By the Judges then mentioned by the Apostle they understand Vmpires chosen among themselves to prevent the Scandal of Public Suits but without any Authority derogatory to the Public Magistrate and alledge from S. Thomas That if the Faithful had been forbidden to appear upon Summons before the Tribunals of Infidels it had been against the subjection due to Princes and contrary to the Command of S. Peter Be subject to every humane Creature to the King as precelling and to the Rulers as sent by him Bellarmin cannot digest this Vmpirage but persists against Barklay to maintain they were True Judges yet withal confesses they had no Coactive Power as to the External Court and that Christians were obliged when ever Cited at the Suit either of Infidel or Christian to answer before the Legal Magistrate because saies he they were not Chosen by consent of the Contending Parties alone but appointed by the Church But this I think makes them no other than bare Umpires for such they are and are so esteemed among us who are often appointed by our Court to decide particular Differences And all the obligation to stand to their Award was for ought appears the obligation of doing what became Christians whom S. Paul in that place and our Saviour before him had instructed Not to contend in Judgment but part with the Cloak too to him who would take away the Coat And this Obligation for ought I know continues still and Law Suits are a blemish to the perfection of Christianity even at this day where men should do a great deal better to decide their differences by a Friendly Composition than lose so much time and undergo so much Trouble as is required to follow the Law But if either We now or They then are not so perfect as we ought but will have recourse to Magistrates there is nothing in S. Paul which hinders their Jurisdiction Mean time I conceive the difference betwixt a Judge and an Umpire is that one has Power to execute his Sentence the other not wherefore Bellarmin may call them what he pleases but if they had no Coactive Power as he confesses they had not they were not what our and I think all Languages properly call Judges This Argument then seems to come off lamely enough while it supposes the Primitive Christians wanted Force against the plain testimony of Primitive Christians themselves and would prove a right to set up New Kings by setting up New Judges vvhich Judges had not that Power vvhich is necessary to a Judge and makes his proper distinction from an Umpire however vvhich did not prejudice the Authority of the Legal Magistrate In short it amounts to this Christians are now free from Subjection to their Princes because S. Paul advised them heretofore to do something which did not take away their Subjection to Inferiour Magistrates Peradventure a second Proof may be more lucky which Bellarmin makes in this manner To tolerate an Heretical Prince is to expose Religion to most evident danger For such as the Ruler of a City is such will be the Inhabitants Ecclesiastic 10. But Christians ought not to tolerate an Infidel Prince with evident peril of Religion because where Divine and Human Laws are opposite we must obey the Divine Law And the Divine Law obliges us to preserve the true Religion Human Law only to have this or that Man for King And to say truth Bellarmin is a little more lucky than ordinary for his Adversaries besides vvhat he Cites from Scripture grant him at least one Proposition namely That the Law of God is to be prefer'd before the Law of Man and they hit it so seldom that 't is well they agree in any thing But then they deny all the rest and affirm that to tolerate an Infidel King is not to expose Religion to evident danger That Christians ought be subject to the Prince God has set over him whatever he be That there is no Contrariety betwixt the Law of God and the Law of Man in this case and lastly That our Subjection to Princes is not only by Human Law And while they are in such an humour of Contradicting 't was great luck that Bellarmin could get any thing granted For the first they say Bellarmin forgets himself and his Doctrine elsewhere When 't was for his purpose he could acknowledge that The safety of the Church depends not on Human Industry but the Divine Protection and that he will be sure to take care of her and provide Remedies against all mischances which may befall her And they think if Bellarmin be forgetful there is no great fear that God will be so too or danger that any Wickedness will prevail against the Power of Omnipotent Goodness For what greater danger is there in these later daies more than in the former when for Three hundred years together Princes not only were Infidels but employ'd all their Power and all their Industry to root out Springing Christianity out of the World Notwithstanding which the Church continued and increased and prevail'd at last So that if a King happen to persecute the Church to think as Bellarmin seems to do that all is presently lost is to rely on the Arm of Flesh a little more than becomes a good Christian and to distrust either the Power or Goodness of God and besides manifestly to contradict the Evidence of History And for the second That People may not tolerate an Infidel Prince because that would expose Religion to evident Danger This Tolerating of a Prince seems something an unmannerly phrase for Subjects A Prince may when he sees fit Tolerate the unwaywardness of his Subjects and not punish all the faults he sees But for Subjects to Tolerate their Prince is an expression hardly tolerable They are to obey him not in his Infidelity which 't is permitted them even to oppose by all the dutiful means consistent with the Fidelity of good Subjects but in the rest to refuse Subjection is no less than to acquire damnation However Tolerating say they signifies not Acting Exposing signifies Acting and that not-doing should be thought Doing they apprehend very strange Yet if any Inconvenience follow from not Acting it is then only imputable to him who Acts not when He is otherwise obliged to Act. And no man can be oblig'd to Act but where the Action is Just and Lawful Now Rebellion and Tumults and Murther and such Actions as those of necessity must be by which a Lawful Prince is resisted by his Subjects till Bellarmin have prov'd Just and Lawful Actions they think they may safely deny any apprehended danger of Religion will justifie those who do them If any harm come they are all accountable to God who do it the People who do Nothing have nothing to Answer for unless it be blamable to trust Gods Providence and not to intermeddle without sufficient Cause a sufficient cause of Condemnation If the Laws of God did warrant the Interposing of the People something might be
said for them but since they do not their part is to do their Duty in what concerns them to do and rely upon God for the rest Then for the Contradiction between the two Laws The Divine Law saies Bellarmin obliges us to preserve the True Religion Human only to have this or that Man for King Where is the Contradiction say they Cannot I keep this Man for my King and keep my Religion too A body would â—kink that this is very possible to be done The contrary to that Divine Law is You shall not preserve the True Religion and if any Human Law command this Disobey freely in God's name for Aequum est obedire Deo magis quam Hominibus But while you disobey this Law which you cannot without offending God obey do not refuse to acknowledge your Prince and obey him there where you offend God if you do not obey Again the contrary to vvhat he calls the Human Law is You shall not have this or that Man for Prince or which is all one You shall not obey him in just Commands Bellarmin has not yet produc'd any Command of the Divine Law which saies this nor vvill till Rebellion become a part of Gods Law In fine Whoever persists to put a contradiction betwixt Fearing God and Honouring the King will be Confuted by all the Bells in the Parish Lastly Whereas he makes it only by Human Law that this or that Man is King they Reply vvhat you have more at large in a former Letter That He becomes King as the Pope becomes Pope by Human means but when he once is so Obedience to him is by Divine Right and so if there be any contradiction betwixt Preserving our Religion and Obeying our Prince the Divine Law contradicts it self For as Preservation of Religion is Divine Law so Obedience to Princes is Divine Law too If Bellarmin be not pleas'd vvith these Answers they leave him to make better himself retorting as they are very good at Reparty his Argument against a scandalous Pope for he say they exposes Vertue to evident danger For such as the Ruler such will be the Inhabitants And Gods Law is to be observ'd when 't is contrary to Human Law and Gods Law obliges us to preserve Vertue and 't is by Human Law only that this or that Man is Pope c. And so we come to another Argument from the