of king Ezechias fiâ—…st sheweth what great commendation for his godly gouernment in reforming religion the scripture attributeth vnto him Secondly how he called togither the clergie telleth them their faults declareth to them the wrath of God exhorteth commaundeth them to do their dueties in clensing themselues in making their sacrifices and appointeth their offices prouideth them conuenient portions to liue by and that in all things the clergie and the people obeyed the Kings commaundement which argueth his supreme gouernment ouer all ecclesiasticall persons and causes To this master Stapleton aunswereth first on the olde warrant of his good masters wordes by reiecting all this as insufficient Here is nothing brought in by you sayth he or before by the Apologie as M. Dorman and M. D. Harding do well aunswere that forceth the surmised soueraigntie in King Ezechias but that his power and authoritie was readie and seruiceable as it ought to be in all prynces for the execution of things spirituall before determined not by him as supreme head newly established How well or yll master Stap. your masters haue aunswered this obiection and are aunswered againe is apparant and easie to be iudged by viewing both their answeres Howbeit vnto their wel doings for feare they should not fal out so well as ye pretend you haue done well also to better their answeres with the surplusage of your new stuffe And if it were graunted you M. Stap. that those things which Ezechias did had not bene by him as supreme heade newly established would it folow therevpon that they were not by him as supreme head or gouernour newly reformed neyther hauing bene some of them of olde established before by the priests negligence hauing long time bene corrupted But what letteth why they may not also be sayde to haue bene by him newly established being quite decayed before And so sayth Lyra of the ioy at the great passeouer that long time had ceassed Propter quod quado Ezechias eam renouaeuit fuit maior exultatio quòd noua placent delectant For the which cause wheÌ„ Ezechias renued it there was greater reioising for bicause new things do please and delight So that to them it was a newe establishing But was the brasen serpent pulled downe and destroyed euer before as other Images and hill aulters had béene was the feast of the passeouer euer chaunged before was that order of collations euer ordeyned before was this the Leuites doings of the Priests partes euer done before So that at the least some of these doings were by him newly established and neuer done before but as the necessitie of the time was then so were they commaunded to be done by him and well allowed of God. Yet say you they were not newly established by him as supreme hed but his power authoritâ—…e was ready seruiceable for the execution of things spiritual before determined But if these things were not before determined I pray you master Stapleton whose executioner was he then neither the priests nor the prophets had before determined that he should do or commaund to be done these things
to the Passeouer whereto the Iewes obeyed Ut facerent secundum prâ—…ceptum Regis principum verbum Domini To doe the worde of the Lorde after the commaundement of the king and of the Princes bicause there were not Priestes clensed inowe the Leuites did that whiche by the lawe belonged onely to the Priestes offices But by whose authoritie did they it had God commaunded it by the handes of his Prophetes had Moses Dauid or any other so disposed it before or dyd they it héere of their owne brayne No sayth Lyra it was done de mandato Regiâ—… by the kinges commaundement They also that were vncleane did eate of the Passeouer which according to the law ought to haue bene eaten only of the cleane But they were sayth he dispensed with for the necessitie And how the king him selfe that was the commaunder and doer of these things contrary to the law for necessitie sake made a prayer for them to the Lord and he heard him and was pleased therwith Thus did God accept these dealings of the king in ecclesiastical matters and allow his authoritie in commaunding disposing them And as he was the chiefe orderer and directer of all these things so it followeth in the. 31. chapter howâ—… he directed all other things about the Priestes And therefore sayth Lyra theron Cumque haec fuissent â—…ite celebrata c. Hic consequenter sub Ezechia discribitur reparatio sacerdotalis ministerij c. VVhen these thinges were orderly celebrated c. Here consequently is described vnder Ezechias the repayring of the priestly ministerie about which is first described the destroying of Idolatrie where the text sayth And they brake the Images c. And this by good reason bicause that first the impediments of the Priestly ministerie ought to be remoued c. SecoÌ„dly the repairing of the priestly ministery is described c. where Ezechias first restored the priests and Leuites in their offices Secondly he prouided theÌ„ of victuals Thirdly he ordeined in these things procurators for theÌ„ c. And thus all the doing not onely ouer the temporaltie but ouer al the clergie so far as apperteineth to the chief gouernmeÌ„t vnder God in ordring appoynting coÌ„manding directing prouiding belonged to K. Ezechias And in the ende hereof the scripture giueth him this coÌ„mendation fecit ergo Ezechias vniuersa c Ezechias therfore did all the thinges that we haue spoken of through all Iuda and he wrought that which was good and right true before the Lorde his god in al the works that he begaÌ„ for the seruice of the house of God bothe in the lawe and in the commaundementes he sought his God and did the same with all his heart and it succeeded prosperously In like case God be praysed maugre your mightie Zenacheribs head triple crowne with al your blasphemous raylings that play the parte of Rabsaces to robbe the peoples harts from the Lorde their God froÌ„ their duetyfull obedience to their princes supreme authoritie the Lorde hath prospered blessed the Q. Maiestie in following this godly Princes steps in reforming or newly establishing Gods true religion decayed as this good king Ezechias did And therfore as are all the residue of these your séely shifts in this example so is your conclusion no whit agaynst hir highnes doings and but slaunderous lies on hir Maiestie and craking lyes on your selues saying This is farre from enacting a new religion by force of supreme authoritie contrary to the coÌ„mandement of God declared by the bishops priests the onely ministers of God now in spiritual matters as Prophets were then in the like And this ye clappe vp for ful conclusion to all the doings of king Ezechias To which conclusion before I answere I haue to detect one pretie shift of yours muche practised in your volume WheÌ„ ye should haue answered to the doings of king Dauid ye then sent vs hither to the doings of king Ezechias now when ye come to the answere of king Ezechias ye sende vs backe agayne to the doings of king Dauid Likewise when ye should fully answere the doings of king Iosaphat ye tell vs How Iosaphat appoynted the Leuites and priests to these eccl. functions it shall appeare in the next chapter by the example of Ezechias When we come to the example of Ezechias to finde it set out héere as ye promised ye sende vs backe agayne to Iosaphat and to Dauid saying In all that Ezechias or before Iosaphat did they did but as Dauid had done before That is they executed Gods commaundement declared by the prophetes And thus ye shifte and poste vs of from one place to another making vs beleue here that ye answered fully there making vs beleeue there ye answere fully here and when both places be conferred ye haue answered no more in the one than ye haue in the other and that is in effect â–ª to resolue the arguments nought at all in both And if ye make an accompt of this place to be a resolute answere why sende ye vs backe againe to Dauid and Iosaphat yet how can those answere this or this answere those examples Since many things ye se here were done by Ezechias that were not the executing of any commaundement of God by any of his Prophetes before But of his owne authoritie Ezechias dispensed for them and was allowed of God therein when he had commaunded them to be done Now for your conclusion of the Quéenes Maiestie is mere sclaunderouse and like to your premisses Hir highnesse doth not by force of hiâ—… supreme authoritie enact a new religion contrary to Gods commaundement but by the force of Gods woorde in these ensamples giuing hir a supreme authoritie she enacteth the most old religion to be renewed and restored and reiecteth all other as new crept since into the Church not proceeding ab Antiquo dierum from the ancient of dayes but ab antiquo serpente from the ancient serpent such as chiefly is the doctrine of papistrie And therefore your conclusion is not to the matter in hande otherwise than against your Pope For he by the force of Supreme gouernment or rather supreme vsurpatioÌ„ enacteth a new religion contrary to Gods coÌ„mandement declared by Christ his Apostles therfore by the Apostle is accursed Si quis predicauerit euangelium praterquam quod accepistis anathema sit If any shall preach any other gospel than that ye haue receiued let him be accursed As for that ye say the coÌ„maundement of God declared by the Bishops and Priests is but a craking lie For they hidde Gods coÌ„mandement if ye meane your popish Bishops and priests and declared their owne commaundement in steade thereof as did the Phariseys make frustrate Gods commandement for their owne traditions sake And so farre are they from being the ministers of God now in spirituall matters that as they dispise to administer Gods worde Sacraments so they disdayns scorne at
euen the name of Ministers as euen your selfe do M. St. other where how soeuer here it came vppon you to pretende to bestow a reuerent speach thereon But the Apostles thought not scorne of the name but willed men so to estéeme them as the ministers of God and the dispensers of his mysteries but as your papall Bishops and Priestes be nothing like Gods ministers so least of all are they like the Prophets that were then except ye meane the prophets of Baal that maintayned idolatrie and pleasant leasings to maintayne them selues at Achabs table and fill their paunches with the chéere of Beel and the Dragon The Lords prophets they be not like neither in preaching propheciyng or ought els And yet saith M. Stapl. they be the onely ministers of God now in spirituall matters as prophets were then in the like Why M. Stapl. were the prophets then onely gods ministers in spirituall matters if ye say no how doth your tale hang togither why say ye they are onely Gods ministers now as Prophets were then in the like since the Prophetes were not onely Gods ministers then as ye pretende for your Bishops and Priestes to be onely now If they were not onely then no more be yours only now admitting they were in the like If ye say yea they were onely then Gods ministers as the Bishops and Priests be now what were the Bishops Priestes and Leuites then that were no prophetes were not they Gods ministers in spirituall matters also if yea then were not the Prophets in the like to your Bishops and Priestes that are as ye say only gods ministers now Make your tale for shame hang better togither and withall tell what you meane by this dubble shuffling Ye tolde vs before that your Bishops and Priestes now are like the Bishops and Priestes then and that not the Prophets but the Priestes had that prerogatiue which ye haue so often craked vpon your generall rule of iudgemeÌ„t whereby ye vrged then a supremacie not in the Prophets but in the Bishops Priests And now seing that ye caÌ„ not proue it in these examples where the Bishops Priests obey the Princes ordinance as his inferiours ye shift of the matter to the Prophetes say now your priests prelates succéede are like the Prophetes let go the former claime of priests But these are but your shifts for if the Prophets had this supreme gouernment then the priests had it not If it appertained to the hie priestes chayre so long as the priesthoode of Moses continued then it belonged not to the Prophetes and thus ye contrary your selfe But in very déede neither of theÌ„ both had it but the Prince vnder god They were both Gods ministers in their diuerse functioÌ„s and yet subiecte to their Princes as for the popish Bishops and priestes are like to neither of both The. 17. Diuision THe Bishop with the like example of Iosias concludeth his collection of the Princes in the Old Testament and herevppon maketh in effect this reason All these doinges of these kinges are commended as acceptable seruice and right in the sight of God But the clayming taking vppon them the supreme gouernment ouer the ecclesiasticall persons of all degrees the ruling gouerning and directing them in all their functions in al manner causes belonging to religion were the doings of all these kinges Ergo For Princes to clayme and take vppon them the like supreme gouernment is their right and acceptable seruice in the sight of God. The counterblast of master Stapleton to this diuision is thrée folde First to the example of Iosias Secondly to the argument Thirdly by setting vp newe issues and markes to improue all that the Bishop hath hitherto exemplified as vnsufficient to proue the issue To the first part sayth Master Stapleton King Iosias traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie VVhat then so doe good catholike Princes also to plucke downe the Idolles that yee and your brethren haue of late set vp and yet none of them take them selues for supreme heades in all causes spirituall This is all that he aunswereth to the example of Iosias First where the Bishop sayd Iosias had the like care to the foresayde Princes for religion and vsed in the same sorte his Princely authoritie in reforming all abuses in al maner causes ecclesiastical To this aunswereth master Stapleton He traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie As though this were a full aunswere denying or graunting the Bishops assertion or as thoughe besides the suppressing of Idolatrie he did nothing else Where as the scripture is plaine how hee also redde the lawe before all his subiects how he made the couenant with God that all hys subiectes shoulde walke after the Lorde and obserue all hys commaundements testimonies and ceremonies Howe hée sware them all to kéepe this couenant Howe he commaunded them to kéepe suche a solemne passeouer as was neuer kept by any of all the kings before him How the Priestes appoynted not themselues but he appoynted them in their offices Howe they exhorted not him but howe he exhorted them to prepare themselues sayth Lyra dutifully to celebrate with deuotion the solemnitie of the passeouer Howe he commaunded the arke to be set vp in the Sanctuarie and to beare it no more on their shoulders Howe he commaunded theÌ„ to minister to the Lord and to his people Israel How he commaunded theÌ„ to prepare them selues according to the houses of their auÌ„cesters in their orders aâ—… Dauid had appointed them How he coÌ„maunded them to minister in the sanctuary by their families and Leuiticall courses How he commaunded them to be sanctified and then to offer the passeouer How he commauÌ„ded them also to prepare or sanctifie the residue of their brethren And when al things were prepared how the Priestes kept their stations and the Leuites were in their orders according as the king had commaunded them And so saith the text after it hath reckened vp the manner of the Priests Leuites singers and porters ministeries all the seruice or worship was orderly accomplished in that day to keepe the passeouer and offer their burnt offrings vppon the aultare of the Lorde according to the commaundement of Iosias the King. All these things M. Stapl. were done by his authoritie and commaundement But all these thinges are matters and causes ecclesiasticall Ergo his authoritie and commaundement stretched furder than in suppressing Idolatrie yea â—…uen ouer the chiefest matters ecclesiasticall But all this had M. Stap. quite forgotten and therefore we must beare with him though he answere the Bishop only with this Iosias traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie Wherein we sée also how doubtfully he speaketh for when he perceyued it could not be denied but that which he did he did by his kingly authoritie yet would he not say that he suppressed Idolatrie by
his kingly authoritie but he traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie as though his kingly authoritie stretched no furder than to trauell in the execution of seruing the priestly authoritie But the Scripture is most euident that his kingly authoritie and godly trauell was not in executing the Priestes commaundement but the priestly authoritie traueled in the seruice and executing of the Princes commandement For as he destroyed all their Idols and places of Idolatry and abolished or depriued as Uatablus expoundeth it the false priestes of their priestly dignitie so he commaunded by this his kingly authoritie all the true priestes both the high priest Helchias and vnder him the inferiour priestes and porters to trauell likewise in bringing out to him all the Idolatrous vessels and he summoned or gathered togither all the Priestes And all that there is done is named to be done by him that is to say eyther by him selfe or by his appoyntment and commaundement through his kingly authoritie both in abolishing the false worship and in establishing and directing the true worship of God not onely in generall but also in perticuler yea in the chiefest spirituall matters ouer all the Clergie and the high Priest so well as all his other subiectes and all this was done of him by his kingly authoritie But what then saith M. Stapleton to all this as it were with a phillip to ouerturne al the matter with his Masters what then Forsooth M. St. then it was not his godly trauell in a seruiceable execution of the priestes commaundements but his godly trauell in commaunding them their godly trauel in a seruiceable execution of the kinges commaundements And then it was not onely in suppressing Idolatrie as you limite it but in refourming establishing directing appointing the whole true worship of God besides And then was this his kingly authoritie by the which he did all these things though many of them were Moses Dauids yea the Prophetes former ordinances and Gods commaundement long before yet were they done here by the kinges owne authoritie which in the last example of Ezechias concerning Dauid ye would not admitte bicause it was Gods appoyntment by the hande of his Prophetes Such as were many of these things like wise and yet now ye graunt they were done also euen by Iosias his kingly authoritie And then I pray you what so great a difference finde ye betwéene these twaine the King doth it by his kingly authoritie that here ye confesse and the King doth it by his owne authoritie that there ye denied is not the kinges kingly authoritie the Kinges owne authoritie and yet is all his authoritie from god It followeth then to your what then by your owne confession and the manifest Scripture that this his owne kingly authoritie of Iosias was next vnder God the chiefe and supreme ouer all the Priestes Leuites Singers Porters or any other so well as the people in all abolishing of false religion and in all commaunding and directing the true worship and religion of God which are the principall causes ecclesiasticall And what then say you to this M. Stapleton doth it not cléerely proue the Bishops assertion against M. FeckenhaÌ„ for al your counterblasting it with your bigge what then Thinke ye it proues he did no more then than you will suffer Princes to do now abusing them with the title of good catholike Princes and bereauing them of their good catholike and princely authoritie that by the examples of these good catholike princes they ought to take vpon them and your Pope vsurpes it from them And yet you say to abase the doings of Iosias so do good catholike Princes also to plucke downe the Idolles that ye and your brethren haue of late set vp and yet none of them tooke them selues for supreme heades in all causes spirituall The question is not nowe Master Stapleton what those your good catholike Princes as ye call them take them selues to be whome you haue spoyled and make beléeue what it pleaseth you to tell them that their kingly authoritie reacheth no furder but to be seruiceable trauelers and executioners of your commaundements But the question is here what these Princes mencioned in the holy Scriptures tooke them selues to be which appereth by their appointinges and coÌ„maundinges of their Clergie in their functions that they tooke them selues for their Clergies supreme gouernours in these matters And so ought al good catholike princes by their examples to estéeme of them selues and of their high calling and charge in ecclesiasticall causes and trauayle by their godly supreme gouernment to discharge the same Where ye say therefore so do good catholike princes meaning those that submitte themselues with all the gouernment of religion and all ecclesiasticall matters to your Pope and his prelates not medling them selues therewith as did Iosias and these other godly Kinges whome we sée to haue medled with the gouernment and direction thereof it is apparant false and their doinges herein are no more alike than blacke is like to white than to commaunde directe and appoint others is like to be of the same parties in the same matters commaunded directed and appointed themselues than gouerning is like seruing than one contrarie is like to another And yet you say for ye care not what ye saie as did king Iosias so do your good catholike princes now But what is that they do plucke down the Idols say you that you and your brethern haue set vp Whether we our bretheren or you and your bretheren haue set vp Idols let it fal out betwene vs as it shall hereafter we shall come to the reckening onely stande you to this M. Stapleton that the plucking downe of Idols belongeth to Princes by their kingly authoritie and that so they ought to account of them selues their authoritie which if they had done and diligently executed this their kingly authoritie your shifte of Images and Idols had not auayled you for euen to your moste famous Images shrines and pilgrimages hath foule idolatrie bene committed as the chiefe of your brethren them selues are fayne to confesse and crye out vpon and yet durst your princes neuer pull them downe nor you would euer haue suffred thâ—… so to do for your lucre lay muche therein but caused the Princes to mainteine and enriche suche Images as you dayly did set vp As for the Idols that we should haue set vp who séeth not we haue so little set vp any that we reiecte for Idols those which ye call your Images and professe that neither they nor any other thing besides God nor God in them or by them is to be worshipped but God alone and that in spirite and truthe and so receiue his playne simple worde and sacraments But if as ye sayde before those Princes pull downe our heresies and those are the Idols that we set vp except this presupposall should be graunted you that those be heresies which we mainteine
