Learning there was none erected till that time thoogh it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long time before many more were added to them by the devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy Men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their Friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to Preferment both in Church and Common-wealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect receiv'd was the maintenance of the Popes Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School-Divines who striving to make good many Points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School-Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may perceive that shall consider the Writings of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or any other School-Divine of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admir'd by two sorts of Men otherwise prudent enough the one of which sorts were of those that were already devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admir'd the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent Men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine So that all sorts of People were fully resolv'd that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more than what was due to him B. I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such Authority will have but a hard match of it for want of Men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great Rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Popes quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the 4 th wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it But the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the 8 th could then so utterly extinguish the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First the Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their Lives which the Gentry and Men of good Education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common People which from a long Custom had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly the Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly the Revenue of Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings Hands and by him being disposed of to the most Eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a Nature quick and severe in the punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his Designs Lastly as to Invasion from abroad in case the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre Besides the French and Spanish Forces were employed at that time one against another and though they had been at leisure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniards found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was amongst other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterward did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his anger There was besides a Controversie in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church And because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let that Act of Parliament pass In the Reign of King Edward the 6 th the Doctrine of Luther had taken so great root in England that they threw out also a great many of the Popes new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by Henry the 8 th saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward And so it hath continued till this day excepting the Interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical Men. But though the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of
else want lawful Heirs to succeed him by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any Controversie between him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for among them Episcopus was a Name common to all Kings Is not he a Bishop now to whom God hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pastor but a Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laique and Clerique and he only Shepherd And seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian endued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not only a Bishop but an Arch-bishop and his whole Dominion his Diocess And though it were granted that Imposition of Hands is necessary from a Priest yet seeing Kings have the Government of the Clergy that are his Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self wherein he is receiv'd as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you This Prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the 7 th and William the first King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelors at his service Secondly That Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that confessed in writing but that use was taken away about the time of King Edward the third and Priests commanded to take Confessions from the Mouth of the Confitent and Men did generally believe that without Confession and Absolution before their departure out of the World they could not be saved and having Absolution from a Priest that they could not be damn'd You understand by this how much every Man would stand in awe of the Pope and Clergy more than they would of the King and what Inconvenience it is to a State for their Subjects to confess their secret Thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit sins absolutely but only with a condition of repentance yet the People were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was perform'd Within the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a Man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a Point very difficult for a Man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insult upon the dulness not only of Common People but also of Kings and their Councellors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviour's Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Popes Authority they had many fine Points in their Ecclesiastical Politie conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time For then it was the Order came up of Preaching Friars that wandred up and down with power to preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the People nothing that might lessen the Obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power Besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak Judgment confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or Pious Works and necessary for the remission of their sins B. I do not remember that I have read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private Man to call the People together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendome I believe the Heathen Kings foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath-day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself and I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach Men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the People and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperor Charles the Great and of King Edward the third of England began their second Politie which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all the Decrees of the Roman Church by disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Philosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperor by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latin Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of
