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A85038 A Fuller answer to the moderatour, wherein his argument of advantage and disadvantage is so opened, as that he is laid open too, and made manifest to be an imposter, most grosly abusing king and kingdome. Worthy all men's observation, who, with an entire heart, wish peace to both. 1643 (1643) Wing F2487; Thomason E94_17; ESTC R13077 22,058 22

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strengthens his hand and heart to accomplish his bloody resolution Therefore we must think only of our duty and conclude to ASSOCIATE our selves against these sonnes of Belial for there is no pa●lying with them The Spring is now come a time of action and heare how the Moderatour prosecutes the Advantage on the Kings side M. The King hath those that are experienced in all the designes of Warre Intelligencers in the bosome of his Antagonists or else his Agents conjure he has them that serve him to make him Great let that passe though they will make their Master the most inglorious Prince in the world The Nobles and Gentlemen beare their own charges his Army can defend its selfe till the spring and what is likely to be done then let every man judge that considers his party abroad and almost in all Counties A. Why do's the Moderatour leave it to every mans judgement whenas every man cannot judge charitably The Kings good people will thinke as charitably as possibly they can That he who is the Sheapheard of his people the King is called so I know not how often in sacred and in other books That he will not persist to hurry and spoile the Sheepe over whom God has made him a Shepheard It is enough and too much that he hath so done this winter His good people can hardly thinke That he who is the Father of his Countrey will seek all means to destroy his people whom he should respect as his Sons and Daughters Nor that he whom God hath made King hath set upon his own Throne will endeavour with his own hands to lay his own Kingdome waste to make his Eden a wildernesse Nor that he whom God has made the Head over a great people will spye out what Port is open thereby to take-in instruments of cruelty wherewith to teare the whole body because he is pleased to call some members there opposers His good people will hope as charitably as possibly can be That their King will understand his place and Office there That ruling over men he must be just ruling in the 2 Sam. 23. 3. feare of GOD Equity and justice must shine in him even as the Sun when it is at the highest whereof poor and rich may take refreshing he must be as the morning when the Sun riseth even as the morning without Clouds Thus his poore people will hope concerning him for a Prince that wanteth understanding is also a great oppressour c Pro. ●8 16. his people will think as charitably as possibly they can concerning their King and these matters notwithstanding what the Moderatour speaks to the contrary he sayes M. And it is a fond thing certainely to think his Army can want Ammunition having any Port open or that it will want money more then the other If the Kingdom hath it the Souldier will not be without it if it have not they must feed on free cost A. Here we may take a full view of the Kings Army not so terrible for multitudes as they are for injustice and violence in their hands they carry their right on their Swords point they spoile and lay waste according to the power in their hands and so have a great advantage indeed of those who must walke by rule This is enough to fray us into a Peace as I have seen some fray Sheep into the water For now that the Spring is come and such expectation of Forragne help to take part and joyn with his Forces here Surely now if there be not a Port and refuge open and GOD be praised that is alwayes open we will lay down our weapons now and make Peace with the Devill for so we may as the Answerer has told us upon as good termes as with this party which the Moderatour hath so fully described unto us and discovered before us viz. That rob and pillage and lay all waste wherever they come And now that the Spring is come they expect supplies from the Popes side who wait this Advantage That those angry people and as skilfull to destroy may joyn Forces with the Kings Armies here to maintaine the established Religion that is the pretence and the Protestation too the Laws and Liberties of this Kingdome after they have laid all waste and destroyed the Kings good people there And this is the Party with whom we would accomodate a Peace God say it not unto our charge But to the thing in hand Here we have all the Advantages on the Kings side And surely a man directed by reason cannot tell what to say unto all this But there is one Port alwayes open a Refuge whereunto the LORDS people can continually resort in assured confidence That GOD who remembred Noah and every living Gen. 8. thing and all the Cattell that was with him will remember His people also He that remembred the Beasts will remember the Sheep of His pasture He will have a speciall and peculiar eye to them who have held fast to the publike good and to their GOD and are resolved so to demeane themselves That man shall not be able more then to call them opposers Certainely the Lord will