and therfore good reason that yours giue place to his senior the popish later base born religion of your Romish church to thâ—… first most auncient true religion of that Alpha Omega Iesus Christ himself Master Stap. hauing now set vp these two false markes like to one being out of his way that after he is once ouer his shooes in the myre careth not howe he benâ—…yre himselfe but running deeper through thicke and thinne cryeth this is the way to haue other to followe him so rusheth on master Stapleton still further from the issue and yet taketh euerye thing in his way to bée hys marke and directorie Setting vp the perticuler factes of those Princes that chalenge and take vppon them this supreme gouernement that the selfe same factes must be founde in the ensamples of the olde testament or else hée sayth the Bishop strayeth from the marke VVhat euidence haue ye brought forth sayth he to shew that in the olde lawe anye King exacted of the Clergie In verbo Sacerdotiâ—… that they shoulde make none Ecclesiasticall lawe without his consent as King Henrie did of the clergie of Englande Is this the marke master Stap. betwene the Bishop and master Feckenham to proue in their supreme gouerments euerye selfe same perticuler fact yea the circumstances about or concerning the fact to be all one in them that clayme this gouernment nowe and those that claymed it then since bothe the states the times yea all the ceremonies of religion of the Iewes then and ours nowe are nothing like and trow ye then the princes perticuler doings must be like and euen the same and euidence must be giuen out of the one for euery fact of the other or else their supreme authorities be not alike The issue betweene them is not so straight laced but requireth onely any such gouernment some such gouernment yea he it al suche gouernment to I meane not all suche actions in the gouernment but the supreme directing gouernance authoritie or powre are proued both alike in either princes estate so well ouer eccl. persons in all their functions then or now as ouer the temporall in theirs For by this rule wheras that most famous prince king Henry the eight did sweare also to his obedience all his temporall subiects in ciuill causes as other Princes likewise haue done and do it would be harde to alleâ—…ge an euidence thereof out of the old Testament and yet their supreme gouernments therin were not therefore vnlike As for the ministring of the othe is but a circumstance to confirme the matter and not the matter itselfe And if king Henry were by the obstinate and craftie malice of his popishe clergiâ—… then constrayned for his more assurance to take an othe or promise of them on the honestie of their priesthoode which God wâ—…t was but a small holde as it went then in the moste of them and that no king of those ancient yeres mentioned in the olde testament béeing not moued by the wickednesse or mistrust of his clergy tooke the like othe or promise of their priestes honestie or fayth of their priesthoodâ—… then what is this to or from the matter why their supreme authorities shoulde not be alike in bothe Do not you also say for your side that the highe Priest had suche supreme gouernment then as your Pope â—…othe chalenge now ouâ—…r all eccl. causes â—…nd dothe â—…ot your Pope nowe exacte of all his clergie in verbo â—…acerdotij by the worde of their priesthoode that they shall make no eccl. law without his consent May we not then returne your owne words on your selfe VVhat euidence can you bring foorth to shew that in the olde lawe any highe Priest exacted this of the clergie vnder him And if ye can not as ye can not dothe not then this your wyle reason and newe marke ouerturne the false clayme that your Pope claymeth of such supreme gouernment now as the high Priest had then But his clayme is false his gouernment nothing like For the high priest then tooke not vpon him to make eccl. lawes as doth now your Pope but only obserued such eccl. lawes as God had made to his hande till time of the Pharisies corruption who not content with Gods lawes had deuised besides many fond lawes of their own inuentions when there wanted amoÌ„g them this kingly authoritie To the which so long as it continued the high priest al other obeyed receyuing and obseruing such eccl. constitutions as their godly princes made vnto them So did Aaron first receiue the eccl. coÌ„stitutions of Moses So after him did alâ—…re residue admit the eccl. constitutions of Dauid the rest of the foresaid princes their priests made none of theÌ„ selues without the Princes consent But the princes ordâ—…ined diuers eccl. orders partly with the aduise and consent partly without yea agaynst the wil coÌ„sent of their clergy now then and yet those godly princes exacted of them euen as they were true priests as the stories of Iosaphat and Ezechias mention how they charged their priests euen in that they were the Lords priests which is all one with that you alleage in verbo sacerdotij that they should do suche things as they appoynted them to do And is not this good and authenticall euidence for king Henries doings but that the priests appoynted any suche ordinance without their princes consents will be harde for you to bring the like or any â—…uidence at all for your Popes exacting And if as ye conclude herevpon this exacting to make no eccl. law without his consent be to make the ciuil magistrate the supreme iudge for the final determinatioÌ„ of causes ecclesiasticall then your Pope hauing no such euidence for him by this your marke is no supreme iudge for suche finall determination but it â—…latly proueth agaynst you that the Princes should be the supreme iudges therein And if the exacting of consent importe suche supreme authoritie as héere ye confesse then whereas not onely these ancient kings but also the ancient christian Emperors in the confirming of your Pope exacted that none shoulde be a lawfull Pope to whome they gaue not their consent it argueth that those Emperours were the supreme Iudges for the finall determination of the Popes ecclesiasticall election Which afterwarde when ye come to the handling therof ye renie affirming that although his consent was necessarie to be required yet it argued no suche supreme iudgement in the matter And thus you care not may ye for the time shuffle out an answere howe falsly or how contrary ye counterblast your false The nexte marke is yet further wyde from the issue and more fonde than any of the other for abandoning his Pope and generall Councels VVhat can ye bring foorthe sayth he out of the olde Testament to aide and relieue your doings who haue abandoned not onely the Pope but generall Councels also and that by playne acte of Parliament And
degenerate from true godlinesse into a kinde of Pharisaical righteousnesse or rather into a shew of righteousnesse the which is more cleare than that it can be denyed And afterwarde complayning further of the Popishe fastes and other abuses he sayth His similes sunt plerique nostrum c. The most of our men are like vnto these he meaneth the Phareseys that iudge they keepe the lawes then when they follow externally the letter of the law when they do nothing lesse as appeareth by them that are ydle on the feast dayes and giue themselues to ryot neglecting those thinges that are perteyning to the Sabaoth Of those also that thinke they fast when they eate but once a day but so daintilye and they so glutte themselues that they feele no hunger all day long On the contrarie they iudge not him to fast but to transgresse the commaundement that compelled by pouertie necessitie or labour doth eate but sparingly often tymes a day And a little after These thinges doe flatly fight with the doctrine of christ For first it impugneth the fayth secondly charitie which two Christ did chiefly touch For this cause therefore he doeth so often blame them But if we marke our selues we shall see our selues to be euen the most culpable in the same thinges For commonly our righteousnesse is set most in outwarde thinges I damne not outwarde thinges for who hauing his right wittes woulde or coulde so do But I say they suffice not to saluation And as I sayd a litle before of the precept of keeping the Sabaoth two things are commaunded First the bodies rest secondly and principally the rest of the old man from his workes so say I now euery precept requireth two thinges that is to wete the outwarde worke the heart that principally which Christ declared inough Math. 5. But wee neglecting that which is principally exacted do stick onely in the externall things The same may I say of the ecclesiastical coÌ„stitutions they giue not holinesse but shewe it further it as for ensample true religion consisteth not in this that thou shouldst weare this or that habit but in this that if thou be dead to the world thou liue to god to this point outward things do also not a litle further thee so the true worship of god is if that in spirite and truth thou worship the father But hereto the externall worship doth stirre thee vp The same also is to be said of fasting coÌ„fession prayer c. which chiefly coÌ„sist in the hart But we neglecting these things which are most necessarie do please our selues about the outwarde things onely Thus sayth Ferus of your Popishe fast conteyning farre worse errors than Aerius not putting of difference but belike he shal be an Aerian to The third thing M. St. obiecteth to vs out of Aerius is that he sayd the sacrifice for the dead was fruitlesse If you were not also dead and fruitlesse for any trouth in you Master Stapleton ye would neuer make such a lying sacrifice of your Priestes lippes for shame As though Aerius were counted an Heretike for denying the propiciatorie sacrifice as ye call it of the Masse which ye say is auaylable and meritorious not onely for the liuing but also for the deade to deliuer them from the fayned paynes of purgatorie Whereas if he had affirmed at that time any such thing he should himself haue bene counted a straunge and new monstrous Heretike For as then nor long after neither your pardons and indulgences nor your trentals and Diriges neyther your satissactions nor your oblations neither your Masse of Requiem nor your soule Priestes to sing or say it were extant or deuised Errours in déede there were about the dead both then and long before and suche as after gaue occasion to these your gainfull deuises And if Aerius had denyed such errours or such errours had then bene practised he had béene no Heretike for denying them but rather such Heretikes as had mainteyned them Which the godly fathers did not but acknowledged and knew of no other place eyther of ioy or torment after this lyfe but onely of heauen and hell A thirde place sayth Saint Augustine that writeth of thys Aerius Penitus ignoramus VVe are vtterly ignorant of nor we can finde any such in the scriptures And yet must Saint Augustine néedes haue knowne and acknowledged such a thirde place of deliueraunce of the deade if he had ment of prayer and oblation for theyr deliuerance as you do meane But he flatly denieth the knowing of any such place it followeth then that wryting thus of Aerius either he was in the same Heresie denying any place for the dead to be holpen out of and wherto then should such praier serue or oblation for deliuering them out of a place of torment since there were no such place of torment so he confirmed Aerius his saying or else he must runne yet into a greater error and absurditie that the deade being in one of these two places heauen or hell they were there holpen by such prayers and oblations But for those that are in hell the scripture is flatte their worme shall neuer die their fire is vnquenchable and euerlasting the riche Glutton coulde not get from thence nor finde any neuer so little ease from his torments Ab inferno nulla est redemptio From hell there is no redemption And this knewe saint Augustine well ynough that sayth Duae quippe habitationes vna in igne aeterno altera in regno aeterno There are two dwellings the one in fire eternall the other in the Kingdome eternall And againe Scitote vos c. Knowe ye that when the soule is parted froÌ„ the bodie streightwayes either it is for his good deedes placed in paradise or else certainly for his sinnes cast headlong into hell fire choose nowe that you like either to reioyce euerlastingly with the Saints oâ—… without ende to be tormented with the wicked This was the foule and great errour of Origene Saint Augustine was not infected therewith nor any godly father of his time muche lesse Epiphanius that was an earnest condemner of Origene Although the Papists be not cleare of this errour that say they haue deliuered and can deliuer soules euen out of hell as they tell howe Pope Oregorie deliuered Traian an infidell Prince and howe his mother condemned and tormented in hell fire for hir whoordome was deliuered from thence by him through a trentall of Masses Nowe as for the soules that on the other side be in heauen the other place I thinke Saint Augustine was neuer so farre ouershotte to say or thinke that such prayers coulde ease or deliuer them from paynes that were in the ioyes of heauen What then remayneth to thinke of saint August noting Aerius of Heresie herein We shall the better perceyue this if we marke the errours that many of the Grecians and Egiptians had
c. before you so all you stande nowe with vs stifely at this baye that they are euen as necessarie to saluation as the word of god And if ye let goe this tackling all come downe on anheape Whiche Alfonsus foreâ—…éeing or euer he woulde make his booke as he termes it agaynst heresies Iaciendum est solidissimum fundamentum c. VVe muste laye saythe he a moste sounde foundation wherewith we muste hereafter moste often defende our selues agaynst heretikes as with a moste sure bulwarck that the traditions and difinitions of the vniuersal church in those thinges that pertayne to faythe althoughe the euident scripture fayle for the proofe of them are of no lesse authoritie than the holy Scripture it selfe And agayne Mihi horum per tot seecula c. The authoritie of these most approued men by so many ages should suffice to me although I had by no former reason conuicted it Let vs therfore say that the Churche muste be obeyed in all things that are to be beleeued or to be done although the authoritie of scripture want Thus do you estéeme and stoutly stande to the defence of your ceremonies quite contrarie to all the foresaide auÌ„cient fathers that giue as we do all especiall prerogatiue to the only scriptures You were best therfore to call them heretikes UigilantiaÌ„s with vs for so your Sorbonists played with Erasmus Though he allowed many of your popishe ceremonies and durst not speake open mouthed agaynst any of them for it had beene to hotte for him since he dyd but touche them ful softly and yet they cried out vpon him a Uigilantian an Aerian an heretike as héere you doe A sore â—…adde ye knowe is soone broken and they are tender ware and dayntie to be delte withall the least worde in the worlde agaynst them will make a maruellous heretike Erasmus had but sayde Quo magis haeremus c. Howe muche more we cleaue to bodily ceremonies so muche the more wee encline to Iudaisme And dyd but wyshe on thys wyse Opto omnes esse tales c. I wishe that all men were suche that they mighte not muche neede bodily ceremonies or not giue so much vnto them And that Christ said Discipulis nihil istarum reruÌ„ prascribo I prescribe to my Disciples nought of these things eate this meate abstayne from that now rest now labour be clad thus touch not this handle not that if I were their master they shoulde not once learne to trust in these bodily thinges least they shoulde remayne weake alwayes He sayde but thus and lesse he coulde not well say and say any thing but Lorde what sturre the Sorbonistes made at the matter and howe they all to be heretiked hym Aerian Aetian Iouinian Uigilantian c. So that he was fayne for feare so muche as he mighte to sette a good collour on these your ceremonies and when he had salued the matter as well as he coulde what sayde he then in this retractation for them Iudaismun appello â—…on Iudaicam impietatem I call them Iudaisme not Iudaicall impietie And yet for al his excuses and commendations he was fayne to say Quanquam si Ecclesia tribuitur c. Although if that be attributed to the Church what so euer is prescribed of the Bishops or is done in the churches there are many coÌ„stitutions of Bishops of the which not with out cause all men make a publike complainte There are many ceremonies in certaine Churches the which ye may call either to no purpose or els foolish or else superstitious for commonly either some idle Deane or els some other meane man like him hath deuised them Oft times some old wife giuing monie therefore obteyneth that this or that be done now than certaine creepe in or if not so they breake in euen by the violence of the coÌ„mon peoples custome He should therefore not speake wickedly that should say the libertie of the Christian people is burdened with such constitutions and ceremonies especially when among them there are not a fewe that do no good at all to godlinesse but either to lucre or ambition Thus was Erasmus euen where he defendeth your ceremonies constrained to confesse Yea where he speaketh euen the best of them In his obseruandis c. In obseruing these saith he although they were ordayned to godlinesse the minde of many Christians is Iewishe either while they rest there neglecting those things that are of the spirit or els while with a preposterous Iudgement they attribute more to those outwarde things then to true godlinesse which is settled in the affections But euen as the hardnesse of the Iewes was to be kept in with so many prescriptions as it were with boundes so charitie waxing colde in Christians caused that the Bishops prescribed many things not vnlike the Iewishe prescriptions although to be kept with an vnlike minde For they are as it were certaine wagons wherein the infancie of little children is brought vnto the spirite As he sheweth after an example Exemplicausa c. For ensample the people is bid to bow their knees or their heads to god By this ceremonie the people is warned to submit their soule to God this helpe he that is perfect neede not who submitteth his minde to God in what state soeuer his bodie be And although that such as this the bodies comely gesture of knéeling which is not a ceremonie inueÌ„ted of your Bishops but taught vs in Gods word by Christ and his Apostles manner of prayer we not onely vse but also diuerse of your Churches Ceremonies be not refused of vs but kept yet are they vsed farre otherwise than your prelates vrged them or your people kept them reposing in them as Erasmus saith Proram puppim Sanctimoniae The whole stay of Religion Tali hominuÌ„ genere quoniam c. Bicause saith he I saw the worlde full of such kinde of men I now and then call them backe to the studies of true godlinesse from the admiration of ceremonies But to admonish to trust to ceremonies I neither thought it necessary nor safe Of the worde of trusting let other looke to it vnto me to whom this worde to trust soundeth to leane principally vnto it soundeth hardly to trust to the workes of men and to trust to Ceremonies Neither finde I these voices either in the diuine writings or in the writings of godly men Thus hardly was Erasmus driueÌ„ to his defence about your Ceremonies by the Facultie of the Diuines of Paris that vrged the necessitie vertue and confidence in them In the ende of all which conflictes as he saith to them so say I to you M. Stap. Quid autem his tot c. Of all these so many propositions what is done that shoareth vp Christian Religion that the people should beleeue a Monkes cowle was auailable to heale diseases that passing ouer Christe we should with petitions sollicite the Saincts That
Augustine that is their accuser who saith they did refuse the proufes of the old Testament And you say ye haue not redde it had ye redde S. Augustine or so much as the wordes taken out of him that the Bishop citeth and you take vppon you to answere vnto for Master Feckenhams defence how could ye not haue redde it but ye would slippe off the matter vnder the colour of the Manicheans refusall bicause the Donatistes did not refuse it as they did therefore they did not refuse it at all whereas the Manichées did simplie and vtterly refuse the old Testament which the Donatistes did not but refused it like such wise men as the Papistes when they thinke it maketh against them â–ª and admit vrge it when they thinke it maketh for them thus did they and thus do you and therfore for this handling of the old Testament ye be like the Donatistes But for your handling of the newe Testament ye be like the Manichées of whome S. Augustine saith Ipsiâ—…sque nouâ—… Testaments c. And they so reade the sentences of the new Testament as though they had bene falsified that what they lust they take from thence and what they like not they reiect and as though they contained not all the truth they preferred many bookes that were Apocrypha And saide that in their Archemanichee the promise of the Lorde Iesus Christ was fulfilled wherevppon in his letters he called him selfe the Apostle of Iesus Christe bicause Iesus Christe promised to sende him and sente in him Iesus Christe Whiche how nere it toucheth your Popes practise looke you to it and cléere him of it M. Stapleton els ye will not onely proue Donatistes I am afrayde but also Manicheans Thus muche then for the former motiue that the B. had to charge M. Feckenham with the Donatistes And if this suffise as you say for this branche to purge M. Feckenham content is pleased and so am I let it suffise in Gods blessed name I commit it to the readers iudgement Now to the other motiue Concerning the other say you besides your falshood your great follie doth also shew it selfe too aswell as in the other to imagine him to be a Donatiste And to thinke or say as you say they did that Ciuill Magistrates haue not to do with Religion nor may not punishe the transgressours of the same Master Feckenham saith no such thing and I suppose he thinketh no such thing And furder I dare be bold to say that there is not so much as a light coniecture to be grounded thereof by any of M. Feckenhams words vnlesse M. Horne become suddenly so subtile that he thinketh no difference to say the Prince should not punishe an honest true man in steede of a theefe and to say he should not punishe a theefe or to say there is no difference betwixt all thinges and nothing For though M. Feckenham and all other Catholikes do denie the ciuill Princes supreme gouernment in all causes Ecclesiasticall yet doth not M. Feckenham nor any Catholike denie but that ciuill Princes may deale in some matters Ecclesiasticall as Aduocates and Defenders of the Churche namely in punishing of Heretikes by sharpe lawes Vnto the whiche lawes Heretikes are by the Church first giuen vp and deliuered by open excommunication and condemnation Here first as ye did in the other motiue so againe ye charge the Bishop with falshood and folly but take héede M. Stapleton the falshood and follie light not on your owne pate as it did in the other Whether it be follie in you or crafte let other déeme certainely falshood it is that when ye come to the setting downe of the Bishops wordes in a distincte letter ye dare not for both eares on your head set downe the full wordes of the Bishop nor of S. Augustine nor yet of the Donatistes whereby it might haue bene knowne what the Donatistes attributed or denied to Princes and how néere or how farre ye had come vnto or diffred from them Thus durst ye not do and thus should ye haue done which argueth your owne falsehood But ye turne the catte into the panne and say that the Donatistes saide Ciuill magistrates haue not to do with religion nor may not punishe the transgressours of the same but say you M. FeckeÌ„ham saith no such thing and you suppose he thinketh no such thing and furder ye dare be bolde to say there is not so much as a light coniecture to be grounded thereof by any of M. Feckenhams wordes and hereon you conclude him to be no Donatiste Now since ye will be thus bolde for M. Feckenham as to enter into his thought ye should not haue bene afrayde with the Byshop to haue set downe his playne written wordes or so muche as the full content therof Did ye feare they would bite ye in déede they woulde haue shewed you to haue bene a Donatist they would haue shewed howe ye haue altered the Donatistes refusall and S. Augustines complaynt on them to make it séeme you were none Ye saye M. Feckenham and you graunt Princes may deale with matters ecclesiasticall Why M. Stapl. so diâ—… the Donatistes too Haue not your selfe confessed that they ranne for succour to Iulianus the Apostata and highly commended him And ye knowe in Cecilians controuersie that they refused not the Emperours dealing till he delte still agaynst them and therfore as you say you do not no more did they simply denie that princes might deale in matters of religion Ye should therfore haue adioyned the wordes that the Byshop reciteth out of S. Augustine howe and after what manner they denied their dealing in matters of religion and punishment of heretikes Whether they denyed it as you dâ—… that they should not dealing as supreme gouernours as punishers by their owne authoritie yea or no for this you denie Now that Princes had and tâ—…ke vpon them and oughte to haue this kinde of dealing the Bishop proued out of S. Augâ—…stine that magistrates and rulers â—…ught to reforme theÌ„ to reduce them to the vnitie of the Church and to represse their heresies with their authoritie and godly lawes made for that purpose to whoÌ„ it belonged of duetie and whose speciall seruice to Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiectes be gouerned and maynteined in the true and sincere religion of Christ without all errors superstitions and heresies This was the maner of the Princes dealing then with religion and this you now denie to Princes to deale on this wise â–ª And on this fashion saide the Donatistes The seculer Princes haue not to deale in matters of religion or causes eccl. That God committeth not the teaching of his people to kings but to Prophets Christ sent not souldiors but fishers to bring in and further his religion Pretending the ordering and disposing of all eccl. causes to be in the Clergie and by the Clergie they ment them selues As you do likewise when ye say heretikes