parity betwixt an Infidel Prince and an Infidel Husband whom the Apostle allows the Faithful Wife to leave and therefore Why are not the Faithful People as free in respect of an Infidel Prince In Answer to this they Dispute several things with exactness enough and examining the particular Cases where and how far and why Divorce is lawful find several Disparities and several Reasons why the Argument concludes not But to leave those Considerations which are not without their perplexity this Reply of theirs seems very plain Bring say they a Permission from the Apostle for a Subject to desert his Prince as plain as this is for a Woman to leave her Husband and we vvill acknowledge the case is equal The Apostle plainly derogates from the general Rule and brings an Exception wherein the Law of Marriage binds not He that was so careful of Private concerns cannot be imagined unmindful of Public and greater Had he known any Exception from the general Rule of Obeying Princes it is not to be suspected he would conceal it and testifie more care for Private Families than Commonwealths So that the Argument amounts to this We are free from the Law in cases where the Law is dispenst with therefore we are free likewise where 't is not dispenst with Again say they the Woman is only then free when the Man refuses to live vvith her for if he stay S. Paul wishes her to stay vvith him Now if any Prince refuses to Govern his People unless they vvill become Infidels like himself I think they will allow the People are not obliged to turn Infidels for his sake but may get them another in case he leave them But if the King will stay with his People since the Woman is to stay with her Husband who vvill be with her they think the very parity concludes the People oblig'd to stay vvith their Prince Otherwise the parity stands in this manner Even as the Faithful Woman is not to leave her Unbelieving Husband who vvill continue vvith her even so the Believing People are to leave their Unbelieving King who vvill stay vvith them Or even as the Believing Woman is free from an Unbelieving Husband who casts her off even so the Beleiving People are free from an Unbelieving King vvho does not cast them off Which methinks are something unlike for Parities The next Argument is of great esteem with Bellarmin He made it in his Book De Rom. Pont. and repeats it in Tortus and urges it largely against Barklay This it is Princes are receiv'd into the Church with this either express or tacit bargain to submit their Scepters to Christ and preserve and defend their Religion and this under penalty of forfeiting their Kingdoms if they fail Wherefore if they become Heretics or an obstacle to Religion they may without injury be Judged and Deposed by the Church For he is not fit to receive the Sacrament of Baptism who is not disposed to serve Christ and lose all he has for his sake according to S. Luke 14. If any one comes to me and hates not Father and Mother c. he cannot be my Disciple And the Church would err too grievously if She admitted a King who without Controul would cherish Heresie and overthrow Religion C. 24. Thus Argues Bellarmin in Rom. Pont. But against Barklay more largely Let us imagine saies he an Infidel Prince desirous to be receiv'd into the Church should speak in this manner I desire to become a fellow Citizen with the Saints by Baptism and promiss to submit my Scepter to Christ and defend his Church to my power and never to break my holy purpose Nevertheless If I happen to break my Word and become an Heretic or Apostate or Pagan I will not be punisht with Temporal Punishments either by the Church or its President or any but Christ and if the Chief Governour of the Church separate me from the Communion of the Faithful I will nevertheless that the Faithful Sons of the Church continue Faithful Subjects to me and may not be absolved from the bond of their Obedience by any Such a King saies he if Barklay think fit for Baptism wise men would laugh at him For if a man should desire to be incorporated into any City and should protest that if he had a mind to betray that City he would not be judged by the Magistrates of it but by the King who dwells far off every body would laugh at him And truly He that according to the Gospel ought be prepar'd to lose his life for the Faith of Christ ought more to be
The Controversial Letters OR THE Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth and the true Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome The first two Letters The Second Edition LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Toke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-Yard MDCLXXIV E. Libris Beblioth Eccles Cathedr Petribur SIR I Fear the heat of our last Encounter may have done me some prejudice in your good opinion and would justifie to you if I can both my zeal and my friendship Permit me therefore with a more settled calmness to give you the Reasons which sway'd with me then but which the promptness of my nature possibly might so disguise that they might not then appear reason to you As this is my only so I hope 't will be my full justification for though we ow much to friendship we ow more to Truth and that Friend who bars the use of reason in his Friend does in my judgment ill deserve that Name Notwithstanding let me add what I think you are already sufficiently perswaded of that I am far from the blind zeal of those who think Popery an imputation so scandalous and contagious that it destroyes all correspondence with those who own it I have met with several besides your self of your judgment in Religion accomplisht men and so qualified that I cannot but wish either that all such men were Protestants or all Protestants such men I think so well of some parts of your Religion that there are who think the worse of me I read your books alwayes without hatred and sometimes with pity at the unequal combat betwixt the Knight and the Giant though I make no doubt you are even with us in this particular and are all Knights in your own Countreys When I hear People cry out Papists and Popery I have sometimes the bluntness to ask what they mean for having heard them apply'd both to Prelatics and Fanatics they must needs be words of a strangely large size and magical comprehension if they can fit parties so different and what know I but they may be so explain'd that you may own them no more than other folks In fine I look upon my reason as one of the greatest gifts I have receiv'd from God and am perswaded 't is a duty I ow him to use it as well as I can Wherefore I as little approve the passionate zeal of our side as I understand the sublime perfection of blind obedience on yours but where I see you have reason I am content to allow you have so Yet after all Friend I must continue constant to what I maintain'd at our last meeting I love my King and my Countrey as I ought and can neither believe that can be a true Religion which teaches doctrines inconsistent with Government nor believe otherwise but that yours does teach such doctrines And though I know their pestilent influence does not alwayes work for you have in the late times of tryal approved your selves honest men yet I cannot think that Commonwealth safe in which they are either tolerated or conniv'd at Of this I will make your self Judge and in this Paper produce my evidence which shall be the very words of the most famous Authors amongst you who if they be sufficient for number and considerable for learning and plain in expression and own'd for yours I see not what more can be expected from me nor what at all can be reply'd by you or any else To begin then there are I must confess some modest men amongst you Bellarm. de Rom. Pon. l. 5. c. 2. who speak sparingly of the Pope and affirm Princes are not the Popes Vicars These exempt from his Soveraignty the greatest part of the World for they make Infidel Princes true and supreme Princes of their own Kingdoms and say the Pope is not Lord of those possessions which Infidels hold Nay they go so far as to dare say He is not JVRE DIVINO Lord so much as of the whole Christian world Id. c. 3. And that all his power to depose Princes and dispose of their Kingdoms is only indirectly and in ordine ad spiritualia which alas is a matter of nothing and he must needs be a very scrupulous man who boggles at it For this opinion are cited besides two Cardinals Bellarmine and Cajetan abundance of other famous men with hard names Henricus and Joannes Driedo Turrecremata Pighius Waldensis Petrus de Palude Franc. Victoria Dominicus Soto Sanderus Aspileveta Covarruvias and so many others that Bellarmine affirms it is communis sententia Catholicorum Theologorum though in that particular as you will presently see he was a little out But these as many and as learned as they are are but dow-bak't men and scent strongly of wicked carnal policy and heresie too as an honest Gentleman fairly