others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their fellow-Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to
own use What said the People to that A. What else but that it was legal and to be paid as being Imposed by consent of Parliament B. I have heard often that they ought to pay what was imposed by consent of Parliament to the use of the King but to their own use never before I see by this it is easier to gull the multitude than any one man amongst them for what one man that has his Natural Judgment depraved by accident could be so easily cousened in a matter that concerns his Purse had he not been passionately carried away by the rest to change of Government or rather to a Liberty of every one to Govern himself A. Judge then what kind of men such a multitude of Ignorant People were like to elect for the Burgeses and Knights of Shires B. I can make no other Judgment but that they who were then elected were just such as had been elected for former Parliaments and as are like to be elected for Parliaments to come for the Common people have been and always will be ignorant of their Duty to the Publick as never meditating any thing but their particular Interest in other things following their immediate Leaders which are either the Preachers or the most potent of the Gentlemen that dwell amongst them as Common Souldiers for the most part follow their Captains if they like them If you think the late miseries have made them wiser that will quickly be forgot and then we shall be no wiser than we were A. Why may not men be taught their Duty that is the Science of Just and Unjust as divers other Sciences have been taught from true Principles and Demonstrations and much more easily than any of those Preachers and Democratical Gent. could Rebellion and Treason B. But who can teach what none have learned or if any Man hath been so singular as to have studied the Science of Justice and Equity how can he teach it safely when it is against the Interest of those that are in possession of the Power to hurt him A. The Rules of the Just and Unjust sufficiently demonstrated and from Principles evident to the meanest capacity have not been wanting and notwithstanding the obscurity of their Author have shined not only in this but in forreign Countries to men of good Education but they are few in respect of the rest of men whereof many cannot read many though they can have no leasure and of them that have leasure the greatest part have their minds wholly imployed and taken up by their private businesses or pleasures so that it is impossible that the Multitude should ever learn their Duty but from the Pulpit and upon Holy-dayes but then and from thence it is that they learned their Disobedience and therefore the light of that Doctrine has been hitherto coverred and kept under hereby a cloud of adversaries which no private man's reputation can break through without the Authority of the Universities but from the Universities came all those Preachers that taught the contrary The Universities have been to this Nation as the Wooden-Horse was to the Trojans B. Can you tell me why and when the Universities here first began A. It seems for the time they began in the Reign of the Emperour Charles the Great before which time I doubt not but there were many Grammar Schools for the Latine Tongue which was the Natural Language of the Roman Church but for Universities that is to say Schools for the Science in general and especially for Divinity it is manifest that the Institution of them was recommended by the Pope's Letter to the Emperor Charles the great and recommended farther by a Council held in his time I think at Chal. sur Saone and not long after was erected an University at Paris and the Colledge called University Colledge at Oxford and so by degrees several Bishops Noblemen and Rich men and some Kings and Queens contributing thereunto the Universities at last obtained their present Splendor B. But what was the Pope's designe in it A. What other design was he like to have but what you heard before the advancement oâ— his own Authority in the Countries where the Universities were erected There they learned to Dispute for him and with unintelligible Distinctions to blind mens Eyes whilst they encroached upon the Rights of Kings and it was an evident Argument of that Design that they fell in hand with the work so quickly for the first Rector of the University of Paris as I have read some where was Peter Lombard who fiâ—st brought it to them the Learning called School Divinity and was seconded by John Scot of Duns who lived in or near the same time whom any Ingenious Reader not knowing what was the design would judge to have been the most egregious Blockhead in the world so obscure and senseless are their Writings And from these the School-men that succeeded learnt the trick of Imposing what they list upon their Readers and declining the force of true Reason by verbal Forks I mean distinctions that signify nothing but serve only to astonish the multitude of ignorant men as for the understanding Readers they were so few that these new sublime Doctors cared not what they thought these School men were to make good all the Articles of Faith which the Pope from time to time should command to be believed Amongst which there were very many inconsistent with the Rights of Kings and other Civil Soveraigns as asserting to the Pope all Authority whatsoever they should declare to be necessary in ordine ad Spiritualia that is to say In order to Religion From the Universities also it was that Preachers proceeded and were poured out into City and Country to terrify the People into an absolute Obedience to the Pope's Canons and Commands which for fear of wakening Kings and Princes too much they durst not yet call them Laws From the Universities it was that the Phylosophy of Aristotle was made an Ingredient to Religion as serving for a Salve to a great many absurd Articles concerning the Nature of Christs Body and the State of Angels and Saints in Heaven which Articles they thought fit to have believ'd because they bring some of them profit and others Reverence to the Clergy even to the meanest of them for when they shall have made the People believe that the meanest of them can make the Body of Christ Who is there that will not both shew them Reverence and be Liberal to them or to the Church especially in the time of their sickness when they think they make and bring to them their Saviour B. But what advantage to them in these Impostures was the Doctrine of Aristotle A. They have made more use of his Obscurity than his Doctrine for none of the Ancient Phylosophers Writings are Comparable to those of Aristotle for their aptness to puzzle and entangle men with words and to breed Disputation which must at last be ended in the Determination of the Church
