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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A56668 A further continuation and defence, or, A third part of the friendly debate by the same author.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist Part 3. Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707. 1670 (1670) Wing P805; ESTC R2050 207,217 458

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of your own party to the very skie to magnifie their gifts their zeal their sincerity their self-denial their tenderness of Conscience their pains taking together with their sufferings though never so small And on the other side to disparage ours or at the best to speak very coldly of them though never so pious and learned nay to shake your heads sometimes and lament their Ignorance in the mystery of Christ the meanness of their spiritual gifts the formality of their pravers their unedifying preaching and as it is to be feared their straining Conscience to comply with the times N. C. Pray let 's have no more of this C. Why may I not tell you a few other Devices that have been in use to win and keep your Proselytes As to brag of your numbers to spread stories and lyes by your Agents and correspondents from one end of the land to the other to fill every Country with the very same tales to possess the people against the writings of those of our way to give glorious titles to your own Books to cry up your sufferings as if they were for the cause of Christ to call all things you do not like I dolatry Antichristianisme Popery and such like odions and frightful names nay such hath been the tenderness of some of your hearts as to threaten your poor neighbours they shall have no work at least to deny to imploy them unless they will come to your meetings N. C. Now you calumniate to purpose C. It was a thing notorious in the late times as Mr. Edwards assures us and I have cause to think this evil humour is not spent but rather encreased But be that as it will you have a number of far more efficacious Arts then this As to vaunt of the power of your preaching of the glorious appearance of God among you and of the multitude of Converts to you to bespatter all that oppose you to perswade the people it was good livings that made so many turn Conformists and that they have lost their gifts and are much decreased in their graces at least you have thought good to terrifie them and bid them take heed for they have lost the prayers of thousands But if any adventure to write against you wo be to them Whatsoever they were before immediately they become the enemies of God and all goodness The people are told that they strike at the power of godliness through your sides and that they reproach Religion when they reprove your Superstition Every reprehension is called railing and hatred to the people of God and whatsoever fault they find it is done on purpose you say to bring all godliness into contempt In short to suppress you is to suppress the Spirit and but to speak against your affected language is to be desperately profane for who ever saw the beauty of Sion and the glory of the Lord filling the Tabernacle but in your Congregations Let any man go about to contradict this it is but pouring out half a dozen Scriptures against him nothing to the purpose and he is confuted nay one word will do the work and he shall be thought to write rarely and to come off like an Angel who can but say The Lord rebuke thee N. C. You had as good hold your peace for I beleive nothing that you say C. I can prove in every particular by true and faithful histories that this hath been the humour of your Sect. N. C. Save your self the labour I have no time nor list to hear you C. Nor to read good Books but only to babble as your Answerer doth out of your own head Did you never see a little Book called A wise and moderate Discourse concerning Church Affairs N. C. No. C. It was Printed in the beginning of our Warrs 1641. And I find it since put among my Lord Bacons Works there you may find several of these things noted First saith he * Speaking of the Oppugaers of the present Ecclesiastical Government they have appropriated to themselves the name of zealous and sincere and reformers as if all others were cold minglers of holy things profane men and friends to abuses Nay if a man be indued with great vertues and fruitful in good works yet if he coneurre not fully with them he is called in derogation a civil and moral man and compared to Socrates or some Heathen Philosopher Just contrary to St. John who would have called such a man Religious and told such as many of them that h● vainly boasts of loving God whom he hath not seen who loves not his neighbour whom he hath seen St. James also saith that this is true Religion to visit the Father less and the Widdow So as that which is but Philosophical and moral with them is in the phrase of the Apostle true Religion and