they vsed speakind of Knox and his Confederats that poore Lady my Mother is not vnknowne and with greife I may remember it Touching Geâ—enna Goneuâ— I would say but the mistaking is not great since what the one teacheth the other punisheth We find that D. 〈…〉 lâ—ste thus truly writeth They of eneua did depose their Liegt Lord who was Catholicke Prince from his temporall right albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lord and owner of that Citty and Territorie Which whom conspireth D. Bancroft thus wryting hereof The Citizens of Geneua receauing some good encour agement meaning from Caluin and such others I doubt not tooke vpon them the endeauouring of altering Religion and omitted not the occasion offered of changing also the Estate of the Commonwealth In this next place the 〈…〉 ow Countryes affoard a greater euidency and demonstration of this point For Oâ—iander a most eminent Protestant thus woundeth his owne Professours The Low Countreyes by publike wryting renounced all obedience and subiection to Philip their Lord and King c. When foure hundred of them men of good ranke had sued for tolleration in religion and did not preuayle the impatient People stirred vp with fury at Antwerp and other places of Holland Zâ—land and Pladders threw and broake downe images c. The y subiects of those Countreyes tooke armes against the Magistrate and made the Prince of Orange their Gouernour A truth in like sort confessed by D. Sarauia in these words They of the Low Countryes did ouerthrow and spoyle temples and monasteryes with Monks Bishops and the whole popish Cleargy against the mind of the cheife Magistrate and promâ—se giuen Finally Crispinus the Protestant and the foresaid Osiander do relate that one Petrus Dathenus and other cheife Protestants of Gauâ—t did stir vp in the yere 1587. the Ciâ—tizens to cast all the Masse Priests as they speake and Monks out of the Citty and to place their goods in the Treasury Next let vs come to France What ciuill Warrs haue beene raized by the Protestants during the space of forty yeares togeather till the last King Henry the fourth made himselfe Catholicke only for their Religion against their Catholicke Kings and Princes Many historyes are become the subiect thereof only I will content my selfe with discerning some few testimonyes and confessions of the Protestants heerein And first may occuâ—re the battayle of Dreux wherat Beza himselfe was present vndertaken only for the aduancement of the Protestant Religion and of which Battayle Beza thus writeth The Nobility of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy layd the foundation of the restoring true Religion in France by consecrating most happily their bloud to God in the battayle of Dreux In like sort we thus reede in a Protestant booke entituled The generall Inuentory of the History of France and translated into English by Ed. Grimston The Protestants of Meaux transported with indiscreete zeale grounded vpon their numbers did fly to the Churches beate downe images and make the Priests retyre And againe Beza preaching at Grenoble Charters and Orleans with his sword and pistoll in his hand exhorted the people to show their manhood rather in killing the Papists then in breaking Images And yet more The Protestants to wit anno 1567. being first armed were in the beginning maysters of the field c. The King being incensed agaynst them was at Meâ—ux and preparing to celebrate the feast of S. Michael the Prince of Condy approaching with fiue hundred horse by this attempt forced the King to retyre with some amazement to Paris And yet further The Prince of Condy and the Admirall kept S. Denis S. Owen and Auberuilliers to curbe Paris The Constable the Kings Lieutenant gathered an Army whereupon bartayle eâ—sued c. Which Authour of the aforementioned Inuentory of France relateth many more occurrents of those matters which here for breuity are omitted But to proceede further touching the Country of France Osiander the foresaid Protestant recordeth this matter in these words The Protestants vnder colour of exhibiting a Confession of their fayth came armed to the Kings palace c. That ciuill warre for Religion was renewed the Prince of Condy being Generall of those of the reformed Churches and the Constable Generall of the Kings Army That the Constable being slayne in these warres the Kings Brother supplyed his place To conclude this point of the Prince of Condy his rebellion herein It is so euident vndeniable that Crispinus a Protestant thus writeth hereof After many messages though in vayne sent by the King to the protestant Princes the warre beganne againe For the Prince of Condy rose vp in armes and swore not to leaue them vnder whose protestation this sentence was placed Deo victricibus armis This lamentable subiect of Protestant Subiects rysing against their Catholicke Princes hath busied my tongue very long Therefore I passe ouer how in Basil a cheife Citty in Heluetia a great dissention did ryse betweene the Burgâ—sses certaine of the Senatours for cause of Religion only as Crispinus relateth And how the Burgesses hauing taken armes forced the others to agree to what they demanded and thereupon they did cast downe Images and how twelue Senatours fauoring our Catholicke Religion were cast out of the Senate and how the Masse was first by these meanes abandoned throughout all that Sâ—gnory Also I pretermit the dolefull passages of this nature practized in Sweâ—eland of which Country Cythreus a Protestant thus relateth Sigismond being King of Sweueland by hereditary succession was constrayned to giue his assent that none should beare office in that Kingdome but such only meaning Protestants as retayned the Confession of Augusta He further saith thus They forced the King to content himselfe with exercise of his Catholicke Religion in his owne Chappell A truth so well knowne confessed that Osiander thus speaketh of it in generall tearmes The Protestants of Sweueland did decree that the exercise of Popish Religion should be banished out of all parts of that Kingdome c. Finally I passe ouer with a gentill â—uche what the Kingdome of Palonia hath suffered in this kynd of which poynt the foresaide Protestant Osiander thus writeth Certaine of Polonia did out of an vntymely zeale expell their Priests with great violence and sedition without expecting permission as the said Authour confesseth of the Kinge Thus far most worthy Iudge I haue proceeded contrary to the byas of myne owne naturall disposition in relation of these lamentable I lyads as I may tearme them but I am to be pardoned since the vpbrading importunity of M. Vice-Chancelour did compell me thearto from which former Examples we may gather that for diuers yeres past most Nations of Christendome haue become the sable and mournfulle Theaters or stages whereupon so many blouddy Tragedyes haue bene acted or rather the very shambles whearein haue bene
not beene afore beleeued From which it euidently followeth that the Professours of the affirmatiue doctrines were that society of Christians out of which as more ancient the former Hereticks originally departed and went out And with this most remarkeable Men I end remitting to your owne cleare eyed iudgmeÌ„ts now after the perusing of this smale Treatise whether it was the present Church of Rome or the Protestant Church which hath made this so much inculcated change and alteration from that Faith which first was preached and taught in the sayd Church of Rome by the Apostles Laus Deo et Beatae Virgini Mariae THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEVV OR THE SECOND DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEW Betweene Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. Ochinus who first planted Protestancy in England in King Edward the sixt his raygne Doctour Reynolds of Oxford Neuserus cheife Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate The Contents hereof the Argument following will show Here is adioyned an Appendix wherin is taken a short Suruey contayning a full Answere of a Pamphlet intituled A Treatise of the Visibility and Succession of the True Church in all ages Printed Anno. 1624. Si dixerint vobis Ecce in deserto est nolite exire Ecce in Penetralibus noâ—â—â—e credere Math. 24. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM Anno. M. DC XXX THE ARGVMENT MICHAEAS after the Disputation had betweene Cardinall Bellarmine and D. Whitakers touching Romes chang in Religion through which he was first made Catholicke and in short tyme after made Priest trauelleth into many Countries to see their Vniuersities and places of learning At the length he arriueth in England where from visiting of Cambridg he cometh to Oxford Then he findeth D. Reynolds Ochinus and Neuserus They mooue him to become Protestant He answereth that the want of performace of the Prophecies touching the Visibility of Christs Church in the Protestant Church induceth him besides other reasons to continue Catholicke Hereupon they all begin a Disputation touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church for former ages prefixing therto by mutuall consent a short Discourse of the Necessity of a continuall Visibility of the true Church Michaeas so fully displayeth the insufficiency of the pretended Instances of Protestants and of all other Arguments vrged for proofe thereof That insteed of Michaeas being to be made a Protestant by this Disputation Ochinus and Neuserus as not acknowledging the present Roman Church to be the true Church and seing the Prophecies not to be fulfilled in the Protestant Church do finally come to this point to wit absolutely and openly to affirme that the Church of Christ as not hauing the Prophecies accomplished in it which were foretould to be performed in the true Church of God touching it Visibilitie is a false Church and that our Sauiour Christ was a Seducer Hereupon they both protest that from that tyme forward