but no knowledge of what they are nor any method of obtaining Vertue nor of avoiding Vice The end of Moral Philosophy is to teach men of all sorts their duty both to the Publick and to one another They estimate Vertue partly by a Mediocrity of the Passions of men and partly by that that they are praised whereas it is not the Much or Little Praise that makes an Action vertuous but the Cause nor much or little blame that makes an Action vitious but its being unconformable to the Laws in such men as are subject to the Law or its being unconformable to Equity or Charity in all men whatsoever B. It seems you make a difference between the Ethicks of Subjects and the Ethicks of Sovereigns A. So I do The Vertue of a Subject is comprehended wholly in obedience to the Laws of the Common-wealth To obey the Laws is Justice and Equity which is the Law of Nature and consequently is Civil Law in all Nations of the World and nothing is Injustice or Iniquity otherwise than it is against the Law Likewise to obey the Laws is the Prudence of a Subject for without such obedience the Common-wealth which is every Subject's safety and protection cannot subsist And though it be prudence also in private men justly and moderately to enrich themselves yet craftily to with-hold from the Publick or defraud it of such part of their wealth as is by Law requir'd is no sign of prudence but of want of knowledge of what is necessary for their own defence The Vertues of Sovereigns are such as tend to the maintenance of peace at home and to the resistance of Forreign Enemies Fortitude is a Royal Vertue and though it be necessary in such private men as shall be Soldiers yet for other men the less they dare the better it is both for the Common-wealth and for themselves Frugality though perhaps you will think it strange is also a Royal Vertue for it increases the Publick Stock which cannot be too great for the Publick Use nor any man too sparing of what he has in trust for the good of others Liberality also is a Royal Vertue for the Common-wealth cannot be well served without extraordinary diligence and service of Ministers and great fidelity to their Sovereigns who ought therefore to be encouraged and especially those that do him service in the Wars In sum all Actions and Habits are to be esteemed good or evil by their causes and usefulness in reference to the Common-wealth and not by their Mediocrity nor by their being commended for several men praise several Customs and that which is Vertue with one is blamed by others and contrarily what one calls Vice another calls Vertue as their present affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed among the Vertues that which in my opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whither do we digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that pass'd in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Councels and Artifice by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have written the History out of whom I might have learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of what I would ask Therefore since you were pleas'd to enter into this discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method and for the danger of confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A. Well then To your question concerning Religion in as much as I told you that all Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Common-wealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no evidence from the Laws of Men but because Men can never by their own wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and commanded to be observ'd nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiesce in some Humane Authority or other So that the Question will be whether a Man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his duty to God and the King to rely upon the preaching of their fellow-Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that Point for there is none that preach here or any where else at least ought to preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power so that if the King gives us leave you or I may as lawfully preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into the Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many Points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle For in the Church of Rome the principal Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious To be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the Cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the goodness and wickedness of all Actions by their congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Philosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writings B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who if they had power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians do to have a Right from God immediately to govern the King and his Subjects in all Points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had number and strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to obtain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a Systeme of the present Morals written by
that they fell in hand with the work so quickly For the first Rector of the University of Paris as I have read somewhere was Peter Lombard who first brought in them the Learning called School-Divinity and was seconded by John Scot of Duns who lived in or near the same time whom any ingenious Reader not knowing what was the Design would judge to have been two the most egregious Blockheads in the World so obscure and senseless are their Writings And from these the School-men that succeeded learnt the trick of imposing what they list upon their Readers and declining the force of true Reason by Verbal Forkes I mean Distinctions that signifie nothing but serve only to astonish the multitude of ignorant Men. As for the understanding Readers they were so few that these new sublime Doctors cared not what they thought These School men were to make good all the Articles of Faith which the Popes from time to time should command to be believ'd amongst which there were very many inconsistent with the Rights of Kings and other Civil Sovereigns as asserting to the Pope all Authority whatsoever they should declare to be necessary in ordine ad spiritualia that is to say in order to Religion From the Universities also it was That all Preachers proceeded and were poured out into City and Country to terrifie the People into an absolute obedience to the Pope's Canons and Commands which for fear of wakening Kings and Princes too much they durst not yet call Laws From the Universities it was That the Philosophy of Aristotle was made an Ingredient to Religion as serving for a Salve to a great many of absurd Articles concerning the Nature of Christ's Body and the Estate of Angels and Saints in Heaven which Articles they thought fit to have believed because they bring some of them profit and others reverence to the Clergy even to the meanest of them for when they shall have made the People believe that the meanest of them can make the Body of Christ who is there that will not both shew them reverence and be liberal to them or to the Church especially in the time of their sickness when they think they make and bring unto them their Saviour B. But what advantage to them in these Impostures was the Doctrine of Aristotle A. They have made more use of his obscurity than of his Doctrine for none of the Ancient Philosophers Writings are comparable to those of Aristotle for their aptness to puzzle and entangle men with words and to breed Disputation which must at last be ended in the Determination of the Church of Rome and yet in the Doctrine of Aristotle they made use of many Points as first the Doctrine of seperated Essences B. What are seperated Essences A. Seperated Beings B. Seperated from what A. From every thing that is B. I cannot understand the Being of any thing which I understand not to be but what can they make of that A. Very much in questions concerning the Nature of God and concerning the Estate of Man's Soul after death in Heaven Hell and Purgatory by which you and every man knows how great obedience and how much Money they gain from the Common People Whereas Aristotle holdeth the Soul of Man to be the first giver of motion to the Body and consequently to it self they make use of that in the Doctrine of Free-will what and how they gain by that I will not say He holdeth forth that there be many things that come to pass in this World from no necessity of Causes but meer Contingency Casualty and Fortune B. Methinks in this they make God stand idle and to be a meer Spectator of the Games of Fortune for what God is the cause of must needs come to pass and in my opinion nothing else But because there must be some ground for the Justice of the Eternal Torment of the damned perhaps it is this that mens Wills and Propensions are not they think in the Hands of God but of themselves and in this also I see somewhat conducing to the Authority of the Church A. This is not much nor was Aristotle of such credit with them but that when his Opinion was against theirs they could slight him Whatsoever he says is impossible in nature they can prove well enough to be possible from the Almighty Power of God who can make many Bodies to be in one and the self-same place and one Body to be in many places at the same time if the Doctrine of Transubstantiation require it though Aristotle deny it I like not the Design of drawing Religion into an Art whereas it ought to be a Law and though not the same in all Countries yet in every Country undisputable nor that they teach it not as Arts ought to be taught by shewing first the meaning of their Terms and then deriving from them the truth they would have us believe nor that their Terms are for the most part unintelligible though to make it seem rather want of Learning in the Reader than want of fair dealing in themselves They are for the most part Latin and Greek words wryed a little at the point towards the Native Language of the several Countries where they are used But that which is most intolerable is that all Clerks are forced to make as if they believed them if they mean to have any Church-preferment the Keys whereof are in the Pope's Hands and the Common People whatsoever they believe of those subtile Doctrines are never esteemed better Sons of the Church for their Learning There is but one way there to Salvation that is extraordinary Devotion and Liberality to the Church and readiness for the Churches sake if it be requir'd to fight against their Natural and Lawful Sovereigns B. I see what use they make of Aristotle's Logick Physicks and Metaphysicks but I see not yet how his Politicks can serve their turn A. Nor I. It has I think done them no good though it has done us here much hurt by accident for men grown weary at last of the Insolence of the Priests and examining the truth of these Doctrines that were put upon them began to search the sense of the Scriptures as they are in the learned Languages and consequently studying Greek and Latin became acquainted with the Democratical Principles of Aristotle and Cicero and from the love of their Eloquence fell in love with their Politicks and that more and more till it grew into the Rebellion we now talk of without any other advantage to the Roman Church but that it was a weakening to us whom since we broke out of their Net in the time of Henry the 8 th they have continually endeavoured to recover B. What have they gotten by the teaching of Aristotle's Ethicks A. It is some advantage to them that neither the Morals of Aristotle nor of any other have done them any harm nor us any good Their Doctrines have caused a great deal of dispute concerning Vertue and Vice
