Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	faith_n	true_a	truth_n	4,594	5	5.5207	4	false

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A05212	A disputation of the Church wherein the old religion is maintained. V.M.C.F.E.	Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640?; F. E., fl. 1629.	1629 (1629)	STC 15348; ESTC S100251	235,937	466

the most part were spotted with doctrines of freewill merits inuocation of Saincts c. Cal. Inst l. 3. c. 5. Â§. 10. Caluin It was a custome a thousand and three hundred yeares agoe to pray for the deade veteres omnes c. 4. Â§. 38. but all of that tyme I confesse were caried away into errour Those things which occurre here and there about satisfaction in the writings of those of ould tymes moue me little I see indeede some of them I will speake plainlie allmost all whose books are extant haue either slipt in this point or spoken to rigourouslie and to harshlie Whitt CoÌ„t 2. q. 5. c. 7. Whittaker wee confesse that some Papisticall errours are auncient and are held and defended by the Fathers this wee do freelie and openlie professe It is true which Caluine Ibid. and the Centurists haue written that the Auncient Church did erre in many things as touching Limbus freewill merite of works c. Ex Patrum erroribus vester ille Pontificiae Religionis cento consutus est id l. 6. con Dur. s 7. Mart. de Vot col 1559. Dud. ap Bez. ep 1. Collat. R. Chal. l. 2. c. 22. The Popish Religion is patched out of the Fathers errours Peeter Martyr As longe as wee stand to the Councells and Fathers wee shall remaine allwayes in the same errours Duditius If that be the truth which the Fathers haue professed with mutuall consent it is alltogether on the Papists side Stay here is enough for my purpose if any man will haue more let him goe to the Conference of my L. of Chalcedon and reade it there 24. Before I make my argument I will note here an effect of this guiltie coÌ„science of Protestancie which effect is to decline the way of tryall by the Fathers to labour to persuade meÌ„ their iudgment is vnsecure Iew. Ap. part 4. p. 117. and in fine to coÌ„temne them Hence Iewell in his Apologie hath said that the way of finding the truth by God speaking in the Church and Councells is very vncertaine dangerous and and in a manner franticke Rainold in his conference would haue you beleeue that if the Fathers not onelie one or two but All Rainold Conf. c. â— diu 1. held a point now questioned and not held it onelie but wrote it nor onelie wrote it but allso taught it not darklie but plainlie not seldome but commonlie not for a short season but coÌ„tinuallie This consent of theirs if any such be fouÌ„d were vnsecure Thus bouldly he prepares himselfe to encouÌ„ter theÌ„ all this reckoning he makes of their Antiquitie their SaÌ„ctitie their Spirit their consent But will you see how Luther in his Cupps tramples on them Lut. Coll. meÌ„sal c. de Pat Eccl. In the writings of Hierome there is not a word of true faith and sound Religion Of Chrysostome I make no accompt Basil is of no worth he is whollie a Monke I way him not of a haire Patrum authoritas susque de que facieÌ„da est de ser arbit c. 2. fol. 433. Cyprian is a weake Deuine c. And in generall The authoritie of the Fathers is not to be cared for Let vs now to the last argument which I make thus 25. If the Fathers of the first six hundred yeares haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted Arg. 3 yours so cleerly that your best Schollers and our greatest aduersaries in this quarrell of Religion haue though vnwillinglie yet by force of euideÌ„ce directlie coÌ„fessed it then haue you not yet made it cleere that the Church in those tymes did beleeue as you doe and was of the Religion now currant amongst you But the Fathers of those tymes haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted yours so cleerelie that your best Schollers being allso our greatest aduersaries haue directlie confest it as is declared particularlie and vnansweareablie in the Protestants Apologie in the points of the reall Presence Transubstantiation Sacrifice of the Masse Inuocation of Saincts Prot. Ap. tract 1. Sec. 3. prayer for the deade Sainct Peeters Primacie Confession Satisfaction Absolution from sinnes by the Priest Merit Iustification by good works Images Vowes Reliques Ceremonies vnwritten Traditions c. Therefore you haue not yet made it cleere that the auncient Church did beleeue as you doe aÌ„d was of the Religion now currant among you * Do not ruÌ„ne away cowardly from this argument and busie your self heere in expouÌ„ding or obiectiÌ„g Fathers as your appealants impertineÌ„tly haue donne for this is but to daunce on a round as Mr. Brerely in his aduertisments tould Morton But consider attentiuely what is heere obiected and answere it directly thorough out point by point The thing vrged is the confession of your owne Deuines What do you say to this Confession I do not aske in this place how you do Glosse the Fathers or what is your opinioÌ„ No. But I demand what you say to the ConfessioÌ„ of your fellowes aÌ„d how you do answere the argumeÌ„t heere drawne from the said Confession I sawe MortoÌ„s Booke once and when I lookt next into the Prot. Apol. I found Mr. Brereleys discourse to be so full and so far to ouerreach MortoÌ„s answere that it was argument and replie both in one and still will be So that indeed you are so farre froÌ„ hauing the better in that part of the question which your answeare doth suppose that your side is infinitely preiudiced and vnpossible that you should euer come to equall termes much more vnpossible is it that you should euer in the consistorie of Reason and Equitie gaine the cause Why then do you perswade vs to followe you before you make it cleere or credible to learned men that you goe right that you goe the same way which the primitiue Church did goe their Posterity which did immediatly follow them tell vs that they went our way not yours the same all Christian Churches euer since for nine hundred years do witnesse the same your owne doctors do confesse and why then must not wee follow there is no right way but one no faith true but one no Catholique Church but one And now I resume the reason often vrged heretofore which the further it goes the more strength it gettes and thus I argue That Religion which neuer had the communion of the Christian world is not Catholique or vniuersall but the Religion now currant in England neuer had the communion of the Christian world for since Luther it was neuer the ReligioÌ„ of the Christian world nor in the tyme of the primitiue Church nor in the later nine hundred yeers therefore it is not Catholique THE FOVRTH CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by pretense of Scripture 26. THe last shift wherevnto in fine you betake your selfe is to leaue Antiquitie aÌ„d to be tryed by the word or Scripture onely And here too you are so nice that you will admit a part onely of Scripture and scarce knowe what your owne selues But of this hereafter

Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.

of the tyme they liued in produce a Catalogue a Continuall Catalogue of such meÌ„ as agreed in doctrine with you such as held the religion now currant in England who were they whence were they where were they hould vp your head man open your eies and looke the question in the face THE THIRD CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen to the demaund by recourse vnto Antiquitie 15. HAd your religion bene such that you could haue giuen accoÌ„pt and euidence of her continuall existence in the world there would yet remaine a greater taske behinde which were to prooue the generall communion it had with Nations and that it was and is Catholique in that respect that it did and doth consent with Antiquitie with the Apostles doctrine and with the Scripture for this must be prooued and exactly too before wee receaue it See the Protest Apol. and the Prud. Ballance and leaue that which hath bene generallie professed in England well neare a thousand yeares together and was all that space the knowne religioÌ„ of the ChristiaÌ„ world The true religion is such as I haue said and therfore if you will haue vs praie with you first showe that your Church is thus ample thus Catholique thus grounded and ours not for vntill you prooue this which will neuer be you may not hope that wee will come out of our Church into yours To proceed therfore I demaund euidence that your religion that I saie which in England is now curraÌ„t hath bene generallie in the coÌ„munion of the Christian world and I demaund such euidence as may commaund a wise maÌ„ to beleeue it Your answeare to this in effect is that in the first six hundred years it was so though you will not be tied to giue accoÌ„pt of it afterwardes By which euasion I doe gather that you apprehend the former argumeÌ„t as a ghost haunting and affrighting you seeing that for feare of meeting it againe you haue stepped ouer a thousand yeares together to take sanctuarie among the Fathers in their Church I was about to saie you were ill aduised to adueÌ„ture yourselfe thether where IouiniaÌ„s NouatiaÌ„s Donatistes and other your progenitors were coÌ„demned and accursed but coÌ„sidering your case better I see that feare would not let you aduise at all but cast you no matter whether so it were farre ynough out of my waie 16. Now therfore I follow thether but first obserue how you dare not auouch and in effecte do deny that the religion you maintaine was openlie professed receaued publicklie for nine hundred yeares before Luther which is but could encouragement for men to come to or to staie with you who pretending to giue accompt of a continuall succession and euer visible Catholique Church doe come so short of the thinge expected that you can show none in all the world for nine huÌ„dred yeares together and this which you haue said being wrested out of you vppon the racke aÌ„d much against your will because infinitelie preiudiciall to your cause I take for an effect of the former argument which you haue not ben able to answeare yet nor euer will be The like issue it hath oft had before for your writers aÌ„d best learned men hauing the space of a hundred yeares together bene vrged and importuned with this question haue laboriouslie searched all recordes turned ouer and ouer all authors examined all writinges with that industrie men are to suppose which a cause required wheruppon eternitie doth depende and yet after infinite inquisition cannot finde such a Church in former tyme as yours is and herevpon haue confessed that the Christian world was of our Religion before Luther not of yours imagining hereby a generall Apostasie froÌ„ the faith to haue ouerrunne the whole world Cal. praef Instit Hence Caluin in his Institutions saith that in the ages past there was no face of a true Church and that the true ReligioÌ„ was drowned aÌ„d ouerthrowne for many ages Whittaker saith no religion but the papisticall had place in the Church Whittak cont Dur. p. 274. and wee knowe saith he as plainlie that the Church hath perisshed as thou knowest a man to be dead The Popes tyranny saith Luther hath extinguisshed the faith many ages Luth. Capt Babil c. de Bapt. Perk. Expos Creed p. 400. Simon Voyon Ep ad lect Hutter de sacrif mis p. 377. Before the dayes of Luther saith Perkins for the space of many huÌ„dred yeares an vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the world When Boniface was installed saith an other the whole world was ouerwhelmed in the dregges of AntichristiaÌ„ filthines with superstitioÌ„s and traditioÌ„s of the Pope another I graunt willinglie that the papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especiallie these last thousaÌ„d yeares another Hospin Hist Sacram l. 2. p. 157. in the tyme of Gregorie the great all kinde of superstitioÌ„ aÌ„d Idolatrie hath as a sea ouerflowed all the Christian world no man resisting Another the Papisticall aÌ„d Antichristian Raigne began about the yeere 316. after Christ raigning vniuersallie aÌ„d without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260. yeares Napp on the Reuel p. 68. the Pope and his clergie during all that tyme possessing the outward visible Church of the ChristiaÌ„s another For certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church Seb. Franc. Ep de abrog stat Eccl. together with the faith and sacrameÌ„ts vanished a way presentlie after the Apostles departure and for these 1400. yeares the Church hath bene no where externall and visible another the true Church decaied immediatelie after ther Apostles tyme. Fulk answer to Counterf Cath. p. 35. I haue a horrour to recite what the bouldnes of your men doth auouch further towching the Christian Church in common and her Apostasie from the faith coÌ„trarie to the seÌ„se of all Antiquity and to the iudgment of the Christian world yea contrarie to the promises of Iesus Christ and to the couenant of allmightie God as hereafter I will shewe Meane while compare these textes vnto your doctrine of the Church In the later dayes shall be prepared the mountaine Isay 2. the house of our lord in the toppe of mountaines and it shall be raised aboue the litle hilles and all Nations shall flowe vnto it Thou shalt not be called any more forsaken and thy land shall not be any more called desolate Id. c. 62. but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because our lord hath taken complacence in thee and thy land shall be inhabited Id. c. 59. My spirit that is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede saith our lord from hence foorth and for euer 17. The Church in the Scripture is so ample that All nations flowe vnto it so established and so deare vnto Christ that she is no more forsaken but her laÌ„d euer

verum est Sacrificium Missaticum torum penÃ¨ terrarum orbem inuasisse praesertim superiore proximo millenaâ—io Hutter I graunt willingly that the Papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especially these last thousand yeares g. Simon Voyon Catal. Doct. in ep to the reader Simon Voyon when Boniface was stalled in the Papall throne the whole world was ouer whelmed in the dregges of Antichristian filthines with superstitions and Traditions of the Pope Then was that vniuersall Apostasie from the faith foretould by Paul h. Bibliander orat ad Princip Germ. c. 72. apud Caluinoturc l. 1. c. 4. A morte Gregorij magni ponimus esse per se notum clarissimum extta omnem dubitationem quod Papa Romanus sit Antichristus qui suis abominationibus blaspheâ—iis Idololatriis omnes regesterrae populos Ã summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt brutis ipsis essent stupidiores Bibliander It is of it selfe knowne most cleere and out of all question that from the death of Gregorie the greate the Pope of Rome is Antichrist who with his abominations blasphemies and idolatries so made drunke all kings and people from the highest to the lowest that they were more stupid then very beasts i. Hospinian Hist Sacram. l. 2 p. 157. Gregorij magni aetate omne superstitionis idololatriae genus c. Hospinian In the age of Gregory the greate all kinde of superstition and Idolatrie hath as a Sea ouerflowed allmost all the Christian world not only none resisting but rather all helping and adding thereunto what force they could Thus I haue by Protestants assigned to me the space wherein Papistrie hath ben generall and the supposed Protestancie supprest I meane from Luther vpwards to Boniface and to the death of Gregory the great 20. Now that the Religion generall in the world then was the same with that which was generall in the world in the tyme of Gregorie the greate who died but three yearet before Boniface is manifest by the testimonie of a world of eie witnesses that is by the testimonie of all kingdomes Nations Schollers Pastors People by the testimonie I say of all ChristiaÌ„ Churches which being in the time of Boniface and of our Religion as you heard your Deuines confesse had most of them seene the exercise of the Religion in all the world in S. Gregories tyme and could not be deceaued in the fact subiect to the eie euery where as going to Masse praying to a. Perkins expos Creede pag. 266. b. Bale Centur. 1.74 Id. p. 65. saints coÌ„fessioÌ„ to Priests adoratioÌ„ of the Blessed sacrament c. They had allso all meanes that meÌ„ could haue to be informed certainly of the Religion of the world in S. Gregories tyme Books Records Relations eies to see the practise immediatly eares to heare what they said Instruction Baptisme Bible Orders all they had from them immediatly and the matter touched theÌ„ all and each in particular more then lands life or whatsoeuer else can be deare to man I might confirme this further out of Gods assistaÌ„ce to the Church out of which it commeth ineuitablie that neither the former Religion could abruptly stop as you imagine and the faith faile the Church fall on the suddaine the Church I say diffused thorough the world nor all knowne ChristiaÌ„ Churches in succeeding tyme or the whole Christian world generally erre in a matter of the greatest moment in the discerning the true Religion and the true Church of former tymes Leauing you therefore to deale with babes whom you may peraduenture make beleeue on your bare word without euideÌ„ce against histories against the promise of almighty God aÌ„d against the testimony of all the Church of that tyme that whilst all were a sleepe it seemes by your dreame the Religion of the world was generally changed in Boniface his tyme after the death of Gregorie I take vpon the testimonie of a world of people vpon the Testimonie of all Nations then Christian that it was not but that the Religion then currant was the Religion currant in the tyme of Gregorie the greate 22. Now that S. Gregorie had communion with all the world euery one knowes by his Epistiles to the Bisshops of Corinth Siracusa Extant inter Op. D Greg. Constantinople Alexandria Carthage Numidia Ierusalem Arabia Antioche Arles Vienna c. You graunt also that he did communicate with the former ages and was of the same Religion with them which is allso cleere by the consent and iudgment of the Christian world in his tyme who beleeued that he and they were of the same Religion with the Church of the precedent age and had best meanes to know it The same Church and Religion in the tyme of Leo the greate was also vniuersall and this likewise out of his writings may be prooued The vniuersalitie I say of Leo his communion is knowne cleerly by his Epistles to the Bisshops of Italie Ie op v. Ie France Thessalonica Vienna Sicilie Campania Tuscia Alexandria Antioch Constantinople Ierusalem c. in a word it is included and to the world made knowne by the Councell of Chalcedon If you will ascend hiegher with this vniuersalitie goe vp to Syluesters tyme and his communion with all the Christian world you haue in the first Nicene Councell and Further I thinke you will not presse me though I could further name S. Paul witnessing of the Roman faith that it was renowned in the whole world 22. Hauing bene loÌ„ge in the former argumeÌ„t and the longer because I would see whether you could make the like in all respects for the vniuersalitie of your Church and doctrine Arg. 6 there curraÌ„t amoÌ„ge you I will now be shorter in the next which I will frame out of the CoÌ„fession of Protestants too not so much for their authoritie which I esteeme not as to stop your mouth and it shall be this Bright-maÌ„ in his Apocalyps saith that the Church Protestant was hidden from the tyme of Constantine to wit 1260. yeeres that then the supposed Protestancie went into the desert Bright in cap. 11. â—2 Apoc. Id. p. 577. Broc on Reuel fol. 110 12â— Nap. Reuel p. 68. See also p. 191. and that euer since Antichrist so he calls the Pope hath raigned Brocard saith also the church supposed ProtestaÌ„t was trodden downe and oppressed by the Papacie euen froÌ„ Syluesters tyme to those tymes viz. 1260. yeeres aÌ„d Napper saith Betwene the yeare of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian and Papisticall raigne began raigning vniuersally and without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260 yeeres the Pope and his clergie possessing the outward visible Church of Christians all that tyme. And for the supposed Protestant Church and doctrine he saith Gods true Church most certainely abode so longe latent Ours therefore by the confession of these Protestants was vniuersall longe before the tyme of Gregorie the greate I knowe that you obiect the Primacie to

is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a maÌ„ may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned aÌ„d vnlerned late aÌ„d auÌ„cieÌ„t is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people aÌ„d their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poiÌ„ts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religioÌ„ and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then meÌ„ doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstaÌ„d howe the Catholiques in the whole body froÌ„ the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstaÌ„ding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstaÌ„ding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religioÌ„ vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religioÌ„ as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundameÌ„talls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundameÌ„talls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie aÌ„d putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt SecoÌ„dlie it is obscure aÌ„d therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this

founde to hold with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple aÌ„d doubt must be the true and Catholique doctrine of the Church Whosoeuer beleeue that Christ came in our flesh and that he arose from death to life in the same flesh in which he was borne and suffered S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 4. and that he is the sonne of God God with God and one with the Father and the one vnchangeable word of the Father by which all things are made but do so disagree with his body which is the Church that they hold not communion with the whole as farre as euer it is spred about the world but are found separate in some part or corner it is manifest that they are not in the Catholique Church Prosp de promiss praedic Dei par 4. c. 5. The Apostles Peeter and Paul deliuering in the cittie of Rome to posterity the doctrine of our Lord peaceable and one haue consecrated the Church of the Gentiles with their blood and memories according to the passioÌ„ of our Lord. A ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„municating with this generall Church is a Catholique S. Cypri de Vnit. Eccl. He that is separated froÌ„ it is an Heretique There is one heade aÌ„d one origeÌ„ aÌ„d one mother by the issue of her fecuÌ„ditie copious by her increase wee are borne wee are nourished with her milke with her spirit wee are animated The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery shee is pure and honest She knoweth one house and with chast bashfullnes keepeth the sanctity of one bed This Church preserueth vs in God this aduanceth to the kingdome the children she hath brought foorth VVhosoeuer deuided from this Church cleaueth to the adultresse he is separated from the promises of the Church He cannot haue God his Father who hath not the Church to his mother In the Church S. Iren. l. 9 adu Haereâ— c. 40. God hath constituted Apostles Prophets Doctors and all the rest of the operation of the Spirit of which those are not partakers who repaire not vnto the Church VVhere the Church is THERE IS THE SPIRIT of God and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church and all grace Idem l. â— c. 4â— VVee must obay those Priests that are in the Church those that haue Succession from the Apostles who tegeather with Episcopall power haue according to the good pleasure of the Father receaued the certaine guift of truth And all the rest who depart from the originall Succession wheresoeuer they be assembled to haue suspected either as Heretiques or Schismatiques or Hypocrites â—actant â— 4. ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ â—nstitut c. â—lt and all these doe fall from the truth It is onely the Catholique Church that hath the true worship and seruice of God This is the wellspring of truth the dwelling place of faith the temple of God into which whosoeuer entreth not and from which whosoeuer departeth is without all hope of life ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ Aug. de â—de ad â—et c. 39. and eternall Saluation Hold for most certaine and vndoubted that no Heretique nor Schismatique though baptized in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost though he giue almes neuer so largely yea though he shed his blood for the name of Christ can possiblie be saued vnles he be reconciled vnto the Catholique Church 70. I omit many other graue speaches of holie Fathers to this effect of consenting with the Church in faith and submitting our iudgment thereunto And of S. Augustine particularlie whom I do alleage more willinglie because you preteÌ„d to honour him as where he saith for his part he would not beleeue the Gospell ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ Aug. coÌ„t Ep. fund c. â— vnles the authoritie of the Church moued him That he was held in the Church by the consent of people â— c. 4. and Nations by an authoritie begotten with miracles nourished with hope increased by antiquitie And that it is a point of most insolent madnes to dispute whether that be to be obserued which is frequented by the whole Church through the world Ep. 118. c. â— Moreouer what S. Augustine said of S. Cyprian he might haue said of any other father to wit that he would haue yelded to the authority of the Church Neither would the Fathers hold communion with any who did oppose themselues to the definitions of generall Councells or to the doctrine of the Church but held them for Heretiques 81. And thus much for this point wherein I haue not alleaged the foresaid authorities to moue you for I knowe that in your * Vide I. Rain Concl. 2. fine conscience you will not yeeld to the Fathers neither a part nor all together in Generall Councell nor stoope to their Spirit nor beleeue their Creede But I haue done it to shewe you that I haue learned of them the doctrine which I tould you and that by their exaÌ„ple I do submit my vnderstaÌ„ding to the Church in all coÌ„trouersies and securelie rest in her iudgmeÌ„t For she with infinite eies doth allwayes diligentlie looke on Gods word aÌ„d with infinite care aÌ„d industrie attends vnto the truth Good wits though learned may mistake each scholler is not a SaiÌ„t the guifts of the Spirit are deuided amoÌ„g meÌ„ But all the treasure of the spirit all the Saints aÌ„d Predestinate the highest Authoritie aÌ„d all meanes possible for mortall men to learne the truth are in the Church There the Angells of the Gospell deliuer the will of the diuine Maiestie there the Secretaries of heauen do register Gods words and there Iesus Christ our Master doth teach and bringe vp his Elect and prepare them for his high Schoole of deuinitie wherein the Cherubins and Seraphins haue their order From * You say that wee obtrude vnto you doctrine for diuine which is not such For the nouice in Controuersie at some parts of the Bible Inuocation of Saincts Purgatorie wee denie that wee propose any thing for diuine and reuealed which is not indeede diuine and reuealed This is therefore a Controuersie betwixt vs. What way is there to know the truth in this controuersie The Spirit where In the Church Againe you say wee interprete the Scriptures wrong wee denie it what Iudge The spiritte of truth where In the Schoole of Iesus Christ VVhich is this Schoole The Church VVhich is the Church That which is in communion with Vrbanus 8. Reflect well on this discourse and make the like on all occasioÌ„s in any CoÌ„trouersie of faith whatsoeuer Is it a controuersie you speake of or is it agreed on both sides If a Controuersie and in Religion the truth may be knowne The question then comes Who it to Iudge And the Answer is The spirit In Whom in The Church But you will aske why must wee stand to the Iudgment of the Spirit in the Church rather then to the iudgment of the Spirit in N. N. as in Iohn Caluin for example I answere because wee knowe

A DISPVTATION OF THE CHVRCH Wherein the old Religion is maintained V. M. C. F. E. Ierem. 6.16 Aske of the old paths which is the good way and walke in it and you shall find refreshing for your soules LAVDA BILE NOMEN DOMINI AT DOWAY By MARCK WYON at the golden Phaenix 1629. TO MY FRINDS IN ENGLAND DEARE FRINDS I haue vnderstood of your troubles and doe take comfort in your constancie Your cause is cleere your religion that which the sonne of God hath taught In former time no other was in England So much you know by the Histories and Chronicles of the country so you haue ben told by your parents who sawe the profession of it with their owne eies so your ancestors doe testifie by their wills and graues Your Churches there were built for the exercise of it as you can prooue by the generall forme of them by the crosses and pictures by the altars made for Masse Euer since the conuersion of the country from Paganisme by Sainct Augustine and his fellowes monkes it hath beene there till of late and S. Augustine brought it from Rome where it had beene common from the time of S. Peeter and S. Peeter learned it of our Sauiour Iesus Christ Those that are learned if they will looke into the Ecclesiasticall History which diuers and of late the worthy Cardinall Caesar Baronius haue compiled may see there looking vpwards to the Apostles time this Religion descending thorough all ages in sacred esteeme euer the preachers gods trumpets proclaiming it the generall councells making roome the martyrs testifying the truth of it with their blood the light of miracles accompanying it all the way and worlds of people waiting on The Societie of those that professe it is the Church and is diffused ouer the World and Catholique it is that Church which in your Creede you doe beleeue This is the spouse of the sonne of God the woman clad with the sunne manifest vnto all that willfully do not shutte their eies by her antiquitie cleere successioÌ„ vniuersality and the twelue-fold Apostolicall glorie doth crowne her heade or beginning Shee hath beene opposed by diuers Heresies but still gotte the victory bringing foorth Saincts to Iesus Christ in the labour of persecution You know the counsell of the Scripture Sonne comming to the seruice of God prepare thy soule to temptation and the affirmation of the Apostle is generall All those that will liue godly shal suffer persecutâ—on The state of the Church heere is militant and those are to be crowned that ouercome The way to heauen is full of crosses mockeries stripes and the sword helpe vs on This way those are gone of whom the world was not worthy afflicâ—ed needie in distresse This way our blessed Sauâ—our went who was heere contemned scourgel crucified It is the King of Heauens high way Our heade is gone before all blood and so entered into blisse the Apostles the Martyrs the Confessoâ—s old Simeon too and little Agnes are gone after him with their crosses and wee are bid if will liue eternally to take vp each of vs one and followe To take the spoile of your goods with ioy is to enbrace and kisse your crosse There is no deliberation when I must leaue gold or god no comparison betwixt a diamond in a gold ring and the deitie in eternitie O my deare frinds you haue each of you a Iewell within your selues richer then all the eie can see without fairer then the sunne it self and farre aboue all the disposition of the stars The vsurers Idol gold waxeth pale if you compare it to the burning sparkles of the chrysolite In your Iewell you may see heauen and earth in the compasse of the vnderstanding It hath engrauen in it the image of allmighty God and is for nature next an angell by grace companion with him as being to beare a part in the heauenly quire and there without astonishment to sing allelluia with those thousand thousand glorious queristers if the fault be not yours The Soule hauing free will had once lost it self you may by the meanes taken to recouer it know the worth The sonne of God came from heauen downe to looke it and redeemed it with that which is better then the world his life Those infinite wrongs which he suffered from men of all sorts â—hose innumerable stripes which he receaued from the soldiers whose crueltie made him all a wound the bitter passion of the crosse which no words are able to expresse was all for our redemption for the soule If you loose it now againe you wrong his loue you depriue him of his right you moue his father whose angry lookes are burning fire to reueng It is horrible to fall into the hands of the liuing God The pillars of heauen do tremble and dreade at his beck He hath measured the water with his fiste and pondered the heauens with a spanne He looketh on the earth and maketh it to treÌ„ble toucheth the mountaines and they smoke If you keepe it well he will make it a heauen wherein he with the father and the holy Ghost will dwell foreuer And your bodies he wil invest with ornaments of glory aÌ„d immortallity and place each of you in a throne with himself in the court of heauen where all are kings You shall dwell in the celestiall Ierusalem whose streete is all of pure gold and walls pretious stone where God is the Temple and the light These things God hath promised vnto those who serue him wherefore aboue all haue a care of your religion Your soule is your Iewel and Religion is the Iewel of your sowle Keepe these well and you shaâ—l be happie though persecution leaue you nothing els Each of you may haue a common wealth a kingdome within your selues if you please No State more happie no gouerment more sweete then that is where loue commaundeth and vertues do obay Let Charitie be Queene in your soule and the Vertues will all bâ— there Let men see the streingth of your faitâ— in your constancie and the sanctitie of it in tâ—e candor of your conuersation Giue all men theâ—r due to whom tribute tribute to whom Feare Feâ—re to whom honour honour In your actiâ—ns be circumspect as it becommeth Christians who beleeue the eies of God and Angels are oâ— them still and that each action is inrowled exactly to be reade and censured in the day of doome Loâ—ke oft on the liues of Saincts and by their example learne how you are to carrie your selues in yoâ—r difficulties you will do things with more ease wheÌ„ you see them doÌ„ne before you those were menâ—s wee are Be not afraid of persecution The protâ—ction of allmighty God is more then a wall of brâ—sse they who trust in him are safe mountaines in ciâ—cuite of the holy cittie and our Lord round about his people Nothing caÌ„ rob vs of our soules vnles wee will and if that be saued wee shall haue all that God hath for wee shal haue him Our

on with your conceipt but wrong not other men The Aethiopians as blacke as they are doe loath and abhorre the communion of your Church and are the more vnwilling to heare of it Luther Respons ad Dialog Syluest Pri. Calu. in Antidot Conc. Tri. sess 6. c. 12. because she is not ashamed to professe that she caÌ„not keepe the coÌ„maundementes with all the helpe she hath froÌ„ God allmightie and coÌ„sequentlie that she cannot for beare blasphemie nor errour nor witchcraft nor adulterie nor murder nor robberie in fine that she caÌ„not possiblie obserue that Minimum legis mandatuÌ„ onus Aetna grauius Calu. Ibid. which equitie doth require and God commaund And for this among other reasons not Ethiopians onelie but all the rest of the world loathe her and wishe she were retired againe into her hole of inuisibilitie 12. As touching your maÌ„ner of answearing I wish you to consider that you doe not satisfie our demaund nor euer will by naming such as agree not with vs in some one point or more White Illyricus vnles you prooue likewise that they doe agree with you and be of the religioÌ„ which in England you professe For example if you name a maÌ„ which denied the Popes primacie Ob. The Papists haue not a Succession of such as they are Answ. l. 2. c. 6. and l. 3. c. 4. as you doe if this man consent not with you in other thinges it is childish to thinke you satisfie our demaund by naming him he may be in other pointes of the same minde with vs or with Arians or with NestoriaÌ„s or with Eutichians or Mahometans or Iewes or Athiestes and therfore not a Protestant vnles you admit all kind of men into your communion and will haue the Protestant Church to be the congregation of them all And this too would not serue for the thing wee demauÌ„d is a catalogue or successioÌ„ of meÌ„ whose religion is the same with yours and currant there in EnglaÌ„d In like maÌ„nner if you should name a man which agreed with you in one halfe of your positions and in the other halfe dissented this man were not yours yea lesse then halfe or a quatter or the tenth part is Ynough to diuide a man from communion and from vnitie in beleefe as you may see in S. Epiphanius S. Epiph. op Panar S. Aug. de Haeres tom 6. and S. Augustine That you may the better conceaue me suppose one of your fellowes is become an Arian I aske you whether he be of your religion and whether his religion be currant there in England or not if it be then Arianisme is there curraÌ„t though the Roman profession be abhorred if it be not theÌ„ a fewe yea one point is ynough to diuide you in religion from that man and him from you Now those men which you bring were each of them contrarie in many pointes as Waldo Berengarius Wickleffe and therefore diuided and distinct in religion froÌ„ you Neither will your distinction of points fundamentall and not fundameÌ„tall help you here both because those men did differ in your fundamentall aÌ„d most essentiall point of Protestancie that is in the matter of Iustification as also because errours in other pointes besides those which you call fundamentall are sufficient to make distinction in religion which is euident and by your selues caÌ„not be denied for you saie that Papistes holde all fuÌ„dameÌ„talls and yet their religion is not yours But of this I haue spoked alreadie and neede not repeate it I onelie adde now that a man by your principles may denie euery verse which is in the Bible and obstinatelie too excepting that onelie which is expressed in the three Creedes and Baptisme and the Supper and yet be of the same Church and communion with your selfe And what thinke you of your fellow that saieth further that Arian Churches are allso to be accompted the Churches of God because they hold the foundation of the Gospell If this hold Morton of the Kingd of Isr and the Church p. 94. what makes an heretique what communion doe you refuse what Church among Christians can be false If all the Bible but twelue propositions or there aboutes if the Incarnation if the Trinitie if the Christians God may be denied and the deniers be accompted the Church of God It restes that you saie now that the Turkes are also of the same Church and religion with your selues 13. A like obseruatioÌ„ to the former I would haue you to reflect on wheÌ„ our meÌ„ demauÌ„d White what Church wee went out of and what precedent Church did oppose it selfe to our religion and contradict it Wee doe not aske whether any man euer did oppose any part of our beleefe wee know there were such there were some which did oppose the deitie of our Sauiour some the Deitie of the holy Ghost some the real Presence some Images c. this wee know but the demauÌ„d requires proofe of a ProtestaÌ„t Church or any other if you be wearie of defeÌ„ding your owne which being before ours did examine iudge and coÌ„demne our religion If your men will giue satisfaction to the questioÌ„ they must answeare this they must assigne a visible Church allwayes extant which did still condemne our religion whensoeuer wee appeared and being one in it selfe was still against vs at all tymes when wee were Your last answere is that the Church of God was all infected with erroures for many hundred yeares which errours were such notwithstanding saie you as destroied not her essence white And this conceipt you declare in the exaÌ„ple of a leprouse maÌ„ For your Church I admit easilie that it is infected with errours The Church of God is not as you shall heare in the third booke where that matter shall be examined in the meane tyme I repeate the former argument and put it thus Either all Christians before Luther did erre in Matters of religioÌ„ Arg. or some onelie or none at all If none at all did erre Then why would you mend that which by your coÌ„fession was not before amisse why trouble you the world to bringe in a newe religion without which you confesse it was well before If all of them did erre in matters of religion then your religion did not come downe to you from the Apostles by a succession continuall as you pretend your faith and religion was not alwayes in the world the Gospell was not sincearlie and incorruplie professed at all tymes I adde further if al did erre then you haue vndertaken a taske vnpossible in your owne iudgment in offering to maintaine a perpetuall existence or being of your religion and you quarrell with all that went before And where then was the all teaching spiritte did he mistake the true doctrine or did Christ breake his word If some onelie did erre and not all giue vs a Catalogue of some of theÌ„ who did not erre let vs heare their names the place of their aboade the profession they were

inhabited so mind full of God that she hath his words euer in her mouth and by this she is euer existent euer visible That Church or whore which you hunte after perished longe agoe for many ages she was not seene her faith was extinguished her religion drowned she was no where visible she had no face she vanished presentlie immediatelie after the Apostles dayes Our Religion in the meane tyme hathe bene vniuersall many hundred yeares it hath ouer flowed the Christian world none resisting and raigned vniuersallie without any debateable contradiction these thousand two hundred sixtie yeares And thus much of them both you confesse 18. I come now to speake of the religion of the Church primitiue or first six hundred yeares as you measure it and obiect that you doe not nor euer will be able to conuince by cleare and sufficient euidence that the Christian Church in those tymes was of the religion currant now in England and therfore you doe not conuince our vnderstandings that wee should leaue that religion which a thousand yeeres together was currant here in England being then allso by your owne confession the religion of the Christian world and communicate with your congregation And to shewe you here how hard a taske you haue in hand being to giue euidenee of the consent of those tymes with you in religion I will put three considerations in your way which declare the difficultie and indeede the impossibilitie of the taske The first shall be the iudgmeÌ„t of those who liued since that tyme aÌ„d before vs the second the testimonies of the Fathers theÌ„ selues who liued in that primitiue age the third the confession of your owne prime deuines and these I will runne ouer as brieflie as I can 19 First therfore our Religion or Papistrie as you call it had possession of the Christian Arg. 1 world before Luther nine hundred yeares together You confesse the same as wee haue seene aboue nu 16. as all histories doe prooue cleerlie and these Christians all on their Saluation haue deposed that theirs was the verie same religion with that which was commoÌ„ in the first six huÌ„dred yeares and receaued from the Apostles and from Christ himselfe Among them were greate Schollers graue Prelates and holie meÌ„ in great abundance and greater meanes to knowe which was the religion of their forefathers then are now wherfore the question being of fact onelie it is not possible to resolue it better now then those could resolue it then The question I say is now aÌ„d then was of fact as whether the knowne Church of God spred ouer the world in the sixt age for example did frequeÌ„t masse adore the blessed Sacrament confesse their sinnes to Priests fast lent pray to Sainctes and the like what wee knowe of these things wee haue by the relation or writings of others which were before vs for wee caÌ„not see so far immediately with our owne eies nor immediatelie heare them speaking in that age which is past many hundred yeares agoe Those before vs did learne of others that were elder the fourteenth age learned of the thirteenth the thirteeÌ„th of the twelfth the eight of the seuenth the seuenth was immediate vnto the sixt aÌ„d therefore had best meanes to resolue this point because these meÌ„ had their Being Instruction Baptisme Sacraments Orders Records the Bible and all others things from them we speake of that is from the sixt age aÌ„d being close to them of that age So compare the 6. age to the 5. the 5. to the 4. c. and in part allso liuing with them could see heare obserue remember and tell what they did Since therfore all these did beleeue and professe and teach vnto their successors and to their dearest frinds and children aÌ„d generallie vnto the world that theirs was the religioÌ„ of their forefathers it is too late for you now to endeauour to prooue the contrarie for you haue no kinde of historie no monument no relation no fathers writing no scrowle no obseruation in fine noe euidence touching the foresaid age but from them To this I adde that it is vnpossible for the whole Church in any age to erre which is so cleere that to man leaues any way to himselfe to be assured in any point of faith from Antiquitie or from the scripture or from the spirit who denieth it It is therefore vnpossible that for nine hundred yeeres together it should be mystaken in this great affaire of the religioÌ„ of the whole World before them And if the Spirit forsooke it for so loÌ„ge a tyme together notwithstanding Gods promise you labour in vaine to make men beleeue that he is at leÌ„gth returned in your tyme or another promise more faithfully establisshed now Better were it for you to beleeue with vs that allmightie God hath not violated his couenant wherof I spake before my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed Isay 59.21 and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede from this present and foreuer And that his eternall ordinance stands in force whereof S. Paul speaketh saying that God gaue Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the saincts Ephes 4. v. 11.12 vnto the worke of the ministerie to the edifieing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnity of faith 21. The second meanes or demonstration Arg. 2 is deduced larglie through all ages and out of all the Fathers writings by diuers of our men Thesaurus Catholicus Iod. Cocc among the rest you may looke vppon Coccius and Gualterius who haue expressed our consent with the primitiue Church so fullie and brought such euident and so resolute decrees of auncient Fathers against your errours Tabula Chronographica stat Eccl. Cath. â—aâ— Gualt that you haue dispaired longe agoe of euer winning the cause by this kinde of triall The authorities which they alleage are allmost infinite Coccius hath filled with them two great Tomes and my intention is not to make a booke of this matter but a peece of a Chapter onelie Brieflie therefore for exaÌ„ple I will giue aÌ„ instaÌ„ce in two or three such as doe come first into my minde You denie the primacie of the Roman See the beleefe of vnwritten Doctrine or Tradition the reall preseÌ„ce traÌ„substantiatioÌ„ or coÌ„uersioÌ„ of the substaÌ„ce of breade into the flesh of Christ oblatioÌ„ or vnbloody Sacrifice in the Church prayer for the dead inuocatioÌ„ of Sainctes Crossing c. In the Fathers wee reade thus S. Aug. Ep. 162. Iren. l. 3. aduers Haer. c. 3. The principalitie of the Apostolicall chaire hath euer florished in the Roman Church It is necessarie that euery Church that is all faithfull rounde aboute resorte vnto the Roman Church because of her more powerfull Principalitie in which Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles is allwayes kept by the faithfull which are round about Leo Sem 3.

of S. Paul The chalice of benediction which wee do blesse is it not the communication of the bloud of Christ and the bread which wee breake is it not the participation of the body of our lord I answeare that our doctrine is not here denied but affirmed for the Apostle teacheth here importing withall by his manner of speach the doctrine to be so well and so commonly knowne that none can denie it he teacheth I say that the breade and the cuppe are the communication of the body and bloude of our lord The reason whereof is cleere because in those formes are exhibited reallie the body and the bloude of Christ Whereas in your sense there were no reall receauing giuing or participating of the body and bloud of Christ but of bakers breade and meere wine And therefore to the Apostle the Corinthians if they had bene of your Religion might haue answeared no it is not any communication participation or communion of bloude and flesh but of naturall meate and drinke If you stick at the word breade you are dull for the words annexed to it doe interprete fully what breade it is and before you haue the word applied and the sense of it inculcated in the Sixt of S. Iohn where our Sauiour saith the breade which I will giue is my flesh Io. 6. v. 51.32.58.48 my father giues you true bread from heauen I am the breade of life c. where I thinke you are not so seÌ„sles as to take the word breade for that which bakers make More ouer this flesh or body of Iesus Christ is in the forme of bread in the Church as it was allso in his owne haÌ„d wheÌ„ he gaue it uÌ„to his disciples aÌ„d therefore after the phrase of Scripture it is called breade Mar. 16. Act. 1. as Angells appearing in meÌ„s likenes are there called meÌ„ 30. Fourthlie whereas wee say that it is not necessary the publique seruice be said in the vulgar tongue You oppose those words of S. Paul If I pray in a tongue to wit 1. Cor. 14. v. 14. which I vnderstand not my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Answ The meaning is that I haue not in that case the benefit of profiting my soule or minde with contemplation of the thinge yet neuer the lesse my Spirit is eleuated and ascendeth vnto God which is the substance and essence of prayer and this is nothing against vs. You vrge againe if thou blesse in Spirit how shall he say amen which doth supplie the place of the vulgar v. 16. since he knoweth not what thou sayest Answ The meaning is if thou speake some praise of God the hearers not knowing whether it be good or bad he that supplies the place of the vulgar cannot say amen to it Neither is this against vs for our coÌ„mon prayers or liturgies are both knowne and approoued by the Church to whom this approbation doth belonge and this all do know and therefore the clarke or he that supplieth the place of vulgar may boudly sâ—â— Amen Moreouer the Apostle doth not censure as ill that blessing in Spirit which you do vrge but sayeth expresly that he doth giue thankes well which doth so v. 17. If you say the contrary theÌ„ you coÌ„tradict the scripture not wee De imputa iustitia nihil noruÌ„t VValdenses Luth. colâ—oq c. de Suermeris Coce l. 8. â— 4. 31. The fift place is to shewe by Scripture that iustifyiÌ„g faith is that speciall faith whereby you beleeue that your sinnes are all forgiuen and you iust by an extrinsecall imputation of the iustice inherent in Iesus Christ This which is the ground and soule of your Religion wee denie Your proofe is Abraham beleeued God and it was imputed vnto him to iustice Rom. 4.3 v. 16. And therefore of faith that according to grace the promise may be firme Answ This is nothing against vs nor for you for the question is of the Obiect of this faith whether it were the remission of sinnes to him that beleeued they were remitted as you interprete it From the 16. v. to the end or somthing els Reade further and you shall finde in the same Chapter that the Obiect or thing he beleeued was that God would make him the father of many Nations and that notwithstanding his owne age and the sterilitie of his wife God was able to performe this promise Of your Obiect there is not one word neither is it to be fouÌ„d any where in all the Bible The Obiect of Iustifying faith if you beleeue Scripture is the Incarnation the Passion Resurrection and other revealed Mysteries Who is he that ouercometh the world he that beleeueth that Iesus Christ is the sonne of God â— Io. 5. v. 5. Rom. 10.9 If thou confesse with thy mouth our lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him from the deade thou shalt be saued Without faith it is vnpossible to please God for Heb. 11.6 he that coÌ„meth to God must beleeue that he is and is a rewarder to them that seeke him This is the Obiect of iustifying faith and the second part you do not beleeue because it implieth a merite in the beleeuer 32. The sixt place is about communion of lay people in both kinds You would haue it a diuine precept for the lay people I admit a diuine precept for the Priests who do consecrate and denie that there is any such whereby the lay people are commanded to receaue the Sacrament in both kinds Your place is Drinke ye all of this Mat. 26.27 But this place doth not import a precept or commaund for the lay people to receaue the blood for the speach is not directed to the lay people but to the Apostles And the word all is referd to them and was verified by them This is manifest by the words of the Gospell He gaue to his Disciples and said take and eate ibid. v. 26.27.28 this is my body And taking the chalice he gaue thankes and gaue to them the same disciples saying drinke ye all of this for this is my bloode c. And S. Marke relating it saith and taking the chalice giuing thanks he gaue to them and they all dranke of it If all dranke of it theÌ„ by all the Apostles are meant onely for all men were not there neither haue all Christians drunke of it In this therefore you haue produced no diuine precept for all men in their owne persons to receaue the blood 33. The seaueÌ„th place is to prooue the Scripture to be iudge of CoÌ„trouersies aÌ„d sufficient of it selfe without helpe of TraditioÌ„ Wee hold the necessity of TraditioÌ„ too â— Tim. 3.16 The place is All scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the maÌ„ of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Answ This is not against vs wee graunt tath it is profitable Wee denie that it is

fond persuasion any indifferent man who doth vnderstand Latine may do thus In anie maine controuersie of faith which you question and accuse this great companie I now speake of of innouation do you name the tyme when their doctrine first began and let him who would see the triall take Gualterius Coccius or some other of our Authors who write of that matter and he shall find another in the primitiue Church who did teach it before the tyme or partie you assigned whereby it will be euident vnto him that you were deceaued about the begining of it And if he follow the direction of the booke he shall finde the same in the Fathers I said in any maine controuersie of faith and not in any thinge whatsoeuer because the Church hath power to make lawes and prescribe ceremonies and therefore may introduce or alter such thinges according as the circumstances in her iudgment require For this reason I speake of points of faith or such things whose institution wee hold to be Diuine For example the substance of Baptisme is of diuine institution but Ceremonies haue beene added and the substance of the Masse is by diuine institution but prayers and Ceremonies haue beene and may yet be added by the Church 17. If you be discontented with this manner of proceeding from which without a preiudice you caÌ„not disclaime at all I vrge an other and take learned men to scanne the businesse In the seauenth age when the Christian word was Papisticall and of our Religion as you confesse the Schollers and wisest men had the Fathers writinges and the Memories of the sixt age which you must needes graunt because the precedent age did leaue them to their posteritie the Fathers to their Children the Masters to their Schollers Now those of the seauenth age as I haue noted more fullie in the former booke Bysshops Pastors learned meÌ„ and generallie all the Church of that tyme hauing these pregnant and infallible meanes of informatioÌ„ by writings and otherwise did iudge and beleeue and therevppon did engage their part in heauen and eternall estate that they receaued their faith and Religion from the former age being the sixt Wherefore since a world of men in matter of Facte as whether their Fathers weÌ„t to Masse praied to Saincts c. could not be deceaued the thing being subiect to the eie and there being infinite eies obseruing religiously what was donne it followes cleerlie since the world generally did then beleeue this to be the Religion professed by their Fathers that so it was 18. My fourth argument shall be this Papistrie as you terme it was the generall ReligioÌ„ of the ChristiaÌ„ world in the tyme of Boniface the third as you may see in the Ecclesirsticall histories of that tyme whereby appeares that all generally did goe to Masse pray to Saincts confesse their sinnes c. and your men allso Arg. 4 do confesse it Againe the true Religion was once in Rome their communion once was withall the world and this Religion did remaine in the communion of Nations till the tyme of S. Leo and S. Gregory the Great as you may obserue in their bookes wherein their communion with the Christian world is manifest so compare the sixt age to the fift the fift age to the fourth c. as I before did the 7. to the 6. Now Sainct Gregory died in the yeare six hundred and fower and Bonifacius the third who in the tyme of S. Gregory had bene imployed at Constantinople came to be Pope and died also within the space of three yeares after in which space the Religion of the Christian world was not generally changed as wee see manifestly by all histories of that tyme therefore the Religion which was vniuersally in the world in Bonifacius his tyme was the same religion with that which was vniuersally in the world in tyme of S. Gregorye which Religion you confesse to be the right Moreouer that in the foresaid space of three yeares it was not changed besides the Testimony which is taken out of the histories of that tyme where no mention is made of such a change by friend or foe but all things currant as before in matters of faith I coÌ„firme first by the practise of Sainct Augustine and his companie who being sent by Pope Gregorie brought Papistrie from him into England as is largly obserued in the Protestants Apologie and by your learned men there confessed Prot. Apol tr 1. Sect. â— I prooue it secondly by the writings of such as liued in the sixt Age wherein are expresly contained all pointes of Papistrie which you may finde in Coccius and Gualterius if you take the paines and I will put downe if it be required Thirdly it is not only incredible to any man of iudgment but also manifestly vnpossible by reason of the diuine ordinance and promise of Iesus Christ that all ChristiaÌ„ people in the space of three yeares without meeting in common Councell without resistance of any zealous men without force of armes or other constraint should generally change the religion of the whole world and conspire all generally for you cannot produce any one man who stood for your Religion in that tyme which you would haue vs beleeue was the Religion of the first six hundred yeares there is not in histories mention of any one Protestant man then resisting therefore I say againe it is vnpossible that they should conspire all all kingdomes all states all Prouinces all NatioÌ„s all vniuersities all Bysshops and generally all men liuing learned and vnlearned good and bad Pastors and people against the Euidence of the former Religion against the Religion of the Christian world which you foolishly suppose to haue bene the Protestant howsoeuer against the Religion of the world before them maintayned to that tyme by Fathers Writings and Authority by the force and power of cleere SuccessioÌ„ in the Chaires of Christs Apostles by the word of God interpreted by the Spirit in knowne Saincts by consent of Nations and generally of the Christian world and finally by the seale of infinite miracles recorded euery where and fresh in memory which Religion they had seene exercised in all the Christian world with their owne eies and had practised their owne selues Yet this you make a companie of sillie people to beleeue on your word Isa 59.21 Io 14.16 Ephes 4.14 against a world of eie witnesses against all rhe men of that age yea against Gods couenant with his Church and against the expresse promise of Iesus Christ THIRD CHAPTER Further confirmation that the Companie of Christians in communion with the Bysshop of Rome is the Church 19. THe former Argument because I know you will striue what you can to cauil at it I will second with another taken out of the confession of your Deuines and though I loathe to rehearce their fowle speaches and errours against the Church and her doctrine yet some of theÌ„ here I will set in your way desiring the

haue bene confirmed to Bonifacius by Phocas But this will not hinder my argument for it is one thinge to declare and second an other thing to institute the institution of the Primacie you haue in the Gospell Maâ— ã€ˆâ€¦ã€‰ 18. Io. 21.18 S. Hierom. ep ad Dam Theod. ep ad Renat Presb Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. Touching the existeÌ„cie of our Religion in the tyme of Constantine See more in the Protestant Apol tract 2 c. â— Sect. 3. the acknowledgment you haue in Antiquitie as I will declare hereafter and the exercise before the tyme of Boniface is well knowne On this Rocke will I build my Church said our Sauiour who commended his flocke peculiarly to S. Peeter I quoth S. Ierom to Damasus then Pope Following none formost but Christ doe communicate with thy Holines that is with the chaire of Peeter Vppon that Rocke I knowe the Church was built And Theodoret a Grecian speaking of that See That holy Seate hath the gouerment of all the Churches in the world You heard before what S. Leo said of it and you knowe how he did exercise this power Only because your fellowes are woÌ„t to obiect a speach of S. Cregorie not content to take the interpretation of it from his owne mouth I put you heare in mind that he did exercise this power ouer all the Christian Churches in his tyme and this you haue noted by D. Sanders in his Monarchie Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. and not answered yet He shewes there I say out of S. Gregories owne writings how he did exercise the foresaid power ouer the Bysshops and Churches of Italie Sicilie Corsica Sardinia Africke Spaine Ireland England France Dalmatia Greece Corcyra and that the Patriarcks haue confessed Subiection to the Church of Rome Lastly wee haue the confession of your men here cited in this an gument for the generall obedience to the Pope euer since Constantine which is sufficient for this purpose howsoeuer the Grecians might some tymes beare themselues in some occasions of which I am to speake in an other place 23. A seuenth Arg. It is manifest by the scriptures aboue cited that the Catholique Church is perpetuall and cannot faile and Arg. 7 this by Scripture is meant of the visible Church whereof I haue giuen ample demoÌ„stration in the begining of this second Booke which I desire the reader to peruse and marke Now there is no Christian Church at all that hath bene petpetuall but this which I speake of Therefore this indiuiduall Church is the Catholique Church To See the truth of that I haue assumed let vs looke vpon the rest The Pagans come not in question because their Church is not Christian nor the Iewes for the same reason though they farre exceede you in this point of perpetuitie The Grecians they were in our communion the first thousand yeares and since haue bene neither was Grecisme beleeued allwaies or euer the faith of Nations and communion with you they haue refused Your Church and Religion hath not bene perpetuall as in the former booke wee haue seene to your griefe Another that can callenge there is not not the Aethiopian nor the Maronite nor any whatsoeuer The Roman hath euer beene and her communion euer bene vniuersall therefore this greate and ample Societie is the true Church of God 24. An eigth Argum. That is the Catholique Church whereuÌ„to come all NatioÌ„s aÌ„d out of which all Heretiques do goe But into the communion of that companie which I haue Arg. 8 named that is into the communion of the See of Rome and the companie of Christians communicating with it all Nations hetherto haue come and out of it all Heretiques haue gone Therefore this is and hath euer bene the Catholique Church The proposition is cleere by the promises related in the beginiÌ„g that all Nations should be conuerted to the Church and her gates be euer open day and night to receiue them c. 1. Is 60. S. Aug. de Sym. 6. l. 1. c. 5. and as for Heretiques it is well knowne that they are boughes lopped of the great vine and that that heresie is a corruption of the true faith The assumption you haue at large in Ecclesiasticall Histories and you denie not but in the Primitiue tyme this companie was the Church Baronius Spondan auctar Iarricius Magdeburg Osiander Pappuâ— See Prot. Apol. tr 2. c. 1. s 4. that Nations from Infidelitie were conuerted to it and that Heretikes all went out of the same companie Since vnto the same haue bene conuerted the Germanes Vandalls Polonians Danes Hungarians Noruegians Brasilians Indians and diuers others and to your companie or religion immediatelie from infidelitie no Nation at all Out of the same great companie haue gone all Heretickes since that tyme and among them those who in part were your predecessors Iconoclastes Berengarians Waldenses Albigenses Lollardes Hussites 25. Beare with me if I repeate the same againe Arg. 9 for a nienth argument The Romane See and other congregations in that communion were the Church or the Catholicke Congregation in the tyme of Saint Paul And the same congregation 300. yeares after was still the Catholicke Church and had the communion of the Christian world as you know by the Generall Councell of Nice Into it came SchythiaÌ„s Iberians Armenians Hunnes and others Out went the Marcionites Nouatians Manichees Arianes Betwixt the fourth and fift age was the CouÌ„cell of CalcedoÌ„ and in that tyme likewise the foresaid coÌ„munioÌ„ was the Church Catholique aÌ„d their communion was with the christian world as by that councell of calcedon aÌ„d the Epistles of Leo the great who was President of it all men knowe Into this communion came Scottes French and other Nations Out went Pelagians and Nestorians after whose coÌ„munion in the Aethiopians you seeme to thirst In the next ages followiÌ„g which were the sixt aÌ„d seaueÌ„th were the Generall assemblies at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople One in the tyme of Vigilius being the fifte Generall Councell The other in the tyme of Agatho which you haue in the ToÌ„es of Councelles with most ample subscriptioÌ„ of the Bysshops which were in theÌ„ and by these Generall councelles which did also receaue the former it is euideÌ„t that in those tymes also the coÌ„panie of Christians in coÌ„munioÌ„ with the See of Rome was the Catholicke Church aÌ„d that the communion of those Popes aÌ„d those CouÌ„celles was with the world of Christians Into it came the Pictes Gothes Barbarians and our Countrie Out were cast the Tritheites Monothelites and other such excrementes After those Councelles Followed others One at Nice in the tyme of Adrian the first Another at Constantinople Adrian the second being then Byshop of Rome By which Councelles it is cleere that the communion of the Roman See was then also generall and this companie the Church of God They did also receaue the former Councelles and noe communion was Generall in Christendome or continued by Vniuersall Succession but onelie this Into this companie came the Frisians Hassites Russians Out

all tymes it hath had because the Romaine See or Bisshop as I haue shewed hath communicated with all those Councelles and the communion of each of those Councelles was vniuersall in the tyme wherein it was held by reason of the Nations and kingdomes from whence those Bysshops came which is set downe at large in Baronius And by this wee see cleerlie the greate amplitude of Goâ—â— Church wherof the Prophettes did speake whom in the begining of this booke I haue cited Neither is there any other Christian communion that can equall it all this tyme or is any way answearable to the description there putte downe I would goe Further yet and put your eie to it as it hath bene in each tyme but it is not necessarie to take the paines a generall viewe was all I did inteÌ„d aÌ„d this I haue exhibited The Catholicke Church is seene and knowne by her Vniuersalitie in Tymes aÌ„d Nations this Vniuersalitie is seene in the Generall communion of Christian Churches this generall communion is seene in Generall Councelles and these Councelles you may looke on when you will Hereafter I will examine whether this indiuiduall Church whereof I haue spoken hath diuine assistance and how farre but here I abstract from that question and if you graunt this to be the Catholicke Church as of necessitie you must I haue all I intend in this booke And for this purpose onelie haue brought these fewe motiues omitting infinite others which euerie where you may finde 30. For that which I haue alleaged out of Councells I neede say no more it is their communion onelie which here I vrge and the Tomes of Councells I suppose you haue in your librarie Of the truth of their doctrine I will speake afterwards If you will goe Further yet and see all the Bysshopricks of the Church Notitia Episcopat Aub. Miraei either in elder tymes or now take Miraeus and reade them there and marke allso in him those which are erected since the discouerie of the newe world If you will See the particular demoÌ„stratioÌ„ of each poiÌ„t of our faith out of Antiquity and coÌ„sequentlie the consent of the world in our Religion and cause from the Apostles tyme to this day looke in Cocciê° who hath taken the paines to declare it in two large Tomes and there are vndoubted Authors of euerie age though here aÌ„d there may be some allso which are not vndoubted works which the learned ad such as do write coÌ„trouersie are to discerne it being sufficient for his purpose to haue digested in that sort what he had reade Collat. doctr Cath ac Prot. cuÌ„ expr script verb. If you will See the consent of our Church and her doctrine to Gods word and your opposition to it reade the conference of my Lo. of Chalcedon If you desire to knowe the signes and markes of the true Church and in which and how in particular they are verified reade Bosius you haue it there And finallie if your desire be to see the Acts and Monuments of our Church in particular from yeare to yeare you haue them in Baronius who hath made in this kinde an ocular demonstration of it and thereby of our Church In the former Booke you had other proofes of our Church and in the next you shall haue more for the points which I handle in these three Bookes are connected and vnited so that one maintaines the other And you will finde the Bookes so to conspire against you that when you thinke you haue answeared any one of them the other two will oppose them selues to your answeare and saue me in the iudgment of an intelligent reader the labour of writing any more When you are about your answeare if you will needes be answearing and are thinking with your selfe how I may oppose it out of the grounds laid downe in these three Bookes you will guesse whether I haue spoken within my compasse and if you spend your iudgment more suddainlie your conscience I beleeue will then retract it THE FOVRTH CHAPTER The Iewes reiected 29. I Care not if I leaue you now consideriÌ„g what I said in the last chapter whilst I looke Further into more remote tymes on the begininges of our Church Dispute I neede not because neither the times present nor the persons into whose hands this will come doe require it and the cause doth contayne such an argument of truth that simply to relate ours is to refute others and a relatioÌ„ serues my turne for the coÌ„nection of my discourse In all Nations and at all yeauen the most obscure tymes it hath beene a generall notion a faith transcendent a common and most constant Principle that there is a Deitie soe fathers taught their children so Philosophers did prooue in schooles soe the worlds variety and order and beautie and maiestie did proclaime abroade No man so simple but knowes he hath a cause and each being of the same nature all the species all mankinde hath a cause Each subordinate cause hath a cause and the collection of subordinate and depending causes doth argue the existencie of a higher power supereminent vnto the collection on which power they all depend which efficient being none of the dependant causes is whollie without a cause and therefore hath of it self an infinite necessitie in Being and in all that appertaynes thereunto Moreouer because infinite in existencie and Being all wisdome all power all perfection is in it and this immateriall intellectuall immoueable omnipotent all-commaundinge Creatour wee call God who as he doth vnspeakeablie exceede all so is he in like manner incomprehensible of all and liues eternallie in the height and fullnes of blisse comprehending aÌ„d enioying his owne substaÌ„ce which is the roote and fountaine of existencie the originall and vniuersall veritie infinite wayes infinite and a most pure and holy Goodnes vnbounded euery way 30. Heere the Atheist a man that intricates himself in Circles and infinities to denie that which he cannot auoid God will interrupt my discourse and except that all subordinate efficieÌ„t causes depeÌ„d not vppon any determinate thing because they may either ruÌ„ne the rounde or ascende euer without an end This fellowe lookes in tyme to begette his father aÌ„d exchang relatioÌ„s with him and to be AdaÌ„s great grandfather infinite tymes and as many times more Adams sonne But his ignorance is verie childish Each man hath a cause as I said aÌ„d therefore the whole nature or species hath a cause for if any had not he weare not of the same species or nature with the rest he weare not a pure man The whole collection or multitude therefore of men the verie nature and the species doth depend on some cause efficieÌ„t which likewise dependeth on an other or is independent and immoueable if independent and immoueable it hath Being by it self preciselie without any cause condition or contingencie what soeuer and therefore hath a pure vnlimited and so an infinite necessitie in Being and this is God If the

a part and distinct that such as reade our papers may knowe when one matter is ended or agreed vppon and doe not thrust other things in heere If you graunt it Saie so If you doe not speake directlie to this point in this place and of no other I will not heare of erring or not erring in fundamentalls or not fundamentalls I haue nothing to doe with that It shall haue a place a part I looke onelie which is the Church answearing to the description whether it be subiect to errour in any thing or be not whether it doth erre actuallie or euer hath actuallie bene in errour I meddle not here with that The thing described in Prophecie the substance of the thing the Church I looke for and haue found her by her proportion by her face it is not yours it is ours THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Wherin answeare is giuen to some exceptions made against the Vniuersalitie of the Church THe Arguments which you and your abotters make against the foresaid vniuersality of the Church S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 12. are answeared easily And whereas first as Donatists heretofore did allso you plead for your pouertie aÌ„d paucitie of adherentes that there are fewe chozen and the world full of fooles I confesse there are to many fooles indeede and haue bene euer if you consider the whole collection of all kinde of Heretickes together with Paganes and Atheistes the number whereof being infinite the world may be said to be full But what is this to the purpose since the Catholique Church notwithstanding spreds it selfe into all NatioÌ„s aÌ„d makes some of euery nation and those verie many also wise many being called by the Pastors by the Apostles by God to Christianitie froÌ„ all natioÌ„s amoÌ„g which many though they receaue the word and for a tyme doe well doe flinch in tyme of temptation and fall of before the end and so they be fooles too and with the foolish virgines be shut out of heaueÌ„ But yet notwithstanding all this there are in the Catholique Church some wise of all nations tongues and people more then can be numbred which infalliblie will gaine the crowne of glorie 56. An other exception you make against our Church because it doth not coÌ„municate with all Christians as with your coÌ„gregation for exaÌ„ple Whereunto I answeare that to the Churches vniuersalitie communion with Heretickes aÌ„d Schismatiques is not necessarie but coÌ„munion with or in all NatioÌ„s and this communion the RomaÌ„ Church with the rest adherent hath With Heretiques wee will not communicate and doe herein follow the instruction of our Sauiour and Sainct Paule And accordiÌ„glie the Church in former tymes would not communicate with Arians Eunomians Nestorians or with Armenians GreciaÌ„s AethiopiaÌ„s or others at such tyme as they were in errour Neither was this communion necessarie to the vniuersalitie of the Church as I said before because it is not necessarie that it communicate with all persones in the world but with all Nations Nor it is necessarie that the Churches communion be at once in all nations and so continue but that in the compasse of her tyme it be in all And thus is our Religion Catholique which hath bene in all Nations one tyme or other that hetherto haue bene Christian which can be truelie said of noe other and by her great power of conuerting Nations is going on to possesse the rest of the Nations that are on earth 56. Thirdly you except against the generalitie of some Councelles wheruÌ„to the Greeke Church then deuided would not come But this is noe hindrance to the cause for to the generalitie of a Councell noe more can be required possiblie for persones them the presence and consent of the Bysshopes in communion with the Catholique Church since Catholique Pastors not heretiques are to be heard followed and obaied in matters of faith and religion These doe succeed in the promise made to the Apostles and their successors to the worldes end and in them is the whole teaching authoritie of the Church-present vnto the tyme wherin they are whether they be more or not so many as were some age before In particular to that of the Grecians I answeare that their coÌ„sent was not necessarie to the generalitie of the CouÌ„celles held in the tyme they liued in Schisme and Heresie and therefore without them the Councell was Oecumenicall for that Councell is Oecumenicall which doth include the authoritie of the preseÌ„t Catholique Church It is not requisite that all Bisshops which euer were should be raised againe to life to sitt in Councell nor that such as in after ages are to come should be borne afore their tyme to make a Councell generall neither is it necessarie to call in Heretiques of all sortes It is sufficieÌ„t to call the Bysshopes of the Catholique communion then liuinge when the Councell is to be held The Grecians in the tyme of their Schisme were not of your religion as you haue heard from their owne mouthes when you offered vnion and in your owne iudgment they held heresie as that is of the procession of the holie Ghost from the Father onelie They returned also to the communion of the Catholique Church as you may see in the Councell of Lions and Florence where East and west agreed in doctrine against your heresie and before their Schisme they had bene in the communion of the Church a thousand yeares wel neere Of Indians and Armenians you know by this what I will saie and it is not necessarie to runne ouer the same againe 57. A fourth exception is that all nations be not at one time in the Church because some are PagaÌ„ some Hereticke And hence would you make a maÌ„ haue a scruple in reciting that part of his Creed wherin he doth professe to beleeue the Catholique Church then existent when he saies his Creede Notwithstanding this obiectioÌ„ the Creed was said in the Apostles tyme by such as were in their visible coÌ„munion and must and will be said as long as the world endures and he that saieth it if he beleeues Gods word and promise may securely aÌ„d must beleeue that still there is a Catholique Church which Church hath communion with all NatioÌ„s though this communion in all the latitude be not existent at that tyme but some was before some is to follow after as the Church it selfe taken whollie is not existent all at one tyme but successiuelie to the worldes end it being the collectioÌ„ of all Catholiques which euer were are aÌ„d will be Orbis miratus est se factâ— esse Arianum Dial. con Lucif 58. A fift is made out of an exaggeration of Sainct Ieromes To the ground and occasion of the speach which was the act of the Bishops in the Councell I might aÌ„swer as S. Au. doth to the like ob made out of some words of S. Hilarius Quis nescit ilio tempore obscuris verbis multos parui sensus fuisse delusos vt putarent hoc credi ab Arianis

quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissÃ¨ simulatÃ¨ consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and coÌ„demned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither fâ— nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectioÌ„ it is weake for the Arians euer found opponeÌ„ts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more NatioÌ„s haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to IouiaÌ„ the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete PaÌ„philia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher loÌ„ge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amoÌ„gst theÌ„ all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitioÌ„s aÌ„d the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe coÌ„tradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of CouÌ„celles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions aÌ„d may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of coÌ„trouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with

manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that

had allwayes Gods Spirit in her hart and Gods word in her mouth which hath conuerted Nations condemned Heresies assembled Councelles maintained order administred Sacraments and bred Saincts To the Church described in the Scripture To the visible To the Catholique Church 119. It may be that your selfe by this tyme are wearie of your owne inuention to the end therefore I may giue you scope to interprete your selfe better then you haue done hetherto I will aske a question or two more and make and end Either it is sufficient to saluation to followe the instruction of the visible Church or no if it be not sufficient then God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for instruction for without a preacher men cannot beleeue as I haue tould you oft from S. Paul If it be sufficient then leaue vs to followe this instruction to be directed by this Church wee haue that wee looke for I haue prooued heretofore that the Church hath Gods words euer in her mouth and that she deliuereth true doctrine without errour fundamentall or other I demaund now whether the predestinate do beleeue this doctrine this religioÌ„ thus perpetuallie taught or not if they doe not they be not of the true Religion they be not the sheepe of Christ for his sheepe doe heare his voice Io. 10. they may be your predecessors they are not ours they are Saincts of your making but not Gods elect If they doe then this visible Church aÌ„d Gods predestinate are all of one ReligioÌ„ one faith one body mysticall they all make one Church Speake plainlie man the Religion which God maketh the Church to professe allwaies is it true or false if false how is it Gods instruction You haue profited sure exceedinglie by your Spirit if now you taxe God with false doctrine if it be true wee may followe it wee must followe it The predestinated people are they of this Religion thus professed or are they of an other if of an other Gal. 1. â— Cor. 16. I haue nothing to doe with them anathema anathema if they be of this Religion all is well 120. To conclud that the Church of God is one and visible and that the predestinate are in it hath bene the sense and faith of all the Catholique world who haue all hoped to be saued in this Church in the visible Church of God it hath bene the faith of all the auncient Fathers and Doctors of the Church who acknowledged themselues children of it and were directed by it it hath bene the faith of the Saincts and predestinate themselues who did here beleeue as wee doe and God hath by miracles and other wayes manifested their sanctitie vnto the world And finallie it is the sense of the Spirit of the Catholique Church which cannot erre in such a point as I haue prooued larglie and you in your grounds should confesse because the thing is fundamentall and therefore it is a signe of extraordinarie stupiditie or malice or both to stagger in it THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Two other arguments are answered 121. IF any of your arguments should escape vntouched you would bragge of their streingth and therefore I am glad I haue ouertaken other two before they gette out of my memorie The first is Whittak Rainolds That which may happeÌ„ to any one may happeÌ„ to all or to euerie one But to erre may happeÌ„ to any Church adde for ought you know for thus it did happeÌ„ to the Churches of Thiatira Corinth c. therefore it may happeÌ„ to euery one or to all aÌ„d so all at oÌ„ce may erre Thus you I haue some cause to thinke you haue a wide mouth suppose you caÌ„ thrust aÌ„ egge into it A clowne there might dispute in your forme aÌ„d moode thus That which may happeÌ„ to any one of the egges in your parish may happen to all or to euerie one but to be thrust into your mouth at once may happen to any one of those egges therefore it may happen to them all and then your mouth will be stopt Now if one mouthfull be not inough for your dinner you may fall next to the meate and eate it all euery bit for that which may happen to any bit may happeÌ„ to euery bit the clowne your Scholler would say and ofterwards at the same meale you might drinke all the drinke euery cupfull euery drop 122. Suppose all the men in England should cast the dice for a thousand pound with these conditioÌ„s that the first which threwe twelue with two dice should haue it and if none threwe twelue the monie should be yours To see faire play aÌ„d to doe you all the fauour wee can wee will suppose the dice to be iust aÌ„d no tricke vsed at all The first may throwe ames ace I suppose the least for your good but it is fiue to one he will not Yet admitt he doth It is fiue to one the second doth not yet admitt his cast be ames ace too for what chaÌ„ce might happen to the other might happen to him Thus I will run on till I come to twentie and surelie it is much that twentie one after another should haue the same cast and the dice exactlie iust It is not probable that it would hould on so to a hundred yet what might happen to any one might happen say you to euery one It is incredible it should goe on in the same chaÌ„ce to a thousand yet in your logicke this guggion must be swallowed after his fellowes But that it should run thorough them all it is not possible for then fortune would be constant and coÌ„tingencie would prooue to be a neeessity which no man will say who knowes what he saith yet this must downe your throate too for what may happen to any one may happen to euerie one that so in the end you may get to your selfe the thousand pound The like might happen if all the men that are in the world should cast the dice and should haue done so euer since dice were first inuented because what might happen to any one might as you say happen to euery one And when each had throwne he might die before you and coÌ„sequentlie all might doe so in your principles so you should be the onelie man a liue aÌ„d haue all their money too And thus much to let you see the weake forme of your argumeÌ„t which nothwithstaÌ„diÌ„g is one of the maine foundatioÌ„s where on your meÌ„ do build their doctrine of the fallibility of Gods Church 123. Now to the matter of the argument I answeare that allmighiie God is infinite and therfore none can hinder his designe or make frustrate his intention Wherfore since he hath decreed to keepe allwayes to the worlds end a Church on earth infallible in doctrine as I haue declared by the testimony of holy Scripture his prouidence will effect it and make it perseuere in what persons and what places he please Wee haue no reuelation thath the true faith shall perseuere allwayes in France or in

you beleeue not this how do you beleeue the Reall Presence how do you beleeue the words of Iesus Christ saying of the Sacrament in his haÌ„d this is my body and of the Chalice Mat. 26. v. 27.28 this is my bloode if that thing were his body theÌ„ was his body in the shape of breade and at once in diuers places If you say that thing was not his body you contradict him you do not reallie beleeue the presence to the signes I doe not say to your imagination but to the signes this reallie you beleeue not 34. As for your oppositions they are sent backe with this answere that nature indeede cannot effect those things they are out of the spheare of her actiuitie but the power of God is infinite and the things in them selues include no contradiction wherefore God can effect them And being grounded in his word wee beleeue them without more adoe Man is not able with his wit to discouer all the wayes of God or to comprehend the whole obiect of his power Our knowledge wee gather from those fewe things wee see or perceaue by some exteriour seÌ„se aÌ„d the perfection of allmightie God is infinitelie aboue all this He knoweth more then wee doe and being truth by nature cannot lie wherefore if he tell vs any thing though wee vnderstand it not wee must beleeue it Faith is an argumeÌ„t of things not appearing Heb. 11. that in the Deitie be three persons each distinct reallie from the other two yet all reallie the same God is a greate mysterie it is obscure our vnderstanding cannot reach it but faith giuing creditte vnto God who saith it is so doth beleeue it that our Sauiour is the secoÌ„d person in this holie Trinitie coÌ„substaÌ„tiall to God the Father is a Mysterie which nature wonders at yet faith beleeues this too because God who cannot deceaue or be deceaued doth auouch it Wee trust his knowledge and take his word Nature is Gods worke she hath not the perfection of her maker and therefore must not compare and equall her selfe with him in vnderstanding or cast an imputation of Errour on all that is not within the circuite of her acquaintaince God knowes more then she doth and therefore she may learne Schollers that are ingenuouse beleeue their Masters aÌ„d so come to knowledge whereas those who beleeue nothing are euer rude and vnlearned A Scholler heareth his Master say the SuÌ„ne is bigger then the Earth and beleeuing falls to learne the demonstration The clowne takes measure of the obiect with his eies Stellat primae magnitudinis ceÌ„ties septuagies maiores terrÃ¢ asseruÌ„t Astronomi and esteeming it no bigger then the Cheese he cutte yesterdaie when he came from plough will not beleeue the philosophers nor the Mathematicians nor all the bookes in the world before his owne eies not he no that he won not Wee are in the Schoole of Religion our Professors and Instructors are the Pastors vnder our great Master Iesus Christ who cleerly doth see the truth of all he doth auouch You rudely take measure of things as in your sillie imagination they appeare making sensible things there or the short knowledge you haue of them the rule and compasse of all Being so denying in effect that God is able to doe any thing further then you can direct him as if in your heade were as much Art as God hath and your knowledge the full compasse and direction of Gods omnipotence 35. But what is the thing you stumble at Substance of it selfe is not determined to place it hath this determinatioÌ„ by accidents by Quantitie Localitie Vbication If God bestowe on it supernaturallie two Sacramentall Vbications at once it is at once in two places Sacramentallie if a thousand it is in a thousand places SacrameÌ„tall Existencie whatsoeuer it be called as VbicatioÌ„ Presence or by what other name you will is an Accident and this Accident is the formall reason or cause of being present vnder the dimensioÌ„s in the roome of Breade It is supernaturall to the body and God hath power to produce many of these at once 36. You replie that the very same thing cannot without contradiction be at once present in many dimensions without being deuided This is false the thing may haue indiuiduation or vnitie in it selfe and by it selfe and yet be in many dimensioÌ„s too The soule of man is one and indiuisible and yet in the dimensions of all the members of the body That which is in the heade is in the feete not a peece for the soule hath no peeces it is indiuisible but it is all in each part God is heere and in heauen too and yet not deuided though betwixt this place and heauen there be many other things 37. Againe you replie that the same bodie cannot be at once in many mouthes But why not if it be at once in many dimensions The foule an indiuisible thing is naturallie at once in many members it is at once in the heade hands feete fingers and toes and in each member all aÌ„d this without any contradictioÌ„ or diuision why theÌ„ may not God whose power is infinite supernaturallie put one and the same Bodie at once in many mouthes It is no contradiction He may doe it Measure not his power by your witte The thing may be aboue your conceipt no meruaile it is supernaturall The existence of the sowle in many members all is naturall Tell me first how this is done It is in the heade and in the feete yet hath no distance in it selfe It is in manie fingers yet one It is in euerie part of an extended bodie and yet not extended it is in the hart and in the sides in the tongue and in the mouth that is round aboute it it is in the heade that doth compasse the braine and it is within the braine all vnles in your braine peraduenture it be not Shall I now argue out of this that it is within and without and round aboute it selfe if I meant to trouble an vnlearned reader and turne his braine as you doe I would When you haue made him vnderstaÌ„d these things touching the naturall existence of his sowle he will be able to answere all that you can saie touching the supernaturall existence of the bodie of Iesus Christ in many mouthes and if he doth not yet vnderstand that being naturall no maruaile if he doth not vnderstand this Mysterie it being supernaturall 38. The other peece of your difficultie is that a bodie is naturallie extended and a maÌ„s bodie fills a greate place therefore it cannot be within that little roome I answere that substance of it selfe fills no place but by an Accident called Situall extension or Localitie as by it selfe it is not visible but by aÌ„ AccideÌ„t Colour These AccideÌ„ts are distinct from the Substance they are not Substance If God take away the Colour or will not let it mooue the eie the substance is not seene if God take away the Localitie

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