tale with you Ye do wel to call your answere a tale for ye haue hitherto tolde a faire tale and a well told tale and therfore I pray ye M. Stap. tell on your tale till ye haue redde vs out this worthy chapter And sée that the residue of your tale be accustomable as yâ—… say to this ye haue hitherto tolde vs. The. 19. Diuision THe Bishop for that M. Feck with the Donatists refuseth the proues of the olde Testament â—…or Princes supreme gouernment ioyneth with Saint Aug. agaynst the Donatists and the Papists alleaging out of S. Augusâ—… many sentences first to proue this to be the verie dutie and speciall seruice of Princes vnto God to haue an especiall care diligence and ouersight to see Gods lawes and true Religion set forth and kept and to punish and remoue all things to the contrary Secondly to confute this refusall of the Donatists and Papists besides the foresayde proues and examples hée alleageth oâ—…te of Saint Augustine the examples of the King of Niniue of Darius of Nabuchodonozor and others prouing thereby that the Histories and testimonies cited out of the olde Testament are partly figures and partly Prophecies of the power dutie and seruice that Kings shoulde owe and performe in like sort to the furtherâ—…uce of Christes religion in the time of the newe Testament Master Stapletons aunswere to these testimonies is thréefolde First he laboureth to restraine all the testimonies of Saint Augustine onely to punishing of Heretikes Secondly he laboreth to proue that these testimonies make agaynst vs Thirdly he goeth about once againe by the Bishops illation on these testimonies to clere master Fecâ—…enham of the crime that the Bishop charged him with for refusing the examples of the olde testament The first part he parteth againe in thrée First he gathereth a contract and summe of all these testimonies to the which he yeldeth Secondly he sheweth that this was his olde and former opinion Thirdly he limitteth all the matter only to punishment And first of all he sayth â—…o now haue we mo testimonies out of Saint August to proue that for the which he hath alleaged many things out of S. Aug. already and the which no man denieth For what else proueth all this out of S. Aug. bothe nowe and before alleaged but that christian Princes ought to make lawes and constitutions euen as M. Horne him selfe expoundeth it fol. 12. b for the furtherance of Christes religion Are ye afrayde M. Stap. to be oppressed with the number of testimonies What man and your cause be good the mo the merier they say but bicause your cause is noughte the fewer belike with you the better fare althoughe by your leaue ye make a pretie lye in the beginning to say that he alleageth these testimonies of S. Augustine to proue that for the whiche he hathe alleaged many thinges out of S. Augustine already For the abouesayde allegations were directed to detecte the Donatistes in refusing the Princes authoritie and the examples of the olde Testament and to sée howe like to theirs your dealings to Princes and your refusall of the same examples were But these testimonies present are to confirme the Princes authoritie and the examples of the olde Testament for Princes agaynst both Donatistes and Papistes deniall of their authoritie and refusall of thexamples But let this passe sithe whatsoeuer those or these be ye say no man denieth them For what else say you proueth all this out of S. Aug. bothe nowe and before alleaged but that Princes oughte to make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion this thing no Catholike deâ—…ieth Meane ye playne dealing and speake ye in good sadnesse M St dothe no Catholike denie nor no man denie that Princes may make lawes for the furtheraunce of Christes religion How chaunce then you runne from the obedience of your own naturall most gratious soueraigne that maketh so godly lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion denie that she hath authoritie to make any lawes and coÌ„stitutions in that behalfe but that she must onely be obedient to your Popes and his Priests lawes and constitutions And for this matter ye compile the moste of your works And now ye say no maÌ„ nor catholike denieth it By this rule you be no catholikes that ye crake so much of Nay ye be no men neither for it is moste euident that ye chiefly denie this thing And your selfe in your Preface make it to be the moste principall controuersie of all other and most to be denied If ye be a true Catholike and a true man deale playnly For no doubt ye meane that there is a padde in the sâ—…rawe Ye haue a knacke in your budget whereby ye thinke ye may well graunt this whiche for shame in open wordes ye dare not denie but graunte And yet ye thinke we shall haue no more holde by your graunte than he that holdeth a wette Ele by the tayle For in the ende ye come in with suche a qualification as all the worlde may perceiue a flatte deniall thereof And yet at the firste blushe no man woulde thinke but that the matter betwéene vs and you were full concluded We say all the authoritie that the Quéene hath is onely to this ende in effecte that she oughte thereby to make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion This say you no man denieth but that they oughte to make lawes and coÌ„stitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion Héere you agrée with vs to a simple playne dealing mans iudgement Ye are become a Protestant I hope But what will your good masters at Louaine and your friendes with vs say to you when they shall heare of this graunt they wil affirme with one voyce that they vtterly denie it and aske ye howe ye haue defended master Feckenhams quarell Tushe will you say to them holde your peace sirs all is wel inough there was no remedie but I must néedes grasit to S. Augustines words they were so manyfest and so pressed that there was no helpe but to graunt it yea and to beare downe the matter that no bodie denied it But I haue such a distinction for it that they shal be neuer the néere for all my graunt Did ye neuer réede may ye say to them the practise of Arrius that wheÌ„ he was so vrged that he could not denie it he yelded to the true beleuers and wrote also as I haue done deposing that he beléeued as he had written but when his coÌ„plices herefore exposâ—…ulated with him he declared to them that for all the shewe of his grant in wordes in déede he had graunted nothing He saide he beleeued as he had written and looke here quoth he pulling a paper out of his bosome contayning his Heresie this is the writing to the which I referred my wordes And so may you say to your friendes M. Stap. true in
their swordes villes bowes and gunnes to lay on and strike onely when the Priests bid them and those onely whome the Priestes appoint to be slaine Now forsoth and forsoth M. St. this is a proper dealing of Princes in Ecclesiasticall causes and a goodly kinde of making lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion Well whatsoeuer it be this is all they are like to haue of you and yet will ye kéepe touche with them in your graunt to But thinke ye M. St. was this all that princes ought to do and nothing else but to punish heretikes on this fashion nothing else say you for that was in deede the very occasion why S. Aug. wrote all this A â—…a M. St. then I perceyue S. Aug â–ª wrote something more than ye would perticulerly answere vnto Well say you what soeuer he wrote this was the very occasion whie he wrote it to make lawes for punishing Heretikes and nothing else How M. St to make the Emperor that then was none other dealer in their punishment than your Pope maketh the Emperour now or than your Prelates made Q. Marie of late your executioner and the Nobilitie your droyles whome soeuer ye determine to prick by your excoÌ„munication condemnation what fooles were the Donatists then to crie out vpon the Emperour This were like the furie of the angrie Dogge that being bitte with a stone wreaketh his anger vpon the stone and not on him that hurled it What fellon is offended with the executioner or layeth his death to the beheaders charge when the Prince commaundeth to behead him but to the Prince But in this case you are the Princes that are the Priests and the Prince is but as it were the stone in your bande is but the executioner of your sentence Why should the Donatists then haue blamed the Prince except the Prince then had beene not the Priestes instrument but euen the principall in making lawes of punishment for them And so did Saint August acknowledge the Prince He decréed not lawes for the Emperour to put in execution but desired the Emperour to reforms them by suche sharpe lawes as séemed best to himselfe And although this were the verie occasion as ye say why Saint Augustine wrote all this Yea though it were the onely occasion to of writing all that he wrote what is that to this purpose For whatsoeuer the occasion were the occasion is not vrged but the wordes that he wrote A particuler occasion maye haue generall prooues The occasion of Saint Augustines wryting ye saye was the punishing of the Donatists And yet woulde Saint Augustine so haue written thoughe they had béene other Heretikes And it serueth agaynst all Heretykes Whie bycause hys prooues are generall whatsoeuer were the occasion And yet his occasion was not onely aboute the punishing of the Donatists for the Donatists denyed more than hys authoritie in punishing them they denyed hys authoritie to â—…ette foorth the true Religion and to ouersee that it bee in all estates duely preserued This sayde they was committed to Fishers not to Souldiours to Prophets not to Kinges as you nowe saye the lyke it was committed to the Apostles and Priestes not to Kings This was another verie occasion also and many other besydes might be whie Saint Augustine wrote all this But what is this All this that ye speake vppon I pray ye tell vs at least the summe of all this that saint Augustine wrote And then shall we sée if it be all none other but lawes of punishment for Heretikes that he layde and ment or no. And whether you haue hitherto truly sayde and ment or no all your falsehoode will then appeare Let vs here therefore resume some of those Testimonies of Saint Augustine God dothe inspire sayth he into Kinges that they shoulde procure the commaundement of the Lorde to be performed or kept in their Kingdoms Is this onely master Stapleton for punishing of Heretikes Againe In that hee is also a King hee serueth in making lawes of conuenient force for to commaunde iust things and to forbidde the contrarie Is this onely ment of lawes to punishe Heretikes Againe The Ensample of the King of Niniue that it apperteyned to the Kinges charge that the Niniuites shoulde pacifie Gods wrath Was thys onely mente of making lawes for punishing Heretikes What Heretikes were in Niniue Heathen Idolaters there were store but of Heretikes we read none And who made the decree of their fasting and repentance not the Prophete he onely denounced the wrath and iustice of God nor highe Priest of Aarons order was there any among them that the Scripture mencioneth Idolatrous Priestes no doubt they had more than ynowe but the lawe of that Ecclesiasticall discipline was not set out by them but by the King. Generally to conclude Saint Augustine sayth that the auncient actes of the godly Kinges mencioned in the Propheticall Bookes were figures of the lyke factes to bee done by the godlye Princes in the tyme of the newe Testament Were nowe these theyr doynges and auncient actes nothing else but lawes and constitutions for punishing Hereâ—…ykes and false teachers Were all the constitutions and doyngs of Moyses Iosue Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias Iosias and others nothing else Master Stapleton but this O good GOD that euer any that shoulde professe the studie of diuinitie shoulde be founde so false and shamelesse not onely thus to dallie with Princes but also to delude the fathers and the Scriptures and all to enfringe and takeaway the Princes interest and authoritie Nowe that ye haue thus in your first part brought the matter about giuing a graunt in wordes and expounding the wordes haue taken away the graunt againe ye enter into your seconde part to set a fresh on vs as ye did in your former Chapter would make these testimonies of S. Aug. to serue against vs which ye go about two maner of ways First hauing nowe abridged the princes authoritie to nothing else but to make lawes to punish Heretikes ye crie out vpon vs that we be the heretikes and that they must punish vs â–ª Secondly ye woulde proue that we be the Heretikes to be punished for denying euen this title to Princes of punishing Heretikes And for the first part ye say But nowe that master Horne may not vtterly leese all his labour herein let vs see howe these matters do truely and trimly serue agaynst his deare brethren and master Foxes holy Martyrs Here is all made sure on euery side euery way preuented least the poore â—…elie Protestants shoulde escape your violence by any starting hole First you your selues our enemies will onely haue the making of the decrées and lawes what shall be true religion what shall be false Secondly the Prince shall haue nothing to doe in examining the matter betwéene vs who haue in déede the true religion who haue the false but they must beléeue before hand that that which you shall say against vs is
haue thought they had done God good seruice too so that he would haue maintayned them And do not you euen so what els maketh ye crie vpon the Princes beyond the seas with all kinde of torments to destroy the Protestants If Princes would aduise them selues or euer they beléeued you so lightly and would not destroy their subiects till they had sit in iudgmâ—…t heard discussed both parties causes throughly ye would not be halfe so hastie Ye would then crie to the contrarie that you must only be iudges they must onely beleue you strike onely them whom you shall bidde them strike Contrarywise where the Princes espying your falshood forsake your errours and sette out euen very milde lawes against you then ye change your coppie and crie out euery thing is extreme crueltie ye are too too sore handled and oppressed then ye extoll beyonde the moone lenitie and sufferance and winche like a gald horse at the least thing that toucheth you And thus euery way do you still shew your selues to be the very Donatistes Now that ye haue as you conceyue with your selfe giuen vs so great a foyle ye enter into your thirde parte saying VVe may now proceede to the remnant of your booke sauing that this in no wise must be ouerhipped that euen by your owne wordes here ye purge M. Feckenham from this crime ye laide vnto him euen now for refusing the proufeâ—… taken out of the old Testament Now for God M. St. since hitherto ye haue cléered him so sclenderly that ye haue more bewrapped him and your selfe also in this crime let nothing in any case be forgotten or ouerhipped that any wayes may helpe the matter forwarde for hitherto it rather hath gone backward but now there is good hope M. Feckenham shall take a good purgation euen of the Bishops owne making that you M. Stap. will minister to him which wil so worke vpon him make him haue so good a stoole that he shal be clerely purged of this crime of Donatistes â—…o to then M. Stapl and let vs sée how apothecarylike you can minister the same For if as ye say say you the order gouernment that Christ left behind in the Gospell new Testament is the order rule gouernment in ecclesiastical causes practised by the Kings of the old Testament then will it follow that M. Feckenham yelding to the gouernment of the new doth not exclude but â—…ather comprehende the gouernment of the old Testament also both being especially as ye say all one Is this the purgation M. St. that ye will minister to M. Feckenham would to God ye could make him receyue anâ—… brooke this sentence if you would take it also I warrent ye it would so purge you of your old leuen sowre dough that ye should no more be Donatists nor Papistes neither if ye receyue and well digest this little sentence The order and gouernment that Christ left behinde in the new Testament is the order rule and gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes practised by the kinges of the old Testament For then giue ye Princes that that ye haue all this while denied theÌ„ But do ye thinke M. Feckenham will wittingly and willingly receiue this sentence that which in déede followeth necessarily thereon The sentence is true but M. Feck for all that may be a lier and you another For I warrant you M. Feck granteth this no â—…urder than as the Donatists he may temper it to make it seeme to serue his turne Why say you if he grant the onâ—… he doth not exclude but rather comprehende the other Nay M. St. M. Feck coÌ„preheÌ„des it not but shoonnes it as agaynst him by your owne confession But the olde being comprehended by the newe Master Feckenham is contrarie wise by force of argument graunting the newe enforced by the olde Not that he comprehendeth it but is comprehended of it and driuen to yeelde thereto of his aduersarie by conclusion of reasoning the one including the other But rather than he will do this voluntarily he will rather exclude them both the olde and the newe testament also and as he hath done burne them both togither The. 20. Diuision THe Bishop in this diuision first gathereth his full conclusion of all these testimonies into this argument What gouernment order and dutifulnesse so euer belonging to any God hath prefigured and promised before hande by his Prophetes in the holy scriptures of the olde Testament to be performed by Christ those of his Kingdom that is the gouernment order and dutifulnesse set forth and required in the Gospell or new testament But that faythfull Emperours Kinges and Rulers ought of dutie as belonging to their office to claime and take vpon them the gouernment authoritie power care and seruice of God the Lorde in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall was an order and dutifulnesse for them prefigured and forepromised of God by his Prophetes in the Scriptures of the olde Testament as Saint Augustine hath sufficiently witnessed Ergo Christian Emperors Kings and Rulers owe of dutie as belonging to their office to clayme and take vpon them the gouernment authoritie power care and seruice of God their Lorde in matters of Religion or spirituall ecclesiasticall causes is the gouernment order and dutifulnesse setforth and required in the Gospell or new Testament The Bishop hauing thusfully concluded these Testimonies he yet confirmeth them further with more authorities of the Prophete Esay with Lyra his exposition therevpon and the example of Constantine for proufe of the same At this master Stapleton first carpeth by certaine marginall notes or euer he blowe vp the Chapter of his Counterblast thereto The minor of the Bishops conclusion for the Princes gouernment authoritie power care c. he grauÌ„teth but not such supreme gouernment sayth he as the othe prescribeth He graunteth also Saint Augustine to witnesse this the Princes gouernment but no such large and supreme gouernment as we attribute now to them Againe he graunteth this supreme gouernment is in causes ecclesiasticall â–ª but not in all causes ecclesiasticall And so graunting that the Bishop concludeth well in some such thing you conclude not sayth he in all things and causes and therefore you conclude nothing agaynst vs. Lastly he graunteth all the Bishops testimonies concerning Constantine but he denieth that it maketh any thing for vs. Nowe after these marginall notes prefixed he entreth into his Chapter pretending to open the weakenesse of the Bishops conclusion and of other his proues oute of holie Scripture And first his aunswere to this diuision he deuideth in thrée partes First he graunteth all that the Bishop hath sayde but denieth that it is sufficient Secondly he quarrelleth about this that the Bishop calleth the Emperour Constantine a Bishop as Eusebius nameth him Thirdly he chalengeth him for calling Idoll Image Now to the first parte to sée whether all these grauntes make sufficiently for vs and conclude against him yea
you captiously gybe and cauill for that belongeth not to supreme gouernment But that he is so the supreme gouernour in ouerséeing the consecration and deliuerie of the true foode wherewith the people of God ought to be fedde that euen he ouerséeth the féeder himselfe And for this cause the King is called of the Prophete the nourishing father and Quéenes are named Nourses that although the ministerie of féeding pertaine to the ministers yet the prouision for the foode the ouersight that the children of God be duely fedde with the right milke with the true bread and water of lyfe belongeth to the Princes And therefore haue they the name of nourses not to nourishe them in ciuill matters and corporall fâ—…de onely but as in ciuil so in â—…acte verbi in the milke of the worde of God also Is this only the cherishing of the good childe by giuing landes reuenewes maintenaunce and lyuing to the Churche Is this onely the displing of the frowarde childâ—… or as ye call it the punishing of the heretike No M. Stapleton Lyra his exposition and yours doe not agrée He sayth they are nourses what to doe to feede whom the faithfull ones wherewith with the milke of the worde whose worde euen the worde and sacraments of God. Wherof sith the ministery and execution belongeth not vnto them but to the ministers it followeth necessarily thervpon that the prouision direction appointment care and ouersight which is the supreme gouernement belongeth to them And this is that which Lyrâ—… confesseth the B. vrgeth of Constantine that he was such another nourse as did kepe defend maintaine vpholde and feede the pore faithfull ones of Christ yea caried them in his bosome as it were and procured them to be fedde did set forth proclamations not only against false religion but also to set forth to exhort and allure vnto the Christian faith caused not only the Idolatrous religion to bee suppressed but caused also on the other parte the true knowledge and religion of Christ to bee brought in and planted among his people and did not only make lawes for punishing heretikes and Idolaters but also reformed all manner abuses about Gods seruice Thus sayth the Bishop out of Eusebius did Constantine play the nourses part Nowe what saye you to all this M. Stapleton All this of Constantine say you is graunted and maketh nothing for you Whether it maketh for vs or no we will not contende But it maketh for the matter and being graunted it maketh vp the matter For and ye will graunt thus much from your heart inwarde which ye nowe graunt from the téeth outwarde by compulsion of the manifest truth ye might come home well ynough with a wannion and bestow your wit and trauell better than thus to graunt vnto and yet with pieuishnesse to wythstande the manifest truth of the matter The Quéenes Maiesties othe requireth no more of you to giue to hir than here ye graunt to giue to Constantine to set foorth Christes religion to make lawes and constitutions not only of punishment but of reformation of all maner abuses about Gods seruice to prouide that the Church be fed with Gods worde and in all pointes aboue sayde shewe her selfe a very nource of the Church committed to hir gouernement as the childe is to the nourse What one thing ecclesiasticall is not here comprehended or can ye shewe cause why she ought not to haue the same authoritie in hir dominions as well as Constantine to whome ye graunt it had in his if ye saye she doth not this but the contrarie this is but your wicked slaunder M. Stapleton But graunt hir hir interest and then trie that Hir right is one thing and whether she dischargeth well the same or no is another thing Graunt hir hir right as you doe to Constantine and then spare not to improue what ye can proue amisse Nowe hauing graunted thus much which in dede concludeth vp all the matter least he shoulde vtterly be discrâ—…dited of all his friendes he goeth about so much as he can in wrangling of wordes to defeate once againe all his former graunt according to his practise in the Chapter before For where the Bishop by the example of Constantyne proueth the Prince to be herein not only a nourse to the people but also to bee appoynted vnto them of God as it were the common or vniuersall Byshop as Eusebius testifieth of Constantine and Constantine to other Byshops calleth himselfe a Byshop signifying his carefull ouersight ouer all his people in setting forth Gods true religion Maister Stapleton first snappeth at thys worde Byshoppe secondlye hée challengeth the Byshoppe for curtalling Eusebius sentence And when Eusebius sayeth he calleth hym as it were a common or vniuersall Byshoppe I suppose yee meane not that hee was a Byshop in deede For your selfe confesse that Princes Bishops offices are farre distincted and disseuered that the one ought not to break into the office of the other The Bishops meaning is euident master Stap. and so are his words But your meaning is to brabble to tickle in the Readers heade a suspition that he confounded these offices Is there no difference betwéene these sayings he was as it were a Bishop and he was a Bishop in dede Yes M. St. and ye were not a very wrangler in dede ye might perceyue by these wordes as it were he plainly ment and as it were spake it that he was no B. in deede And what though he were no Bishop in dede in the function and office of a Bishops ministerie no more was he also a nourse in deede nor the people were suckling babes in deede nor the worde of God is milke in deede yet as these things be not falsly spoken but being borowed speaches in their senses import not onely a true but a more excellent vnderstanding than the bare wordes vsually betoken so the Emperour being named to be as it were a common or vniuersall Bishop and yet in deede being no Bishop it argueth that he had this name bicause of his common and vniuersall gouernment ouersight and care ouer all Bishops and causes Ecclesiasticall This shift therefore to slinke away from the manifest meaning of the wordes by threaping on the Bishop this kindnesse that he shoulde meane to proue him a very Bishop in dede is a very meane shift though it haue in dede a shrewde meaning Master Stapleton And if you did so meane say you Eusebius himself would soone confounde you if you reherse Constantines whole sentence that he spake to the Bishops What a good year meane ye M. St. ye vrge this meaning further than néedes that the B. should meane to make the Emperor a Bishop in the Bishoply ministerie therfore curtalled as ye call it Eusebius sentences If Eusebius sentence set it downe as whole as ye list confound them that meane to confound these offices it will neuer soone or late confound the B. the popish Bishops