but no knowledge of what they are nor any method of obtaining Vertue nor of avoiding Vice The end of Moral Philosophy is to teach men of all sorts their duty both to the Publick and to one another They estimate Vertue partly by a Mediocrity of the Passions of men and partly by that that they are praised whereas it is not the Much or Little Praise that makes an Action vertuous but the Cause nor much or little blame that makes an Action vitious but its being unconformable to the Laws in such men as are subject to the Law or its being unconformable to Equity or Charity in all men whatsoever B. It seems you make a difference between the Ethicks of Subjects and the Ethicks of Sovereigns A. So I do The Vertue of a Subject is comprehended wholly in obedience to the Laws of the Common-wealth To obey the Laws is Justice and Equity which is the Law of Nature and consequently is Civil Law in all Nations of the World and nothing is Injustice or Iniquity otherwise than it is against the Law Likewise to obey the Laws is the Prudence of a Subject for without such obedience the Common-wealth which is every Subject's safety and protection cannot subsist And though it be prudence also in private men justly and moderately to enrich themselves yet craftily to with-hold from the Publick or defraud it of such part of their wealth as is by Law requir'd is no sign of prudence but of want of knowledge of what is necessary for their own defence The Vertues of Sovereigns are such as tend to the maintenance of peace at home and to the resistance of Forreign Enemies Fortitude is a Royal Vertue and though it be necessary in such private men as shall be Soldiers yet for other men the less they dare the better it is both for the Common-wealth and for themselves Frugality though perhaps you will think it strange is also a Royal Vertue for it increases the Publick Stock which cannot be too great for the Publick Use nor any man too sparing of what he has in trust for the good of others Liberality also is a Royal Vertue for the Common-wealth cannot be well served without extraordinary diligence and service of Ministers and great fidelity to their Sovereigns who ought therefore to be encouraged and especially those that do him service in the Wars In sum all Actions and Habits are to be esteemed good or evil by their causes and usefulness in reference to the Common-wealth and not by their Mediocrity nor by their being commended for several men praise several Customs and that which is Vertue with one is blamed by others and contrarily what one calls Vice another calls Vertue as their present affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed among the Vertues that which in my opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whither do we digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that pass'd in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Councels and Artifice by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have written the History out of whom I might have learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of what I would ask Therefore since you were pleas'd to enter into this discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method and for the danger of confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A. Well then To your question concerning Religion in as much as I told you that all Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Common-wealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no evidence from the Laws of Men but because Men can never by their own wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and commanded to be observ'd nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiesce in some Humane Authority or other So that the Question will be whether a Man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his duty to God and the King to rely upon the preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that Point for there is none that preach here or any where else at least ought to preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power so that if the King gives us leave you or I may as lawfully preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into the Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many Points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle For in the Church of Rome the principal Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious To be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the Cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the goodness and wickedness of all Actions by their congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Philosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writings B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who if they had power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians do to have a Right from God immediately to govern the King and his Subjects in all Points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had number and strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to obtain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a Systeme of the present Morals written by
of Henry the third the Lords were descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow-Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France but after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue failed Titulary only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being no longer bound to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Councel And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased but I do not find they were part of the King's Councel at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other but I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Councel about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws To choose his own Privy-Councellors To raise Money and Soldiers To defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom To make Captains in his Army To make Governours of his Castles whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8 th adjourned till the 20 th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most seditious of both Houses and which had design'd the change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up any other Government in its place and consequently left it to the chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got together a great Party with an intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle in October the 20 th where the King's Officers of the Government of that Countrey made their Residence and had effected it had it not been discovered the night before The manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole Story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect and provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England for was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England Or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastise them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scotch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Counsellors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the power of pressing and ordering of Soldiers which power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole Sovereignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25 th of November and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the Common People as much as if he had been the most beloved of all the Kings that were before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December the second the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succors for Ireland B. What quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in agitation to assert the Power of Levying and Pressing Soldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take from the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Sovereign Power for he that hath the power of Levying and Commanding of the Soldiers has all other Rights of Sovereignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14 th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering of the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withal told them he took notice of the Bill in agitation for pressing of Soldiers and that he was contented it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unseasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing What 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrel'd at is another They quarrel'd at this That his Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the course of Parliament and also that he shewed himself displeas'd with those that propounded the said Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them reparation against those by whose evil Counsel he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill in debate then in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a Man should be lawfully in the company of Men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in
When his Miracles declared it when Pilate confessed it and when the Apostles Office was to Proclaim it Seventhly If we must not consider in points of Christian Faith who is the Soveraign Prophet that is who is next under Christ our Supream Head and Governor I wish his Lordship would have cleared ere he dyed these few Questions Is there not need of some Judge of Controverted Doctrines I think no man can deny it that has seen the Rebellion that followed the Controversie here between Gomar and Arminius There must therefore be a Judge of Doctrines But says the Bishop not the King Who then Shall Dr. Bramhall be this Judge As profitable an Office as it is he was more modest than to say that Shall a private Lay-man have it No man ever thought that Shall it be given to a Presbyterian Minister No 't is unreasonable Shall a Synod of Presbyterians have it No For most of the Presbyters in the Primitive Church were undoubtedly subordinate to Bishops and the rest were Bishops Who then A Synod of Bishops Very well His Lordship being too Modest to undertake the whole Power would have been contented with the six and twentieth part But suppose it in a Synod of Bishops who shall call them together The King What if he will not Who should Excommunicate him or if he despise your Excommunication who shall send forth a Writ of Significavit No all this was far from his Lordships thoughts The power of the Clergy unless it be upheld legally by the King or illegally by the Multitude amounts to nothing But for the Multitude Suarez and the School-men will never gain them because they are not understood Besides there be very few Bishops that can act a Sermon which is a puissant part of Rhetorick So well as divers Presbyterians and Phanatick Preachers can do I conclude therefore that his Lordship could not possibly believe that the Supream Judicature in matter of Religion could any where be so well placed as in the Head of the Church which is the King And so his Lordship and I think the same thing but because his Lordship knew not how to deduce it he was angry with me because I did it He says further that by my Principles he that blasphemeth Christ at Constantinople is a true Prophet as if a man that blasphemeth Christ to approve his Blasphemy can procure a Miracle for by my principles no Man is a Prophet whose Prophesie is not confirmed by God with a Miracle In the last place out of this That the lawful Soveraign is the Judge of Prophesie he deduces That then Samuel and other Prophets were false Prophets that contested with their Soveraigns As for Samuel he was at that time the Judge that is to say the Soveraign Prince in Israel and so acknowledged by Saul For Saul received the Kingdom from God himself who had right to give and take it by the hands of Samuel And God gave it him to himself only and not to his Seed though if he had obeyed God he would have setled it also upon his Seed The Commandement of God was that he should not spare Agag Saul obeyed not God therefore sent Samuel to tell him that he was rejected For all this Samuel went not about to resist Saul That he caused Agag to be slain was with Sauls consent Lastly Saul confesses his sin Where is this contesting with Saul After this God sent Samuel to anoint David not that he should depose Saul but succeed him the Sons of Saul having never had a right of Succession Nor did ever David make War on Saul or so much as resist him but fled from his persecution But when Saul was dead then indeed he claimed his right against the House of Saul What Rebellion or Resistance could his Lordship find here either in Samuel or in David Besides all these Transactions are supernatural and oblige not to imitation Is there any Prophet or Priest now that can set up in England Scotland or Ireland another King by pretence of Prophesie or Religion What did Jeroboam to the man of God 1 Kings 13 that Prophesied against the Altar in Bethel without first doing a Miracle but offer to seize him for speaking as he thought rashly of the Kings Act and after the Miraculous withering of his Hand desire the Prophet to pray for him The sin of Jeroboam was not his distrust of the Prophet but his Idolatry He was the sole Judge of the truth which the man of God uttered against the Altar and the process agreeable to equity What is the story of Eliah and Ahab 1 Kings 18. but a confirmation of the Right even of Ahab to be the Judge of Prophesie Eliah told Ahab he had transgressed the Commandement of God So may any Minister now tell his Soveraign so he do it with sincerity and discretion Ahab told Eliah he troubled Israel Upon this controversie Eliah desired Tryal Send saith he and Assemble all Israel Assemble also the Prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty Ahab did so The Question is stated before the People thus If the Lord be God follow him but if Baal follow him Then upon the Altars of God and Baal were laid the Wood and the Bullocks and the cause was to be Judged by Fire from Heaven to Burn the Sacrifices which Eliah procured the Prophets of Baal could not procure Was not this cause here Pleaded before Ahab The Sentence of Ahab is not required for Eliah from that time forward was no more persecuted by Ahab but only by his Wife Jezabel The story of Micaiah 2 Cron. 18. is this Ahab King of Israel consulted the Prophets four hundred in number whether he should prosper or not in case he went with Jehosaphat King of Judah to fight against the Syrians at Ramoth-gilead The Prophet Micaiah was also called and both the Kings Ahab and Jehosaphat sat together to hear what they should prophecy There was no Miracle done The 400 pronounced Victory Micaiah alone the contrary The King was Judge and most concern'd in the event nor had he received any Revelation in the business What could he do more discreetly than to follow the Counsel of 400 rather than of one Man But the event was contrary for he was slain but not for following the Counsel of the 400 but for his Murder of Naboth and his Idolatry It was also a sin in him that he afflicted Micaiah in Prison but an unjust Judgment does not take away from any King his right of Judicature Besides what 's all this or that of Jeremiah which he cites last to the Question of who is Judge of Christian Doctrine J. D. Neither doth he use God the Holy Ghost more favourably than God the Son Where St. Peter saith Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit He saith By the Spirit is meant the Voice of God in a Dream or Vision Supernatural which Dreams or Visions he maketh to be no more than imaginations which they
which is a Person indued with Authority universal to govern all Christian men on Earth no more than there is one Universal Soveraign Prince or State on Earth that hath right to govern all Mankind I deny also that the whole Clergy of a Christian Kingdom or State being assembled are the representative of that Church further than the Civil Laws permits or can lawfully assemble themselves unless by the command or by the leave of the Soveraign Civil Power I say further that the denyal of this point tendeth in England towards the taking away of the Kings Supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical But his Lordship has not here denyed any thing of mine because he has done no more but set down my words He says further that this Doctrine destroyes the Authority of all General Councils which I confess Nor hath any General Council at this day in this Kingdom the force of a Law nor ever had but by the Authority of the King J. D. Neither is he more Orthodox concerning the Holy Scriptures Hitherto that is for the Books of Moses the power of making the Scripture Canonical was in the Civil Soveraign The like he saith of the Old Testament made Canonical by Esdras And of the New Testament That it was not the Apostles which made their own Writings Canonical but every Convert made them so to himself Yet with this restriction That until