in the mean time a Resolution to obey the Kings Laws which are also Gods Laws to injure no man to be in charity with all Men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live Soberly and free from scanal without mingling our Religion with points of Natural Phylosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal substance Everlasting News Ubiquities Hypostases Which the people understand not nor will ever care for when the Universities shall be thus disciplined there will come out of them from time to time well Principled Preachers and they that are ill Principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant for if Men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey the Laws an Army you l say But what shall force the Army were not the Train'd Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not very long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that Men may be brought to a love of Obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting peace till the Universities themselves be in such manner as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the supream Civil Power gives them and the Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an Exemption from the Laws of their own Countrey whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarchy but an Exemption from the constraint and Insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this Point I will bring you back to the place from whence my Curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the point of Ship-money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyranny and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you called it the King from his Subjects and to make a party aginst him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our discourse of this business and refer it to some other Day that you shall think fit B. Content that Day I believe is not far off A. You are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer my money would have been so much the better provided for you B. Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content to take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the People believe that the Extorting of Ship-money was unlawful and the people thereby inclind to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase there disaffection to his Majesty they accused him of a purpose to introduce and Authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom than which nothing was more hateful to the People not because it was Erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to hear it inveyed against in the Sermons and discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual callumny to alienate the Peoples affections from him that could possibly be invented the colour they had for this stand was First that there was one Rosseti Resident at and a little before the time from the Pope with the Queen And one Mr. George Consecretary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbarini Nephew to Pope Urban the Eighth sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceived to draw as many persons of quality about the Court as he should be Able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell But 〈◊〉 likely he gained some especially of the weaker Sex If I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a Conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There was exception also taken at a Covent of Fryers Capucines in Summerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jesuits also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clarkenwel and in the mean time the Principal Secretary Sir Francis windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuits that had been taken and imprisoned for returning into England after Banishment contrary to the statute which had made it Capital also the resort of English Catholicks to the Queens-Chappel gave them Colour to blame the Queen herself not only for that but also for all the favours that had been shown to the Catholicks insomuch that some of them did not stick to say openly that the King was Governed by her B. Strange Injustice The Queen was a Cathâ—lick by profession and therefore could not but endeavour to do the Catholicks all the good she could she had not else been truely that which she professed to be but it seems they meant to force her to Hypocrisy being Hypocrites themselves Can any man think it a crime in a Devout Lady of what Sect soever to seek Favour and Benediction of that Church whereof she is a Member A. To give the Parliament another Colour for their Accusation on foot for the King as to introducing of Popery there was a great Controversy between the Episcopal and Presbyterian Clergy about Free-will The Dispute began first in the Low-Countries between Gomar and Arminius in the time of King James who foreseeing it might trouble the Church of England did what he could to compose the difference an Assembly of Divines was thereupon got together at Dort to which also King James sent a Divine or two but it came to nothing the question was left undecided and became a Subject to be disputed of in the Universities here all the Presbyterians were of the same mind with Gomar but a very great many others not and those were called here Arminians who because the Doctrine of Free-will had been exploded as Papistical and because the Presbyterians were far the greater number and already in favour with the People they were generally hated it was easy therefore for the Parliament to make that Calumny pass currently with the People when the Arch Bishop of Canterbury Dr. Laud was for Arminius and had a little before by his Power Ecclesiastical forbidden all Ministers to Preach to the People of Predestination and when all Ministers that were gracious with him and hoped for any Church-preferment fell to Preaching and Writing for Free-will to the uttermost of their Power as a proof of their Abillity and Merit Besides they gave out some of them that the Arch-Bishop was in heart a Papist and in case he could effect here a Tolleration of the Roman Religion to have a Cardinal's Hat
Laws and of inflicting Punishments then him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Coaction or otherwise Punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for Punishing can there be a greater then Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell then the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very Uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that dye Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day Do you not think them also Damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for Disobedience to the Kings Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for Sin and therefore if he Dye Excommunicate and without desire of Reconciliation he Dies Impenitent you see what follows But to Dye in Disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite an other Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to Depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of there Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without Passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the Old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoâ—â—ks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same Relation to the power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the power Temporal and is sutably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a power Spiritual and Dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as Hereticks for else not only men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresy is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresy but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresy by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4. General Counsels or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresy by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scripures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresy by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresy many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresy without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresy neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a Man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Councel can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councels have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Counsel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Mâ—cedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Counsel assembled at Ephesus condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ. The Fourth held at Calcodon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ. I know of no other Points condemned in these 4 Counsels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Counsels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Counsels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Counsel and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now conferred a Legislative Power on the Counsels not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian. A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must be the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryâ—r told
it is for a State to have their Subjects confess their secret thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit Sins absolutely but only with a condition of Repentance yet the people were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent Sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was performed in the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a point very difficult for a man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was Transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insist upon the dulness not only of common people but also of Kings and their Councelors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviours Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Pope's Authority they had many fine points in their Ecclesiastical Policy conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time for then it was the Order came up of Preaching-Friars that wandred up and down with power to Preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the people nothing that might lessen their obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak judgments confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or works of Piety and necessary for the remission of their Sins B. I do not remember that I read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private man to call the people together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendom I believe the Heathen K. foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the Preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the people and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperour Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Phylosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperour by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latine Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monastries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Dicipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easy to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the Maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Phylosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then what was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in
France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisy of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Shorthand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democraâ—ical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the world And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his Power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his Power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas beâ—â—â— the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express Licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to
go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so what other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latine and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the Disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and Governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not onely the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the Concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church Government Canons and Common Prayer Book so did the other make them in love with Democracie by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourse and Communication with people in the Country continnually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyrany leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyrany was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less Learned And the Gentlemen envying the Privy Council whom they thought less wise than themselves for 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any Ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politick of the Ancient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not Publickly Preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Fryers had formerly done upon working days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a likeing of their Doctrines and good Opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching They so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have Acted the part of a right godly man better then these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any Ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the Vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to Despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the Anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them then to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther
every Man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like points are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans Duty to obey him or them that have the Sovereign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with arguments for liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Câ—cero Seâ—ica and 〈◊〉 of the Histories of 〈…〉 for their disputation against the 〈…〉 power of their 〈…〉 therefore I dispare of any 〈…〉 our selves till the 〈…〉 their studies to the 〈…〉 obedience to the Laws of the 〈…〉 to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory can do over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of state as is necessary for the Business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry the 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are Govern'd and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferiour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the hands of Popes Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergie B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or purses when they shal be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The 2 Great vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7 was without much noise of the people to â—ill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks me thinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchirstian and unhuman design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Aâ—tual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true poliâ—icks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey aâ— Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd suâ—â— as are fit to make Men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them to make Men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the â—ing and that no Man has Title to Govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to God onlâ— and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting â—or the coming again of our blessed Saviour and
Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Antient Authors that speake of the formes of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancesters the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Arguments of Right but only examples of fact which by the Ambition of Potent Subjects have been oftner unjust then otherwise and for those Saxons or Angels that in Antient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of Divers Petty German Lords and states such as was the Graecian Army in the Trojan War without other Obligations than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness nor were these Lords for the most part the soveraigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity that when they had conquer'd any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof the rest should have greater Priviledges than the Common People and Souldiers amongst which Priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Council with him that hath the Soveraignty in matters of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Soveraign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the Kings Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those honours and places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of Discreet and Wise men of the Kingdom and hear their Councils and make them Judges of all Causes that during their Sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever at his pleasure power to Dissolve them The Normans also that Descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this Priviledge have the Lords to be of your Kings great Council and when they were assembled to be the highest of the Kings Court of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only name of Baron a name receiv'd from the Antient Gauls amongst whom that name signified the King's Man or rather one of his great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Council when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's great Council A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some Discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Council though they were not Lords But that is nothing to the House of Commons the Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the mis behaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time of Henry the third the Lords were Descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France But after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue fail'd Titularly only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being bound no longer to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Council And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased But I do not find that they were part of the Kings Council at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other But I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for Redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Souldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castle whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had Designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently lest it to the Chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got togeter a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The Manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a Change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in
and the treacherous divisions growing now among themselves had driven them to relie upon the fortune of one day in which at Naseby the King's Army was utterly overthrown and no hope left Him to raise another therefore after the Battel he went up and down doing the Parliament here and there some shrewd turns but never much increasing His number Fairfax in the mean time first recovered Leicester and then marching into the West subdued it all except only a few places forcing with much ado my Lord Hopton upon honorable Conditions to disband his Army and with the Prince of Wales to pass over to Scilly whence not long after they went to Paris In April 1646. General Fairfax began to march back to Oxford in the mean time Rainsburrough who besieged Woodstock had it surrender'd The King therefore who was now also return'd to Oxford from whence Woodstock is but six miles not doubting but that He should there by Fairfax be besieg'd and having no Army to relieve Him resolv'd to get away disguised to the Scotch Army about Newark and thither he came the 4th of May and the Scotch Army being upon remove homewards carried Him with them to Newcastle whither He came May the 13th B. Why did the King trust Himself with the Scots They were the first that Rebell'd They were Presbyterians i. e. cruel Besides they were indigent and consequently might be suspected would sell Him to His Enemies for money And lastly They were too weak to defend Him or keep Him in their Countrey A. What could He have done better for He had in the Winter before sent to the Parliament to get a Pass for the Duke of Richmond and others to bring them Propositions of Peace it was denied He sent again it was denied again Then He desir'd He might come to them in Person this also was denied He sent again and again to the same purpose but instead of granting it they made an Ordinance That the Commanders of the Militia of London in the case the King should attempt to come within the Line of Communication should raise what Force they thought fit to suppress Tumults to apprehend such as came with Him and to secure i. e. to imprison His Person from danger If the King had adventur'd to come and had been imprison'd what would the Parliament have done with Him They had dethron'd Him by their Votes and therefore could have no security while He liv'd though in Prison it may be they would not have put Him to death by a High Court of Justice publickly but secretly some other way B. He should have attempted to get beyond Sea A. That had been from Oxford very difficult Besides it was generally believ'd that the Scotch Army had promis'd Him that not only His Majesty but also His Friends that should come with Him should be in their Army safe not only for their Persons but also for their Honours and Consciences 'T is a pretty Trick when the Army and the particular Soldiers of that Army are different things to make the Soldiers promise what the Army means not to perform July 11. the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at Newcastle which Propositions they pretended to be the onely way to a setled and well-grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir Walter Earl Sir John Hyppesley Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked If they had power to Treat And when they said No why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The Propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some Exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis and so at last the bargain was made between them and upon payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive Him B. What a vile Complexion hath this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very Covetousness Cowardize Perjury and Treachery A. Now the War that seemed so just by many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing in these Rebels but Baseness and Falseness besides their Folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest â—f the King's Garisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by Order from His Majesty for a time which by divisions by the Irish was ill kept The Popish Party the Pope's Nuncio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English besides the time of the Peace was now expir'd B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. The distinction is somewhat too subtile for common understanding In Scotland the Marquis of Montross for the King with a very few Men had miraculously with Victories over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to flie back into the High-lands to recruit where he began to recover strength when the King commanded him being then in the hands of the Scots at Newcastle to disband and he departed from Scotland by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the King's great Seal to be broken Also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also dyed the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was Peace in England and the King in Prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a Game at Cards without fighting all the years 1647. and 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry VIII abolished the Pope's Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas the Pope before allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the Divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the
Papacy set up Presbyteries for the Government of thier several Churches and divers English Scholars that went beyond Sea during the Persecution of Queen Mary were much taken with this Government and at their return in the time of Queen Elizabeth and ever since have endeavor'd to the great trouble of the Church and Nation to set up that Government here wherein they might domineer and applaud their own Wit and Learning And these took upon them not only a Divine Right but also a Divine Inspiration and having been connived at and countenanced sometimes in their frequent Preaching they introduced many strange and many pernicious Doctrines out-doing the Reformation as they pretended both of Luther and Calvin receding from the former Divinity or Church-Philosophy for Religion is another thing as much as Luther and Calvin had receded from the Pope and distracted their Auditors into a great number of Sects as Brownists Anabaptists Independents Fifth-Monarchy Men Quakers and divers others all commonly called by the name of Fanaticks insomuch as there was no so dangerous an Enemy to the Presbyterians as this Brood of their own hatchingâ— These were Cromwel's best Cards whereof he had a very great number in the Army and some in the house whereof he himself was thought one though he were nothing certain but applying himself always to the Faction that was strongest was of a colour like it There was in the Army a great number if not the part that aimed only at Rapine and sharing the Lands and Goods of their Enemies and these also upon the opinion they had of Cromwel's Valor and Conduct thought they could not any way better arrive at their Ends than by adhering to him Lastly In the Parliament it self though not the major part yet a considerable number were Fanaticks enough to put in doubts and cause delay in the Resolutions of the House and sometimes also by advantages of a thin House to carry a Vote in favour of Gromwel as they did upon the 26th of July for whereas on the 4th of May precedent the Parliament had Voted That the Militia of London should be in the hands of a Committee of Citizens whereof the Lord Mayor or the time being should be one Shortly after the Independents chancing to be the major made an Ordinance whereby it was put into hands more favourable to the Army The best Cards the Parliament had were the City of London and the Person of the King The General Sir Thomas Fairfax was right Presbyterian but in the hands of the Army and the Army in the hands of Cromwel but which Party should prevail depended on playing of the Game Cromwel protested still Obedience and Fidelity to the Parliament but meaning nothing less bethought him and resolv'd on a way to excuse himself of all that he should do to the contrary upon the Army therefore he and his Son-in-law Commissary General Ireton as good at contriving as himself and at speaking and writing better contrive how to mutiny the Army against the Parliament To this end they spread a whisper through the Army that the Parliament now they had the King intended to disband them to cheat them of their Arrears and to send them into Ireland to be destroy'd by the Irish. The Army being herewith inrag'd were taught by Ireton to erect a Council among themselves of two Soldiers out of every Troop and every Company to consult for the good of the Army and to assist at the Council of War and to advise for the Peace and Safety of the Kingdom These were called Adjutators so that whatsoever Cromwel would have to be done he needed nothing to make them to do it but secretly to put it into the head of these Adjutators the effect of the first Consultation was to take the King from Holmeby and to bring him to the Army The General hereupon by Letters to the Parliament excuses himself and Cromwel and the Body of the Army as ignorant of the Fact and that the King came away willingly with those Soldiers that brought Him assuring them withall That the whole Army intended nothing but Peace nor opposed Presbytery nor affected Independency nor did hold any licentious freedom in Religion B. 'T is strange that Sir Thomas Fairfax could be so abused by Cromwel as to believe this which he himself here writes A. I cannot believe that Cornet Joyce could go out of the Army with 1000 Soldiers to fetch the King and neither the General nor the Lieutenant-General nor the Body of the Army take notice of it and that the King went willingly appears to be false by a Message sent on purpose from His Majesty to the Parliament B. Here is Perfidy upon Perfidy first the Perfidy of the Parliament against the King and then the Perfidy of the Army against the Parliament A. This was the first Trick Cromwel play'd whereby he thought himself to have gotten so great an advantage that he said openly That he had the Parliament in his Pocket as indeed he had and the City too For upon the news of it they were both the one and the other in very great disorder and the more because there came with it a Rumor that the Army was marching up to London The King in the mean time till his Residence was setled at Hampton Court was carried from place to place not without some ostentation but with much more Liberty and with more Respect shewn Him by far than when He was in the hands of the Parliaments Commissioners for His own Chaplains were allow'd Him and His Children and some Friends permitted to see Him besides that He was much Complimented by Cromwel who promised Him in a serious and seeming passionate manner to restore Him to His Right against the Parliament B. How was he sure he could do that A. He was not sure but he was resolv'd to march up to the City and Parliament to set up the King again and be the second Man unless in the attempt he found better hopes than yet he had to make himself the first Man by dispossessing the King B. What assistance against the Parliament and the City could Cromwel expect from the King A. By declaring directly for Him he might have had all the King's Party which were many more now since His misfortune than ever they were before for in the Parliament it self there were many that had discover'd the hypocrisie and private aims of their Fellows Many were converted to their Duty by their own natural Reason and their Compassion for the King's Sufferings had begot generally an Indignation against the Parliament so that if they had been by the protection of the present Army brought together and embodied Cromwel might have done what he pleas'd in the first place for the King and in the second for himself but it seems he meant first to try what he could do without the King and if that prov'd enough to rid his hands of him B. What did the Parliament and City do to oppose the
therefore they might govern well enough if they had honesty and wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by violence for the procuring of an Ordinance for the Kings Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an impediment to their future designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in regard of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly that was their principal end B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs chuse others in their places A. They could not do that without Order from the House After this they constituted a Council of forty persons which they termed a Council of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the businesses of the Common-wealth with whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what Name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being Venerable among the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetned Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Title they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tyed to the Laws can have more liberty in one form of Government than another A. Howsoever to the people that understand by Liberty nothing but leave to do what they list it was a Title not ingrateful Their next work was to set forth a publick Declaration that they were fully resolv'd to maintain the Fundamental Laws of the Nation as to the preservation of the Lives Liberties and Proprieties of the people B. What did they mean by the Fundamental Laws of the Nation A. Nothing but to abuse the people for the only Fundamental Law in every Commonwealth is to obey the Laws from time to time which he shall make to whom the People have given the Supreme Power How likely then are they to uphold the Fundamental Laws that had murdered him who was by themselves so often acknowledged their lawful Soveraign Besides at the same time that this Declaration came forth they were erecting the High Court of Justice which took away the lives of Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland and the Lord Capel whatsoever they meant by a Fundamentall Law the erecting of this Court was a breach of it as being warranted by no former Law or Example in England At the same time also they levied Taxes by Souldiers and permitted Free Quarter to them and did many other Actions which if the King had done they would have said had been done against the Liberty and Propriety of the Subject B. What silly things are the common sort of people to be cozen'd as they were so grosly A. What sort of people as to this matter are not of the common sort the craftiest Knaves of all the Rump were no wiser than the rest whom they cozen'd for the most of them did believe that the same things which they impos'd upon the generality were just and reasonable and especially the great Haranguers and such as pretended to Learning for who can be a good Subject in a Monarchy whose Principles are taken from the Enemies of Monarchy such as were Cicero Seneca Cato and other Polititians of Rome and Aristotle of Athens who spake of Kings but as Wolves and other ravenous Beasts You may perhaps think a man has need of nothing else to know the duty he owes to his Governour and what right he has to order him but a good Natural Wit But it is otherwise for it is a Science and built upon sure and clear Principles and to be learn'd by deep and careful study or from Masters that have deeply studied it And who was there in the Parliament or in the Nation that could find out those evident Principles and derive from thence the necessary Rules of Justice and the necessary Connexion of Justice and Peace The people have one day in seven the leisure to hear Instructions and there are Ministers appointed to teach them their duty But how have these Ministers perform'd their