Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	king_n	law_n	liberty_n	6,707	5	6.5575	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A67624	An answer to certain observations of W. Bridges, concerning the present warre against His Majestie whereby hee pretends to justifie it against that hexapla of considerations, viz. theologicall, historicall, legall, criticall, melancholy, and foolish : wherein, as he saith, it is look't upon by the squint-eyed multitude.	Warmstry, Thomas, 1610-1665.	1643 (1643)	Wing W879; ESTC R38489	56,563	74

in the Church liberty liberty hath cryed downe peace there This is the very engine whereby he doth usually convey sedition and faction into the body of the State liberty liberty it that popular voyce together with a pretence of Religion whereby the peace of the State hath beene so often demolished and cast downe for my part I wish there may be a perpetuall contract betweene peace and liberty but if one must goe we had farre better part with liberty then peace And therefore by the way we may note that they are no better Polititians then they are Christians that goe about to preserve or recover liberty by Sedition their first care should be to preserve the integrity of the body and then that it may be fat and well-liking And now it is very easie for me to bring it home unto you since it is as clear as the light That however the commands of His Majestie have been either with or against the Law of the Kingdome as concerning matter of priviledge liberty the disobedience and much more the active resistance of you and your party is most clearely to the great disturbance of the State yea even almost to the destruction thereof whither it is still drawing nearer and nearer by that meanes and how foone it may come to that unhappy period we know not And it is as cleare that it hath beene very scandalous to the Church and our profession and given as much or more occasion to the enemies of God to blaspheme and exposed the Protestant Religion yea the whole profession of Christianity more to ignominy and reproach and to an odium with interesse than any action that hath beene publikely carried by the professours of the Protestant Religion since the Reformation hath ever done And therefore you must either professe your selves to be much more wise then our Saviour which I hope you dare not averre or to be much more wicked then becometh those that professe to be his Disciples which I doubt you will not admit But I pray you what commands doe you finde enjoyned you by His Majestie contrary to the Law of the Kingdome as concerning the commanding part thereof or when against the priviledge or liberty that he denyeth to them If you should aske me the like question on the other side I beleeve I could furnish you with store of instances Since I take it it may be easily proved that the whole businesse and the maine body of that designe which is now in hand against His Majestie is a bastard issue and can derive no pedigree from the Law either of God or man to make it legitimate As for His Majestie He desires nothing but that Authority to be acknowledged in Him which the Law hath placed in Him He desires to make the knowne Law of the Kingdome the onely rule of His rule and Government But it is by no meanes so on the other side if they can finde any colours from the Lawes that may put any plausible appearance of legality upon their businesse well and good but if not let the Law cry never so loud A monstrous headlesse vote of the dismembred Houses of Parliament or for a need of the House of Commons alone without or against the King and the House of Lords shall be countenance though to set forward the prosecution of their most illegall purposes And to make good their Protestation for the maintenance of the true Protestant Religion the Honour and Estate of His Majestie the Priviledges of Parliament the Lawes of the Kingdome and the Liberty of the Subject The Protestant Religion must be scorned and reproached by Brownists Anabaptists and Atheists The Honour and State of His Majestie must be exposed to the contempt of the vilest of the people The Priviledges of Parliament must be perpetually trampled on at the pleasure of some few that are predominant in the Houses by casting out the Members by meere arbitrary Votes for nothing but because they make use of that priviledge which the Law allowes and the Houses themselves begged and obtained of His Majestie at their first entrance upon their consultation for a freedome of speech nay sometime a whole side as it were of the House of Lords first forced out by terrour and tumult and then voted out upon meere pleasure And the power and authority of the House of Commons to a most palpable abusing and betraying of the trust reposed in them by His Majestie and the people of the Land reduced to a close Committee of about 15 or 16 persons some strange designe sure that they have in hand that they must get into such corners and have such cloudes over them to cover it And they say the businesse is made a night-worke too it seemes they dare not trust the Sunne with it a fit time to consult about a worke of darkenesse But they must remember either now or hereafter that there is a light over them that they see not that discovers all their secrets There is one still amongst them that they cannot vote out neither to whom light and darkenesse are both alike and the night is as cleare as the day There is an invisible notary too that takes our records of all their determinations and plots and truely they had best finde him out and prevaile with him if they can to take an oath of secrecy which they can never doe before they proceed any farther in the businesse for as sure as they live hee 'le reveale all else and a thousand to one will undoe all their plots by some counter-plot or other and will be as bad as an Elisha to the King of Syria to defeat and disappoint their most secret designes They may guesse at some thing if they will by what hath already fallen out they have had divers experiments how unprosperously their counsels thrive And therefore methinks Master Pym might well propose that question that the King of Syria did unto his servants upon the severall defeats that hee observed to have befallen him in his enterprises against Israel Will yee not shew me which of us is for the King But to save him a labour let him but the next time they meet reade the 12 first verses of the 139 Psalme and a hundred to one that will be as good as any charme they can use to discover him who it is that doth thus secretly intrude into their counsels and that doth thus defeat and make voyde all their most subtile contrivances so that hitherto for the most part they have brought forth nothing but winde though I confesse it hath beene a whirle-winde that hath disturbed and shaken the frame both of Church and State Even the very same that defeated the Counsell of Achitophel against David little doe they thinke how he sits and laughs at their most wise plots and contrivances of wickednesse Let them but looke into the second Psalme and they may see him at it methinkes if they could but put on the spectacle of the Psalmist They

may there see him as it were deriding at them and laughing at their grave and prudent madnesse whilest they with such confidence sit together as if all the wisedome in the world were in their breasts striving to breake off from themselves and others the bonds and cords of the Lords Anointed Little do they see how he blasts all their consultations how he damps all their purposes even as fast as they give them issue reade Is 8.9 10. Oh that they would at length be wise indeed and remember that woe of the Prophet Is 29.15 Woe be to them that seeke deepe to hide their counsell from the Lord and their workes are in the darke and they say Who seeth us and who knoweth us Surely your turning of things upside downe shall be esteemed as the potters clay But is this to maintaine the priviledges of Parliament to devest the Members of that power and trust reposed in them by His Majestie and the people and to commit the managing of the affaires of the Kingdome to your new device of a close Committee And to make them not onely the Masters of the rest of the Members of the Houses and them their slaves and shadowes but to make them Lords Paramount over the King and the whole Kingdome to require oathes of Allegeance unto them as of late hath most insolently and impiously beene done in London if wee are not mis-informed and to put the lives liberties and estates of all the people of the Land into the disposing of a matter of 15 men that have no such power given them either by King or Subjects and those for ought we know neither Angels nor Saints nor of the best sort of men that they may sacrifice all at their pleasure to their passions and no man must so much as aske a reason of them for feare of pressing into a secret of State Was there ever a Nation so befooled Was there ever a people brought to such a passe Is the famous and flourishing Government of this Nation by the King and the States of the Kingdome under him brought now to an Oligarchy a meere usurpation a most tyrannicall and arbitrary rule of 15 men that are made as it were absolute Lords of the Lawes the liberties the lives and estates of the whole Nation Sure they have played their cards well they have shewed themselves excellent projectors so handsomely and undescried to set up a Monopoly in themselves both of Regall and Parliamentary power a Monopoly upon the point of all the wealth and estates of the Kingdome They have carried the businesse very cunningly to bring things unto this passe and when they have done to make such fooles of the poore people whom they ride in the businesse and likely enough laugh at them in their sleeves to see how silly and simple the poore fooles are to be led so gently by the nose of them as to get them out of conscience to undoe themselves their wives and children to furnish them with money and to expose their lives unto the greatest dangers to the losse of so many thousands of them and all to make good their owne bondage and slavery to these Masters of the Close Committee En quo discordia cives perduxit miseros We have quarrelled our selves into a pretty condition But shall we be mad still Have the people of the Land abjured their senses and reason with their consciences Will they never be weary of such a miserable slavery Now for the Liberty of the Subject and the Lawes of the Kingdome you may easily guesse what becomes of them when the Priviledges of Parliament are trampled on by their owne feet Qui sibi nequam cui bonus if they make so bold with their owne you may well imagine what they doe with ours Or where I beseech you is the Magna Charta is not that a Law of the Kingdome When contrary to the very first words of that Charter the liberties of the Church are professedly invaded c. Or what is become of the Petition of Right which was so much talk't of heretofore when at the pleasure of these men without any due processe at Law the estates nay the lives of the Subject must be taken away by force and violence witnesse the late murder of His Majesties Subjects at Bristol and at London by Martiall Law which no Law putteth into their hands either without or against His Majesties Authority for that loyall designe of theirs to have delivered up those Cities unto His Majestie Or where is the Law for the Militia or for the taking away of His Majesties Ships and Forts Or where is there any Law to enable them to command any of the Kings Subjects to take up Armes against the King whose Subjects they themselves confesse themselves to be in their language though they do indeed most clearly deny it in their practise Or is it subjection to seek the ruine of a Princes Authority and His life by open force and hostility if this be subjection I pray you tell me what is rebellion or why doe they dissemble with God and man in stiling themselves His Majesties most humble and obedient Subjects when they are in actuall opposition against Him and will neither obey Him nor the Law by which hee governes if this be subjection Jacke Cade had a great deale of wrong and Wat Tyler too And Percy and Catesby were a couple of fooles that they would not come in to justifie themselves to be the Kings humble and obedient Subjects But it seemes it is no wrong at all done by the people to themselves when they obey the most unlawfull and most unreasonable commands of your party But if you obey the King against the Law you consent unto your owne wrong but we cannot so much forget our reason as to beleeve it Or doe you meane to bring in a new reason as well as a new religion But I beseech you what if I am not bound to obey him nay what if I am bound not to obey him as in some cases I confesse I am if His Majestie should command me contrary to the Law of God c. must I needs then take up Armes no certainly in such case I must submit to His Authority in the willing suffering of that punishment he shall inflict as is afore-said Or did our Saviour wrong himselfe in submitting unto Pilate or did those good Christians in the Primitive times wrong themselves when they glorified God so much in their chearfull sufferings upon this very ground If you may be Judge they shall all have actions of the case against themselves and were Martyrs in their owne wrong indeed I doubt you 'le never be guilty of such a sinne And so I have done with your first Proposition that you propose to the Malignants as you most malignantly stile them that are the Kings good Subjects And now let us see what instruction you give us in your second Cum bonis avibus What is it The great

You may see there though he deserveth favour yet his necessity doth not exempt him from being a thiefe not from the crime no nor yet from the punishment and God doth not use to prescribe penalties where there 's no offence he shall be fined in a seven fold restitution And therefore though men be truly engaged in duty to supply such exigencies you before speake of yet this doth not destroy their property as if that ceased as you imply whensoever such occasion or necessity is present but obligeth their duty And therefore in those cases where you have not or cannot gaine their consent you must leave them to performe their owne duties or else you will transgresse yours whether you be King or Parliament or a single Subject But perhaps you will say that the Parliament hath in them a devolution of all the Subjects propriety so as to dispose of their estates to publique purposes if you meane by the Parliament the King and the Houses I grant so that they doe it by Act of Parliament And you must take in the body of the Convocation if the Clergy be Subjects or have any liberty or property for the disposing of the estates of the Clergy But if you meane by the Parliament the two Houses without the King I deny that they have the consent of the Subjects for the disposing of their estates since they were chosen by the Subjects not to manage the publique affaires of themselves but in a Parliamentary manner order and motion to joyne with His Majestie and to doe things by His consent by Act of Parliament and therefore since they have not His consent for the disposing of the estates of the Subjects as they now doe Nor doe it by Act of Parliament which cannot be without the King They can plead no consent of the Subject who gave them their power onely in that sense and to that purpose as afore-said If you are rationall you understand this if impartiall honest you will acknowledge it give over abusing the people with your Observations And here the people may see who meane best unto their properties and liberties since you put us to plead for them whilest you oppose them for the advantage of your party And yet will they never open their eyes but still runne on madding upon their owne ruine I pray you speake to them to have a little more wit and honesty let them have your example it may be it may worke much with them But what if I should grant you your Theses in your owne sense Yet it will trouble you exceedingly to prove your Hypothesis you are so farre from doing it that for ought appeares you were ashamed to mention it You leave us to collect it but prove it I pray you for your credit is not so great that we are bound to take your bare word though you gave it us never so plainly Prove it then that the money and goods that is forced by your party from the poore Subjects is for the supply of any of those necessities you speake of Is it for the supply of the necessity of the Lord to maintaine a Warre against his Substitute acknowledged so by the Scots in their late Petition to His Majestie and directly contrary to Gods command Rom. 13. Is it for the supply of the necessity of the Lord to maintaine practises of Sacriledge demolishing of Churches violating of Sepulchres to set forward a disturbance of Gods Service in his house to abandon the daily use of publike Prayers where they have beene used and whereby God hath received so much glory and the people so much comfort and to bring in prophanenesse or at the best to undertake a reformation by a way God allowes not when it hath beene offered in a peaceable and fit manner or where doe you finde that the sword is to be moderator or that reformation in Religion is to be founded in bloud Or is it for the supply of the necessity of the Law to nourish a Warre clearely against Law both in it selfe and in the purpose and drift of it in it selfe as being without and against the Kings command and against His Person and Authority who is declared by Law the supreame Governour and so the supreame Moderator of the Sword in the drift or purpose which we understand not at all if it be not to abridge the King of that preeminence and authority which His Ancestours have and He ought to enjoy by the Law of the Kingdome As the power of the Militia of consenting or with-holding His assent to the allowance or dis-allowance of Acts of Parliament of choosing Privie Counsellors c. Some say necessity hath no Law but I am sure the Law hath no necessity of the plunder of mens estates to any such purpose Is it for the supply of the necessity of liberty of the Subject that their liberty should be taken away to cure men of their diseases by killing them or to cast them into the Sea for feare they should suffer ship-wracke Is it for the necessity of the cause or the defenders what cause is it I beseech you that doth necessitate any such thing is it Religion have wee not beene Protestants all this while why doe you not confute the Articles of the Church of England it may be indeed your new Synod will doe it for you Hath not the truth flourished amongst us all this while till of late you your selfe seeme to confesse it if there be any sense in your words in your next Paragraph as wee shall see anon Who is it than that goes about an alteration might you not have thanks if you would let it flourish still as heretofore it hath done or if any thing be to be mended hath it not been offered what 's that cause then the necessity whereof doth lay such fanges upon the Estates of the Subjects or who are those defenders you speake of I am sure I know who is the Defender of the Faith under God and then remember who it is that you oppose surely you had need explaine your selfe for for ought we can yet learn by you the Subjects have good right to keepe their goods unto themselves for any necessity that you can plead it doth neither alter their Property nor engage them in duty to impart for the maintainance of this dismall Warre against His Majesty They are much more engaged to impart them to Him that stands for the defence of the true Protestant Religion together with the Law and Liberty of the Subjects This is the cause and this is the defender that may much better plead necessity of supply But you have two strings to your bow and so you had need for you see one of them will not hold And what 's your second let us see what that will doe Your money shall not helpe to kill That 's the resolution of the squint-eyed multitude well say you when you meane ill but what 's your answer why you tell them that

if they hinder the killing quelling of those who would both kill and quell you yours your Religion Kingdome They become friends of Gods enemies and ours and resolve to make peace with them with whom God hath resolved to have warre How doe you prove that why Exod. 17. ult what saith that place why these are the words which you leave us to finde out there for he sayd because the Lord hath sworne to have warre with Amalek from generation to generation Go to now where does your great strength lie or how may a man doe to bind this Sampson of yours This invincible perswasive or reply or what you will call it wherewith you doe so unmercifully seize upon the judgments of the poore blear-eyed people Wee 'le examine it a little Your drift is or should be to shew that the resolution of the people is not good that their money shall not help to kill in your designe for that must be your meaning now how do you drive them from this resolution why thus you shew them very learnedly that their money must help to kill c. how prove you that why because they may not hinder the killing quelling of them c. well it seemes then you are all for killing and quelling wee might have hoped of more favour you might have given the people leave to have thought you more mercifull but is this good Logique they may not hinder therefore their money must help is there no meane betweene helping and hindering consider it well and you 'l finde there is but that 's your weaknesse or perhaps your hast wee 'l pardon it and allow it that force it wants But how doe you prove they may not hinder the killing quelling of the Kings Party for that 's your meaning without all question why because they are those that would both kill and quell you yours your Religion your Kingdome wee need your help a little here wee understand you in part your Us there stands for your Party I conceive and your Ours for your Wives Children Friends Family and the like but we cannot tell yet what you meane by our Religion nor very well what you meane by our Kingdome your Commentary here a little I beseech you doe you meane by Your Religion the Brownists or the Anabaptists or the Familists or the Seperatists or the Libertines or the Papists for it is thought you have of all these sorts in your Party so that your party is very party-coloured or doe you meane that which wee doubt you have too little to doe with the true knowne Protestant Religion or what do you meane by Your Kingdome is this Kingdome any more yours then His Majesties or ours or what Kingdome is it that you meane I presume you will say that by Your Religion you meane the true Protestant Religion and by Your Kingdome this Kingdome of England that is so denominated a Kingdome from that good King that God hath set over it and if so then give me leave to aske you first how it appeares to you that the Kings party would kill you or yours or that they would quell you doe you but quell your rebellious spirits and I dare warrant you for either killing or quelling by His Majesty or His Party if He can help it any further then the Law armes Him against you nay you may assure your selves His Majesty hath that grace and clemency in Him that will moderate the severity of the Law too and it is not best for you to deny Him that power you have had good experience of His Majesties mercy if you would thinke on 't some have thought He hath beene cruell to Himselfe in being mercifull to you I but I hope all His mercy will returne at length into His owne bosome you had best take heed you slight it not too much lest if it be kept too long before you make use of it that good and pleasant Wine turne Vinegre You may doe well to remember that mercy loves not to stand too long at the doore clemency is not easily wearied but if it once grow throughly angry it may prove the greatest fury If you will needs put His Majesty to His choice which of the two He will have spilt He knowes there is difference of price and value betweene rebellious and loyall bloud And if there be no help for 't but that you will worke your ruine the price of the safety and preservation of His faithfull people you may thanke your selves for setting up such a Market I know not how to helpe you but in truth I shall be sorry for you But you may prevent it if you will it is but returning to your obedience and loyalty and I doubt not but shall find His Majesties sword that is now most unwillingly drawn against you for your correction ready most cheerfully to exercise it selfe in your protection and so you and yours may be safe if you please and the Subjects may keepe their money for better purposes then to imploy it to set forward the killing of men it was sure ordained for a meanes of preservation not for the instruments of ruine and destruction But your Religion your Religion That will be kill'd and quell'd if this cry were not in your mouthes I could scarce thinke you to be Rebels for is not this the usuall accoutrement of rebellion to march under the colours of Religion at least in pale or in quarter with some others as liberty perhaps or some such like because Religion will not of it selfe take with all palats but I pray you doe not beleeve that this vizour will alwayes be undiscovered this velvet maske hath beene so much used that the nap is all worne of almost and the bare face may be seene through it This pretence of Religion is growne so stale and hath beene so often made the lure of sedition that the very boyes can almost spy out the imposture and therefore your wiser way will be to get some new fashion for your strumpet unlesse you meane to have them throw stones and rotten apples at her alas this is an old trick to begin mischiefe in the name of God In nomine Domini incipit omne malum is too old and too true a saying but let them take heed that set it forward in such a stile for this is something worse then to take Gods name in vaine and then they are not like to be held guiltlesse And amongst others you had best be wary for whilst you make God and Religion the stile of this horrid businesse your whole progresse is a kind of a running blasphemy nay perhaps I could easily show you that in many of you is a running perjury in those that have taken the Oaths of Alleageance and Supremacy further answer I cannot give you so fully as perhaps I might if I did but know what stamp you are of onely this let me tell you first for the Protestant Religion as it hath been for these many yeares in this

Kingdome under the successive and sucesfull raignes of three gracious Monarchs without interruption untill now so if you hinder not His sacred Majesty hath given us good assurance and wee have good witnesse of it even God himselfe besides many thousands upon earth that it shall not be killed nor quelled but maintained and if ever any thing fall out otherwise I am perswaded wee shall have to thanke such as you for it which God forbid And for those other things that walke under the name of Religious I hope His Majesty will by Gods assistance take some good course for quelling of them as well Popery as Brownisme and the rest of that rabble that wee can scarce tell what to call Both God and his good people doe expect from His Majesty that He will be vigilant for the extirpation of these by all due and lawfull meanes and that He will not admit of the least shew of a toleration of them but yet wee doe beleeve His Majesty will finde out more proper wayes than the sword for the rooting out of those errors from amongst us and if they can be but quiet and keepe themselves from sedition and corruption of others it's like His Majesty will shed no mans bloud meerely for His opinion but will rather take care for the application of the due meanes for their conversion and so leave them to the mercy of the Lord for wee beleeve His Majesty hath other principles and those farre more gracious and god-like than those that you seeme to walke by Though he be never so zealous for Gods house yet wee conceive He doth not think that He should have any thanke from God if He should build up Sion with bloud His Majesty we hope will rather remember that David was not suffered to build the Lord a Temple because his hands had been imbrued in bloud that the Temple was to be built by a Solomon a King of Peace and in a raigne of Peace and in a peaceable manner without all noyse and tumult not so much as the noyse of an axe or an hammer to be heard in that holy businesse much lesse of a Sword or Speare or of those thunder-emulating instruments which have beene the brood of cruelty of these last times of the world wee beleeve His Majesty will not willingly make use of any such instruments as these in that worke unlesse the malice of the adversaries compell Him to it Indeed it may fall out that Sanballat and Tobiah with their complices of Arabians Ammonites and Ashdodites may put Nehemiah's work-men to their weapons as well as their tooles in the building of the Walls of Jerusalem and to set them upon the businesse with a Trowell in one hand and a Sword in the other that the builders should have their weapons girded by their sides and so build and that Nehemiah may be enforced to set a Trumpeter by him but this was onely for the defence of the worke not to offer any violence to any but to repell it in case it were offered by any unto them neither doe wee know of any violence intended of that sort you seeme to suspect either against you or your religion as you call it be it what it will if you will be but quiet and not rayse tumults in Church or Common-wealth nor quarrell with other men because forsooth they will not put out their eyes that they may be as blind as you if you can 〈…〉 alone and be quiet you may if you will needs be let alone and be quiet in your folly for any matter of bloud or the like And yet wee beleeve His Majesty will not let England become an Amsterdam Truth shall have more encouragement then Errour it is fit that those dotards that will persist should be made sensible it is mercy not to let them perish upon too easie termes this is not to cut them off from the clemency of God but to hasten them unto it and this may be done without killing I hope and therefore wee beleeve you fright the people in vaine and make bugbeares of your owne fancies when you seeme to perswade them they shall find a bloudy persecution for religion but I hope they will be wiser then to thinke it is any good warrant for them to be rebellious because you are pleased to be fearefull and suspicious It is no wisedome for them to cast their goods out of their vessells because you are pleased to dreame of a storme they might likely provide much more for their safety by casting out such a rebellious Prophet as you are that have out-run the errand the Lord sent you on are become a fugitive from his work like Jonas who when the Lord sent him to Niniveh runnes to Joppa and from thence is bound for Tarshish It were happy for you if some storme or other might but send you into your right course againe But I would faine have done with you you cannot make it appeare that the King or His Party hath any mind to kill you or yours nor to quell the true Protestant Religion no nor yet to divorce you from any of your phantasies by the sword admit any of His Army would yet I am confident you may looke for more mercy from His Majesty and if you hinder not He may have power answerable to His goodnesse but your Kingdome is in danger they would quell the Kingdome who are those I beseech you if you will not tell me I can tell you who they are even they that go about to demolish or diminish the majesty and authority of the kingly Throne for so much as they take from the power and eminency of the King so much they quell and destroy the Kingdome for it is the King and the regall power that gives it the name of a Kingdome they than that goe about to turne the King into an empty stile or a meere shadow of regaity and to change the regall Government into a popular State or Aristocraticall those are they that go about indeed to destroy the very essence of a Kingdome looke than who they are that are against the King and against Monarchy those are they that go about to quell the Kingdome but perhaps you meane not by the Kingdome this or that forme of Government but the people and inhabitants and in this sense who are they that would quell the Kingdome but even they that have beene the Authors of this most bloudy and unnaturall Warre against His Majesty that have divided the Kingdome against it selfe that have most mercilessely sacrificed the lives of the poore seduced people of the Land to their passionate and ambitious or malicious designes they that have abused both Parliament and people by endeavouring to make them flaves to their humorous resolutions against their duty both to King and people they that have stricken at the very foundation of the State and Government and brought the Common-wealth into a meere Chaos and a confusion these these are they that would