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religion_n	england_n	king_n	queen_n	3,439	5	6.9536	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63214	The tryals and condemnation of Thomas White alias Whitebread, provincial of the Jesuits in England, William Harcourt, pretended rector of ]ondon, John Fenwick,procurator for the Jesuits in England, John Gavan alias Gawen, and Anthony Turner, all Jesuits and priests; for high treason: in conspiring the death of the King, the subversion of the government, and Protestant religion. At the Sessions in the Old-Bailey for London and Middlesex, on Friday and Saturday, being the 13th and 14th of June, 1679. Published by authority.	Whitbread, Thomas, 1618-1679, defendant.; Barrow, William, 1610-1679, defendant.; Caldwell, John, 1628-1679, defendant.; Gawen, John, 1640-1679, defendant.; Turner, Anthony, 1628 or 9-1679, defendant.; Corker, James Maurus, 1636-1715, defendant.	1679 (1679)	Wing T2248; ESTC R219768	109,846	92

THE TRYALS AND Condemnation OF THOMAS WHITE alias WHITEBREAD Provincial of the Jesuits in England WILLIAM HARCOURT Pretended Rector of London JOHN FENWICK Procurator for the Jesuits in England JOHN GAVAN alias GAWEN And ANTHONY TURNER All JESUITS and PRIESTS FOR HIGH TREASON IN Conspiring the Death of the KING The SUBVERSION of the Government and Protestant Religion At the Sessions in the Old-Bailey for LONDON and MIDDLESEX on Friday and Saturday being the 13 th and 14 th of June 1679. Published by Authority Dublin Reprinted 1679. THE TRYALS c. On Friday the 13th of June 1679 at the Sessions-House in the Old-Bayley the Court being met at which all the Judges of England were present Proclamation was made of Silence and Attention whilst the King's Commission of Oyer and Terminer and of Gaol-Delivery were openly read and after the usual Proclamation of attendance upon the Sessions the Court proceeded to call the Jurys impannelled and to the Tryals of the Prisoners thus Cl. of Cr. SEt Thomas Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker to the Bar Cap. Richardson They are all on Cl. of Cr. Thomas White alias Whitebread Hold up thy hand John Fenwick Hold up thy hand William Harcourt alias Harrison Hold up thy hand John Gavan Hold up thy hand Anthony Turner Hold up thy hand James Corker Hold up thy Hand which they all severally did And James Corker presented a Petition to the Court to this effect That about 8 moneths since the Petition Was committed for refusing to take the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy that he had lately received notice to prepare himself for his Tryal against this present day but that the same was afterwards contradicted and that yesterday a Gentleman informed him from the Attorney General that a Bill was found against him of High treason and that he was to prepare himself for his Tryal thereupon accordingly and forasmuch as the Petitioner is altogether ignorant of the matters charged upon him in the same and by reason thereof is absolutely surprised and unprepared for his defence and diverse Gaol-deliverys having been held since his first Commitment and he never called to his Tryal he doth humbly beseech their Honours that he may not be Tried till the next Sessions and that in the mean time he may have Copies of such informations as are given in against him L. C. J. Mr. Corker have you really any witnesses without whom you cannot make your Defence Corker No my Lord I have none L. C. J. You do not understand my Question do you want any witnesses now that you may have another time Corker I am a stranger to the things charged upon me L. C. J. Can you not tell whether you have any witnesses or no the matter is this both for you and all the rest of you that there may be no exception you are upon the Trial of your lives and we upon our Oaths and therefore I speak it if so be you have any witnesses because you pretend you are surprised if you have really any whereby you can make a better defence for your selves then now the Court will incline to your request but if you have not then 't is in vain to tarry Corker My Lord I verily believe I shall have Witnesses L. C. J. As for the copy of the Indictment it is never granted to any persons and therefore must not be to you L. C. J. N. You must give us clear satisfaction that you are real in your pretences and must give us the names of your witnesses where they live and let us know what they can say for you that we may be satisfied for such a general alligation as this any man living may make Mr. Recorder He was one of the ten that was appointed by the Council to be tried L. C. J. Why you had notice a week ago Corker But it was contradicted the next day Capt. Richardson I heard Mr. Clare say that he should not be tried then Mr. Att. Gen. He had notice together with the rest but he was not in the first Order of Council for the Trial of these persons he sent to the Clerk to know who were to be tried and his name was left out and so understood he was not to be tryed On Tuesday last I moved that he might be put into the Order and so he was and now there is an Order of Council for it but he had notice a week ago as well as the rest Capt. Richardson I gave them notice that all were to prepare for their Tryal as this day and in order to that I went to the Council to see what Order was taken about it and the Clerk shewed me their names amongst which Corker was left out and I told him Corker had notice of Trial and therefore I