of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most People taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergy B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are by them esteemed very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or Purses when they shall be requir'd To believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and Liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret lateri lethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians has been stuck so hard in the Peoples Heads and Memories I cannot say into their Hearts for they understand nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel that I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The two great Vertues that were severally in Henry the 7 th and Henry the 8 th when they shall be joyntly in one King will easily cure it That of Henry the 7 th was without much noise of the People to fill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 th was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks methinks like an Advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready Money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall upon them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible unchristian and inhumane a design should ever enter into the King's Heart I would have him have Money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from his Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the actual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws The Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true Politicks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their Duty to obey all Laws whatsoever that shall by the Authority of the King be enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repealed such as are fit to make men understand that the Civil Laws are God's Laws as they that make them are by God appointed to make them and to make men know that the People and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the King and that no man has Title to govern under him that has it not from him That the King owes his Crown to God only and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting for the coming again of our Blessed Saviour and in the mean time a resolution to obey the King's Laws which also are God's Laws To injure no man to be in charity with all men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live soberly and free from scandal Without mingling our Religion with Points of Natural Philosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal Substance everlasting Nows Ubiquities Hypostases which the People understand not nor will ever care for When the Universities shall be thus disciplin'd there will come out of them from time to time well principled Preachers and they that are now ill principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant For if men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey the Laws An Army you 'l say but what shall force the Army Were not the Train'd-Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not very long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that men may be brought to a love of obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting Peace till the Universities themselves be in such manner as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the Supreme Civil Power gives them and the Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an exemption from the Laws of their own Country whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarch but an exemption from the constraint and insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this Point I will bring you back to the place from whence my curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the Point of Ship-Money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyrannical and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you call'd it the King from his Subjects and to make a Party against him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our Discourse of this business and refer it to some other day that you shall think fit B. Content That day I believe is not far off Behemoth PART II. A. YOU are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer my memory would have been so much the better provided for you B. Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content you take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the People believe that the exacting of Ship-Money was unlawful and the People thereby inclined to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase their disaffection to his Majesty they accused him of a purpose to introduce and authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom than which nothing was more hateful to the People not because it was erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to hear it inveighed against in the Sermons and Discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual calumny to alienate the People's affections from him that could possibly be invented The colour they had for this slander was first that there was one Rosetti Resident at and a little before that time from the Pope with the Queen and one Mr. George Con Secretary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbarini Nephew to Pope Vrban the 8 th sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceiv'd to draw as many Persons of Quality about the Court as he should be able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell but it is likely he gained some especially
which is a Person indued with Authority universal to govern all Christian men on Earth no more than there is one Universal Soveraign Prince or State on Earth that hath right to govern all Mankind I deny also that the whole Clergy of a Christian Kingdom or State being assembled are the representative of that Church further than the Civil Laws permits or can lawfully assemble themselves unless by the command or by the leave of the Soveraign Civil Power I say further that the denyal of this point tendeth in England towards the taking away of the Kings Supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical But his Lordship has not here denyed any thing of mine because he has done no more but set down my words He says further that this Doctrine destroyes the Authority of all General Councils which I confess Nor hath any General Council at this day in this Kingdom the force of a Law nor ever had but by the Authority of the King J. D. Neither is he more Orthodox concerning the Holy Scriptures Hitherto that is for the Books of Moses the power of making the Scripture Canonical was in the Civil Soveraign The like he saith of the Old Testament made Canonical by Esdras And of the New Testament That it was not the Apostles which made their own Writings Canonical but every Convert made them so to himself Yet with this restriction That until the Soveraign Ruler had prescribed them they were but Counsel and Advice which whether good or bad he that was counselled might without injustice refuse to observe and being contrary to the Laws established could not without injustice observe He maketh the Primitive Christians to have been in a pretty condition Certainly the Gospel was contrary to the Laws then established But most plainly The word of the Interpreter of the Scripture is the word of God And the same is the Interpreter of the Scripture and the Soveraign Judge of all Doctrines that is the Soveraign Magistrate to whose Authority we must stand no less than to theirs who at first did commend the Scripture to us for the Canon of Faith Thus if Christian Soveraigns of different Communications do clash one with another in their interpretations or misinterpretation of Scripture as they do daily then the word of God is contradictory to it self or that is the word of God in one Common-wealth which is the word of the Devil in another Common-wealth And the same thing may be true and not true at the same time Which is the peculiar priviledge of T.H. to make Contradictories to be true together T. H. There is no doubt but by what Authority the Scripture or any other Writing is made a Law by the same Authority the Scriptures are to be interpreted or else they are made Law in vain But to obey is one thing to believe is another which distinction perhaps his Lordship never heard of To obey is to do or forbear as one is commanded and depends on the Will but to believe depends not on the Will but on the providence and guidance of our hearts that are in the hands of God Almighty Laws only required obedience Belief requires Teachers and Arguments drawn either from Reason or from some thing already believed Where there is no reason for our Belief there is no reason we should believe The reason why men believe is drawn from the Authority of those men whom we have no just cause to mistrust that is of such men to whom no profit accrues by their deceiving us and of such men as never used to lye or else from the Authority of such men whose Promises Threats and Affirmations we have seen confirmed by God with Miracles If it be not from the Kings Authority that the Scripture is Law what other Authority makes it Law Here some man being of his Lordships judgment will perhaps laugh and say 't is the Authority of God that makes them Law I grant that But my question is on what Authority they believe that God is the Author of them Here his Lordship would have been at a Nonplus and turning round would have said the Authority of the Scripture makes good that God is their Author If it be said we are to believe the Scripture upon the Authority of the Universal Church why are not the Books we call Apocrypha the Word of God as well as the rest If this Authority be in the Church of England then it is not any other than the Authority of the Head of the Church which is the King For without the Head the Church is mute the Authority therefore is in the King which is all that I contended for in this point As to the Laws of the Gentiles concerning Religion in the Primitive times of the Church I confess they were contrary to Christian Faith But none of their Laws nor Terrors nor a mans own Will are able to take away Faith though they can compel to an external obedience and though I may blame the Ethnick Princes for compelling men to speak what they thought not yet I absolve not all those that have had the Power in Christian Churches from the same fault For I believe since the time of the first four General Councels there have been more Christians burnt and killed in the Christian Church by Ecclesiastical Authority than by the Heathen Emperors Laws for Religion only without Sedition All that the Bishop does in this Argument is but a heaving at the Kings Supremacy Oh but says he if two Kings interpret a place of Scripture in contrary sences it will follow that both sences are true It does not follow For the interpretation though it be made by just Authority must not therefore always be true If the Doctrine in the one sence be necessary to Salvation then they that hold the other must dye in their sins and be Damned But if the Doctrine in neither sence be necessary to Salvation then all is well except perhaps that they will call one another Atheists and fight about it J. D. All the power vertue use and efficacy which he ascribeth to the Holy Sacraments is to be signs or commemorations As for any sealing or confirming or conferring of Grace he acknowledgeth nothing The same he saith particularly of Baptism Upon which grounds a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace may be called Sacraments as well as Baptism or the holy Eucharist if they be only signs and commemorations of a benefit If he except that Baptism and the Eucharist are of Divine institution But a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace are not He saith truly but nothing to his advantage or purpose seeing he deriveth all the Authority of the Word and Sacraments in respect of Subjects and all our obligation to them from the Authority of the Soveraign Magistrate without which these words repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus are but Counsel no Command And so a Serjeant at Arms his Mace and Baptism proceed both from
