their Faith and forbearing all outward violence he sought by all policy to hinder their increase wherein he prevailed much more for that some through covetousness others through ambition suffered themselves to be perswaded to that whereunto they could not be forced by any violence or threats I will not compare here this new kind of Doctrine which is now in question with the Pagan Religion for it is not my intention to interpose my censure but I will onely conclude that in that which consisteth in the perswasion of the heart corporal violence prevaileth no more then the vapour of wind that blows to hinder the heat of the fire And daily experience hath taught us The means then to divert them from their opinions is to perswade them that their faith and belief is not conformable to the word of God To effect the which there is no other means then to give them free audience to the end that they may propound their reasons and motives with all liberty and that they be confuted of error and herefie by the Word of God If they remain obstinate yet when this disputation and instruction shall be performed in the eye of the World those that are weak shall by this means be perswaded not to follow their errors for as for the obstinate even as instruction would avail them little or nothing so much less would fire or death turn them from their resolved opinions But on the other side those which behold others to die with such constancy take a delight to seek the opinions and they which by this means came to fall in the like inconveniences should be wholy preserved when they should hear them vanquished by the word of God and by reasons which they cannot contradict If then Prelats and Bishops trust in the bounty of their cause as with all reason they ought There is not in the world a better means to attain unto the Kings intention and to prevent the multiplying of Sects then to confer together publickly that all the world may know that the others do falsly bragg that they have the word of God on their side for it is most certain that when truth is compared with falshood she must of necessity shew her beauty and obtaine the Victory discovering to the eye of all men what is false and counterfeit and by this means a great good shall rise for that they which now know not what to follow in so great a diversity of opinions may settle a firm judgment of the Truth after that they have heard the grounds of either side so as in conference all confusion and disorder all noise and rayling be laid aside As wee have seene in the disputations and conferences which Saint Paul hath made aswell with the Jews as against the Pagans then presently those which sought the truth knew that he had reason and that the other were in errour so in the Councels of Nicene the Arrians were admitted to propound their reasons and grounds with all liberty and being convicted by the word of God of error and heresie were forced for a time to desist from their enterprise but presently after when they presecuted them they had many disciples some moved by pittie some by their false perswasions the which was the cause of great mischiefs and inconveniences in the Church Yea in our time we have seene in all places where the Anabaptists have beene persecuted they have increased infinitely And contrariwise where they have been heard in publique conference and disputation and convicted of errour and heresie by the word of God they have had no more tredit in the world And therefore Mabomet hath so carefully forbidden that they should never dispute upon the points of Religion brought in by him knowing well that the truth being once confronted against his lyes his doctrine of necessity must goe to smoake It s a true marke and a badge of truth that it desires to be known made manifest and debated being like unto the Palm tree the more it is deprest and charged the higher and steighter it growes For this reason the ancients did appoint to hold free and generall Councels every yeare although by the corruption of time many abuses have beene brought in by the ambition and covetousnesse of those that should give their Voyces So it is that the Hereticks and Sectaries feare nothing in the World more then to be made manifest be it by a free and general councel or in any other place where as matters may be freely debated on either side the which we see at this day apparently in the Anabaptists who fly all disputations more then death If then those which desire to root out this new Religion which multiplies so fast are assured of the bounty and truth of their cause and of the falshood of their Adversaries There is no fitter means then to come publickly to field and to give their adversaries free audience and leave to dispute without doubt if they maintaine herefies there shall neede neither fire nor gibbets to hinder the course of their doctrine for that the more manifest it is the more it will decay It will be to no purpose to say that they have been often heard and confuted for admit it were so yet a great multitude of people which are inclined thereunto deserve so much paine as to bee instructed in hearing and examining their reasons but when you have said all they were never heard with patience for when as Luther began to preach this doctrine in Germany it was presently condemned by the Pope and persecuted by all the Kings and Princes of Christendome he was once called to be heard but it was to see if hee would recant or maintaine his writings and his doctrine And he on the other side protested nothing more then the desire hee had to bee better taught and instructed by the holy Scripture The like proceeding was held against Iohannes Husse at the councel of Constance who was never heard in his own defence but assoon as he was arrived there they laid before him certain Articles drawn by some adversary of his out of his books asking him if he would maintain those Articles which were reproved and condemned by the holy Church and thereupon they gave sentence that he was an heretick and damned the which the world sees to be against all right and reason To say that those were condemned by other Councels before is nothing to the purpose for if it be so as they say it will be the more easie to overthrow them now for that the ancients have never condemned any doctrine but that which they held contrary to the word of God the which they have alledged to that effect I say to confute errours and heresies So as now the way shall be traced and they shall need only to quote the same scriptures to confute these for that the word of God remaineth eternally and the scripture hath now as much force and vertue to confute heresies as ever But to
confess that there are fingular men among them in all sort of sciences besides that the life of many of them is it reprehensible If then there were not so great a number as there is yet they should have respect not to ruine and chase away those whom God hath endued with such excellent graces and deprive the King and his Countries of so great a good in chafing away or murthering them which might have served either for Counsel Learning or some other way seing it is ordinarily found that they desire to yeild all obedience and duty unto the King and to serve him with body and goods so as they would leave them the exercise of their Religion free To conclude then If his Majesty will be pleased to grant this liberty he should not onely prevent troubles and inconveniences which have hapned in France and else-where through this occasion but also it should be a means by the which his subjects should be induced every one to imploy himself in his vocation to the service of his Majesty and the advancement of the Common-weal seing that in the end they should be forced to come unto it were it after his decease as in other Countries where the like accidents have hapned It remains now to consider the inconveniences that may arise the which I find to be two principal The first that if the exercise of their Religion were allowed them they might multiply in such sort as the ancient Religion would decay and come to nothing the which the King would not endure by any means The other is They hold commonly that in one Country there cannot be two divers Religions without great trouble and disorder As for the first they must understand that all Religions are either grounded upon the authority of God or the authority of men For a Religion may be grounded upon the authority of men when having regard unto that which our Ancestors have done and followed or to that which our King commands or to that which some great personage doth enjoyn us we ground our Religion upon those respects without any firm reason or feeling in our hearts that we do well or ill as the Turks Pagans and Idolaters have alwaies done yea and the greatest part of the world do at this day changing their Religion and manner of serving God in what sort and as often as it shall please the King or those to whom they shall defer this credit but for that those Religions proceed not from a Religious heart fearing God but from the respect and reverence of men it is easie to hinder the course and to plant in other by humane means as by armes and violence so as it was no difficult thing for the Romanes to bring their Gods and Religions into Greece and other Countries of their conquests the which were grounded but upon the authority of their Princes and Kings But if the Religion hath its foundation upon the authority and word of God upon the testimony of their Consciences be it with reason or otherwise force or outward violence cannot prevail as we have shewed and there is no means to hinder the course and progresse thereof but in shewing the foundations ill laid If then the King will maintain the old Religion and stop the course of the new it is necessary that he give them leave to be heard to the end that they may be confuted and that all the world knowing wherein the abuse doth consist may fly their acquaintance If it be heresie they sow ye cannot but stop the course in suffering them to publish their doctrine so that their errors be laid open to the people by the truth of the word of God else the more you seek to suppress it the more it will encrease But contrariwise if happily their doctrine be conformable to the word of God it is not to be presumed that his Majesty would oppress it Wherefore that inconvenience alledged is of no consequence The second point alledged seems to be of great moment For they say commonly that for to entertain the publike quiet we must have but one Law one Faith and one King a thing without doubt which were much to be desired for it would us liken to that golden age But seing that Religion and faith is a meer gift of God engraven in the heart of man over the which none can command but God onely It were great indiscretion to think it possible to reduce all the Inhabitants of one Country to one Faith by force or corporal violence It is true that they say that as in a Family the Father ought to foresee that all those of his house worship but one onely God and be of one Religion so the King should provide that in his Realm there should be but one Faith and one Law the which were wonderful good and healthful but it is not possible to attain unto it if it be not among those people whose Religion is grounded upon the Kings simple Authority the which is no true Religion but a meer hypocrisie and counterfeting whereunto they may haply be drawn which have no fear of God As it was seen among the Romans who received as many new Gods as their Emperors commanded them but this will never take place among them which have any inward feeling grounded upon any reason be it upon the word of God or of their own Conscience In which case ye are so far from reducing a whole Nation to one Religion as you can hardly reclaim one Family the which was manifest among the Jews where there were three famous Sects more contrary the one unto the other then those of the new Religion unto them that maintain themselves under the ancient obedience of the Pope But which is much more from the beginning of the world unto this day it was never seene that all were of one law and one faith no not according to the exteriour exercise For before the comming of Christ the Kings of Egypt Persia and Babylon were forced to leave the Jews in their Countrey and to allow them the free exercise of their Religion the which they held abhominable And after his comming the Romane Emperours have also suffered it as Antonius Pius and Mark Antonie nor that they were of one accord with them for they had the name of a Christian in horror but for that they found they were not seditious nor disturbers of the publique quiet and so of many other Emperours who have suffered them and forbidden that no injury should bee done them although they were of a meere contrary opinion True it is that some one may say That all these Examples serve but to advance the Christian faith which the King intends to maintaine in rooting out the new Religion Yet it is most manifest It is no new thing to endure two Religions in one Countrey yea and that all wise Kings and Princes have done according to the necessities of the time for although the Religion of those Emperours were bad
Prayer Booke yet Papists in both these Countries are tollerated and protected Let Scotland beware whiles they contend for Conformity they again set not up our English Dagon but passing by formalities let both Kingdomes secure their owne Peace by yeelding to publick liberty and exercise of Religion without making search of their friends Consciences which no force can master but exulcerate rather and make worse as Courteous Reader thou maiest well discover by this ensuing discourse of Mr Baldwin delivered to the King of Spaines own hand which I have published for thine and my Countries peace and how we ought to behave our selves towards men of different Judgements and Religions For a Conclusion I give thee an exemplary act of Justice done by a Popish Earle upon a covetous and corrupt minister of Justice If our Parliament thereby would bee stirred up so to punish their Delinquent Committee men and wicked Judges injustice and oppression would stand afar off Justice depresse those factions which other wise will break this Nation whose welfare as my owne I desire John Musgrave A DISCOVRSE OF Francis Bavvdvvine Shewing the means to prevent the troubles of a Kingdom and to root out Sects and Heresies Delivered at a Conference to the King of SPAYNE Anno MDLXV ALL men which live under one King are bound to seek the preservation of the publick good and quiet History of the Netherlands written Anno 1609 in folio 356. and the entertainment of the Kings greatness and prosperity who is the Head of the Body whereof we are members I have thought that I am not to be taxed of arrogancie if according to the small Talent which I have received from the Lord I endeavour to discourse briefly of the means that might be held in these times in the which there is such great diversity of opinions To prevent all troubles and tumults that many arise as we have learned by the example of our Neighbours and withal satisfie as much as is possible the will and pleasure of the King our Lord whom by Gods law and commandment weare bound to obey and serve to the uttermost of our powers seing then as well here as in France England Scotland and Germany although there be some small difference a great part of the people are moved by exhortation and doctrine of those which they call Gospellers for that as they say they make profession to receive nothing but what is expresly contained in the Doctrine of the Gospel and of the Bible rejecting the ancient and accustomed manner of serving God as to go to masse to confess to receive the Sacrament fast for certain daies go on pilgrimages and other like exercises to joyn themselves to a new Doctrine and Religion which they call Reformed The question is how according to the Kings will and pleasure the people may be maintained in the ancient Faith without seeking any innovation and if happily the means seems somwhat difficult or rather impossible how we may prevent and shun many inconveniences which may arise or grow by the diversity that is among the Inhabitants of the Country First We must consider when any one speaketh of a Religion or Law it is to be understood that he speaketh of the Faith and apprehension which men have conceived and imprinted in their hearts and mindes touching God and his service and also touching the doctrine of their salvation Or else they comprehend not by this word Religion but the exercise and outward profession by the which we shew outwardly what we believe inwardly or at least what we should believe in our hearts As for the first It is most certain that they which follow the new Religion have a constant perswasion and impression in their hearts that what they do and believe is conformable to the word and commandment of God and they must above all things obey their Creator and rather endure death and all the torments of the world then willingly to go against his Word and commandments Seing then this maxime is graven in the hearts of men It is more then reason that God our Creator prescribe us what law he please and we are bound to obey him without any contradiction or exception whatsoever which maxime is not possible to root out of their hearts neither were there any reason to attempt it There must then some other means be sought to divert them from their faith Many have thought it best to proceed by force and terror by fire flames and all sorts of torments to the end that those which have not yet embraced this faith might by this means be terrified to remain in their ancient manner of doing but doubtless they are much abused as reason and daily experience doth teach for how is it possible to force and command the Conscience and minde by corporal violence How can any one perswade me that that man hath a bad faith whom I see die constantly and joyfully although I know not the ground of the one not the other Even as it is impossible for all the Monarchs of the world to keep the fire from exercising his heat when it encounters an object fit to burn In like sort it is as impossible for all men how mighty soever to restrain and hinder the spirit of man from discoursing and judging as he pleaseth and not to apply himself to that which he findeth best to agree with his natural impression the experience whereof is daily seen For what hath it availed to have put to death so many poor souls for the faith whereto have served the fires gibbets scaffolds tortures and torments which they have used in France in England yea and in these Countries Without doubt neither the power nor authority of men nor the sharpness of all the torments in the world avail any thing in this point The Kings of Aegypt were mighty but they could never command the consciences of the children of Israel The Romane Emperors held almost all the world in subjection who neither spared fire nor flames crosses nor gibbets cords nor tortures nor any kind of torments that could be devised or invented to root out the Christian faith and to terrifie their subjects to divert them and to retain them in their ancient belief and Pagan Religion and yet they prevailed nothing in their designes but contrariwise did much hinder their intents So that the Christians were wont to use a common proverb amongst them That the blood of their Martyrs was the seed of their Churches And indeed Iulian the apostate Emperor a malicious and subtle man seing that to root out the Christian Religion all his Predecessors had prevailed nothing but contrariwise that it was much augmented by means of the persecutions and that those which died for their faith took it for a glory and honour from that time forward he would no more persecute them neither by fire nor sword nor by any corporal violence although they hated him deadly but sought by gentleness and perswasions to draw them from
condemne them by the very name and authority of some Councels without alledging the scriptures and reasons of the said Councels were out of reason for they submit themselves to prove that the Councels by the which their doctrine hath beene condemned were but petty Councels assembled and allowed by the tyranny of some who alone have decreed what they pleased against the authority of the scriptures without hearing or admitting of their adverse parties And doubtlesse in the ancient primative Church there were many Bishops which have rejected some Councels as suspect and not lawfull nor grounded upon the authority of the word of God but upon the authoritie of men as we read of Maximus Bishop of Ierusalem and of St Hillary Bishop of Poictiers yea and of St Athanasias Chrisestonie and Photinus so it is not without reason if many ages after them there have been Councels suspected to these men But as for the most Ancient and Received on either side they are content to allow of them so far forth as they prove their sayings by the word of God There resteth then nothing but that their reasons may be heard that the truth may be known and their heresies and errours avoided seeing there is no other means to procure a publick peace and to draw all the subjects to one Religion that if their adversaries as if there were no controversie in this point challenge the name of the Church and without hearing their reasons examined by the scriptures will that all that they shall ordaine or decree shall bee infallibly kept as an ordinance of the Church and so of God as they have done in the last Councel of Trent where the Pope was head and the adverse party not called but to be condemned and judged according to the ordinance of the Church that is to say of the Pope and Prelates or els to recant and then to bee receive into favour Without doubt there will be never any means to draw them from their beliefe seeing this Maxime will alwayes remaine graven in their hearts that they must in all things follow the word of God which alone hath authority to judge all Controversies and to define which is the true and the false Church which Maxime can never be wrested away by the authority of any man much lesse that the Pope and Prelats have any such Credit not by fire nor sword so as if their adversaries would not give them free audience as it is said but use violence they should but impaire their own Cause and make theirs better and more favourable whom they seek to root out Seeing then it is a Maxime or point resolved upon among all men of Judgement that touching the Faith and inward Beliefe no Corporall violence can command and that men must be confuted of errour in their Consciences we must examine the second point which wee have propounded which is Whether it were not possible to hinder the outward exercise of their Religion forbidding them to assemble preach teach nor to make any outward profession of that which they beleeve in heart And first In it were feasible whether it were fit and convenient to do it No religion whatsoever can subsist if it hath not some exterior exercises or ceremonies by the which it may be entertained whereupon the Emperor Gratian was wont to say that it was necessary the people should be maintained in some outward discipline of some Religion whatsoever it were good or bad For as man by nature is enclined to reject the yoke of God it is necessary he should be kept in awe and discipline else hee would bee like an untamed horse rejecting the fear of God and man Being then impossible to root out the Faith which they have in their hearts it were not convenient although it were possible to hinder their exteriour discipline and exercises by the which the people are maintained in their Religion and in the feare of God and of the Magistrate unless whereas in their Assemblies they are taught to be good men and to fear God and honour the King and his officers they will make them wicked Atheists Libertines and seditious perturbers of all good order and policy as we see plainly by daily experience For we see a number which have cast off the yoke of the Romish Church mocking at the Masse and Priests yet fear to lose their goods or honours refuse to apply themselves to discipline and exercise of any other Religion have become very Atheists without faith or law Yet there are no small number of villanous Libertines which make fects of themselves teaching that we must not serve God outwardly with any exterior form or discipline but onely in spirit and under this pretext they give themselves to all villany and abhomination to murthers rapes incests and adulteries holding that the outward things serve to no end so as the heart be cleer as they perswade themselves Yea some have been so audacious as to vaunt themselves to be Christ himself Others the Spirit of God And others Charity To conclude they are prophane people and contemners of God and the Magistrate maintaining that there ought not to be any sword or superiority used among men but that the spirit should rule govern and guide the heart of man as it pleaseth The which groweth through no other occasion but seing the great abuses which have reigned and do still reign in the Church and not being suffered on the other side to joyn themselves to any discipline and exercise of Religion they are grown to that pass as to think that dissimulation is not bad so as the heart be good and so mocking at Religion whereof they make a shew they must needs fall into wicked Atheism And there are none in the world more seditious and greater disturbers of all good order then these people as hath been seen in the Anabaptists of Munster and their like For the rooting out of which there were no better means whoso would consider all things without passion then to suffer them yea to command them expresly that all them which make profession of the Religion which they call Reformed should assemble in view of all the world and keep good discipline fit for the obedience which they owe unto God and the Magistrate correcting vices and excess for although there were no other good yet by this means they should get thus much which is of great importance for the preservation of the publick quiet That whereas we daily see spring up new and abhominable sects full of sedition and mutinies yea and of horrible blasphemies against the Majesty of God when as there should be but two publick kinds of profession in the view of all the world either of them performing the obedience which they owe unto God and the King when as any new one should spring up it would be easie to suppress it by the word of God But forasmuch as this seemeth strange to some to give Hereticks leave to sow their heresies let us
yet they held it good and holy as the King holds his and it was the Religion which they received from their Ancestors above three thousand years past But wee finde also that Christian Emperours have endured alse Religions as it appears by the example of Theodosius Horatius and Arcadius who gave Temples to the Arrians and Novaâ—â—â—ns sometime within and sometime without the City as the necessity of the time and place required In the Ecclesiasticall History It is reported for a remarkable thing that Valentianus the Emperour was Orthodox and a good Christian yet he suffered the Arrians though he favoured them not so much as the others Vallens his Colleague or Companion in the Empire was an Arrian and would by no means suffer the Christians in his Government but did persecute them in all sorts whereby we may easily gather that in all well-governed common weales to avoid sedition and tumults it is sometimes necessary to grant Temples unto Hereticks not to the intent they should disperse their Heresies more but that the people hearing â—he truth confronted with falshood might without mutinies or tumults apply themselves quietly unto the true and right Religion But our Lord and Saviour saith that he came to bring war and not peace into the world so as in one house there shall bee dissentiou betwixt the Father and the Son the Brother and the brother How can we then maintain the Religion of Jesus Christ if they will reduce all the world to one faith and to one Law seeing that for the ordering thereof hee doth not command the faithfull to kill the rest but contrary wise he saith that the Apostles and faithfull should bee betrayed excommunicated and put to death for their faith and Religion and therefore he will have them win the field through patience and the vertue of his word So as I cannot wonder sufficiently at the impudency of these men who making a shew to be well read in all ancient Histories do maintain that there were never two different Religions in one Common weale for what will they say or answer to the diversity already alleadged betwixt the Pharisees Sadduces and â—â—â—sses without doubt they shall never finde that by reason of these Sects there was any great difficulty in the Government nor that Jesus Christ nor his Apostles did ever command to burne them for their Law What shall we say of the diversity of Religions that were among the heathen whereof one did not know anothers Gods No not the Names And some also maintained publiquely that God did not care for humane things And yet wee finde not that the Government of the Romanes was troubled for this cause But who doth not see at this day under the great Turk a great diversity of Religions so as among the Christians alone there are fifteen or twenty Sects and sundry Religions besides the Jewes Persians and Mahumatists all subjects to his Empire the which are more contrary the one to the other for matter of Religion then water is contrary unto fire Without doubt if these diversities were the true cause of seditions and tumults It were not possible that the Turks power should grow so great It is then a great ignorance to think that subjects cannot be maintained in quiet when they are of divers Religions for who so will look neerly to the spring and beginnings of tumults and seditions he shall find that they proceed not so much from the diversity of Religions as through private passions as through covetousness ambition revenge hatred and such like from the which small quarrels may grow and when the Magistrate prevents it not in time then by little and little they inflame and are cause of tumults and publike seditions witness the troubles and seditions in Italy betwixt the Guelphs and Gibellines the which continued four hundred years and was the cause of infinite murthers rapes wars and all sorts of violence and yet there was no difference in the Religion but all did grow for that the Magistrate did feed the private passions of their Subjects instead of suppressing them by Justice And as for controversies touching Religion it is not two hundred years since that the controversies betwixt the Franciscans and the Iacobines for the Conception of the Virgin Mary had caused great troubles throughout all Christendom Not that the controversie was of any great importance but through the negligence of the Magistrate who nourished these factions and became partisans Seing then it appeareth that whereas good order hath been setled people of divers sects and Religions have been quietly governed without any sedition or tumult and contrariwise whereas no order was not onely diversity of Religion but even small quarrels have bred horrible seditions and tumults any man of Judgement may gather thereby that seditions and tumults take not their increase from the importance of the quarrel whereupon they are grounded but rather through the want of good order for that the Magistrates neglect to punish them that entertain them or else themselves maintain one party the which is confirmed by many ancient and modern examples And who so will examine strictly the last troubles of France shall find that the greatest part have hapned for that some mighty men or Governours themselves having no regard to the publick good nor to the ordinances of the States have at their own pleasures plaid the Kings and insulted of their own authorities over them of the Religion I think no man is so ignorant but knows that the murther committed at Vassey by the Duke of Guise against the laws of the King and State hath been the true and onely cause of the Civil Wars which followed to the ruine of the whole Realm for whilest the Kings proceeded by their authority there was no newes of any sedition how grievous soever the persecution were but when as Governours of their owne authorities offered violence to those of the Religion presently all these tumults grew the which may serve us for a good example whereby we may learn to avoid the like inconveniences and take some good course for the benefit of the King and of all his good subject which seek onely to obey him It is then easie to resolve that good order would be setled if liberty should be granted to them of the Religion to assemble and exercise their discipline restraining and bridling them with such laws as shall be thought good and that the Kings Magistrates and Officers be careful to execute his Majesties intention foreseeing above all things that the people usurp not the autority of the sword under colour of the factions of great men so as above all things there must be a prevention that all violence be forborn on either side and that those which proceed by any other unlawful means as by taxing and slandring shall be well punished which doubtless will be a most assured means and the subjects shall live in good unity and concord together and will carry a perfect obedience unto his