in his Speech My Liberty and Property is dear to me and I 'le support the K's Prerogative too and I hope we shall remove those people Briars and Thorns who scratch you in your intentions against Popery which I see we cannot prevent without this Bill to exclude the Duke c. And therefore I am for it Col B. I am heartily glad to find that the Zeal of the House still continues for the preservation of the Protestant Religion My Opnion is that we cannot preserve the Protestant Religion with a Popish Successour to the Crown no more than Water can be kept cold in the hot Pot but I would do it in all the decent ways to come at it The King recommends to you in his Speech to look back to what he formerly said as to the Succession c. If there be no other way to prevent Popery but a Bill to Exclude the D. c. from the Succession c. my Opinion is That 't will be more decent to our Prince and better for those who sent us hither that before the Bill be brought in to give it the honour of a day to consider of the Expedients to save Religion under a Popish Successor For that I shall expect from some Honourable Persons but if none come then you may proceed to this Bill with more honour Therefore I move to appoint a day to consider of it Sir J. E. I should not have troubled you but from what was spoke last By all means just and lawful we are to secure our Religion and properties We see the great attempts made upon us from Rome and we must do something for our farther security I will not speak of the former Bill of Excluding the D. c. nor of the K.'s Speech that gives you latitude for Expedients and I would not offer any if I thought they would not do as well as that Bill which is but an Expedient But because the K. has declared against that Bill and invited you to Expedients I would not put that Bill any more to the hazard of rejection but think of some Expedients W. H. I can see no Expedient to save Religion and preserve the K's person but the Bill to Exclude the D. c. All Gentlemen I believe would be willing as to the Manner and save the Matter But when our Prince is encompassed all with the D.'s Creatures the D.'s safety is because of their dependencies The danger is not from Popery but from the King 's being encompassed with the D.'s Creatures I would proceed in this matter with all decency and since a day is moved for pray let 's have time to consider Sir C. M. You are invited by the K.'s gracious Motion to consider how to preserve Religion c. I desire we may not now put a question for bringing in a Bill to seclude the D. c. else properly we cannot consider any Expedients for preservation of Religion B. W. The consideration of the preservation of the Protestant Religion is of that weight that though we have shew'd our zeal to it yet I would not run upon a thing of this great nature without consideration They who advised the K's Speech must answer for it The words of the Speech are If any other way can be found out c. Vide I think those about the King have don enough to ruine Him and Us But I would have the K. see we are so far from putting him upon that stress that we would help him out I think that Speech the K. read to us to have nothing of the King 's in it He is a better man and a better Protestant than to do it of himself therefore I would not put our Resolution as flat and as short as that is in the King's Speech The King has gon as far as this Resolution in his Speech comes to in his Declaration about Dissenters formerly and yet from the Reasons from hence he was perswaded to revoke it If persons have been so prevalent as to put the King upon this Speech let me see those persons so forward to bring the King into a thing to help him out if they do not I hope the King will lay the blame at their doors and not at ours If they could have told us what Expedients were necessary they would have put them into the King's Speech and the Resolution-part of not altering the Succession would have been left out A little consideration of this great matter can do us no hurt and will satisfie the people without doors But if they about the K. can find out no Expedients I hope he will lay them aside and take their counsel no more Put not off this Consideration farther than Saturday and if they can find us out an Expedient betwixt this and then 't is very well H. P. I have always observed that the most deliberate Proceedings have had the best success here and the best reputation abroad I am as willing as any man to come to this moved for but with deliberate steps For my share though I hear of Expedients abroad yet I cannot conceive that a Title or name can destroy the nature of Expedients But the King in his Speech has held you out a Handle vide And I would not give those about the Kings occasion to say that this House running into a Breach with him I would pay the King all the Respect in the world and you cannot avoid setting apart a time to consider Expedients and I would not mix any thing with the Debate that day I think to morrow is too soon to debate it I shall propose Saturday for the Consideration and then let us do what 's fit in so weighty a matter R. H. This is a matter of great weight and I would adjourn it to to morrow For the reason of proposing Expedients I do not move to Adjourn for that for it 't is as little reason to me to expect any as 't was the last Parliament That Parliament gave reasons why no Expedients could be of any effect but this Bill of Exclusion and that Parliament saw enough of Expedients There are a great many talked of abroad in the streets and won't you hear Expedients What can a man say less with any modesty But no man can say but we are in danger of losing our Religion if the D. should come to the Crown But the Question before you is Whether you 'le put off this Debate Therefore I move that the House will take into Debate the security of the Protestant Religion to morrow Sir F. W. All that I shall propose is That you would so word the Question as to have no diminution to the Motion made for the Bill c. upon your Books nor prejudice nor reflection When this Bill past the last Parliament it was Nemine Contradicente and most of this Parliament were of the last For Expedients 't is a word mightily used and talked of and willingly embraced but none have been proposed
expectation of our safety but the Bill to Exclude the Duke and therefore I move for it c. H. C. If this Debate must be proceeded in with the Regularity and Circumspection it ought to be you have transgressed the Order of the day already Several Gentlemen tell us that there is no Expedient but none tell us what is All men believe the Religion of the Duke is as fatal athing to the Nation as can be should he come to be King and what do they deserve that perverted the Duke But let us consider what depends upon this House and let us proceed like men If we are of opinion that Exclusion of the Duke is the best way to preserve Religion this House cannot do it alone if we cannot have that best way we are guilty to our Country if we take none If a man be sick and so ordered that nothing must be taken but by direction of three Physitians and two are for giving him the Jesuits Powder and one against it and he thinks he does the duty of his profession but they all three not agreeing it must the Patient take nothing And we are but one part of the Legislative power But for Expedients I remember in the Dutch War the House went into a grand Committee to consider Expedients for raising Money to save Land-Tax A man whoever he be that proposes an Expedient will desire leave to make good that Expedient and must speak it may be often to it but if it prove to be none that man will be trampled upon A Committee of the whole House will be most proper for this purpose If there be a dispute which question shall take place if the first be denied the other may take its place but not one to exclude all the rest as this Bill will do Let it be Exclusion or Limitation or what it will your order is general to find out means against Popery and preservation of the Kings Life When men press on so fast they may come late into their Inn by tyring their Horses Let a grand Committee try Expedients else 't is not consultare but dicere I am of a contrary opinion of having this great matter Debated in the House and for the reason I have told you and if Gentlemen you will do reasonably a grand committee is your way to proceed in J. S. You have had Motions proposed for Expedients but there is not a word of Expedient in the Order and that answers it The Order was read Those who were here present when the Order was made have left it free for a Bill or any other thing and therefore they are not tyed to have Bills or offer Expedients against Bills To the simile of the three Phisitians that two could do nothing without the third though one was for one thing and another for another if the case be such that the two in the judgment of the third did offer nothing to the sick man but what was Mortal he ventures upon his own Disreputation to joyn with them However the three Phisitians do not agree we never yet saw any thing from the Lords in answer to this Bill all Expedients have hitherto been to increase our fears of the King and to hasten our undoing and when all was at stake to have Parliaments Dissolved that was an ill Expedient Those who were near the King and altered their own judgments and are come over to this Bill c. they are all put away and those about the King now are for Expedients The Councel of the Jesuits they have their end by disappointing the Kingdom and by raising the fears of the people either to take up with a false security as good as none and so to impose Popery upon them that way or to bring the Kingdom into disorder When Religion and Laws and all are at the dispose of a Popish Successor the Kingdom will be in great disorder that the Protestants will not be able to enjoy them quietly the Papists have no surer way to effect their end For the House to go into a grand Committee 't is a Motion of great weight If you deny it it looks as if you would precipitate and deny free Debate If you accept it you will ye under the inconveniency of delay and who knows how long we have to sit If we were sure of our time to sit two or three Months I would be willing to go into a grand Committee But as to the ill umbrage of refusing a Committee 't is not like other cases I would have an instance if ever in a thing of this weight the House went into a grand Committee This matter of Excluding the Duke has been depending two Parliaments and any other way for our security would have been accepted Nothing else could be found out the last Parliament the whole Kingdome was satisfied with nothing else And now what reason is there to go into a grand Committee for a thing so often debated to the bottom No man can deny but a grand Committee is proper when something of an Expedient is offered but to offer it generally is as if the thing was never consulted nor debated before I never saw any Expedient but this Bill nor any reason offered against the Bill but set it aside and think of Expedients Therefore pray proceed according to the Order L. G. If any Gentleman have Expedients I desire he would propose them if they be of any weight they will deserve well of the House if it seems to them they will give us security I would be glad to hear them Sir J. E. When the Motion was first mide for going into a grand Committee to hear Expedients c. I did then second it for this reason because of the Honour of the place I serve in I did understand by the Kings Speech there was Expedients I am unwilling to determine the sense of any man who am of the weakest But a Motion was firsted and seconded for a Committee of the whole House and when that is done I shall offer something T.B. I must speak against that Question of a grand Committee pray keep to the Order of the day Expedients that have been moved for already as the Jesuits powder for an Ague c. but our Disease is a Plurisie and we must let blood Let us go to what will do our business and it may be we must have other Expedients to fortifie the bill I would have the House rightly understand that those who are against going into a grand Committee and for Excluding the Duke from the Succession and those who are for a grand Committee are for him to succeed and put the Question if you please Sir F. R. To Exclude the Duke from the Succession c. that is a good Expedient to prevent Popery pray let that or others that shall be presented be considered Sir T. M. If there be but one Expedient offered I do not think that ground sufficient to go into a grand Committee to
consider it but possibly there may be several This Bill is agreed to be an Expedient and I have known that in a business of less weight then this you have gone into a Committee c. If an Expedient must be offered in the House you cannot but allow Gentlemen to make replies in a fair Debate to answer Objections And if you in the House will depart from that from the House or Committee are equal to me But our Debate is broke one Gentleman said he would be content with a Committee if not intended for delay I do not doubt but this day will have its full effect When 't was moved on Thursday last for this day to take into consideration the preservation of Religion without naming Bill or Expedients it gave a great credit to your work I would have no discouragements upon people that have Expedients by not going into a grand Committee R. H. We are perplexed in having several Questions on foot I shall put you in mind that this Bill now proposed is no new nor strange thing Our bunness I suppose is to find out Expedients to preserve the Protestant Religion and the Kings Person here is a way has past two Parliaments already a way no reasonable objection has ever been made against it and a way rejected by the Lords in gross without offering any other But I doubt if other Expedients be tryed if they prove false we shall endanger the Protestant Religion Some have said that Gentlemen apprehend they have Expedients why then may not they 〈◊〉 propounded that the House may judge whether 't will be worth going into a grand Committee to consider them But if Gentlemen will have it their own way or not at all I 'le tell you how this looks as if they were something one way and nothing another but he does not discharge his duty to his Countrey that does â—e therefore if Gentlemen have any Expedients pray let them offer them Sir J.E. If the House be of a mind not to enter into a grand Committee I shall offer my little mite as 't is every mans duty to offer Expedient that has any I doubt not but other men have and better than me but forego not into a grand Committee I shall offer what I have I do apprehend by the Bill proposed that 't is a Bar to the Succession of the Duke and places the Succession in the next Heir I shall propose if you please not the Name of King but the power as a Regency in the next Heir 't is no new thing in Spain and France and God knows we have seen it done in our Kingdom If the Administration be placed safe in the person that may have no power to resign to the Duke and may have full power and authority at the death of the King to call that Parliament which sate last who shall have time to sit to confirm this by Act of Parliament I hope this may be done and may be done safely if you can contrive such a way Sir N. C. As I understand 't is proposed that the Government shall be in Regency during the Dukes Life I would be satisfied if the Duke would not submit to that whether those that fight against it are not Traytors in Law Sir W. P. I think this you are upon a matter of great weight some Expedient has been offered you I believe as yet but a crude one and I cannot imagine will ever be an effectual one He that moved it tells you he hopes when drawn into better form it may do what you desire It Excludes the Duke and in his place the next in the Succession shall have the Regency in him But our last act left it in the Law Consider what is a Regency I never heard of it but of a Prince in possession in Minority or Lunacy and it has generally been very unfortunate But to talk of a Regency in futuro in condition and limitation of time I never heard of This Expedient does not answer the Kings Speech nor your former Bill they make the King but a shadow and they divide Person from Power our Law will not endure it The Person divided from the Power both will be courted and who that next Heir will be we know not The King leads you to consider Expedients but such as will consist with the safety and dignity of Monarchy This must be two Kings at the same time one by Law and another by Right Portugal gives us some instance of Regency where the King was put into prison for Miscarriages in the Government and his next Heir made Regent but there is a vast difference in these two cases The King of Portugal was set aside for personal Miscarriages not for being a Papist and which is another thing that was present this is to come If this Question be to let the Duke in and then make a Question whether Allegiance be due to him but I am afraid that unless we be true to those we represent from whom by Express direction most of us are to pursue the Bill c. we shall not be avowed in what we do The Bill c. has been under consideration of all the people of England and perhaps all the Protestants of Europe all the Wits of Learned men have made their Objections against it yet notwithstanding all people are stilof the same mind And now we run upon the most mis-shapen thing which it may be two or three years before we understand it and we may expect to have an operation of it no body knows when I see very little weight in it unless improved by some other person therefore I am for the Bill Sir T. Litt. We are flying at a great matter To fight against the Duke if he should be King God forbid We have been told three or four times of Directions Gentlemen have had from their Principals to be against all those things of Expedients and to insist upon the Bill of Exclusion c. I would not have that way much cherished 't is an uncertain thing and no footsteps remain of any papers from their Country I take the meaning of that going down is to consult their Neighbours for Direction what to do I hear talk to day of Parliaments of France but this way is as dangerous like the States of Holland to consult with their Principals before they resolve most unusual and of very dangerous consequence A Regency has been proposed to secure the Administration of the Government in Protestant Hand so as not to alter the constitution of the Monarchy and this alters the Constitution of the Monarchy the least imaginable A Regency in Room of a King and the Monarchy goes on We have had Regent Protectors call it what you please Primus Consiliarius in case of a Minor Prince but I propose not this If you alter the Government I am against it but here is offer'd a Regent in place of the King or transferring the Government But it may be said
Where shall the Duke be all this while That point I think is pretty well over there is no design of Seclusion The Lords would have Banished him 600 Miles from England The Duke has an Estate and He as all men beside loves it and will not part with it and will do nothing to forfeit it But your Bill of Exclusion secludes the Duke and the Crown then is to fall as it does fall What is then the Case You must imagine either his own Daughter will take up Arms if the Duke attempt the Crown or some bodie else will to keep him out and that will raise such an Anger in the Dukes mind whether will they shelter themselves Not under his Daughter they must naturally shelter themselves and run into Armes Cromwel's way was to keep up an Army of Sixty thousand Men for his security especially an Army flesht with Victory And they that have it will keep it We are not in the condition we were formerly when the Lords cherished their Tenants by good Leases they could raise an Army send them home to their houses when they had done what they were raised for But we are now in another way raise an Army and they wil think of their own Interrest to be kept up But if it fall out thus your Bill leaves it very lose Assoon as this Bill is past suppose the Regency established in the Princess of Orange or the Lady Ann and in the same Law a Commission be sent over to take an Oath from her strictly to execute this Law you are then not left in that loose manner you will be by the Bill c. 'T will be a far less matter for her to save a Family before Misfortune come upon it than to take the Government upon her afterwards in the trouble of an opposition But it may be said What needs all this 't is just nothing but retaining the name of K. in an exiled man But 't is less violation in her to Govern in her Fathers Name than to take the Kingdom from him It may be wondered why in Portugal upon Deposing that King there was a great Debate of the three Estates though they hold not the proportion as they do here In this great Debate the Commons were for Don Pedro to be King the Nobility to have him Regent the Ecclesiasticks Demurr'd but at last both came over to the Nobility But Don Pedro stuck here and would still leave his Brother the Title of King and would leave nothing of shelter to force Nature too far There are Reserves in the King's Speech I cannot but take notice of by the way There is another thing to be considered Some will be paying a deference to the Sacredness of a Crown for Governments sake This Objection looks like something He is like to be five hundred Miles off c. and a Law to take up Arms against him How was that Law that the King and Parliament have power to dispose of the Crown it was then an Opinion amongst the Lawyers that the Crown was unal enable but when that Law was made that Opinion was damn'd under a penalty though 't was a standing Max'me before that Statute was made If so this new Act will be a Warrant for what is proposed as that was for the other For my part I have had the all fortune to have the wind in my face and to be against the generall Opinion and stream of the world and having had for some time no share in the Government I may speak possibly more freely then they that have 'T is a great Crime to spy things too soon which makes men apt to run from one Extream to another I have proposed the best Expedient I can and most safe but I am afraid if you do nothing in this great Affair now it is started I 'll graple with neither of the Expedients but if you do nothing but let the thing lye loose you 'll gratifie the Jesuits by our confusion and the commonwealths men to shuffle the Cards again But if you go into some Medium both these sort of men will be undone Sir W. J. I have beard with great Attention this very Learned and able Gentleman I am really of opinion if any better Expedient could have been found out than what has been proposed that he as assoon as any Gentleman would have proposed it But I am amased that so learned a Gentleman should not see through this Expedient That which I take for the Expedient its the Duke to retain the name of King and the next Heir to be under the Title of Regent or Protector What does he mean by next Heir For any thing I know and believe it is the Dukes Daughter but it may be the Duke may have a Son Either I have a great cloud upon my understanding or this is strange that if the Duke have a Son and shall he at a Day a Month or Year old be Regent Suppose the Princess of Orange come over and she dye the Prince of Orange has no Right to the Regency and she leave a Child and that Child be Regent that Child must have a Protector and so there will be a Protector of a Protector But Sir we are told that nothing but to keep up the Greatness of the Government makes them go from the Bill of Exclusion to this Expedient But is it so great and pleasing a thing to wear a Crown and be called King and have no Authority It is much worse than to loose an actual Crown and the possession of it If the Bill pass and the Duke be Banished 500 Miles off it must be out of England if the name will please him in Givility beyond the Sea he shall be King and it will be as much to his purpose boyond the Sea to be called King only as here But for the Security of his Estate being here He that would venture the loss of a Kingdom for Religion will his Estate too that 's but a weak ty It is less injustice to take away the Crown and power from him than to have of both but the Name If you allow the Duke the Name it will imply a Right therefore for that to be used as an Argument is strange But why is this Contention and all this ado I wonder for an empty Name But I am afraid this Expedient is a kind of Jesuit-Powder I do not think the Gentlemans Intent or Opinion is for the Jesuits but a wise man may over-do sometimes If you do not Exclude the Dukes Title the Duke is King still and then will Learned Lawyers tell you that by 1 H. 7. all Incapacity is taken away by the possession of the Crown If you take not away the Discent of the Crown and that the Duke has a Tittle to be King then without Doubt all incapacities fail but if the thing may be effectually done I am as willing to exclude him the Name as well as the power but Lawyers know no
of the indictment I must confess that with the carriage of this I have enlarged my suspition for I cannot but suspect unusual ways The worst of Mankind with all his Villanies about him has been pardoned Is there in this any provocation given by us but something depends upon this Man as well as upon the Bill to day When you was told by Sec J. He would not carry the Impeachment c. and the House would make no breach by taking any severe course against him but past it over with temper sure we must not lay down all prosecution of the Plot and say that the Protestant Religion shall have no mercy Fitzharris may merit mercy by confession and if his breath be stopt by the Lords I am sorry that people will say if it were not for the Lords Fitzharris might have discovered all the Conspiracy and the Protestant Religion might have been saved I Move therefore that in your Vote you will not only say That denying this Impeachment c. tends to the subverting the Constitution of Parliament but of the Protestant Religion also I hope we shall proceed in this with the same calmnesse of mind that every man does wish who would not lose his Religion Serg. M. A Plot we all know has been on foot in England and I am sure in Ireland too and what Arts and Crafts have been used to hide the Plot It began with Murder and Perjury and false Subornation this of Fitzharis is a second part of that We have sent up an Impeachment against Fizharris and the Lords deny to receive it In effect they make us no Parliament if we are the prosecutors and they will not heare our Accusation t is strange when their own Lives as well as ours are concerned in the Plot. The same day we Impeach Fitzharris the Lords Vote we shall not prosecute him Now when all is at stake we must not prosecute if this be so Holland and Flanders must submit to the French and they run over all This is a strange Breach of priviledge and tends to the Danger of the King's Person and Destruction of the Protestant Religion Sir T. P. This of Fitzharris is a considerable Confirmation of the Former Plot I call it the Old Plot but 't is still new upon us This is a confirmation of the designe to Murder the King and the Duke consenting to destroy his own Brother and our King I have often heard it wisper'd that this Plot was Madames Designe at Dover 'T is plain that Justice Godfrey was Murdered and that the Army at Black heath was to destroy the Protestants in Holland and to awe the City of London When Fitzharris was in an Inclination to discover what he knew and two or three Honourable Members went to Examine him this man was fetch'd the next day to Whitehal and sent to the Tower and so we were deprived of all farther hopes of discovery We have received the Information he gave and now that the man may be in no capacity to discover farther they stop his mouth I move therefore that you will declare That if any Judge Justice or Jury proceed upon him and be found Guilty that you will declare them Guilty of his murder and betrayers of the rights of the Commons of England Vid. the Printed Vote Sir W. J. Now the House has done as much as is fit for the Lords but we do not know how Inferiour Courts will proceed therefore I 'll propose a Vote That if any Inferiour Court shall proceed c. which past Vid. the Print I would not give occasion to people to say we do things in an extraordinary manner 'T is late and pray let 's Adjourn Munday March 28. 1681. The Bill for Excluding the Duke c. read Sec. J. NO Bill was ever offred in Parliament of the like nature so much against the Justice of the Nation it condemns a Man never heard and then 't is a Law made ex post facto Very extraordinary against the Fundamental Justice of the Nation and not only that but against the wisdom of the Nation and will introduce a change of the Government If the Duke will try to cut this Law with his Sword if he overcome he will have the same power to set aside all Laws both for Religion and Property the power will be in the hands of the Conqueror and certainly he will change the Government 'T is against the Religion of the Nation which teaches to pay Obedience to our Governours whether good or bad never so faulty or criminal In primitive Christianity Obedience was paid to Heathen Princes in licitis honestis and we are not to do evil that good may come of it nor on the prospect of any good I shall say one word more 't is against the Oaths of the Nation of Allegiance and Supremacy The Duke is the Kings lawful Heir if he have no Son and in the Eye of the Law I am sworn to him and every Oath is in the sense of the Law-giver If this Disinherison pass now into a new Law who dispenses me from that Oath to the King possibly I am too tedious and not willingly heard If the Bill be against the Religion of the Nation being obliged by Oaths against the Government and the wisdom of the Nation I hope you will throw it out T. B. Sec. J. has moved to throw out the Bill and desired to be heard patiently I find no body second him pray let him go on and second himself Ordered a second Reading Sir W. J. Because there has been much discourse in the Town of the Votes that past on Saturday upon the Lords Spiritual and Temporal rejecting the Impeachment c. though I believe what is done will be made good yet I would for the present give the Nation all the satisfaction we can that we are in the right Amongst our misfortunes in being called to this place we are far remote from Records and Books but yet I think it may be easy to prepare our selves to maintain what we have done According to the little light I have I find it the undoubted right of the Commons not only to bring Impeachments against Lords but against Commons too Magna Charta does not only say Per judicium parium c. but per Legem Terrae c. Tryal by Parliament is Lex Terrae I have heard of a Record 4. E. 3. where when the E. of March The Black Rod came to command their Attendance in the House of Lords whither they immediately went and the Lord Chancellour by Command of the King Dissolved the Parliament FINIS
THE DEBATES IN THE House of Commons Assembled at OXFORD March the 21st 1680. Reprinted 1681 THE DEBATES In the House of Commons assembled at OXFORD March the 21st 1680. The three first days being spent in chosing their speaker the confirming of him and taking the Oaths as the Law directs On Thursday the 24th of March 1680. They began thus Thursday March the 24th 1680. Sir J. H. MR. Speaker What I am about to Move concerns us all The last Parliament when you was moved to Print your Votes it was for the Security of the Nation and you found it so It prevented ill Representations of us to the world by false Copies of our Votes and none doubted your Honour in the care of it And I am confident that this House will be no more ashamed of their Actions than the last was Printing our Vote will be for the Honour of the King and the safety of the Nation I am confident if it had been necessary you would have had Petitions from the parts I come from that your Actions might be made publick As I came hither every body almost that I met upon the Road cryed God bless you in what you are going about I Move therefore that your Votes may be Ordered forthwith to be Printed with the rest of your Proceedings and 〈◊〉 shall onely add that your self has done so well in taking that care upon you the last Parliament that the House will desire you to continue them in the same Method Sir W. C. That which put me upon Moving the Printing your Votes the last Parliament was false Copies that went about in former Parliaments of the Votes and Transactions of the House Let men think what they please the weight of England is the people and the more they know the heavier will it be and I could wish some would be so wise as to consider that this weight hath sunk ill Ministers of State almost in all Ages and I do not in the least doubt but it will do so to those who are the Enemies of our Religion and Liberties And the world will find the honest Commons of England will sink Popery at last therefore I second the Motion Sec. J. I beg pardon if I consent not to the motion of Printing the Votes c. consider the Gravity of this Assembly There is no great Assembly in Christendom does it 'T is against the gravity of this Assembly and 't is a sort of Appeal to the people 'T is against your gravity and I am against it H. B. If you had been a Privy-Council then 't were fit what you do should be kept secret Your Journal Books are open and Copies of your Votes in every Coffeehouse and if you Print them not half Votes will be dispersed to your prejudice This Printing c. is like plain English-men who are not asham'd of what they do and the people whom you represent will have a true account of what you do you may prevent the publishing what parts of the Transactions you please and Print the rest L G I find that those who write out the Votes and Transactions and send them all England over are favoured and I believe no Gentleman in the House will be against Printing them but the Secretary I hope you will not have reason to be asham'd of what you do therefore I am for Printing c. Col M. By experience we have found that when former Parliaments have been Prorogued or Dissolved they have been sent away with a Declaration against their proceedings If our Actions be nought let the world judge of them if they be good let them have their virtue 'T is fit that all Christendom should have notice of what you do and posterity what you have done and I hope they will do as you do therefore I am for printing c. Sir F W What has been said by the Secretary is a single opinion for he says that printing the Votes is an Appeal to the people I hope the House will take notice that printing the Votes is not against Law But pray who sent us hither The Privi-Council is constituted by the King but the House of Commons is by the choice of the people I think it not natural nor rational that the people who sent us hither should not be informed of our Actions In the Long Parliament it was a Trade amongst Clerks to write the Votes and dispers them and were questioned for it there but 't was then said by a Learned Gentleman that 't was no offence to inform the people of the Votes of Parliament the Journal Books being open and the people ought to have notice of them The Long Parliament were wise in their generation to conceal many things they did from the people and yet the Clerk was sent away who dispersed the Votes and had nothing done to him The Popish party dread nothing more than Printing what you do and I dread a man in the Secretaries post and such an accusation as was upon him in the last Parliament that he should hold such a position that printing the Votes is an Appeal to the people Vide the Printed Vote of this day A Motion was made to inquire into the Miscarriage of the Bill for Repeal of 35 Eliz. c. R. H. I think the Motion is to inquire after the slipping of that Act the last Parliament and not presenting it for the Royal assent For my own part I look upon it as a breach of the constitution of the Government We are told that we are Republicans and would change the Government but such as are about to do so 't is a natural fear in them to be thought so and they will cast it upon others In a crowd 't is frequent for pickpockets to cry out Gentlemen have a care of your pockets that they may more securely do it themselves and have the less suspition upon them I will not offer this great thing to the consideration to day but Move you to Adjourn it till to morrow Sir F. W. I shall humbly put in this word I doubt this matter will be too big to be debated to day 't is of great importance and will not be forgotten be pleased to Adjourn the Debate c. Sir N. C. I humbly Move that for the preservation of the Protestant Religion and the Kings Person a Bill be brought in to prevent a Popish Successor and in particular against James Duke of York the same Bill which past the last Parliament Sec. J. You are upon rising and I shall not detain you long I must give my Negative to this motion and my reason why I do so is because the King hath declared in his Speech that as to the point of altering the Succession he cannot depart from what he has so often declared The King has given his Vote against it therefore I must do so to L. G. The D. of York is in Scotland and I hope the King will come up to what he has said
Let this matter be reassumed on Saturday-morning and so taken into consideration to secure the Protestant Religion and not to let appear upon your Books any thing relating to Expedients or preventing a Popish Successour J. T. I was much surprized at the K.'s Speech considering your weighty Reasons for the Bill c. the last Parliament and that the Lords found out no Expedients for preservation of Religion and yet threw out the Bill But that the K. may see that what we do is out of real sense of the danger we are in from a popish Successor and not in contradiction to him and when nothing is found out to save us we may justifie our selves in what we do I am for adjourning the Debate Vote vide the Print Friday March 25. 1681. Thanks moved for free Choice of Members J. S. WHen there has been a general Corruption and all have not done their duty you should distinguish and give thanks to them that have and formerly you have done to Officers for doing their duty in suppression of Popery when through the corruption of the times some have not done their duty Nothing is more Parliamentary than to return Thanks to those who have freely and without expence chosen you Members and I desire that the Members so elected may be ordered to send their Thanks to those who chose them Vide the Vote in the Print The loss of the Bill for repeal of 35 Eliz moved Sir W J This matter deserves material consideration whether in respect of the loss of the Bill or the shaking of the very Constitution of Parliament The Bill that is lost is of great moment and of great service to the Country and perhaps to their lives in the time of a Popish Successor Those men that hindred the passing that Bill had a prospect of that and if it be sent up again we are like to meet with great opposition But be the Bill what it will the president is of the highest consequence The King has his Negative to all Bills but I never knew that the Clerk of the Parliament had a Negative if he laid it aside or not But consider if we send up many good Bills if this be not searched into we may be deprived of them No man that knows Law or History but can tell that to Bills Grateful and popular the K. gives his consent to them But if this way be found out that Bills should be thrown by it may be hereafter said they were forgot and laid by and so we shall never know whether the K. would pass them or no. if this be suffered 't is in vain to spend time here and 't will be a great matter to find time to redress it I move therefore that a Message be sent to the Lords for a Conference that some way may be found out to give us satisfaction in this great matter H. B. I do concur with the Gentleman spoke last that Parliaments are Prorogued and Dissolved by the King and now here is a new way found out to frustrate Bills The K. cannot take one part of a Bill and reject another but gives a direct answer to the whole But to avoid that this Bill was never presented to the K. a thing never done before I desire we may send to the Lords for a Conference to represent this Innovation and that a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons for the Managers W. G. I was a freind to this Bill and I agree in all things concerning the weight of it The laying this Bill aside is such a breach of the Constitution of Parliament that 't is in vain to pass any Bill if this miscarriage be not searched into By the constitution of Parliaments all Bills but Money-Bills after they are past both Houses are deposited in the Lords hands 't is below you to look after the Clerks for this Bill If the Lords give you no answer for the loss of this Bill that is satisfactory I would then send to them to know a Reason why the Bill was not tendred to His Majesty with the other Bills Sir R. H. I would have you search the Lords Journals and if you and no account of the Bill there then 't will be time for us to go to the Lords to require satisfaction Sir R T I have not much to offer you but I fully concur in the weight and consequence of this matter and you are to take all the care you can to secure it for the future Never any thing of this nature was done before but the Bill for observation of the Lords day in the late long Parliament 'T was left upon the Table at a conference and stolen away But 't is not proper I conceive to take notice of this in a Message to the Lords because the miscarriage of this Bill was in another Parliament The matter must go upon the desire of a Conference with the Lords concerning the Rights and Priviledges of both Houses of Parliament and then you may appoint a Committee to inform you of the progress of this matter E. V. I think the passing over the inquiry after the loss of the Bill of the Sabbath in the late long Parliament was the great occasion of the loss of this Consider how many interruptions Parliaments have had of late in the greatest business by Prorogations and Dissolutions and another way to gratifie your Enemies is to stifle your Laws when they have a mind the people should have no benefit of them though they have passed both Houses Therefore I Move c. ut ante Sir H. C. I differ only as to the words I agree to a Conference but no more to be said then to know what 's become of the Bill for the Lords are the Depositories of all Bills but money Without any other words I would send the Lords for a conference to know what 's become of the Bill I know but of three Negatives but by this proceeding here is a fourth Negative which may destroy the Government S. T. 'T is the best way in this matter to observe old methods and the best method to know the Lords minds is by Conference I remember in the late long Parliament the Lords sent to us for a Conference and at it told the Roof of our House was falling on our heads but they sent us not a message of the danger we were in by the falling of the Roof but desired a conference about a matter of great consequence Therefore I would now send to the Lords for a Conference of matters relating to the Nation R. H. I would say this We desire a Conference with the Lords concerning the Constitution of Parliaments in matters relating to passing of Bils Vide Printed vote Sir T. L. This is a thing of as high weight as we can confer upon Therefore I would not do less than in a thing of lesser moment Let a Committee meet and then agree of the subject matter till then you know not what
Imployment he is put upon is for the Kings service and he tells you it reflects upon the King All is reversed if what the Commons do must be as if it reflects upon the King I have all imaginable respect to the King but Sir we are in a Ship and we have to do with the Master and he with us If this Gentleman would make any sort of excuse I would willingly accept it but he has not yet taken off his Crime but rather aggravated it If he have nothing farther to say he must withdraw and then you 'l have a Motion made for the Honor of the House Sir T. M. I know no other difference in any person here if the Secretary said I thought it reflected on the King a man may be mistaken in his thoughts and in case it be so he would suffer any thing under that reflection He said it was his thoughts that the carrying the Message was a reflection upon the King and in that case would suffer any thing rather than a reflection upon the King and his Character Sir J. E. 'T is an ill thing to stumble at the entrance I hope the Secretary intended no dis-service to the House but on a mistake I did apprehend it and some others that it was in jest But in jest or earnest one ought to obey the Commands of the House but every man cannot subdue his own Heart But I would know upon farther consideration whether the Secretary will undertake this service or no. I am the worst Advocate in the world for any obstinate person But I humbly offer whether the Gentleman will serve you or no before he withdraw Ern. removed from his place and whispered with the Secretary Sec. J. Since the House is so favourable as to hear me I shall only say that I did aprehend sending me with the Message to the Lords was a reflection upon the King if I did apprehend it a reflection upon my Master I could not but resent it I am heartily sorry I have incurred the displeasure of the House and I hope they will pardon the freedom of the expression I apprehended it a reflection upon the King and no other consideration whatsoever induced me to say the words M. F. I Look upon this has come from the Secretary as so great a Reflection upon the House that he ought to come to the Bar upon his knees and ask pardon of the House H. B. We are all Subject to Infermities seeing that the thing is so the Secretary could not apprehend any reflection on the King by sending him with the Message but he might apprehend it on himself it was a little smilingly moved but since he has explained himself I would have this c. past by as I would on the like occasion desire for my self Ld. C. The Gentlemans fault is a great one but that after he has begg'd the pardon of the House I am willing to pass it over Though it be a great fault yet 't is too little to give occasion of a Breach at this time Sec J. I am ready to obey the Order of the House and I am sorry my words gave offence So he went on the Message Col. B. We ought all to give God thanks for this Discovery of Fitzharris next to the first Discovery of the Plot. It is a great service to the Nation and 't is not the first that Sir William Waller has don If ever the thanks of the House was deserved it is for this Discovery and I Move Sir William Waller may have the thanks of the House Ordered vide the Print SATURDAY March 26. 1681. Order of the day vide Print Sir R. C. I Confess I have been full of Expectation of some Expedient to secure the Life of the King and the Protestant Religion without the Bill for Excluding the Duke c. My expectation is from those who opposed the Expedient of the Bill for I can call it no otherwise I have in my weak judgment weighed all Expedients I have heard of and they seem all to me to be a breach of the Constitution of the Government and to throw us into disorder and confusion Ihave heard that it has been an antient usuage that Members have consulted their Cities Burroughs and Counties in any thing of weight as well as giving Money before they resolved it The practice was good and I wish it were continued and we can discharge our trust no beetter than in observing the direction of those who sent us hither I Received an Address from the City of London having the Honour to be one of their Representatives in the matter of this Bill of Excluding the Duke c. I hearttily wish some Expedient may be sound out to save our Religion without it But I must pursue my trust therefore I move a Bill may be brought to Exclude all Popish Successours and in particular James Duke of York Lord R. I have the same obligation upon me as the worthy person who spoke last from the Country I have the Honour to serve for I have been of opinion that nothing but this Bill can secure us from Popery In the long Parliament 't was said that the Duke was a Papist and the danger of his power will be more now and every day informs us of the sad consequences of it I should be glad of any thing but this Bill could secure us I know nothing else can therefore Humbly move for it c. R. M. The security of the Protestant Religion and the preservation of the Kings Person is of so great weight that we should not have staid to this day to Exclude the Duke but I am sorry to hear that Language that because the King has said in his Speech he will stick to his former resolution in not altering the Succession c. and proposed a kind of Expedient c. but in this we are not used as an English Parliament but a French to be told what we are to do and what not 't is the greatest Arbitrary power in England to cow a Parliament which may be was in design to bring us hither but be we called to York or any part of England I believe we shall be the same men we are here and were at Westminster My Lord Danby Dissolved the long Parliament and said he had spoiled the old Rooks and had took away their false Dice and then started in the new Ministers and they shuffle and cut again and Dissolve Parliaments till they can get one for their turn I have heard much weight laid upon Disinheriting the Duke sure no Father will scruple to Disinherit a Son or a Brother nor turn away Servants that would ruine him If Bishops and Councellors would speak plain they cannot answer deferring our security so long But neither the Ministers of the Gospel have endeavoured the preservation of our Religion nor the Ministers of State the Government both acting against Religion and Safety of the Kings Person And I have no
Him to whom they were sworn The Fundamental and Common Law of England has made the Duke Heir to the Crown if the King have no Sons The Title of Hen. 4. was confirmed by Parliament but he laid his Claim of Descent from H. 3 and it continued in that Descent till H. 6. and then the Parliament declared that those Acts were not binding but unjust and declared the Oaths of Allegiance to those Kings in famous and wicked and so the Right Heir came in H. 8. had Power to dispose of the Crown by his last Will and Testament to place and displace the Crown at his pleasure yet all his right Heirs came to the Crown though Jane Gray claimed it by vertue of that Will and baited her Title with Religion Queen Elizebeth made a Law That whoever did maintain That the Crown could not be disposed of by Parliament should be Guilty of Treason c. and for ever after of Praemunire But since that there is a Restitution of King James which acknowledge him lawfully rightly and justly the next Heir to the Crown and did beseech the King to accept of their Allegiance to him and his Posterity And I think our Ancestors swore to the King and his Posterity as well as we 'T is a great Happiness to this Nation that both the Lines are united and that we are rid of the Misfortunes of the Barons Wars We have had Attempts to turn the Government into a Republique And who knows but that if you put by the Right of the D. the Revenue of the Crown being much upon the people but that there may be Attempts to turn the Gevernment into a Republick again When my Father was in Prison in the late Troubles an eminent man then in Power in discourse with him said I have obliged you and if the King come in as I believe He will then think of me Look to your Selves when you are in the Saddle again If once you divide adieu to Monarchy for ever If you keep out the Duke what must follow An Act for Association I speak now for England and for my Posterity I have seven Children How will this look The Kings Father Murder'd and his Brother taken from Him Will this take no effect with the King I wish the Duke many happy days but the King more from my heart than the Duke The King is a healthful Man and the Duke is not I am not barely the Duke's Servant which makes me concern my self nor out of pique of Honour would I do any thing to destroy my Posterity Therefore I am against the Bill c. Sir W. C. That which calls me up is to answer something that was said by the worthy Member that spoke last I am for the Bill of Exclusion and was so the last Parliament because I am clearly satisfied there can be no Security without it But I must so far agrree with him that this Bill if it should pass will not be a full and compleat Security But Here being an Interruption by a noise in the House this Gentleman proceeded no further Col B. This is the day of Englands distress and not only England but upon this days Debate depends the good fate of the Protestant Religion all the world over Except you expect a Miracle from Heaven nothing else can save the Protestant Religion but this Bill of Exclusion I think I have said this many years ago That Popish Matches would bring in Popery at last As to the point of Law spoken of that 't will be interpreted according to the strength of the Party But I doubt not if we do our endeavours God will help us if we have nothing left us but Prayers and Teares We are in condition of Conquest or Compact and so is all Government Interest must defend this Bill and not an Army we are the Army I have a Family as well as others and where Idolatry must be set up and rather than my Children should breath in such an Air I had rather they were buried and had all the mischiefs in the world Col. L. ingenuously offer'd some things but without this Bill you may sit down take a Popish Successour and renounce the Protestant Religion I would break this Popish Interest and then Interest will maintain this Bill If once this Bill pass and as in Queen Elizebaths time Protestants are put in places of Trust you need not fear the disturbance spoke of Where ten were of this minde an hundred are now that will bleed for this Bill In plain English let the world see that the Protestant Religion is dear to us and we shall have the Law on our sides Sir T. Litt. I was mistaken by some Gentlemen in what I said I shall be very short and tender of the time because 't is late That of the Lady Maries Regency obviated an absurdity in the former Bill If the Duke should have a Son where are you then The Lady cannot descend from the Throne having possess'd it But my meaning was that the two Princesses respectively should Succeed in the Regency during the Minority of that Son The Bill of Exclusion is so weak a thing that 't will need all the props to support it And a train of consequences will follow it What is told you of Scotland is worth your consideration if Scotland be not consenting to it I know not how