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A15978 [A notable discourse, plainelye and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catholike Church written against Calvin and his disciples, ... with an offer made by a Catholike to be a learned Protestant ... .]; Marques de la vraye église catholique. English Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566.; Rishton, Edward, 1550-1586, attributed name. aut; Allen, William, 1532-1594. 1575 (1575) STC 274; ESTC S112318 85,201 271

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the best of the worlde yea whollye without spot or sinne as some of you doo affyrme yet were not they sufficient to moue vs to chaunge our religion nor to forsake that that our forefathers haue taught vs for although it be so that our Sauiour Christe was as iust and as innocent as any can be hath beene or euer shal be yet neyther his holy life nor the Scriptures that he did alleage to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophetes nor the testimonie of S. Iohn Baptist all these thinges together wer not sufficient to perswade the Iewes to forsake their old lawes and to receaue the Gospell without the testimonie of the great miracles that he did in their presence He doeth confesse this plainely where he sayth If I had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer any had done they should haue no sin This sentence is moste notable and woorthy to be grauen in the heartes of all Catholikes to assure their consciences which are troubled with such diuersitie of opinions For although it were so that you my masters were the honestest men of the worlde sent from God to teache and preache a true doctrine yet shoulde we be excusable before God for not receauing of your commission euen as the Iewes had bene for not receuing of our Sauiour Christe if he had not done so manye miracles For we knowe no cause why you shoulde be more priuileged then Christe And seing that you haue shewed nothing to verifye it this waye and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles and that your liues are at the least as yll as ours what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receaue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discordes and diuisions that one maye easilye gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell the worde of the Lorde and as S. Augustine sayde vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio I say no more at this time but that I beseeche God to drawe you as nere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire youre mindes to turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken FINIS ¶ An offer made by a Catholike to a learned Protestant wherein shall appere the difference betwixte the open knowen Churche of the Catholikes from the hidde and vnknowen congregation of the Protestants FIrste seeing it cannot be denyed that our Sauiour Christe before his departure and Ascension did commit the charge and gouernment of his Churche the testimonie of his word the truth of his Gospell the ministration of his Sacramentes to his Apostles and Disciples that not only for them selues but to their successors Bishops and priests to none other saying onely vnto them Euntes docete omnes gentes Goe ye and teache all people and nations of the worlde baptising them in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghoste teaching them to obserue and keepe all thinges which I haue commaunded you Further Thapostle S Paule being at Miletum in executing of his charge and gouernment gaue this admonition to the bishops and priestes there assembled before him saying Attendite vobis et vniuerso gregi Take hede vnto your selues and vnto the whole flocke of Christe in the which the holy ghoste hath ordeyned you bishops Regere ecclesiam dei to gouerne the church of God. And in the thirtenth Chapiter of his Epistle to the Hebrews he doth commaunde al other sortes of men without exception of Emperours kinges Queenes princes to obey their bisshops and priestes saying Obedite Praepositis vestris et subiacete eis ipsi enim peruigilant quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri Obey your Prelates and doo what they appoynt you for they doo watche as men that shall render accoumptes for your soules Seeing that by the testimonies before alleaged it can not be denyed but that the charge and gouernment of Christe his churche the preaching of his doctrine the administration of his Sacraments was by him committed to his Apostles disciples and to all Bishops and priestes as Successors of them to plant christian fayth and religion in his catholike churche vniuersally throughout all nations coastes and quarters of the worlde Seeing this is by the playnnes of the sayde Testimonyes of suche an vndoubted truth that it cannot be denyed Nowe let the learned Protestant affyrming princes to be the supreme heades of the Church eyther shewe by some suche other like playne testimonyes of the scriptures that our Sauiour Christe did committe the chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Churche to Emperours kinges Queenes and princes to plant christian fayth religion in the same or that anye one of Christe his Apostles or disciples did conuert any people lande or countrey from their Idolatry Ethnike kinde of liuing to Christian fayth religion by preaching the doctrine of the Protestantes as of onely fayth to iustifye the contempt of good workes and that they be all vncleane in the sight of God the denyall of free will of the reall presence of Christes bodye in the holy Eucharist of the sacrifice of the moste blessed Masse the abolishing of Christe his Sacramentes of all grace and goodnes by them cōferred vnto vs then I shal yeelde and recant and not before Seconde Christe his Catholike Churche being on this wise planted by Thapostles disciples of Christe by Bishops and priests the successors of them had at all times a special care and regarde not onelye of preaching Gods worde but also of the preseruation of the same worde and Gospel by writing of the sacred Bible and holy Scriptures and did discerne iudge them from all other writinges prophane or authentique of all sortes What Churche hath had from time to time the custody of the sacred scriptures and moste safely hath preserued them for the necessary foode of Gods people and from the corruption of the aduersaries aswel Iewes and Gentiles as schismatikes and heretikes of all sortes but onely the common knowen Catholike Church of Christ When therefore the learned Protestantes shal be able to bring proufe to the contrarye that their priuate conuenticles and congregations were the firste bringers forth of this sacred Bible and the worde of God written the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages from all Iewes Gentiles heretikes and schismatikes Then I will as I saide before reuolte and recant Thirde shew me good reason why ye protestants doo beleeue our catholike churche enfourming and telling you this to be the word of God written the true Bible and sacred Scriptures and doo refuse to credite her in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture she being
perfectly painted the comming and passion of our Sauiour Moyses left written in the prophecie of Iacob that the Messias should come when the Royall scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniell was not content to saye as the rest that he should come but he did assign the very time that is to say by the seuentie two weeks counting from the fourth yere of the reigne of Zedechias vntill the time that our Sauiour was nayled vpon the Crosse the which time was iust fyue hundred yeres Then seeing that Christe came at the verye prescribed time he might well haue sayde vnto the Iewes that the scriptures did beare witnes of him But yet to say the truth if he had done no other but this he had not fully approued his vocation to condemne their incredulitie For they might haue said vnto him We know well that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob about this time forasmuche as the Scepter of this kingdome is taken from the line of Iuda to be deliuered vnto Herode But what though is this a good consequence the Messias ought to come about this time therefore it is I No no shewe vs your Commission let vs see some Signes howe we shall knowe it for if wee shoulde receaue you as our king it may be that some other woulde come and craue the like saying that wee were abused Our Sauiour Christe sore fearing this obiection tooke another witnes with him besydes the scripture I meane his Miracles The workes that I doo sayth Christe in the name of my father beare witnes of me The like proufe is made when S. Iohn Baptist sent his Disciples to our Sauiour to haue him teache the true beliefe that they should haue in him this question was put to him Art thou he that shoulde come or ought we to attende for some other Go your wayes sayde Christe and tell Iohn what ye haue hearde and seene The blinde receaue their sight the lame do walk vpright the dumbe speake the deafe heare the lepers are cured the dead are raised againe and the poore are preched vnto the which is as much to say as tell Iohn that I am the true Messias and that he ought to attende no other I doo verifye my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles For firste Esay doeth write that when the Messias shoulde come he should doo the Miracles aboue mentioned Then seeing that I haue done them in youre presence it foloweth that I am he that should come Thus you see Sirs that both the Scripture and Miracles were necessarye for the confyrmation of the comming of Christe amonge the Iewes who were neuer harder of beliefe then we are according to your opinion and therefore blame vs not if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures the which doo neither beare witnes of your comming nor yet doo any miracles the which two things and more are necessary to make vs beleue your reformed Gospell ¶ The .32 Chapter YOu doo alleage the inuincible patience of your holye Martyrs in times past for at this present if it plesed God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preching then there are bodyes that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so daungerous as it is You glorye in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holye Citie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrisostome in his fyrste oration against the Iewes doth say That the payne doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues and murderers might clayme the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the Martys saith he not for the tormentes that they doo suffer but for that it is for Christe and that they suffer for Iustice And S. Augustine in his fyrste booke contra Epistolam Parmeniani Capit. septimo writing agaynst some of your felowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of religion otherwise saith he the deuils might attribute vnto themselues the glorye of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the christian Emperours handes when thoroughout the worlde their Idolles were pulled downe and they caste out and those that did offer sacrifice vnto them greuouslye punished then saith he the Iustice is not certaine through the passion or for hauing suffered death but the death and passion is glorious when it is for the sustayning of the true fayth And therefore sayeth he our Sauiour because he would not haue the simple deceaued vnder this coulour of truth he did not onely saye Blessed are those that suffer but he added for Iustice But this can in no wise be attributed vnvnto those heretikes that suffer to seperate the vnion and concorde of the Catholike Churche And in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae contra Epistolam Petiliani he doth write that the Donatists which were a sect of heretikes that reigned in his time to confyrme their doctrine they did not attende that others should put them to death but they did cast them selues downe from high places Others did burne them selues in the fyre to be honored after their death as Martyrs and that is more they did threaten men if they woulde not kill them S. Ciprian in like maner doth write in the fyrste booke of his Epistles in the fyrste Epistle that though an heretike suffer death for Christe that doeth not confyrme him as a Martyr but that his death is the verye punishment of his error and that he cannot go to heauen which is the mansion of the humble for seing that he doth seperate himselfe from the house of peace which is the Churche ye know well of what Churche he doth speake that he cannot be receaued into heauen c All those that haue written the historyes of the Bohemians doo saye that in the time of one Zischa a martiall minister of the heresye of the Heborites or Hussites there were a certaine sect of heretikes called Adamites like vnto the olde heresye of the Nicholaites for they did say as these doo that mens wiues should be common and they went al naked euery one taking the woman he liked best whom he did carye vnto their minister and before him he did saye The holy Ghoste doth inspire me to lye with this person then the saide reuerent father did geue him his blessing saying Increase and multiplye so they went awaye This abouenamed Zischa althoughe he had done a number of wicked deedes yet he determined to abolish and take away this sect and so he caused two women to be burnt for this abhominatiō the which two notwithstanding the torment of the fyre did sing geue thankes to God for that it had pleased him to permit them do dy for so holy and so
or stay in any one of them vntill they come ad profundum malorum and to a most playne and open apostacie to be miscreants Turkishe and of Mahomets religion not caring or setting by God nor the deuill neither for heauen nor hell Nowe heresyes being thus ficle and mouing the finall ende of them thus lamentable and horrible in the sight of God Let any learned protestant liuing answere directlye and playnelye without all cauill coloure or fraude of wordes without all vnprofitable and impertinent digressions not onely to this but to al the foresaide signes tokens and demaundes And I shall for company good felowship with them leaue the common knowen churche and the playne way of saluation beaten by our forefathers for the space of these fyftene hundred yeres past and nowe wander with thē in their vncertaine bypathes through vnknowen desertes rough woods brambles and bryers to seeke in the end we cannot tell what And here to conclude and of my part to minister vnto you some occasion in the relinquishing of these priuate churches and congregations of sectaries to returne to the vnitie and attonement of the common knowen catholike churche of Christe where stabilitie and constancie of fayth and religion is onely to be founde I shall here lay before you the worthy example of the blessed martyr Sebastian by him brought of a loafe of breade to Genserichus then king of the Vandales a furious and a barbarous nation whiche breaking into Affrike they founde there many valiant captayns placed by the Emperour Theodosius the second for the defence and sauegarde of the countrey amonge the rest was this Sebastian by dignitie an earle and a couragious and valiant captayne who with the rest yeelding to the force of Gensericus was as Victor de persecutione Vandalorum writeth for his great wisedome and valiantnes not so muche beloued as feared of the king Genserichus who being an Arrian intended by colour of religion to work his death For Genserichus knowing Sebastian to be a seuere and a perfit christian man conuented him before the Arrian Bishops and vnder the pretence that amitie and frendshippe might be the surer and continue the longer betwixte them Genserichus moued him to become an Arrian and to professe the same maner of beleefe and religion as he and his people were of For answere this holy martyr Sebastian requested Genserichus the king to commaunde a fyne wheten loafe to be brought vnto him and taking it in his hande and here to omit many of his wordes and notable sayinges he requested the king Genserichus to commaund the loafe of breade to be broken in peeces to be ground brought to flower and boulted afreshe to be seasoned with water and salte and baked agayne if then it should in the end proue better bread then it was before he would not faile to accomplishe the king Genserichus his will pleasure but if it were not possible by breaking of the loafe and baking of it againe to better it but to make woorse breade then before he wold not nor could not consent therevnto And in fine suffered death in the defence of the christian fayth religiō by him alreadye professed and receaued rather then he would condiscend to the impayring infringing or breaking of any part therof And so Genserichus caused this blessed man Sebastian to dye a holye Martyr Thus much I haue brieflye deducted out of the history of Victor to that intent that so apte and familiar an example of so holy blessed a martyr might in these perplexities and doubtes in these ofte changes mutations of religion confort the weaklings of Christ his church and bring them to some more better stay when by this example of Sebastians loaf certain sure we may be that the loafe of the vnitie of Christe his Churche the loafe of his Gospell fayth and religion being by schisme and heresye neuer so ofte broken neuer so finely grynded boulted searced and syfted kneaded baked agayne and agayne they shall neuer be able to better it or to bring it to that perfection which it had before And therfore all their attemptes to the contrarye are moste vayne the only remembraunce of this Sebastians loafe should suffise to confyrme the faythfull to stay the wauering and weaklinges and to plucke the deceaued backe agayne and to cause them in leauing of this their fickle waueringnes of this their proceedinges as they terme it from one secte to another from one congregation to another and from their scatering abrode with Antichriste to stay them selues and to gather them selues with our Sauiour Christ into the vnitie of his common knowen catholike churche where they shal be sure to ●ynd vnitie of religion vniformitie in all ceremonies and obseruances of the same with thattonement of christian fayth throughout in all Sacramentes and articles of our Creede to the pacifying of many contentions and strifes among vs to the quietation of mens consciences causing vs all professours of Christe as brethren here to liue together in quietnes peace and vnitie to the more better assuraunce of the publique estate of this Realme and to the great glorye and honour of almightie God to whom be all prayse honour and glorye worlde without ende Amen FINIS Act. 20. In his booke of Insti ca. 18. Art. 58. Heb. 5. L. Si quis ad se ad leg lul de nil publ c Num. 16. 2. Paral. 26 Math. 5. Ephe. 4. Lib. con haer Canti 1. Canti 1. Lib. 4. contra haeres cap. 65. Ephe. 1. Galat. 1. 1. Cor. 10. Exod. 29. Leuit. 4. Num. 8. 17. Act. 8. 19. 13. Tim. ● A 7. Cip. 1. epist. cap. 6. Gal. 1. Ioh. 6. Mat. 22. Rom. 10. Mat. 15. Cap. 3. Rom. 13. Rom. 13. Cap. 14. Cap. 34. Math. 11. Cod. vt nemo in sua causa iud Ioh. 15. Gen. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. Mat. 28. Mat. 12. 24. Exod. 19. Act. 14. Gen. 20. Gen. 24. Iud. 2. Psal. 18. Sap. 13. Rom. 1. Act. 12. Lib. ● ca. 15. Act. 3. Deut. 16. Act. 10. Li. 8. fo 4. Cap. 6. 10. 12. An heresie of the Puritans Cap. 5. Cap. 3. Math. ca. 10. 16. Psal. 90. Ioh. 6. Ioh. 2. 1. Cor 5. Ioh. 8. Psal. 84. Ioh. 5. Gen. ca. 12 15. 19. 22. 24. Ioh. 5. Mat. 11. Luk. 6 Mat. 15. Dani. 15 Iohn 18. Rom. 1. Iohn 8. Sap. 1. 1. Cor. 10. Iohn 10. Ioh. 20. Mat. 16. 2. Cor. 4. Luk. 16. Mat. 7. In his booke of the true body of Christ in the sacrif written in Latin. Mat. 28. Mar. 16. Act. 20. Heb. 13. Ioh. 14. Certayne and assured signes and tokēs of false prophetes heretikes and schismatikes 1. Iohn 2. Rom. 10. Heb. 5. Heb. 13. 1. Cor. 1. 2. Tim. 3. Exod. 7.