remember these The proud waters threatned to goe over their soules The floods have lifted up O LORD they have lifted up their voice the floods lift up their waves i. e. The wicked are exceeding proud and so they speake and doe as if they could doe what they have a will to doe against those whom they shall call opposers The LORD on high is mightier then the noise of many waters yea then the mighty waves of the Sea i. e. The LORD is above them And though the LORD be so high yet hath He a respect unto the lowly Though I walke in the midst of trouble Thou wilt revive me Thou shalt stretch forth Thine Hand against the wrath of mine enemies and thy right hand shall save me saith the Ps 1●8 7. Church And it is the Anchor of their hope sure and stedfast Therfore now that the Spring is come this people are not afraid with any amazement now that the Adversary by his fraud and cunning is turning the Peace as they have turned Religion and Law all to the most pernicious and cursed abuse Now are Gods people turning themselves to GOD They put no trust in a syllabl● but in GOD Who is of more Advantage to His people then are the Armies of Men and Devils against them He is GOD of Hosts Power and wisedome ar● His A a Neh. 4. 14. Great GOD and terrible a discovering GOD Let Israel say so He that told Elisha the words that were spoken in the Kings Bed-chamber b 2 King 6 12. He revealeth the deep and secret things He knoweth what is in the darknesse and the light dwelleth in Him c Dan. ● 22. His servants need not conjure their God is a discovering God Israel must say so Jacob though a worme is not afraid now no not at all
turne the Law to the most necessary use I pray what is that for I would faine know the use of the Law He tells us to the destruction of King and Kingdome it is just so when cunning crafty Lawyers will turne the Law which is a strait Rule when they will turne it and biasse it at their pleasure it is to the destruction of King and Kingdome that all may be wiped as a Man wipes a dish turning it upside downe So I say it is when the Law is turned for let the Law goe on its 2 King 21. 13. course it tends directly to the salvation of the King and Kingdome These cunning Lawyers then so crafty in all the windings of State are great Knaves I will speake it againe and great Robbers for they steale away the supporters of the Kings Throne and by turning the Law that sweet blessing into gall and wormewood they lay waste his Kingdome Is he a Thiefe that picks my pocket or breakes open my doores That he is the Law tells me so he is a thiefe what is he then that steales away the Kingdomes chiefest tre●sure its birth-right and layes open the frontiers of the Kingdome to Beasts like themselves Robbers and spoilers skilfull to destroy The Law assureth us that these are Thieves Robbers rather This puts me ●● mind of a pretty distinction between Fur a Thiefe and Prado a Robber The Fur is he who picks your pocket or your house takes away your Oxe or your Ass● does you some private injury This Praedo a Robber is he who robbs a whole Nation and what in hi● lyes ruines a whole Kingdome It minds me also what a poore little Thiefe told Alexander the great I steale some petty matters from some private men Thou dost spoile and rob whole Kingdomes I am poore and am quickly taken off and short by the neck thou art mighty and canst breake through but so it comes to passe That great Thieves send little Thieves to the gallowes and these we have met with here Men versed and cunning in the Law that know how to turne it to the most necessary use sayes the Moderatour to the most pernicious abuse say we and to the greatest disadvantage of King and Kingdome Now we may discerne what peace we shall have of this Parties making when these are the agents for an Accomodation proud ambitious busie men taken off from the publike good by favour and promises and made to turne head and taile against GOD His Truth and Peace When Spirituall Lords are agents for Peace whom the Land have sp●ed-out because they have taken Peace from the earth and now they would accomodate a Peace that they might thrust themselves into their places againe there to murther more soules as if their iniquities that way were not yet full When Achitophels are agents for Peace Men cunning and crafty in all the windings of State and so know how to turne the Law to the most pernicious abuse And when corruption is used also to fetch-in some eminent Engeneers some great Officers and most popular Men. I aske againe what kind of Peace will this be which this Party will Accomodat We need not guesse we can answer punctually to the matter A peace that has no respect to the honour of GOD to the glory of His Anointed none at all No regard to Truth to Holynesse none at all A Peace which will be as a Sword in the bones of the Righteous because thereby the Name of the LORD will be blasphemed Doe we doubt of this Looke againe upon the Kings Party whom he reckons on his side and are of his Counsell here proud Men ambitious busie Men Spirituall Lords cunning subtill crafty in all the windings of State and know how to turne the Law as they have turned Religion to the most necessary use We need no more They that are so cunning to turne the LAW of GOD and Man as they please know as well and are as skilfull to turne the Peace as well for it is as ductill through their hands as the Law is they can and will bias that also to their own ends the dethroning the LORD CHRIST and inthroning the Pope and his Prelats the setting up their Dagon the furthering their Party their desperate and bloody designes From a Peace made up by these men and by their meanes such a pack of knaves and their knavery good Lord deliver us Amen say all that know what they say and they know their GOD will doe it Their GOD and Prince of Peace will not give His people such a Peace so packt-up for they will give their LORD no rest for this thing that they may have a Peace of His giving and bequeathed unto them by their PRINCE of Peace Amen From these premises well thought upon we can commune with our own hearts and argue the Case as men that have sense left them and are directed by reason As for any higher principle we will not seeme to reach after it or care for it We will reason with our selves according to our common capacity as reasonable men Thus we reason They that hold fast to the publike good the common faith of the Kingdome these are called Rebels and Traitours and are so dealt with and injured according to the power in the hand The Law which is every mans Master and the common Treasury which dispenseth to every Man his right is turned to the destruction of King and Kingdome They who oppose with all their might the Lawes of GOD and Man are accounted good Men and Subjects They that oppose these and withstand their desperate and bloody designes are called opposers Directed by reason what is to be done now certainely it is not questionable not a matter to be parlied on whether a free people shall stand up for their own lives their Wives and children against mercilesse and bloody Adversaries who delight in proud wrath Directed by reason we cannot stand to parle about this for know we not yet that our Canaan is destroyed We Exod. 10. 7. have the same reason now as once Israel had when their Right eyes a 1 Sam. 11. 2. were demanded and afterward the Jewes b Esth 9. when designed to destruction the same reason I say to ASSOCIATE our selves there is no other way To Assemble our selves to stand up every man in his place for our lives that we may doe unto those whom the Lawes of GOD and Man call opposers as they would doe and have done to their power against them whom the King and his party call opposers for no other reason then as was said of a Poore man oppressed by the mighty because they will not receive the Adversaries whole Qui totum telum in corpus non recipisset Cic. de Fimb●●â Sword blade hilts and all into their bodies We may stand looking one upon another consulting the way how to Accomodate a Peace when in the meane time the contrary party gaines Advantage and
A FVLLER ANSVVER TO THE MODERATOVR WHEREIN His Argument of Advantage and Disadvantage is so opened as that he is laid open too and made manifest to be an impostor most grosly abusing King and Kingdome Worthy all men's observation who with an entire heart wish Peace to both Proverbs 25. 26. When he speaketh faire beleeve him not for there are seven abominations in his heart I Am not like one that taketh a Dog by the eares for I meddle with a matter belonging unto me a Prov. 25. 17. In my Countries peace I have peace and while warre is in her gates I shall have no rest in my spirit Peace is the mother blessing we all as bretheren of the same mother but for our unnaturall divisions there are great thoughts of heart are pretenders to it we seeme to follow and pursue after it The Answer to the Moderatour before this assureth us by the same word The Hea●ens and Earth have for their continuance That all the powers on Earth cannot ac●mmodate a peace there Our impieties ungodly policies Idols and lying vani●●es have thrust away our Peace and now that it is taken from the Earth it can●ot be regained till we have made Peace with Heaven And this the Answerer has ●ld us so well and so fully that it were vaine for me to meddle further in it He knowes very well so doe all that have any understanding of the Times or in the Records thereof what became of all Treaties wherein Idolaters were Agents Therefore it had beene folly for him or my selfe to meddle with a Re●itting on either Party The Kings party will not remit any thing of their Rigid governement as the Moderatour calls it in ●est and we in earnest for so it will be if their counsell● prevaile The Parliament must not remit of their Imperious Reformation the Adversary calls it so we say and God sayes so too It is not Imperious enough not high enough but we are sure they should Remit nothing there What the one parly will doe and the other should doe stands at as full a distance from an honourable Accomodation as the two Poles stand at such a distance stand these two Parties and will stand so opposite while the World stands and Rome in the World and a Papist in the Kingdome that has power in the hand there And we of the lower sort may stand with others of a contrary mind to us like Doggs at a Bay But agree we cannot till the Temple of GOD and Idols be agreed And this the Answerer hath made as cleare as the Sunne beame I shall apply my selfe only now to the Moderatours Argument handled in two pages marked with the same figure of Advantage and Disadvantage which the Pag. 16. Answerer hath touched only and no more and in refference thereunto I call this A Fuller Answer not that I would diminish one mite from the abilities of the Answerer or one graine from his Answer He will give me good leave to be fuller a● that point whereunto he has spoken little or nothing and yet it is the killing Argument for when he hath well considered what the Moderatour hath spoken there which on the suddaine he could not doe he will say That the Pen of a meane and private person could not doe better service to King and Kingdome then in opening that point and making a full Answer thereunto And the Answerer will excuse me too when he has read all That I doe not speake so comely of the Moderatour ●● he has done f●● truely I am perswaded That Charity it selfe cannot judge him to be an honest Man because directed by Reason sayes he by a low and unsavoury spirit say I this he sayes M. VVE shall find the Parliament hath nothing to cement its selfe to increase and fixe their party and keepe it from staggering but a little temporary reputation and a resolution to hold to the publike good A. I must not forbeare him here though the Answerer does he speakes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wickedly or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 foolishly wickedly if he speake in earnest foolishly if he speake in jest speaking in such serious matters He sayes We find the Parliament hath nothing to cement it selfe and fixe their party but a little temporary reputation Alas what will that doe to fix● a man for I will speake in individio and keepe him from staggering in such an agony and shaking time as this is when the wicked Prelates and such like must be shaken out of the earth where they have taken root this long time I say shaken out and that is the reason of the Earth-quake And what will keep from staggering now will a little temporary reputation doe it No no Alas it is a fluid thing no fixednesse in it at all and therefore a great deale cannot fixe the man but unfixe him rather make him as weake as water it cannot hold up the spirit and keep from staggering Shall a Parliament-man I would be plaine one that is chosen to stand for thousands to appeare for God to stand-up for his Countrey he is engaged so to doe by all the obligations that are conceivable Can this man fixe himselfe by popular applause by the esteem and repute the people have of him Can this keepe a man from staggering But I am not such a foole to question it ●● say and there is no question to be made of it A great deale of Temporary Reputation will not be sufficient to fixe a man no not a little and to keep from staggering But there is another thing which foolishly and wickedly he puts together and would cement with temporary reputation but they can c●ment no better then Gold can with Clay A resolution to hold fast to the publike good What is that The publike Faith of the King and Kingdome Religion Truth Gospell call it what you will it is the publike Good the great Trust of the Kingdome Hold fast to this and this will doe it keep from staggering This will ●●xe a man keep-up his spirit make him stand u●right though the Earth totter like a drunken Man How violent soever the motions are though words against him are Swords and deeds are ungodly and devouring yet he can appeale to GOD that he has done his worke discharged his trust he has laid out himselfe for the saving a distressed Ghurch and State he has not been biased to his private wealth thoughts of the publike have drunke up his spirits This fixeth a Man keeps him from staggering in an earthquake when the earth is smitten and the Nations are angry and the Kingdomes are mooved This I say holds up the spirit of this Man this fixeth him that he h●th doth and will stand up in the breach if he perish there he will perish in the breach in the resolution to hold fast to the publike good And see I pray you and consider how efficacious this resolution is to fixe the heart and to keep from staggering
according to the greatnesse Neh. 13. 22. of Thy Mercy I will adde I never yet s●w such a pack of knavery open before me in so narrow a compasse tending so directly to the dishonour of his Prince and to the honour of his loving subjects To the Disadvantage of the King and to the Advantage of his faithfull people such as hold fast to the publike good and are resolved so to doe And yet we have not heard halfe he goes on to shew the Advantage on the Kings side What is that M. A King can keep off the aid of forraigne States from his Parliament who desire none but for the Defence of the King and Kingdome how will he doe it The King will use all Arts having the most expert instruments for it to disable or take off that party and he may doe it very easily by corrupting some Eminent Engineere there some great Officers or most popular Men or by kindling some divisions c. A. Certainely there was never such a Knave read in Print how dares he lay open the nakednesse of his King how dares he instruct his Prince to deale corruptly To kindle divisions in other States though thereby he could soder and cement his owne how dares he put that downe for an Advantage to his Kings Crowne and Dignity which la●es his Honour in the dust Corrupt dealing how farre below a Prince The chiefe Master and dispencer of the Common-wealth that is uncomely for a Peasant Let right be done though the world and the things thereof shatter to peeces M. He tells us next We have an encouraging President of the Scots as we looke upon it but we are mistaken both in the circumstances and nature of the Case A. Truly mistaken we are I think and yet not in the nature of the Case but unhappily perhaps in the managing of it The Cause the Scots maintained was the Cause of GOD and His Anointed The Publike Faith of the Kingdome Religion Truth Gospell That is our case too But I feare we doe not make it the principall chiefe and master-piece of our worke as certainely they did for they did manage it as the Cause of GOD. We doe not follow it so with so single an eye we doe not if I observe aright keepe close to the Cause nor to our covenant we are not constant we doe not hold-fast to it we doe not shape and mould all our actions thereunto we are more for our outward liberties then for the priviledges of the Saints our eye is not single that way if I discerne aright And if so then there is a great difference in point of circumstance and manner of prosecuting this great worke but in the nature of the Cause the Scots and ours I conceive there is no considerable d●ff●rence at all He prosecutes the Argument of Advantage on the Kings ●ide h● sayes M. The King is more likely to draw to him the affections of the people in that the pressures and miscarriages of this late governement are passed and almost expiated by his acknowledgment A. Here he speaks reason and more It is the honour of a King to passe by an ●ff●nce then the duty of a subject to passe by the errour of their King and though he should not acknowledge it yet our duty to goe backward with a cloth to cover what might be uncomely in a King Doubtlesse and so his good people did and so I passe it over The Moderatour adds M. And a Promise of a Redresse A. A Promise he might have added and Protestations too as solemne as are conceivable And we will beleeve That the King speakes as he meanes his thoughts are sad and serious for the publike good we will hope and think so It is the glory of GOD to conceale a thing but the honour of Kings is to Prov. 25. 1 3. search out a matter The Heaven for height and the Earth for depth and the heart of Kings is unsearcheable The wise Man do's not tell us here what guile and deceit lies in the heart nor what an Abysse a bottomlesse thing the heart is though that be true also But how sad and serious and deep the thoughts of Kings are for the good of their subjects and establishment of Peace in their borders how fixed upon that And this we will force our selves notwithstanding what went before and what will follow anon to beleeve is the Kings purpose But this we must beleeve also That the heart is in this sence an Abysse a deepe which the wisest Man a Man and no more that ever was upon the earth could never bottome It is deceitfull above all things and we Ier. 17 9. may adde desperately wicked No wise Man did ever give trust unto it no not to his own promises A man may promise that which he thinks verily to performe as the Israelites once did speake thou unto us all that the LORD Deut. 5. 27. our GOD shall speake unto thee and we will heare it and doe it And yet all this was as the LORD said but the voice of words not the voice of the heart That flinkes away would not be engaged And yet I say a Man may promise that which he thinks verily to performe and when it comes to the point he flies off why The reason is It was the voice of words not of the heart A deceived heart has beguiled him it has turned him aside from his purpose The heart would beare no part there would endure no band or engagement We cannot forget what we read related of Lady Mary Daughter to Hen. 8. The Crowne was now unsetled and to settle it upon her own head she craved the aide of Suffolk men amongst whom she was in Fremingham Castle there They were very ready to give her their best helpe and assistance on this condition That she would make no alteration of Religion which her Brother King Edward had before established The Lady was as ready to Promise as they were to aske And such a Promise she made unto them That no alteration should be made of Religion as that I will set down the very words no man would or could then have misdoubted her That which followes is remarkable but this only to our purpose By the help of the Gospellers that is the Authours word he means the Suffolk men forward in promoting the proceedings of the Gospell she did vanqui●h the good Duke of Northumberland attained her haven and had the Crowne These Suffolke men now to whom she stood engaged next unto God supplicate their Queene now to performe her Promise from whom they received this heavy Answer so Mr. Fox calls it and I will keep to his words forsomuch saith she as you being but members desire to rule your head you shall one day well perceive that members must obey their head and not looke to beare rule over the same I will take leave to reply The Gospellers did not seeke to beare rule over her No They sought her