desired I might have an Order for him too they told me that there was no Order taken about him Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord I would have all the Gentlemen have all the fair play in the world therefore if he can satisfie your Lordship that he can have any Witnesses that he hath not now I am content his Tryal should stay to another time L. C. J. You shall hear the Indictment read and there you will know what sort of Treason it is you are charged with and after that you will make your answer whether you have any witnesses Mr. Recorder My Lord it will be necessary that I give your Lordship an account of one thing On Saturday night there came a Gentlewoman to me on the behalf of all the Prisoners and said there were some witnesses that she was under apprehension would not appear for the prisoners unless they had some order her name she told me was Ireland and she came in the name of all the prisoners she said I told her if she would bring me a Note of the witnesses names they did desire they should have all the assistanec the Court could give them for the getting of their Witnesses thi● day but since that time I never heard of the Gentlewoman or from the Prisoners L. C. J. Mr. Corker you will do well to take notice what you are charged withall and afterwards tell us if there are any witnesses that can say any thing for your defence at your Tryal for those matters Clerk of Cr. You stand indicted by the names of Thomas White in the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Clerk otherwise called Thomas Whitebread of the same Parish and County Clerk John Fenwick of the same Parish and County Clerk William Harcourt of the same Parish and County Clerk otherwise called William Harrison of the same Parish and County Clerk John Gavan of the same Parish and county Clerk Anthony Turner of the same Parish and County Clerk and James Corker of the same Parish and county Clerk For that you as false Traitors against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince Charles the Second

by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. your Supream and Natural Lord not having the fear of God in your hearts nor weighing the Duty of your Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the Devil the cordial love true due and natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear wholly withdrawing and devising and with all your strength intending the peace and common tranquility of this Realm to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England used and by the Law established to overthrow and the Government of this Realm to subvert and Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial love and true and due obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear utterly to withdraw put out and extinguish and our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put on the four and twentieth day of April in the thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord King Charles the second at the parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid You the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker with diverse other false Traitors subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown falsly subtilly advisedly maliciously and traiterously did purpose compass imagine and intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Soveraign Lord the King of his Kingly State Title Power and Government of his said Kingdom of England utterly to deprive depose cast down and disinherit him our said Soveraign Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put and the Government of this Kingdom of England the sincere Religion of God within the same rightly by the Laws of the same established at your will pleasure to change alter and the State of this whole Kingdom of England through all its parts well instituted ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War within this Kingdom of England against our said Soveraign Lord the King to levy And to accomplish and fulfil your said most wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations purposes You the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown the said four and twentieth day of April with Force and Arms c. in the Parish aforesaid and County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly advisedly devillishly and traiterously did assemble unite and gather your selves together and then and there falsly maliciously subtilly advisedly devillishly and traiterously did consult consent and agree our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Religion of this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same established to the Superstition of the Romish Church to change and alter and the Government of this Kingdom of England to subvert and that one Thomas Pickering and one John Grove should kill and murder our said Soveraign Lord the King and that you the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner James Corker and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown should therefore say celebrate and perform a certain number of Masses then and there amongst your selves agreed on for the soul of the said Thomas Pickering and for that cause should pay to the said John Grove a certain sum if money then and there amongst your selves agreed on and that you the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt otherwise Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker and other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown in further prosecution of the Treasons and traiterous Consultations and Agreements aforesaid afterwards the said four and twentieth day of April at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly subtilly advisedly maliciously devillishly and traiterously did severally each to the other engage your selves and upon the Sacrament traiterously swear and promise to conceal and not to divulge the said most wicked Treasons and traiterous compassings consultations and purposes aforesaid amongst your selves had traiterously to kill and murder our said Soveraign Lord the King and to introduce the Romish Religion within this Kingdom of England and the true reformed Religion within this Realm rightly and by the Laws of the same established to alter and changes and that you the said Thomas White otherwise Whitebread John Fenwick William Harcourt alias Harrison John Gavan Anthony Turner and James Corker and other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown in further prosecution of your said Treasons and traiterous intentions and agreements aforesaid afterwards the said four and twentieth day of April at the Parish aforesaid and County aforesaid falsly subtilly advisedly maliciously devillishly and traiterously did prepare perswade excite abet comfort and counsel four other persons to the Jurors unknown subjects of our said Soueraign Lord the King traiterously our said Soveraign Lord the King to kill and murder against the Duty of your Allegiance against the Peace of our Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the form of the Statute in that Case made and provided How sayst thou Thomas White alias Whitebread art thou guilty of this High Treason whereof thou standest indicted or not guilty Whitebread My Lord I desire to speak one word I am advised by Council and I may and ought to represent it to this Court for not only my own life but the lives of others of his Majesties Subjects are concerned in it That upon the 17 th of December last I was tryed upon the same Indictment the Jury was impannell'd and called I put my self into the hands of the Jury and the Evidence was brought in and examin'd particularly against me and was found insufficient so that the Jury was dismissed without any Verdict I humbly submit my self to your Lordships and this noble Court whether I may not have Counsel in this point of Law to advise me whether I may and ought to plead again the second time for according to Law I am informed no man can be put in jeopardy of his Life the second time for the same cause Lord Ch. Just You say well Mr. Whitebread Whitebread I speak it not for my sake only but the sake of the whole Nation no man should be tried twice for the same cause by the same reason a man

Grove should Murther the King and that therefore Whitebread and the rest of the Persons Indicted should say a Number of M●sses for the Soul of Pickering And Grove for this piece of service was to have a Sum of Money And the Indictment says further that these persons did take the Sacrament to commit this Treason with more secrecy and that they did likewise Prepare Excite Abet and Counsel Four other unknown Persons to kill the King at Windsor All these Facts are said to be done Advisedly Maliciously Traiterously and Devilishly and against their Allegiance to the King To this they have pleaded Not Guilty if the Kings Evidence prove it you are to find it so And then Sir Creswell Levinz one of the King 's Learned Council in the Law proved the charge thus Sir Cr. Levinz May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury Th●se Prisoners at the 〈◊〉 by Persuasion Papists by Order and D●●●●● th●● are all Priests By the Law of the Land viz By a Statute made the 27th of Eliz. They are all Guilty of Treason for being Priests and they might be Tryed as such and ought todye for it but that is not the Fact that they are Charged with nor will they have the satisfaction to●ay that they suffer for their Religion No they are charged with a Treason of a blacker and darker Nature And tho I must tell you that it is now almost 100 years ago since that Statute was made against Priests coming into England Yet Examples have been very rare that any of this sort of Men have dyed for their Religion within that Queens time or any of her Successors yet they have dyed upon worse accompts and upon such accompts as they are now brought to this Bar for Such is the difference between their Religion and Ours they have been suffered to live here under a Law by which they ought to dye They kill the Protestants by Thousands without Law or Justice witness their Bloody doing at Mirendol Their Massacre as Paris Their Barbarous cruelty in Ireland since the year 1640. And those in Piedmont since 1650. But these are not the crimes they are charged with they are not accused for their Religion but for the blackest and darkest Treason that men can be charged with They are charged with an endeavour to Murder the King under whose protection they lived This murther of the King hath been carried on in the Design of it with all the malice and Resolution that can be from the first time that we can give you an account of it which was the 24th of April 1678. When these persons and several others did first Assemble about other matters of their own and among the rest to Murther the King there they came to Resolution that it should be done and persons were appointed to do it these were Grove