Office A great part of them namely the Presbyterian Ministers throughout the whole War instigated the people against the King so did also Independent and other fanatick Ministers The rest contented with their Livings preached in their Parishes points of Controversie to Religion importinent but to the breach of Charity among themselves very effectual or else Eloquent things which the people either understood not or thought themselves not concern'd in But this sort of Preachers as they did little good so they did little hurt the mischief proceeded wholly from the Presbyterian Preachers who by a long practis'd Histrionick Faculty preached up the Rebellion powerfully B. To what end A. To the end that the State becoming popular the Church might be so too and govern'd by an Assembly and consequently as they thought seeing Politicks are subservient to Religion they might govern and thereby satisfie their covetous humour with Riches and also their malice with Power to undo all men that admir'd not their wisdom Your calling the people silly things oblig'd me by this digression to shew you that it is not want of Wit but want of the Science of Justice that brought them into these troubles Perswade if you can that man that has made his Fortune or made it greater or an Eloquent Orator or a ravishing Poet or a subtil Lawyer or but a good Hunter or a cunning Gamester that he has not a good Wit and yet there were of all these a great many so silly as to be deceived by the Rump They wanted not wit but the knowledge of the Causes and grounds upon which one person has a right to govern and the rest an obligation to obey which grounds are necessary to be taught the people who without them cannot live long in peace among themselves B. Let us return if you please to the proceedings of the Rump A. In the rest of the year they voted a new Stamp for the Coyn of this Nation They considered also of Agents to be sent into foreign parts and having lately receiv'd Applause from the Army for their work done by the High Court of Justice and encouragement to extend the same farther they perfected the said High Court of Justice in which were tryed Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland
the Lord Capel the Earl of Norwich and Sir John Owen whereof as I mention'd before the first three were beheaded This affrighted divers of the Kings Party out of the Land for not only they but all that had born Arms for the King were at that time in very great danger of their lives for it was put to the question by the Army at a Council of War whether they should be all massacred or no where the No's carried it but by two Voices Lastly March 24. they put the Mayor of London out of his Office fined him two thousand pound disfranchised him and condemn'd him to two Months imprisonment in the Tower for refusing to proclaim the Act for abolishing of the Kingly Power And thus ended the year 1648. and the Monthly Fast God having granted that which they fasted for the Death of the King and the possession of his Inheritance By these their proceedings they had already lost the hearts of the generality of the people and had nothing to trust to but the Army which was not in their power but in Cromwel's who never fail'd when there was occasion to put them upon all Exploits that might make them odious to the people in order to his future dissolving them whensoever it should conduce to his ends In the beginning of 1649. the Scots discontented with the proceedings of the Rump against the late King began to levy Souldiers in order to a new Invasion of England The Irish Rebels for want of timely resistance from England were grown terrible and the English Army at home infected by the Adjutators began to cast about how to share the Land among the Godly meaning themselves and such others as they pleas'd who were therefore called Levellers Also the Rump for the present were not very well provided of Money and therefore the first thing they did was the laying of a Tax upon the people of ninety thousand pound a Month for the Maintenance of the Army B. Was it not one of their Quarrels with the King that he had levied Money without the consent of the people in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the peoples consent and consequently legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from ingaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they call'd it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of seventeen thousand Foot and six thousand Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolv'd to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army in England This happened well for Cromwel for the Levelling Souldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that instead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Colonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon remov'd Thus done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London feasted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters then Doctors A. They had made themselves Masters already both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Doctor Cromwel entituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the Kings Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy among themselves and those Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanriccard and my Lord Inchequin so that they were the greatest United Strength in the Island but there were among them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuncio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it to preserve the place for the Protestants surrenders it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at this time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the news that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond ingaging themselves to submit absolutely to the Kings Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And thereupon he was sent back This was about a year before the going over of Cromwel in which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuncio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient Power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Salley out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arriv'd Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid Executions in less than a Twelvemonth that he staid there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having kill'd or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton died there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's Exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorislaus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been imployed in the drawing of the Charge against the late King But the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber kill'd him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham that had written in defence of his Masters was kill'd in the same manner About this time came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton