not his sonne Ezechias And did not the same Ezechias brake the brasen Serpent 4. Reg. 18. bicause the people had burned Incense to it Yea and when the Priestes did any thing in the reformation of Religion did they it not by the appointment and at the commaundement of those good kings Dauid Salomon Ezechias and Iosias Reade the History of the kings and you shall sée And what did Christ come to take this Authority from Princes And hath hée taken it from them and giuen it to Peter and his Successors Hée him selfe hath acknowledged that authority in Princes in that hée payde Tribute to the Emperour both for him selfe and for Peter Math. 17. In the 13. Chapter to the Romaines Math 17. saint Paule declareth that the paying of Tribute is an acknowledging of the highest authority in Princes Chrysostome Chrysost in Rom. 13. expounding that place of Saint Paules Epistle writeth thus Cur enim inquit vectigalia Regi damus Nunquid tanquam prospicienti Nunquid tanquam praesidenti curae tuitionisque mercedem soluentes For why saith hée doo wée giue Tribute to the king Doo wée not giue it as vnto him that hath a prouident care for vs Doo wée it not as men that pay vnto him that hath the rule of vs the wages or hyer that is due to him for the care that hée hath to defend vs 1 Peter 2 And dooth not Saint Peter from whom your Bishops and Priests doo claime their high authority write thus in the second Chapter of his first Epistle Subdite igitur estote c. Bée yée subiect therefore to euery humaine creature euen for the Lords cause whether it be to the king as to him that excelleth either to Dukes as to them that are sent of him for the punishment of euill dooers but for â—he praise of them that bée good For so is the will of God that behauing your selues well you may stop the mouthes of foolish and Ignoraunt men as being free and not hauing the liberty for a cloke of maliciousnes but as the seruants of God Thus if you haue eyes to sée you may sée that the very testimonies that you haue alleaged being taken in their right sence doo prooue sufficiently that though no learned Protestant can prooue or dooth or hath affirmed that our Sauiour Christ did commit the chiefe charge and supreme gouernmeÌ„t of his Chruch to Emperors kings c. Yet the chiefe charge sepreme gouernment of men of all sorts hath bin alwaies is still and euer shal be in such Potentats euen by the ordinance of God him selfe as by the other testimonies that I haue alleaged dooth most manifestly appeare And where as you require the learned Protestant to prooue that any one of Christes Apostles or Disciples did by preaching the Protestants doctrine conuert any people lande or countrey from their Idolatry and Ethnike kinde of liuing to Christian faith and Religion as of onely faith to iustifie c. I say that neuer any one of the Apostles or Disciples of Christ were the meanes that God vsed in the conuerting of any one lande people or countrey by the preaching of any other doctrine then that which you call the Protestants doctrine You note sixe points of doctrine preached by the Protestants which as you say neither the Apostles nor any Disciple of Christ preached First that faith onely iustifieth Secondly that all good works are vncleane in the sight of God Thirdly that there is no frée will Fourthly that the body of Christ is not really present in the Eucharist Fiftly that the blessed Masse is not a Sacrifice And sixtly the abolishing of Christes Sacraments and all the graces and goodnes that is conferred to vs by them For the first I say that Christ him selfe hath taught it in that hée hath sayd thus Mar. 16. Qui crediderit baptizatus fuerit saluus erit Qui vere non crediderit coâ—demnabitur Marci 16 Hée that shall belieue and bée baptized shal be saued But hée that shall not belieue shal be condemned Saint Paule hath taught it to the Romaines Chap. 5. Rom. 5. in these woords Justificati ergo ex fide pacem habeamus ad Deum per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum per quem habemus accessum per fidem in gratiam istam in qua stamus gloriamar in spe gloriae filiorum Dei. Being iustified by faith therefore let vs bee at peace with God through our Lord Iesus Christ by whom wée haue accesse through faith into this grace wherein wée stand and doo reioyce in the hope of the glorie of the children of God To take from you all occasion of quarrelling I haue cited the words of S. Paule as I finde them in your allowed latine translation Although I doo know that in the gréeke it is thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Pacem habemus And not habeamus Wée haue peace and let vs not haue peace but to a simple meaning minde the sence is all one whether wée say wee haue peace or let vs haue peace And in the end of the sentence it maketh no difference to say wée glory or reioyce in the hope of the sonnes of God or wee reioyce in the hope of the glory of God For take it which way yee will Saint Paules meaning must néedes bée that wée are iustified that is wée apprehend and lay hold vpon frée discharge of our sinnes that wée haue by the mediation of Christ onely by faith and by none other meane And againe in the second Chapter to the Ephesians Ephe. 2. Saint Paule writeth thus Gratia enim estis saluati per fidem hoc non ex vobis Dei enim dâ—num est non ex operibus ne quis glorietur For by grace that is frée mercy you are saued thorough faith and that not 〈…〉 selues For it is the gifte of God and commeth not of workes least any man should boaste The Epistles of the Apostle Paule are full of matter to prooue this pointe of doctrine to bee true The second pointe of doctrine is as you doo terme it the contempt of good workes and that they bee all vncleane in the sight of God Wee contemne not good workes but wée esteeme of them as they ought to bee esteemed of that is as of the good fruites of a good faith And wée teach that no workes may bée accounted good otherwise or in any other respect but as they bée the fruits of a good faith This point of doctrine was taught by our sauiour Christ when hée sayd thus Lucae 17. Cum feceritis omnia quae praecepta sunt vobis Lucae 17. dicite serui inutiles sumus Quod de buimus facere fecimus When yee shall haue doone all that you are commaunded to doo then say we are vnprofitable seruants We haue doone that our duety was to doo And againe in the 20. of Mathew Math. 20. in the Parable of the labourers that laboured in the Vineyarde Volo autem
commit the chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Church c. Is altogither vnnecessarie for neuer did any of that sorte affirme that to bée true Wée doo all know that our Sauiour Christ did not call Emperours Kings Quéenes nor Princes to make them his messengers or Apostles but he called Fisher men and such other and made them able and méete to doo his message euen to Princes and Emperours and to all other the greatest personages in the world As saint Paule writeth 1. Cor. 1. 1 Cor 1 Quae stulta sunt mundi elegâ— Deus vt confundat sapientes c. God hath chosen the foolish things of the world that hée might confounde the wise and God chose the weake things of the world to confounde the stronge and the base and dispised thinges of the world hath God chosen yea and those thinges that bée not that hée might destroy those thinges that bée Yea and wée doo know that God did not prepare the hearts of the Princes and chiefe men of the world to receiue the doctrine of the gospell with the first so that the Apostle Paule had occasion to write thus to the same Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 1 Cor 1 Videte vocationem vestram c. Brethren consider your calling for there are not amongst you many wise men after the flesh not many mighty not many of noble Parentage c. Yea in the daies wherein Saint Augustin cliued which was 400. yéeres after the ascention of our sauiour Christ it séemed a strange thing euen in the City of Rome that any man of any account in the world would become a Christian man For when Victorinus a famous Rhethorician in that City would professe the Religion of Christ and be baptized hée did it as Saint Augustine hath written Confessionum lib. 8. cap. 2. Mirante Roma gauâ—â—nte Ecclesia August lib 8 Cap 2 Rome meruelling and the Church of Christ in Rome reioyceing There is therefore no cause why you shoulde require the learned Protestant to prooue by plain Scriptures that our Sauiour Christ did commit the chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Church to Emperors c. But this the Protestants doo hold and are able to prooue by plaine places of the Scriptures that Emperors Kings Quéenes Princes Dukes and all other Potentates are the supreme gouernours of those peoples ouer whom God hath placed them whether the same people bée by profession Christians or Miscreants Yea and that the chiefe charge that euery of these Potentates haue from God is that they shall in their owne persons walke in the Lordes wayes and leade their people in the same And for that cause they are in the Scriptures called Pastores that is Shéepeheards as in the 44. Cha. of his Prophecies Esay 44 Esaie speaking in the person of God saith Qui dico Cyro Pastor meus 〈◊〉 omnem voluntatem meam complebis That is Which doo say vnto Cyrus thou arte my Shéepeheard and thou shalt fulfill all my will Cyrus was an Heathen prince and yet the Lord calleth him his Shéepeheard and commaundeth him to fulfill all his will and pleasure King Dauid being a Shéepheard in déede was taken from the Shéepefold and made king ouer all Israell that hée might féede that people of the Lord euen as a Shéepeheard féedeth his flocke And hée did rule them prudently with all his possible powre Psal 78. Psalm 78 And that these Potentates might bée able to discharge that duety that the Lord God hath appointed them to doo hée hath giuen vnto them the powre of the Sword as in the 13. Rom 13. Chapter to the Romaines it appeareth Principes saith Saint Paule non sunt timori boni operis sed mali c. Princes are not to bée feared of them that doo well but of them that doo euill Wilt thou bée without feare of the Potentate Doo well and thou shalt bée praised of him For hée is Gods minister to doo the good But if thou doo euill then feare him for hée beareth not a Sword for nought Hée is Gods minister to take vengeance on him that dooth euill c. At that time wherein the Apostle wrote those woordes to the Romaines there was not one Christian Prince as it may bée thought in all the world And yet hée dooth certifie the Romaines that euen those heathen Princes were ordained of GOD for the benefit of Christians as of all other sortes of men that world bend them selues to walke in hys wayes and not contynue in ignoraunce of lyfe And for the punishment of all such as should giue them selues to leade a dissolute life Yea and it belonged to the office euen of those Princes not onely to vse the powre of the Sword in defending Innocents and in punishing wicked doers but also to set foorth aduaunce and maintaine right and true Religion as in the holy Histories it dooth appeare that they did as often as by any occasion their hearts were touched with the feare of GOD As Darius the Persian Emperour when hee had séene the mighty powre of GOD in preseruing Daniell in the Lyons den did hee not write immediately to all his subiects commaunding them to feare to stand in awe of Daniels God confessing him to be the lyuing and euerlasting God that his kingdome powre is euerlasting and that it is hée that deliuereth and saueth worketh woonders both in Heauen in Earth Daniel 6. Daniel 6. The same Darius as it appeareth in the sixt Chapter of the first booke of Esdras coÌ„maunded that the Temple in Hierusalem which had bin destroyed by the Babylonians should bée reedified as king Cyrus had commaunded and that it should bée furnished with all things necessary and meete for the seruice of God 1. Esdras 1. 6. 1. Esd 1. 6 And amongst the good kings of Israell and Iuda Dauid not without a secret motion from God I am sure did cause the Arke of Gods couenant to bée brought to Hierusalem and placed in a Tabernacle which hée had prepared for it there yea and in his owne person hée vsed all such behauiour as might tend to the setting foorth of the glorie of God and abase him selfe in the sight of God and at his owne charges hée caused much sacrifice to bée offered to the Lord and afterward hée blessed the people of the Lord and gaue rewards of meate drinke to euery one of them as well the women as the men As appeareth in the sixt Chapter of the second booke of Samuell which you call the second of the kings 2. Reg. 6 And I pray you good M. Offerer who was hée whom God appointed to build his Temple in Hierusalem was it not Salomon the king And did not hée builde it in déed and furnish it according as the Lord had coÌ„maunded him Tertij Reg. 5. c. And who reformed Religion destroied the Idols that king Achas had caused to bee set vp in the Temple was it
gospell and haue imbraced and professed and doo still professe most vnpure Popish religion The booke was first written by the aboue named Iohn de Albine as it may be thought either in the Latine or in the French tonge Wherefore I meane not to bestow any time in the answering of it supposing that either Beza or some other French Protestant hath already dealt therein sufficiently But because the offers séeme to be made by some English man and haue not as I thinke béene aunswered by any man I haue thought good to supply the place of that learned Protestant that the Popish Catholique ment to make the offers vnto And that the Offerer if hee be yet liuing or any fréende of his if he be departed this lyfe may not haue any cause to mislike with my dealing herein I minde to setfoorth to the view of the Reader all the words of the Offerer euen as I finde them and as I haue them to shew in his printed Coppie which I haue and doo mind to kéepe in a readinesse to shewe not abiding or dimnishing altering or changing one sentence worde sillable letter or title The Offerer beginneth thus The Offerer First seeing it cannot bee denied that our sauiour Christ before his departure and ascension did commit the charge and gouernment of his Church the testimony of his worde the truth of his gospell the ministration of his Sacraments to his Apostles and Disciples and that not only for them selues but to their successors Bishops and Priests and to none other saying only to them Euntes docete omnes gentes Math. 28. Marc. 16. Goe yee and teach all people and nations of the world baptizing them in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghoste teaching them to obserue and keepe all things which I haue commaunded you Further the Apostle Saint Paule being at Miletum in executing of his charge gouernment gaue this admonition to the Bishops and Priestes there assembled before him saying Attēdite vobis et vniuer so gregi Act. 20. Take heed vnto your selues and vnto the whole flocke of Christ in the which the holy ghost hath ordayned you Bishops Regere ecclesiam Dei To gouerne the Church of God And in the thirteenth Chapter of his Epistle to the Hebrews hee dooth commaunded all other sortes of men without exception of Emperours Kings Queenes and Princes to obay their Bishops and priestes saying Heb. 13. Obedite praepositis vestris subiacete eis ipsi enim peruigilant quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri Obey your Prelates and doo what they appoint you for they doo watch as men that shall render accomptes for your soules Seeing that by the testimonies before alleadged it can not bee denyed but that the charge and gouernment of Chryst his Church the preaching of his doctrine the admninistration of his Sacramentes was by him committed to his Apostles and Dysciples and to all Byshoppes and Priestes as Successours of them to plante Chrystian fayth and Religion in his Catholique Church vniuersally throughout all Nations Coastes and Quarters of the world Seeing this is by the playnnesse of the sayd testimonies of such an vndoubted truth that it cannot bee denyed now let the learned protestant affirming princes to bee the supreme heades of the Church eyther shew by some such other like playne testymonies of the Scriptures that our Sauiour Chryst did commit the chyefe charge and supreme gouernement of his Church to Emperours Kings Queenes and Princes to plant Christian fayth and Religion in the same or that any one of Chryst his Apostles or Disciples did conuert any people Lande or Countrey from their Idolatrie and Ethnike kinde of liuing to Christian faith and Religion by preaching the doctrine of the Protestants as of onely faith to iustifie the contempt of good workes and that they be all vncleane in sight of GOD the deniall of free will of the real presence of Christes body in the holy Eucharist of the Sacrifice of the most blessed Masse the abolishing Christ his Sacramentes and of all grace and goodnesse by them conferred vnto vs then I shall yeelde and recant and not before Thus farre the first part of the Offer Crowley This Offerer hath deuided this offer of his into 22. parts adding to the last part six certaine and assured signes and tokens of false Prophets Heretickes Schismatickes This diuision I meane to follow in mine answer To this first part therfore I say thus maister Offerer I cōfesse that our Sauiour Christ dyd as you haue sayd committe the charge and gouernement of his Church the testimonye of his worde the trueth of his Gospell and the ministration of his Sacramentes to his Apostles and Scholers and to theyr successors But not to such successours onely as you do name that is to Bishops and Préestes onely and to none other For S. Paule in the 12. Chapter of his first Epistle to the Corinthians and in the 4. to the Ephesians writing of the same matter sayth thus Et ipse dedit quosdam quidem Apostolos Eph 4. quosdam autem Prophetas alios vero Euangelistas alios autem Pastores Doctores And he hath giuen some Apostles or Messengers and some Prophettes and other some Euangelistes and some others Pastors and teachers And againe in the 12. of the first to the Corinthians hee writeth thus 1 Cor 12. Et quosdam posuit Deus in Ecclesia primum Apostolos secundo Prophetas tertio Doctores deinde virtutes exinde gratias curationum opitulationes gubernationes genera linguarum God hath place in his Church certaine degrees of men first Apostles secondly Prophets thirdly teachers then powers after that giftes of healings helpes gouernements kindes of tongues Least you should quarell about the translating of S. Paules wordes out of the Gréeke I haue set them downe as I finde them in that translation that your Tridentine councell hath allowed of But I pray you good M. Offerer what meant S. Paule that in the rehearsall of those sundry degrées of men that God hath placed in his Church he would make no mentiion at al of your Bishops and Préestes to whom onely as to the onely successours of his Apostles and Disciples Christ spake if you haue written truely when he sayd thus Math. 28 Euntes docete omnes gentes Goe ye and teach all nations of the worlde c. Without all doubt S. Paule dyd know and so doo wée that God dyd neuer place in his Church or appoint to succéede his Apostles and Disciples any such Bishops and Préestes as you meane of That is Lording and loitring Bishops exercising dominion ouer the peoples that are alotted vnto them and sawsie sacrificing Préests which presume to occupie the place of Christ himselfe and to execute his office in offering sacrifice for the sinnes of the people S. Peter disaloweth the one 1. Pet. 5. and S. Paule the other Hebr. 10. Hebr 1◠1 Peter ◠Yea if our
those Ceremonies To bée briefe the first Catholique church did acknowledge none to bée her vniuersall head but Christ Iâ—sus onely and shée submitted her selfe to bee gouerned in matters of faith by his spirite which spirite did in déede gouerne hir in the vnderstanding of the scriptures which are the rule of Christian Religion And in ciuill gouernement shee submitted herselfe to Princes and other Potentats acknowledging that God hath giuen vnto them the power of the sword and hath made them his reuengers vpon earth coÌ„maunding them to vse that power in defending innocents and in punishing of such as doo transgresse his lawes But your Romish Catholique church must haue a Pope to bee hir vniuersall head vnder the name of Christes vicar generall and hee must haue absolute power vpon earth diriued from the Apostle Peter that neuer tooke vpon him selfe any such power but willed all Christians to submit themselues to all estates of men euen for the Lord Iesus sake Yea hee willed them to honour all men to loue brotherly fellowship to feare God and to honour the king 1. Peter 2. 1. Peter 2. But your Pope must haue power ouer all men euen ouer Princes to whom Peter submitted him selfe and willed al christians to doo the like Yea hée must haue power to depose all such Princes as will not bow to him and bee his Executioners in executing the paines of death vpon all such as it pleaseth him to take for Heretikes Such Princes dooth your Pope take vpon him to depose to depriue them of all princely dignitie to set vp in their place such as will submit them selues vnto him become his sworne vassalles And that he may the more easily bring these things to passe hée absolueth all the subiects of such Princes from their dutifull oth of obedience which they haue dutifully taken to those their leage and naturall Princes Yea as late and daily practises doo teach they spare not to promise the kingdome of God to such subiects as will most vndutifully most vnnaturally murder not onely their naturall countrimen but also their naturall Princes By these differences it apreareth how great the difference is betwixt the first Romish church which was in déede Catholique and yours which you call catholique but is in déede Cacolike But now you conclude that if the learned Protestant can prooue that the priuate conuenticles congregations of the Protestants were the first bringers foorth of the sacred Bible and written woord of God the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages from all Iewes Gentiles Heretikes and schismatiks then you wil reuolt and recant as you haue saide before To this I say on the behalfe of the learned Protestant that neither the Catholique church nor any other congregations haue bin the first bringers foorth of the sacred Bible c. For those bookes which are called the Bible were brought foorth and written before our sauiour Christ sayd thus to the Iewes Scrutamini scripturas c. Ioh. 5. Ioh. 5. Serch the scriptures c. And as for the preseruing and defending of them from Iewes Gentiles c. I say that it hath not bin the worke of man but of God him selfe who is the only Author of the same Apocal. 6. In the sixt chapter of saint Iohns Reuelations it is written that when the third seale of that booke which was sealed with seuen seales was opened there was a voyce which came from the midst of the foure beasts which saide to him that sate vpon the blacke horse had a balaunce in his hand Wine and oyle see thou doo not hurt In the iudgment of all learned interpreters wine and oyle doo in that place signifie the scriptures which God would not suffer to bee hurt by any mans interpretation no not in the time of most déepe Ignorance The Iewes could neuer corrupt the text of the Canonicall scriptures although they lacked no good will to haue corrupted them Neither could your Popish catholiques at any time corrupt those scripcures for God hath reserued a Remnant of the Iewes with whom those scriptures are and alwaies haue bin had in such estimation and reuerence that they would neuer leaue them to any that would corrupt them and this hath God wrought by them vsing them as his instruments therein In like manner the Grecians haue bin his instruments in kéeping the Gréeke text both of the olde and newe testament from all manner of Corruption in all partes thereof that doo concerne any parte of the substance of our Religion so that though your Popish Catholiques would as no doubt they are willing enough yet they can not corrupt either the Hebrew or Gréeke text Thus if you will you may sée maister Offerer that God alone by such meanes as hée hath dooth and will vse hath bin the bringer foorth of the sacred Bible and other holy scriptures for the holy men of God did speake as the holy spirite of God did mooue them to speake 2. Pet. 1. 2. Peter 1. And it is hée that hath vsed his good meanes both in discerning of the holy writings from the prophane and also in preseruing and defending of them from all maner corruption Wherefore if you minde to bée as good as your woord you must reuolt and recant The third Offer The Offerer Third Shew mee good reason why yee Protestants doo belieue our Catholique Church enforming and telling you this to bee the woord of God written the true Bible and sacred scriptures and doo refuse to credit hir in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture shee being vndoubtedly led with the spirite of God in them both For if the Catholique Church had the spirit of God in discerning and iudging the true Scriptures of God from the rest not Scriptures why should not wee belieue that same Catholique church gouerned and led by the same spyrite in giuing the true sense meaning and vnderstanding of the Scriptures When yee shal be able to render a sufficient reason of the one and not of the other I shall then yeelde and recant and not before Crowley There is no reason why wée should shewe you good reason why wée doo that thing which none of vs either haue done doo or minde to doo In beliuing that the Bible and scriptures that wee haue is the true Bible and scripture wée doo as the people of Sichar did Iohn the fourth chapter They said to the woman that told them of Iesus Iam non propter tuam orationem credimus c. Iohn 4. Now doo wée belieue not bicause of the tale that thou hast told vs for wee our selues haue heard and doo know that this is very Christ the sauiour of the world Euen so wee confesse that when wee were amongst you wée heard you talke of a Bible scriptures wée were desirous to sée them but you kept them from vs by all the meanes that you coulde deuise but at the
yéeres euen as the tares doo springe vp amōgest the good graine before the time of Haruest yet the field remaineth still a corne field not a field of tares yet the church was still Catholike till the whole state did professe Antichristianisme began to persecute such as continued in the profession of the auncient true Catholike religion which is the same that wée doo now professe you and your sorte doo persecute These haue not bin the worke of cōuenticles priuate congregations as it pleaseth you to terme all the particuler churches of Christ that refuse to take the marke of the beast and to acknowledge your Antichristian church to bee the knowne Catholike church of Christ but they haue bin the fruits that haue spronge out of the same faith and religion that was taught by Christ him selfe by his immediate Apostles receiued belieued professed by the first Catholike christians and is still professed by vs and is fruitfull in vs when ability and oportunity dooth serue In the daies of king Edward the sixt of blessed memory who founded in London Christs Hospitall for the education of fatherles infants S. Bartholmews Hospitall in smithfield and S. Thomas Hospitall in Southwarke for the curing of diseased persons did not the protestant Catholikes make those charitable prouisions doo not they still maintaine the same This Offerer may remēber that his Antichristian catholikes did in the time of quéene Maries raigne attempt to ouerthrowe those foundations agayne Who were the founders of Christs Colledge S. Iohns Trinitie Colledge in Oxforde of Emanuell Marimagdalen Caius Colledge in Cambridge did they not beare the name of protestant Catholikes that founded them Many grammer Schooles also might be named diuers other prouisions that protestant catholikes haue made both for the maintenance and increase of learning and also for the succouring of the poore and néedy If any tares doo spring vp amogst this good graine that haue bin sowne by the enuious man it is no fruit that springeth out of that good faith religion that we professe If your word promise therfore be any thing worth thē I require you to doo the part of an honest man in yéelding recanting The foureteenth Offer Offerer Fourteenth Let the learned protestant name any one fellowship or company of belieuers in the whole Christian world that in all articles of faith and religion be in one vnity in one meaning and beliefe and contented also to captiue submit their seueral meanings to the iudgment of their prelats and spirituall gouerners and of one chiefe head pastor amongst them in all Ecclesiasticall things and causes let I say the learned protestant name any one company thus agreeing amonge themselues and thus humbly affected in Christian faith and religion sauing onely the holie and blessed fellowship of the common knowne Catholike church of Christ and I will then recant and not before Crowley Vnderstanding by the holy blessed fellowship of the cōmon known Catholike church of Christ as I am assured that you doo that Antichristian church that you are of I cōfesse that there cānot any one fellowship or cōpany of belieuers in the whole christian world be named that is such a fellowship or cōpany as you would haue the learned protestant name vnto you for in very déed there is not one fellowship or cōpany of belieuers in the whole world so foolish as to vēter the saluation of their foules vpon the iudgmēt of other men but only that fellowship whereof you are But I doo vtterly deny the fellowship to be the knowne Catholike church of Christ and am bold plainely