in defence of the Civil Power that must be punish'd by him whose Rights he defended like Vzza that was slain because he would needs unbidden put forth his Hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said at least by any of the Popes Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to do with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same Case as if a Nation should be cast off by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not be taken so much for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation methinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights that the Pope pretended to in the Kingdoms of other Princes A. First An Exemption of all Priests Friars and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and exaction of Tenths First Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supream Judge concerning Lawfulness of Marriage i. e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognisance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good A Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly A Power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This Power of absolving Subjects of their Obedience as also that other of being Judge of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as is possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and no Man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd Which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that would cast you Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd A. Doubtless he that dies in sin without repentance is damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the Kings Laws either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent You see what follows but to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrines of those Men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion So the different Sects of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresies but in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the salvation of Mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and Dominion over Mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not only Men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the Interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the first year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordain'd That the persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the first four General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the Assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new error that hath not yet been declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declar'd Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself Nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declared a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie and that as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those Points that the first four General Councils have declared Heresie B. The first General Council held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ. The second General Council held at Constantinople declared Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The third Council assembled at Ephesus condemned the
else want lawful Heirs to succeed him by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any Controversie between him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for among them Episcopus was a Name common to all Kings Is not he a Bishop now to whom God hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pastor but a Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laique and Clerique and he only Shepherd And seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian endued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not only a Bishop but an Arch-bishop and his whole Dominion his Diocess And though it were granted that Imposition of Hands is necessary from a Priest yet seeing Kings have the Government of the Clergy that are his Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self wherein he is receiv'd as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you This Prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the 7 th and William the first King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelors at his service Secondly That Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that confessed in writing but that use was taken away about the time of King Edward the third and Priests commanded to take Confessions from the Mouth of the Confitent and Men did generally believe that without Confession and Absolution before their departure out of the World they could not be saved and having Absolution from a Priest that they could not be damn'd You understand by this how much every Man would stand in awe of the Pope and Clergy more than they would of the King and what Inconvenience it is to a State for their Subjects to confess their secret Thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit sins absolutely but only with a condition of repentance yet the People were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was perform'd Within the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a Man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a Point very difficult for a Man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insult upon the dulness not only of Common People but also of Kings and their Councellors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviour's Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Popes Authority they had many fine Points in their Ecclesiastical Politie conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time For then it was the Order came up of Preaching Friars that wandred up and down with power to preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the People nothing that might lessen the Obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power Besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak Judgment confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or Pious Works and necessary for the remission of their sins B. I do not remember that I have read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private Man to call the People together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendome I believe the Heathen Kings foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath-day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself and I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach Men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the People and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperor Charles the Great and of King Edward the third of England began their second Politie which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all the Decrees of the Roman Church by disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Philosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperor by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latin Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of
Learning there was none erected till that time thoogh it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long time before many more were added to them by the devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy Men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their Friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to Preferment both in Church and Common-wealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect receiv'd was the maintenance of the Popes Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School-Divines who striving to make good many Points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School-Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may perceive that shall consider the Writings of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or any other School-Divine of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admir'd by two sorts of Men otherwise prudent enough the one of which sorts were of those that were already devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admir'd the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent Men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine So that all sorts of People were fully resolv'd that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more than what was due to him B. I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such Authority will have but a hard match of it for want of Men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great Rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Popes quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the 4 th wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it But the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the 8 th could then so utterly extinguish the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First the Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their Lives which the Gentry and Men of good Education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common People which from a long Custom had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly the Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly the Revenue of Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings Hands and by him being disposed of to the most Eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a Nature quick and severe in the punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his Designs Lastly as to Invasion from abroad in case the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre Besides the French and Spanish Forces were employed at that time one against another and though they had been at leisure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniards found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was amongst other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterward did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his anger There was besides a Controversie in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church And because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let that Act of Parliament pass In the Reign of King Edward the 6 th the Doctrine of Luther had taken so great root in England that they threw out also a great many of the Popes new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by Henry the 8 th saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward And so it hath continued till this day excepting the Interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical Men. But though the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of
their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in Points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesome to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean the Gunpowder-Treason And upon that account the Papists of England have been looked upon as Men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Popes Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plessis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Popes Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the World and I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendome never perceiv'd it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner But if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the 8 th did Head of the Church within their own respective Dominions but not agreeing they let his power continue every one hoping to make use of it when there should be cause against his Neighbour B. Now as to that other distemper by Presbyterians how came their power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and the Reformed Churches could not choose but make every man to the best of his power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas before the Translation of them was not allowed nor any Man to read them but such as had express licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain number of Chapters a day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every Man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so What other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions Else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me seal'd up in Hebrew Greek and Latin and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches Peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late Kings Reign and did then appear to the disturbance of the Common-wealth But to return to the Story those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was profess'd and governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better States-men in Points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass Also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but they were defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not only the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market-Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church-Government Canons and Common-Prayer-Book so did the other make them in love with Democracy by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourses and Communication with People in the Country continually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyranny leaving the People to collect of themselves that this Tyranny was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Queen Elizabeth And though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief Leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less learned and the Gentlemen envying the Privy-Council whom they thought less wise than themselves For 't is a hard matter for Men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any ability requisite for the Government of a Common-wealth especially having read the glorious Histories and the sententious Politiques of the ancient popular Governments of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular
are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty to do so They see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon their doing it Every man by nature without discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself from his obedience He reads that Covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is seal'd up in Greek and Latin and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers But they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot choose but by their reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and Quality are followed by their inferior Neighbours that look more upon the Example of those Men whom they reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease than upon Precepts and Laws B. These Men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others These are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places which teach them their Duty fall to scanning only of the Mysteries of Religion such as are How it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but One How the Deity could be made Flesh How that Flesh could be really present in many places at once Where 's the Place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines Whether the Will of Man be free or governed by the Will of God Whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education By whom Christ now speaks to us Whether by the King or by the Clergy or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like Points are the study of the Curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of Men whom the Scripture had taught belief in Christ Love towards God Obedience to the King and sobriety of behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scripture to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their Interpretation for the Word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know is so easie as not to need Interpretation Whatsoever is more does them no good But in case any of those unnecessary Doctrines shall be authorized by the Laws of the King or other State I say it is the Duty of every Subject not to speak against them in as much as it is every man's Duty to obey Him or Them that have the Sovereign Power and the Wisdom of all such Powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to Sedition or Disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had their breeding in the Universities for such curious Questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those Politick Questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastick Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the Works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their Disputation against the necessary Power of their Sovereigns Therefore I despair of any lasting Peace amongst our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their Studies to the setling of it that is to the teaching of absolute Obedience to the Laws of the King and to his Publick Edicts under the Great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid Reason back'd with the Authority of so many Learned Men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any Victory can do over the Rebels but I am afraid that 't is impossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business A. Seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all Points for the King's Power presently after that King Henry the 8 th was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are governed and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferior Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their Spiritual Power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by a successive Imposition of Hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the Hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off For though they were content that the Divine Right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nouns and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters
of Henry the third the Lords were descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow-Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France but after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue failed Titulary only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being no longer bound to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Councel And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased but I do not find they were part of the King's Councel at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other but I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Councel about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws To choose his own Privy-Councellors To raise Money and Soldiers To defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom To make Captains in his Army To make Governours of his Castles whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8 th adjourned till the 20 th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most seditious of both Houses and which had design'd the change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up any other Government in its place and consequently left it to the chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got together a great Party with an intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle in October the 20 th where the King's Officers of the Government of that Countrey made their Residence and had effected it had it not been discovered the night before The manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole Story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect and provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England for was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England Or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastise them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scotch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Counsellors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the power of pressing and ordering of Soldiers which power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole Sovereignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25 th of November and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the Common People as much as if he had been the most beloved of all the Kings that were before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December the second the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succors for Ireland B. What quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in agitation to assert the Power of Levying and Pressing Soldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take from the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Sovereign Power for he that hath the power of Levying and Commanding of the Soldiers has all other Rights of Sovereignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14 th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering of the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withal told them he took notice of the Bill in agitation for pressing of Soldiers and that he was contented it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unseasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing What 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrel'd at is another They quarrel'd at this That his Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the course of Parliament and also that he shewed himself displeas'd with those that propounded the said Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them reparation against those by whose evil Counsel he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill in debate then in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a Man should be lawfully in the company of Men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in
to perform July the 11 th the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at New-Castle which Propositions they pretended to be the only way to a setled and well grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir Walter Earle Sir John Hyppesly Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked if they had power to Treat and when they said no why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The Propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis And so at last the bargain was made between them and upon the payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive him B. What a vile Complexion has this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very Covetousness Cowardice Perjury and Treachery A. Now the War that seemed to justifie many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing else in these Rebels but baseness and falseness besides their folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest of the Kings Garrisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by order from his Majesty for a time which by Divisions amongst the Irish was ill kept the Popish Party the Pope's Nuntio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English Besides the time of the Peace was now expir'd B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. This Distinction is somewhat too subtil for common Understandings In Scotland the Marquess of Montrosse for the King with a very few Men and miraculous Victories had over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having Intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to fly back into the Highlands to recruit where he began to recover strength when he was commanded by the King then in the hands of the Scots at New-Castle to disband and he departed from Scotland by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the Kings Great Seal to be broken also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also died the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was peace in England and the King in prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the Exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a Game at Cards without fighting all the years 1647. and 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant-General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry the 8 th abolished the Popes Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas before the Pope allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the Divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the Papacy set up Presbyteries for the Government of their several Churches and divers English Scholars that went beyond Sea during the persecution in the time of Queen Mary were much taken with this Government and at their return in the time of Queen Elizabeth and ever since have endeavour'd to the great trouble of the Church and Nation to set up that Government here wherein they might domineer and applaud their own Wit and Learning and these took upon them not only a Divine Right but also a Divine Inspiration and having been connived at and countenanced sometimes in their frequent preaching they introduced many strange and many pernicious Doctrines out-doing the Reformation as they pretended both of Luther and Calvin receding from the former Divinity or Church-Philosophy for Religion is another thing as much as Luther and Calvin had receded from the Pope and distracted their Auditors into a great number of Sects as Brownists Anabaptists Independents Fifth-monarchy-men Quakers and divers others all commonly called by the name of Fanaticks in so much as there was no so dangerous an Enemy to the Presbyterians as this brood of their own hatching These were Cromwel's best Cards whereof he had a very great number in the Army and some in the House whereof he himself was thought one though he were nothing certain but applying himself always to the Faction that was strongest was of a colour like it There were in the Army a great number if not the greatest part that aimed only at rapine and sharing the Lands and Goods of their Enemies and these also upon the opinion they had of Cromwel's Valor and Conduct thought they could not any way better arrive at their ends than by adhering to him Lastly in the Parliament it self though not the Major part yet a considerable number were Fanaticks enough to put in doubts and cause delay in the resolutions of the House and sometimes also by advantage of a thin House to carry a Vote in favour of Cromwel as they did upon the 26 th of July For whereas on the fourth of May precedent the Parliament had voted that the Militia of London should be in the hands of a Committee of Citizens whereof the Lord Major for the time being should be one shortly after the Independents chancing to be the major made an Ordinance by which it was put into hands more favourable to the Army The best Cards the Parliament had were the City of London and the Person of the King The General Sir Tho. Fairfax was right Presbyterian but in the hands of the Army and the Army in the hands of Cromwel but which Party should prevail depended on the playing of the Game Cromwel protested still obedience and fidelity to the Parliament but meaning nothing less bethought him and resolv'd on a way to excuse himself of all that he should do to the contrary upon the Army Therefore he and his Son-in-law Commissary-General Ireton as good at contriving as himself and at speaking and writing better contrive how to mutiny the Army against the Parliament To
