Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	king_n	law_n	parliament_n	7,328	5	6.6868	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A83501	Reasons against the independant government of particular congregations: as also against the toleration of such churches to be erected in this kingdome. Together with an answer to such reasons as are commonly alledged for such a toleration. Presented in all humility to the Honourable House of Commons, now assembled in Parliament. By Tho. Edvvards, minister of the Gospel.	Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647.; England and Wales. Parliament.	1641 (1641)	Wing E233; Thomason E167_16; ESTC R21753	47,020	78

of them and enter into Covenant among themselves and be a Church and live without Ministers and Sacraments along time upon pretence that they can finde none fit for them yet as these Independant men doe and when they doe chuse then chuse such of their owne opinions and wayes and so they may live together at liberty in ways pleasing themselves neither can this helpe it to say this belongs onely to Saints 't is their Prerogative Royall and not others for all Heretickes Sectaries or Libertines will count themselves Saints as well as our Independant men they may be their owne Judges and will say that they are Saints as well as you say for the Ministers and Magistrates of the Kingdome shall not have the power to determine who be Saints and who not so that if the State should tolerate the Independancie they know not what they tolerate but in the belly of this Independancie they tolerate and make way for Libertinisme Heresie and what ever Satan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach and fall into Reason X. I Propound this question what these men would have in this toleration whether the number of these Independant Congregations that they would have tolerated should be five or six Congregations onely and no more or shall the number be left undetermined to bee free to multiply into as many Churches as they please if the number must be determined this will overthrow their principles and Churches quickely as when one Church breakes into two or three as upon their principles it must and oft times doth as at Amsterdam into two at Roterdam also and at London and when one of the Tolerated Churches breakes into two or three which shall be reckoned that that is the Church allowed of by the State for each part will pretend to it but now if they say the number must be left undetermined then we may quickely have halfe a dozen of their Churches in some one Parish of a City or Towne nay two or three Churches in a place sprung out of one of their owne and we may have every where three or foure men of an opinion differing from others to goe make a different Church and so they will encrease in infinitum and there will be no end of divisions and subdivisions But before I conclude I will answer five or sixe Reasons that be commonly alledged by them for their Toleration in this Kingdome Reason I. THis is no more than what is granted to the French and Dutch who live amongst us and have Churches and Government of their owne way exempt from the Government established Answer The case is quite different and that will appeare by these particulars First Those French and Dutch Protestants have nothing nor desire nothing but that which is Originally according to the Church and people they were borne and brought up in they enjoy nothing as Contra-distinct to the Protestants of France and Holland but the Independant men move for that which is Contra-distinct to their owne Church and Nation Yea and to all reformed Churches Secondly This liberty was granted by our pious Princes in times of persecution to the Protestants that so they might have here the exercise of their Religion in their owne tongue when they could not enjoy it at home and it hath beene of great use upon occasions in this way ever since for a refuge to the persecuted Protestants but what is your case to this you may enjoy the Protestant Religion in this Land and that by the Law and Authority of King and Parliament what colour then that you should move for an exemption of your Churches Thirdly these French and Dutch Churches will willingly be joyned in Government and in one way of Discipline with the Kingdome if there be a reformation which you will not Fourthly These Churches are not in an Independant government neither doe they hold your Principles of the Church but be as much against them as we they doe admit of appeales and in all businesse of greater moment have Synods Fifthly They being strangers amongst us of different Nations and Tongues not having those relations of Kindred and acquaintance with us but keeping themselves for the most part among themselves there is not that danger of drawing away the people nor of causing Schismes as from you that are of our Nation and tongue neither have they or doe ever vent principles against our Church and Government as you doe but content themselves with their owne way they neither can nor will admit ours to be members of their Congregations in respect our people understand not their language so that the people are so farre from leaving our Churches and becomming members of theirs as that our people cannot so much as resort to their Congregations to heare them Preach they Preaching in a language the people understand not all which is quite contrary with you Sixthly there is a great reason and necessity of allowing them Churches and places to Preach and bee by themselves because many of them understand not English at all and for the benefit of strangers of their Religion who come over who else could not enjoy the publicke exercise of their Religion at all and they may well be allowed some Discipline among themselves in respect they maintaine al their own poore not charging the Parishes where they live with them all which will not hold as a ground for Toleration of Independancy Their meetings by themselves are not upon your principles of a Church or Church government but because of different language c. Reason II. VVE seeke no more then what is granted us in Holland and what wee may enjoy there in a Countrey where we be strangers 1. Answer If your toleration in Holland be a good ground for a toleration here that we should doe so because Holland doth it then there should be a Toleration for all Religions amongst us as Jewes Anabaptists c. And if you would have it so speake out plainely there are some of you have whispered it and often spoke of it in private in the answer you give to these reasons Speake your mind and if you justifie a Toleration of all Religions I will discusse that question with you and take it up against you as not fit neither in Divinity nor policy as both against Rules of Conscience and Policy Secondly There may be a Toleration of you in Holland with much more safety to the government established and peace of that Church then can be here in this Kingdome the people of that Country not understanding your language having little or no relation to you nor you to them of kindred friendship where as it is quite otherwise here Thirdly That people of the Hollanders generally are an industrious people minding their businesses profits and keeping to what 's established by their Lawes not troubling their heads so much with other points of Religion but here in England and especially in the City of London and great Townes