Christianity And as in affections they challenge the said virtue of zeal and the rest so in knowledge they attribute 〈◊〉 themselves light and perfection The Church of England in King Edwards daies wa● but in the swadling cloaths or in the Cradle in Queen Elizabeths time but in it infancy and childhood The Bishops h● somewhat of the Day break but the M●turity and fulness of light is reserved fo● themselves And as they consure virtu●● men by the names of Civil and Moral 〈◊〉 those who are truly and godly wise a● discern the vanity of their Assertions they term Politicians and say their Wisedome is but carnal and savouring of mans Brain And in like manner if a preacher speak with care and meditation ordering his matter distinctly and inforcing it with strong proofs and warrants they censure it as a form of preaching not becomming the simplicity of the Gospel and refer it to the reprehension of St. Paul speaking of the enticing words of mans wisdome You may read there a great deal more to the same purpose if you have a mind to see your own picture But nothing methinks is more memorable then the blind rage and fury which the discovery of a most impious cheat excited in some of your predecessors hearts There was a young Preacher pretended to a power of Casting out Devils which he began to assume in the year 1586. and more openly professed 1597. This made a great noise of glory lights lamps and shining beams which now appeared in the work a Discovery of the fraudulent practices of John Darrel c. A● 1599. p. 19. It was given out to be a marvel●us work a mighty work of the Lord Jesas which all that loved him in sincerity must be careful to publish a matter of as great consequence and as profitable to all that sincerely professed the Gospel as ever any was since the restoring it amongst us b Ib. p. 16. And though first her Majesties Judges and then her commissioners in causes Ecclesiastical found by the free confession of the party said to be dispossessed that it was a meer cheat and a wicked combination to abuse the
Army So some of his Friends as I understand told him and would have restrained him as Sancho laboured to do his Master from making such a desperate assault upon such harmless things but nothing could withhold him Away he flings and hunts up and down as Don Quixote did among the Sheep saying in great heat Where art thou proud Alifamfaron where art thou O have I found thee come to me thou proud Wretch for I am but one Knight alone who desire to prove my force with thee man to man and deprive thee of thy life in revenge of the wrongs thou hast done to the N. C. And just as he was thinking to chastise his Pride he fancied himself transform'd into an Angel and Messenger from Heaven f P. 201. to give the Villain such buffets as he thinks he will remember all the days of his life N. C. You said he would take away his life Pray make an end of this idle tale C. You must know he was so merciful as not to kill him provided he would submit to this condition to go to W. B. as Don. Q. resolved to enjoyn the conquered Caraculiamtro to go to his Dulcinea and falling on his knees with an humble and submissive voice ask forgiveness g Pag. 41. and say I am that furious Pagan the destroyer of Religion the rooter out of Practical Piety whom the never too much praised Knight Don Philogathus hath overcome in single combate and hath commanded me to present my self before your greatness that it may please your Highness to dispose of me according to your liking This being done he tells him they will shake hands as the Lawyers do after they have fought at the barr and say how do you Brother I hope there is no hurt done but all is well again h Pag. 290 291. N. C. It 's well the fray is over and I hope you have done your Story C. I have omitted a number of pleasant conceits that came into his head which would make a Volume as big as Amadis de Gaul should they be all written And now I mention him it calls to mind a notable dispute which hapned between Don Quixote and a neighbour of his touching who was the better Knight Palmarin of England or Amadis de Gaul for just such another doth our Don raise about this Question Whether St. Taffee or St. Patrick was the better Saint Many words he makes about it and in spight of the Irish or the red letter before his name St. Patrick in his judgment hath the worse of it And no wonder for such was his gross Ignorance that he poor Soul took St. Taffee or David for the Divine Psalmist the King of Israel When as every child knows who hath read true Histories and not pleased himself like this Knight in his own Imaginations that he was a famous Bishop in Wales about 1100. year ago who by the favour of King Arthur translated the Archi-Episcopal See from Landaff to that City which bears his Name to this day N. C. I confess here he stumbled grieveously But I thought you would have been so kind as to have imputed it to the power of Enchantment