this end they spread a whisper through the Army that the Parliament now they had the King intended to disband them to cheat them of their Arrears and to send them into Ireland to be destroyed by the Irish. The Army being herewith enraged were taught by Ireton to erect a Councel amongst themselves of two Soldiers out of every Troop and every Company to Consult for the good of the Army and to assist at the Councel of War and to advise for the Peace and safety of the Kingdom These were called Adjutators so that whatsoever Cromwel would have to be done he needed nothing to make them do it but secretly to put it into the head of these Adjutators The effect of the first Consultation was to take the King from Holmeby and to bring him to the Army The General hereupon by Letter to the Parliament excuses himself and Cromwel and the Body of the Army as ignorant of the Fact and that the King came away willingly with those Soldiers that brought him assuring them withal that the whole Army intended nothing but Peace nor opposed Presbytery nor affected Independency nor did hold any licentious freedom in Religion B. 'T is strange that Sir Thomas Fairfax could be so abused by Cromwel as to believe this which he himself here writes A. I cannot believe that Cornet Joyce could go out of the Army with 1000 Soldiers to fetch the King and neither the General nor the Lieutenant General nor the Body of the Army take notice of it And that the King went willingly appears to be false by a Message sent on purpose from his Majesty to the Parliament B. Here is Perfidie upon Perfidie first the Perfidie of the Parliament against the King and then the Perfidie of the Army against the Parliament A. This was the first trick Cromwel plaid whereby he thought himself to have gotten so great an advantage that he said openly That he had the Parliament in his Pocket as indeed he had and the City too for upon the news of it they were both the one and the other in very great disorder and the more because there came with it a Rumor that the Army was marching up to London The King in the mean time till his Residence was setled at Hampton-Court was carried from place to place not without some ostentation but with much more liberty and with more respect shewn him by far than when he was in the Hands of the Parliaments Commissioners for his own Chaplains were allowed him and his Children and some Friends permitted to see him Besides that he was much complemented by Cromwel who promised him in a serious and seeming passionate manner to restore him to his Right against the Parliament B. How was he sure he could do that A. He was not sure but he was resolved to march up to the City and Parliament to set up the King again and be the second Man unless in the attempt he found better hope than yet he had to make himself the first Man by dispossessing the King B. What assistance against the Parliament and the City could Cromwel expect from the King A. By declaring directly for him he might have had all the King's Party which were many more now since his misfortune than ever they were before For in the Parliament it self there were many that had discovered the Hypocrisie and private Aims of their Fellows Many were converted to their Duty by their own Natural Reason and their Compassion for the King's Sufferings had begot generally an Indignation against the Parliament so that if they had been by the Protection of the present Army brought together and embodied Cromwel might have done what he had pleas'd in the first place for the King and in the second for himself but it seems he meant first to try what he could do without the King and if that proved enough to rid his hands of him B. What did the Parliament and City do to oppose the Army A. First the Parliament sent to the General to re-deliver the King to their Commissioners In stead of an Answer to this the Army sent Articles to the Parliament and with them a charge against eleven of their Members all of them active Presbyterians of which Articles these are some 1. That the House may be purged of those who by the self-denying Ordinance ought not to be there 2. That such as abused and endangered the Kingdom might be disabled to do the like hereafter 3. That a day might be appointed to determine this Parliament 4. That they would make an Accompt to the Kingdom of the vast Sums of Money they had received 5. That the eleven Members might presently be suspended sitting in the House These were the Articles that put them to their Trumps and they answered none of them but that of the suspension of the eleven Members which they said they could not do by Law till the Particulars of the Charge were produced but this was soon answer'd with their own proceeding against the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury and the Earl of Strafford The Parliament being thus somewhat awed and the King made somewhat confident he undertakes the City requiring the Parliament to put the Militia of London into other hands B. What other hands I do not well understand you A. I told you that the Militia of London was on the fourth of May put into the hands of the Lord-Major and other Citizens and soon after put into the hands of other men more favourable to the Army and now I am to tell you that on July the 26 th the violence of certain Apprentices and disbanded Soldiers forced the Parliament to re-settle it as it was in the Citizens and hereupon the two Speakers and divers of the Members ran away to the Army where they were invited and contented to sit and vote in the Councel of War in nature of a Parliament and out of these Citizens hands they would have the Militia taken away and put again into those hands out of which it was taken the 26 th of July B. What said the City to this A. The Londoners manned their Works viz. the Line of Communication raised an Army of valiant Men within the Line chose good Officers all being desirous to go out and fight whensoever the City should give them Order and in that posture stood expecting the Enemy The Soldiers in the mean time enter into an Engagement to live and die with Sir Tho. Fairfax and the Parliament and the Army B. That 's very fine They imitate that which the Parliament did when they first took up Arms against the King stiling themselves the King and Parliament maintaining that the King was always virtually in his Parliament So the Army now making War against the Parliament called themselves the Parliament and the Army but they might with more reason say that the Parliament since it was in Cromwel's Pocket was virtually in the Army A. Withal they send out a Declaration of the Grounds of their
forth they were erecting that High Court of Justice which took away the Lives of Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland and the Lord Capel Whatsoever they meant by a fundamental Law the erecting of this Court was a breach of it as being warranted by no former Law or Example in England At the same time also they Levied Taxes by Soldiers and to Soldiers permitted Free quarter and did many other Actions which if the King had done they would have said had been done against the Liberty and Propriety of the Subject B. What silly things are the common sort of people to be cozened as they were so grosly A. What sort of people as to this matter are not of the common sort The craftiest Knaves of all the Rump were no wiser than the rest whom they cozened for the most of them did believe that the same things which they imposed upon the generality were just and reasonable and especially the great Haranguers and such as pretended to Learning for who can be a good Subject in a Monarchy whose Principles are taken from the Enemies of Monarchy such as were Cicero Seneca Cato and other Politicians of Rome and Aristotle of Athens who seldom spake of Kings but as of Wolves and other ravenous Beasts You may perhaps think a man has need of nothing else to know the Duty he owes to his Governour and what Right he has to order him but a good Natural Wit but it is otherwise for it is a Science and built upon sure and clear Principles and to be learned by deep and careful study or from Masters that have deeply studied it and who was there in the Parliament or in the Nation that could find out those evident Principles and derive from them the necessary Rules of Justice and the necessary Connexion of Justice and Peace The People have one day in seven the leisure to hear Instruction and there are Ministers appointed to teach them their Duty but how have those Ministers performed their Office A great part of them namely the Presbyterian Ministers throughout the whole War instigated the People against the King so did also Independents and other Fanatick Ministers The rest contented with their Livings preached in their Parishes Points of Controversie to Religion impertinent but to the breach of Charity among them selves very effectual or else eloquent things which the People either understood not or thought themselves not concerned in But this sort of Preachers as they did little good so they did little hurt The mischief proceeded wholly from the Presbyterian Preachers who by a long practiced Histrionique faculty preached up the Rebellion powerfully B. To what end A. To the end that the State becoming popular the Church might be so too and governed by an Assembly and by consequence as they thought seeing Politicks are subservient to Religion they might govern and thereby satisfie not only their covetous humour with Riches but also their malice with power to undo all men that admir'd not their wisdom Your calling the People silly things obliged me by this Digression to shew you that it is not want of Wit but want of the Science of Justice that brought them into these troubles Perswade if you can that man that has made his fortune or made it greater or an Eloquent Orator or a Ravishing Poet or a subtil Lawyer or but a good Hunter or a cunning Gamester that he has not a good Wit and yet there were of all these a great many so silly as to be deceiv'd by the Rump and Members of the same Rump They wanted not Wit but the knowledge of the Causes and Grounds upon which one Person has a Right to govern and the rest an Obligation to obey which Grounds are necessary to be taught the People who without them cannot live long in peace amongst themselves B. Let us return if you please to the Proceedings of the Rump A. In the rest of this year they voted a new Stamp for the Coyn of this Nation They considered also of Agents to be sent to Forreign States and having lately receiv'd applause from the Army for their work done by the High Court of Justice and encouragement to extend the same farther they perfected the said High Court of Justice in which were tryed Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland Lord Capel the Earl of Norwich and Sir John Owen whereof as I mentioned before the three first were beheaded This affrighted divers of the King's Party out of the Land for not only they but all that had born Arms for the King were at that time in very great danger of their Lives For it was put to the question by the Army at a Councel of War whether they should be all Massacred or no where the Noes carried it but by two Voices Lastly March the 24 th they put the Major of London out of his Office fined him 2000 l. disfranchised him and condemned him to two months Imprisonment in the Tower for refusing to proclaim the Act for abolishing the Kingly Power And thus ended the year 1648. and the Monthly Fast God having granted that which they fasted for the Death of the King and the Possession of his Inheritance By these their Proceedings they had already lost the Hearts of the generality of the People and had nothing to trust to but the Army which was not in their power but in Cromwel's who never failed when there was occasion to put them upon all Exploits that might make them odious to the people in order to his future dissolving them whensoever it should conduce to his ends In the beginning of 1649. the Scots discontented with the Proceedings of the Rump against the late King began to Levy Soldiers in order to a new Invasion of England The Irish Rebels for want of timely resistance from England were grown terrible and the English Army at home infected by the Adjutators were casting how to share the Land amongst the Godly meaning themselves and such others as they pleased who were therefore called Levellers Also the Rump for the present were not very well provided of Money and therefore the first thing they did was the laying of a Tax upon the People of 90000 l. a month for the maintenance of the Army B. Was it not one of their quarrels with the King That he had Levied Money without the consent of the People in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the Peoples consent and consequently Legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from engaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they called it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of 17000 Foot and
6000 Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolved to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army in England This hap'ned well for Cromwel for the Levelling Soldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that in stead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their Lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Collonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same Resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon removed This done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London feasted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters and then Doctors A. They had made themselves already Masters both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Dr. Cromwel intituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the King's Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy amongst themselves and these Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanricard and my Lord Inchiquin so that they were the greatest united strength in the Island but there were amongst them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuntio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord-Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it did to preserve the Place for the Protestants surrender it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at that time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the News that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond engaging themselves to submit absolutely to the King's Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And hereupon he was sent back this was about a year before the going over of Cromwel In which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuntio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Sally out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arrived Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid executions in less than a twelvemonth that he stayed there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having killed or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton dyed there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorislaus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been employed in the drawing up of the Charge against the late King but the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber killed him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham one that had written in defence of his Masters was killed in the same manner About this time came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton an English Independent in answer to it B. I have seen them both They are very good Latin both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning hardly to be judged which is worse like two Declamations Pro and Con made for exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same Man So like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act which runs thus Be it enacted and declar'd by this present Parliament and by the Authority thereof That the People of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth Were the People no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any Forreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the People could have been cozned with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words You shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They banished also from within 20 Miles of London all the Royal Party forbidding also every one of them to depart more than five Miles from his Dwelling house B. They meant perhaps to have them ready if need were for a Massacre But what did the Scots in this time A. They were considering of the Officers of the Army which they were Levying for the King how they might exclude from Command all such as had loyally serv'd his Father and all Independents and all such as commanded in Duke Hamilton's Army and these were the main things that passed this year The Marquess of Montrosse that in the year 1645. had with a few men and in little time done things almost incredible against the late King's Enemies in Scotland landed now again in the beginning of the year 1650. in the North of Scotland with
great Clerk forgeteth the God of Nature and the main and principle Laws of Nature which contains a mans duty to his God and the principal end of his Creation T. H. After I had ended the discourse he mentions of the Laws of Nature I thought it fittest in the last place once for all to say they were the Laws of God then when they were delivered in the Word of God but before being not known by men for any thing but their own natural reason they were but Theorems tending to peace and those uncertain as being but conclusions of particular men and therefore not properly Laws Besides I had formerly in my Book De Cive cap. 4. proved them severally one by one out of the Scriptures which his Lordship had read and knew 'T was therefore an unjust charge of his to say I had not one word in them that concerns Religion or that hath the least relation in the world to God and this upon no other ground then that I added not to every article This Law is in the Scripture But why he should call me ironically a great Clerk I cannot tell I suppose he would make men believe I arrogated to my self all the learning of a great Clerk Bishop or other inferior Minister A Learned Bishop is that Bishop that can interpret all parts of Scripture truly and congruently to the harmony of the whole that has learnt the History and Laws of the Church down from the Apostles time to his own and knows what is the nature of a Law Civil Divine Natural and Positive and how to govern well the Parochial Ministers of his Diocess so that they may both by Doctrine and Example keep the people in the belief of all Articles of Faith necessary to Salvation and in obedience to the Laws of their Country This is a Learned Bishop A Learned Minister is he that hath learned the way by which men may be drawn from Avarice Pride Sensuality Prophaness Rebellious Principles and all other vices by eloquent and powerful disgracing them both from Scripture and from Reason and can terrify men from vice by discreet uttering of the punishments denounced against wicked men and by deducing rationally the dammage they receive by it in the end In one word he is a Learned Minister that can preach such Sermons as St. Chrisostome preached to the Antiochians when he was Presbyter in that City Could his Lordship find in my Book that I arrogated to my self the eloquence or wisdom of St. Chrisostom or the ability of governing the Church 'T is one thing to know what is to be done another thing to know how to do it But his Lordship was pleased to use any artifice to disgrace me in any kind whatsoever J. D. Perhaps he will say that he handleth the Laws of Nature there only so far as may serve to the constitution or settlement of a Common-wealth In good time let it be so He hath devised us a trim Common-wealth which is founded neither upon Religion towards God nor Justice towards Man but meerly upon self-interest and self-preservation Those raies of heavenly Light those natural seeds of Religion which God himself hath imprinted in the heart of man are more efficatious towards preservation of a Society whether we regard the nature of the thing or the blessing of God then all his Pacts and Surrenders and Translations of power He who unteacheth men their duty to God may make them Eye-servants so long as their interest doth oblige them to obey but is no fit Master to teach men conscience and fidelity T. H. He has not yet found the place where I contradict either the Existence or Infiniteness or Incomprehensibility or Unity or Ubiquity of God I am therefore yet absolved of Atheism But I am he says inconsistent and irreconcileable with my self that is I am though he says not so he thinks a forgetful blockhead I cannot help that But my forgetfulness appears not here Even his Lordship where he says Those raies of heavenly Light those seeds of Religion which God himself hath imprinted in the heart of man meaning natural reason are more efficacious to the preservation of Society than all the Pacts Surrenders and Translating of Power had forgotten to except the Old Pact of the Jews and the New Pact of Christians But pardoning that did he hope to make any wise man believe that when this Nation very lately was an Anarchy and dissolute multitude of men doing every one what his own reason or imprinted Light suggested did again out of that same Light call in the King and piece again and ask pardon for the faults which that their illumination had brought them into rather than out of fear of perpetual danger and hope of preservation J. D. Without Religion Societies are like but soapy bubbles quickly dissolved It was the judgment of as wise a man as T. H. himself though perhaps he will hardly be perswaded to it that Rome ought more of its grandeur to Religion than either to strength or stratagems We have not exceeded the Spaniards in number nor the Galls in strength nor the Carthaginians in craft nor the Grecians in art c. but we have overcome all Nations by our Piety and Religion T. H. Did not his Lordship forget himself here again in approving this sentence of Tully which makes the Idolatry of the Romans not only better than the Idolatry of other Nations but also better than the Religion of the Jews whose Law Christ himself says he came not to destroy but to fulfil And that the Romans overcame both them and other Nations by their Piety when it is manifest that the Romans overran the world by injustice and cruelty and that their Victories ought not to be ascribed to the Piety of the Romans but to the impiety as well of the Jews as of other Nations But what meant he by saying Tully was as wise a man as T. H. himself though perhaps he will hardly be perswaded to it Was that any part of the controversie No Then it was out of his way God promiseth to assist good men in their way but not out of their way 'T is therefore the less wonder that his Lordship was in this place deserted of the Light which God imprints in the hearts of rudest Savages J. D. Among his Laws he incerteth gratitude to men as the third precept of the Law of Nature but of the gratitude of mankind to their Creator there is a deep silence If men had sprung up from the earth in a night like Mushroms or Excresences without all sence of Honour Justice Conscience or Gratitude he could not have vilified the humane nature more then he doth T. H. My Lord discovers here an ignorance of such method as is necessary for lawful and strict reasoning and explication of the truth in controversie And not only that but also how little able he is to fix his mind upon what he reads in other mens Writings When I had defined