and the 1. yeere of Elizabeth cap. 1. where it will be found that all Jurisdiction Superiority Spirituall and Ecclesiasticall as by any Spirituall or Ecclesiasticall power or authority hath beene or may lawfully be exercised for the visitation of the Ecclesiasticall state and persons and for reformation order and correction of the same and of all manner of Errours Heresies Schismes abuses offences c. shall for ever by authority of this present Parliament be united and annexed to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme As also that no orders nor constitutions may be enacted in the Church without the Kings assent and hence the oath of Supremacie was appointed by Law for every Ecclesiasticall person to take hence I aske the Independant men seeing they give that immediate Ecclesiasticall power to their particular Churches which the Papists doe to the Pope whether they will take the oath of Supremacie or doe acknowledge in their prayers that title of the King Defendor of the Faith c. Secondly they hold that things lawfull in themselves as for instance set formes of Prayer acknowledged by them to be lawfull yet being enjoyned by Authority are now unlawfull so that though a Forme of Prayer be lawfull yet being imposed for order uniformity that alters the case a strange paradox that things lawfull in themselves tending to Order and Peace should become unlawfull when commanded 3 They affirme that Christian Princes Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes Some of them deny also and question that received axiome that the Magistrate is custos utriusque tabulae Saying of those Kings of Judah and Israel who medled in the Church with reformation and establishment of Religion that they did it not as Kings but as types of Christ so that I leave it to better judgement whether it be safe for a Kingdome to tolerate such Churches who maintaine and vent upon all occasions such kinde of principles and as the principles so the people for a great part of them be dangerous and insufferable heady refractory proud bitter scornefull despisers of Authority who though but a few comparatively and the Lawes standing have attempted not to suffer the publicke prayers to be prayed but what with singing what with clapping on of Hats in times of prayer what with reviling and threatning of Ministers have laboured to hinder their use Now if they dare attempt such practises and things being but a few the Lawes being point blanke against them and the Lawes establishing the other what will they not doe when they shall be multiplyed and tolerated if they come once to a great head we may feare they will not tolerate the Churches and Government established by Law but what insolencies and mischiefes will follow upon their toleration not onely in Ecclesiasticall government but in Civill I leave such who are experienced men in matters of Government to fore-see and Judge of but hereafter too late to remedie but I desire rather to pray against a toleration than to Prophecy of the wofull effects of it Reason VIII THese independant men where they have power as in new England will not give a toleration for any other Ecclesiasticall Government or Churches but in their owne way they would not suffer men of other opinions in doctrine and government to live within the bounds of their patent though at the furthest bounds but have banished them They were sent to from England by some godly Ministers their brethren men otherwise approved by them as being against Ceremonies who being in danger of leaving the Land sent to know if they might have liberty according to their Consciences to goe in a Church way something differing from theirs and not in this Independant Popular Government to which question you may reade the answer they could not grant any other forme of government but one seeing there is but one way of Church government layd downe in the Word and that unchangeable and therefore they cannot yeeld to it So others of them will nottolerate or admit into fellowship the godliest Christians unlesse they will enter into Covenant professe their faith submit to their Church Orders though they would be of their Church so that these men who now would faine have a toleration in this great Kingdome will not allow any in a remote Plantation nor in one of their small particular Congregations for feare of disturbing the peace of their Church and yet would have a toleration in this Kingdome never caring to disturbe the peace and good of the three Kingdomes which would be much hazarded by it but thus partiall men are and you may observe it t is ordinary for men when they are not in place nor have no power in Church or Common-wealth and hold also Doctrines and principles contrary to what is held and established then to plead for tolerations when as the same parsons comming to be in place and to have power wil not tolerate others to set up any way different from theirs And I beleeve those present men who here are endeavouring a toleration for their Churches had they the power in their hands to settle a Government we should have no Government tolerated nor Church but the Independant way and for this see The Protestation Protested what he thinkes of our Church and of what ever Government shall be established Reason IX AToleration may be demaunded upon the same grounds for all the rigid Brownists of the Kingdom and for all the Anabaptists Familists and other Sectaries who professe t is conscience in them and in some respects upon better grounds it may be moved by them as being perswaded we are no true Church then for these Semi-Separatists nay whether may not the Papists petition to and hope to have a toleration of Religion seeing it is Conscience in many of them as well as you and if once an exemption be given from the Religion established by Law to one sort why may not others thinke to have the same priviledge and therefore if ever the dore of Tolerations should be but a little opened there would be great crouding by al sorts to enter in at it Reason X. THe granting a Toleration of this Independant way whose first fundamental principle is that two or three Saints where ever or by what meanes soever they doe arise separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the Gospell are a Church truely gathered and that they only have an immediate and independant power from Christ their immediate head to gather and combine themselvs without expecting warrant from any Governours whatsoever upon earth to make a Church doth make way for any thing for Libertinism or for any opinion in the world that so all who fall into any Doctrine or any who like not their owne Ministers and Church Government either because they restraine them from sinne or keepe them to Gods Ordinances they may goe three or foure