they do renounce the ChristiaÌ„ fayth and do embrace the Iewish Religion and so teaching Circumcision and reuiuing the Old law they do turne blasphemous Iewes or Turks Michaeas and D. Reynolds do vse vehement perswasions to them to the contrary but their words preuayle not and so the disputatioÌ„ breaketh off What courses Ochinus and Neuserus do after take for their spreading of Iudaisme is hereafter set downe And all the passages of their Reuolt are manifested partly out of their owne wrytings and partly from the acknowledgment of diuers learned Protestants so as their Apostacy is not feigned but true and reall THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEW WHEREIN IS DEMONSTRATED that the Protestant Church hath euer remayned Inuisible or rather hath not bene in Being since the Apostles daies till Luthers reuolt DOCTOVR REYNOLDS MICHAEAS God saue you I much reioyce to see you here in England And I congratulate your coming to this our Vniuersity of Oxford I haue often heard of you through occasion of your former entercourse of disputes with my Brother D. Whitakers though it was neuer my fortune to see you before this present MICHAEAS I greatly thanke you M. Doctour for this your kindnesse touching my coming hither you may know that since my last seeing of D. Whitakers I haue passed through diuers Countries and Nations moued thereunto notwithstanding my greate age through my owne innate desire of seeing places and Vniuersitis of erudition and learning Now at the last I am arriued in England and am immediatly comne froÌ„ visiting the Vniuersity of Cambridge a place in my iudgment much exceeding all prayses heretofore deliuered of it But may I make bolde to enquire of you who those two gentlemen here present are whose externall comportments do euen depose that their mindes are fayrely enriched with many Intellectuall good parts for it is certaine that a mans outward cariadge is commonly the true shadow of the minde cast by the light of the inward soule DOCTOVR REYNOLDS You haue coniectured aright For both these are men of great emineÌ„cy for learuing The elder of theÌ„ is called Ochinus who being accompained with the learned Peter Martyr did in King Edward the sixts tyme first plant in England the doctrine of Caluin after the Romish Religion was once abolished One whose presence in those dayes made EnglaÌ„d happie whose after absence made it Vnfortunate whom all Italy for he is an Italian could not equall This other is Neuserus the chiefe Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate a man whoÌ„ Nature his owne Industrie haue not placed in any lower roome of knowledge for he is transcendently learned and hath much labored in dilating the Ghospel of Christ Both these men are reciding here for the time by reason of some late emergent occations and businesse tending to the aduancement of Christs Church I could wish Michaeas you were acquainted with them MICHAEAS Gentlemen I greete you both in the salutation of the chiefe Apostle gratia vobis pax multiplicetur And I am glad that I am comne to that place where the very wals and streets in regard of such mens presence do euen Eccho forth learning and all good literature OCHINVS Worthy Michaeas for so I heare you called I willingly entertayne your acquaintance for learning I prize highly in any man as holding it the chiefest riches next to true Religion wherewith the vnderstanding is endowed NEVSERVS And I as happily do congratulate your arriuall here for what company of men are more to be esteemed then the Society of learned Men where themselues though few in number are a sufficient Auditory to themselues Satis magnum alteri alter theatrum they interchangeably giuing and receiuing all content by their leatned discourses DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Haue you had Michaeas a full sight of our Vniuersity Colledges If not we are ready to accompany you throughout all the chiefe places thereof MICHAEAS I haue already seene them all and particularly your late erected schooles wherin are dayly ventilated all questions worthy the iudiceous eares of Schollers and your spatious liberary the very
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
others particularityes where Michaeas hath offended against the Soueraignty of Princes VICE-CHANCELOVR My L. I will You haue di 〈…〉 gled Michaeas to your sollowers that the Pope hath full authority to detâ—one Kings and Princes though neuer so absolute at his pleasure And further Papists teach that the spirituall Iurisdiction residiâ—g in the Pope ought to haue that predominancy ouer all temporall authority which the soule hath ouer the body To be short this poynt to wit that your Popisâ— Religion doth teache rebellion insurrection of the subiects against their lawfull Prince is so cleare as that we may well say Papistry and Disloyalty are almost Termini conuertibiles for though some disloyall Men are not Papists yet euery Papist in that he is a Papist is to his soueraigne Protestant Prince disloyall MICHAEAS You are glad M. Viach to moysten this your drye accusation in the froath of many idle and splenfull words Your accusation stands vpon two poynts First you charge me in particular for disseminating of disloyalty in your Vniuersity That being only said you make in lieu of further proofe thereof a subâ—â—ll transition to the doctryne of other Catholicks in that poynt As if what were wanting to the perfecting of my supposed Cryme therein ought to be made vp by the accession and application to me of other Catholicke Doctours wrytings of that subiect Now to the first I answere It is a most false Calumny forged in your owne brayne and wrought vpon the anuile of Maliâ—e For produce if you can the parties to whom I euer vttered such a Doctrine the Place or the Tyme Where or when such speeches were deliuered Thus we see that this your report as being in it selfe most false is wholy disuested of all Circumstances necessarily attending vpon euery humane Action For euen to reâ—cyle the secrets of my soule herein I did in all my discourses with your Scholars purposely auoyde as a seamarke all such questions of State so vnwilling I euer was but to touch vpon those dangerous sands And for the greater demonstration of my Innocency herein and of my Loyalty to his Maiesty of England I here acknowledge and in this acknowledgement I do for the tyme depose and put of the person of Michaeas and speake in my owne person the Authour of this Treatise and in the name of all other Priests and Catholicks of England all layalty and fidelity to our most gracious and dread soueraigne King Charles and to his most illustrious and worthy Queene beseeching the Almighty to graunt him a fruitfull bed and to make him Parent of many noble Children And further I humbly pray to the Highest that he may in all tranquillity and true happynes raigne ouer vs many yeres and after his dissolution of Body that he may equall in euerlasting Be atitude the greatest Sainct of his Predecessours now in Heauen This is my Protestation made in all sincerity and in which by Gods grace euen to my last gaspe I intend to continue and perseuer But now to resume my former shape of Michaeas Touching the first point of my accusation M. Vice-Chancelour you see how cleere and innocent I am I will now hasten to the second branch contayning as you say the doctrine of Disloyalty taught euen by all the Doctours of the Roman Church First I answere It is a most iniust slander obtruded vpon them by you since not any one Catholicke Doctour teacheth nor aone good lay Catholicke beleiueth that the Pope can at his ny pleasure depose Princes and transferre Kingdomes and states as to him best liketh Secondly I reply that seeing you neuer cease to vpbraid our Catholicke Religion with the foule stayne of disloyalty this being your other Protestants common Theame wherein you so much ryout in malignant exagerations Therefore as awakened by your so often ingeminated accusation herein I do auouch pardon me most Reuerend Iudge if being thus prouoked I enter into a Subiect perhapps vngratefull to you that the Protestants do by infinit degrees stand more reprehensible in this poynt of disloyalty and disobedience towards their Prince then we Catholicks do And this I will prooue if I may be suffered at this present against you M. Vice-Chancelour first from the positions and speculatiue assertions of the most learned Protestants and after from the actuall insurrections and rebellions of Protestants against their lawfull Princes VICE-CHANCELOVR This is the Scene Michaeas of men of your disposition that when you are truly charged with your owne faults then in place of better answere you insimulate by way of recrimination your Aduersaryes within the same faults But it seemes by you that dotage is the accustomed Attendant of old age or that you take a delight and complacency to haue the subiect of disloyalty often in your mouth as you euer haue it in your hart But begin at your pleasure to charge vs Protestants if you can either with the doctrine or practize of disloyalty My Lord-Iudge I know will giue you leaue who in the end shall perceaue that all what you can imagine in this point is but meete imagination and no reall Truth And so in your discours you will resemble that Man who dreames he doth but dreame MICHAEAS O wound not M. Vice-Chancelour my reputation with these Philippicks and declamatory Inuectiues so much hurtfull euen to the speaker for quomodo placabit Patrem iratus in fratrem And rest satisfyed that I do not solace myselfe as you suggest in this vnpleasing Text but do acquaint my selfe with discourses of that subiect with the like intention that the morall Philosopher doth busy himselfe with the nature of Vice which is the better to auoid Vice L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas I must needs now say that you do infinitly wrong our Religion by ascrybing both to the chiefe Doctours and Professours of it this odious Cryme of Disloyalty and Rebellion No no. Our Gospell which cometh from God best teacheth our duty towards the Lieutenants of God I presume that herein you rest but vpon the bare and naked speeches of others of your owne Religion our designed enemyes But you must remember that as things which are seene by reflexion are imperfectly seene so reports and bruits taken only at the rebound of partiall mens mouths deserue but a light eare But seeing it is the part of a Iudge to heare all sides with an indifferent eare you may Michaeas at your pleasure begin your discours of this your assumed Argument where I doubt not but M. Vice Chancelour will sufficiently repell all your reasons and answere to your examples to the greater Honour of our Religion which is a free from all stayne and blot of disloyalty as an intemerate virgin is free from any defyled touch Therefore Proceede MICHAEAS My L. I will And I must entreate your Patience herein as desirous to abstayne from geuing the lest iust offence to your L. And touching this subiect I dowbt litle but that howsoeuer you are as yet perswaded
after I haue finished my Discours your morning and more retyred thoughts will at lest in the secrets of your owne Iudgment geue an other censure hereof And I will begin in deliuering the Positions doctrines which the most accomplished Protestants for literature haue left of this Argument in their Bookes and wrytings And first do we not find Luther euen to denye all secular principality as most vnlawful now in these Christian dayes For thus he wryteth Among Christian Men none is superiour saue one and only Christ As also more fully Among Christians no man can or ought to be a Magistrate but eich one is to other equally subiect And further in contempt of all Magistrats touching matters of Religion he thus discourseth As Christ caÌ„not suffer hymselfe to be tyed and bound by Lawes c. So ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them And more Yf the Ciuil Magistrate should contend that his Commandements be necessary to saluation then as it is said of the Traditions of the Papists the contrary is to be donne Thus we find that Luther is not affraid not only to impugne all Magistracy and domination in certaine cases but he is also not ashamed to dogmatize and teach in his wrytings that there neither are nor ought to be any true souerainty or Princes at all now in the dayes of Christ To which Princes partly their Eminency graced with Pompe and state but chiefly an innate imbred Obedience to Power and Maiesty God and Nature making that now good which law of man did first ordayne induce men to exhibit all due reuerence and veneration In compare of whom euen the greatest subiects are to seeme but priuate obscure like the brightest starrs which are darkened in the presence of a fayrer light VICE CHANCELOVR Touching Luther Michaeas you must know that although we acknowledge him to haue been a great instrument of God for the reuealing in these later tymes the Gospell of Christ yet we grant that in some points he varyed from the Truth and particularly in denying all Magistracy and Principality But all other cheife Professours of our Religion concurrently teach with vs the lawfulnes of Princes and all due Obedience vnto them MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour If Luther by your owne acknowledgment did erre in this point how then can you rest assured that he did not erre in other points of fayth first by him broached and after entertayned by you Since he had no better warrant for teaching the truth in the one then in the other and it is certayne that a manifest errour but in one point carryeth with it a possibility of erring in any other point But to come to your answere I say the contrary thereto will presently appeare For is it not euident that Swinglius a man of extraordinary note among you thus teacheth Quando perfide extra regulam Christi egerint Principes possunt deponâ— When Princes do euill and contrary to the rule of Christ they may be deposed Thus Swinglius who there warranteth this his doctrine from the example of Saule whom God deposed although afore he designed him King Yea Swinglius thus further proceedeth Due reuerence it to be promised to Caesar if so be permitteth to vs our Religion inuiolable Thus intimating that if the Prince doth not permit Religion then no honour is to be giuen but resistance is to be made Swinglius furthermore continueth his former discours in these very words Romanum Imperium â—mâ— quâ—duâ—s aliud Imperium vbi religionem sinceram opprimere caperit c. If the Roman Emperour or any other Prince or Soueraigne shall beginne to oppresse the sincere Religion nos illud negligentes patimâ— c. And we negligently suffer the same We shall stand charged with contempt thereof as much as euen the oppâ—essours themselues An assertion so much displeasing to other more sober and quyet Protestants that D. Bilson doth rest much distâ—sted with those words of Swinglius saying in lieu of further answere to them As I muse at Swiâ—glius his words so I like not his iudgment VICE-CHANCELOVR Mich 〈…〉 You know well that Swinglius and Luther liued both in one tyme togeather I meane then when though many Articles of the 〈◊〉 were by them discouered yet all were not discouered but happâ—ly they might mantayne some errours The Sunne of Christs Gospell not as then arriuing to it Meridian and full ascent And indeed it is a kind of imperfection and as I may tearme it a signe of an ouer rigid nature to expect in the wâ—yters of those firster tymes no imperfection at all But now in these more late and refyned dayes the Professours of the Gospell haue wholy exploded the former doctrine of Luther and Swinglius herein For what Men do more aduance defend the dignity and soueraignty of Princes then we do in our Sermons and other our priuat Conferences MICHAEAS If you do so much magnify in your Pulpitts as you say you do the regallity of Princes it is to the end that in the close I speake only but of some of you you may the better vndermyne them all like the earth which for the tyme nurrisheth all Creatures yet finally deuoureth all Creatures But because you reply that the Professours comming after Luther and Swinglius cannot be blemished in their wrytings with any spot of disloyalty Therefore to follow you in your owne method therein I will come by degrees from Luther and Swinglius euen to these our dayes and so descending in tymes I will ascend in weight and force of Argument And now to come to Caluin who next in tyme succeeded Swiglius and towards whom most of you Protestants do commit a Kynd of Idolatry It is ouer euident that Caluin thus wryteth of Princes and their authority Earthly Princes do depr 〈…〉 themselfs of authority when they erect themselfs against God yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of Men and we are rather to spit vpon their fâ—ces then to obey them Thus we se that Caluin teacheth that Princes commanding thiâ—gs vnlawfull do vtterly depryue themselfs of all authority and regality where with a fore they were inuâ—sted With which former Words of Caluin D. Wilks no vulgar ProtestaÌ„t doth vppraid the Puritans in this sort They were your teachers who account those Princes who are not resined by their spirit vnworthy to be accounted among the number of Men and therefore rather to be spitted vpon then obeyed They were your teachers who defend Rebellion against Princes of a different Religion Thus D. Wilkâ— To come next to Beza He was so full and intemperate in ouerthrowing the authority of Princes as that he did purposely wryte a booke of this very Subiect styling it De 〈◊〉 Magistratuum in subâ—â—tos a booke much dislyked by D. Bancroft the late Arch Bishop of Canterbury and D. Succlâ—ffe Which Doctour tâ—us censureth thereof Beza in his booke of the
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
amazement to see in a most noble Country where the Ghospell which forbiddeth all Rapine is presumed to be truly preached that men free not borne Bondslaues should thus in body and state only for feare of offending God and desire of sauing their soules lye prostrate to the depradations robberyes of certaine hungery Refuse and Outcasts of men who make show at least though wrongfully to warrant all these their pillages by force of the statute Law though otherwise prohibited by all Diuine and humane Law Si est dolor sicut dolor horum And if it fortune that any Priest be taken or Recusants do appeare then is the Pryest assured and the Catholicks in danger to be committed to a darke and loathsome prison there to remayne the Priest sometymes in fettars so long as it shall please the subordinate Magistrate His Maiesty who is most proue to mercy pitty and commiseration being wholy ignorant of such outrages and proceedings But My Lord. How base so euer the Priests Catholicks of England seeme to be in the eyes of their Aduersaryes yet no doubt their state is most gratefull through this their imprisonment in the sight of God and honorable in the iudgment of all foraine Catholicke nations who in regard of the others endurance may iustly apply to the said imprisoned Priests Catholicks that sentence of a most auncient Father Carcer habet tenebras sed lumen estis ipsi habet vincula sed vos soluti Deo estis triste illic expirat sed vos odor estis suauitatis LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE Theese exorbitancyes of proceedings Michaeas whereof you speake if any such be the Law chastizeth and the Offendours are punishable neither doth the supreme Magistrat geue allowance of them Yet heare Michaeas you are to remember that though wrong be not to be recompensed with wrong and Cruelty with Iniustice The tymes haue bene I meane in the reigne of Queene Marie When the Professours of our Religion did not only suffer losse of Goods but euen death itselfe And therefore there appeareth lesse reason why you Romanists should so tragically complayne at your present afflictions Since in so doing you are lyke to those Men who perpeâ—rate impietyes yet expostulate of Wrong MICHAEAS Indeede my Lord I grant that this is the vulgar recrimination often vrged and reinforced by the Protestants for the more depressing of our pressures in the eye of others yet though I will not vndertake the defence of all the procedures of those tymes myselfe being a stranger both to the Nation and to the affayres of those dayes Neuerthelesse let it not be offensiue vnto you my honerable Lord if I vnfould the reason why such actions in that Queens tyme may stand lesse subiect to the censure of an iniustifiable punishment then theese in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth and since The reason is this In Q. Marâ—es tyme the Professours of any Religion different from the Catholicke and Roman Religion were punished by certaine Canon and Imperiall Lawes made by most auncient Popes Emperours they not then hauing any forknowledg that Protestancy should rather sway in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth And this they did in regard that all such different Religions were reputed and â—oulden as Innouations and most repugnant to the auncient Catholicke fayth Now that ProtestaÌ„cy was to be accounted in Queenes Maryes reigne a mere Innouation in faith as well as any other sect appeareth euen from the free acknowledgment of the learned Protestants who teach expressly that for theese foureteene or fyfteene hundred yeeres the ProtestaÌ„t fayth was neuer so much as heard or thought of till Luthers dayes I will heare content myselfe for greater breuity with the authorityes of two or three Protestants Do we not then find M. Parkins thus to coÌ„fesse hereof For many hundred yeres our Church was not visible to the World an vniuersal Apostasy ouer spreading the whole face of the Earth And doth not Sebastianus Francus the Protestant confesse the same in theese words For certaine the externall Church togeather with the Sacramenti vanished away presently after the Apostles departure and that for theese foureteene hundred yeres the Church hath not beene externall and Visible In lyke sort D. Fulke speaking of the Protestant Church doth he not thus wryte The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes A verity confessed by Luther hymselfe thus vaunting of his owne supposed true faith Christum anobis primo vulgaâ—um audemus gloriari We dare boast that Christ was first preached by vs. Thus then we see that Protestancy was punished in Q. Maryes reigne as an Innouation in fayth and religion neuer afore that tyme dreamed of But now the case is farre otherwise touching the afflictions layed vpon the Catholicks for professing of their fayth since they are punished by certaine Parlamental statuts only decreed not past some threescore yeres since by the authority of a Woman Prince against a religion which by the learned Aduersaries lyke acknowledgment hath possessed all Christendome theese many hundred yeres and indeed so many hundred yeres as the Protestant Church is confessed by them to haue bene latent and inuisible And therefore those statâ—â—s were decreed not against the Catholicke Religion as against an Innouation but as against the till then only and sole Religion professed by all the Christiaâ—s through out the whole world To this end we find M. Napper a learned Protestant thus acknowledging Betweene the yeres of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian Papisticall reigne began reigning vniuersally without any debatible contradiction one thousand two hundred sixty yeres And as conspiring with the former Protestant herein the Centurists do euen from the tymes of Constantyne charge both hym and euery age and Century since till Luthers dayes with the Profession of our present Roman Religion Thus now your Lordship may clearly discouer the greate disparity betwene the proceedings of Queene Mary and Q. Elizabeth Since in the former Queens tyme the Lawes wheareby Sectaries were punished for their Religion were instituted many hundred yeres since In this later Q. raigne the Statuts were first made at the beginning of her comming to the Crowne which is yet in the memory of eich Man being but of reasonable greate yeres Those lawes were enacted by Popes and generall â—ouncells to whose charge and incumbency the burden of Religion is peculiarly by God committed secunded otherwise by the secular authority of Emperours and particularly of 〈◊〉 Valentinian and Marcian Theese were first inuented by a Woman and a Parlament of Lay Persons the incompetent iudges of fayth and Religion Breifly by the former Decrees a Religion confessed by the cheife Professours of it to be neuer heard of at lest for foureteene hundred yeres together and thearefore to be an innouation of fayth which is held by Catholicks to be a destruction of fayth necessary to Soules health is interdicted and prohibited By theese later