agaynst Gods holy worde Is this an argument M. St. that we abuse the worde of God bicause you playnly say this supremacie is directly agaynst Gods worde In déede I heare ye say it and saye it playnely and as playne as ye can saye it and that very often too and make it a sufficient cause saying For we playnly say But ye shoulde once at the least proue it as playnly withall and not so often tell vs that ye playnely say so and then we shoulde playnely sée and say also with you that ye vsed playne dealing as well as playne sayings The. 21. Diuision IN this diuision the Byshop procéedeth further with other testimonies out of the Apostles with the fathers expositions therevpon First where Sainct Peter â—… Ep. cap. 2. and Sainct Paule Rom. 13. do not licence but commaunde obedience vnto Princes Chrisostome stretcheth this obedience to euery kinde of Ecclesiasticall person so well as lay person And maketh the obiecte or matter wherein the Princes gouernement is exercised to be for the furthering and aduauncing of all vertuous actions the correcting and repressing of all vices and that not onely in all matters of the seconde Table betwéene man and man but of all matters in the first table betwéene God man so well as of the other To the confirmation wherof he citeth agayne S. Paule 2. Timoth. 2. stretching the duetie of Princes not onely to honestie of life but also to godlinesse Wherby Sainct Augustine meaneth the chiefe or proper worship seruice and religion of god Shewing at large by Sainct Augustine who reasoning on the thirtéenth to the Rom. confuteth the Donatistes héerein that Princes haue authoritie for the furtherance and setting foorth of true religion and suppressing of all heresies schismes and other ecclesiasticall abuses so well as the furtheraunce and setting foorth of ciuill iustice and the punishement of morall vices To this M. Stapletons answere is parted into foure First gathering a contraction of the Byshops allegations he graunteth vnto them and proueth that he and the Protestantes agrée héerevpon Secondly he pincheth and restrayneth his graunt and endeuoreth to proue contradiction in the Protestantes Thirdly he entreth into the answere of certayne wordes and testimonies by the Byshop alleaged Fourthly he replieth on the bishop with other allegations out of Chrysostome and theron frameth an argument on them for his Priestes superioritie The residue of his answere to S. Augustine he passeth ouer in wordes of course In the first sayth M. Stapleton Heere is nothing M. Horne that importeth your surmised supremacie The effect of your processe is Princes haue authoritie to mainteine praise and further the vertues of the first table and to suppresse the coÌ„trarie wherein onely consisteth the true religion and spiritual seruice that is due from man to God And that he hath authoritie herein not only in the vertues or vices bidden or forbidden in the second table of Gods coÌ„maundementes wherein are conteyned the duties that one maÌ„ oweth to another This is grauÌ„ted M. Horn both of the Catholikes and of the soberer sort of the Protestantes for Carolostadius Pelargus Struthius with the whole rable of th' Anabaptistes denie it that Princes haue authoritie both to further the obseruation and to punishe the breache of Gods coÌ„maundements as well in the first table as in the seconde that is as well in suche actions as concerne our duetie to God himselfe as in the duetie of one man to another This were meetely well sayde M. St. that héere agayne thus liberally ye grauÌ„t if it made any gret matter what ye graunted or denied The bishop you should soone agrée sauing for your instabilitie that after you haue made your large graunts ye still reuoke theÌ„ againe with some pelting distinction or qualification of them Your graunt is this Princes haue authoritie both to maynteine praise further the obseruation and to suppresse and punish the breach of Gods coÌ„mandements aswel in the first table as in the seconde that is aswell in suche actions as concerne our duty to God himselfe wherin onely consisteth the true religion and spirituall seruice as in the duetie of one man to another But thus wel haue Princes authoritie to mainteine further or to suppresse and punish in actions of the duety of one man to another conteyned in the second table that no suche actions be exempted from their authoritie but they ought to prayse maynteine and further al such actioÌ„s as are bidden and suppresse and punish al such actions as are forbidden and that to do with moste great care diligence and ouersight yea supreme authoritie also vnder God therin Ergo They may do so by like righte in all the actions of the first table concerning the true religion and spirituall seruice of god Or else this aswell that ye put in twyce togither for more confirmation commeth an ace behinde and is belike as muche to say as not as well the quite contrarie to aswell Thus if ye stande to your owne words that the Princes authoritie is aswell in the one as in the other they sufficiently importe all that we demaunde and are as muche as this The Prince is supreme gouernour not onely in all temporall â–ª but also in all ecclesiasticall causes And therefore where ye say that they be Anabaptistes that denie it ye conclude all the Papistes to be Anabaptistes for they denie it And your selfe are in the table also that haue puâ—…te oute this your Counterblast chiefly to ouerturne it Although when ye be pressed ye oftentimes graunte that whiche ouerturnes your selfe Neither dothe your distinction helpe â–ª ye to the which ye runne for succour euen to your enimies But all this is say you as not onely the Catholike wryters but Melancthon him selfe and Caluine doe expound Quod ad externam disciplinam attinet As muche as appertayneth to externall discipline And the Magistrate is the keeper and defender of bothe Tables saythe Melancthon but agayne he addeth Quod ad externos mores attinet As muche as belongeth to externall maners behauiour and demeanour Ye promise héere agayne to agrée with Caluine and Melancthon in all this whiche ye haue graunted that the Prince hathe authoritie as well in the firste Table as in the seconde this onely excepted as they excepte Quod ad externam disciplinam externos mores attinet So long as appertayneth to outwarde discipline and outwarde maners But al Ecclesiastical causes and orders for setting foorth religion are either outwarde disciplines or outwarde rites maners behauiours or demeanoures for as for inwarde actions or thoughtes the Prince meddleth not withall but God alone the minister onely pronounceth Gods threats or promises for them â–ª Ergo Euen by this your own distinction ye confesse once agayne the Princes supremacie in all eccl. causes Neither dothe your reason folowing helpe ye any thing at all For say you in the first Table are coÌ„teined many offences and breaches of the which
worlds end and neuer to be altered added vnto or taken from all suche nouelties besides or contrarie to the olde and former fayth hathe the Q. highnes god be thaÌ„ked therfore remoued as CoÌ„staÌ„tine did and all Princes ought to do and hath called vs agayne to the religion of the most holy lawe as a most diligent defender of the olde and former fayth from the Popishe corruptions in faith that haue sprong vp since And as ConstaÌ„tine deposed such Bishops as obstinately mainteined those later errours and not the olde and former fayth except on their repentance submission they were by him restored so hath our most gracious souer aigne deposed such Popish Bishops and Pastors as obstinately defended and mainteined their later errours Wherin she hath shewed hir selfe a moste diligent defender and recouerer of the oldest and formost fayth of the Christians Thus as hir doings swarue not héerein from Constantines â–ª as you pretende so hath she no lesse right and authoritie in hir dominion than Constantine had in his and all Princes ought to haue in theirs béeing all as S. Paule sayth Gods ministers in this behalfe To the which senteÌ„ce of S. Paule with Chrysostomes and Eusebius iudgement theron full coldely ye say If S. Paule call the ciuill Magistrate a minister bicause through feare he constrayneth the wicked to embrace the godly doctrine as by your saying S. Chrysostome construeth it we are well content therwith Now well ye be content therwith as your obstinate refusal of this the Princes ministerie the stormes counterblastes ye rayse agaynÌ„st it do declare so also that ye be not halfe pleased with Chrysostomes construction theron how well soeuer ye would seeme to be contented appeareth in this your pinching wringing of Chrysostomes sentence by the Bishop cited For neither the Bishop cited him as you say he doth neither you cite Chrysostome fully nor rightly whiche argueth ye are not very well contented therwith Chrysostome sheweth not that the prince is called the minister of God onely bicause through feare he constrayneth the wicked to embrace the godly doctrine but also he speaketh of honoring coÌ„mending or aduancing whereby he prepareth mens mindes to be the more apte to receyue the worde of doctrine Which phrase of Chrysostome the worde of doctrine ye could not also abide least ye should haue ouerturned thereby all those points of doctrine that are not contained in the worde of God whiche neuerthelesse ye terme godly doctrine though God in his worde hath not allowed the same but are the traditions and commaundements of men And thus making what doctrine it liketh you godly or vngodly and reseruing to your selues the authoritie thereof ye say ye are well content that the ciuill magistrate be a minister bicause through feare he coÌ„strayneth that is to say ye make him serue your turne to hang to draw to burne to racke to banish to emprison and to force men to embrace what doctrine you appoint and tell him is godly doctrine This ye be well content withall This ye call his best ministerie And that this is his setting forth of Christes true religion that this is his preaching the same with his imperiall decrees and proclamations But if once he take vppon him carefully to examine by the worde of God whether those doctrines and that religion that ye pretende to be godly and the old and former faith be so or no and finding them cleane contrary he remoue them by force coÌ„straine his subiects to embrace the doctrine of Gods worde and so prepare them to receyue the truth by punishing the wicked and obstinate seducers by placing in their roumes and honoring the godly setters forth of the worde of doctrine then in no case ye are well content therewith but raile at and sclaunder the doings of such a Prince and deuise al the trecheries that ye can to his destruction Neuerthelesse would ye well consider what here once againe M. St. you haue grauÌ„ted That the best ministerie and seruice of the great Constantine rested in the setting foorth of Gods true religion Then if the setting forth thereof be the Princes best ministery and seruice may he not Iudge of his best ministery and seruice yea how shall he set forth that whereof he shall not iudge Of other partes of his ministerie he may iudge and may he not Iudge of his beste ministerie are the setting forth of ciuill lawes properly a part of his office bicause they be a good parte of his ministerie is the setting forth of true religion being the best parte as ye are content to call it no parte at al thereof or not rather if it be his best ministerie it is the best part of his office also And seing the setting forth of true religioÌ„ is not properly a ciuill matter but distinct therefrom then doth the beste parte of the Princes office consist in the ministerie of an ecclesiasticall matter and that of such an one as containes the ouersight of all other matters ecclesiasticall For as in true religion they are or ought to be all coÌ„teyned so in the setting forth of theÌ„ is coÌ„tained their ouersight direction For how can he well set forth any thing that he ouerâ—…eeth not nor directeth which ouersight and direction being the supreme gouernment that the Quéenes Maiestie only claymeth and we ascribe vnto hir how haue ye not graunted withall M. St. that this supremacie ouer all causes Ecclesiasticall aboue all other things belongeth to hir Maiestie But for all this that he him selfe hath graunted or the Bishop hath inferred saith M. Stapleton Neither this that ye here alleage out of place nor al the residue which ye reherse of this CoÌ„stantine with whose doings ye furnish hereafter sixe full leaues can importe this superioritie as we shall there more at large specifie This is alleaged out of place ye say M. St. for Constantine But who seeth not that this is but a pelting quarrel the Bishop on good consideration order declareth both by Chrysostoms exposition Constantines example how this sentence of S. Paule that the Prince is Gods minister stretcheth not only to his ministerie in ciuil but also in causes Ecclesiastical But this is alleaged out of place â–ª say you It is no meruaile M. Stap. if it séeme out of place with you for all is alleaged out of place that hauing any place displaceth your assertion And thus pretending it is alleaged out of place ye passe it ouer post vs offâ—…il an other time when ye wil declare it more at large ad Calendas Graecas when ye shall haue more leasure But sir had ye any leasure at this time ye might better haue satisfied your Reader to haue fully answered here to that is here obiected and not thus to dallie off the matter till another time But there is no remedie the reader must haue pacieÌ„ce and waite your furder leasure Neuerthelesse when ye shall M. St. vouchsafe to méete
that any euer noted him of heresie in this point And I thinke my opinion therein to be more true than yours for proofe whereof I will be reported by such witnesses as I thinke you will not except against euen by your Colledge of Diâ—…es in Louaine Who affirme in their censure vpon this authour that Pâ—…a solum religiosa com â—…endat c. Nicephorus coÌ„mendeth only godly and religious things Nicephoâ—… historia ecclesiaâ—…â—…yois mandâ—… c. not only the ecclesiastical historie of faith and religion may be printed but with much and publike profite of the Church This coulde not haue bene true but an euident false lie if that the author as you saye had so highly aduaunced the Emperour for restoring and maintaining of that heresie Moreouer in the verie title of the boke priuileged by the Emperour Ferdinand he is entituled with this Epithete scriptor verè catholicus â–ª a writer Catholike indeede and so likewise by that name of a Catholike writer he is highly commeÌ„ded to the Emperor Ferdinande both by Lazius a catholike and Langus a catholike as you accept the name of catholike who traÌ„slated him out of Greke into Latine at the said Emperors commaundemeÌ„t Who also in plain speach to the Emperor affirmeth Volumen Nicephori de vera synceraque pietate conscriptum esse the volume of Nicephorus is writteÌ„ eueÌ„ of true sincere godlines But what néede we cite all these against you when that herein ye coÌ„troll your self in your fourth boke of this counterblast for although ye there saye he is no Papist nor a Latine but a Grecian infected also with their schisme yet notwithstaÌ„ding ye grauÌ„t he is in al other things catholike thus ye mollifie the matter with the name of scisme dally with Nicephor there which is yet somewhat gentler than to make him an heretike an high aduancer of heresies as here ye do And there yée promised to stande to his arbitrement about you Popes praises why then so storme ye at him here for his iudgement in the Princes praises But still I sée we must beare with you so must al your doctors especially sith ye be here caried awaye in so huge a raging tempest of your furie against the allegations of Nicephorus here cited by the B. And good cause ye had to kick and winch thereat for they rub ye a litle on the gall and therefore you not onely slaunder Nicephorus being the author but fourthly also and wherevpon you chiefly stande most 〈◊〉 ye reuile the Emperour calling his doinges wicked working and his person a wretched heretike whom notwithstanding this your railing not onely Nicephorus commendeth for a most godly Prince but also LaÌ„gus in his owne preface and his other notes to the Preface of Nicephorus giuing him as great a praise saying he was an Emperour flourishing in all vertues and many ornamentes Againe An Emperour begotten by the verye prouidence of God. Againe Godlynesse and religion was from the beginning of his Empire his greatest care And that to him were giuen the chiefest vertues of an Emperour â–ª Againe In this Emperour being absolute almost in all vertues and ornamentes is portrayed apaterne of a most excellent Prince Yea that he was another Noe another Moses Againe This was the Emperours chiefe prayse that he attayned all the whole vertues of the best auncient Princes And that the Emperours godlynesse and religion is commended chiefly among his other vertues Thus doth your catholike LaÌ„gus in his notes vpoÌ„ Nicephor preface set him out coÌ„trary to that you say was a wicked worker and wretched heretike But wherto in the end do you so reuile this emperor forsoth euen to this end by him not only to deface the B. allegation but also to dashe dawne the Princes supreme gouernment as though it consisted altogither or chiefly herevpon For so you make your conclusion of this part saying And thus withall ye see vpon how good amaÌ„ vpon how good a cause M. Horne buildeth his new supremacie to plucke downe the Popes old supremacie As for the newnesse of this supremacie and likewise the oldnesse of your Popes supremacie is nowe M. Stapleton no coÌ„uenient place to discusse it hath partly ben touched before shal God willing be examined more herafter In the mean seasoÌ„ good leaue haue ye to crake of old vpbraid new at your pleasure so long as you bring no new but old rotteÌ„ proues therof though here ye alledge neither new nor old at al you wil neuer I perceiue leaue your old fashioÌ„s ye threap on the B. that he buildeth this supremacy on this emperor No M. St. the B. buildeth on no such grouÌ„ds but on the word of god It is you that build the Popes supremacie on meÌ„s donatioÌ„s the most of your Popish doctrines traditioÌ„s of meÌ„s inueÌ„tioÌ„s The grounde of the Bishops argument as ye haue hearde was out of Gods worde that the Prince is Gods minister only he shewed it out of S. Augustine and Chrysostome and exemplified it by the example of Constantine wherein this ministerie doth chiefly consist With whome sith Nicephorus doth so agrée in the description of a Princes chiefe ministerie were Nicephorus otherwise an heretike or were he not in this he sheweth himselfe none and were it Andronicus or Emanuell and were he an hereticke in that point or were he sounde the Bishop medleth not withall nor groundeth or buildeth vpon him Onely he setteth forth Nicephorê° iudgemeÌ„t either what this Prince was or what he ought to be And proueth the the things which he commeÌ„deth him for whether he deserued such commendation or no let other examine are the principall pointes of a Princes chiefe ministerie And what hath the B. done here that your Catholike Langus doth not commending this Emperor to Ferdinandus likening Ferdinandus vnto him saying of him that either he was Sicut â—…um c. Such another as our historier depainteth him out in his ornaments in the moste part of all vertue to bee worshipped most like your Maiestie or else in the person of him declaring that he ought to be such an one as he described which is the maner of some Philosophers and also of Historiographers composing orations and bookes of great Princes he hath confirmed so many and so great ornamentes of your Maiestie foreseeing as it were euen then in his minde that his worke hereafter being turned into Latine shoulde at length be published vnder that Princes name whom he in Greke had most truly adorned with his prayse If it were lawful thus for your Langus to apply these Emperors prayses to the Emperor Ferdinand may not the Bishop apply them in general as a paterne of all good Princes duties and therfore where ye scoffe at this calling it in scorne a goodly and godly president setting your moâ—…kes aside I maye well aunswere with Langus whatsoeuer the Emperours iudgement or the Emperours life were or the author also of these
And what if it did not necessarily if it did it what is here the necessitie to or fro the matter and what if it did some necessariliâ—… though not all Yet ye see here is somwhat gotten to helpe the matter for warde Ye graunt this doing argueth a supremacie in some Ecclesiaâ—…call causes although not necessarilie But stâ—…pping backe againe ye â–ª say And 〈◊〉 in no 〈◊〉 Eccâ—…siasticall concerning the 〈◊〉 discussing and determinâ—…cion of the same Well and what if this also were graunted you that concerning the finall discussing and determination he had supremacie in no cause ecclesiasticall yet might it followe that in all other poynts except the finall discussing and determination he had the supremacie Verily say you waxing somewhat bolder without any perchance it is most playnly and certaynly true it dothe not And howe proue you this M. Stap. For say you euen in this schâ—…maticall councell and hereticall synagoge the Byshops played the chiefe part â–ª and they gaue the finall thoughé a wrong and wicked iudgement And verily then without any perchaunce either your selfe do make a foule lye or else bothe in calling the Councell and giuing the finall sentence also the Prince had the superioritie For whatsoeuer ye deniâ—… héere not 16 lynes before ye graâ—…nted that he â—…othe summoned the Councell and also that he and they anulled and reuoked that hys father had done at the Councell at Lions Lo heere in the annulling and reuoking which was the finall discussing and determination â–ª ye bothe ioyne hiâ—… with them and place him before them And thuâ—… vnawares whyle ye speake agaynst the truthe ye wotte not what or care not howe ye wrappe your selfe in contradictions and make your selfe a lyer Your seconde parcell is onely agaynst the order of the sentences collected by the Byshop asking him what honor he hath got for al his craâ—…tie cooping or cunning â–ª and smoth â—…oyning combining and incorporating a number of Nicephorus sentences togither For all these wordes you vse to outscoffe the matâ—…er and quarell at the placing of them vnorderly But all this whyle ye answere not one worde to any one worde in them and yet set you downe your marginall note with a solemne outâ—…rie O what a craftie Cooper and smothe Ioyner is master Horne But sée how handsomely it falleth out and how orderly euen where ye talke of order â–ª For where ye 〈◊〉 haue set downe this your marginall exclamation at the comming to his second parte saying what honor haue ye go for all your craftie cooping c. Ye set it downe for haste in the matter before answered concerning the schismaticall Councel and the bishops dealing therin doing as the story telleth of Doctor Shawe in his sermon of the prayse of king Richarde the thirde that or euer the king was come to the sermon had already sayde his parte that he should haue sayde at his comming and so with shame inough out of place and out of time repeated the same But you may say thankes be to God inke and paper can not blushe and although I thinke you can do as little your self yet a Gods name let it passe be it but the Printers misplacing of the note although it fell out ill fauorâ—…dly to light euen there where ye reprehende the Byshop for ill ioyning togither of his senteÌ„ces and your booke ioyneth your marginal notes all besides your matter Now hauing thus stoode trifling in reprehending the order of the bishops collection of Nicephorus sentences bicause he setteth them downe togither béeing not so set togither but here there dispersed in the great long Preface of Nicephorus where the Reader now at the length should looke that M. Stap. should come to answere some poynt materiall of all the bishops allegations as though he had fully answered them all hauing sayde not so much as Buffe vnto any one sentence alleaged he repeateth his former vaunt full lustily saying What honor haue you I say wonne by this or by the whole thing it self little or nothing furthering your cause and yet otherwise playne schismaticall and hereticall For the which your handsome and holy dealing the author of the foresaide Homilie and you yea M. Iewell too are worthy exceeding thanks Is not héere a proper answere thus to iest out the matter with scoffes crakes raylings Surely M. St. what honor soeuer the bishop hath wonne by this or not wonne as he looketh for none at your haÌ„ds your thaÌ„ks ye may reserue for your friends you win much shame to your selfe your cause thus shamefully to â—…umble vp the matter all onely with out facing it Ye say the B. hath patched vp a number of Nicephorus sentences togither Why do ye not â—…ip a sunder those patches ' If he hath vsed craftie cooping cunning smoothe ioyning combining and incorporating it were your part to vnhoope theÌ„ to dissolue theÌ„ to answere them Tush say you what néede that they are al little or nothing furthering your cause Now M. Sta I thinke then they might be the easelier answered not so to skip ouer them like whip Sir Iohn at his morrow Masie But til you answere something to theÌ„ an vpright iudge will déeme them much to further our cause Although it is somewhat that ye grauÌ„t that yet a litle they further our cause â—… I think by that the reader hath wayed theÌ„ better he shal sée they so hinder your cause that ye thought it the best way to let them all alone And that the Reader may the better beholde bothe your dealing and the Byshops allegations so iudge how much or howe little they further the matter and whether they might haue bene thought worthy the answering as the Byshoppe hathe gathered them so will I set them downe Who hath glorified God more and shewed more feruent zeale sayth Nicephorus to the Emperour towardes him in pure religion without fayning than thou hast done Who hath with suche feruent zeale sought after the most sincere fayth muche indaungered or clensed agayne the holy table When thou sawest our true religion brought into perill with newe deuises brought in by counterfeite and naughtie doctrines thou diddest defende it moste paynefully and wisely thou diddest shewe thy selfe to be the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and staye in so horrible wauering and errour in matters beginning to faynte and to perishe as it were with shipwracke Thou arte the guyde of the profession of our fayth Thou haste restored the Catholike and vniuersall Church beeing troubled with new matters or opinions to the olde state Thou hast banished from the Church all vnlawfull and impure doctrine Thou hast clensed agayne with the worde of truthe the Temple from choppers and chaungers of the diuine doctrine and from hereticall deprauers thereof Thou haste bene set on fyre with a godly zeale for the diuine Table Thou haste established the doctrine Thou haste made constitutions for the same Thou haste entrenched the true religion with