insinuates by the title of his Book Alex. Carrerius adversus impios Politicos nostri temporis Haereticos design principally against this opinion And so Bellarmine scap't fairly for Sixtus Quintus if the information I had from a very good hand deceive me not had a great mind to have burnt his book Though he scap'd more narrowly at Paris for giving too much to the Pope than at Rome for giving too little His fellow Suarez had his book burnt there by the common Hangman and he was found guilty of the same fault but he was a Cardinal for which respect I suppose they dealt more mercifully and only condemn'd and forbid him But this by the by Your hearty men whom the bugbears of carnal policy cannot fright from the defence of truth tell us another story and say plainly what we must trust too Vnless says Franciscus Bozius Fr. Bozius de Temp. Eccl. Monarchia praef ad Clem. 8. there be one supreme Monarch in the Church in all things the unity of the Church cannot be preserved for seeing the Church by divine institution doth consist of a Kingdom and a Priesthood if it were otherwise there should be in the same absolutely one Monarch of the Kingdom and another of the Priesthood That if for avoiding dissentions about sacred causes one supreme Head is appointed why not in the same manner of the Kingdom that there should be one and the same Head both of the Kingdom and Priesthood lest in like sort there should happen dissention betwixt them that therefore it is the rather to be held that Peter doth supply Christs place not only in the Priesthood but in the Kingdom that he might be a King and likewise a Priest according to the order of Melchisedech who was both a King and Priest The famous Cardinal Baronius sayes the same Baron Ann. Tom. 1. An. 57. p. 432 433. That David did foretell that the Priesthood of Christ should be according to the order of
Scholars for they are sure enough that for his own sake He will not use his power against those who maintain his interest It may be too with Princes as with other men who to compass some end upon which they are passionately set at present value not a mischief much more considerable than the loss of their present pretences which is farther of If the Pope can assist either French or Spaniard the Divines of that King whose part he takes may say any thing freely and Stasemen who have little esteem of Shoolmen will think the Pope sufficiently over-reacht when for a few pleasing words they have got peradventure a Town or Province So that your Princes seem to be alwayes playing with the Pope at Vy Politics in which game they think their steel to his quils advantage enough though I should think the advantage is cleerly on the Pope's side for as he cannot make stakes he hazards nothing but if Trump ever turn of his suit he bids fair for all Defende me gladio ego te defendam calamo peradventure was no such unequal offer Besides they may possibly have the art to turn his credit to their advantage and make use of it to keep their Subjects more obedient and more in aw It may be they have some of them no better original Title to all or part of their dominions than his Authority and then a blind man may see what reason they have to uphold it It may be these it may be other reasons sway with them but whatever they are or may be I think 't is plainly hatching a serpent in their bosoms For let us suppose the Pope and a Catholic Prince at ods a thing so far from impossible that 't is not unusual 'T is in his power you 'l say to continue Catholic whether the Pope will or no and then He 's safe for he gives the Pope no hold it being only Heresie upon which he can fasten But is this true that nothing will do it but plain Heresie Has not Zecchius taught us that the Pope may deprive Princes of their Kingdoms as oft as they do any great hurt in the Church And will not the bad example of contrasting stubbornly with the supreme Pastor be interpreted a great hurt in the Church Has not Fransciscus Bozius informed us that by reason of the supreme Monarchy in all things temporal Laws may be made by the Church and Kingdoms taken away for just causes If we ask what these just causes are Santarellus answers That Princes may be punisht and depos'd not only for Heresie but for other causes for their faults if it be expedient Ant. Sant in Her Schis Apostas c. c. 30. 31. if Princes be negligent if their persons be insufficient if unuseful How few Princes are there who fall not under some of these qualifications or at least may not be judged to do so when the Pope and He their Enemy is to be Judge As certainly it were a crime greater than the greatest of these to seek the determination of these things from any else This negligence though stumbles me a little for it seems a general and something a captious word and I think it would be to the satisfaction of those who are concern'd if it were defined as soon as might be how many hours a day a King is to give audience that he may not pass for negligent But the man for my money is Thomas Bozius who tells us plainly That the Church the Spouse of Christ De Jure Stat. l. 1. c. 6. p. 6. and Queen of the world may as often as the order of the whole doth require c. transfer the proper rights of one to another as a secular Prince may cast down private mens houses for the beautifying the City or impose tribute for the weal public That he may thus justly do although he hath not erred from whom such rights are transferred to another so the Pope gave the Indians to the Spaniards 'T is an honest fellow this Bozius and cares not for mincing matters Give me the man that speaks out But what think you is Heresie the only unkinging crime when you see any great harm negligence insufficiency unusefulness will do it When innocence it self is no security and the best King of the world may be turn'd out of his Kingdom and that justly if another be thought able to govern more handsomely What handsome work will these Maxims one day make in the world if they be suffered to take deep root For my part I cannot see but Catholic Princes as secure as you make them are no less concern'd then Protestants to beware of them and weed them up quickly and effectually But is it so easie to scape the crime even of Heresie I doubt not and am filthily mistaken if this word Heresie have not as comprehensive a sense and be not of a nature as plyable as Popery amongst us and if managed with equal dexterity may not prove equally serviceable The late King was the honour of Protestant Religion and certainly had never a Subject more unmoveably fixt in it than himself And yet malice made him pass for a Papist at least inclin'd to Popery do what he could and by that imputation principally undid both him and the Kingdom Henry the third of France was possibly as hearty a Catholic yet all his industriously affected bigotteries his great beads and Friers weeds could never clear him from the stain of Heresie maliciously fixt upon him till he fell with a fate different from that of our glorious King in this that his Kingdom suffer'd more no longer his own end was more private being execrably murthered by a private Paricide whereas the barbarous injustice done to our King was heightned by the formalities of public justice So that as far I see Heresie is as dangerous as Popery with us and as hard to be avoided But let us consider a little Sancius has told us that it is to be held with a right Faith that the Principality of the Bishop of Rome is the true and only immediate Principality of the whole World c. If this be right L. 4. c. 1. p 319. the contrary sure is wrong Faith and wrong Faith I think is Heresie Thomas Bozius who never fails will tell us that Christ committed to St. Peter the Carrier of the keys of eternal life the right both of the Terrene and Celestial Empire as Pope Nicholas saith from whom we have it that he is without doubt an Heretic who taketh away the rights of the Terrene and Celestial Empire committed by Christ to the Church of Rome and saith it is lawful so to do and for that he shall be an Heretic in such his assertions P. 152. And Carrerius that the Bishop of Rome is the highest Father and Man of the world and the universal Vicar and Lord of the world and that all others depend upon him as their builder and that otherwise if one
with which if they happen to play they have great luck if they do not burn their wings You are at your ease and may freely talk at pleasure secur'd by the Laws and at defiance with the Pope The case is otherwise with us who believing of the Pope as we do and subject to the Laws as we are can neither be without respect for him nor apprehension of them and though we could speak even clearness it self 't is all to nothing but we fall foul on one of the Rocks Notwithstanding since I ow much to your friendship I would gladly preserve if I can your good opinion both to my self and Religion of which you speak so charitably and nothing like an enemy and besides would not be guilty of her shame by confessing she has nothing to answer nor of my own by continuing in an unjustifiable communion I obey you with this request that you will take care to preserve me from the hazard I run by serving you and let this Paper be seen by none but such as mean as well as you and I. First then I am so far from thinking our friendship shockt by your free proceeding that I take my self and Religion both obliged to your candor and wish from my heart I may as well justifie her as you have your friendship And for my Church there are so few who look upon her with equal eyes that this pity of yours as just and charitable as it is is yet more rare and I cannot see it without as much acknowledgment as satisfaction And yet as strongly as you discourse every where I think you have reason no where more than in this particular For so it is if we say nothing and when we are often and loudly provoked to speak still hold our tongues we have a bad cause and such for which nothing can be said if we speak we are insolent and cannot keep our selves quiet when we are well And after all 't is the Combat betwixt the Knight and the Giant still as you have rightly observed But the world is the world where Reason as much our nature as it is cannot hinder but Chance and Interest and Passion and several humours to which men are subject will have their share in the conduct of things Wherefore without complaining farther of what complaints are not likely to remedy I think it best to address my self to my defence And the first point of it shall be to declare I mean not to defend any of those opinions which you have alledged with so much sharpness for in truth I think them not defensible and that there is not more sharpness than justice in what you say Not but that to own who would take the pains to peruse the Authors you have cited some of those Sayings possibly might not appear so ugly as they do in your Paper For there is a great difference betwixt words taken as they lie in the whole Context and singled out from their fellows who might peradventure to some of them afford some tolerable explication But besides that I conceive that labour not necessary for my purpose I have no kindness at all for the Doctrines and not enough for the Authors to prevail with me to undertake it I have heard from those who meddle with Controversie that their greatest difficulty often is to preserve the credit of private men whom because they are of the same Communion they are so unwilling to affront that they have much ado to preserve the Church from the contagion of their Errors As my nature is a little more blunt I have no such difference for them and think it but just that Qui pergit quae volt dicere ea quae non volt audiat Let them shift for themselves on Gods name or let those defend them who approve their Maximes For my part I hate them heartily and think it but a preposterous Charity to be so tender for the credit of those who betray the credit of the Church Allowing then for reason all you say against those opinions of which I think as ill as you can do I yet conceive your reason fails in the inference you draw from them That true Religion cannot teach Doctrines inconsistent with Government That a Commonwealth is not safe in which such Doctrines are either tolerated or conniv'd at that is when they come to be instilled and get credit with the People otherwise while they remain in the Schools I should think the danger not very great for Kingdoms are not overturn'd by Syllogisms Farther if you please that the Doctrines you have produced are such Doctrines I freely grant you But that our Church does teach such Doctrines I deny and notwithstanding all you have said if you still preserve your unbyass'd candor hope to make the contrary very evident And first because with you I think my authority may signifie something for you know I will not tell you a lye you shall permit me to say something of my own knowledge I was born you know of Catholic Parents bred up in Catholic Religion and have lived some part of my time in Catholic Countries I have been at their Schools heard their Catechisms their Sermons their Discourses and by the care of my Friends and some pains of my own think few of my condition more fully instructed in that Religion I assure you faithfully I was never taught any such Doctrine nor ever heard the Church taught it On the contrary I have been bred up in this belief that obedience to my King is not only truly a duty but a duty truly required by Religion and this perswasion was so well setled in my heart that I yet remember how great and surprizing a horror the late Rebellion caused in me when I was too young to judge otherwise of it or any thing else but as I found it contrary to the sentiments which had been instilled into me I have heard indeed of the opinions you cite but as of extravagancies of bold men and when I came to the age of judging of things my self found that though they were held by men living in Communion with the Church they had yet no warrant from the Church to hold them nor any better ground than their own mistaking reasonings and so continued to detest them by judgment as I did before by Education Now this answer which it seems you foresaw you have endeavoured to prevent making use your self of an Artifice of Rhetoric to bar me the assistance of Logic for you would perswade me that to distinguish the material Church from the formal or the man from the Churchman is an idle airy nicety which is of no use in the World But truly one of us is much mistaken for I think on the contrary that nothing is more obvious nothing more familiar let me add nor more necessary and that even to your material world as you call it which without such distinctions would quickly run into confusion The World is made up of men
to satifie them all And as the Schools go now it is not hard to say almost any thing As men are of several tempers I will not deny but some may be truly perswaded of your Doctrines and defend them with an upright conscience thinking that to exalt the Pope is truly advantageous to Religion and beneficial to the World But I believe you will not find many so qualified Those you have named are some the Popes own Subjects most Italians or Spaniards upon whom He is known to have particular influence and if we judge that in this exalting the Pope they might have an eye to the preferment of themselves I think it will be no rash judgment Of latter times those have appeared the chief sticklers in this quarrel who are thought to have the greatest dependance upon Rome So that of all produced and produceable in behalf of those opinions I deceive my self if the number be not shamefully inconsiderable against whom there lies not a just suspicion of interest and of whom it may not reasonably be judged that Hopes or Fears or something besides pure Conscience swayed their judgments And Interest you know is a just exception against a Witness in all Courts As for private men what would you have them do Consider that all Catholics look upon the Pope as the chief Bishop in God's Church and supreme Pastor of the whole Flock If they hear any thing said over-lashingly of him can it be expected they should be forward to speak what they think til a due occasion urges them Or have less respect for him than common civilitie uses to every body For when any thing is said advantageous to a person with whom we converse if we believe it not we keep our thoughts to our selves and think it rudeness to oppose it to their faces Besides as I said at first this medling of private men with the concern of Princes is the Flies playing with the Candle Withrington quite burnt his wings Walsh has fairly sing'd them and if people learn wariness by the harms of other men I conceive they are not blameable As frightful and threatning as the Idea is which you have made of this danger no Prince that I know thinks it great enough to deserve that they should interpose and I think the man very foolishly wise who will pretend to understand their concerns better than themselves or better know what is fit to be done People of our private Sphere see but one thing Princes see that one thing in likelihood better than we and a hundred more of which we never dream and till they stir themselves for private men to obtrude their politic Ignorance upon them is so far from laudable that it is well if it be pardonable neither will their forwardness signifie more than an over busie diligence and peradventure saucy unquietness The old Monks wise counsel Sinere res vadere ut vadunt is as necesiary in the world as a Cloyster Besides for English Catholics in particular they have somewhat more reason to keep silence while their speaking is sure to be discountenanced on the one side and not sure to be protected on the other You may perceive by Caron's Collection that Catholicks are so much mealy