the Soveraign Ruler had prescribed them they were but Counsel and Advice which whether good or bad he that was counselled might without injustice refuse to observe and being contrary to the Laws established could not without injustice observe He maketh the Primitive Christians to have been in a pretty condition Certainly the Gospel was contrary to the Laws then established But most plainly The word of the Interpreter of the Scripture is the word of God And the same is the Interpreter of the Scripture and the Soveraign Judge of all Doctrines that is the Soveraign Magistrate to whose Authority we must stand no less than to theirs who at first did commend the Scripture to us for the Canon of Faith Thus if Christian Soveraigns of different Communications do clash one with another in their interpretations or misinterpretation of Scripture as they do daily then the word of God is contradictory to it self or that is the word of God in one Common-wealth which is the word of the Devil in another Common-wealth And the same thing may be true and not true at the same time Which is the peculiar priviledge of T.H. to make Contradictories to be true together T. H. There is no doubt but by what Authority the Scripture or any other Writing is made a Law by the same Authority the Scriptures are to be interpreted or else they are made Law in vain But to obey is one thing to believe is another which distinction perhaps his Lordship never heard of To obey is to do or forbear as one is commanded and depends on the Will but to believe depends not on the Will but on the providence and guidance of our hearts that are in the hands of God Almighty Laws only required obedience Belief requires Teachers and Arguments drawn either from Reason or from some thing already believed Where there is no reason for our Belief there is no reason we should believe The reason why men believe is drawn from the Authority of those men whom we have no just cause to mistrust that is of such men to whom no profit accrues by their deceiving us and of such men as never used to lye or else from the Authority of such men whose Promises Threats and Affirmations we have seen confirmed by God with Miracles If it be not from the Kings Authority that the Scripture is Law what other Authority makes it Law Here some man being of his Lordships judgment will perhaps laugh and say 't is the Authority of God that makes them Law I grant that But my question is on what Authority they believe that God is the Author of them Here his Lordship would have been at a Nonplus and turning round would have said the Authority of the Scripture makes good that God is their Author If it be said we are to believe the Scripture upon the Authority of the Universal Church why are not the Books we call Apocrypha the Word of God as well as the rest If this Authority be in the Church of England then it is not any other than the Authority of the Head of the Church which is the King For without the Head the Church is mute the Authority therefore is in the King which is all that I contended for in this point As to the Laws of the Gentiles concerning Religion in the Primitive times of the Church I confess they were contrary to Christian Faith But none of their Laws nor Terrors nor a mans own Will are able to take away Faith though they can compel to an external obedience and though I may blame the Ethnick Princes for compelling men to speak what they thought not yet I absolve not all those that have had the Power in Christian Churches from the same fault For I believe since the time of the first four General Councels there have been more Christians burnt and killed in the Christian Church by Ecclesiastical Authority than by the Heathen Emperors Laws for Religion only without Sedition All that the Bishop does in this Argument is but a heaving at the Kings Supremacy Oh but says he if two Kings interpret a place of Scripture in contrary sences it will follow that both sences are true It does not follow For the interpretation though it be made by just Authority must not therefore always be true If the Doctrine in the one sence be necessary to Salvation then they that hold the other must dye in their sins and be Damned But if the Doctrine in neither sence be necessary to Salvation then all is well except perhaps that they will call one another Atheists and fight about it J. D. All the power vertue use and efficacy which he ascribeth to the Holy Sacraments is to be signs or commemorations As for any sealing or confirming or conferring of Grace he acknowledgeth nothing The same he saith particularly of Baptism Upon which grounds a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace may be called Sacraments as well as Baptism or the holy Eucharist if they be only signs and commemorations of a benefit If he except that Baptism and the Eucharist are of Divine institution But a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace are not He saith truly but nothing to his advantage or purpose seeing he deriveth all the Authority of the Word and Sacraments in respect of Subjects and all our obligation to them from the Authority of the Soveraign Magistrate without which these words repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus are but Counsel no Command And so a Serjeant at Arms his Mace and Baptism proceed both from
lawful for a man to value his own life or his limbs more than his God How much is he wiser than the three Children or Daniel himself who were thrown the first into a fiery Furnace the last into the Lions Denn because they refused to comply with the Idolatrous Decree of their Soveraign Prince T. H. Here also my words are truly cited But his Lordship understood not what the word Worship signifies and yet he knew what I meant by it To think highly of God as I had defined it is to honour him But to think is internal To Worship is to signifie that Honour which we inwardly give by signs external This understood as by his Lordship it was all he says to it is but a cavil J. D. A fourth Aphorism may be this That which is said in the Scripture it is better to obey God than man hath place in the Kingdom of God by Pact and not by Nature Why Nature it self doth teach us it is better to obey God than men Neither can he say that he intended this only of obedience in the use of indifferent actions and gestures in the service of God commanded by the Common-wealth for that is to obey both God and man But if divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is evermore better to obey God than man T. H. Here again appears his unskilfulness in reasoning Who denyes but it is alwayes and in all causes better to obey God than Man But there is no Law neither divine nor humane that ought to be taken for a Law till we know what it is and if a divine Law till we know that God hath commanded it to be kept We agree that the Scriptures are the Word of God But they are a Law by Pact that is to us who have been Baptized into the Covenant To all others it is an invitation only to their own benefit 'T is true that even nature suggesteth to us that the Law of God is to be obeyed rather than the Law of man But nature does not suggest to us that the Scripture is the Law of God much less how every Text of it ought to be interpreted But who then shall suggest this Dr. Bramhall I deny it Who then The stream of Divines Why so Am I that have the Scripture it self before my eyes obliged to venture my eternal life upon their interpretation how learned soever they pretend to be when no counter-security that they can give me will save me harmless If not the stream of Divines who then The lawful Assembly of Pastors or of Bishops But there can be no lawful Assembly in England without the Authority of the King The Scripture therefore what it is and how to be interpreted is made known unto us here by no other way than the Authority of our Soveraign Lord both in Temporals and Spirituals The Kings Majesty And where he has set forth no Interpretation there I am allowed to follow my own as well as any other man Bishop or not Bishop For my own part all that know me know also it is my