and Pickering who have been Executed for it They were to kill the King in St. Jame's Park but it pleased God that the Flint of the Pistol failed to which we are more beholding than to them that he escaped that time They were not satisfiyd with that but they send down Four Butchers to murther him at Windsor who being disappointed they sent down Others after that to Murther him at New-Market and when all these failed they had Recourse to that Treacherous and Vnmanly way of Poysoning him and hired one so to do and they did not only intend to Murther the King but to make it good by force when they had done They intended to raise an Army they had got Commissions to several persons in the Kingdom to command these Forces They designed to raise 50000 men to maintain the Injustice when then they had done it And that was not all they had a recourse to Forreign assistance and depended upon Forreign succours if they were not made good at home Gentlemen they have been disappointed in all these things they had an intention further as I find it in my brief to make a general Massacre of all Protestants here A thing that they have done and we have heard of abroad but thanks be to God we never knew it Experimentally at home And I hope God that hath preserved us hitherto will preserve us still The mercy these Men have met with in being suffered to live under the danger of the Statute by which they might have justly dyed hath not prevailed upon or bettered them at all but been turned into Monstrous Ingratitude and made them more desperate than other people would have been Gentlemen when all this is opened I must tell you if th●se Persons be innocent God forbid they should suffer but if they be Guilty surely they are not fit to live among Men And truly if they be Guilty they do not only deserve to dye but to dye a more Cruel and miserable death then either the mercy of our Prince or the moderation of our Laws hath provided for such Offenders I shall detain you no longer but will call the Witnesses and then you shall Judg whether they be Guilty or not And we begin with Mr. Oates Who was Sworn Sir Cr. Levinz Pray what can you say to these Gentlemen begin with Mr. 〈…〉 Lord Ch. Just Mr. Oates apply your Evidence as distinctly as you can to one Person at first unless where the matter will take in all or more then one of them Dr. Oates My Lord I have Evidence I desire may be called in I shall have occasion to use them Gavan It may be inconvenint He may instruct his Witnesses Lord Ch. Just North. No he shall not for we will take care of that But name your Witnesses Dr. Oates There is Sir Richard Barker Mr. Walter a Minister Mrs. Mayo Philip Page Mr. William Smith and one Mr. Clay Mr. Butler Mrs. Sarah Ives Mr. Just Atkins Take a Note of their Names and send for them Lord Ch. Just Now Mr. Oates go on with your Evidence And when there is occasion to make use of these persons they shall be call'd Dr. Oates The prisoner at the Bar Mr. Whitebread was made constituted Provincial so as it was publickly known to us in the month of December last was 12 month he did Order by Vertue of his Authority one Father George Conyers to preach in the Sodality of the English Seminary on the Holyday which they call St. Thomas of Canterbury i. e. Thomas of Beckets day in which there was Order given that Mr. Conyers should Preach assert this Doctrine That the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy were Heretical Antichristian Devillish accordingly this Order was Executted and the Sermon preached Mr. Whitebread in the month of January wrote Letters or at least-wise in the beginning of February I will not be positive as to the time because it does not occur to my memory to St. Omers concerning the State of Ireland of which he had an accompt from Arch-bishop Talbot who wrote him word that there were several Thousands of Irish that were ready

another And as for Mr. Fenwicke I never heard him give in any Answer but I have seen Fenwick at the Consult there L. C. J. Have they ever told you any thing concerning the Killing of the King Mr. Bedloe Whitebread told Coleman at Mr. Harcourt's Chamber the manner offending the four Russians to Windsor about September Harcourt I never saw him twice in all my life before Mr. Belwood Do you know of any Reward those Russians were to have Mr. Bedloe Yes I saw Harcourt take the money out of a cabinet I think it was fourscore or One hundred pounds the sum I don 't well remember Harcourt paid them the money by Mr. Coleman's order and gave the messenger a Guiney from Mr. Coleman to drink his Health Mr. Coleman was gone a little before I came in and so I could not know that Coleman gave it but he said so Sir Chr. Levins What was Pickring and Grove to have Mr. Bedloe Grove was to have 1500 l. and a Promise of the Favor of the Lords 1500 l. was the Sum appointed at Mr. Harcourts chamber and doubtless in several other places but there I heard it from Mr. Whitebread and Prichard and le Faire Kaines and Pickering was to have a number of masses I can't tell exactly how many but they were so many as at 12 d. a mass would amount to be equal to Mr. Grove Mr. Belwood Pray Sir what was that for M. Bedloe For killing the King But Pickering had been disciplined before and received a Check from the Superiors because he had been negligent and slipt many opportunities One time the Flint of his Pistol was loose another time there was no Powder in the Pan another time he had charged with all