When his Miracles declared it when Pilate confessed it and when the Apostles Office was to Proclaim it Seventhly If we must not consider in points of Christian Faith who is the Soveraign Prophet that is who is next under Christ our Supream Head and Governor I wish his Lordship would have cleared ere he dyed these few Questions Is there not need of some Judge of Controverted Doctrines I think no man can deny it that has seen the Rebellion that followed the Controversie here between Gomar and Arminius There must therefore be a Judge of Doctrines But says the Bishop not the King Who then Shall Dr. Bramhall be this Judge As profitable an Office as it is he was more modest than to say that Shall a private Lay-man have it No man ever thought that Shall it be given to a Presbyterian Minister No 't is unreasonable Shall a Synod of Presbyterians have it No For most of the Presbyters in the Primitive Church were undoubtedly subordinate to Bishops and the rest were Bishops Who then A Synod of Bishops Very well His Lordship being too Modest to undertake the whole Power would have been contented with the six and twentieth part But suppose it in a Synod of Bishops who shall call them together The King What if he will not Who should Excommunicate him or if he despise your Excommunication who shall send forth a Writ of Significavit No all this was far from his Lordships thoughts The power of the Clergy unless it be upheld legally by the King or illegally by the Multitude amounts to nothing But for the Multitude Suarez and the School-men will never gain them because they are not understood Besides there be very few Bishops that can act a Sermon which is a puissant part of Rhetorick So well as divers Presbyterians and Phanatick Preachers can do I conclude therefore that his Lordship could not possibly believe that the Supream Judicature in matter of Religion could any where be so well placed as in the Head of the Church which is the King And so his Lordship and I think the same thing but because his Lordship knew not how to deduce it he was angry with me because I did it He says further that by my Principles he that blasphemeth Christ at Constantinople is a true Prophet as if a man that blasphemeth Christ to approve his Blasphemy can procure a Miracle for by my principles no Man is a Prophet whose Prophesie is not confirmed by God with a Miracle In the last place out of this That the lawful Soveraign is the Judge of Prophesie he deduces That then Samuel and other Prophets were false Prophets that contested with their Soveraigns As for Samuel he was at that time the Judge that is to say the Soveraign Prince in Israel and so acknowledged by Saul For Saul received the Kingdom from God himself who had right to give and take it by the hands of Samuel And God gave it him to himself only and not to his Seed though if he had obeyed God he would have setled it also upon his Seed The Commandement of God was that he should not spare Agag Saul obeyed not God therefore sent Samuel to tell him that he was rejected For all this Samuel went not about to resist Saul That he caused Agag to be slain was with Sauls consent Lastly Saul confesses his sin Where is this contesting with Saul After this God sent Samuel to anoint David not that he should depose Saul but succeed him the Sons of Saul having never had a right of Succession Nor did ever David make War on Saul or so much as resist him but fled from his persecution But when Saul was dead then indeed he claimed his right against the House of Saul What Rebellion or Resistance could his Lordship find here either in Samuel or in David Besides all these Transactions are supernatural and oblige not to imitation Is there any Prophet or Priest now that can set up in England Scotland or Ireland another King by pretence of Prophesie or Religion What did Jeroboam to the man of God 1 Kings 13 that Prophesied against the Altar in Bethel without first doing a Miracle but offer to seize him for speaking as he thought rashly of the Kings Act and after the Miraculous withering of his Hand desire the Prophet to pray for him The sin of Jeroboam was not his distrust of the Prophet but his Idolatry He was the sole Judge of the truth which the man of God uttered against the Altar and the process agreeable to equity What is the story of Eliah and Ahab 1 Kings 18. but a confirmation of the Right even of Ahab to be the Judge of Prophesie Eliah told Ahab he had transgressed the Commandement of God So may any Minister now tell his Soveraign so he do it with sincerity and discretion Ahab told Eliah he troubled Israel Upon this controversie Eliah desired Tryal Send saith he and Assemble all Israel Assemble also the Prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty Ahab did so The Question is stated before the People thus If the Lord be God follow him but if Baal follow him Then upon the Altars of God and Baal were laid the Wood and the Bullocks and the cause was to be Judged by Fire from Heaven to Burn the Sacrifices which Eliah procured the Prophets of Baal could not procure Was not this cause here Pleaded before Ahab The Sentence of Ahab is not required for Eliah from that time forward was no more persecuted by Ahab but only by his Wife Jezabel The story of Micaiah 2 Cron. 18. is this Ahab King of Israel consulted the Prophets four hundred in number whether he should prosper or not in case he went with Jehosaphat King of Judah to fight against the Syrians at Ramoth-gilead The Prophet Micaiah was also called and both the Kings Ahab and Jehosaphat sat together to hear what they should prophecy There was no Miracle done The 400 pronounced Victory Micaiah alone the contrary The King was Judge and most concern'd in the event nor had he received any Revelation in the business What could he do more discreetly than to follow the Counsel of 400 rather than of one Man But the event was contrary for he was slain but not for following the Counsel of the 400 but for his Murder of Naboth and his Idolatry It was also a sin in him that he afflicted Micaiah in Prison but an unjust Judgment does not take away from any King his right of Judicature Besides what 's all this or that of Jeremiah which he cites last to the Question of who is Judge of Christian Doctrine J. D. Neither doth he use God the Holy Ghost more favourably than God the Son Where St. Peter saith Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit He saith By the Spirit is meant the Voice of God in a Dream or Vision Supernatural which Dreams or Visions he maketh to be no more than imaginations which they
lawful for a man to value his own life or his limbs more than his God How much is he wiser than the three Children or Daniel himself who were thrown the first into a fiery Furnace the last into the Lions Denn because they refused to comply with the Idolatrous Decree of their Soveraign Prince T. H. Here also my words are truly cited But his Lordship understood not what the word Worship signifies and yet he knew what I meant by it To think highly of God as I had defined it is to honour him But to think is internal To Worship is to signifie that Honour which we inwardly give by signs external This understood as by his Lordship it was all he says to it is but a cavil J. D. A fourth Aphorism may be this That which is said in the Scripture it is better to obey God than man hath place in the Kingdom of God by Pact and not by Nature Why Nature it self doth teach us it is better to obey God than men Neither can he say that he intended this only of obedience in the use of indifferent actions and gestures in the service of God commanded by the Common-wealth for that is to obey both God and man But if divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is evermore better to obey God than man T. H. Here again appears his unskilfulness in reasoning Who denyes but it is alwayes and in all causes better to obey God than Man But there is no Law neither divine nor humane that ought to be taken for a Law till we know what it is and if a divine Law till we know that God hath commanded it to be kept We agree that the Scriptures are the Word of God But they are a Law by Pact that is to us who have been Baptized into the Covenant To all others it is an invitation only to their own benefit 'T is true that even nature suggesteth to us that the Law of God is to be obeyed rather than the Law of man But nature does not suggest to us that the Scripture is the Law of God much less how every Text of it ought to be interpreted But who then shall suggest this Dr. Bramhall I deny it Who then The stream of Divines Why so Am I that have the Scripture it self before my eyes obliged to venture my eternal life upon their interpretation how learned soever they pretend to be when no counter-security that they can give me will save me harmless If not the stream of Divines who then The lawful Assembly of Pastors or of Bishops But there can be no lawful Assembly in England without the Authority of the King The Scripture therefore what it is and how to be interpreted is made known unto us here by no other way than the Authority of our Soveraign Lord both in Temporals and Spirituals The Kings Majesty And where he has set forth no Interpretation there I am allowed to follow my own as well as any other man Bishop or not Bishop For my own part all that know me know also it is my opinion That the best government in Religion is by Episcopacy but in the King 's Right not in their own But my Lord of Derry not contented with this would have the utmost resolution of our Faith to be into the Doctrine of the Schools I do not think that all the Bishops be of his mind If they were I would wish them to stand in fear of that dreadful Sentence All covet all lose I must not let pass these words of his Lordship If divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is better evermore to obey God than man Where the King is a Christian believes the Scripture and hath the Legislative power both in Church and State and maketh no Laws concerning Christian Faith or divine Worship but by the Counsel of his Bishops whom he trusteth in that behalf if the Bishops counsel him aright what clashing can there be between the divine and humane Laws For if the Civil Law be against God's Law and the Bishops make it clearly appear to the King that it clasheth with divine Law no doubt he will mend it by himself or by the advice of his Parliament for else he is no professor of Christ's Doctrine and so the clashing is at an end But if they think that every opinion they hold though obscure and unnecessary to Salvation ought presently to be Law then there will be clashings innumerable not only of Laws but also of Swords as we have found it too true by late experience But his Lordship is still at this that there ought to be for the divine Laws that is to say for the interpretation of Scripture a Legislative power in the Church distinct from that of the King which under him they enjoy already This I deny Then for clashing between the Civil Laws of Infidels with the Law of God the Apostles teach that those their Civil Laws are to be obeyed but so as to keep their Faith in Christ entirely in their hearts which is an obedience easily performed But I do not believe that Augustus Caesar or Nero was bound to make the holy Scripture Law and yet unless they did so they could not attain to eternal life J. D. His fifth conclusion may be that the sharpest and most successful Sword in any War whatsoever doth give Soveraign Power and Authority to him that hath it to approve or reject all sorts of Theological Doctrines concerning the Kingdom of God not according to their truth or falshood but according to that influence which they have upon political affairs Hear him But because this Doctrine will appear to most men a novelty I do but propound it maintaining nothing in this or any other Paradox of Religion but attending the end of that dispute of the Sword concerning the Authority not yet amongst my Country-men decided by which all sorts of Doctrine are to be approved or rejected c. For the points of Doctrine concerning the Kingdom of God have so great influence upon the Kingdom of Man as not to be determined but by them that under God have the Soveraign Power Careat successibus opto Quisquis ab eventu facta notanda putat Let him evermore want success who thinketh actions are to be judged by their events This Doctrine may be plausible to those who desire to fish in troubled Waters But it is justly hated by those which are in Authority and all those who are lovers of peace and tranquillity The last part of this conclusion smelleth rankly of Jeroboam Now shall the Kingdom return to the house of David if this people go up to do Sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem whereupon the King took counsel and made two Calves of Gold and said unto them It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem behold thy Gods O Israel which brought thee out of the Land of Aegypt But by the
out of his Writings and present them to the Reader who will easily distinguish them from healthful Plants by the rankness of their smell Such are these which follow T. H. As for the following Posie of Flowers there wants no more to make them sweet than to wipe off the Venome blown upon some of them by his Lordships breath J. D. 1. To be delighted in the imagination only of being possessed of another man's Goods Servants or Wife without any intention to take them from him by force or fraud is no breach of the Law which saith Thou shalt not covet T. H. What man was there ever whose imagination of any thing he thought would please him was not some delight Or what sin is there where there is not so much as an intention to do injustice But his Lordship would not distinguish between delight and purpose nor between a Wish and a Will This was venome I believe that his Lordship himself even before he was Married took some delight in the thought of it and yet the Woman then was not his own All love is delight but all love is not sin Without this love of that which is not yet a mans own the World had not been Peopled J. D. 2. If a Man by the terror of present death be compelled to do a Fact against the Law he is totally excused because no Law can oblige a Man to abandon his own preservation nature compelleth him to the Fact The like Doctrine he hath elsewhere When the Actor doth any thing against the Law of Nature by the Command of the Author if he be obliged by former Covenants to obey him not he but the Author breaketh the Law of Nature T. H. The second Flower is both sweet and wholsom J. D. 3. It is a Doctrine repugnant to Civil Society that whatsoever a man does against his Conscience is sin T. H. 'T is plain that to do what a man thinks in his own Conscience to be sin is sin for it is a contempt of the Law it self and from thence ignorant men out of an erroneous Conscience disobey the Law which is pernicious to all Government J. D. 4. The Kingdom of God is not shut but to them that sin that is to them who have not performed due obedience to the Laws of God nor to them if they believe the necessary Articles of the Christian Faith 5. We must know that the true acknowledging of sin is Repentance it self 6. An opinion publickly appointed to be taught cannot be Heresie nor the Soveraign Princes that Authorised the same Hereticks T. H. The 4 th 5 th and 6 th smell well But to say that the Soveraign Prince in England is a Heretick or that an Act of Parliament is Heretical stinks abominably as 't was thought Primo Elizabethae J. D. 7. Temporal and Spiritual government are but two words to make men see double and mistake their lawful Soveraign c. There is no other Government in this Life neither of State nor Religion but Temporal 8. It is manifest that they who permit a contrary Doctrine to that which themselves believe and think necessary to Salvation do against their Consciences and Will as much as in them lyeth the eternal destruction of their Subjects T. H. The 7 th and 8 th are Roses and Jassamin But his leaving out the words to Salvation was venome J. D. 9. Subjects sin if they do not worship God according to the Laws of the Common-wealth T. H. The 9 th he hath poisoned and made it not mine he quotes my Book de Cive Cap. 15.19 Where I say Regnante Deo per solam rationem naturalem that is Before the Scripture was given they sinned that refused to worship God according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Country which hath no ill scent but to undutiful Subjects J. D. 10. To believe in Jesus in Jesum is the same as to believe that Jesus is Christ. T. H. And so it is always in the Scripture J. D. 11. There can be no contradiction between the Laws of God and the Laws of a Christian Common-wealth Yet we see Christian Common-wealths daily contradict one another T. H. The 11 th is also good But his Lordship's instance That Christian Common-wealths contradict one another have nothing to do here Their Laws do indeed contradict one another but contradict not the Law of God For God Commands their Subjects to obey them in all things and his Lordship himself confesseth that their Laws though erroneous bind the Conscience But Christian Common-wealths would seldome contradict one another if they made no Doctrine Law but such as were necessary to Salvation J. D. 12. No man giveth but with intention of some good to himself Of all voluntary Acts the Object is to every man his own good Moses St. Paul and the Decij were not of his mind T. H. That which his Lordship adds to the 12 th namely that Moses St. Paul and the Decij were not of my mind is false For the two former did what they did for a good to themselves which was eternal Life and the Decij for a good Fame after death And his Lordship also if he had believed there is an eternal happiness to come or thought a good Fame after death to be any thing worth he would have directed all his actions towards them and have despised the Wealth and Titles of the present World J. D. 13. There is no natural knowledge of man's estate after death much less of reward which is then to be given to breach of Faith but only a belief grounded upon other mens saying that they know it supernaturally or that they know those that knew them that knew others that knew it supernaturally T. H. The 13 th is good and fresh J. D. 14. David's killing of Uriah was no injury to Uriah because the right to do what he pleased was given him by Uriah himself T. H. David himself makes this good in saying To thee only have I sinned J. D. 15. To whom it belongeth to determine controversies which may arise from the divers interpretations of Scripture he hath an imperial power over all men which acknowledge the Scripture to be the Word of God 16. What is Theft what is Murder what is Adultery and universally what is an injury is known by the Civil Law that is by the Commands of the Soveraign T. H. For the 15 th he should have disputed it with the Head of the Church And as to the 16 th I would have asked him by what other Law his Lordship would have it determined what is Theft or what is Injury than by the Laws made in Parliament or by the Laws which distinguish between Meum and Tuum His Lordships ignorance smells rankly 't is his own phrase in this and many other places which I have let pass of his own Interest The King tells us what is sin in that he tells us what is Law He hath authorised the Clergy to dehort the people
General Councils the Power of the Roman Church grew up a pace and either by the negligence or weakness of the succeeding Emperors the Pope did what he pleased in Religion There was no Doctrine which tended to the Power Ecclesiastical or to the Reverence of the Clergy the contradiction whereof was not by one Council or another made Heresie and punished arbitrarily by the Emperors with Banishment or Death And at last Kings themselves and Commonwealths unless they purged their Dominions of Hereticks were Excommunicated Interdicted and their Subjects let loose upon them by the Pope insomuch as to an ingenuous and serious Christian there was nothing so dangerous as to enquire concerning his own Salvation of the Holy Scripture the careless cold Christian was safe and the skilful Hypocrite a Saint But this is a Story so well known as I need not insist upon it any longer but proceed to the Hereticks here in England and what Punishments were ordained for them by Acts of Parliament All this while the Penal Laws against Hereticks were such as the several Princes and States in their own Dominions thought fit to enact The Edicts of the Emperors made their Punishments Capital but for the manner of the Execution left it to the Prefects of Provinces And when other Kings and States intended according to the Laws of the Roman Church to extirpate Hereticks they ordained such Punishment as they pleased The first Law that was here made for the punishments of Hereticks called Lollards and mentioned in the Statutes was in the fifth year of the Reign of Richard the Second occasioned by the Doctrine of John Wickliff and his Followers which Wickliff because no Law was yet ordained for his punishment in Parliament by the favour of John of Gaunt the King's Son during the Reign of Edward the third had escaped But in the fifth year of the next King which was Richard the Second there passed an Act of Parliament to this effect That Sheriffs and some others should have Commissions to apprehend such as were certified by the Prelates to be Preachers of Heresie their Fautors Maintainers and Abettors and to hold them in strong Prison till they should justifie themselves according to the Law of Holy Church So that hitherto there was no Law in England by which a Heretick could be put to Death or otherways punished than by imprisoning him till he was reconciled to the Church After this in the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fourth Son of John of Gaunt by whom Wickliffe had been favoured and who in his aspiring to the Crown had needed the good Will of the Bishops was made a Law in the second Year of his Reign wherein it was Enacted That every Ordinary may convene before him and imprison any person suspected of Heresie and that an obstinate Heretick shall be burnt before the People In the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fifth in his Second year was made an Act of Parliament wherein it is declared that the intent of Hereticks called Lollards was to subvert the Christian Faith the Law of God the Church and the Realm And that an Heretick convict should forfeit all his Fee-simple Lands Goods and Chattels besides the Punishment of Burning Again in the Five and Twentieth year of King Henry the Eighth it was Enacted That an Heretick convict shall abjure his Heresies and refusing so to do or relapsing shall be burnt in open place for example of others This Act was made after the putting down of the Pope's Authority And by this it appears that King Henry the Eighth intended no farther alteration in Religion than the recovering of his own Right Ecclesiastical But in the first year of his Son King Edward the sixth was made an Act by which were repealed not only this Act but also all former Acts concerning Doctrines or matters of Religion So that at this time there was no Law at all for the punishment of Hereticks Again in the Parliament of the first and second year of Queen Mary this Act of 1 Ed. 6. was not repealed but made useless by reviving the Statute of 25 Hen. 8. and freely put it in execution insomuch as it was Debated Whether or no they should proceed upon that Statute against the Lady Elizabeth the Queens Sister The Lady Elizabeth not long after by the Death of Queen Mary coming to the Crown in the fifth year of her Reign by Act of Parliament repealed in the first place all the Laws Ecclesiastical of Queen Mary with all other former Laws concerning the punishments of Hereticks nor did she enact any other punishments in their place In the second place it was Enacted That the Queen by her Letters Patents should give a Commission to the Bishops with certain other persons in her Majesties Name to execute the Power Ecclesiastical in which Commission the Commissioners were forbidden to adjudge any thing to be Heresie which was not declared to be Heresie by some of the first four General Councels But there was no mention made of General Councels but only in that branch of the Act which Authorised that Commission commonly called The High Commission nor was there in that Commission any thing concerning how Hereticks were to be punished but it was granted to them that they might declare or not declare as they pleased to be Heresie or not Heresie any of those Doctrines which had been Condemned for Heresie in the first four General Councels So that during the time that the said High Commission was in being there was no Statute by which a Heretick could be punished otherways than by the ordinary Censures of the Church nor Doctrine accounted Heresie unless the Commissioners had actually declared and published That all that which was made Heresie by those Four Councels should be Heresie also now But I never heard that any such Declaration was made either by Proclamation or by Recording it in Churches or by publick Printing as in penal Laws is necessary the breaches of it are excused by ignorance Besides if Heresie had been made Capital or otherwise civilly punishable either the Four General Councels themselves or at least the Points condemned in them ought to have been Printed or put into Parish Churches in English because without it no man could know how to beware of offending against them Some men may perhaps ask whether no body were Condemned and Burnt for Heresie during the time of the High Commission I have heard there were But they which approve such executions may peradventure know better grounds for them than I do but those grounds are very well worthy to be enquired after Lastly in the seventeenth year of the Reign of King Charles the First shortly after that the Scots had Rebelliously put down the Episcopal Government in Scotland the Presbyterians of England endeavoured the same here The King though he saw the Rebels ready to take the Field would not condescend to that but yet in hope to appease them was content to pass an