mouthed men towards the Pope when there is fit occasion to speak what they think and God forbid that Forreiners should be better Subjects than English men I am sure they were Catholics who declared in Parliament that the imperial Crown of England is and at all times has been free from all subjection to the Pope And provided the Statute of Praemunire against such abuses as were then found inconvenient And they were Catholicks who refused to repeal this Statute in the days of Queen Mary when other Laws made against the Popes Authority were taken away But if you will have a touchstone of the fidelity of English Catholics look a little upon the year 88. The Pope had stretched his Authority as far as it would go and proceeded to Excommunication Deposition and Absolution of his Subjects from Obedience to her down right Commands to assist her Enemies and this Authority was backt by the Power of a great Prince in their thought and language invincible Besides the Title of the Queen born in time of a Marriage declared lawfull by the Pope was not free from dispute which carried the inclination of Catholics to the Title of Scotland since happily introduced and which I hope will long happily continue and this was if I mistake not the true reason of the jealousie and severity of those times against them Notwithstanding the unusual concurrence of so many and so great temptations They stood firm in their Allegeance and both our own and forrein Writers testifie that neither the subtil Arts of the Politic Spaniard or the enforcement of the Popes Authority could prevail to make any Party here but that the most learned and esteemed of the Priests by a solemn and authentic Writing acknowledged the Queen notwithstanding she was excommunicated and deposed by name to have still the same Authority and power as before and as much as any of her Predecessors and the Layty chearfully and universally offered to hazard their lives in defence of their Prince and Country and that as private Souldiers ther being too much suspicion in the jealousie of those times to pretend to commands In fine the Spaniards were so ill satisfied with them that the Duke of Medina Admiral in that expedition at his return plainly told the Dutchess of Feria an English Woman of the Family of the Dormirs that had he prevailed no difference had been made betwixt Catholics and others more than what the Sword could have found Of later times the whole Nation is obliged to bless God for the happy fidelity of some of them and we had still been groaning under our late miseries if this traiterous Religion had not principled even poor men into a fidelity stronger than the temptation of Gold And 't is not like the men who act thus would refuse to speak in fit occasion Things have been written even since the return of his Sacred Majesty which have been peradventure more zealous than seasonable but however which sufficiently discover the inclination of Catholics to say all that can be expected with reason from them when the conjuncture is proper In the mean time to consider the Dilemma you so earnestly recommend to me I must tell you it concludes not We are inexcusable say you if we renounce not those Positions when without injury to the Churches Authority or our own conscience we may Why so F A is there no excuse for an action but this that 't is unlawful People before they do any thing use to consider the Why as well as the What and examine not only whether the action be allowable but whether it be convenient But not to insist on this I will offer you a fair bargain Do you your part and I will do mine make it reasonable make
their Prince qui vicem Dei agit who is the Vicar of God as to God himself S. Tho. of Aquin. If he be Author of the work attributed to him De Regim Princ. l. 2. says a King is oblig'd with all care and diligence to look after Religion not onely because he is a man but because he is a Lord and a King and Dei vices gerit is the Vicar of God on whom he chiefly depends To omit Nicolaus de Lyra Fevardentius and more then a Letter would hold or you have patience to read for I think you are furnisht with a sufficient stock of that vertue if you can forgive the folly of saying so much as I have done which seems to me not much wiser then to go about seriously to prove there is such a place as Jamaica or has been such a Man as Harry the 8th I shall onely adde the Authority of the Roman Pontifical Printed at Rome 1595. where the Prayer appointed for the Consecration of Kings ends thus That you may glory without end with our Redeemer Jesus Christ cujus nomen vicemque gestare crederis whose name you bear and whose Vicar you are This being so consider now what a pleasant Argument you have light upon by which Kings may as well absolve Penitents and confer Sacraments as the Pope dispose of Kingdoms Notwithstanding let us look a little nearer upon it Christ say you gave all the power he had He had all both Spiritual and Temporal therefore the Pope must have it too If you will not be too hasty in your censure but delay it till I have time to explain my meaning I will answer you a Catholick may be a very good Catholick and believe all a Catholick is bound to believe and yet believe never a one of those two Propositions Not that I mean to be guilty of the blasphemy of denying to the Son of God all power in Heaven and Earth but that Son of God being man too I do not know a Catholick is bound to believe that man purely as man was a temporal King But of this more by and by when your second Proposition comes into play in the mean time let us consider the first viz. That Christ gave to the Pope in St. Peter all the power he had himself Pray how does this appear 't is included say you in this that he is his Vicar I beseech you consider again for I cannot readily think of an inference which seems to me more wild and more palpably contradicted by the open course of things with which we daily converse A Judge represents the Kings Person a Constable does it all Officers both Civil and Military supply his place in their several employments Can every one of these therefore do as much as the King Can a General coyn money or a Judge call a Parliament or a Constable make War and Peace We see their several Powers are bounded by their several Commissions and the priviledge of representing his person gives them no more power then he is pleas'd to confer upon them How can it be otherwise with the Pope He indeed is the Vicar of Christ and represents his person and so the Judge does the Kings but what power he has we are to learn from his Commission not his Title Let us now consider what a good Catholick may say to this point And first I believe no man can reprove him if he say he finds no temporal power included in any Commission recorded in Scripture Tradition or the Fathers and if he refuse to believe more then he finds there I think none will reprove him for that neither In Scripture we find Saint Peter commissionated to teach to baptize to feed the Flock to confirm his Brethren we find the Keys of Heaven promis'd and given him and what those Keys signifie we find there declared to be this that what he should bind or loose on Earth should be bound or loos'd in Heaven But of deposing Kings or disposing of Kingdoms we read no word That his Commission extends only to Spirituals is a thing so notoriously known and universally receiv'd amongst Catholicks none denying it but some Canonists who meddle ultra crepidam and a few Divines who handle their crepida unskilfully and follow them that to be serious and earnest in the proof of it is a labour as little needful and perhaps less pardonable then that which I have newly ended of shewing Princes to be Vicars of God However because I am to say nothing of my self hear what others say De Anath Vinc. Gelasias speaks very clearly Fuerant haec ante adventum Christi c. Before the coming of Christ figuratively and remaining yet in carnal actions some were both Kings and Priests as the H. History delivers of Melchizedeck Which thing too the Devil striving always with a Tyrannical Pride to usurp to himself those things which belong to divine Worship has imitated amongst his Followers so that amongst Pagans the same men have been Emperours and chief Bishops but when we were once come to the true King and Bishop Christ neither has the Emperour any longer assum'd the name of a Bishop nor the Bishop the regal dignity For although his Members that is of a true King and Bishop are magnificently said according to the participation of his nature to have assum'd both in a sacred generosity that the Regality and Priesthood may subsist together yet Christ mindful of the frailty of humane nature tempering with a glorious Dispensation what might conduce to the salvation of his People has so distinguisht the Offices of both Powers by proper Actions and distinct Dignities desirous his Followers should be sav'd by wholesome Humility and not again betray'd by humane Pride both that Christian Emperours should need Bishops for eternal life and Bishops in the conduct of the temporal things should use the Imperial Laws that the spiritual action might be distant from carnal assaults and he who militat Deo is a Souldier of Gods should not embroil himself with secular business and on the other side he who is entangled in secular business should not preside over divine matters both that the modesty of both degrees might be provided for lest he who had both should be puffed up and a convenient profession be particularly fitted to the qualities of the Actions This man was a Vicar of Christ himself and you see he is so far from thinking his Commission extends to temporal things that he plainly teaches Christ distinguisht them and left the spiritual Power so alone to him that for temporal Laws he was to be beholding to the Emperour I might peradventure have run the hazard of reproof if I had said that to joyn those two Powers is an Artifice of the Devil but I suppose that saying will not be reprov'd in so antient and so holy a Pope Symmachus succeeded as to his Chair being the next Pope but one after him so to his Doctrine You says he to the
worse obliges you to conceal the Mischief she teaches that by the reputation of a fair Outside you may preserve your selves in a condition to appear to purpose vvhen time and opportunity make it seasonable for her to discover her injust designs If this happen I must needs profess I shall have a worse opinion of your Church than ever I had For to maintain a false or bad Doctrine which you think to be true or good is but Errour a fault which unless other Circumstances aggravate the case is very pardonable because very natural Men were not men if they were not subject to it But to teach Wickedness and keep this wickedness conceal'd from those who are not as wicked as themselves to pretend a sound Outside and carry a rotten heart has so much Malice joyn'd to the Errour that 't is abominable in a private man and I have not a name abominable enough to say what 't is in a Church After all your brags of Sanctity I hope you vvill not fall into the woe which the Gospel pronounces against Whited Sepulchres beautiful without but within full of dead mens bones and filthiness In fine if you think Bellarmins Doctrine true you have the liberty to make it consistent with Civil Government if you can I 'le promise you to consider what you can alledge as fully and impartially as you can desire and give every Argument its full weight But if you say nothing or dodge it off which is as good as saying nothing being well enough acquainted with your nature to know you are not backward to communicate any thing you can to the satisfaction of your Friends especially when it tends to the justification of your selves I shall know how to set the saddle upon the right horse and without putting you to the confusion of revealing the shame of your Mother conclude you are forbidden to speak and though you were not allow you do wisely to say nothing where nothing is to be said that can make for your justification The Jesuite Fisher was commanded by King James to deliver his Sence of this amongst other Points propos'd to him And he Answered the rest but past this over with this plain Confession for his excuse That he was forbidden to speak of that Subject If you follow his Example I shall believe you have one Religion vvhich you publish for your Reputation and another vvhich you conceal for your Interest I shall expect your Answer vvith impatience and in the mean time remain Your c. FRIEND I Must confess I should have thought my self oblig'd to you if you had dispenst with me in the Question you now propose so pressingly Hitherto I have said nothing but what the Fathers have said for me and hope if any man dislike any thing he will consider before he condemn it what it is to slight and oppose an Authority so venerable But now I am not only without the support of Authority for 't is not to be expected a peremptory decision should be found in the Fathers of a Question which entered not into the world till a good while after they had left it but the face of Authority is on the other side not but that I conceive the Question fully decided to those who mind Sence not Words For it appears very plainly in what I have already produc'd That the Temporal Power moves in its own sphere both Supreamly and Independently which is in truth the whole business But yet because this word Indirect is not found in the Fathers 't is still pretended that the Question is not decided by them and those who have appeared against that Power are for the most part discredited by Censures and rendred so unfit to support others that they have not been able to uphold themselves In my judgment not without partiality For they were Men of Learning and Vertue nor is any thing that I know laid to their charge more then that they thought otherwise in this Point than they think at Rome And yet they at Rome at the same time freely communicate with some who think the same and publish their thoughts and own them in the face of the vvorld However it be I so much value the content of thinking my thought quietly to my self and letting others think as they please of going unregarded on my own road and let others stray as much as they will without thinking my self bound to set them right that I know not any task you could enjoyn me to which I have a greater aversion And I must tell you frankly that were there no more in the case than the bare satisfaction of your curious humour I would intreat you to satisfie it at some other rate than the quiet of your Friend and putting him out of his easie road and setting him to strive against the stream But since with a kind of malicious importunity you profess to interpret my Silence to the disadvantage of the Church I must run the hazard of being perhaps traduc'd my self rather than suffer her to be so and think my self oblig'd to sacrifice my Humour and inconsiderable Concerns to Her honour and service Wherefore since there is no remedy but I must swallow this ungrateful Pill I pray God make it as wholsome as I find it bitter To begin then 'T is too much known that there is a Power attributed to the Pope by some more than is thought due by others and more than some Popes themselves believe for 't is written of Pius Vth. that he blam'd the groundless flattery These Favourers of the Pope are divided into two branches Some giving him an absolute Direct Power over all both Spirituals and Temporals Others restraining his Direct Power to Spirituals but extending it to Temporals too in as much as they have reference to Spirituals The former is call'd the opinion of the Canonists they being most of that Opinion who hold it the later is the opinion of Divines who generally go this way Now if there were nothing in the case but the Authority of the Maintainers and strength of the Reasons by which they maintain it People might dispute with freedom and let the strongest Argument carry it But Popes have taken part and own'd this Power and though they have not determin'd either the way or the thing yet they take it for granted they have it some way and proceed upon it By this means it has got the face of Authority and the universal Reverence we bear our Chief Pastour as it inclines many to think well of all that is favourable to him so it awes the rest who do not into a shiness of contradicting it So that of Learned Men those who write of this Subject write generally in favour of it those who think otherwise chuse other Subjects to write of as in truth there is but little reason to disgust Higher Powers meerly to shew there Learning But this reservedness has been so much taken notice of that long since it has been
of the Canonists opinion which made you disclaim it but because that wickedness came clad in sence and people could understand it But the same wickedness disguis'd in non-sence is a Darling So that your Pique was not to the wicked but the sence make it but non-sensical enough and let it be never so wicked you are for it I bar Sophistry too and unintelligible Subtleties Let your Schollers keep their riddle me riddle me to themselves I shall understand the Talmud as soon as what you call Terms of Art meaning I suppose the Art of keeping things from being understood The Art of talking so that no body shall know whether you say I or No. But I understand what 't is to Command and Obey And to bring the whole to a short plain Issue I ask If it should happen the Pope should command you to disobey your King and the King command you to disobey the Pope by whom will you stand And I expect an Answer as plain as my Question I declare too because I will not turn our dispute into a controversie of Religion nor meddle with the Popes Spiritual power that I mean only of Temporal commands of such commands wherein you have no reason nor doubt but you ought obey the King but only because the Pope commands the contrary Give me a direct Answer to this for I tell you I bar Indirects and the business is done If you will obey your King you are an honest man and have disclaim'd Bellarmin as well as the Canonists If the Pope you must make out if you can how he is a good Subject who refuses to obey his Prince The business being now in a very narrow compass and perceptible by every body there I leave it with this Advertisement that upon your Answer depend the thoughts I shall have of your Church or if you will men of your Church According as you Answer I or No I shall believe you consistent or not consistent with Government There I began and there I end I hope you will give me no occasion to chang my thoughts of you for truly 't would grieve me if I could not with as much satisfaction to my Judgment as Inclination own the title of Your c. FRIEND ME thinks you deal roughly for a Friend If I were as brisk as you here would be brave doings What a bustle do you keep with me with Bellarmine and the Church and all because I desir'd to keep my thoughts to my self Truly I thought silence no such hainous crime I have known many repent of speaking but few of holding their tongues But for my self you may deal as you please twenty to one but I may at some time or other find occasion to cry quittance with you and then I expect you should allow me the liberty you take But Bellarmine what harm his he done you to incur your indignation so highly Is he the only man who maintains the Indirect Power And if he were can you not disprove him fairly and let your bitterness alone The Church too Pray what is she concern'd whether I do as you would have me or no Can no Member of her Communion displease you but she presently must be brought in She is this and she is that if I do not what I have no mind and for all your earnestness I fear no reason to do But you have got an eye of me and you follow it You know I value the Church above my self and that I will never agree she should be ill thought of if I can help it Indeed I was in hope to have cut the Thread and answered so as might please you and displease no body else But since 't will not be and that there is no way to clear her from those blemishes which your capricious Jealousie has cast upon her but by forcing my own inclinations I think my self oblig'd rather to expose my self to other mens censures then leave her expos'd to yours If any man dislike my resolution I entreat him for one moment to make my case his own and consider what he would do so loudly and so smartly challenged and what duty requires he should do when on the one side the Churches reputation is at stake on the other the quiet it may be credit of particulars If he doubt which side to take I must needs think he has less respect for his mother then becomes a good child For my part I am perswaded otherwise Well! But you will not be satisfi'd unless I speak plainly Would I knew whether you will be satisfi'd if I do For I tell you truly I begin to be as jealous of your earnestness as you of my reservedness If reason would have satisfi'd you I think you might have been satisfi'd before this time However I will venture to make one experiment more and try what I can do with you by and by If you be in earnest and that plain dealing will do it I shall prevail at last For I will tell you and that very plainly more then you ask You shall know not only what I think but why I have been thus backward to tell you what I think I will frankly discover all my policy which makes you so merry peradventure to be as much laught at for my simplicity but however you shall have no cause of jealousie of what I harbour in my breast when you know all I harbour there But do not think I mean to be so merry as you are I am in no such pleasant humour and think the matter a little too serious If you had spared some of your mirth I believe 't would have been ne'r a whit the worse The meat might have been altogether as good if the sauce had been less tart But to our business You are still harping upon the Church A worm of Jealousie is crept in and will not out You are still suspicious she forbids people from dealing freely in these matters I told you there was no such thing and I tell you so again at least that I know and I tell you besides That had there been such a thing and I known it I would have dealt as sincerely with you as Fisher with King James told you so at first and never medled so much as I have done But if you will know the true cause of my reservedness know that you your self have a great share in it You are all on fire because I say not presently what pleases you I suppose you do not imagine but there are men of tempers as hot as you whom that will displease which pleases you Besides the Question is of a particular nature It has been can vast heretofore with much animosity The fire is not yet dead It flames not indeed at present because the fuel of occasion is taken away but the heat lyes rak't up in mens hearts and would easily break out again I would not for all the world be he who should blow this heat into a new flame But for
that I conceive my breath too faint and inconsiderable However as I love not to meddle with hot men at all so I would gladly be guilty of so much policy as not to provoke hot men upon a hot subject Whether I say I or No one hot side will be apt to take offence Wherefore I thought it the best way to hold my tongue Now your fantastical curiosity is not satisfi'd with this but is as hot upon my silence as others may be upon my speaking And would perswade me you play the Friend all the while I hope you will send me the next time to stir a nest of Wasps and make me believe it a point of Friendship However I assure you the Church has nothing to do with my silence neither do I or ever did apprehend any thing from her The Church has other imployment then to look so low as I am and besides God forbid that Innocence should not be safety enough for any of her Communion All that I apprehend is the heat of private men of those with whom I am like to meet and converse and from whom I may chance hear twenty cross Questions 'T would vex me to have a man come to me and say You Sir Pray how long have you taught Divinity or in what Vniversity taken degrees who presume to handle so freely men in reverence for their learning with all Divines and all Vniversities The world is at a fine pass when a little pert confidence shall set up every pidler in learning against those who have spent their lives in nothing else Again You pass for a Catholick and acknowledge at least in words That the Pope is supream Pastor 'T is done like a dutiful Child to go about to lessen your Father The next time you write I hope you will leave him no power at all I fore see the next piece will be of Antichrist and then there is hopes you may in time proceed to the three Impostors 'T is an Heretical spirit this and beware of it I may be in a froward humor when I hear this and it may be return a froward answer and then we fall out and he tells every body he meets I am in a dangerous condition tottering upon the very brink of perdition and 't is great luck if I scape the precipice Every body who hears this said and that confidently and gravely will not hear what I can say for my self or if they did they are but few with whom the solemn outside will not carry it against a better reason then I shall be able to produce And then I pass for dangerous or busie or foolish as they please to frame my character My Friends begin to look askew at me and all the sweetness of conversation and innocent pleasure of hearty Friendship is lost This would be wonderful uneasie to me and if it should happen as 't is like enough I should whatever you do think it a great inconvenience In fine every man has his humor and mine is not to make an enemy of so much as a Cobler if I could keep him my Friend This is the reason why I so readily diclaim'd the Canonists because I meet with none who are like to give me any trouble about them And this is the reason why I was more reserv'd in the other opinion because I may meet with this trouble I hope you will not think this a reflexion upon my communion as if they were more troublesom to their Neighbours then other folks Men are men of all communions and hot men are hot men and such are impatient that any perswasion they have wedded should be contradicted This is all the disquiet I foresaw and apprehended and the great Policy with which you keep so much ado And if it be Policy to think my thought quietly to my self as I elsewhere told you and not fall out with every man who thinks otherwise nor give any man occasion to fall out with me to think I have no commission to Reform every thing I dislike but that there may and will be errours in the world let me do what I can I avow to you I would have been a Politician if you would have let me and am very sorry you did not But now we are upon Politics let me tell you one thing by the way You are a meer Mortal at Politics as well as your Neighbours What work do you make with the business of 88 and how slily do you make it pass for an effect only of Heresie If you do in earnest believe so I can tell who 's the Sir Pol. But sure you understand things better then not to know Pretence is one thing and Cause another 'T is true Heresie was pretended and it may be was a partial cause too of as much as the Pope did But do you think the King of Spain was at all that charge purely upon the account of Zeal Sure you do not think him so great a Saint Or if you do all the world knows 't was Interest of State not Religion which rais'd that Army and set out that Armada The Queen stood in the way of his great thoughts and so crost his designs upon other mens dominions that she made him unable to recover his own This obstacle to his ambition he had a mind to remove and Religion was no bad pretence among his own Subjects vvho vvere and still are exceeding Zealous but he so little valued it himself that he would not so much as own it And this a better Politician then you or I Grotius in his History of the Low Countries has observed Some saies he would have had the war proclaimed by a Herald but others thought the right of claim from the Popes sentence would make out but a lame Title And these it seems were the wiser and carried it See now what conceit the Spaniards themselves had of your Politic Cause and no better had we in England For though Mendoza had vainly boasted of I know not what affection of some principal men here towards the Spaniard in all likelyhood to ingratiate his own diligence yet whatever his thoughts were saies Grotius again it appeared true afterwards that however English Catholics might differ in Religion there was none of them so imprudent as to trust their Lives and Fortunes to the undistinguishing sword of a Forreign Conquerour And yet they were at that time as much affected to the Pope as any people in the world and thought as highly of his power And for all that they did not think he had power to dispossess their Soveraign and distinguisht rightly betwixt Pretence of Religion and Reason of Interest I can assure you we are of the same mind still and know an Invader let him be never so much a Catholic is an Invader and let him pretend vvhat he vvill means to enslave those he Invades and alwaies will He that comes vvith a Cross in his mouth and a Sword in his hand vve know vvhat he vvould
be at and shall never be so senceless to be diverted by vvhat he saies from considering vvhat he vvould do I tell you once for all we would fight as freely against the Pope as the Turk if he come like a Turk in Arms and you may easily believe me for all Nations do it vvithout difficulty when there is occasion French Spaniards Italians themselves have all had their turns Marry if he come like a Pope to direct our feet in the ways of that peace which Christ bequeath'd as a legacy to his Church I for my part vvill fall down at his feet and kiss them too laugh you as much as you vvill In the mean time I vvould advise you as you do me to let Politics alone and not go about to perswade the vvorld Heresie was the cause of all the danger of 88 vvhen if there had been no such thing there had not been one Ship or one Souldier the less Had Queen Elizabeth been Inquisition-proof as much as King Philip he vvould have done just as he did For 't was the enemy of Spain and friend to Holland not the enemy to the Pope vvith vvhom he had the quarrel Had the Pope himself been in her place the Pope had been invaded as she vvas And this I say not altogether by guess for both he and his Father actually did invade the Pope and his Father take him prisoner too But so much for your Politics and my reservedness of which I have now given you the very reason and told you the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth As for Bellarmin I wish you had spared some of your smartness He was a great man and if you would undertake to answer all that he has writ peradventure you would go neer to find him so Nay do but write on any chuse what you think the easiest Subject as much as he has done of intricate matters and if you do not somewhere or other give occasion of as much sport as you have made with him I shall much marvel A great piece of Mastery it is out of so many Volumes where 't is impossible the Author should alwaies be equally attentive to pick out a few lines and turn them to Burlesque If I had a mind to take his part against you perhaps I could make it appear He is not altogether such an Ass as you would make him even in this question For example You quarrel with him because as you say he forgets to explain what he means by Indirect where he first uses the word As if those against whom he then writ did not understand it well enough and need no explication His notion pleases not you and you say it is not the Notion of the world Suppose it be not He writ to that part of the World which understood it in his Notion If they understand one another what is' t to you and me what words they use Again you say He makes no use of that word in the whole course of his Arguments What is it to purpose whether he did or no It may be he had no occasion But if you consider his Arguments you will find they proceed all upon what he understands by Indirect Power and that they are all along opposite to the Canonists who maintain in the Pope a power properly Temporal whereas he places in him only a Spiritual Power and then endeavours by those Arguments to prove that supream Spiritual Power may in vertue of its being so extend also in some cases to Temporals which is in his language to be Indirect and was so understood by those against whom he intended his Arguments So that he is so far from forgetting as you imagine his Indirect that he makes use of it and nothing else More I could say in his behalf if I had a mind But I mean not to engage for him He has friends a great deal more learned then I who can speak for him when they think convenient As you have ordered the matter I have enough to do to quit my self However I mean now to endeavour it and quit my self so if I can that I may hear no more of you For I am very weary of being baited thus long at one stake and will come no more there if I can help it I tell you then I will stand by your Parliament-Doctrine as much as you or any of his Majesties Subjects and take it unkindly at your hands you should surmise I would do otherwise That Parliament was a Catholick-Parliament if you remember and might have put you in mind that Catholicks may be both good Catholicks and good Englishmen 'T is true there may be Traytors of them and those Traytors may disguise their Treason with the pretence of Religion as who would not get as hand some a vizard as he could for so ugly a face But 't is plain that their Religion has no inconsistency with their duty to their King and Countrey when we see their Religion was no hindrance to them for providing for the liberties of their Countrey against the encroachments of pretended Religior On the contrary I conceive it more shameful and more wicked for us who persevere in the same Faith to degenerate from the same Loyalty then for men of other perswasions But to go on I disavow and detest the wicked and pernicious Doctrine which teaches the deposition of Kings whom I acknowledge to hold independently of God and will be ready on all occasions to lay down my life in confirmation of this Truth and when you please will give under my hand that 't is new false erroneous contrary to the Word of God and several ways mischievous besides and will never maintain any opinion to the contrary I know not how you will relish this way of speaking but I can assure you 't is a way in which wiser men then I have walk't before me But to give a direct Answer to the Question to which you have reduc't the whole and which by the way I am very glad you have confin'd to Temporals for I do not mean to be perswaded out of my Religion by your earnestness I answer thus That I will at all times and in all occasions stand by my King against whatsoever Power and under whatsoever pretences And because you are particularly jealous of the Pope I declare I will stand by my Soveraign and believe it my duty so to do against the Pope as firmly as against any other as being fully perswaded he has no Power Direct or Indirect Virtual or Formal or by whatever names it has or may be call'd to depose or dispossess him of all or any part of his Dominions or authorise his Subjects not to perform faithful obedience to him And I absolutely disclaim all Doctrine to the contrary by whomsoever maintained and under whatsoever disguises And if you distrust my word I will pawn you my hopes of salvation and swear all this in as ample manner as you can devise