Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	great_a	king_n	parliament_n	3,205	5	6.3516	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85414	A short ansvver to A. S. alias Adam Stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. Together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which A. Stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. A. Steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page 166. The civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say Presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1644 (1644)	Wing G1201; Thomason E27_6; ESTC R8324	30,557	41

and Gomorrah than for many people amongst whom Christ wrought most of his miracles Know you not that many who live and dye Papists because through ignorance as Paul whilst he persecuted the Saints 1. Tim. 1. 13. Whom God therefore had mercie on shall rise up in judgement against all Protestants which know Gods will and do it not Doe you not take it to be mad doctrin of Pauls when he presupposes there may bee a case when the best Christians I say not Presbyterians may nay ought never more eat flesh drinke wine nor anything where at a brother stumbleth is offended or made weake And yet if you beleeve Rom. 14. 21. 1. Cor 8. 13. you may finde it Evangelical a little othergates than such stuffe as you baptize with Orthodox and then think it pleaseth the Holy Ghost because such men such dust and ashes as your selfe know no better that all the world will they nill they must fall down and worship it If Independents say they have no faith in communicating with your mixt multitude and joyning in an English Directory alias a Scotch Common-prayer-booke and you notwithstanding by imprisoning or discountenancing compel them to it doe you not make them commit Idolatrie Are they not damned because they doubt thereof Rom. 14. 23. Can the Priests in Frame the Divels in Hell or Presbyterians anywhere do worse by Protestants But you promise largely you say the Presbyterians will not compel the Independents to act against their consciences only you will not suffer them to seduce other mens consciences What an Agrippa-like halfe Christian paradox is this Doth the truth constraine you to acknowledge that compelling Independents to joyn with you in your mixt communions and stinted worship against their consciences would amount unto Idolatrie and may they not instruct their Famelies friends brethren and all such who gaspe after a word of knowledge or but desire to be instructed by them how to decline Idolatrie and worship God in sincerity and truth Did not Nature engrave it in the hearts of al men that it is better to obey God than man Did not the Apostles for our clearer understanding resolve it when 't was made a question Act 4. 19. Are not all such condemned for unproffitable servants who put a candle under a bushel For lapping up their tallent in a napkin For not strengthning others after they themselves are converted And though you so often upbraid this as a licentious course and way to let in all Heresie and impiety have patience if I tell you the Papists say the verie same for excluding Protestantisme out of their Dominions and neither you as profownd an AS as you take your selfe to be nor all the Presbyterians in the world can say one tittle more than Papists doe in this behalfe now wherein your Divinity your Disciplin your Righteousnes exceeds not that of Papists take it not so hainously that Independents who have not so learned Christ may not dare not joyne with you yet if upon a second consideration hereof you shall still remain head-strong banishing all farther truth left some Heresies should creepe in therewith good now do but discover to us a possibility how after the Presbyterian rule which according to AS sayes the Civil Magistrate has power not to admit the true Church or to turne it out though it had beene admitted and established by low The Roman Church can ever be reformed or the Iewes converted to the Gospel Concerning the Churches of New-England you say their Independency is worse than Heresie you strengthen your selfe in denying them a toleration in Old-England because they will not graunt you one in New-England and yet you bid them begon thither and live in peace but tell me a little how can they be secure in New-England from the omnipotency of the Presbyterian Disciplin which is as covetuous and ambitious as Rome it selfe which claim 's no lesse than all the World ought you not to endeavour their conversion equal to your brethrens of Old-England and that as well unto your Disciplin as to your doctrin Are their soules not worth saving Or their Country not worth living in the soile is thought no whit inferiour if not better then the best in Old-England though there be not so good plundering for money and rich moveables But why should not the soules of your New-English Brethren bee as deare unto you as those of Old-England Or though your Brethren of New-England should know the way to heaven of themselves How can you with a quiet mind endure they should get thither without your Passe your Mittimus your Peter-pence Or why may not the Old-English be thought as charitably on or find the like favour from your over dilligent Presbyerie But put the case you did really desire the New-English their conversion you approve of them in suffering no opinions to be published but their owne If this Disciplin be strictly observed How can they possibly attaine to better light and knowledge What course will you take for their informing for convincing them of this worse than Heretical tenet as you call it if to their's and your Church pollicy they should lykewise attaine as sharp a Civil sword as yours Or put case that even your own most excellent Doctorship were not so sound or orthodox as self conceited which many have strong presumptions for who are thought better able to judge thereof than AS himselfe will you put your selfe in an impossibilitie of ever being reformed except tumultuously or illegally both waies compulsively Was ever any AS so dull so stupid so voide both of Civil and Christian policie But what shall I say unto you since according to your Theologie nothing is so likely to prevaile with you as cudgelling Page 172. You say that refusing to tolerate the Independents will helpe to confirme the Churches and people in the truth of Presbyterian Diciplin and Doctrin that many men are led by authority and take many things upon the trust of great men c. Phy AS Are you not asham'd thus to uncover the nakednesse of your Churches To tell us and them that the Presbyterian world takes up a religion and government upon trust And if the Venerable and learned Assemblie as you stile them should not graunt a toleration of any thing but Poprie or Turcisme would not your good people whom you speake of be as easily confirmed of the truth thereof Surely they will unlesse they bee wiser than their Anchesters which will not be beleeved Page 179. You ask What power hath either King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdome new religions or a toleration of all Sects And say the Parliament assumes no such power to it selfe If this bee true How can it settle not to say intrude as AS does improperly and unmannerly the Scotch Presbyterian disciplin in England more than the Independency of New-English Churches For since the Churches of Scotland and New England for Doctrin agree in fundamentals differ onely in Disciplin

controvesie it may bee said in behalfe of Independents that unlesse differing and erroneous opinions bee tolerated the most orthodox and rectified are equally Subject to bee persecuted On the other side Presbyterians say that the permitting differing opinions in a State is to open a flood-gate to all manner of Heresies and Schysmes What if wee did suppose these to bee the two Great Rocks of offence which in some sense were no otherwise than Scylla and Charibdis one of which you could not avoide without adhering unto the other Does it not remaine then that wee should consider which of them is accompained with the greatest inconveniences The latter presupposes a possibilitie of entrance unto all Heresies the former concludes a certainty of with-holding a great measure of Truth and even a possibility of keeping out the whole Truth Now this truth is like God himself even verie God himselfe invallewable we may not hazard the least attom the smalest proportion thereof for al other possibilities or impossibilities whatsoever What Shall we put our selves into such a condition that if we be in an errour it shall be impossible for us to get out of it againe unlesse the whole Civil State the men of war the world doe see it as clearely as our selves That if as yet wee have but some degrees of truth and knowledge it shall be impossible for us to attain to greater That though we were in possession of the true Religion wee should bee liable to have it taken from us by everie sharper Civil sword than our owne This is your Doctrin page 13. where you say the Civil Mgistrate though Christian has power to admit Christian Religion or when admitted to exile it afterwards but God keepe such Presbyterian Principles from farther taking root in England But if King and Parliament may not force a new religion or Sect suppose Presbyterian upon the Kingdome much lesse can the Synod which neither has nor yet pretends as is alleadged to use the materiall sword And if for matters of religion all power originally is in Christ as you sometimes acknowledge page 179. How can King Parliament or Synod wrest it from him Nay what thinke you Is it not secondarily in the people as well as Civil power which you affirme in the same page And so doubtlesse is spiritual power unlesse you will make God to have provided mankind better of a safegard or libertie to defend their bodies than their soules If then the spirituall power be so inherently in the people next under Christ as that they cannot so well renounce and part from it in many respects by what they may of Civil how can it be thought by any one that the King Parliament or Synod though never so much importun'd by a thousand such AS ses should goe about to settle a N●w Presbyterian Scotch Government with an intention to force a conformity of the whole Kingdome three quarters whereof cannot as yet be thought to submit unto it willingly or for conscience sake Page 180. and elsewhere you advise the Independents to quit their fat Benefices but Presbyterian know how to quit the leane Benefices without your counsel And where doe you find the Independents in such fat Benefices What if you cannot find one of them in a fat Benefice Will you not say good cause why because the Presbyterians would quickly heave them out and get themselves ●n If they find any fatter than an other and bee so liquorish If they regard neither flock nor the Great shepheard of the flock Christ Jesus but with Esa●h or Judas prefer 30. pence or a fat Benefice before them both let them at least carry it more cau●elo●sly and not ●●● skipping so from one fat Benefice or Lecture unto a fatter that all the world cry shame of them I need not name them they are knowne to everie bodie but themselves But prithee A. S tell mee do'st thou not intend this as a pious plot and Master-peece of thine to accuse the Independents of fat Benefices that they may bee provok'd to vindicate themselves by discovering who they were amongst the Presbyterian Rabbies that solicited so actively and dextrously obtaining such an Ordnance for Tithes as all the subtle invention● of Antichristian Bishops could never get the like Who they were that had more than a finger in helping sundrie Ministers out of their Livings partly for not paying the twentyeth part and other taxes and so soone as Presbyterians had filld all Benefices and Lectures to move that Ministers might then bee totally freed from all manner of ●essment● and is it not fitting it should bee so think you That they should set and keepe the Kingdome on ● fire in ● desparate bloody Civil warre and yet bee totally exempted from contributing towards quenching towards obtaining of a blessed peace I know these Heathenish Jewish Popish notions of Tythes Offerings and 〈…〉 ons were long since abominated and abolished amongst our Scottish Brethren And A. S. does well in not flattering the English Presbyterians therein lest Independents should be farther scandaliz'd at him who it is well knowne are not guilty of such Si●oni● they 〈…〉 bargaine of the Ministerie of the Gospel as if it were an unholy thing or themselves like so many Coblers or Shoe-makers to prostitute their labours to them that proffer most they compel noe man to buy of them whether they will or no much lesse at what price they themselves will what God requires to be given for nothing Esa. 55. 1. 2 They force no man to pay for that he never had as Presbyterians doe such as cannot with a good conscience communicate with them in their ordinances as if a Tayl●r or Hatter should wrench your money from you though you lik'd not would not have his wares his service who will may see the Bloody Tenet and Iohn Baptist concerning tythes more largely Pag. 181. You say the power of the Ministerie or Ecclesiastical power is able and sufficient to beat down all fin spiritually But pray tell me can fin be sin politically and not be fin spiritually Now if Ecclesiasticall power can beat down sin spiritually as you acknowledge Will it not follow that fin so beaten down spiritually ceases to bee sin at all either spiritually or politically and consequently no neede of Civil power to punish it But to be briefe as the Title promised for me Our Saviour bids us do as we would be done to that is Love our Neighbours as our selves on which commandment hangs the Law and Prophets Math. 7. 12. and 22. 39. 40. and Paul tels us that Love is the fulfilling of the whole Law Rom. 13 10. Nay our Saviour would not have us dare to aske forgivenesse of our heavenly Father otherwise than as we forgive our Brethren Math. 6. 12. 14. 15. Now amongst all sorts of transgressours there is no one offendeth so highly so undoubtedly against this law of loving his neighbour as himselfe or doing as hee would bee done to as he that

A SHORT ANSWER To A. S. ALIAS ADAM STEWART'S Second part of his overgrown Duply to the two Brethren Together with Certaine difficult questions easily answered All which A. Stewart is desired to consider of without replying unlesse it be to purpose A. Steuart in his second part of his Duply to the two Brethren page 166. The Civill Magistrate cannot bee Orthodox and tollerate a new Sect hee meanes Independencie and may as well say Presbytery unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys or some other waye so to doe Proverb 12. 13. The wicked is snared by the trasgression of his lips but the iust shall come out of trouble Printed in the Yeare 1644. THREE OF A STEVART'S CONCLVSIONS with their PARALELLS which are added for better explanation of them their contradicting of themselves and their rebellious Doctrine CONCLUSION 1. Pag. 105. The Supreame Ecclesiasticall Judicature itselfe may fear that if they judge any thing amisse their judgements will not bee approved and put in execution in perticular Churches and in all probability they are like to bee crossed iust as much as Independents aske for by this ensuing Paralell PARALELL Particular Churches or Congregations may examin the iudgements of the supreme Ecclesiastical Iudicature and if they find them to bee amisse they may refuse to put them in execution they may crosse them CONCLVSION 2. Pag. 30. The Civil Magistrate is subject in a spirituall way unto the Church Hee must learne Gods will by the Ministers of the Church who are Gods Ambassadours sent to him Hee must bee subject unto Ecclesiasticall Censures CONCLVSION 3. Pag. 166. Whatsoever the Ecclesiasticall Senate or Presbiterie is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the Church That the Civil Magistrate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the State Neither is the Civil Magistrate lesse bound to put it out of the State than the Presbyterie is to put it out of the Church Exquisite Poperie Pestilent Doctrine as appeares yet more clearely by this following Paralell PARALELL If the Presbytery shall think good to excommunicate King or Parliament the Civil Magistrate the people in whom the Soveraign power resid●s originally pag. 167. is absolved from all obedience and bound to put them out of the Civil State A TAST OF A. STEVART'S EXTRAVAGANCIES and contradictions in the second part of his Duply to the two Brethren Page 13. The Civill Magistrate even as Christian has power not to admit the true Religion to reject it yea when it is receaved or approved and confirmed by his secular and Civill authority to reject it and exile it If the Church bee corrupt and Church Officers negligent in their charge and will not reforme it as the Magistrate thinks good hee may command yea compell them to do it When the Church is reformed hee may command them when they are negligent to bee diligent in their charge If hee conceave they oppres any man in their Ecclesiastical judgements and censures against the lawes of the Kingdome hee may desire them yea command them to reverse their judgements and in case they reforme them not againe command them yea compel them by his Civill power to give him satisfaction according to the lawes of the Kingdome if hee conceave they derogate not from the lawes of God which neither Popish nor Turkish Magistrates will acknowledge though their lawes bee never so contrary to the word of God Page 166. The Civill Magistrate if hee follow Gods word cannot grant a tolleration of Independent Churches without consent of the Church if hee judge it is not corrupted as if the Church being corrupted the Magistrate may bee corrupt too and tolerate what hee will Page 47. How be it The Church compel not to subscribe yet the Civill Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell to subscribe or to begon Pag. 179. What power hath the King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdome new religions or a tolleration of all Sects the Parliament assume no such power unto it selfe A short Answer to A. S. alias Adam Stewarts second part of his overgrown Duply to the two Brethren SIr Had you concealed your selfe under the two first letters of your name all the A. S'es in Towne and Country would never have beene able to cleare themselves for what you make but words of however I may not adde a tittle in commendation of you for Preamble to this Pamphlet as you tell us and is no more then requisite to justifie your own Epistle is ordinary with writers in dedication of their bookes least I bee put to a more shamefull recantation then A. S. was and that for nothing but what charitie as himselfe confesses induced him to acknowledge in behalfe of the Apologists Give mee leave then to observe first that pag. 21. 23. you say Idolatry is a sin against the second Commandment Juris naturalis perpetui insinuating that the power and duty of punishing both Idolatrie and Heresie is such also If so then it obliges all Nations of the world and consequently supposes them capable to judge of all manner of Idolatrie and Heresie which we see to bee notoriously false and that besides the confounding Ecclesiasticall with Civil power whilest one State punishes this or that for Heresie it cannot possibly bee otherwise since they are not onely different but diametrically opposite in profession but that another must canonize it for a sacred truth secondly if States and Powers must punish Hereticks they are bound to punish those for such onely who in their owne judgements are such and if you will engage States in punishing of Hereticks and they punish onely such as they find themselves obliged to punish in their own consciences and understandings How can you according to your doctrine blame them for punishing Gods dearest children instead of Hereticks since they tooke them to bee Hereticks and thought they had done God and you good service to punish them If wee may not suffer Hereticks to live amongst us then is the Parliament to blame for suffering German French Spanish and Portugal Papists or Dutch Brownists and Anabaptists to live here amonst us though as Marchants onely for a time since their marchandizing gives them greater advantage of working people to their opinions by the respective civil conveniences and benefits which they bring both to the whole Nation in generall and to some in particular nay the very Ambassadours of what States or Potentates soever of different religions ought not to bee permitted to reside Ledgers amongst us under any pretence if this doctrine bee Evangelicall So likewise may not wee under pretext of marchandize live in Turkish Popish Lutheran or other Countreys differing from us in religion travel into such parts for fashion sake as is usuall nor keepe Ambassadours there nor bee by forrain States permitted to remain amongst them if we would or on any termes joine with such in wedlock Man may by no meanes dispence herewith if the command

safely betake himself to that wherein he apprehends more evidence of the two and though it prove the wrong yet God may accept of his indeavours and good intension who did not blame Isaack for thus blessing Jacob through an errour who yet since he had suspition of him by his voice might have satisfyde himselfe concerning him had he but felt the other parts of his body which were not counterfetted Paul likewise although he was a great blasphemer and Persecuter 1. Tim. 1. 13. Act. 26. 9. 10. 11. Yet he said of himselfe that hee had lived in all good conscience before God untill that day Act. 23. 1. It is a very smale thing that I should bee judged of mans judgement I judge not my selfe for I know nothing by my selfe 1. Cor. 4. 3. 4. and Rom. 14. 6. It is said Hee that regardeth a day regardeth it to the Lord and hee that regardeth not the day unto the Lord he doth not regard it Hee that eateth eateth to the Lord for he giveth God thanks and hee that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not and giveth God thanks From all which way he gathered that a good meaning and intention is greatly excusable before God though it were in an erroneous way of fearing him For all which respects the Presbyterians do not only show themselves injurious in distip ●●ing and ruling over their brethren over whom they have no power being Freemen Free-Christians equall to themselves but sacriledgious to Gods bountifulnesse and long suffering who like the Scribes Pharises Hypocrites lay heavie burthens upon others but they themselves will not put a finger to Luk. 11. 46. who streighten if not quite dam up the way to heaven not suffering others to enter nor yet goe in themselves Math. 23. 13. Good now let us fast or feast let us observe Holy-dayes or not and so for other matters according as Gods spirit shall guide us thereunto and not the Spirit of a Presbyterie unlesse wee could see more in it than in our own Pag. 105. You say The supreame Church Iudicatorie may feare that if they judge any thing amisse their judgments will not be approved and put in Execution with perticular Churches and in all human probability they are like to be crossed Pray demur a little and consider whether in these few lines you have not utterly demolished that mighty but imaginary Babel of unlimmited authoritative Jurisdiction which you had raised unto your Classical Presbyteries or Superlative Ecclesiastical Assemblies Doe you not here of your own accord acknowledge that in some cases i. e. If they judge any thing amisse the Supreme Church Judioature it selfe may feare ●er judgements will not be approved and put in execution so much as in perticular congregations yea and that in all humane probability they are like to be crossed Since then you graunt your Synods and highest Church Assemblies may judge amisse and that in such cases perticular Churches may refuse to yeeld obedience will it not follow by undenyable consequence that such perticular Churches must have Power to examin and even judge the judgements of such Assemblies according to their owne reasons and understandings And that whatsoever shall appeare to bee decreed or ordered amisse by such Ecclesiastical Assemblies according to the light of their own reason and understanding which God has given them and not to be submitted unto with a good conscience ought and must not be put in execution by perticular congregations This is your owne doctrin sometimes though unawares For even on the top of the next page 109. where you bring M. S. enquiring what should be done in case an Oecumenical or General Counsel erre you say you wil returne him answer when hee tells you what must bee done in case the Parliament should erre or if the great Sanedrin of the Old Testament or the Councel of Jerusalem had erred and yet you might remember to have objected thrice in this frivolous discourse of yours upon the like occasion that Quaestio non solvit qu●stionem But do you not perceive a little spirit of perversenes in your selfe that you can thus prevaricate thus play at fast and loose Did you not just now confesse oh the power of truth That if the very supreme Church Judicature should judge amisse shee may feare her judgement will not be approved and put in execution by perticular congregations And doe you so soone boggle at the same Querie afterwards Will not this smal pittance of ingenuity reconcile you how fierce soever unto the Independents Either then recant this and such other passages or stand to them and burn that confused volumne of Sophistical distinctions and meere contradictions Pag. 170. 171. You say the example of the Protestants in France suing for a toleration of their Religion serves nothing towards the obtaining the like for Independents in England But why pray so Magisteriall and peremptory Have not the Independents fought for the Parliament against the Cavaleers Did they not refuse to joyn with the Cavaliers in fighting against the Scots Your Presbyterian Disciplin had scarce been setled in Scotland by Civil and Ecclesiastical authority which you so much boast of in page 160. if Independents had not done that for you which you were not able to do for your selves And doe you thus require them Was there not the same reason for the Scots some few yeares since to have submitted themselves unto the English service-booke then adored by such an English uniformity and sent yea attempted to bee imposed upon them by the Ecclesiastical authority of England as that the English and Irish two numerous and renowned Nations must now be subjugated by fire and sword unto a Scotch Directory Surely if there be a God in Heaven or any conscientiousnesse on earth it will never bee or never long endure nescis quid serus vesper trabat you say the Protestants of France were compelled to idolatry and to bee actors in the damnation of their owne soules against the light of their consciences And what if it be said the Presbyterians professe and practise the same against the Independents against all that differ from them barely in opinion All the principles which concerne coercive Discipline in about or for the Church are common both to Papists and Presbyterians Insted of arguments and reason Will you not say 't is false foolish fond idle ignorant childish currish contradictorie impertinent non sence nothing but wind and words of Goodwin page 169. c. How long will this Great Goliah of the Presbyterians thus boast himselfe How long will the braying of this fowle mouth'd AS disquiet the people of God Pack up your pedl●rs budget of such absurd distinctions abominable contradictions unsufferable tautalogies to say no worse and be gon even anywhere that we may be quit of you speake or write to instruction or edifying hereafter or else hold your peace for shame of God and men But do you not know that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom