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A64146 An answer to a book entituled An account of the Church Catholike where it was before the Reformation; and whether Rome were or be the Church Catholike. Wherein is proved, that the Catholike Church never was, nor can be distinct from that which is now called, the Church of Rome. By R.T. Esquire. R. T. 1654 (1654) Wing T42; ESTC R221978 68,689 169

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against the Arrians and that Faelix was appointed to succeed him in the Papacy who was Arrianae Sectae addictus but there is not one word there of Rome's being Arrian Socrat. li. 2. c. ●9 And if Faelix did perchance sometimes favour the Arrian Faction yet was it before he was elected Pope not afterwards as appears plainly by Sozomen in the very place by you cited li. 4. c. 10. Liberius Ecclesiae Romanae Episcopatu privatus est cui praefuïtur Faelix illius Cleri Diaconus quem aiunt Fidei Concilii Nicaeni semper consensisse omnino quantum pertinebat ad Religionem reprehensione caruisse Liberius saith he was depriv'd of the Bishoprick of the Roman Church to which Faelix a Deacon of that Clergy was preferred who is ●said to have alwayes consented to the Faith of the Nicene Councel and was never blameable for any thing that concerned Religion These are the very words of Sozomen and in the very same place cited by the Doctor Nothing there concerning Faelix or Rome's being Arrian Thus the Reader may see how fraudulently the Doctor has dealt with the world Well but Faelix or dained divers Arrians what then must he therefore be an Arrian himself or must he necessarily know them to be such But he communicated with Arrians and must he therefore be an Arrian Do not Catholiques at this time communicate with Heretiques in England France Germany c. in outward conversation and civil commerce though not in their Heresie and you neither have prov'd nor ever can prove that Faelix communicated with the Arrians in their heretical and blasphemous Doctrine but in outward conversation only which is and ever was lawful for any Catholique 61. To pass by your impertinent distinction between a profest and a close Heretique as being nothing to the purpose I come to your other passage wherein you say and cite some Canons for it That the communion of the Church is estimated by communicating with the Bishop and if any whether Priest or other shall sever themselves from the Canonical Bishop they are censur'd to be Heretiques Answ This is to be understood when the Bishop is Catholique and keeps himself within the communion of the Catholique Church but if the Bishop be heretical and the Church shall communicate with him in his Heresie the Church also becomes heretical be the Bishop thereof a profest or close Heretique it matters not but by this your own Rule you must confess your selves Heretiques because you did originally s●ver your selves from your Canonical Catholique Bishops and followed your owne and other mens new inventions and when all your pretended bishops were heretical you communicated with them and their heresies 62. But the bishop may be either a profest or close Heretique and yet the Church may be Catholique and this your self expresly grant in your following Sect. 22. where you say That you believe that the King of England and Arch-bishop of Cauterbury ●ither or both of them may be Heretiques and this Church not so since it is not their being but our complying that makes us heretical Herein you have fully contradicted your self and granted whatsoever I have said concerning this point For if the Church of England may be Catholique though both King and Metropolitan thereof be Heretiques why may not the Church of Rome be Catholique though the bishop thereof be heretical 63. But say you if all our Bishops be of the same Religion with them this Church is in an ill case Answ I say so too yet it may be Catholique All your pretended bishops may be heretical as they were all for about these 100. years together last past and yet there may be a Catholique Church in England It is possible that the particular members of each Diocess may not comply with their bishop in his Heresie and then according to your own saying they are not heretical The inferiour Priests and people may preserve their faith though all the bishops fall from it but what is all this to the purpose Were ever all the bishops that were subject to the Patriarchal Sea of Rome at one and the same time Heretiques I suppose no man besides your self was ever possest with such a ridiculous imagination What if your Archbishop of Canterbury alone had been an Heretique and all the other bishops within his Province Catholique will you therefore conclude that the particular Church or Diocess of Canterbury must necessarily have been heretical If you say so you plainly contradict your self who even now said that it is not the Kings or Arch-bishops being heretical but our complying with them that makes us heretical Sect. 22. 64. But the Doctor pursues this argument close and endeavours to prove that when the King and Priest joyn together it hath a strange influence upon the people for good or bad Answ What then must the people therefore of necessity be good or bad according as the King and Priest are cannot Gods grace overcome this influence and preserve the people from infection but you say When King Ahaz and Urijah the Priest professed I dolatry though many good men were resident among them yet was the City and people accounted heretical Answ First it appears not by the Text that they were so accompted Secondly if they were accompted heretical does it herefore necessarily follow that they were so Does truth and falshood depend on the opinions of men if so then every man in his own opinion would be Catholique and all the world besides that concur not with him in his judgment would be Heretiques It is not necessary that every one must be good or bad catholique or heretique according as some men perchance out of error either in doctrine or fact shall esteem him but what if that city and people were not only accompted but truly and really heretical must it therefore always follow that when the King and Priest are heretical the city and people must of necessity be so too What if Constantius the Emperor and Leon●ius the bishop What if Valens and Eudoxius by joyning together in heresie withdrew many partly by power pardly by example from the Catholique Faith does it therefore always necessarily follow that when the Prince and Priest joyn in heresie the people also must be heretical Must every thing come to pass because it may come to pass No Doctor the young Sophisters will tell you that à posse esse non valet argumentum 65. And whereas you say that under King Edward VI. and Queen Mary the Religion of the church was judged of by the Governours I answer that the Religion of this Nation not of the church for 't is not the Religion of the Prince but the profession of the antient Catholique Faith that constitutes a church was judged of not by the Governours but by the Lawes that were made in K. Edw. VI. and Queen Maryes daies respectively either to establish a new upstart Religion never before heard of in the world or to re-establish