2.11 1 Tim. 1.2 Tit. 1.4 Phil 2.10 1 Ioh. 2.1.28 and 3.7 and 4.4 The Ministers and the Elders are not onely our Brethren but also our Fathers Ergo they must as well use paternall authority over us as brotherly charity towards us 4. So also combined Presbyteries or as it were Fathers of simple Presbyteries because of their greater power to judge 5. The like of this Government hath never been heard of in the world neither in State nor Common-wealth before and therefore seemeth it to us to be repugnant unto the Law of Nature for what else is the Law of Nature but the common consent of all men How absurd therefore is that Government so destitute of all authority have the sheep as great authoirty as the Sheepherd if so it is as good to be a sheep as a Sheepherd 6. If an Authoritative power cannot hold in the Church or among Churches because that we are all Brethren and Sisters no more can it hold in the State betwixt King and Subject the father and the son the master and the servant for we are all Brethren in Christ so this Foundation or Ground-work will destroy all sort of Politicall and Domesticall Authority Our Brethren would do well also to consider whether their Grounds or those of our Government will better consist with the Authority of the civill Magistrate for according to this reason a King in a State should have no power at all over his Brother 7. In the State there be divers Judicatories Superiour and Inferiour wherein the Superiour hath an authoritative power over the inferiour Ergo in the Church since there is the same reason for both viz. reparation of the offence taken at inferiour Judicatories But because ye will seem to be much addicted to the civill Magistrate as if your Ecclesiasticall Government were altogether subordinate unto his power and blame us as not giving him his due which ye note by a particular Parenthesis as if ye would have us to take particular notice of it Therefore before we end this Section we shall be very willing to do it In saying that the Presbyteriall Excommunication is no more effectuall then your Sentence of non-Communion without the Magistrates Power ye adde this Parenthesis To which we give as much and as we think more then the Principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld By whose counsell or for what end this Parenthesis is inserted and such a comparison made I know not If ye have no Politicall ayms I am assured ye comply very much with Policy If ye grant him so much ye would do well to declare how much and wherein and not to feed him with generalities and Platonicall Idees as abstract here from all matter as ye professed formerly your Church-Government was abstracted from all other Governments It is a Maxime in Philosophy and in Rhetorick both That Sermones generales non movent and praised be God that the King and Parliament are wise and will not feed upon so abstract forms As for us since ye keep your selves upon such generalities it is impossible to us to answer any thing in particular unlesse we guesse at your meaning In generall therefore we say 1. That amongst men well bred all comparisons are odious 2. That either ye give unto the civill Magistrate onely his due or something more if onely his due ye lay a very heavie aspersion upon all Presbyterians as if they were not good Subjects in denying him a part of his due If more who gave you the power to do so 3. Either ye grant him more in Civill or in Spirituall matters In Civill matters ye cannot for ye can grant him no more then he hath by the Laws of the Land whereunto we are all equally subject and therefore must grant him as much one as another If in Spirituall matters we grant him his externall power as we declared in the beginning And for intrinsecall Spirituall power 1. It is not in your power to grant him any at all neither can ye give him more Spirituall obedience then Scripture permitteth you or give him a part of the Spirituall power that ye have received of God for that were to lay upon another the burden that God hath laid upon you and so serve God by a Proctor 2. It is onely in God who is King in this Spirituall Kingdom Master in this House and a Father in this Family who can give power therein to any man we dare not be so bold If ye pretend to do it I say with the Comick Poet de te largitor puer be liberall upon your own purse 4 If ye will do so look how Authoritative is your power who take Authority over Gods Ordinance and dispose of it as if it were your own so do not the Presbyterians 5. The Civill Magistrate acknowledgeth himself to be a Politicall and no Ecclesiasticall person since he is neither Pastor nor Doctor nor Ruling Elder in Christs Church and therefore arrogateth no Spirituall Authority to himself 6. We desire to know of you Brethren what ye understand here by the Magistrate Whether the Supreme or Subaltern If the Supreme whether the King or Parliament and principally at this time If the Subaltern we ask of you Whether every Justice of Peace shall or can judge of all Ecclesiasticall matters And if he cannot whether he can be a competent Judge 7. What if the Civill Magistrate be a Papist what if some of the Kings Councell be Papists or Heterodox as some in the beginning of this Parliament were will ye grant that they judge in matters of Religion So the Turk the Antichrist and Pagans shall judge in matters of Religion amongst their Protestant Subjects If so our Protestants in France in Polonia and otherwhere are in a very fair way Its pity but such a Maxime should have been published in Queen Maries time and at Saint Bartholomews day in France at that Butchery or Massacre of Protestants 8. The Apostle 1 Cor. 6. findes fault with the Christians that did plead before Infidels in civill matters what then would he not have said if godly men would have pleaded before them and submitted matters of Religion unto their judgement 9. This power that ye grant to the Magistrate is either Internall or Externall in regard of the Church If Externall we grant it as well as ye If Internall then he must be an Ecclesiasticall Person And then 10. It should follow That a Soveraign Prince should as well be Soveraign in the Church as in the State and so Internall head of both which is derogatory to Christs Royaltie as our Doctors have sundry times cleerly demonstrated it against the Jesuites and other Papists 11. Women that are commanded to be silent in the Church should rule it and command men in it since they may be Soveraign Princes in it and over it and so Leglise tomberoit on quenvillo And if it be replyed wherefore may they not as well rule the Church as the
State as some Independenters and some Women here in London have maintained in presence of their Preacher uncontradicted by him or any of that Profession there I answer 1. Because the Church or Kingdom of Heaven is not a Kingdom of this Word 2. Because God forbideth the one in Scripture but not the other 12. Christs Kingdom viz. His Church which is not of this World should be subject to the Kings and Kingdoms of this World 13. Yea the Apostles should have been subject unto worldly Kings in Church Government and so they should not have been the first Officers in the Church but the King should have been above them which is no lesse then cleerly to contradict Saint Paul Ephâ—s 4. where he calleth them the first 14 So wo Idly Princes could not be judged by any Church-Officers for if they were supreme Judges inferiour Officers could not judge them 15. A King usurping or invading a Kingdom should usurpe Soveraigntie in the Church And 16. if he were a Tyrant and obtained it jure belli by the Sword he should make himself Head of the Church by the Sword which seemeth a very strange Conquest of Ecclesiasticall Authoritie 17. If a Prince should buy a Principalitie and the Soveraigntie thereof he should consequently buy the charge to be supreme Ruler or to be above the Church as ye call it so it should be a good Conquest by good Simony 18. So if a wicked Prince should invade a good Prince against Gods Will then he should be Head of Christs Church or supreme Judge over it against Christs Will and that by an ordinary way yea jure divino by Christs Ordinance if jure divino they be above the Church as ye say 19. If a Prince were perpetually mad his perpetuall madnesse should no more hinder him from being supreme Judge in the Church then Prince in the State 20. If a Prince were supreme Judge alone then should he alone judge yea without his Counsell as some Princes do arrogate unto themselves and there should be the same Disputes about the Princes supreme Authoritie in the Church that are about it in the State 21. God will have no man to be a Judge in his Church but after examination 1 Tim. 3. muchlesse a supreme Judge in it But Kings are not examined whether they have the capacitie to rule or not and if the Prince be a little childe how can he have the capacitie or abide an examination 22. If a King have any other or more intrinsecall Authoritie over the Church then all Protestant Churches in France Holland and Scotland grant him or then we have declared we pray you shew us what it is and wherein it consisteth Whether he hath it in qualitie of a King of a Christian or of a Christian King If he hath it in qualitie of a King or as a King then all Kings have it yea Nâ—ro and Julian the Apostate Nam quod alicui comunit quà tali communit omni And then I pray you whether ye will admit such a Prince to judge of the Controversies of your Religion If in qualitie of a Christian then all Christians have it for the same reason yea every Cobbler as well as any King or Prince since they be all Christians 3. If as a Christian Prince then all Princes should have it But so it is not For what if we had a Christian Prince who were a Lutheran an Anabaptist a Sociman or a Papist I cannot beleeve that ye would permit such Christian Princes to judge muchlesse to be supreme Judges in your Religion If ye say that ye understand an Orthodox Prince What if he had one or two errours would ye yet permit him to judge of Ecclesiasticall matters Then who should judge whether he were Orthodox or not Whether ye or we What if there were a hundred divers Sects in any Kingdom Then he could onely judge of that Sect which he should professe and of no other Or if he should judge of all he should condemn them all but his own If by the supreme Magistrate ye understand a Parliament then to judge every one of your differences when ever any man challengeth the Church of an unjust judgement or appealeth from it we must gather a Parliament Which if the King and Parliament finde expedient I have nothing to say against it yet every man may judge whether the dispatch of businesse can be so quick and cheap as in the Presbyterian way What if Parliament men be of different Religions shall they of one Religion judge of the other Religion I might bring more Arguments and prosecute them all more fully but this may suffice for Annotations Onely this I adde 1. That it is not equitable that ye five be beleeved upon your simple word in so great an Aspersion as ye lay upon so many Churches yea all the best Reformed Churches without any proof If heretofore they gave you the right hand of fellowship I doubt if after so criminall an accusation they will continue it to you any longer And here I cannot sufficiently admire you in pretending your Church Government to be so compleat and perfect and yet stand insomuch need of the Civill Magistrate 2. I pray the Reader to consider diligently § 20. Pag. 20 21. How by that Speech it appeareth 1. That that Church pretended to have offended did arrogate in disposing of her Minister a power altogether independent from all other both of the Civill Magistrate and of all other Churches Otherwayes that expression should have been impertinent viz. That it was the most to be abhorred Maxime that any Religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable to that of Christianitie that a single and particular societie of men professing the name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and societie within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving an account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrate above them or Neighbour Churches about them For if she pretended no such power and exemption to what purpose such an expression 2. That in this Ecclesiasticall Judgement that is intrinsecall to the Church they acknowledge the Civill Magistrate to be above them but all the Churches of the Christian World nothing but about them whereof much may be said Here ye symbolize with Erastus in many things 3. Ye may collect that such a most abhorred Maxime was not the Maxime of that Church alone but of some others also for it is not credible that she would have stood out alone in a Maxime so repugnant to the Tenets of all other Churches and after wards submitted her self unto their judgement 4. Ye may see by the event and successe of this businesse a correction of that Maxime wherewith they were tinctured before 5. How God in his most wise Providence has forced those good men out of meer necessitie to
in the World for since it is publiei juris published they will assubject your judgement unto theirs by way of Agitation or disputing of it amongst themselves as much as all the Divines of England yea whether ye will or not Again Since both Houses were pleased to make you Members of that Assembly was not that a sufficient Justification and Vindication of your Persons from all calumnies spread against you and already scattered without speaking a word for your selves § 24. Pag. 24. Truely it is to be supposed that the two Houses would never recommend men thither either ignorant or vicious but the learnedest and godliest of the Kingdom so this your Apology is unseasonable Onely this needs an Apology That being Members of the Assembly ye will not submit your selves unto the Assembly of Divines but take odde wayes proper to you five alone to publish particular Apologies and desire a particular Toleration which no other Members of the Assembly do But as for this transeat cum coeteris crroribus It sufficeth that ye see extraordinary testimonies of the Parliaments and Assemblies most tender affection towards you how they have tolerated much in you the like whereof hath not yet been tolerated in any Member either of Parliament or of the Assembly and all to the end to chase away all pannick fears from your mindes and pretended disadvantages which ye did forcsee § 26. § 26. Pag. 28. Howsoever ye commend much the Parliament and declare That ye grant more to the Civill Magistrate then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld Yet even here ye rap him over the Knuckles as if in making you Members of the Assembly he should have been partiall in placing you there with so many disadvantages yea as ye say And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages which we could not but foresee both in number abilities of learning Authoritie the stream of publike interest Trusting God both with our selves and his own Truth Answ I maintain that the Parliament has done you no wrong for ye were not forced to sit there If there be so great disadvantages ye might have chosen whether you would have sit there at all or not All rationall men think it a great favour which ye esteem so great a disadvantage And as for the Number 1. Think ye that the Parliament ought to have put in such a Number of you that agree not in your opinions amongst your selves as might have over-swayed all the Divines of the Kingdom to the end that ye might afterward have compelled us all to quit the Kingdom as your Friends of New-England have done to others 2. Were ye to be compared in number with the rest of the Divines in this Kingdom who are hundreds for one of you Justice consisteth not in an Arithmeticall but in a Geometricall propertion which here has been observed towards you and that with more equitie then Justice 3. Neither did the Parliament hinder you to call as many Divines of your Profession as pleased you to consult with apart 4. Neither need ye so great a number in the Assemblie for ye seem not for any thing we can see resolved to submit your selves or to acquiesse with any pluralitie of voices either of Parliament or Assemblie wherefore then desire ye so great a number As for Abilities in Learning 1. Ye might also have had with you if it had pleased you as many learned men as ye could finde 2. Neither beleeve I that any others of your Profession could prudently take such a businesse in hand without you Who ever knows you knows well ye want no abilities to dispute your opinion in any Assemblie in Europe Men of learning and of wisedome therefore think that you speak this rather out of modestie then otherwise What ye understand by Authoritie I know not it cannot be Ecclesiasticall since ye acknowledge none in the Church Then it must be politicall and namelie that of the King and Parliament since that no other at this present have power over you and then I could wish ye had spoken more considerately Publike interest Either this must be taken of publike interest in Religion and then it 1º or should be our sole aym and it is no disadvantage for you That both the Parliament and the Assemblie be led by this Interest Or in State and then ye wrong both the Parliament and the Assemblie as if they measured Religion by Worldlie Ends and Interests wherein in ye are not to be beleeved Neither will we retaliate unto you that you may have some further Interests yet that we know not of And consequentlie ye need not to fear for your Persons as if ye were in danger or had subject to fear persecution as in former time § 27. Pag. 28. Ye excuse your selves from false Doctrine whereof no man accuseth you § 28. Ye tell us that the Difference betwixt you and us is not so great the lesse it is the lesse should ye be suiters for a Toleration and if ye obtained it the greater should be your Schisme § 28. Pag. 30. Here also ye excuse your selves that ye have not made a Scholastique Relation of your Judgement whereunto we have already answered and in so doing your opinions remaining lesse known hardly can they be distinctlie refuted § 28. Pag. 39 30. Afterwards ye require two things of the Parliament That it will look upon you under no other Notion or Character then as those who do as little differ from the Reformed Churches and your Brethren yea far lesse then they do from what themselves were three yeers past or then the generalitie of this Kingdom from it self of late 2. Ye require an allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse Answ And we pray you do as they have done to the end the Parliament may look upon you as they do upon them 1. They never condemned all the Protestant Churches as ye do 2. They never desired a Toleration to make a Separation as ye do 3. Either they approved not the ill of the times past but patientlie endured it according to their light hoping and praying to God for better without Schisme 4. Or approved it but when it pleased God in his mercy to illuminate them they disapproved what before they had approved of and changed from worse to better which if ye do O what a joy shall it be unto them and to us all and what a contentment may it bring unto your selves And finally As for the latitude and tolerance ye sue for it is unjust and most pernicious both to Christs Church and the Kingdom as we have hear already cleerly demonstrated FINIS