mightie defences That which was pulled downe thou haste made vp agayne and haste made the same whole and sounde agayne with a conuenient knitting togither of all the partes and members To be shorte thou haste saythe Nicephorus to the Emperour established true religion and godlynesse with spirituall butresses namely the doctrine and rules of the auncient fathers These are the Bishops allegations out of Nicephorus for this Princes dealing in ecclesiastical matters Wherin are comprehended as eche man may sée all the chiefe ecclesiasticall causes The true religion the sincere fayth the diuine doctrine godlynesse making constitutions the fathers rules the catholike vniuersal church Neither ascribeth he to the Prince herein a power LegaÌ„tine froÌ„ Priest Byshop Patriarke or Pope muche lesse to be their onely executioner but vnder God he giueth him a supreme gouernement in calling him not onely the defender but the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay the guyde the restorer the clenser the establisher the entrencher and maker vp of all these things On the contrarie the puller downe and banisher of newe deuises counterfeit naughtie vnlawfull and impure doctrines of horrible errors and heretical deprauers And this his chief dealing herein to be most seemely for him and chiefly belonging to his princely office Dothe all this M. Stap. little or nothing further our cause if it doe not then it lyttle or nothing hindreth yours Why graunte ye not then vnto it if ye graunte but thus muche we wil vrge you little or nothing further for what is not héere conteined that is either conteined in the issue betwéene the Bishop and M. Feck or in the othe of the O. Maiesties supremacie that ye refuse to take But as light as yâ—… would séeme to make of this it pincheth you and ye dare not grauÌ„t nor answere any sentence therof Onely ye giue a snatche at a worde and bayte at the bishops marginal note vpoÌ„ these former allegatioÌ„s Wherin ye play like Alciates dogge at whom when one hurled a stone he let go him froÌ„ whom the stone came wreaked his anger on the stone So set you vpon the marginall note that in déede hitteth you a good souse but the allegations from wheÌ„ce the marginal note doth come ye let alone and fal to tugging of the note Only as I saide ye snatche at a word as though all the weight of the marginall note were setched only from thence and not from all these sentences But say you M. Home will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus He hath placed a note in the margine sufficient â—… trow to conclude his principall purpose And that is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is indeede a ioly marginall note But where findeth M Horne the same in his text for soothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering c. of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie But O more than childishe follie Coulde that craftie Cooper of thys allegation informe you no better master Horne was he no better seene in Grammer or in the profession of a schole master than thus foully and fondely to misse the true interpretation of the Latine worde for what other is suprema anchora in good Englishe than the laste anchor the laste refuge the extreme holde and staye to rest vpon As suprema verba doe signifie the laste wordes of a man in hys laste wyll as summa dies the laste daye supremum iudicium the laste iudgement with a number of lyke Phrases So suprema anchora is the laste anchor signifying the laste holde and staye as in the perill of tempeste the laste refuge is to caste anchor In suche a sense Nicephorus calleth this Emperour the laste the mightie and the holy anchor or stay in so horrible wauering and errour Signifying that nowe by him they were stayed from the storme of schisme as from a storme in the sea by casting the anchor the shippe is stayed But by the metaphore of an anchor to conclude a supremacie is as wyse as by the Metaphore of a Cowe to conclude a Saddle For as well dothe a saddle fitte a Cowe as the qualitie of an anchor resemble a supremacie But by suche beggerly shiftes a barren cause muste be vpholded First all is saide by the way of amplification to extoll the Emperour as in the same sentence he calleth him the sixt element reaching aboue Aristotels fifte body ouer the foure elementes with suche lyke Then all is but a Metaphore which were it true proueth not nor concludeth but expresseth and lightneth a truth Thirdly the Metaphore is ill translated and last of all worsse applied A sirra M. St. héere is a whot sturre and highe wordes A man would thinke all is nowe answered to the full and yet when all coÌ„mes to all héere is nothing of all this a do agaynst any one sentence of the Byshops allegations But the poore marginall note and one poore séelie worde of all these long allegations shall abye for this geare First ye say M. Stapl. that M. Horne will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus What ye meane by leesing I know not But it appeareth he may leâ—…e or finde them all for any thing ye wil answere to them Ye slinke for the nonce to the marginall note which is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is in deede say you a ioly marginal note but where findeth M. Horne the same in his texte forsoothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie Is there nothing M. Stap. in all these allegations that ye coulde sée wherfore the Bishop set downe his marginal note of the Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed but onely this sentence yea onely that worde do not all the other sentences importe as muche as this that he is the guyde of the profession of our fayth the restorer of the catholike and vniuersall Church the banisher from the Church of all vnlawful and impure doctrine the clenser of the temple with the worde of truth froÌ„ choppers and changers of the diuine doctrine and from hereticall deprauers thereof That he is the entrencher of true religion with mightie defences That he is the establisher of the doctrine and maker of constitutions for the same that he is the maker vp agayne the maker whole and sounde agayne of al that was pulled downe Might not all this to an indifferent reader be thought sufficient to answere the marginal note and comprehende in all poyntes as muche as the note yea though ye quite set aside the sentence and word wherat ye wrangle And yet with M. Stap. this one sentence must beare the weight of all that the bishop alleaged the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so
horrible wauering But go to let it do so presuppose that the bishop alleaged no more but this one sentence or that all the other little or nothing further the cause Yet dothe this onely sentence fully comprehende as muche as this marginall note conteâ—…neth Yea set also aside the word supreme that master St. quarell is at that in so horrible wauering and errour in matters beginning to faynte and to perishe as it were with shipwracke the Prince is the mightie and very holy anker or stay Sacris simul prophanis both in holy and prophane matters Doth not this mightie stay onely or chiefly vnder God of the Prince for al kinde of persons agaynst errors playnely argue a soueraigne helping power or supremacie in repayring of religion beeing decayed But M. Stapl. letting goe all this girdeth onely at this worde supreme bicause the byshop translated suprema anchora not the laste anchor but supreme anchor Héere first he falleth out with a Cooper I can not tell whome for missinforming the byshop As though the interpretatioÌ„ of supremus were so high a poynte that the byshop muste be taught of some â–ª Grammarian or scholemaster the English therof And bicause it is not englished in good Englishe full scholemaster like he taketh vpon him to expounde the same For what other is sayth he suprema anchora in good English than the laste anchor the laste refuge the extreme holde and stay to rest vpon Be it euen as you would haue it M. Stap. And thankes be to God that when you haue nothing to say agaynst the bishops allegation this is your last anchor your last refuge and extreme stay to rest vpon to finde faulte with the byshops englishe for not good english Though héere neither you can proue any false englishing which is common with you and when you haue all done supremus is bothe laste and chiefe and which way soeuer ye conster it supremus is supreme take it howe you list Although in the very proper derâ—…uation of the worde supremus comming of supra signifieth the chiefe or hyest And that it is called laste is but accessorie and improperly spoken for properly vltimus is last or extreâ—… by reason that the last things as added for the most part vppermost and the last doings are commonly the chiefest But what neede contention here de laua caprina of a matter of nothing It were more fitte ye had reserued this your earnest answere to some earnest matter But as they say In refrigidissima feruâ—… in fâ—…entissima friges In the coldest matters you be boyling hoâ—…te and in the hottest matters you be key colde To auoyde therfore contention as ye ought not to controll the Bishops English being not false so am I for my parte content to admit your English and I thinke so will the Bishop toâ—… For setting aside your quareling it coâ—…th not hiâ—… but all in the ende commeth to one effect You say it signifieth the last anchor the last refuge the extreme holde and stay to rest vpon Uery well sayde M. St. 〈◊〉 is not that the chiefe which we must flée vnto holde stay and rest vpon when all other helpes do faylâ—… And so ye graunt the Prince vnder God to be the chiefest refuge and stay both to the lay and Clergie in all wâ—…rings of doctrine and errâ—… of Religion â–ª Is not this now asmuch as the Bishops note contained the Princes supremacie in restoring Religion decayed You exemplifiâ—… the matter thus As suprema verba do signifie the last wordes of a man in his last will as 〈◊〉 dies the last day supremum iudicium â–ª the last iudgement â–ª with a number of the like phrases â–ª True in déede M. St. but ye should withall remember â—…uen in these examples that the last will is the chiefest will and al the other former willes giue place to the last will. And the last day is the chiefest day and by a speciall prerogatiue called Dies Doâ—…ni the day of the Lorde and Dies magnus â–ª the great day And the last iudgement is the chiefest iudgement when all iudges shall be iudged and therefore God the father hath onely giuen it to Christ bicaâ—…se he is simply the chiefest of all And here in earth also he is the chiefest iudge that is last appealed vnto Thus M. St. your owne phrases fitte the Bishop well And as it doth in these so in this present phrase Suprema anchora say you Is the last anchor signifying the last hold stay as in the perill of teÌ„pest the last refuge is to cast anchor And is not this then also the chiefest refuge and stay In such a sense say you Nicephorus calleth his Emperour the last the mightie the holy anchor or stay so in horrible wauering and errour signifying that now by him they were stayed from the storine of schisme as from a storme in the sea by casting the anchor the shippe is stayed This is in déeâ—… M. St. the meaning of Nicephorus And do ye not sée what chiefe dealing it giueth aboue all other only to the Prince in the storme of a schisme or errour or other ecclesiasticall matter wauering is not the anchor in a storme the chiefest and most principall stay doth any thing stay the ship more or better than an anchor or is there any other ordinarie stay therof Then by your own expositioÌ„ the Prince is made here the chiefe the principal the only stay in such cases which fully coÌ„cludeth all the matter notwithstaÌ„ding al your scoffes therfore where ye coÌ„clude saying But by the metaphore of an anchor to conclude a supremacie is as wise as by the metaphore of a Cow to conclude a Saddle For aswell doth a saddle fit a Cow as the qualitie of an anchor resemble supremacie But by such beggerly shiftes a barren cause must be vpholded Ye haue sadled the Cow M. St. haÌ„dsomly ye are the fittest maÌ„ that I sée to ride vpoÌ„ hir for this coÌ„clusion sheweth you as wise a maÌ„ according to the old saying as euer spurred a Cow for admitting the metaphore of an anchor no further than your selfe haue sayed that as by it the ship is stayed froÌ„ stormes in the seas so by the Prince all the people are stayed froÌ„ Schisme wauering errours in religion if the anchor be the chiefest stay next to Gods help in the one is not the Prince the chiefest stay next to Gods helpe in the other although therfore ye â—…elie the B. to say he concluded only therevpon for before ye sayde he concluded on the worde Suprema which he did not neither but on all the whole allegacions altogither yet holdeth this conclusion euen by your owne sayings better I â—…row than you will holde on your sadled Cowes backe as fit a rider as ye be except ye sit the faster that the Cow cast not a calfe as bigge as M. St. As for the B. shifts what they are what beggerly shifts they are
euery reader will soone iudge that seeth how you shift off the matter Ye answere nothing to any senteÌ„ce of the B. allegatioÌ„s ye runne at randon to other â—…lim flamtales ye finde fault at other â—…thours about other matters ye picke quarrels about bare names ye snatch at the marginal note let go the matter ye defâ—…aÌ„t about the only word supremus more like â—… beggerly Pedantie than a grammarlike scholemaster all but to raise mistes couÌ„terblasts pretending to dissipate discusse mistes al but to cary the reader froÌ„ the flat round answering of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet are al these no beggerly shifts of yours In déede M. St. these are no coÌ„mon beggers shifts these are 〈◊〉 shifts than al men vse or thaÌ„ euery maÌ„ caÌ„ see they are belike borowed of the beggerly friers of Louaine but from wheÌ„ce soeuer ye haue them the cause is both beggerly barraine that in stéede of good plaine answering seketh such shifte of shiftes but hold your peace 〈◊〉 the begger it is a bad sacke that can abide no clouting Now hauing thus shifted of the B. allegations with these shiftes you gather them vp in a briefe recapitulacion to excuse the matter First all is sayd by the way of amplification to extoll the Emperour as in the same sentence he calleth him the sixt Element reaching aboue Aristotels fifte bodie ouer the foure Elements with such like As though this amplifying of his estate were any argument for you to depresse the same And sith as him self protesteth he meant no flatterie this amplification meaneth yet a truth of his excelleÌ„cie and supreme estate Otherwise he could not well haue so called him although he sayeth not altogither as you say neither for he micioâ—…eth not Aristotle at all nor any his fift body nor speaketh of the foure Elements but he saith Et vt ille ab vtraque c. And that he receyuing from both of them speaking of godlinesse and sâ—…licitie that which was proper to them both might make perfect to all men a newe and in very deede a maruelous coÌ„moditie and helpe to woâ—…e a certaine stable firmament and as I might call it a sixt and an eternall Element in diuine matters beginning to slyde perishing by shipwracke offering thee the great supreme and in deede the holy Anchor of so horrible a wauering and errour both in holy and in prophane matters That in thee they might represent a sownde stabilitie to others also that are with thee This being the amplification of Nicephorus which is in déede a great amplification it sheweth that he meant to coÌ„mende him very highly for his supreme dealing in religion not as M. St. would haue it any thing to abase the same which is quite contrarie to the authours meaning But then saieth M. Stap. all is but a metaphore which were it true proueth not nor concludeth but exprefleth and lighteneth a truth Thirdly the metaphore is ill translated and last of all worse applied For the traÌ„slation M. St. it is answered before thanks be to God ye can not proue it false And yet not to coÌ„tend yours is admitted and maketh against you too â—…ueÌ„ by your owne tale But what hindreth this that this worde anchor is but a metaphore doth a metaphore being a true metaphore proue nothing but lighten a truth doth not a true thing proue a truth be it metaphore or what soeuer it be be it true as for a metaphore doth it not proue the thing that it is resembled vnto Christ is called bread a vine a stone a Lion a way a dore a sheperde do not these metaphors proue and conclude in him the reasons and proportions wherefore he is so called do we not by these metaphors coÌ„clude that he is our norisher our life our stabilitie our strength our guide and defence our onely meanes and entrance into heauen The Emperour is called here the chief Anchor Yet al is but a Metaphore say you What theÌ„ we go not about to proue him an Anchor But euen as your selfe expounde it we proue him by the metaphore of an Anchor to be a stay and so being the chiefe Anchor it proueth and concludeth that he is the chiefe stay And this is ynough that that it proueth thus much As for the Anchor take it to your selfe and get an Asse to your Cowe to carie it Neuertheles if this were also remitted to you that being a metaphore it prooueth not nor concludeth but expresseth and lightneth a truth What 〈◊〉 this the matter So the truth therby be expressed and lightned although the Bishop thereby concluded not his matter but onely lightned and expressed the truth thereof Were not this ynoughe at least to stoppe your brabling and rayling agaynst him Except ye be of Iâ—…mbres and Membres disposition that of purpose will resist the truth and not expresse but suppresse not lighten but obscure the same as the Phariseys did and you Papistes after them haue done and labour still to do But ye cannot oppresse the truth for euer yeaeuen your striuing agaynst it shall the more agaynst your willes expresse and lighten the truth Your small conclusion is verie short Last of all say you it is worse applied but so long as ye shewe neither howe where nor whie a man might aunswere you a shorte horse is soone curryed And when you applie your minde to aunswere more substantially I will take paynes to replie and cuâ—…rie your answere more smoothly As for the rest of your Counterblast it is but the blowing vp of the victorie before ye haue it It aunswereth nothing to the matter but is a crake of your triumph that ye wene ye haue gotten much good do it you master Stapleton Nowe whereas say you in the beginning of your matter the substance of your proues hereafter standing in stories yt haue demeaned your selfe so clerkly skilfully here the reader may hereof haue a taste and by the way of preuention and anticipation haue also a certaine preiudiciall vnderstanding what he shall looke for at your handes in the residue VVherefore God be thanked that at the beginning hath so deciphered you whereby we may so much the more yea the boldlier without any feare of all your antiquitie herfater to be shewed cheerefully proceede on Thou séest here a iolie triumph gentle Reader and I doubt not but thou séest what a great gaine he hath wonne Do but call for his cardes I warrant you he will be ashamed to shew them But alas good man giue him leaue he must crake of somthing to comfort himselfe withall and set a fayre viser on an yll fauoured visage to outface the matter when nothing else will helpe it But God be thanked indéede that hath thus deciphered his noughtie reckonings and sophisticall summes filled vp with bare Ciphers in Algorisme that furnished a place in steade of an aunswere and were in déede no aunswere nor anie iust accompt but as they say he
neede not name be too too liuely and pregnant examples of this your true but needelesse and impertinent admonition How needelesse or impertinent the Bishops admonition was is séene already euen by your owne graunt thereto But how needelesse in déede impertinent altogither are these your vaine admonitions which ye cal a returne euery body may sée And how fitly they returne with a recumbeÌ„tibus vpon your owne side and how you controll your self for running to farre and yet ye runne at randon furder about the Countries to Boheme FrauÌ„ce Scotland Germanie and other namelesse countries to make them examples of your marginall note Heresies the destruction of common weales But thanks be to God none of their coÌ„mon weales are destroyed it is but your maliciouse slaunder on them And if they haue bene troubled or weakened the Papistes practises haue euer bene the chiefe originals thereof what soeuer ye pretende to deface the Gospell by calling all doctrine Heresie be it neuer so pure and holy if it be not by your popish Church allowed calling all countries and coÌ„mon weales destroyed how soeuer they florish in prosperitie peace and godlinesse if they refuse the Egiptian bondage of your spirituall Pharao the Pope But why mention you not all that parte of Hungarie that acknowledging obedience to your Pope neuerthelesse were ouercome and conquered of the Turkes why forget ye your mightie bulwarke and holy knights of the Rhodes I wisse they were the Popes champions and yet his blessing could not saue them froÌ„ the Turkish bondage You say there is some other place that ye néede not name what meane ye thereby Rome it selfe that so many times hath bene sacked destroyed and lefte waste and at this day the olde Citie for the most parte not inhabited except of owles and vermine in the ruines thereof and the new Citie deftled besides Idolatrie and superstition with most notorious filthy fornication and stewes of courtizans your Pope him selfe beyng the vicar of bawdes in maintayning his estate by such filthy lucre And this is counted among you the most holy common weale yea such a mirrour to all other that those Cities whiche conforme them selues to this common weale of Rome can neyther erre nor be in daunger of destruction But euen so sayde Sodom and Gomor till their destruction came sodaynly vpon them M. Stapl. hauing thus puffed vp his counterblast with these discourses in both his foresaide parts descendeth now to the thirde And now might I here breake of sayeth he from this and go further forth sauing that I cannot suffer you to bleare the readers eyes as though the Emperours Theodosius or Valentinianus sayings or doings should serue any thing for your pretensed primacie In déede M. Stapleton it is more than highe time that you had broken off long or this except you would or could haue answered â–ª better to the purpose and not to haue driuen your counterblast furder forth with such heapes of digressions needelesse to the matter but not needelesse to your purpose to bleare the readers eyes when otherwise â–ª you néeded a materiall answers But here such is your zeale ye can not suffer the Bishop to bleare the readers eyes This zeale M. Stapleton were coÌ„mendable in you if you ment good soothe or the Bishop had bleared the readers eyes and not simply and plainly set downe the truth that euen the bleared eyes if they were not cleane blinded with ouermuch affection might well beholde it But it is rather to be feared that as ye played before pretending to dissipate and discusse mistes where in déede none was ye raysed mistes and caste cloudes least the reader should haue espied the matter as it was so here though the readers eyes were cleere ye would bleare and dimme them and if he were bleare eyed any whit before ye would soone mende the matter and make him starke blinde For euen as ye there did so eftsones do you here The Bishops alleaging of these Emperours stayeth you froÌ„ breaking off and from going further foorth â–ª ye can not suffer the Bishop to bleare the readers eyes And yet to any thing that the Bishop out of these Emperours alleageth what soeuer the matter meane ye answere not one worde Except this be an answere as they say to sette the Hares head against the Goose iublettes to set one allegation against another If the Bishop hath bleared the readers eyes he cited as long an allegation as yours shewe then where he bleared them If he cited any thing false name the place But false or true say something to it or to some piece of it and not thus slinke away without any answere at all to the whole or any parte thereof What shall the reader iudge if he can see any thing but that the Bishop goeth plainely to worke and it is you that would bleare his eyes and put them out if ye could to kéepe the reader still in ignorance and wilfull blindenesse If the Bishops allegation be such as deserueth no answere at the least ye might haue sayde so Howbeit that you should not so bleare the readers eyes and that the reader should sée both the Bishops plaine dealing and the playne truth of the matter and how fully it proueth the Bishops purpose and the Princes dutie care charge and supreme gouernment ouer matters Ecclesiasticall I will set downe not onely so much as the Bishop alleaged but the whole Epistle Firste hauing shewed that the suretie of the common weale dependeth vppon Gods religion and what a great kindred and societie is betwixt these twayne true Religion and Iustice â—…ith therfore we sayeth the Emperour are constituted of God to be the Kinges and are the knitting togither or ioynture of godlinesse and prosperitie in the subiects we keepe the societie of these twayne neuer to be sundred and so farre forth as by our foresight we procure peace vnto our subiectes we minister vnto the augmenting of the common weale but as we might say being seruaunts to our subiects in all things that they may liue godly and be of a religiouse conuersation as it becommeth godly ones VVe garnish the common weale with honor hauing care as it is conuenient of them both that is peace and true religion for it cannot be that diligently prouiding for the one we should not care in like sorte also for the other But we trauaile earnestly in this thing aboue the rest that the Ecclesiasticall state may remayne sure both in such sort as is seemely for Gods honor and fitte for our times that it may continue in tranquillitie by common consent without variance that it may be quiet through agreement in Ecclesiasticall matters that the godly religion may be preserued vnreproueable and that the life of such as are chosen into the Clergie and the great Priesthode may be cleere from all faulte Thus doth the Emperour protest of the guidance care charge that he thought belonged to his hie office not onely in prouiding