Bullets and no Powder Lord Chief Justice Did you see Harcourt deliver the Guiney for the Expedition of the Windsor Business Mr. Bedloe Yes my Lord as from Coleman to drink his Health Mr. Belwood Pray was either Whitebread or Fenwick knowing of the Agreement when it was spoken of Mr. Bedloe I have seen Fenwick at Harcourts and Whitebreads chamber when it was spoken of they were all of one Opinion they had decreed it I never saw Whitebread but twice at Harcourts chamber where one time was Harcourt himself at another time was Pritchard and le Faire and others at which time Sir George Wakemans Business was spoken of and because he would not accept the 10000 l. 15000 l. was agreed to be given him and upon Sir George's Tryal I shall let you know where he had the money too but I desire to be excused at present I shall speak it to morrow Lord Chief Justice What did they consult there Mr. Bedloe They were consulting how it should be done and what should be done if they did not do it Then Ireland proposed that the most certain way was to do it at his morning walks in Newmarket Fenwick was to go and with him went Grove Pickering and Coniers I heard seven or eight of them were to go Lord Chief Baron What say you to Turner Mr. Bedloe Of Mr. Turner I know nothing but what I have heard others say Lord Chief Baron What say you to Gavan Mr. Bedloe I know nothing of him but only I have heard Mr. Harcourt say he hath been a great manager of this Business Lord Chief Justice That is nothing to the purpose what others say Mr. Bedloe Mr. Harcourt is no stranger to my bringing of Pacquets and Portmantles over to him from beyond the Seas Harcourt He never brought but one in all his life-time Mr. Bedloe What Did I never bring but one Pacquet Have not I brought divers and divers Portmantles Harcourt You never brought a Portmantle in your life Mr. Bedloe I have brought divers Harcourt You know I never saw you but twice in my life before to day and when I met with you at the Privy Council Mr. Bedloe My Lord the Tria●s have been so put off that I could never get all my Witnesses together but I have 7 or 8 of my Witnesses that are out of Town that would make this very clear My Lord there was never a Pacquet of letrers that I brought over to Mr. Harcourt but did contain in it a Design of the Subversion of the Government and it must be more than two Pacquets that I have brought over for I have brought letters from Watton and letters from St. Omers and letters from Bruges and from Paris and from Valledolid and Sallamanca and all these letters contained in them the management of this Plot how far they had proceeded beyond Sea and Answers how far they had proceeded in England from him and to them to and again from time to time in carrying on the Design of Subverting the Government and altering the Religion wherein was given an account of the Army and Forces that were to be raised both here and beyond Sea what Contributions were made or expected at home or abroad all was lodged in Mr. Harcourts hands at least wise an account of the greatest rare And I have been sent to Mr. Langhorn with Papers from Harcout about this Affair to Register them and of that I shall give you an account upon Mr. Langhorns Tryal Lord Chief Justice Well now ask him what you will Whitebread Sir I desire to ask you one Question Mr. Bedloe I desire it may be asked the Court. Whitebread I desire to ask him whether he was a Lieutenant in Flanders or no Mr. Bedloe Yes I was Whitebread Of Horse or Foot Mr. Bedloe Of Foot Whitebread Take notice there is no such Officer of Foot in all Flanders Mr. Bedloe I was then in the Regiment of the Prince of Freizland Whitebread There are no Lieutenants in all the Flanders Companies only Captains and Alfaras Mr. Bedloe My Lord I had a Commission and I have a Commission to be so and I desire I may send for it Lord Chief Justice It is no very material thing as soon as it comes they shall see your Commission Harcourt You say you have had Papers from me and been very familiar with me Pray how can this be when as I did declare before the Lords in Council that was the third time I ever saw your face The first time he came to me he brought letters from Dunkirk five years ago when I opened them I found them directed to other persons and to them I sent them my name being only used in the outside Cover it seems upon that confidence that he had in me at that time not long after he came to my chamber told me he had lately become a Roman Catholick and by that means had lost his Friends and that he then was in want and unless I did assi●t him it would be very hard with him though his Father disserted him yet he had some Friends whom he expected would do something for him and then I will repay you Lord Chief Justice When was this Harcourt The second time that I ever saw him