to affirme that it is the malignant cursed church of Antichrist the filthy synagogue of satan The knowne Catholike church of Christ whereof wée hée dooth agrée in one vnity in one meaning beliefe in all the Articles of the christian faith religion Yea wée all with that whole Catholike church doo captiue submit our seueral meanings to that rule of religion that the holy ghost hath set downe in the scriptures which rule wée doo know to be so perfect that it néedeth no addition alteration or change that man can deuise And as for one chiefe head Pastor we acknowledge none amongst men being assured that our one onely head Christ Iesus that hath promised to be with vs continually euen to the end of the world neither is nor will be from vs but is and still will be with vs and dooth still and will by the working of his holy spirite instruct and leade vs in the true vnderstanding of that rule of our religion that he hath left vnto vs so that wée doo not neither shal we at any time stand in néede of any such chief heade or Pastor as this Offerer speaketh of As for Prelates spirituall gouerners we haue such as bée able to breake minister vnto vs the spirituall foode of our soules as well by preaching expounding vnto vs that rule of our religion as by ministring the sacraments that our sauiour Christ hath ordained commaunded to bée vsed in his Church To these wée giue credit so longe as wée sée that they swarue not from that rule that both they and wée are bounde to followe and they doo not desire to haue credit any further And as touching their example of life wée doo followe it so far foorth as wée sée that they followe Christ and no further For S. Paule did not wish the Corinthians to follow him further then they should sée that hée followed Christ If you bée not obstinately bent to stand to your takling against all reason and christian knowledge this that I haue héere written may suffice to mooue you to recant although hitherto you haue refused so to doo The fifteenth Offer Offerer Fifteene Againe I do demande of the learned protestant whether the Lutherans Zuinglians Illirians Caluinists Confessionists Svvinkfildians Anabaptists and such like be all of one church and congregation or no And if he be able to prooue these sects being of such diuersity in faith and religion to make one church and that euery one of them may giue saluation to their fellowes being so disagreeable one with another in high pointes of faith and religion or that I ought to belieue all those rather then the one true Catholike church of Christ or yet any of these more one then another all of them making such a bolde challenge of the truth of Gods word and gospell When the learned Protestant shal be able by good reason or drift of argumēt to satisfie these my requests then I shall yeelde and recant and not before Crowley If I did not knowe that this Offerer is past all shame I could not meruell enough to sée that he would demaunde of the learned Protestant a proofe by good reason and drift of argument that Luther Zuinglius Illiricus Caluin the Confessionists Swinkfild and the Anabaptists should bée members all
God to giue his Church libertie to make publique profession of fayth and religion as now for the space of 29. yéeres togeather he hath doone in this realme of England such as be members of the true Catholique Church doo and haue doone by the permission and commaundement of our Prince whom God hath appointed to gouerne vs as it becommeth Catholike Christians to doo in open praier preaching and administration of Sacramentes And to the ende that all thinges may bée doon orderly and as it beseemeth we haue bishops al other necessary ministers orderly elected admitted to minister vnto vs the word and to exercise publique prayer necessarie discipline suche as the higher powers vnder whome we liue doo thinke méete to be exercised As for the vniformity of your solemne Ceremonies that had not had so long continuance for the space of fiftéene hundreth yéeres nor yet for the space of fifty yéeres For by the confession of your holy father Pope Pius quintus the difference of ceremonies vsed euen in your holy Masse was such before the tyme of your last generall Councell which began at Trident. Anno. 1545. that it was thought méete by them to take order for the reformation thereof But though it had béene as auncient as you would haue it what great matter is there in it to prooue thereby that your Church is the true Church of Christ sith it is an easie matter for any sorte of men to agrée in outward and solemne Ceremonies although the same bee neuer so superstitious vaine and foolish But here is a matter of greater waight that is the vnity of fayth that your Church hath had these 1500 yéeres last past continually I haue already prooued that your Antichristian Church hath not had continuance so long by 600. yeres almost And it shal be an easie matter to prooue that the fayth of your Church hath in the time that it hath had continuance varied very often in some poyntes of greatest wayght as you doo account of them The generall councell of Basill beléeued that theyr authority was aboue the authority of the Pope and that they might depose hym and therefore they dyd depose Eugenius that then was Pope and choose an other in his place And the same Eugenius bolding a Councell at Farrary beléeued that he had authority to excommucate the generall councell And this article was long doubted of Whether the Pope or the generall counsell should haue the supreme authoritie And about the wordes of consecration I thinke your Church is not yet agréede whether the vertue â—hat turneth the substaunce doo lye in the verbe Est or in the sillable vm And whether the substance of breade and wyne bée turned into the substaunce of the body and bloode of Christ or whether that substaunce departing and giuing place the body and blood of Christ doo occupie the place thereof vnder the qualities of bread and wine And whether the mouse that eateth the consecrated rake doo eate the bodie of Christ or no. In these high poyntes of religion and in dyuers other of lyke sorte the vnitie of your fayth hath béene and styll is sore shaken But I perceyue that which followeth in thys conclusion of thys offer that the fayth whych you speake of is that fayth or beleefe that you haue in that Church of yours which you call Catholique You neuer trouble your selfe with the waighting and examining of matters of beléefe for you confesse that you must of necessitie beléeue the Church So that your determination is to beléeue whatsoeuer that Church hath or shall determine and commaund you to beléeue although you knowe not what that Church either hath or shall determine Thus your late prosilite Frier Iohn Frauncis of Nigeon in Fraunce dyd in his letters that he wrote to his mother instruct her to beléeue But here riseth a doubte whether this Church be the general councell the colledge of Cardinalles or the Popes holines alone If it bee the generall councell what shifte would you haue made when two generall councelles were holden at one tyme and decréede contrarie the one to the other the one holden at Basill and the other at Farrarie If it be the colledge of Cardinalles which way would you haue turned your selfe when there were thrée Popes at one tyme and each Pope had his colledge of Cardinalles If it bée the Pope him selfe then tell mée vpon whome you would haue hanged your fayth when there was no Pope for the space of two yéeres togeather and when there were three Popes at one tyme and when haueing but one Pope the same was an Arrian or Saddusey or had giuen hym selfe to the Deuill that hee myght bée made Pope I leaue this to your discretion or to the discretion of some one of your sorte that shall take in hand to replye to this aunswer that I make to these your offers You saye that your Church hath in her selfe all holie functions of the spirite as workinge of miracles remission of sinnes and the true sence and interpretation of Gods worde A straunge manner of ennumeration of partes All the holie functions of the spyrite are innumerable and therefore they are commonlie sayd to bée seuen by which number béeing a perfecte number an infinite multitude is commonly signified But you set downe thrée for all The working of miracles is one of those holye functions that you speake of You meane I am sure of those miracles that haue béene and are wrought in your places of Pilgrimage and by the rotten reliques of your Sayntes whereof I haue heard great boast and some experience I haue séene in England The holy mayd of Kent with her confederates wrought manie myracles in the dayes of King Henrie the eyght as in our Chronicles is to bée séene but in the ende she was founde to bée an arrante Whore and so was the holie made of Lemster that was nothing inferiour to the other in working of myracles The holy Roode of Bostone the holie Roode of Boxley the holie Roode of Chester the holie Roode of Northamton and the holie Roode at the North doore of Paules Church with the holy Roode in Roode Lane in London were not behinde the rest in working miracles by the helpe of knaues that had the kéeping of them I might speake of the holy blood at Hailes which was sayd to bee a portion of the bloode of Christ Saint Thomas of Canterburie S. Thomas of Hereford S. William of Mawuerne S. Ioseph of Shaftesburie and holy King Henrie of Windsore King Kenelme of Cowbadge S. Hugh of Lincolne and S. Robert of Naseborowe and a number of blessed Ladies to many to bée rehearsed by name The knauerie that was practized in these places is so well knowen in England that your miracles can haue no credite amongst such English men as haue not Roomish hartes Yea and our sauiour Christ hath forewarned vs Math 24. Math 24 That in these latter dayes many false Christs and false prophets shal arise shal
Arragon and made warre against the sayd king of Arragon About the yeere of our Lord 1280. Pope Bonifacius 8. in a great glorie shewed him selfe twice First in his pontificalibus granting large pardons to the people and on the next day in the imperiall robes hauing a naked sworde carried before him And as hée sate in his maiestie hée cried with a lowde voyce saying Ecce duo gladij hic Behold héere are two swords This was about the yeere 1300. A Frier of the Order of the popish preachers did poyson Henry the seuenth Emperor by deliuering vnto him a consecrated hoste as they terme it wherein hee had put a stronge poyson which dispatched him About the yéere 1310. Pope Clement the sixt hauing excommunicated Lewes the Emperor and all the Princes and bishops that tooke parte with him sayd that now th' Empire was fallen vnto him and therefore he placed captaines in the cities of Italy This was about the yeere 1340. Pope Vrbane the sixt in hatred toward Clement the 7. whom the Frenchmen had chosen to be Pope tooke fiue Cardinalles and lapped them in one sacke and drowned them This was doone about the yéere 1380. A singular example of true charitie Yea and a singular example of obedience is to be seene in Alexander the third of whom I spake before in that hee admitting the Emperor Frederike surnamed Barbarossa to the kissing of his foote did set his foote in the Emperors neck pronouncing these woords of the Psalme 91. Super aspidem c. Vpon the Adder and Basiliske shalt thou walk and thou shalt stamp vpon the Lyon the Dragon This was done about the yeere 1170. And Celestinus the fourth when he crowned the Emperor Henry the fift sonne to the foresaid Frederike did set the Emperiall crowne vpon the head of the Emperor with his feete and did topple it of againe with one of his féete in token that as hee had powre to make an Emperor so hée had powre to depose him againe Héere M. Offerer may sée a number of examples of obedience to the higher powers of great grauitie of true charitie euen in such as haue bin the chiefe in his Catholike church if hée can shew mee but one example amongest them that haue bin of the protestants Catholike church like vnto these manifolde examples of commaunding controuling excommunicating persecuting and deposing of the higher powers and triumphing ouer them then will I recant the protestants Catholike religion and professe Poperie as this Offerer dooth and not before But now on the contrarie saith this Offerer if discord in religion licentiousnes in liuing contempt of discipline reiecting of penaunce lothsomnes of fasting lacke of zeale and deuotion disobedience to maiestrates sacryledge Apostacie breaking of vowes vnlawfull lusts and wantonnes in all life and maners doo not agree better more cleere to the protestants then to the Catholique being the plaine signes fraits of a false church then will I recant and not before As touching discord in religion the Offerer may think him selfe to bee sufficiently answered in that which I haue said to the fiftéenth Offer The rest that hée rehearseth as falâ—â— agréeing to the protestantes religion are not at all agréeable to that religion that the Protestants doo professe For wée say as S. Iames hath written Iacob 1. Iacob 1. If any man doo think him selfe to bee religious and yet refraineth not his owne tounge but suffreth his owne heart to go a stray that mans religion is vayne This is the religion that is pure and vndefiled before God and the father for a man to visite the fatherlesse widowes in their trouble to kéepe him selfe vnspotted of the world Yea wee holde as saint Paule teacheth Coloss 3. Coloss 3. that Christians being risen againe togither with Christ should seeke those thinges that are aboue where Christ is at the right hand of God and not things that are héere on earth Yea anâ— as the same S. Paule wrote to the Phillip 3. Philip 3. that Christians should haue their conuersation in heauen not vpon earth so that although our bodies must be heere for a while yet our mindes must be setled in heauen froÌ„ whence wée looke for a Sauiour euen the Lord Iesus who by that mighty working whereby he is able to subdue all thing to him selfe shall transforme alter and change our vile bodies and make them like vnto his owne glorious body Yea and wée doo holde as S. Paule taught the Romaines Cap. 6. Rom. 6 that such as are baptized are baptized to dye and to bee buried with Christ vnto sinne to be risen againe with him vnto righteousnes of life So that as naturally wée are enclined to make all our partes instruments or tooles of vnrighteousnes procéeding from one vnrighteousnes to another euen so being baptized our duetie is to endeuour to make our bodies and all our partes instruments of righteousnes proceeding from one righteousnes to another Yea and as hee writeth in the 12. Chap. we hold that our duety is to make our bodies a sacrifice to God that is as I take it the most acceptable seruice that wee can doo vnto God Rom. 12. Rom. 13. Yea and as he writeth it the 13. Chap. we hold that wee may make no prouision for the flesh to satisfie the lusts thereof But as he writeth 1. Tim. 6. 1. Tim. 6. hauing meats and drink and cloth necessarie house harbor wée be there with contented Yea we doo hold as S. Peter hath taught 1. Pet. 2. 1 Peter 2. that our dutie is to abstaine from fleshly lusts that fight against the soule and by honest and good conuersation to stop the mouthes of malicious speakers if it be possible to winne them to ioyne with vs in religion that wee may glorifie God togither Now let the indifferent reader iudge howe those foule vices that you doo charge our religion with doo agrée with this our profession It maye that there be some and I confesse that there bee a great number to many amongst vs which are not of vs but doo only beare the name of protestant Catholiques and are in déede of no religion And these are such as you speake of the vices that you name doo very well agree vnto theÌ„ And I pray you hath your popish Catholike church at any time lacked a good rouÌ„d number of such maner of men When your Pope who is the head of your church was such a one as Platina reporteth Iohn the 12. to be MonstruÌ„ hominis A monster amongst men and as Volateran saith Sceleratum hominem A man giuen ouer to all wickednes that he was slaine being taken in adultery And as the same Platina and Volateran doe say of Syluester the second that be gaue himselfe to the deuill that he might be made Pope and that he was made Pope in déede and did gouerne your church foure yeeres togither And your Pope Benedictus the ninth of
whom Volateran saith that hee was Vir plane probrosus infamis A man altogither worthy of reproches and euill reports and infamous And Platina saith that after his death hee was séene in an horrible shape and that hee said thus Iusto Dei iudicio damnatus sum quia sine lege vixi I am damned euen by the iust iudgement of God bicause I liued without law These gouerned your church one of them nine yeeres another foure yeeres and the third fifteene yeeres Now if that did saying bee true as in very déede it is alwaies founde to true Regis ad exemplum totus componitur orbis the whole world doo frame them selues after the example of the Ruler how could it otherwise bée but that in the daies wherein those men ruled your church you had great plenty of such men as they were But you will say this is not to be ascribed to the religion but to the persons that professed the religion Well then I hope you will be contented that we doo say that the falts wherewith you doo charge our religion are the falts of such persons as professing our religion be of no religion and are not to be imputed to our religion but to those irreligious persons Wee wish after and seeke for concord in true Catholike religion wée detest and abhorre licentiousnes of life Wée â—raue and beg both of God and of men the reuiuing of that discipline that God him selfe commaunded to bee exercised by his people Wée embrace true and vnfained repentance which is as Dauid teacheth Psal 34. Psalm 34. to turne away from euill and to doo the thing that is good We loue and practize true fasting such as Esay the prophet requireth in the people of God Esay 58. Esay 58. which consisteth in mercifull dealinge towards such as bee in our daunger and in mercifull relieuing of such as doo lake thinges necessarie that wee are able to help them to Wée call vpon God for encrease of zeale deuotion grounded vpon knowledge Wée obay all Magistrats in the Lord for the Lord. But how standeth your religion with obedience to magistrats when you dare assure them of euerlasting life that will enterprize to murther a prince as bisides your practizes of olde whereof wée reade in histories you did of late assure him that murthered the Prince of Orendge and such as should haue murthered our soueraigne Lady that now raigneth ouer vs Yea that Bull that Felton fixed to the bishop of Londons gate dooth make it manifest what obedience men of your minde doo vse to shew vnto Magistrats Sacriledge wée doo detest but you haue taught our Patrons Princes to rob churches and parishes of tythes and so consequently of the foode of the soule by due administration of the woord and sacraments and of the relife of the poore by liberall hospitalitie Apostacie wée leaue to men of your sort which are fallen away from the auncient true and Apostolike catholike church of Christ and doo obstinatly stand in defence of that schimne that you are fallen into notwithstanding that your falling away is made as manifest vnto all men as those things are that lie open in the cleare light of the day We are carefull to kéepe and performe that vowe that was made in our names when wée were baptized but if any of vs haue made an vnlawfull or a rash vow the performance whereof should tend to the dishonoring or displeasing of God any way wée doo earnestly repent that euer we made such a vow choosing rather to stand to the mercie of God in not performing such a rash and wicked vow then to commit greater wickednes in the perfourming thereof as Herod did in cutting of the head of Iohn Baptist Math. 14. Mat 14. As for vnlawfull lusts and wantonnes of lyfe maners wée doo flée from as it is seemely for Christians Wée haue learned to possesse our vessells that is our bodies in holines and in honor Which in déede many of vs coulde not doo without that remedie that God him selfe hath appointed which is honorable and holy Matrimony Heb. 13. Hebr 13. Such therfore amongst vs as otherwise can not haue chast mindes in chaste bodies doo choose to liue with chaste wiues in chaste marriage for we haue learned that it is better to marrie then to burne 1. Cor. 7. 1. Cor. 7. And wée know what saint Paule hath written to the Ephes concerning the dealing of some of your sort Ephes 5. Ephe 5. It is a shame euen to speake of those things that they doo in secret If the indifferent reader will not say that the vices that you haue charged our profession and religion with doo more clearely agrée to the popish Catholikes then to the protestants bee in them plaine signes and fruites of false religion then will I recant and not before The two and twenty Offer Offerer Two and twenty Let the learned proue vnto mee that their church and congregation might rightly bee called Catholike which for the space of a thousand yeeres togither was so particuler that no man coulde name any certaine place where their church was or that it might bee called holy which had for so longe time and space neyther the doctrine of Christes gospell taught in it neyther baptisme nor any other sacrament of Christ vsed to sanctifie them withall or that it could bee called one church which as soone as it grew vp shewed selfe to the world was deuided into so many and sundry sectes of Lutherans Zuinglians Iliricans Caluinists Svvenfeldians Anabaptists and such other or that it might bee called Apostolike which could neuer make an account by orderly succession and discent from any one of Christ his Apostles or any other Apostolike man or that their secret hid vnknowne congregation was euer of that maiesty or authority that it had at any one time or season the true obedyence of all christian nations or that it was euer of that maiesty or authority that it had at any one time or season the true obedyence of all christian nations or that it was euer able to assemble gather vniuersall and generall counselles of all nations and Christian people or to exercise any discipline or correction vpon offenders throughout all kingdomes and regions professing Christ or that these titles following properly applied by the scriptures and doctors to the true church of Christ could euer bee challenged by any right to their hyd and vnknowne congregation I meane these titles namely Corpus Christi the body of Christ Sponsa Christi the spouse of Christ Amica Christi the louer of Christ Vnice dilecta Christo dearely beloued of Christ Columba speciosa the beautifull Doue Domus Dei the house of God Columna veritatis the Piller of truth Ciuitas Dei the city of God Ciuitas super montem posita a city set vpon an hill Fons signatus a Spring or Fountaine surely signed and sealed Sponsa agni the spouse of
fratres per nomen domini nostri Jesu Christi vt idipsum dicatis omnes nō sint in vobis schismata sitis autem perfecti in eodem sensu in eadem sententia 1. Cor 1. I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that you say all one thinge and that there bee no schisme amongst you but be perfect in one minde and one meaning Nowe if the learned Protestant shal be able to prooue that where as about the time of threescore yeeres and aboue we were all not onely in this realme but vniuersally in al other realmes professing Christ of one church of one fayth and religion and of one vnitie therein if hee shal be able to prooue that this late Schisme whereby wee are so deuided and dispersed that some are become Lutherans some Zuinglians some Caluinists some Puritans and Annabaptists dyd proceede from vs and from the common knowen Catholique Church of Christ and not wholy from theyr priuate Church and congregations and of the deceitfull and false doctrine by them preached and taught I shall then stay no longer but yeelde and recant and not before Crowley They that be the bringers of Schismes and diuisions into the Church of Christ c may rightly be said to be false Prophettes Heretiques and Schismatiques And th'apostle Paule dooth very well and loouingly exhorte and beséech vs euen in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ to be all of one minde and that there be no Schismes amongst vs c. But now the learned Protestant must prooue that the late Schisme whereby the people of all Christian realmes are diuided into Lutherans Zuinglians Caluinistes Puritans and Anabaptists did procéede from the common knowen Catholique Church of Christ and not wholy from the Protestants congregations and from their deceitfull doctrine otherwise there is no hope that euer this Offerer will recant and yéelde Well let vs sée what may be said to this offer First as I doo vnderstand the wordes of this Offerer hee affirmeth that till it was within the space of thréescore and some odde yéeres last past there had béene no Schisme brought into the Church of Christ so that before that tyme al were of one Church of one fayth and religion and of one vnitie therein And thus he hath discharged all those olde Heretiques that troubled the Church of Christ in the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel amongst the nations from thense forth till it was within thréescore odde yéeres before the tyme wherein he made this offer None of them may bée taken for false Prophets Heretiques or Schismatiques if thys bée the meaning of this offerers wordes as I thynke it must néedes bée But how soeuer this offerer and his fellowes doo account of these men that then brought Schismes into the Church of Christ we Protestants doo déeme them to be false Prophets Heretiques and Schismatickes yea and members of antichrist and we doo by all meanes possible shunne theyr doctrine and teach all other Christians to shunne them also It may bée that this offerer meant not of any other false Prophets Heretiques or Schismatickes then such as haue troubled the Church of Christ within these thréescore and odde yéeres last past and therefore hee beginneth with Luther Zuinglius c. But if that were his meaning then I must tell him that he and his fellowes the antichristian catholiques are the false Prophets Heretiques and Schismatiques that haue troubled the Catholique Church of Christ all this while many hundrethes of yéeres before euen euer since the dayes of Phocas the Emperour and the dayes of Boniface the thyrd theyr first Apostatate Bishop of Roome As for Luther Zuinglius and Caluine they dyd but departe from the antichristian Schismaticall Church wherin then had béene fostered and ioyned themselues to the true catholique Church of Christ euen as the Apostle Paule leauing the Hipocriticall profession of a Pharisey wherin he had béene brought vp euen at the féete of Gamaliell the good Pharisey ioyned himselfe to the Church and religion of Christ which was not a forsaking of the lawe but a cleauing vnto him that is the perfection of the Lawe Luther Zuinglius and Caluine dyd not take vpon them to be authors of any new religions but they embraced and laboured to maintayne that olde religion that had béene planted by the Apostles and professed by theyr immediate successors And as they could they dyd endeuour to purge it of al such filth as you M. Offerer and your predissessors had begrimed it with If in this busines they dyd not so well in all poyntes as they wished yet theyr meaning béeing good they are to bée helde excused Though they dyd nowe and then buylde timber strawe and stubble yet so long as they did laye no new foundation but dyd set all theyr building vppon the rocke Christ which is the right foundation and the onely foundation for Christians to build vpon they shal be saued as S. Paule hath assured vs. 1 Cor 3. 1 Cor 3. We Protestant Catholiques doo estéeme of these men none otherwise then as of faithfull labourers in the Lords haruest and carefull followers of Christ Iesus If they did in any poynt goe astray as béeing men they might and vndoubtedly dyd our profession is not to followe them Their profession was to followe Christ and so is ours The learned Protestant therefore may conclude that not the knowē catholique Church of Christ but the knowen antichristian Church of Roome whereof this Offerer and his fellowes are members haue by theyr doctrine brought into the Church of Christ Schisme Diuision and seperation of one member from another and of the whole misticall body from the true heade Iesus Christ For you enforce all such as wyll enioy any outwarde peace in this lyfe to submit themselues to the state of the papasie as to theyr vniuersall heade here vpon earth directly contrarie to the commaundement of Christ Math 23. Math 23 Sée that you do not name any man your common father vpon earth for one is your father which is in heauen Neither be ye called masters for Christ only is your maister If we will enioy peace amōgst you we must learne to say thus Our most holy father the Popes holines is heade of the vniuersall Church of Christ And we must acknowledge that his colledge of Cardinalles and the Prelates that he calleth togeather in hys generall councelles binding them by an oath to maintaine the estate of your antichristian Church are our masters or teachers for suche masters our sauiour Christ spake of at that tyme and what so euer they shall teach that must wée beléeue although we doo knowe and sée that they doo teach directly contrarie to that which is taught by the holy ghost in the Scriptures The peace therefore the concorde and the vnitie that you doo maintaine is not in verity and trueth but in impietie and false religion By your Schisme wherein you are growen excéeding