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A47851 Dissenters sayings the second part : published in their own words, for the information of the people : and dedicated to the Grand-jury of London, August 29, 1681 / by Roger L'Estrange. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1681 (1681) Wing L1245; ESTC R2228 59,550 94

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he so Imposes E. Bagshaw of things Indifferent Part. 2. p. 3. 5 Our Fundamentals were not made by our Representatives but by the People themselves and our Representatives themselves limited by them which it were Good that Parliaments as well as People would observe and be faithful to For no Derivative Power can Null what their Primitive Power hath Established The English-man p. 11. 6 Royal Primogeniture alone without the Peoples consent is no Rightful Title to the Government nor hath the Eldest Son or Heir of the King any Right to the Government by Birth unless the People consent to chuse him thereto Mene-Tekel p. 10. 7 The Parliaments of England and often the People without the Parliament have in their Addresses to the King given him the Title of Lord in a way of Honour and Respect but when he hath refused to perform his Duty to them and endeavoured by his Unlawful Prerogative to abridge them of their Liberties they have made him understand his Relation and by force of Arms Asserted their own Privileges and sometimes compelled the King to Perform his Duty other times Deposed him from the Government as the People of Israel did Rehoboam upon the same account and so have most if not all the Nations in the World done the same Ibid. pag. 36. 8 Rising up against Authority it self the Ordinance of God and Disobeying the Powers therewith vested standing and acting in their Right Line of Subordination is indeed Rebellion and as the sin of Witchcraft but to Resist and Rise up against Persons Abusing Sacred Authority and Rebelling against God the Supream is rather to adhere to God as our Liege Lord and to Vindicate both our selves and his Abused Ordinance from Man's Wickedness and Tyranny Naphtali p. 157. 9 The Power of the King Abused to the Destruction of Laws Religion and Subjects is a Power contrary to Law Evil and Tyrannical and Tyeth no man to subjection Lex Rex p. 261. 10 If we consider the Fountain-Power the King is Subordinate to Parliament and not Co-ordinate for the Constituent is above that which is Constituted Lex Rex p. 377. 11 Whensoever a King or other Supream Authority Creates an Inferiour they Invest it with a Legitimacy of Magistratical Power to punish themselves also in case they prove evil doers yea and to act any other thing requisite for the Praise and Encouragement of the Good Io. Goodwins Right and Might well met 1648. p. 7. 12 The People is not King formally because the People is eminently more than the King for they make David King and Saul King Lex Rex p. 156. 13 The Laws are in the hands of the Parliament to Change or Abrogate as they shall see best for the Common-wealth even to the taking away of Kingship it self when it grows too Masterful and Burdensome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 101. 14 The Parliament sit in that body not as his Subjects but as his Superiors call'd not by him but by the Law not only twice every year but as oft as great affaire require to be his Counsellors and Dictators though he stomack it nor to be Dissolved at his pleasure but when all Grievances be first removed all Petitions heard and answered Ibid. p. 110. 15 Our Covenant was not taken without the Royal Authority of the King though it be Condemn'd by his Personal Command for as long as this Parliament of England continueth the Royal Authority and Power is annexed to it by vertue of that Act of Continuance So that the King of England in his Power may still be at Westminster though King Charles in his Person be at Oxford or elsewhere The Covenanters Catechism 1644. p. 16. 16 If a People that by Oath and Duty are obliged to a Sovereign shall sinfully Dispossess him and contrary to their Covenants chuse and Covenant with another they may be Obliged by their latter Covenants notwithstanding the former Ho. Com. p 188. 17 Though the Perfidious Parliament or rather Mock Parliament have lately betrayed their own Trust and our Liberties making it Treason for us to mention the Cruel Tyranny and Oppression we groan under yet by the Ancient Laws of England this Man that Rules at present is no Rightful King of England but by Oppressing the Nation and Persecuting the Lords People hath loss the Title of a King and the Name of a King doth not agree to him but Tyrant is the Name due to him Mene-Tekel p. 63. 18 Q. Whether the Title of Supream be not rather Nominal than Real Valley of Acbor p. 1. 19 Our War has been proved over and over to Unbiast Consciences to be Just. Caryl to the Commons April 23. 1644. p. 15. 20 If the King raise War against the Parliament upon their Declaration of the Dangers of the Common-wealth in that case people may not only Resist him but also he Ceases to be a King Baxter H. Common-wealth Thes. 368. 21 It is our Duty to yield to this Authority all Active and Chearful Obedience in the Lord even for Conscience sake Ibid. 22 A Refusal to be subject to this Authority under the pretence of Upholding the Title of any One upon Earth is a Refusal to Acquiesce in the Wise and Righteous pleasure of God Ienkins Petition Printed Oct. 15. 1651. 23 The King must Command not only according to God's but Man's Laws And if he do not so Command the Resistance is not a Resistance of Power but Will. Bridges to the Commons Feb. 7. 1642. Pref. 24 Let not the Sons of Belial say there is no Law now let them not be as when there was no King in Israel every man doing that which was right in his own eyes let them know that the Kingly Power Resides in the High Court of Parliament Pickering No. 27. 1649. Epist. Ded. 25 Subjects do promise Obedience that the Magistrate might help them which if he do not they are discharg'd of their Obedience Goodman p. 190. 26 Judges ought by the Law of God to Summon Princes before them for their Crimes and to proceed against them as against all other Offenders Obedience p. 111. 27 Scotland fought for themselves and their own safety and whatever Law will Warrant Nations now to joyn together against the Turk will Warrant Scotland their joyning with England against their Common-Enemy Apologet. Relat. p. 138. 28 A War raised by the Parliament against the Common Enemy in defence of the Kings Honour the safety of the People and the Purity of Religion cannot be Condemned as Unjust and Illegal Apol. Rel. p. 142. 29 It was the common practice of the Parliaments of Scotland and Lex currit cum Praxi to rise in Arms against their Kings when they turned Tyrants Ibid. 143. 30 It is lawful for the Inferiour and Subordinate Magistrates to defend the Church and Common-wealth when the Supream Magistrate degenerates and falleth into Tyranny or Idolatry for Kings are subject to their Common-wealths Canterburies Doom p. 290. c. 31 The Parliament have declar'd
at leisure perhaps to turn over Books and zealously affected over and above to the Reputation of an odd sort of Christians that style themselves True Protestants what more agreeable Present in this World could I make you than this Collection of True-Protestant-Sayings ready drawn up to your hands where you shall see all their Virtues Common-plac'd their Graces drawn to the life their Agreement among themselves their Affection to the King and Church the Moderation of their Principles and the tenderness of their hearts towards their Sovereign Faithfully and Impartially set forth and transmitted to Posterity by themselves and effectually Sign'd Seal'd and Deliver'd to the World for the use of future Generations by their own Rabbies Gentlemen I am with all Reciprocal Affection Your most Humble Servant Roger L'Estrange THE CONTENTS § 1. OF Toleration pag. 1. § 2. The Fruits of a Toleration p. 7. § 3. The Dissenters Harmony among themselves p. 13. § 4. The Dissenters Behaviour toward the Government and first the Clergy p. 22. § 5. The Dissenters Behaviour towards the Civil Government p. 30. § 6. The Presbyterians Opinion of the Covenant p. 34. § 7. Dissenters Liberty of Conscience p. 37. § 8. The Power of the Kirk p. 39. § 9. Principles and Positions p. 45. § 10. Tumults Encouraged And chiefly by the Able Holy Faithful Laborious and Trulypeaceable Ministers of the Gospel p. 51. Petition for Peace p. 4. § 11. The War Iustified p. 55. § 12. Reformation by Blood p. 59. § 13. The Murder of the King Encouraged p. 67. § 14. The King's Murder Iustifi'd p. 70. §. 1. Dissenters Sayings c. 1 TOleration hath done much more toward the Rooting of Religion out of the Hearts of many men in seven year then the Enforcing of Uniformity did in Seventy years Cawdrys Independency a great Schism 1657. P. 14. 2 A Toleration hath All Errors in it and All Evills Edwards Gangreen P. 58. 3 A Toleration would be the putting a Sword in a Mad man's hand a Cup of Poyson into the hand of a Child a Letting loose of Madmen with Firebrands in their hands An appointing a City of Refuge in mens Consciences for the Devil to fly to a laying of a stumbling Block before the Blind a Proclaiming Liberty to the Wolves to come into Christs Fold to Prey upon the Lambs Neither would it be to Provide for Tender Consciences but to take away all Conscience The Harmonious Consent of the Lancashire Ministers with their Brethren in London Subscribed by 84. 1648. P. 12. 4 A Toleration would make us become the Abhorring and Loathing of all Nations and being so palpable a Breach of Covenant would awaken against us the Lord of Hosts to bring a Sword upon us to Avenge the Quarrell of his Covenant Mr. Noise of New England of the Power of Magistrates P. 13. 5 That Doctrine that cryeth up Purity to the Ruine of Unity is Contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel Vindication of the Presbyterial Government and Ministry 1649. P. 124. 6 That Religion which carries in the Front of it a Toleration of Different Religions and not sufficient to keep the Body of Christ in Unity and Purity is not the Government of Christ. Ibid. 7 Liberty in all matters of Worship and of Faith is the open and Apparent way to set up Popery in the Land Bax. Non-Con Plea Pref. 8 Must he have his Conscience that makes no Conscience What he that hath sin'd away his Conscience If Conscience be a sufficient Plea the Papists may come in for a Childs part If Conscience goes against the word Deponenda est talis Conscientia Get Conscience better Enform'd The Conscience of a Sinner is Desil'd 1. Tit. 15. Conscience being desil'd may Erre Conscience erring may suggest that which is sinfull There is nothing can bind a man to sin Watson to the Commons Dec. 27. 1646. P. 17. 9 A Toleration of Independent Churches and Government with Opinions and Practise against the Magistrates Duty lay'd down in Scripture Edwards Full Answer P. 237. It is against the Solemn League and Covenant for Reformation P. 238. A shrew'd Temptation to make many fall and a means of Confirmation in the way of Errour P. 244. A Toleration of One or more Different ways of Churches and Church-Government from the Church and Church-Government Establish'd will be to this Kingdom very Mischievous Pernicious and Destructive P. 247. It hath ever been from first to last a Fountain of Evil and a Root of Bitterness of many bitter Divisions and Separations among themselves of Manifold Errors and other Mischiefs in those Churches and Places where they liv'd P. 248. 10 Will Mercifull Rulers set up a Trade for Butchering of Souls and allow men to set up a shop of Poyson for all men to Buy and take that will yea to Proclaim this Poyson for Souls in streets and Church-Assemblies c Baxters Self-Denial Epist. Monitory 11 We must either Tolerate all men to do what they will which they will make a matter of Conscience or Religion and then some may offer their Children in Sacrifice to the Devil and some may think they do God service in Killing his servants c. Or else you must Tolerate no Errour or Fault in Religion and then you must advise what measure of Penalty you will Inflict Baxters Church-Divis P. 363. 364. 12 I have known too many very honest hearted Christians Especially Melancholique Persons and women who have been in great doubt about the opinions of the Millenaryes the Separatists the Anabaptists the Seekers and such like and after Earnest Prayer to God they have been strongly resolv'd for the way of Errour and Confident by the strong Impression that it was the Spirits Answer to their Prayers and thereupon they have set themselves into a Course of sin Ibid. P. 162. It is very ordinary with poor Fantasticall Women and melancholique Persons to take all their deep Apprehensions for Revelations Ibid. P. 167. 13 If we do through weakness or Perverseness take Lawfull things to be Unlawfull that will not excuse us in our disobedience Our Errour is our sin and one sin will not excuse another Baxters 5. Dispute P. 483. 14 Oh what a Potent Instrument for Satan is a Misguided Conscience It will make a man kill his Dearest Friend yea Father or Mother yea the holyest Saint and think he doth God good service by it And to Facilitate the work it will first blot out the Reputation of their Holiness and make them take a Saint for a Devil Bax. Saints Rest P. 133. 15 Take heed how you tolerate Schism for in little time without great care it will open the door to Heresy Hodges to the Commons Mar. 10. 1656. P. 55. 16 Divisions whether they be Ecclesiasticall or Politicall in Kingdoms Citys and Familyes are Infallible Causes of Ruine to Kingdoms Cityes and Familyes Calamy to the Commons Dec. 25. 1644. P. 4. 17 Lyes would not take if they were not Commended by the Holyness of the
us so they fled before us Sterry to the Commons No. 26. 1645. P. 23. 22 When Christ was Crucifi'd did not all forsake him Had but a few of that Inconstant multitude which but a while before had cry'd Hosanna stuck close to Christ in likelyhood they had deliver'd him Carter to the Commons Aug. 31. 1642. P. 12. 26 This year God by a Providence hath buryed this Feast Christmas day in a ●…ast and I hope it will never rise again Calamy to the Commons Dec. 25. 1644. P. 41. 27 I ask whether the Repetition of these words Our Father c. after men have been long praying for the things contained in them as the manner of some is be not so remote from any Pretence or Colour of Warrant in the Scripture as that it is in plain Terms RIDICULOUS D. Io. Owen Vindiciae Evangel P. 669. 28 As men set Traps to catch Vermine so God appoints Heresyes to Insnare Arrogant and Self-presuming or Vicious and Self-defiling men Bagshaw of Heresyes P. 8. 26 Where is the God of Marston-Moor and the God of Nase●…y is an Acceptable Expostulation in a Gloomy day O what a Catalogue of Mercyes has this Nation to Plead by in a time of Trouble God came from Naesby and the Holy One from the West Selah c. D. Owens Eben-Ez●…r P. 13. 30 God had so wonderfully wrought upon the Spirits of men particularly on those Soldiers who were to fight the Bishops Battels in Scotland that they pull'd down the Railes threaten'd the Priests and kept such a Visitation in their Progress as the Bishops hardly ever had done since Q. Elizabeths days Case to the Commons Gods waiting 1642. 31 Let me tell ye if ever Gentlemen you might use this Speech O happy penny you may use it now Happy money that will purchase my Gospel happy money that will Purchase Religion and Purchase a Reformation to my Posterity O happy Money and Blessed be Cod that I have it to Lend E. Calamy's Speech at Guild-Hall Oct. 6. 1643. 32 The Lord Iesus hath his Concubines his Queens his Virgins Saints in Remoter Forms Saints in Higher Forms Saints Unmarried to any Forms who keep themselves single for the Immediate Embraces of their Lord. Sterry's Englands Deliverance Epistle 33 God did not Measure Iob in his Wallops but when he was Cold As we do not measure Milk when it Wallops and Seeths but when it is Cold Bridge's First and Last in Suffering P. 47. 34 I will gently lead those that are with Young that is saith he Christ will be very kind to those Saints that step aside and he thus Comforts those that are big with young in a sinfull sense O ye Sinning Ewes who have been big with young hath not he gone after you and sound you and laid you upon his shoulders rejoycing It may be thou hast been wand'ring like Dinah from thy Fathers House and art big with young and afraid to go home but fear not Go and Try he will not cast you out of Doors though you come with Big Bellyes he will deal gently with you though with Young And then It is our Glory to be Christs Ewes and that when a MAN is Big with Young and Cryes out O my Belly my Belly here is a Point of Comfort that Christ is Sweet to such Persons Afterwards He cryes out O Blessed Ewes O Believing Ewes And O Believing Bees that suck the Hony of Sin-Hatred out of the Wormwood of Sin-Acted In another place he tells us that Christ accounts their very Stammerings sweet Meih Meih saith the Little One and the Mother Counts it musick Durant's Sips of sweetness upon Isaiah 40. 11. Reprinted 1662. 35 I dare speak it as Confidently as I Believe the Revelation to be Divine Scripture that what Viol soever is pouring out the Issue will be Anti-Christ shall loose and Christ shall gain Marshall to the Commons Iune 15. 1643. P. 45. 36 Not only is that Covenant which God hath made with us founded in the Bloud of Christ but that also which we make with God Caryl Oct. 6. 1643. P. 33. 37 Beloved can ye forget the Soldiers I say the Soldiers who have spent their Bloud for Christ as Christ did for them even their own Precious Bloud in Gods Cause at Newbery Evans to the Earl of Essex at St. Clements Sept. 26. 1643. 38 You who sit at the Right hand of the Lord Iesus in this Common-wealth as the Lord Jesus sits at the Right Hand of his Father in that Kingdom which is over all c. Sterry to the Commons No. 26. 1645. Epistle 39 All you that have Contributed to the Parliament come and take this Sacrament to your Comfort Case 40 One Redman of Castle-Dunnington in Leicester-shire in Opposition to the Order of the Church deliver'd the Sacrament in the Afternoon in Ale Notes upon §. 2. TOleration will make way for False Christs and False Prophets 1 Destroy all Government 8. Introduce Schisms and Heresies 3. 4. Authorize Mechanicks to Preach 5. Tear the Church to peices 6 Divide us from God 7 Give Encouragement to Blasphemy Prophaneness and Dissolution of manners 8 And so to the End How can the Dissenters Press for a Toleration now after this agreement among themselves that it must Inevitably draw after it the Ruine and Confusion both of Church and State §. 3. The Dissenters Harmony among themselves 1 Does not the Apostle Prophesy That in the last days Perillous Times shall come for men shall be lovers of themselves Covetous Boasters Proud Heady High-minded having a Form of Godlyness but denying the Power thereof Ever learning but never able to come to the Knowledge of the Truth Yea such as will not Endure sound Doctrine but after their own lusts will heap to themselves Teachers having itching Ears turning away their Ears from the Truth and will be turned into Fables and Fictions New lights and Revelations And are not your thus pretended New-lights the very Persons thus delineated by your own Confessions and practices too even Murmurers Complainers desirous to walk after your own lusts and having mens Persons in admiration for Advantage Yea take heed I say ye be not found to be those Clouds without water carried about with W●…des and those wand'ring Stars which the Apostle Iude speaks of which know not when or where Immutably to fix your faith and Judgments Whereas our Presbyterians and all other True Believers are allways 1. Cor. 15. 58. Phil. 1. 27. and Chap. 4. 1. c. stedfast Unmoveable standing fast in the Lord in one spirit and in One mind striving together for the faith of the Gospell and not tossed to and fro like Children carried about with Every Wind of Doctrine by the slight of men as too many Scepticall Independents are to the Great Obloquy and Scandall of Religion Picture of Independency P. 9. Independent 2 You complain of your Misery and Bondage Sorrows and Oppressions and Troubles of the Church What ails you What Troubles
freely for it and now dye for it Nine Mens Speeches Axtel at his Execution p. 89. 8 It cannot be unknown how much we and other Ministers of this City and Kingdom that faithfully adhered to the Parliament have Injuriously smarted under the scourge of evil Tongues and Pens ever since the first Eruption of the Unhappy Differences and Unnatural War between the King and Parliament for our Obedience to the Commands and Orders of the Honourable Houses in their Contests with his Majesty and Conflicts with his Armi●…s London-Ministers Vindicati●…n 1648. p. 1. 9 When we consider how much it concerns the Honour of our Master and the good of all to preserve our Ministerial Function Immaculate we dare not but stand by and assert the Integrity of our hearts and the Innocency of all our actings in reference to the King and Kingdom for which we are so much calumniated and traduced Ibid. p. 3. 10 Doubtless the Lord is highly displeased with their proccedings in the Treaty at Newport in reference to Religion and Covenant concerning which they accepted of such Concessions from his Majesty as being Acquiesced in were dangerous and destructive to both The Kirks Testimony against Toleration p. 12. 1649. 11 I pray look on me as one that comes among you this day to beat a Drum in your Ears to see who will come out and follow the Lamb. Marshall 1641. 12 The Sabbath-day following next after their Arrival to London from Branford the Godly and well-affected Ministers throughout the City Preached and Praised the Lord publiquely for their so joyful and safe return home to their Parents Masters and Friends exhorting those young Soldiers of Christ's Army Royal still to retain 〈◊〉 be forward and ready to shew their Courage and Zeal 〈◊〉 of Gods Cause and their Countrys welfare shewing 〈◊〉 of their Adversaries to have Introduced Popery and 〈◊〉 Kingdom and assuring them that this War on 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 waged and managed by Papists an Army of Papists being 〈◊〉 the Kings Command contrary to his Vows Protestations and deep Asseverations to the contrary Iehova-Iireh p. 212. 