tâ—…cet consentire videtur for he that holdeth his peace seemeth to consent Howbeit I crie you mercie the case is altered For there ye defend your client here ye oppugne your aduersarie And belike ye haue some priuiledge from Rome euer to turne the matter so as may best serue your turne But and it were not for this your priuiledge surely I woulde further aske ye howe chaunce so soone ye haue forgotten your late vaunt and euen in this leafe wherin ye crake that ye walke not in generall wordes but restrayne your selfe to particulars now stande quarrelling about the generall words of the statute and mocke the B. for particulars if ye shalâ—… laye forth your priuiledge to doe this when ye thinke ye may get some aduauntage thereby yet I thinke your priuiledge stretcheth not both to wrest the state of the question in hande and of the issue to the statute and to wrest and belâ—…e the statute as ye please and thereof to gather what false conclusion ye lyst For first ye do the Bishop wrong â—…th Maister Feckenham hath set vp his issue to be prooued Anye suche gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes to driue the bishop from thence to the wordes of the statute that expresse it in all ecclesiasticall causes Herein ye offer the bishop wrong For by this issue betwéene them though the Bishop in euery Prince continually alleage not ensamples in euery Ecclesiasticall cause but nowe and then in all nowe and then in some for your Popes daily encroched on Princes and at length got the mâ—…st of all yet hath the Bishop proued and satisfied the vertue of this issue Any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Howbeit ye do him further wrong to chalenge him here for leauing out any poynt of gouernment in any Ecclesiasticall cause that euen the statute giueth hir maiestie that is to say A supreme gouernement in all things and causes Doth not the bishop set downe this M. St hath he not specified euen the same wordes oftentimes already and doth not his particular specifications coÌ„teine as much here also Nâ—… say you he leaueth out the principall cause ecclesiasticall and most necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall Soft M. St. stay here or euer we demaund what this cause should be I demaunde only now why ye say supreme gouernour Ecclesiasticall is this your honestie in handling the statute doth the Quéene take vpon hir to be a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall or doth the statute giue this title to hir maiestie A supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall the statute saith A supreme gouernor in all Ecclesiastical causes â–ª And is there no differeÌ„ce betwene an ecclesiastical gouernor a gouernor in eccles causes but you vse this your false captious speach to make that people beleue the slaÌ„der that ye raise on hir Maiesty as though she toke vpon hir to bean ecclesiasticall person to be a B. and a minister of the worde sacraments and by hir chiefe gouernmeÌ„t ouer bishops chalenged to be a chief or head bishop of Bishops like vnto your Pope And so hauing raised vp this slauÌ„der on the Quenes maiestie the statute ye chalenge the Bishop for omitting a principall ecclesiastical cause But what is that you aske forsooth iudgement say you determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise Here againe M. Stapl. ye speake as captiously for if by this iudgement ye meane an authoritie aboue the doctrine of Gods worde as all your side maintaineth that the word of God receyueth his authoritie of the Churches iudgement â–ª which Church ye call the Priestes and is authenticall bicause they haue ratified it so to be otherwise it were not true nor good then in déede as the Bishop hath set downe no such iudgement determining or approuing of doctrine neyther so coulde he haue done for the Quéenes Maiestie â—…keth no such supreme gouernement vpon hir nor such supreme gouernement is due to any other than to God alone who hath by Iesus Christ his sonne already fully determined in his holy worde what doctrine is good and true â–ª And what doctrine soeuer is besides that is neyther true nor good whosoeuer take vpon him to iudge determine and approue the same be it eyther your Pope or your Church neuer so much yea were it an angell from heauen â—…e must 〈◊〉 helde accursed But if ye meane by iudging determining and approuing of doctrine such authority as only acknowledgeth giueth testimonie admitteth alloweth setteth forth and strengthneth the doctrine of Christes onely worde not aâ—… ruler ouer it but as seruant vnto it and the reiecting or abolishing of all other doctrine against or besides that wordâ—… then hath the bishop not left out this ecclesiasticall cause in the statute though not iudging in that maner that the ecclesiasticall gouernour Bishop or Minister doth in his sermons or debating thereon but for so much as belongeth to a supreme gouernour And so sayth the bishop The gouernment that the Queenes Maiestie most iustly taketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the eccl. state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion buitie and quietnesse of Christes Church visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schisâ—…es abuses offences contempts and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer Marke these words a little better M. Stap. and I trust you shall sée it was you that ouershot your selfe and lefte out good attention béeing caried away in a cocke brayne â—…ume with too hastie a preiudice And that the bishop left out héere no part of such iudgement determination and approuing of doctrine which is true and good which is otherwise as belongeth to suche a supreme gouernour as groundeth himselfe on Gods iudgement â–ª determining and approbation What do ye thinke is true religion no good doctrine with you If it be the bishop hath not omitted it Can he care and prouide for it direct and set it foorth without iudgement without the determining of it to be good and true without the approbation of it On the other side are errours and heresies no false nor naughtie doctrine with you if they be then the bishop named them and thinke ye the visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting can be without a iudgement and determination agaynst them Then sithe he in playne spéeche ascribeth all this to the Prince which fully answereth all this that ye call for if as I sayd ye vnderstande this iudgement determining and approuing a right ye shewe what a very continuall wrangler ye be where no cause at all is giuen But incontinent ye declare what ye meane by this iudgement of doctrine For what say you is more necessarie in the Churche than that the supreme gouernour therof shoulde haue power in all doubtes and controuersies to decide the truthe and
he was a good king in ouerséeing the Priestes do their dueties and not him selfe intruding into the doing of their duties But of this exaÌ„ple we haue heard somwhat already in answering master Stapleton and we shal haue more agayne in M. Saunders fourth Chapter and therfore I reserue my selfe to the larger answere of it To this he addeth an Item of Iosaphat saying Itemque c. And also Iosaphat the king of Iuda distinguishing both powers sayde to the Leuites and the Priests Amarias the Priest and your Bishop stil gouerne in those things that perteine to god Moreouer Zabadias the sonne of Ismaell who is the captayne in the house of Iuda shal be ouer those workes that perteyne to the office of the king Beholde other thinges perteyne to the office of the Bishop and other to the the kinges office This we haue beholden alreadie in Master Stapletons obiection of the same and there may you M. Saunders beholde the answere And thus muche agayne for the vse of both these powers Now thirdly for the end therof saith M. Saunders Of the ende of both powers not the last but the middle ende that the ciuill power toucheth nought but this lyfe Christ saith Feare not theÌ„ that kil the body but they can not kill the soule And agayne the Apostle willeth vs to pray for kings those that are in authoritie that we may hue a quiet and peaceable life A quiet life therefore is the last ende of the ciuill power dwelling without the Churche But of that which is in the Church it is not the last but yet the proper ende it is VVhyle in the meane time the eccl. power belongeth to the lyfe to come as Christ hath sayde whatsoeuer ye lose on earth shall be loosed in heauen To this distinction of the endes of these powers I answere it is false not only the laste ende as he graunteth but the meaner endes also of the ciuill power in the church of Christ stretche further than this lyfe I appeale to the Princes institution and office Deuter. 17. I appeale to all the doings of the godly Kings Iudges and ciuill magistrates described in the scripture I appeale to Constantine the great that thought religion to be the chiefe ende of hys gouernment Yea I appeale to the places that euen héere M. Sanders citeth for his purpose â–ª manifestly wresting â—… mayming that of S. Paule to Timothie For he sayth not onely Ut quietam tranquillam vitam agaâ—…us That we may leade a quiet and peaceable life and there endeth but he addeth further withall in omni pietate honestate in all godlynesse honestie In which two words chiefly al godlinesse what is included is at large declared against master Stapleton But before this place M. Sanders citeth the testimonie of Christ that the prince can do no more but kill the body I answere Christe makes not the proper ende of the Princes power to kill the body but rather as you said before out of S. Paule to saue it To kill it is an accidentall tude of his power yet Iwisse Christ spake not there onlye of ciuil Princes but as muche agaynst the tyrannie of the highe Priests or any other that woulde persecute the ministers of Christ to death as your Pope you his chaplaynes do But I pray you M. sand may not an ill Prince wrest his authoritie to destroy the soule also with maynteyning Idolatrie false religion In déede he can not kill the soule for properly it can not be killed But that kind of killing that the soule may suffer which is sinne and damnation the rewarde of sinne with the one striken of the deuil by malice and wounded of him selfe by errour with theother striken of God by Iustice and deserued of him selfe by sinne may not the ill Prince make his power be a meane therto and may not an ill priest on this wise kill the soule as wel and sooner than he I wot what your pope Pius 2. was wont to say Malâ—… medâ—…ci corpus imperiti sacerdotes animam oâ—…cîdunt Ill Phisitions kil the body but vnskilfull Priests kill the soule You say your power stretcheth to the life to come In déede M sand the true eccl. power stretcheth to the life to come I feare me yours doth stretch to life as ye say but not to come but onely to the present life of the body but to death of body and soule both nowe and to come for euer Besides al this I appeale euen to your owne selfe M. sand that affirme the ciuil power in the church of Christ to stretch to farre further more proper endes thaÌ„ this life for in your fourth chapter folowing ye haue this quotation Christianâ—…rum regna leâ—…ularia non sunt Christian kingdomes are not worldly Wheron ye haue these words Moreouer the kingdomes of the faythfâ—…ll Princes whose people feare â–ª God are not altogither earthly or worldly for in that parte that they haue beleeued in Chryst they haue as it were lefte to be of the worlde and haue begonne to be members of the eternall kingdome For although the outwarde face of thinges which is founde in kingdomes meere secular be in a Christian kingdome Yet sithe the spirite of man is farre the moste excellent parte of him and the whole spirite acknowledgeth Christ his king and onely Lorde I see nothing why Christian kingdomes ought not to be rather iudged spirituall according to their better parte than earthly And this is the cause why now so long since those which gouerned the people of God were wont to be anointed of his ministers no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priests For euen the kings them selues also are after a sort â–ª partakers of the spiritual ministerie wheÌ„ they are anoynted Not that they shoulde do those thinges that are committed to the onely priestes hereto orderly consecrated but that those thinges whiche other kinges referre to a prophane and worldly ende these kinges shoulde nowe remember that they ought to directe to an holy ende For when they them selues are meere spirituall it is fitte that they shoulde wyll that all their thinges shoulde also be accounted as it were spirituall Loe M. Saunders in these wordes ye confesse farre other proper endes and farre other estates also in the ciuill power of Christian Princes than this lyfe of the body and the quiet tranquillitie therof And therfore what néede further witnesse when your selfe are not onely contrarie to your selfe but also beare witnesse agaynst your selfe Now wheÌ„ M. Sanders hath thus prosecuted these three differences of these two estates he collecteth his conclusion saying But if the ecclesiasticall power differ from the ciuill in the originall in the vse and in the ende and so well the beginning of the ecclesiasticall power as the vse and ende is farre the more worthy shall they not of wise men be iudged mad which either confounde these powers
made a King Quéene alone Now to this he addeth out of Esai saying Esai foretolde that kings shoulde bee the nourishers of the Church of Christe and casting dovvne their countenance to the earth shall vvorship hir and streight he adioyneth thou shalt knovv that I am the Lord for this verely is the signe that the Lord raigneth in vs if vve yelde so much vnto his church that the Ministers of Christe are greater than any King or Queene As this sentence is placed both withoute all order and coherencie so the reason is very sclender and standes on this that the Priests are the Churche that Esai here speakes on which as it is apparaÌ„t false so it is not to this purpose For the supreme gouernment of a godly Prince giueth not onely an honour to the Churche but to the Priests also and yet his supremacie safe But sée how this sentence hits him as the rest For if kings and Quéenes be likened to Nourses and Nourses haue charge not onely of féeding but also of gouerning then do Kings Quéenes both féede the Church although not by teching yet by causing the truth to be taught and gouerne the Church also And if by the Church is chiefly ment the priestes then the same kind of Princes feeding and gouerning like to Nourses stretcheth to priestes also and so the similitude makes against him His other argument of dispensing Gods mysteries and Sacramentes to the king is diuers times alreadie aunswered vnto and therefore as superfluous I passe it ouer And thus farre for his argumentes of his Priestes superioritie Nowe secondly to the reasons he sheweth why he thinkes vs deceyued But thus in this case deceiueth many that they see the king is a Christian and gouerneth Christians For they knowe not or at least will not know what difference it is whether a man goueren a Christian bycause hee is a man or bycause hee is a Christian. The king indeed gouerneth Christian men but not bycause they are Christians but bycause they are men And bycause the Byshoppes also themselues are men the kings also in part are aboue Byshops The which hereby goeth cleare away if wee consâ—…ider Christian kings not onely to gouerne Christian men but euen alike oftentimes Iewes now and then Moores and Tartars for this onely that they are kings But Byshops gouerne Christians so as they can gouerne no other as they are Byshoppes Sith therefore the gouernement of the king pertaineth to all men alike but Byshops principalitie is reached to onely Christians and sith the state of our Christianitie excelleth the humaine nature that is in vs with what sence is he endued that preâ—…erreth the gouernoure of our bodily and fleshely nature before the prieste that watcheth for our soules and that either loseth our sinnes if wee make worthie fruites of repentance or bindeth them if we beare about an impenitent heart For the Ministers binding and loosing is an other question Let vs nowe kepe vs to this of the Princes supreme gouernment We are deceyued you say for lacke of considering this difference that the king gouerneth Christians not as Christians but as men and we thinke you arâ—… deceyued your selfe M. Saunders and would 〈◊〉 others for not considering this difference in the king him selfe in whoÌ„ we ought to consider not onely that he is a king but also a Christian king In that he is a king he geuerneth aâ—… his subjects as ye say a like so farre as the likenesse or 〈◊〉 of their sâ—…ates will permit whether they be Christian Iewes Turkes Mores â—…aitars Ethniks or whatsoeuer religioÌ„ they be of not in respecte of their religions nor in the they are 〈◊〉 neither but in respect they are his 〈◊〉 For ther are other men also that are none of his subjectes â—…ra euery man in that he is a man is no subiect to another man but frée Neither in that he is a christian to speake preperly of the abstracte he is vnder any other than Christe in whom there is no difference of countrey state degrée or person as your selfe afterwarde coÌ„fesse in the 4. chapter How â–ª beit as the king himselfe is of the Christianâ—… religion and a Christian king of a christian kingdome as al kings kingdomes ought to be although they be not so hath he an other charge and gouernement of his christian subiectes farre aboue that they be naturall men or this or that cruÌ„trey meÌ„ euen that they be christians committed to his gouernment And therefore this charge was giuen the king of Gods people in his institution Dâ—…ute 17. That he should haue Gods worde alwayes with him and make religion the chiefe end of his gouernement And this your selfe haue graunted alreadie pag. 80 excepte ye will contrary your selfe as ye often doe But this case is too apparant that a christian Prince regardeth further than the body or than the naturall or polytike man For being a christian Prince he regardeth them as christian subiectes and not alike to such subiectes as are Heathen Turkes and Tartars which is a shameful sclander For as the christian Prince hath a speciall regarde to his christian subiectes before his Infidell subiects so they being subiects of vnlike condition he gouerns them nothing a like The one being out of the houshold of fayth although in the housholde of his kingdome The other being of bothe the housholdes and therefore the faythfull Prince hath fuller authoritie ouer them as wel for the religion of their soules as for their goodes and bodies But saye you the Byshoppe bath respecte only to the soule I say still would to God your Byshops had so But doth this hinder the Princes superioriue that hath respect to soule and bodie too The argumentes of Constantine Theodosius and Constantius are somewhat touched alreadie and I reserue the further handling of theÌ„ to the practise and treatise of the stories The 3. part of this chapter is a dissuasioÌ„ from the Princes supreme gouernment by the successe thereof Wherin first he begins with the most famous Prince King Henrie the. 8 the Queenes Matesties father the noblest and moste fortunate king that euer bare crowne in England now when his soule is crouned in the kingdome of heauen with eternal glorie his body with honor interred in his Sepulcher his immortal fame yet fresh liuing in the memorie mouthes of al nations sée these spitefull Papistes will leaue off with more than villanous reproches moste traiterously to rayle vpoÌ„ him Saying that he first called himself the Chief head of the Church of England Ireland immediately vnder Christ Besides that he was neuer the happier but much more vnhappie Upbrayding his wiues vnto him The couÌ„terfeting of the money and the pilling of his subiects â—… wicked Papistes past all shame and grace Howe truely dyd the Apostle Iude prophecie of you that 〈◊〉 â—…ulers and blaspheme â—…hem that 〈◊〉 authoritie Was King Henrie the
spiritual sacrifices we haue and therefore the other outvvarde of the Iewes are gone as those that were vnperfect and with the outwarde sacrifices is the outward priesthood gone also But still blundring on with your false principles you goe forward to proue that you haue taken the best left the worâ—… in the priesthoode and sacrifices of the Iewes saying For the high B. in the state of the Gospell is not borne after the propagation of the fleshe but is elected according to the giftes of spirituall grace And our sacrifices consist not in shedding of the bloud of beastes but in remeÌ„bring the bloud of the immaculate Lambe and in dayly setting forth after an vnbloudie manner the substance of the Lambe And so that which was spiritual perfecte in the lavv vve haue not lost â–ª but that vvhich was vnperfect and carnal we haue not kept You coine Maximies M. Sanders speake as one thâ—… might kéepe and leaue what he liste standing still on youâ—… former presupposall that to haue one visible Byshop ouerall Gods people is a pointe of perfection and to haue outwarde sacrifices is also a point of perfection But neither of these iâ—… yet proued which shâ—…uld haue firste bene done and then yâ—… might haue entred your comparison whether those or theâ—… were better You preferre your Pope bycause he hath 〈◊〉 high Byshoprike as you cal it not by byrth but by election according to the giftes of spirituall grace but as the election of the Pope verie often hath falne out with so small giftes of spiritual grace that al y grace was either in the gifts of brybiâ—… money of canuased factions or of geuing cufâ—…es and dealing of harde blowes for it so the obtayning the highe Byshoprike of the Iewes that descended by byrth was manyâ—… times farre the better As for sacrifices where you saye yours consist not in shedding the bloude of beastes whaâ—… auayleth it hauing imbrued your mouthes with the bloudâ—… of Christ for if as you pretende you drinke his very bloude â—…owe are you not bloudsuckers and your sacrifice worsse than was the Iewes Besides the cruell sacrifices that you dayly make in shedding the bloude of men and Saintes of God a farre worsse sacrifice than shedding the bloude of beastes For of that for the time God was the appointer but of this the Deuill is the authour that was an homicide from the beginning But you say your sacrifice of Chryste is not bloudie If it be of bloude howe is it not bloudie if it be not bloudie â—…owe is it of bloude It is say you in a remembrance of the â—…mmaculate Lambe Woulde you stande to this Maister Saunders then indéede it were not bloudie for the rememâ—…rance of bloud is not bloud it selfe But straight ways you â—…onfute your selfe and come in with setting forthe the substance of the Lambe Whereas Chryste sayde not his Disâ—…iples shoulde sette forthe his substance but they shoulde â—…et forth his death But the death of Chryste is one thing â—…nd the substance of Christe another thing Neither dothe Christe make the Sacrament of his bodie a sacrifice of his â—…odie muche lesse maketh he two sacrifices of himselfe the â—…ne done once for all the other dayly done the one for himselfe to exhibite the other for them to exhibite the â—…ne bloudie the other vnbloudie These are the sacrifices of â—…our Popes making prophaning derogaâ—…ing from the saâ—…ifice of Iesus Christe and therfore worsse than the Iewes â—…crifices that were the figure of it and for the time were â—…ood Now such as is your sacrifice suche muste needes your â—…crificing priesthoode be You haue not therefore as you â—…ake for your sacrifice and Priesthoode retained the betâ—…r but haue deuised the worsse and suche as are starke â—…aught As for the other part of the minor for the estate of Princes 〈◊〉 â—…aue bene imperfecte and therfore abolished you labour 〈◊〉 proue two wayes The one admitting the Prince 〈◊〉 haue bene greater than the Prieste in procuring ecclesiasticall matters what a great imperfection for diuerâ—… causes it had bene the other by flat denyall that the Princes were the greater in administring those thinges that pertained to ecâ—…l matters These are subtill spéeches M. Saunders and maye be doubtfully vnderstoode As thoughe we ment the Prince were a more principall executer or doer of those thinges Whereas we plainely affirme that in the Ministeriall procuration the Priest was the highest But in respect of ouerseeing that euen the highest Priest shoulde doe his duetie therein we say the Prince was greater than he And that is proued by the first obiection that your self M. Saunders propounde of the Protesâ—…ntes neyther doe you denie the truth of the obiection but shake it of in saying the gouernement now is changed that it was then vnperfect Else why do you accuse it of imperfection if it were then as you wold haue it nowe the Prieste to be greater than the Prince and so in chalenging it of imperfection you grauÌ„t the thing Neyther do we deny that the state of those Princes was not in all things perfect Althoughe your selfe haue graunted the state of a Monarchie to be a perfect state but yet the state thereof was in his kinde more perfecte than was the Priesthoode both bycause it was ouer the Priesthoode as is obiected and you haue graunted and bycause that the Princes estate althoughe it be taken from Iewes yet it remayneth still entier with vs whiche the Priesthoode doth not nor can do But let vs sée your Reasons First esay you bycause Priesthoode was more auncient than the kingly right For the receiuing of Priests was partly receiued from the beginning vnder the lawe naturall yea before the floude when as yet there were no kings partely it had the superioritie certaine ages after Moses according to the lawe giuen by him when as yet among Gods people no king was extant but howe much more auncient a thing is in religion it is worthily counted so much more the worthier This argumente standeth on Antiquitie whiche beyng drawne from the word of God and truely applied maketh a good argumeÌ„t And would to God you would alwayes make gods word the ground of your Antiquitie which would sone decipher manie Popishe errors pretending great Antiquitie to be but late vpstarts But to reason from Antiquitie in things that are antiquate and outgrowne to retaine them still being lawfully displaced and that more is to reason from Antiquitie to worthinesse maye be an anciente but not ouerworthie reason For by this râ—…le an olde caste coate may be better than a new And although you restraine your selfe vnto antiquitie in ReligioÌ„ what helpeth this sith the bloodie sacrifice of a shéepe as pleading Antiquitie from Abel might by this reason become a more worthie worship of God than Baptisme or the Lords Supper Yea circumcision and the Passouer should haue bene better Sacramentes than ours bicause they wore
earthly in this respect as M. Saunders him selfe confesseth neither bathe he the gouernement of the Churche which is dispersed in many kingdomes but is a gouernour of a parte therof or of some particular Churche Nowe when M. Saunders hath thus proued as he thinketh the imperfection of the olde lawe saying And thuâ—… should these thinges be if in the olde time the kinges of the Iewes had exercised any chiefe power in ecclesiasticall matters and ouer the Bishops He turneth him selfe on the other side to the flat deniall of this which in the answere to our first obiection he flatly graunted and fled then to thyâ—… shifte that the case was altered But nowe sayth he neither is it true that the Kinges of the Iewes were counted greater than the Priestes of the Leuiticall kinde in administring those thinges that pertayned to ecclesiasticall matters whiche by peece meale I will not be greeâ—…ed to shewe It will not greeue you to tell a lye M. Saunders but to tell the truthe it woulde be a greefe vnto you Where dyd we say that the Kings of the Iewes were counted greater than the Priests in administring those thinges that pertayned to ecclesiasticall matters But go too let vs sée what peecemeale proues you bring And firste saye you Moyses commaunded that after the King was sette in the seate of hys kingdome hee shoulde wryte oute for him selfe in a volume another copâ—…e of this lawe â–ª taking the copie of the Priestes of the â—…euiticall Tribe But if not onely other but the king also him selfe muste go to the Priests for writing out of the lawe how was the king the prince in interpreting the lawe the copie whereof he was compelled to craue of other was he not herein admonished that he should remember that the priests were his superiours in those things that pertayned to the law for as euery Magistrate crauing the sworde of the king receiuing it doth in so doing declare the king in the right of the sword to be greater than him selfe after the same sorte is it when the king receyueth of the Pristes the copie of the diuine law Is this the copie of your piece meale proues M. Sand he that should take a copie of your argumentes might per haps haue néede but God wot shoulde finde full slender stuffe in them This argument is copied out of Stapleton and your other collectors and is already answered Which if it were good bycause the Prince taketh the copie of the lawe from the Priest therefore in the gouernment of matters pertayning to the lawe the Priest is aboue the Prince then is the Register aboue the Chauncelor the Bishop then is the Clarke aboue the Stewarde and the Prince bicause he hath the kéeping of the recordes And this is a more like example than that you bring in of a Magistrate crauing and receyuing the sworde of the king for in this example the King hath not onely the kéeping of the sworde but al the authoritie of and lawfull exercise of the sworde vnder God dependeth on him and suche as he will giue it vnto Wherfore he acknowleageth rightly the King to be his greater But in the lawe of God where the kinges gouernement is appoynted to him and by that appoyntment of God he hath interest in matters of the lawe of God by his kingly office and therefore must haue the lawe of God about him to directe his giuerment and hath not this interest authorie giuen him of the Priest as the subiect hathe the authoritie and exercise of the sworde giuen him of the king doth this argue a like that the Priest is superiour bicause he muste haue the kéeping of the lawe and the king that he may be sure he hath a true copie of Gods lawe muste haue it of the Priest Dothe the keeping argue the greater authoritie â–ª The king must haue the crowne of the kéeper of the crowne and the seale of the keeper of the seale is the keeper therefore the greater Nay it rather argueth althoughe in looking too that those thinges be well kepte and truely declared they haue a more especiall charge in their offices yet are they rather inferiours in that they haue for the kings behoofe the kéeping and deliuery of them And so the priest hathe an especiall charge of keeping and deliuering to the Prince the lawe of God bicause of his especiall vocation in the studie profession and administration of it Whiche argueth more cunning and learning of duetie to be looked for at his handes than at the Princes And therefore we ascribe not as you saye greater principalitie to Princes in the interpreting of the lawe of God. Princes commit that to the interpreters But to the Prince is committed a superiour charge of gouerning all persons to ouersee that the lawe of God be rightly interpreted and administred And for this cause the Prince oughte to haue the copie of the lawe not him selfe to interprete it and whereto then to lye idly by him no to gouerne him selfe and all his subiectes by the prescription of it After this he alleageth the examples of Moyses Samuell Iosue Dauid Salomon Constantius and Theodosius In Moyses and Samuell he hathe nothing that is not common To Iosue Dauid and Salomon he vseth Stapletons answeres and there is answered The examples of Constantius and Theodosius are somewhat already answered and shall be further God willing when we come to the practise And likewise to the Councels that he citeth The argument of the fourth Chapter That Christian Princes may be deposed from their estates by the Bishops and their kingdomes giuen to other when their gouernment hurteth the truth of the faith and the soules health whereto they are ordayned IN this 4 Chapter M. SauÌ„ders kepeth no perfect method and therfore we must follow him as he procéedeth First he maketh two kinds of men the earthly man and the heauenly man and so likewise two kingdoms the one earthly the other heauenly The earthly kingdome choseth their king by humaine consent as Nimrod c. Of the heauenly kingdom that Christ hath in the earth Christ is the king Who although by the worthinesse of his nature he be king of all men yet is he called onely the king of the faithfull Who comming into the world as he hath not taken away the former nature of maÌ„ but renued it so hath he not destroyed the earthly kingdome but amended it Here vpon he concludeth that earthly kings may be made Citizens of gods Church and vse all their olde right and most free gouernement in all those causes that diâ—…ishe not the faith and Religion of christ They may make whome they will fit Ciuil magistrates They maye appoint at their pleasure lawfull punishments for malefactors and freely do al other thing that by the law Naturall Nationall Ciuil or Mâ—…nicipall shall be allowed To all this as we agree with M. Saunders and therfore I gather bâ—…t a briefe coÌ„tâ—…ct
lawe of Christ is and what it commaundeth can no where better be knowne than oute of their mouth to whom the sauiour said Go teache you all nations and he that hereth you hereth me he that dispiseth you dispiseth me For there neuer want in the Churche those that eâ—…oy the legacie for Christ God exhorting as it were by them For euen as other men so well as earthly kings are reconciled to Christ by his ministers and by Christ to God so they ought not onely to be vnder God as they were before but also to Christ yea and now to his ministers too for in vaine doth doth he subiect himselfe to Christ that refuseth to obey Christs ministers This is true M. Saunders in the true ministers of Christ that the Prince ought to obey them in their ministerie euen as dispensers of the mysteries of Christ and as representers of Christ also And true it is they can or oughte best to tell what is the lawe of God. But yet are they not so to be heard or obeyed as they do not represent Christ or tell their owne â—…awe for the law of Christ. Wherein the Christian Prince â—…ath an ouersight euer them and is againe the chiefe miniâ—…ter and representer of Christ And as he obeyed them in the â—…ne so muste they obey him in the other or else they teache â—…ot the law of Christ aright Moreouer saith M. Saunders it is not inough for a Chriâ—…tian king to do those things that priuate men are wont to do â—…xcept also he doe those things that properly belong to the â—…ffice and digâ—…e of a Prince Euery man ought to serue the â—…ord and walke worthily in that vocation wherin he is called â—…rte thou called in the state of Matrimonie serue God not onely as a man but also as an husband Art thou called in the state of a king thou must serue as thou art a king and not onely as thou art a man But the offices of kings are other and the offices of priuate meÌ„ are other VVhervpoÌ„ saith Augustin elegaÌ„tly The king serueth otherwise bicause he is a maÌ„ otherwise bicause he is a king Bicause he is a man he serueth him in liuing faithfully But bicause he is a king he serueth with making by conuenient force lawes commauÌ„ding iust things forbidding the contrarie Euen as Ezechias serued destroying the Temples of Idols the high places that were builded contrarie to the coÌ„maundementes of god Euen as Iosias serued he also doing the like things Euen as the king of the Niniuites serued compelling all the citie to appease the Lorde Euen as Darius serued giuing the Idol to the power of Daniel to breake it and casting his enemies to the Lions Euen as Nabuchodonozor serued in forbidding by a terrible lawe all men placed in his kingdome from blaspheming god In this therfore kings do serue the Lord in so much as they be kings whe they do those things to serue him which none can do but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this we grauÌ„t you M. Saunders kings haue another more excellent peculiar seruice of God in that they be kings than haue other priuate men But as this maketh nothing against our assertioÌ„ or the kings estate but more commendeth it so it both ouerturneth your principall questioÌ„ for the kings authoritie in ecâ—…l matters coÌ„futeth that you haue said before in defacing the kings estate also cleane beateth you froÌ„ that which you driue your present drift vnto of deposing kings First you said before that kings in that they are kings gouerne all meÌ„ alike so well Iewes Mores Tartars as Christians haue as equall gouernment ouer the one as the other Here you confesse that kings in that they are kings haue 〈◊〉 especiall seruice of God and you specifie this their seruice 〈◊〉 such examples as declare a farre more excellent seruice 〈◊〉 is the gouernment of Turkes of Mores and Tartars Secondly this especiall seruice consisting in such thinges as these examples containe it argueth the Princes seruice not onely to intermeddle in eccl. matters but to haue the supreme gouernmeÌ„t of them and to haue authoritie to reforme eccl. abuses and to make Lawes to prohibite things contrarie to the Lawe of God and to commaunde thinges commaunded in Gods lawe whiche before you ascribed to Byshops and toke from kings Thirdly if none can do these things but kings howe dare you take them from kings and kings from them how dare you giue them to Priestes howe dare you giue Priestes authoritie to depose kings when rather hereby kings haue authoritie to depose priestes and none can do these thinges but kings by this your sentence cited out of Augustine These things say you thus ordered it shal novv be made plaine vvith hovve great equitie vve defende that Christian kings vvhiche gouerne Christian people ought to be vnder the ministers of Christ at the least in those things that appertain to faith and religion Yea vnder the paine of losing their kingdome if fyrst vve shall propounde this one thing Hytherto then by your plaine confession this is not plaine for it but rather plaine againste it that kings muste loose their kingdomes if they be not vnder the Priestes in thinges pertaining to faithe and religion that is to saye to make it â—…plaine excepte they beléeue and do as you will haue them you will plainely turne them out of their kingdomes Indaede this is a plaine waye if you can doe it as you haue attempted it But it is an vnnaturall and a traytorous waye and of all other farthest from such ways as those should vse that professe themselues to be Christes Uiâ—…ars and Gods Ministers Christe neuer vsed it nor Peter nor Paule nor any of the Apostles and yet were they vnder Princes that were not vnder them in things that pertaine to faith and religion But you will proue this with great equitie if first you shall propounde one thing Goe to propounde it M. Saunders and let vs sée the greatnesse of your equitie First say you both the lavve Diuine and naturall equitie teacheth manifestly that no other king ought of Christians of their ovvne accorde to be called to administer the right of a kingdome than he vvhich is himself a Christian. â—…or this is that vvhich the Lord saide by Moses to the Israelites VVhen thou shalt saye I vvill place a king ouer me as haue all other nations round about thou shalt ordeine him vvhom the lord thy God shall choose among the number of thy brethren neither mayste thou make a King of an other nation that is not thy brother But by brother vve vnderstande him that iâ—… a faithfull one and a Christian. And although Christians in times past vvere compelled to obey Ethnike Emperours yet vvoulde they neuer haue committed this to haue voluntarily called any such men to the administration of the Empire For vvho could suffer it that the members of
base things of the worlde thatis by the pouertie of the Apostles and the tormentes of the Martyrs he ouercame the mightie things the same God within a while after did so ioin togither his heauenly kingdome with the earthly kingdome that there also he might shewe no lesse both power and mercie while some kings voluntarily made themselues subiect to the pore Ministers of Christ But other refusing at the first to be made subiects vnto theÌ„ yet by the spirituall power of theÌ„ were either afterwarde conuerted to repentance or else vvere hurled downe from the high degree of the Empire they possessed that euery waye it should be true that God reuealed to Daniel In the dayes of those kingdomes the God of heauen shall rayse vp a kingdome which shall neuer be destroyed his kingdome shall not be giuen to an other people but it shall frush and consume al kingdomes and it shall stande for euer This truely is the kingdome of heauen or the power of the Church of God. It is euen so M. Sand â–ª and therefore not suche a worldly kingdome as your Pope vsurpeth you proule for him to mainteine but the heauenly kingdome of Christe and the power of God which is his Gospell shall frush and consume your kingdome with the other Nay say you they did indéed once iarre but now they agrée the heauenly and the earthly kingdome are conioyned togither Agréement is a good hearing M. Sand â–ª but what meane you by this coniunctioÌ„â—… that the one is become the other and not still distinguished from it or that your Pope may be king and his Byshoppes Princes of bothe nay M. sand you finde not that agréement and coniunction For Christ hath put such a barre betwene them that his spiritual Ministers can not haue earthly kingdomes nor that earthly kings shoulde in the estate of their earthly kingdomes becoÌ„me subiecte in such wise to his spirituall Ministers otherwise than to yelde their obedience to their spirituall ministerie representing the power mercie of God vnto them But not to resigne their crownes vnto them not to be troden vnder their feete not to be deposed of them and driuen out of their earthly kingdomes The spirituall kingdome of Christ it selfe much lesse the spirituall ministers of that kingdome dealeth not with earthly kings in such a fashion which is not to agrée or ioyne wyth them but to conspice against them You tel vs of some kings that haue voluntarily yeelded theÌ„ selues subiectes some that were compelled and driuen out of their kingdomes but was this done as you saye by the pouertie of the Apostles and the tormentes of the Martyrs True it is that by these base things God ouercame the mightie things of the world But trow you that they by their pouertie deposed kings by their suffering tormeÌ„ts draue theÌ„ out of their realme that were a harde matter But name the Apostle name the martyr name the king name the kingdome you can No you can not â–ª But you shal finde the centrarie for if they were in pouertie then were they not rycher than kings if they suffered tormentes theÌ„ they put not meÌ„ to tormeÌ„ts they were tormeÌ„ted not tormeÌ„ters sufferers not doers of theÌ„ Neither suffered they as malefactors for coÌ„spiring against kings for going about to haue deposed kings froÌ„ their kingdomes Are you not ashamed your Popes being rycher thaÌ„ kings crueller than tirante to tel how God ouercame the mighte of the worlde and increased his spirituall kingdome this was Gods doing not mans and by cleane contrarie meanes to your doings and to cleane contrarie purposes not to storish in an earthly kingdome or to dispossesse kings as al your drifte doth tende But you haue examples hereof howe you broughte kings to this thraldome but for shame ye durst not name theÌ„ the stories were so tragical But now this being coÌ„trarie to Christes prohibition he propouÌ„neth an obiection himselfe in our behalfe answereth it Thou vvilt say do therefore By â–ª hoppes and Pastors of the shepe of Christ rule temporal kingdomes properly indeed and of it selfe in no vvise But thus do Byshops rule temporal kingdomes if so be such kingdomes do submit themselues to the Christian faith For euen in this that Christian kings and nations do desire the faith Sacraments of Christ they promise heerein that they vvill neither gouerne nor obey any earthly gouernment further than the Christian faith and religion may suffer If therefore either the gouernement of the king or the peoples obedience begin to svvarue othervvayes either they may be deposed from their gouernment or most iustly excluded from the povver of choosing a king by the force of the couert or expressed couenaÌ„t which at the beginning they made vvith the Church of Christe For vvhat soeuer is so much of the nature of the thing that is done that if by chaunce mention vvas made thereof at the beginning it can not othervvise agree than by that one vvaye vvhich although it were not expressed betvvene the bargain makers yet is it holden for expressed bicause it was necessarily contained in the nature of that that was done For ensample A man saith to a vvoman I take thee to my vvise she againe making answere I take thee to my husbande But that they shall liue togither euen till death although this expresly is not vttered in the couenant notwithstanding it is so contained in the nature of the thing that it is necessarily vnder stood After the same maner it is when either the king or any priuat man is made a member of the church by faith baptisme For euen in that that he renounceth the worlde the pomps thereof verily he promiseth that he will neuer abuse the power of his earthly kingdome againste the faithe and church of christ And if so be he shall do it he wil not refuse but that he may be depriued of the right of his kingdome For I aske if this namely should come in question Softe M. Sand â–ª we must interrupt you or els we caÌ„not so coÌ„ueniently answere you To your question anon now to your argument and your 〈◊〉 thereâ—…n The obrection you made was this whether Bishops and Pastors of the sheepe of Christ may rule temporall kingdomes You answere properly and of it selfe in no wise But as those kingdomes do subiect them selues to the Christian sayth This is a proper elusion M. Saunders thinke you to escape thus is it all one to subiecte their kingdomes toâ—…e Christian fayth and to subiect their kingdomes to the Bishops Good 〈◊〉 it is that the fayth should beare the â—…héefe rule But the obiection was whether the Bishops should or no and therfore this â—…inction serueth not For Christ simply without this or y respect debarâ—…eth al his spi ritual ministers froÌ„ ruling of teÌ„poral kingdomes Who knoweth not that properly and of their owne nature temporall kingdomes should not be ruled of spirituall pastors but
of teÌ„poral kingâ—… None is so simple to moue such a fond obiectioÌ„ But the obiection is whether the one be coincident to the other Whether a Bishop to whoÌ„ properly by his Bishoply office 〈◊〉 kingdome belongeth not may take vpon him the gouernment of a kingdome that properly by his kingly office beloÌ„geth to a king This iâ—… the question And you say properly he can not I say muche 〈◊〉 vnproperly But properly or vnproperly Christ hath cleaâ—… debarred it Vos autem non 〈◊〉 But you shall not do so These words strike dead master Sand â–ª therfore your vnproper distinctioÌ„ may go pike him But say you when they subiected them to the Christian fayth the kings promised no longer to raygne the people promised to obey no power further than the christian fayth wil suffer therefore if the kings power or the peoples obedience swarue from this promise â–ª the king may be deposed and the people can choose no otherâ—… â—…ll good promises so 〈◊〉 as we may are to be kept inâ—…iolate master Saunders especially the promise made to Christ to kéepe his fayth and religion incorrupted And would to God all men did kéepe it chiefly the Popishe Byshops that haue in so many poyntes swarued from the fayth and corrupted Christes religion yet haue made their promise to keepe it so well as others And if they shoulde be deposed for breaking their promise your Pope should be deposed first to begin withal and all his Prelates Priestes should followe And althoughe it were to be wyshed they were in déede all deposed and those onely that repent them admitted and reformed to the true ministerie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet can not the like be wished for in Princes that they likewise breaking their promises shoulde be deposed by their Bishops For althoughe we haue in Gods worde an euident example for the Prince to depose the Bishoppe vpon his demerites as Salomon deposed Abiathar yet haue we not the like example for the Bishop to depose the Prince For in the authoritie of deposing the Prince is higher than the Bishop Although it is not to be wished the Princes should attempt without great and euident proofe to depose any As for the Bishop to take vpon him to depose his Prince béeing his sworne subiecte is bothe agaynst his owne fayth and homageâ—… and further than his authoritie reacheth The Bishops and Priests had great iniurie offred them of king Saule yet they neuer cursed him nor attempted to depose him No Dauid although he were him selfe also the Lords anoynted would neuer oppugne Saule or rebel agaynst him but only stode at his defence and when he had Saule in his daunger he would neither kill him nor take him nor depose him but let him go and committed his quarell to the Lorde bicause Saule was not onely likewise the Lordes annoynted but then in lawfull possession of the crowne And therefoâ—…e Dauid woulde neuer take it from him althoughe he had good title to it Muche lesse may the Bishops that haue no title to it attempte to pull downe their Prince They may yea they oughte to exhorte their Prince hauing broken his promise and rebukâ—… him and lay before him the terrible threates of God they may pray for him â–ª but they can not lay handes vpon him nor curse him nor reuile him nor take armes agaynst him nor inâ—…ite other to rebellion to forsake him and to set vpon him beeing their Liege and Soueraigne I am not ignoraunt that Princes haue bene deposed of their subiects in diuers couÌ„treys and diuers times in Englande And the like casualtie may chaunce in euery age and kingdome vnto princes But for those things by what title they were done God knoweth I will not descant nowe but this I affirme in generall that in respect of the people those things were more defâ—…cto than de â—…ure â–ª although in respecte of Gods iustice or of the Princes chastisement that â—…ad deserued before God so muche and more it was de â—…ure too But the subiects can neuer iustifie such deedes to be done howe euer they be borne out when they be done nor such extraordinary deedes past may be drawne to ordinarie examples of deedes to come but be spectacles for princes in beholding suche tragedies past to learne for the present to â—…umble them selues and to leuell their life to come the better And althâ—…gh many of these deposings of princes haue â—…ot come so 〈◊〉 by the vâ—…ce of their vnnatural subiects as by the practises of the Popish bishops as the ensamples of king Iohn in Englande of Childerike in Fraunce the Henries and other in Germanie and in other countreys do testifie yet were these dealings of thâ—…se Bishops not allowable but detestable yeâ—… though it were graunted that those princeâ—… haâ—… deserued them brokeÌ„ their faith and promise â–ª Which if it were a good faith promise was no doubt an euill breacâ—…e of it anâ—… God will take the vengeance of it it belongeth not is the people nor to the Bishops Vengeance is mine sayth God and I will render it He sayth not my Bishops shall but I will render it Yea but saytâ—… M. 〈◊〉 the Prince himselfe hathe made a promise to raigne no longer than the fayth and religion of Christ alloweth I aunswere if he maâ—… this prâ—…yse it is a good promyse and he is bouâ—… in conscience to stand therâ—… But what if â—…e wickedly breake his promise shall the Bishope rebell â–ª and breake their promise too is there no remedie but 〈◊〉 pellere to driue out one mischiefe with another â–ª Nay saith S. Paule â–ª Non faciamus malum vt inde eueniatbâ—…nuÌ„ Let vs not do euill that good may come of iâ—… â–ª Let vs notâ—…bell against the Prince that the Prince may be reformed Quorum damnatio iusta est If the Bishops do so they heape Iâ—…st damnation vpoÌ„ themselues Were the Prince in déede such a one as the Bishops pretend if it be not rather their malicious pretence as God hath giuen them no such violent meanes to reforme him which were to make him rather worse than better and to bring all in a broyle and themselues besides their sin in daunger â–ª so God hath giuen theÌ„ another meane if they could see it of preaching his word vnto the Prince which is another maner of sword and more fitte for them to fight withall than to pull the temporall sworde oute of the Princes hands In dede so did Cardinall Columne when the Pope said he woulde pull of his Cardinals hatte he soul the Pope word if he pulled off his Cardinals hatto he would put on a helmet and pull downe his triple Crowne These Prelates haue little skill of the spirituall swâ—…rde although they crake of it and of S. Petâ—…rs keyes but they neither know how to vse them nor what they be that thinke they consist in deposing Princes and fighting against them But M.
they may be â—…conciled and continue together â—…ut you 〈◊〉 in this case of swaruing from the 〈◊〉 the subiect and the Prince may not continue together â–ª 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the man and the womaÌ„ are by their contract in mariage knit inseparably togither especially as the Papists maâ—…e the contract that it is neuer vndone for any vice no not for whordome although they graunt there may be in nâ—…ne but 〈◊〉 déede a separation so the Prince and the â—…ubiect being contracted togither in the polycie of a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the one 〈◊〉 faithfull gouernement the 〈◊〉 promising faithfull obedience notwithstanding all their vices that fall out afterwards betwene them may not be â—…ieane parted a sunder the Prince from his authoritio the suâ—…iect from his obediencâ—… but till their liues endes most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 together â–ª and as the priest â—…an not 〈◊〉 but by your owne 〈◊〉 makes 〈◊〉 againste you But now â—…ay â—…n and moue your question M. Saunders I aske say you if this by name should come in questioÌ„ whether this shoulde not necessarily be aunswered to that King which would become a Christian Let it be that King Lucius come to Blessed Eleutherius the Pope yea or else king Clodoueus to Blessed Remigius and desire them selues to be admitted into the societie of the Christian people But let vs suppose that the Blessed Eleutherius or Remigius answere to eyther of them we are glad most deere Sonne that thou desirest to be made a Citizen of the kingdome of heauen but this thou oughtest to knowe for certaintie that the case is not â—…ke in the kingdome of heauen as it is in the worlde For in the Church thou must liue so that thou make captiue thy vnderstanding to the obedience of â—…aith But thou how greater thou arte in the world maist so much the more hurt the Churche of God â—…f thou shalt abuse the right of thy sworde to the defence of heretikes contrarie to the Catholike faithe No otherwise therfore maist thou haue entrie into the Church than if thou shalte promise that thou wilt persist in that saâ—…h and defende that Church with all thy force which being receiued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this daye and dispersed throughe oute all the world But if it shall chance thou doest otherwise thou shalt not refuse but shalt go from the right of thy kingdome and promise to lead a priuate life here if the King Lucius make answere I am ready to acknowledge the ChristiaÌ„ faith but I neither promise that I will defend with my sword the Catholike faith neither will I for whatsoeuer I shall do giue ouer the righte of my kingdome Can the Bishop to this man thus affected minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and deliuer the sacrament of thanksgiuing can he therfore be a member of Christ that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him Your example and your question hang not together M. Saunders to your last question I answere that he can not be a member of Christe that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him But what is this question to your former question of submitting himselfe to the Byshop to depose him there is greater difference betwixte Christs Scepter and the Bishops Crosier than betwéene the Kings Crowne and the Bishops Miter But to come to your examples which drawe somewhat nerer to your purpose First trow you that these two examples of King Lucius and Clodoueâ—… will answere al thâ—…se and serue for all Kings I suppose they will not â–ª For these kings receiued Baptisme being of lawfull yeares and â—…ight haue made a voluntarie graunt to all that you prâ—…suppose your Bishops would haue demauÌ„â—…ed of theÌ„ so might haue snarled themselues in their briers and bondage But yeutaÌ„ not presuppose the like of infants especially of those infantes whose parents were Christâ—… Princes before who are baptized long before they are kings And althoughe they might order y child as ill as they ordered y other that â—…o rawly came to ChristeÌ„dome yet would not the parentes being alreadâ—…e Christened bring their Children in such bondage Neither could they demand it of a childe which was not a king nor perchaunce borne to a kingdome but gat it afterwarde by prowesse Secondly these be but vaine presupposals false For although Clodouenâ—… was Baptized by Remigius yet was not Lucius baptized by Eleutherius but either by the two preachers which Eleutherius sent or as it rather appéereth by the content of Eleutherius letters King Lucius was himselfe a Christian before therfore Eleutherius sent them not as Legates nor sent any such conditions by them nor any lawes or ceremonies of the Church of Rome but referreth y King to the word of God and was so farre from taking vpon him to be gods Uiâ—…ar ouer the King his kingdome that in plain words be yeldeth that authoritie title to King Lucius And as for Clodoueus though he call Remigius his patrone author of the discipline and ReligioÌ„ bicause he baptized him in structed him therin yet as for any such couenant or condition not to admit him to the faith of Christ except he woulde sweare before hand that if he would not defend the Bishops their faith he shoulde forsake his kingdome and promise to leade a priuate life Remigius conditioned no such thing no more than Elentherins before had done to Lucius For when Clodoneus being an infidel and yet hauing a Christian wise which made him somâ—…hat more enclinable being in battaile against the Almaines making his vowe to Christ in his distresse to receiue the ChristiaÌ„ faith if he should get the victorie which being obtained and he returned home with triumph willing to receiue the faith of Christ his wise made hast to Remigius the Bishop of Remes Lxhorting him saith â—…onius forthwith to come to the Court that while he wauered yet in suspence he would open to him the way of truth that leadeth to God for she said she feared least his minde puffed vp with prosperitie while he knoweth not the giuer of these things he should contemne him For things that fall oute as we would haue them fall out of our minde likewise in continuance of ryme more easilie than those things that fall out otherwise than we would The Bishop hasteneth to obey the admonishing of the Religious woman He presenteth himself to the sight of the King that nowe a prettie while had aboade his coÌ„ming The faith is declared by the Bishop the meanes of beleuing is taught The King also acknowledging the faith deuoutly promiseth that he wâ—…l serue one god As for the peeres of his Realme armie he will proue his opinion which what it is of this matter he affirmeth that so muche more denoutly they wold submit their neckes to Christ how much more they should see theÌ„selues to be prouoked with
vnderstande this present exhortation to haue the libertie or power to forsake the heathen Magistrates obedience and iudgements and to erecte a nevv Magistrate and Iudge to rule among them For this had bene the readie pathe to all Rebellion And to proue that this is the readiest way to Rebellion sée howe Master Saūders gathereth hereon that nevve Kings are to be made of the Churche rather than vve shoulde be compelled to pleade our causes before hereticall and scismaticall Kings So that if the Prieste shall say the King is an heretike or a scismatike not only the people must so account him but they muste account him no longer to be their King they muste not be compelled to appeare in his Courtes and Consistories they must pleade no cause at all before him or his Iustices but must forthwith choose a nevv King to be their gouernour Howe far this is differing from Saint Paules doctrine from this sentence from subiectes obedience and howe neare to set all the world in an vprore I dout not but if this Nota that M. sand sets it out withal be wel noted it wil not only bréede in the Readers mindes a note of suspicion of priuie conspiracies trayterous packing but openly shew a manifest proclamatiō of plain rebelliō Now to proue that the subiects should thus rebel he sheweth the dangers that should ensue if they should remaine in their obedience For certaine it is that there is more danger of heretical Kings thā is of vnfaithful Iudges For vnfaithful Iudges do not iudge but of matters of this world and that according to the law either of nature which is alwayes right or ciuil vvhiche is seldome vvrong Moreouer vvhat if I suffered vvrong at the tribunall of a Pagane Iudge the losse is small to suffer the spoyle of tēporal goods vvhich good men beare vvith ioye But heretical Kings compel their subiects casting away the catholike faith to embrace their heresie the whiche can not be done vvithout the detriment of eternall saluation It is altogither lavvfull to the Churche of Christe to remoue from his gouernement an heretical a scismatical a symoniacal King and to conclude to remoue him that vvill not amende himselfe and to place another among the Christians in his rome This argument is drawne from the danger of suffering the king is alreadie answered diuers times The lawiers woulde briefly say to this better suffer a mischiefe than an inconuenience but were this an inconuenience too we may not take away one inconuenience with an other greater inconuenience for ther are conuenient remedies of pacience constancie against these inconueniences and not rebellion althoughe the inconuenience were muche greater than M. Sād makes it And yet to aggrauate the same he makes cōparison of a King and a Iudge as though the Iudge represented not the king He compareth the daunger of the losse by the one and by the other as thoughe the heathen Iudges and Princes dealt not also in cases of Religion Who although they were deceiued herein yet they conuented people before them for Religion to driue them from the worship of God to the worship of their Idols and laboured by all persuasions and meanes they coulde to bring them to their Religiō And verie many they brought to their Idolatrie which was more thā the losse of temporal goods euē the detriment of eternal saluatiō Neither did they vse their iudgemēts always according to the lavv of nature or the ciuil neyther doth the one iudge alvvayes right considering the great corruption of nature chiefly in the heathen neyther did the other sildome wrong but often wrong among them neither medled the ciuill Lawe of the Pagans onely with matters of temporall goodes and of this vvorlde but also with matters of the worlde to come and therefore there was further daunger of the iudgementes of those heathen Princes and vnfaythefull Iudges than here Maister Saunders woulde séeme to acknowledge there was mitigating all that he can the daunger ensuing from them to aggrauate the greater daūgers from naughtie Christian Princes But he nede not run to these vntruthes to aggrauate his comparison For we denie not but that if the Prince were such a wicked Prince as he speaketh of it were in dede very daungerous to the faithfull subiects vnder him and so muche the more daungerous that he pretendeth to the faithfull to be a faithfull Prince and is not But what a daungerous doctrine is this that the people should therfore rebell and reuolt vnto another Might the Christiā people in the primitue Church for all the daūger of eternall life that they and all the faithfull were in when the heathen Princes would haue them worship Idols which is as ill as heresie when the heretical scismaticall Emperors being Arians Monothelites c. in the ancient time compelled their subiectes casting away the Catholike faith to embrace their heresies might they remoue thē from their gouernment and place another in his roome ouer the Christians and that that shoulde streight be heresie which the B ▪ of Rome should say were heresie he should be a scismatike that should not consent to him Yea he must be deposed for symonie too ▪ by symonie forsooth we must vnderstand that if the Prince do appoint and inuest a Bishop then streight he is a simoniake and must out of hande be depesed What a greater daūger is here not onely to Christiā Princes but to all the Church of Christ whose sauegarde is here pretended But if we reason of daūgers the greatest daūger of all is of the Pope himselfe his prelates the more daunger that Princes people be thus beguiled by them and yet the king may not meddle with them although his duetie neuer so much require he hath good warrant in the scripture 〈◊〉 remoue them so haue not they of him were they neuer 〈◊〉 good and were he a great deale worse than M. Saunders makes him But Maister Saunders will nowe proue that the Bishops haue warrant out of the scripture for them and once againe he alleageth the example of King Saul and Samuel For if the kingdome of Saul stoode not euen for this that he obserued not the precept of Samuel in wayting for him seuen dayes before he sacrificed Yea if the Lord cast off Saul that he shuld not be the king bicause he fulfilled not also another precept of the Lorde declared by the Ministerie of Samuel in killing Agag if for this disobedience of Saul while he yet raigned Samuel was bidden to anoynt Dauid to be the King of the Iewes and Samuel did it priuily in Bethleem Neither after the holy Ghost sent downe from heauen the spirituall power of the Church can now be lesse than in times past was in the Synagog we must now also confesse that that King which shall dispise to heare the Lord speaking by the mouth of the highest Bishop maye
al and only true and all that we replie is starke false Thirdly the Prince must not condemne vs but you our enemies and accusers must sit vppon vs and condemne vs Fourthly the Prince must as you bid him put vs to death and for more assuraunce to catche vs ye giue him this libertie that he may make any lawe to attache vs to emprison vs to heade hang or burne vs Prouided alway that this lawe be nothing else but for punishment and that of those that you appoint and will crie ouâ—… vpon for heretikes and to deale no further Here is all things made sure against the poore protestantes Who séeth not that euen as shéepe appointed to the slaughter they must néedes die if you but please to bid the prince to kill them they must néedes be heretikes if once you call them so And now that ye haue brought your matters to this passe let vs sée how ye cry out against vs. VVe say with S. Aug. say you that princes may punish wicked deprauers of religion And we further saye that you are those O maister St. that ye woulde stande to your word say as S. Aug â–ª did But it may be ye will say it with S. August but will ye also meane it with S. Augustine for there is litle trust to your saying without your meaning Ensample right now of your last graunt wherein you spared not to belie S. Aug. if ye meane with S. Aug. plainly that Princes may punish wicked deprauers of religion as did the Emperour in S. Augustines time there is then yet good hope of equitie that you shall not be your owne Iudges and our condemners to But the Prince shall appoint delegates vprightly betwéene vs both yea the matter maye come to be hearde and discussed before the prince himselfe and to bée iudged of him who are in the right who are in the wrong for thus did the Emperour in S. Augustines time and S. Augustine lyked well of it but of all things you cannot abide this and yet ye boast for fashion saâ—… that ye saye with S. August Princes may punishe wâ—… deprauers of religion But ye adde withall at the harde héeles thereof And we further saye that you are those Whereby ye signifie howe farre ye will allowe their punishing And that the prince and all must be ruled by your bare saying for ye alleage no reason or argument to preue it but onely auouch it saying And wee further saye that you are those As though your bare so saying were full proofe of the matter and reason good inough to cause the prince to punish vs. But if the Prince take that ye haue graunted hym to punishe the wicked deprauers of religion as Saint Augustine sayeth he ought and the Emperour then did then so fast as you shall saye that wee are those we will also not saye onelye but prooue that you are those And a righteous Prince will punishe as he séeth prooues and not as he heareth onely sayings Nowe therfore if ye will say with S. Augustine thus tell on your tale hardilye and we feare not your malice VVe say with Saint Augustine say you that Christian Princes maye make a decree ye à of death as did Nabuchodonozor against the blasphemers of God and carefully prouide that God and his Sacraments be not lightly contemned This is well sayde of you master Stapleton and euen the same with tongue and heart say we and haue proued it alreadie with many ensamples But you say it from the teeth outwarde howe chaunce else that ye sayde not thus much before Yea howe chaunce ye sayde that Saint Augustine ment no more but of their lawes for punishing Heretikes Here are lawes for blasphemers also And though euery Heretike be a blasphemer yet is not euery blasphemer an Heretike And ye knowe Nabuchodonozors lawe was not of Heretikes but of Heathen blasphemers And yet besides the lâ—… of their punishing howe chaunce ye forgot also this part of their authoritie carefully to prouide that God and icâ—… Sacraments be not lightly contemned Is all this carefull prouiding nothing else but punishing Heretykes yes master Stapleton it importeth muche more and euen as muche as we ascribe to Princes and as the Quéenes Maiestie taketh on hir And nowe that yee haue once againe graunted thus muche to Princes spare not a Gods name to charge vs with the worst ye can onelye stande you to your tackling as we wyll stande to ours VVe say say you you are as great blasphemers as euer the Church of Christ had How proue ye that M. Stap. say we why say you we say so and that is proufe good ynough for vs In déede it is proufe good ynough for you yea the best proufe that ye haue For bad ye any better I knowe ye woulde not spare to lay it in our dishe But remember master Stapleton that yee haue giuen the Prince that authoritie of punishing blasphemers that Saint Augustine gaue to the Emperour in his time That is to wete not to punish he wottes not what but by his authoritie eyther to appoynt Delegates or himselfe to sit and here the tryall and iudge who are the blasphemers and who are not So that nowe your saying we be will not serue yuo in stéed vnlesse ye proue your saying Else might we put it to a double post and say passe to you you are greater blasphemers yea the greatest blasphemers that euer the Churche of Christ had And to proue it not onely on you but euen of your head also your holy father the Pope whose blessed lippes can they blaspheme trow you I praye ye remember who sayde he woulde eate Porke despetto de dâ—…o euen in dispite of GOD. But let this blasphemous Porkeling go and say you on master Stapleton VVe say say you you be they that haue contemned Christes sacraments making of seuen two and vsing those two after such a sort that the olde prouerbe may the more is the pittie in a maner take place as good neuer a whitte as neuer the better Here is still nothing but we say to aunswere therefore we say with we say we say agayne that you are those Sophisters that by the arte of multiplication whereof ye spake in your Preface haue learned muche more comning than had the scholler of Oxeforde that woulde make thrée egges of two you will make seuen of two and comming out with your fiue egges as the Preuerbe also sayth euery one of them are rotten making of two Sacraments seuen But fiue of them are of your owne hatching Cocks egges without yolkes no sacraments at all And two of them the one baptisme fowly prophaned the other hurled quite away and an Idoll euen by your owne definition of an Idoll put in place This lay we to your charge proue vs lyers and ye can And to that ye say we contemne Christs Sacraments we briefly say againe ye say vntruth except ye can proue we