C. That I confess is the best excuse which will make his mistakes as pardonable as the Errors of his Predecessor Don Quixote who took his Inne for a great Castle and the honest Host for the Noble Constable of it And indeed a pleasant sight it is to behold how while he is searching for one thing he still encounters another as Sancho sorrowfully told Maritornes He transforms every thing he meets withal into something else quite of another nature and now it appears in one shape immediately in another so vastly different that the great Enchantress the Author of all these transformations I have forgot her name but it ends also in fee or fia * Dokesisophia as I take it is much to be admired As for example now he fancies me riding like Phaeton in the Chariot of the Sun setting this part of the world on fire and in a trice before he had well finished one Sentence the wind of my Spleen mark the distraction of his fancy is rumbling in the bowels of the Earth to make an Earthquake all England over i Preface p. 6. At this instant he quarrels with the Rational Divines as he calls them and makes a fearful stir with them and at the next breath they are turn'd into Romantick Preachers that would plant all Religion within the compass of the famous Arcadia k Ib. p. 12. 13. As for himself you shall find him like a Roman Sergeant with a bundle of Rods at his back but let him speak a few words and he is turn'd into a Robin Hood and appears with his Bow and Arrows which he lets fly among us l Ib. p. 31. N. C. No only at your self For 〈◊〉 labours to give no offense to Jew or Ge●tile or to the Church of God as he the● tells you p. 34. C. Very well observed he is excee●ing tender of all Jews and Gentiles in● which his distracted fancy transform● some of us but there are certain P●grims what they are in his esteem Jew● Gentiles or Christians I cannot tell 〈◊〉 whom he grins very often and makes u●ly mouths nay le ts fly with all h● might and treats them very rudely B● he is never more extravagant than wh●● he comes to talk of keeping days whi●● is as dear to him as Dulcinea to his Brother Don. This he compares to emptying the Body by Bleeding and Purging Spring and Fall or as occasion serves and yet at the very next glance conceives it like to exceedings in our Diet 〈◊〉 eating and drinking to a greater fulness m Ib. pag. 18 19. All this shews that he is out of his wit● and needs a little bleeding himself If he were sent from that Hospital where he now is to that without Bishopsgate it might do him a great deal of good N. C. Now you bite C. I am between jest and earnest as he speaks p. 293. but by no means can ●e made angry with him Especially when I see how prettily he frisks how l●ghtly he leaps over all difficulties and jumps from one thing to another at the greatest distance just l●ke the Knights-Errant who are carried in a clowd from one Country to another in the twinkling of an eye being now in England and immediately at Trap●sonda by the help of the wise Enchanter And then he doth so nimbly and with so much facility apply every thing he meets withal to his raving Chivalry and ill-errant thoughts as the Author of Don Q. History speaks that it is no small pleasure to behold it Besides he is so marvellously well satisfied with his performance and thinks at every turn he comes off so rarely and with such wonderful success that it cannot but give one a singular entertainment He meets suppose with a Rational Divine and speaks never a word of
And once more in his Preface and in how many other places I cannot tell For to read the whole Book is no less toil than to travail through long Desarts a foot without any company which makes me loth to go thorough it again It is to seek fruit in the Garden of Tantalus to look for one leaf that will give a man either profit or pleasure N. C. This Pride doth not become you C. I can see nothing of that in this censure But if there were you of all other people should wink at it who by his own confession are the proudest men in the Nation N. C. O abominable He never was so mad yet as to grant you that C. What think you of those words If the Non conformist at this day be thought too high and too proud he only groweth like Camomile because he is trod and trampled upon for of Camomile it is said the more it is trodden on the more it grows N. C. I remember them p. 281. But know not what you will make of them C. No It is a plain demonstration according to his reasoning that they are grown intolerably high and proud because they are as he would have you believe intolerably afflicted and distressed p. 249. A most excellent improvement of Affliction and arguing much of the Power of godliness N. C. Come Sir jeer no more at godliness for you have done it too much already Your Book is an exact method and platform to extirpate practical holiness u Preface pag. 12. What makes you giggle in so serious a business C. I cannot but laugh a little at the laborious folly of this mans spight This is a mere device to draw the peoples minds from attending to what I say and to stir up their passion against me as an Enemy and hater of godliness N C. No He doth not think you to be such an Enemy to Religion as your Book would seem to import x Ib. pag. 15. but rather hopes you are a good man y Ib. p. 41. and Book pag. 3. C. That 's the thing I was going to say He overthrows all his accusation in two words by granting me to be Religious and j●dicious too p. 105. For how is it possible that a Godly man should contrive a way most effectual to root up godliness and N. C. Stay C You will revoke this favourable opinion of me now that you see whither it will carry you N. C. He saith he hath a great desire to constrain himself to think that you may possibly be wise in Solomon's sense that is fear the Lord p. 41. C. He was I observed at the last very fearful lest he should have judged too well of me and therefore as you say doth but constrain himself nay hath only a great desire to constrain himself but it seems would not do it and that but to think that it is possible I may be a good man With which I am very well contented and if you please I will give him all his good hopes of me back again having no need at all of them It is sufficient for me that he acknowledges he is far from thinking it was my design to overthrow piety though he is sure it is the end of my Book z Preface pag. 12. For mark I beseech you the absurdity of this How is it possible for a man by mere chance having no such design in his head to form so many Aphorisms Maxims and Stratagems all tending to one and the same end viz. the subverting of godliness and introducing impiety and that so exactly methodically and pertinently a Ib. pag. 15. as nothing can be more fitted for this purpose Make out this to me if you can for I protest to you I am utterly to seek how this should come to pass There must be a design of the Author in it or else he could never have done it with as much skill as Campanella shewed when he went to work for the extirpating Protestantism and setling Popery throughout England b Ib. Nay no Engineer he tells you could have given more proper counsel how to slight any fort or strong hold and how to level it with the ground than I have given how true Religion may be plucked up root and branch N. C. These things I confess do not hang well together C. Malice we see wants wit And after all his labour he hath but brought forth the Apothecaries Beast which Julian the Pelagian upbraided St. Austin withal A creature of wonderful strange properties as he made his Patient believe and promised he should see the next day which before morning came had eaten up her self For if I went so judiciously and accurately to work to overthrow all godliness it must be my design to overthrow it but he is far from thinking that and therefore there are no such exact Aphorisms and Stratagems but his better thoughts have destroyed those vain imaginations unless you can believe that Books may be made by shuffling so many Letters together or Batteries and Engines raised with throwing so many skuttles full of dirt and so many bundles of sticks together on a heap N. C. But the God of this world I remember he says so for the present blinded your eyes p. 15. C. What That I should contrive all this and never know it The good man hath plung'd himself so deep in a contradiction that he is fain to fly to the Devil to help him out But I pray who gave him Authority to stretch the Devils power so far that it may be thought to do the same upon a Believer which the Apostle saith he did upon Infidels And what is there that can blind any mans eyes but Covetousness Lust Ambition Anger Hatred or some such evil affection or passion Which if the Faith of Christ have not purged out of my heart I have no desire to constrain my self to think that it is possible I am a good Christian The very bottom of the business is this It is not godliness but themselves for which he is so much concerned and keeps all this stir For the Question is not whether we shall all heartily and earnestly study to be Godly that is to love and obey our Creator above all things according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ but whether you be the only godly or so much beyond all others as you imagine and whether that be the Power of godliness which is vulgarly called by that name This I denied and this made him so angry Notwithstanding which I still believe that many among us whom some of you make little account of are more thoroughly and substantially good than many among you upon whom you liberally bestow that name who value themselves more upon the score of keeping Days repeating Sermons talking of Religion and Experiences than for Justice Charity speaking Truth Peaceableness Meekness Obedience and such like virtues to which I find them very great strangers Now in stead of acknowledging