13 My House was a Receptacle for Godly Ministers in the worst of times Here was the Remonstrance fram'd against the Prelates Here were all meetings c. Mr. Calamy's Apology against Burton 1646. 14 You must do and you must do and yet you must do and yet ye must do as long as there is a Penny in thy Purse as long as there is strength in thy hand as long as there is breath in thy body c. Sedgwick's Speech at Guildhall Octob. 6. 1643. 15 I may not omit here to speak of all the Faithful Presbyterian Ministers in this City as well as through the Country those Chariots and Horse-men of our Israel though now forgotten many of the which not only ventur'd their Lives in Battel but by holding up their hands as Moses did when the People of Israel fought against the Enemy and by the lifting up their Hearts and Voices to God with strong crys made all our Armies abroad and our Counsels at home to prosper and all our undertakings happily to succeed Neither is that all but by their Wisdom Vigilancy and Powerful and persuasive Preaching they were the principal means under God of keeping the People here and every where in obedience to the Parliament by resolving their doubts satisfying their scruples and going before the People to their abilities yea many of them to my knowledg out of zeal to the Cause beyond their Abilities in all Contributions animating and encouraging others to bring in their Plate and Moneys and whatsoever was of price and esteem with them exhorting them now if ever to stand for their Religion Lives Liberties and the Liberty of the Subject Bastwicks Appendix to Indep c. p. 628. 16 I am one who out of Choice and Judgment have embarqued my self my Wife Children Estate and all that 's dear to me in the same Ship with you to sink and perish or to come safe to Land with you and that in the most doubtful and difficult times Pleading your Cause Justifying your Wars satisfying many that scrupled and when your Affairs were at lowest and the Chance of War against ye and some of the Grandees and Favorites of these times were packing up and ready to be gone I was then Highest and m●…st Zealous for ye Preaching Praying stirring up the People to stand for ye by going out in Person lending of Money c. Edwards Gangraena Ep. Ded Notes upon §. 10. AFTER these Proofs and Declarations of the Ministers Zeal and Industry for the promoting supporting and carrying on of the late Bloody Impious and Unnatural War let not any man take upon him any longer to acquit the Nonconformist Divines of the Guilt and Consequences of that Execrable Rebellion You have here under their hands and from their own tongues not only a Confession of the Fact but a Valuing of themselves even to the degree of Vanity and Ostentation for what they did toward the Advancing of that Sedition as a most Meritorious Service Nay they do not stick to acknowledge that the War could hardly have proceeded without them There 's no evading or qualifying the dint of this Charge since we have their own Papers in Iudgment against them §. 11. The War Iustified 1 LET us set hand and heart and shoulder and all to advance the Lords Sion to a perfection of beauty and to set up Christ upon his Throne Whites Centuries Pref. 1643. 2 Did ever any Parliament in England lay the Cause of Christ and Religion to heart as this hath done Did ever the City of London the rest of the Tribes and the Godly Party throughout the Land so willingly exhaust themselves that Christ might be set up Marshal to the Commons 1643. p. 19. And then let all England cry that our Blood our Poverty c. are abundantly repaid in this that there is such a Concurrence to set up the Lord Christ upon his Throne to be Lord and Christ over this our Israel p. 20. 3 As the Spirit of the Lord came upon Sampson and Iephta●… and David so hath it been in our Conflicts The Spirit of the Lord hath come upon our Noble General and all our Commanders The Spirit of the Lord hath come upon our Gallants Gentlemen Young men Faithful Country-men Renowned Citizens So that he that was we●…k among them is as David and he that was as David hath been as the Angel of the Lord. Case to the Commons 1644. p. 28. 4 Tell them from the Holy Ghost says Beech from the word of Truth that their Destruction shall be terrible it shall be timely it shall b●… total Serm. Licensed by Mr. Cranferd 1645 p. 1●… And ibid. O give th●…nks unto the Lord for he is Gracious and his Mercy endur●…th for ever who remembred us at 〈◊〉 for his Mercy endureth for ever who remembred us in 〈◊〉 shi●…e for his mercy endureth for ever who remembred us at Leicester