my self with all my heart and soul haveing used all the remedies I can I have cleared my self as to the main day the 24th of April whereon all the pretended Plot lies And I 'le bring Witnesses that shall swear I was not in London in August and if my eternal Salvation lay upon it I could averr I was not in London and I wish I may be made an example of justice before all the world in the sight of God I speak it if I be not the most innocent person in the world And my Lord seeing there is only his Oath for it and my denial I have onely one demand I don't know whether it be not an extravagant one or no if it be I don't desire to have it granted L. C. J. What is that Demand Gaven You know that in the beginning of the Church this learned and just Court must needs know that that for one thousand years together it was a custom and grew to a constant law for the Tryal of persons accused of any capital Offence where there was onely the accusers Oath and the Accused's denial for the prisoner to put himself upon the Tryal of Ordeal to evidence his own Innocencie L. C. J. North We have no such law now L. C. J. You are very fanciful Mr. Gaven you believe that your cunning in asking such a thing will take much with the auditory but this is onely an artificial Varnish You may do this with hopes of haveing it take with those that are Roman Catholicks who are so superstitious as to believe Innocency upon such desires but we have a plain way of understanding here in England and that helpt very much by the Protestant Religion so that there is scarce any Artifice big enough to impose upon us You ask a thing that sounds much of a pretence to innocencie and that it would be a mighty suffering if you should miscarry because you ask that you know you can't have Our Eyes and our understandings are lest us though you do not leave their Understannings to your Proselytes but you are mistaken if you think to impose that upon us that you do upon them and you do so impose upon them But I 'll tell you there is scarce any man with us that can be a Papist for you cannot deceive and gull us as you have done all that you have perverted to your way Gaven Is it any harm my Lord to ask whether I might not be so tried L. C. J. North look you here Mr. Gaven the time is far spent if you have any thing to say we will hear you if you have any witnesses call them and we will examine them but if not the other Prisoners must be admitted to make their defence as well as you Gaven All these six can prove that I was at Wolverhampton the last week in July Then another Witness stood up for him Gaven Where was I in July Witness I cannot speak to all July but my Lord I can declare that Mr. Gaven was in Staffordshire the last week of July every day I am confident L. C. J. Where was the first three weeks in July Witness I cannot speak as to that but in the last week in July he came to an apartment of an house that I lived in L. C. J. Cook you Mr. Gaven you see what this Evidence is she says that you were in Staffordshire the last week in July for you had an apartment in the house she lived in Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July last 2 Witness My Lord I saw him my self at the latter end of July for very many days for he was in a Room of the house that I lived in I am sure most of the last week L. C. J. Where was he the last fortnight 2 Witness I am confident I saw him all the last fortnight but I cannot be positive L. C. J. Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July 3. Witness My Lord I lived in the same Town with him and I do not remember that he was out all July but the last week he was in our house Lord Chief Just Well call another Who stood up Lord Chief Just Where was Mr. Gaven in July last 4 Witness He was in July last the last week in a part of our house Lord Chief Just So then he came home from London the 23 th or 24 th of July Well Mr. Gaven have you any more Witnesses to any other purpose for here are enough to this Gaven No my Lord. Lord Chief Just Mr. Whitebread have you any Witnesses to call Wh My Lord I have only this and I desire to be heard in this point to prove that Mr. Oats was mistaken in his Evidence that he gave at the last Trial against Mr. Ireland L C. J Look you I must break in upon you you have been told so often all of you have been told it and yet you are upon the former Trials again You are now upon your trial for your life if you could have disproved any thing that he said at a former trial you should have taken a legal way and convicted him of perjury but now to charge him with a printed Paper is not fair You must speak to what he says now Whitebread He says the same now But all that I say is this If he be not honest he can be witness in no case I suppose if any one can prove him not Probus Testis his Testimony is not to be received in any case Lord Chief Just But how will you prove that Come on I 'le teach you a little 〈…〉 ●ill come to contradict a Witness you ought to do it in a matter which is the present debate here for if you would convict him of any thing that he said in Irelands Trial we must try Irelands Cause over again But if you will say any thing against what he says now do Whitebread That which I would alledg is this If he be convicted of perjury in one case he is not to be believed in another Lord Chief Just You say right if he be convicted Whitebread He is not only then an incompetent Witness for he cannot be said to be probus testis but he is improbus Now this is that I can prove Mr. Just Pemberton Nay you must shew it by a Record Lord Chief Just You cannot have so little understanding you that have been and were to be so great a man among them had been Provincial and was to have been somewhat else I have told you already that to prove him to be a man that hath no faith in him he must be convicted You must have indicted him and convicted him of the thing wherein he did commit perjury and then he had been prepared to justifie himself But shall you come now and at this your Trial and prove what he said at Staleys Trial and Colemans Trial and Irelands Trial And must we examine what matters have