you 'll obviate that It unites the Papists of England and France which we ought above all things to prevent H. B. He may be convinced by his own Argument For by so much the easier 't is for the Princess of Orange to descent from her Authority of Regent so much the less is our security And for Scotland the same Interest that passes this Bill here will do it in Scotland and in Ireland there is no need of it By this Proposition of the Regency all Commissions Military by Sea and Land Church and Law are to go on in the Dukes name And if all Dispatches under the Great Seal must go under his Name we can have no Security The Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy can be taken to none but him and if that be granted That 't is unlawful to take up arms against the King or those Commissionated by him If that be not a true proposition I know not why that Declaration was made It lies loose to me I must confess this Expedient seems to me as if a man that scorched his Shins at the Fire instead of removeing himself farther off should send for a Mason to remove the Chimney back I have heard from Lawyers That if a man do make a Freehold-Lease to begin from the date thereof 't is void It would be more ingenuous for the Gentlemen to say If you do pass the Bill to exclude the Duke they will not be bound by it they will have the Duke to Succeed and then I wish they would tell us what will save the Protestant Religion If the Duke come to the Crown will
Gentlemen choose either to be Papists or burnt or hang'd I have no disrespect to the Duke if this Proposal could keep out Popery But if I am to leap over a River I had rather have no Staff than a broken one This can be no Security If you leave it in the power of the Councel to make War and Peace and dispose of Money Pray then where is the Government Either they will be faithful and keep the Law of Regency or the King must be King but in the name and they the Soul of the Government I have heard the Expedients with patience and have not been over-hasty to put the Question But I see no Remedy to save Religion unless excluding the Duke Therefore pray put the Question for the Bill c. The Question was stated R. H. You have been moved to adde to the Duke's Exclusion all other Popish Successours This is a Bill on purpose to Exclude the Duke only You may Exclude all other Papists from Succeding c. in another Bill by it self But I observe that the way to loose a Bill is to flog it H C. I shall only observe that by the last Bill of Exclusion if the Duke should turn Protestant He will be Excluded and if the Princess of Orange turn Papist she is not Excluded Vid. the Vote for the Bill in Print In the AFTERNOON An Account given of the Lords throwing out the IMPEACHMENT of Fitzharris Sir T. L. I See by the Lords refusing this Impeachment no farther use of a Parliament They will be a Court or not a Court to serve a present purpose Sir W. J. In a matter so plain and which concerns the very being of Parliaments I am unwilling to make unnecessary doubts If an Action be brought in the Lower Courts it does not hinder the Action being brought in Westminster-hall if no Judgment upon it and it holds the like in this case Indictments were brought against the Lords in the Tower at Common Law and yet was no Impediment to their Impeachment in the Lords House but here is no Indictment or prosecution brought against Fitzharris We have an Instance fresh in Memory The Lord Cheif-Justice Scroggs a Commoner and not Indicted at Common-Law yet the Lords without any scruple accepted his Impeachment so that we need not spend our time to search Presidents Perhaps the Lords Journals were not made up but our Members have taken Notes out of the Minut-Book by them we find the Lords have determined a great point The Lords Spiritual as well as the Lords Temporal have Voted it which we own not in this Judicature nor I hope never shall and we are denied Justice by the Lords Spiritual who have no Right to Vote This is doing a double act of Injustice And since the Lords have taken upon them to throw out the Impeachment of Fitzharris let us Vote That the Commons have a Right to Impeach in Capital Cases and that the Lords have denied us Justice in refusing the Impeachment And after you have asserted your Priviledges then draw up Reasons for maintaining them And if the Dissolution of the Parliament follows it 's the fault of those Men who will not hear our Reasons and in a Parliamentary way at a Conference shew how unwarrantable the Lords Actions have been in their way of proceeding Sir F. W. If this Impeachment of Fitzharris was of so ordinary a nature as a Monopoly c. I should not press upon this matter But this is not an ordinary Accusation but that which relates to our Religion and Property and how the Bishops come to stifle this let God and the world judge I would know if a man be Impeached by the Commons and no Indictment against him only the Atturney-General told the Lords that the King gave Directions he should be prosecuted and no Record against him whether this is a ground to deny our Impeachment If the Lords will Vote that the Commons shall not Impeach him they may as well Vote they shall not be Prosecutors But yet we will be so This is a New Plot against the Protestants of which Fitzharris is accused and we must not Impeach him in this the Lords fairly say We must not hear it If this be the Case I desire you'ill come to some Vote You are willing to discover the Plot if you could If the Attourny-General had prepared a Prosecution in an Inferior Court and they had proceeded to Judgment then it is pleaded in Bar to the Judgment of a Superior Court If our Time be short as I believe it is pray do not delay to come to some Resolution if the House be satisfied in it pray make a Vote to assert your Right A little while ago when the Duke was presented for a Papist the Grand Jury you know was dismiss'd by Chief-Justice c. This seems as if the Lords were bound in Honour to justifie the Judges Proceedings by their own 'T is a reflection of weakness in a man who doubts in a plain matter and if no man doubts our Right pray Vote it so Sir R. H. I am glad we are off from the great thing yesterday I cannot believe but that the Lords have Judgment enough to have cause for what they do and in this cause of Fitzharris Impeachment In this matter Presidents you need not search This of Fitzharris seemeth to me to be a more dangerous breath than usual a breath fit to be stifled there is something in this more than ordinary If there be so sacred a respect to the comman Tryalls of England in Inferiour Courts 't is strange that the House of Commons should be below a common Jury If in the cases of Skinner and the fact done beyond the Sea the Lords contended with the Commons about Judging it though it was an original cause this was no great value of the Law of England But it seems they value Fitzharris to keep him from us When I have heard in all the Speeches to day that the Duke does not go single and have heard so excellent discourses to day of that matter I am loath to mingle my weakness But such Councel as this the King hereafter will have no cause to thank them for involving him in the fatality of those Councels as if they would make the Libel of Fitzharris the Copy of their Councels Dangerfield was reputed a most infamous person yet if he would speak what he knew nothing of mercy was to big for him But Fitzharris is a man of no infamy and yet they hurry him away to the Tower when he began to confess in Newgat Are you so lost that you have no mercy left for the Protestant Religion This is strange if the terror of his condition make him confess the whole Plot he be taken out of our hands We hear of other things as that the French Ambassador had a hand in this Plot which a Jury will not inquire into their business is only whether Fitzharris be guilty or not guilty