opinion That the best government in Religion is by Episcopacy but in the King 's Right not in their own But my Lord of Derry not contented with this would have the utmost resolution of our Faith to be into the Doctrine of the Schools I do not think that all the Bishops be of his mind If they were I would wish them to stand in fear of that dreadful Sentence All covet all lose I must not let pass these words of his Lordship If divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is better evermore to obey God than man Where the King is a Christian believes the Scripture and hath the Legislative power both in Church and State and maketh no Laws concerning Christian Faith or divine Worship but by the Counsel of his Bishops whom he trusteth in that behalf if the Bishops counsel him aright what clashing can there be between the divine and humane Laws For if the Civil Law be against God's Law and the Bishops make it clearly appear to the King that it clasheth with divine Law no doubt he will mend it by himself or by the advice of his Parliament for else he is no professor of Christ's Doctrine and so the clashing is at an end But if they think that every opinion they hold though obscure and unnecessary to Salvation ought presently to be Law then there will be clashings innumerable not only of Laws but also of Swords as we have found it too true by late experience But his Lordship is still at this that there ought to be for the divine Laws that is to say for the interpretation of Scripture a Legislative power in the Church distinct from that of the King which under him they enjoy already This I deny Then for clashing between the Civil Laws of Infidels with the Law of God the Apostles teach that those their Civil Laws are to be obeyed but so as to keep their Faith in Christ entirely in their hearts which is an obedience easily performed But I do not believe that Augustus Caesar or Nero was bound to make the holy Scripture Law and yet unless they did so they could not attain to eternal life J. D. His fifth conclusion may be that the sharpest and most successful Sword in any War whatsoever doth give Soveraign Power and Authority to him that hath it to approve or reject all sorts of Theological Doctrines concerning the Kingdom of God not according to their truth or falshood but according to that influence which they have upon political affairs Hear him But because this Doctrine will appear to most men a novelty I do but propound it maintaining nothing in this or any other Paradox of Religion but attending the end of that dispute of the Sword concerning the Authority not yet amongst my Country-men decided by which all sorts of Doctrine are to be approved or rejected c. For the points of Doctrine concerning the Kingdom of God have so great influence upon the Kingdom of Man as not to be determined but by them that under God have the Soveraign Power Careat successibus opto Quisquis ab eventu facta notanda putat Let him evermore want success who thinketh actions are to be judged by their events This Doctrine may be plausible to those who desire to fish in troubled Waters But it is justly hated by those which are in Authority and all those who are lovers of peace and tranquillity The last part of this conclusion smelleth rankly of Jeroboam Now shall the Kingdom return to the house of David if this people go up to do Sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem whereupon the King took counsel and made two Calves of Gold and said unto them It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem behold thy Gods O Israel which brought thee out of the Land of Aegypt But by the
their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in Points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesome to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean the Gunpowder-Treason And upon that account the Papists of England have been looked upon as Men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Popes Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plessis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Popes Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the World and I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendome never perceiv'd it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner But if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the 8 th did Head of the Church within their own respective Dominions but not agreeing they let his power continue every one hoping to make use of it when there should be cause against his Neighbour B. Now as to that other distemper by Presbyterians how came their power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and the Reformed Churches could not choose but make every man to the best of his power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas before the Translation of them was not allowed nor any Man to read them but such as had express licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain number of Chapters a day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every Man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so What other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions Else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me seal'd up in Hebrew Greek and Latin and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches Peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late Kings Reign and did then appear to the disturbance of the Common-wealth But to return to the Story those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was profess'd and governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better States-men in Points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass Also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but they were defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not only the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market-Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church-Government Canons and Common-Prayer-Book so did the other make them in love with Democracy by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourses and Communication with People in the Country continually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyranny leaving the People to collect of themselves that this Tyranny was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Queen Elizabeth And though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief Leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less learned and the Gentlemen envying the Privy-Council whom they thought less wise than themselves For 't is a hard matter for Men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any ability requisite for the Government of a Common-wealth especially having read the glorious Histories and the sententious Politiques of the ancient popular Governments of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular
of the Jus Divinum of Bishops a thing which before the Reformation here was never allowed them by the Pope Two Jus Divinums cannot stand together in one Kingdom In the last place he mislikes that the Church should Excommunicate by Authority of the King that is to say by Authority of the Head of the Church But he tells not why He might as well mislike that the Magistrates of the Realm should execute their Offices by the Authority of the Head of the Realm His Lordship was in a great error if he thought such incroachments would add any thing to the Wealth Dignity Reverence or Continuance of his Order They are Pastors of Pastors but yet they are the Sheep of him that is on earth their soveraign Pastor and he again a Sheep of that supream Pastor which is in Heaven And if they did their pastoral Office both by Life and Doctrine as they ought to do there could never arise any dangerous Rebellion in the Land But if the people see once any ambition in their Teachers they will sooner learn that than any other Doctrine and from Ambition proceeds Rebellion J. D. It may be some of T. H. his Disciples desire to know what hopes of Heavenly joyes they have upon their Masters Principles They may hear them without any great contentment There is no mention in Scripture nor ground in reason of the Coelum Empyraeum that is the Heaven of the Blessed where the Saints shall live eternally with God And again I have not found any Text that can probably be drawn to prove any Ascention of the Saints into Heaven that is to say into any Coelum Empyraeum But he concludeth positively that Salvation shall be upon earth when God shall Raign at the coming of Christ in Jerusalem And again In short the Kingdom of God is a civil Kingdom c. called also the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Glory All the Hobbians can hope for is to be restored to the same condition which Adam was in before his fall So saith T.H. himself From whence may be inferred that the Elect after the Resurrection shall be restored to the estate wherein Adam was before he had sinned As for the beatifical vision he defineth it to be a word unintelligible T. H. This Coelum Empyraeum for which he pretendeth so much zeal where is it in the Scripture where in the Book of Common Prayer where in the Canons where in the Homilies of the Church of England or in any part of our Religion What has a Christian to do with such Language Nor do I remember it in Aristotle Perhaps it may be in some Schoolman or Commentator on Aristotle and his Lordship makes it in English the Heaven of the Blessed as if Empyraeum signified That which belongs to the Blessed St. Austin says better that after the day of Judgment all that is not Heaven shall be Hell Then for Beatifical vision how can any man understand it that knows from the Scripture that no man ever saw or can see God Perhaps his Lordship thinks that the happiness of the Life to come is not real but a Vision As for that which I say Lev. pag. 345. I have answered to it already J. D. But considering his other Principles I do not marvel much at his extravagance in this point To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum or Heaven of the Blessed serve in his judgment who maketh the blessed Angels that are the Inhabitants of that happy Mansion to be either Idols of the brain that is in plain English nothing or thin subtil fluid bodies destroying the Angelical nature The universe being the aggregate of all bodies there is no real part thereof that is not also body And elsewhere Every part of the Vniverse is Body and that which is not Body is no part of the Vniverse And because the Vniverse is all that which is no part of it is nothing and consequently no where How By this Doctrine he maketh not only the Angels but God himself to be nothing Neither doth he salve it at all by supposing erroneously Angels to be corporeal Spirits and by attributing the name of incorporeal Spirit to God as being a name of more honour in whom we consider not what Attribute best expresseth his nature which is incomprehensible but what best expresseth our desire to honour him Though we be not able to comprehend perfectly what God is yet we are able perfectly to comprehend what God is not that is he is not imperfect and therefore he is not finite and consequently he is not corporeal This were a trim way to honour God indeed to honour him with a lye If this that he say here be true That every part of the Vniverse is a Body and whatsoever is not a Body is nothing Then by this Doctrine if God be not a Body God is nothing not an incorporeal Spirit but one of the Idols of the Brain a meer nothing though they think they dance under a Net and have the blind of Gods incomprehensibility between them and discovery T. H. This of Incorporeal substance he urged before and there I answered it I wonder he so often rolls the same stone He is like Sysiphus in the Poets Hell that there rolls a heavy stone up a hill which no sooner he brings to day-light then it slips down again to the bottom and serves him so perpetually For so his Lordship rolls this and other questions with much adoe till they come to the light of Scripture and then they vanish and he vexing sweating and railing goes to 't again to as little purpose as before From that I say of the Universe he infers that I make God to be nothing But infers it absurdly He might indeed have inferr'd that I make him a Corporeal but yet a pure Spirit I mean by the Universe the Aggregate of all things that have being in themselves and so do all men else And because God has a being it follows that he is either the whole Universe or part of it Nor does his Lordship go about to disprove it but only seems to wonder at it J. D. To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum serve in his Judgment who denyeth the immortality of the Soul The Doctrine is now and hath been a long time far otherwise namely that every man hath eternity of life by nature in as much as his Soul is immortal Who supposeth that when a man dyeth there remaineth nothing of him but his Carkase who maketh the word Soul in holy Scripture to signifie always either the Life or the Living Creature And expoundeth the casting of Body and Soul into Hell-fire to be the casting of Body and Life into Hell-fire Who maketh this Orthodox truth that the Souls of men are Substances distinct from their Bodies to be an error contracted by the contagion of the Demonology of the Greeks and a window that gives entrance to the dark Doctrine of eternal torments Who expoundeth these words
just disposition of Almighty God this Policy turned to a sin and was the utter destruction of Jeroboam and his Family It is not good jesting with edge-tools nor playing with holy things Where men make their greatest fastness many times they find most danger T. H. His Lordship either had a strange Conscience or understood not English Being at Paris when there was no Bishop nor Church in England and every man writ what he pleased I resolved when it should please God to restore the Authority Ecclesiastical to submit to that Authority in whatsoever it should determine This his Lordship construes for a temporizing and too much indifferency in Religion and says further that the last part of my words do smell of Jeroboam To the contrary I say my words were modest and such as in duty I ought to use And I profess still that whatsoever the Church of England the Church I say not every Doctor shall forbid me to say in matter of Faith I shall abstain from saying it excepting this point That Jesus Christ the Son of God dyed for my sins As for other Doctrins I think it unlawful if the Church define them for any Member of the Church to contradict them J. D. His sixth Paradox is a rapper the Civil Laws are the Rules of good and evil just and unjust honest and dishonest and therefore what the Lawgiver commands that is to be accounted good what he forbids bad And a little after before Empires were just and unjust were not as whose nature is Relative to a Command every action in its own nature is indifferent That it is just or unjust proceedeth from the right of him that commandeth Therefore lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them To this add his definition of a sin that which one doth or omitteth saith or willeth contrary to the reason of the Common-wealth that is the Civil Laws Where by the Laws he doth not understand the Written Laws elected and approved by the whole Common-wealth but the verbal Commands or Mandates of him that hath the Soveraign Power as we find in many places of his Writings The Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that is endowed with Soveraign Power in the Common-wealth concerning the future actions of his Subjects And the Civil Laws are fastned to the Lips of that man who hath the Soveraign Power Where are we In Europe or in Asia Where they ascribed a Divinity to their Kings and to use his own Phrase made them Mortal Gods O King live for ever Flatterers are the common Moths of great Pallaces where Alexander's friends are more numerous than the King's friends But such gross palpable pernicious flattery as this is I did never meet with so derogatory both to piety and policy What deserved he who should do his uttermost endeavour to poyson a common Fountain whereof all the Common-wealth must drink He doth the same who poisoneth the mind of a Soveraign Prince Are the Civil Laws the Rules of good and bad just and unjust honest and dishonest And what I pray your are the Rules of the Civil Law it self Even the Law of God and Nature If the Civil Laws swerve from these more authentick Laws they are Lesbian Rules What the Lawgiver commands is to be accounted good what he forbids bad This was just the garb of the Athenian Sophisters as they are described by Plato Whatsoever pleased the great Beast the Multitude they call holy and just and good And whatsoever the great Beast disliked they called evil unjust prophane But he is not yet arrived at the height of his flattery Lawful Kings make those things which they command just by commanding them At other times when he is in his right wits he talketh of sufferings and expecting their reward in Heaven And going to Christ by Martyrdome And if he had the fortitude to suffer death he should do better But I fear all this was but said in jest How should they expect their reward in Heaven if his Doctrine be true that there is no reward in Heaven Or how should they be Martyrs if his Doctrine be true that none can be Martyrs but those who conversed with Christ upon earth He addeth Before Empires were just and unjust were not Nothing could be written more false in his sence more dishonourable to God more inglorious to the humane nature That God should create Man and leave him presently without any Rules to his own ordering of himself as the Ostridg leaveth her Eggs in the sand But in truth there have been Empires in the World ever since Adam And Adam had a Law written in his heart by the finger of God before there was any Civil Law Thus they do endeavour to make goodness and justice and honesty and conscience and God himself to be empty names without any reality which signifie nothing further than they conduce to a man's interest Otherwise he would not he could not say That every action as it is invested with its circumstances is indifferent in its own nature T. H. My sixth Paradox he calls a Rapper A Rapper a Swapper and such like terms are his Lordships elegancies But let us see what this Rapper is 'T is this The Civil Laws are the Rules of Good and Evil Just and Unjust Honest and Dishonest Truly I see no other Rules they have The Scriptures themselves were made Law to us here by the Authority of the Common-wealth and are therefore part of the Law Civil If they were Laws in their own nature then were they Laws over all the World and men were obliged to obey them in America as soon as they should be shown there though without a Miracle by a Frier What is Injust but the Transgression of a Law Law therefore was before Unjust And the Law was made known by Soveraign Power before it was a Law Therefore Soveraign Power was antecedent both to Law and Injustice Who then made Injust but Soveraign Kings or Soveraign Assemblies Where is now the wonder of this Rapper That Lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them Just and Unjust were surely made if the King made them not who made them else For certainly the breach of a Civil Law is a sin against God Another Calumny which he would fix upon me is That I make the King 's verbal Commands to be Laws How so Because I say the Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that hath the Soveraign Power concerning the future Actions of his Subjects What verbal Command of a King can arrive at the ears of all his Subjects which it must do ere it be a Law without the Seal of the Person of the Common-wealth which is here the Great Seal of England Who but his Lordship ever denyed that the command of England was a Law to English
General Councils the Power of the Roman Church grew up a pace and either by the negligence or weakness of the succeeding Emperors the Pope did what he pleased in Religion There was no Doctrine which tended to the Power Ecclesiastical or to the Reverence of the Clergy the contradiction whereof was not by one Council or another made Heresie and punished arbitrarily by the Emperors with Banishment or Death And at last Kings themselves and Commonwealths unless they purged their Dominions of Hereticks were Excommunicated Interdicted and their Subjects let loose upon them by the Pope insomuch as to an ingenuous and serious Christian there was nothing so dangerous as to enquire concerning his own Salvation of the Holy Scripture the careless cold Christian was safe and the skilful Hypocrite a Saint But this is a Story so well known as I need not insist upon it any longer but proceed to the Hereticks here in England and what Punishments were ordained for them by Acts of Parliament All this while the Penal Laws against Hereticks were such as the several Princes and States in their own Dominions thought fit to enact The Edicts of the Emperors made their Punishments Capital but for the manner of the Execution left it to the Prefects of Provinces And when other Kings and States intended according to the Laws of the Roman Church to extirpate Hereticks they ordained such Punishment as they pleased The first Law that was here made for the punishments of Hereticks called Lollards and mentioned in the Statutes was in the fifth year of the Reign of Richard the Second occasioned by the Doctrine of John Wickliff and his Followers which Wickliff because no Law was yet ordained for his punishment in Parliament by the favour of John of Gaunt the King's Son during the Reign of Edward the third had escaped But in the fifth year of the next King which was Richard the Second there passed an Act of Parliament to this effect That Sheriffs and some others should have Commissions to apprehend such as were certified by the Prelates to be Preachers of Heresie their Fautors Maintainers and Abettors and to hold them in strong Prison till they should justifie themselves according to the Law of Holy Church So that hitherto there was no Law in England by which a Heretick could be put to Death or otherways punished than by imprisoning him till he was reconciled to the Church After this in the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fourth Son of John of Gaunt by whom Wickliffe had been favoured and who in his aspiring to the Crown had needed the good Will of the Bishops was made a Law in the second Year of his Reign wherein it was Enacted That every Ordinary may convene before him and imprison any person suspected of Heresie and that an obstinate Heretick shall be burnt before the People In the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fifth in his Second year was made an Act of Parliament wherein it is declared that the intent of Hereticks called Lollards was to subvert the Christian Faith the Law of God the Church and the Realm And that an Heretick convict should forfeit all his Fee-simple Lands Goods and Chattels besides the Punishment of Burning Again in the Five and Twentieth year of King Henry the Eighth it was Enacted That an Heretick convict shall abjure his Heresies and refusing so to do or relapsing shall be burnt in open place for example of others This Act was made after the putting down of the Pope's Authority And by this it appears that King Henry the Eighth intended no farther alteration in Religion than the recovering of his own Right Ecclesiastical But in the first year of his Son King Edward the sixth was made an Act by which were repealed not only this Act but also all former Acts concerning Doctrines or matters of Religion So that at this time there was no Law at all for the punishment of Hereticks Again in the Parliament of the first and second year of Queen Mary this Act of 1 Ed. 6. was not repealed but made useless by reviving the Statute of 25 Hen. 8. and freely put it in execution insomuch as it was Debated Whether or no they should proceed upon that Statute against the Lady Elizabeth the Queens Sister The Lady Elizabeth not long after by the Death of Queen Mary coming to the Crown in the fifth year of her Reign by Act of Parliament repealed in the first place all the Laws Ecclesiastical of Queen Mary with all other former Laws concerning the punishments of Hereticks nor did she enact any other punishments in their place In the second place it was Enacted That the Queen by her Letters Patents should give a Commission to the Bishops with certain other persons in her Majesties Name to execute the Power Ecclesiastical in which Commission the Commissioners were forbidden to adjudge any thing to be Heresie which was not declared to be Heresie by some of the first four General Councels But there was no mention made of General Councels but only in that branch of the Act which Authorised that Commission commonly called The High Commission nor was there in that Commission any thing concerning how Hereticks were to be punished but it was granted to them that they might declare or not declare as they pleased to be Heresie or not Heresie any of those Doctrines which had been Condemned for Heresie in the first four General Councels So that during the time that the said High Commission was in being there was no Statute by which a Heretick could be punished otherways than by the ordinary Censures of the Church nor Doctrine accounted Heresie unless the Commissioners had actually declared and published That all that which was made Heresie by those Four Councels should be Heresie also now But I never heard that any such Declaration was made either by Proclamation or by Recording it in Churches or by publick Printing as in penal Laws is necessary the breaches of it are excused by ignorance Besides if Heresie had been made Capital or otherwise civilly punishable either the Four General Councels themselves or at least the Points condemned in them ought to have been Printed or put into Parish Churches in English because without it no man could know how to beware of offending against them Some men may perhaps ask whether no body were Condemned and Burnt for Heresie during the time of the High Commission I have heard there were But they which approve such executions may peradventure know better grounds for them than I do but those grounds are very well worthy to be enquired after Lastly in the seventeenth year of the Reign of King Charles the First shortly after that the Scots had Rebelliously put down the Episcopal Government in Scotland the Presbyterians of England endeavoured the same here The King though he saw the Rebels ready to take the Field would not condescend to that but yet in hope to appease them was content to pass an
some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's Party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such a one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading The Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way and yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them which were the most diligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tryed by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches which are his Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgement of him in his Essence and his Attributes and in the believing of his Word His Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture receiv'd for Canonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it receiv'd by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal Party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to Gods Will. Did any of them nay did any man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandements which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damn'd And for their preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to Gods revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not disobedience but error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisie hath this great Prerogative above other sins that it cannot be accus'd A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty as well I think as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have God's House free from Profanation To have Tithes duly paid and Offerings accepted To have the Sabbath-day kept holy the Word preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duly administred But is not keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to the Honour of God If it be the Presbyterians fail in that A. Why so They kept some Holy-days and they had Fasts amongst themselves though not upon the same days that the Church ordains but when they thought fit as when it pleased God to give the King any notable Victory and they govern'd themselves in this Point by the Holy Scripture as they pretend to believe and who can prove they do not believe so B. Let us pass over all other Duties and come to that Duty which we owe to the King and consider whether the Doctrine taught by those Divines which adhered to the King be such in that Point as may justifie the Presbyterians that incited the People to Rebellion for that 's the thing you call in question Concerning our Duty to our Rulers he hath these words An Obedience we must pay either active or passive the active in the case of all lawful Commands that is whenever the Magistrate commands something which is not contrary to some Command of God we are then bound to act according to that Command of the Magistrate to do the things he requires but when he enjoyns any thing contrary to what God hath commanded we are not then to pay him this Active Obedience we may nay we must refuse thus to act yet here we must be very well assur'd that the thing is so contrary and not pretend Conscience for a Cloak of stubbornness we are in that Case to obey God rather than Men but even this is a season for the Passive Obedience we must patiently suffer what he inflicts on us for such refusal and not to secure our selves rise up against him B. What is there in this to give colour to the late Rebellion A. They will say they did it in obedience to God in as much as they did believe it was according to the Scripture out of which they will bring Examples perhaps of David and his adherents that resisted King Saul and of the Prophets afterward that vehemently from time to time preached against the Idolatrous Kings of Israel and Judah Saul was their lawful King and yet they paid him neither Active nor Passive Obedience for they did put themselves into a posture of defence against him though David himself spared his Person and so did the Presbyterians put into their Commissions to their General that they should spare the King's Person Besides you cannot doubt but that they who in the Pulpit did animate the People to take Arms in defence of the then Parliament alleadged Scripture that is the Word of God for it If it be lawful then for Subjects to resist the King when he commands any thing that is against the Scripture that is contrary to the Command of God and to be Judge of the meaning of the Scripture it is impossible that the Life of any King or the Peace of any Christian Kingdom can be long secure It is this Doctrine that divides a Kingdom within it self whatsoever the Men be Loyal or Rebels that write or preach it publickly And thus you see that if those seditious Ministers be tryed by this Doctrine they will come off well enough B. I see it and wonder at People that having never spoken with God Almighty nor knowing one more than another what he hath said when the Laws and the Preacher disagree should so keenly follow the Minister for the most part an Ignorant though a ready Tongu'd Scholar rather than the Laws that were made by the King with the consent of the Peers and the Commons of the Land A. Let us examine his words a little nearer First Concerning Passive Obedience When a Thief hath broken the Laws and according to the Law is therefore executed can any man understand that this suffering of his is an obedience to the Law Every Law is a Command to do or to forbear neither of these is fulfilled by suffering If any Suffering can be called Obedience it must be such as is voluntary for no involuntary Action can be counted a submission to the Law He that means that his suffering should be taken for obedience must not only not resist but also not fly nor hide himself to avoid his punishment and who is there amongst them that discourses of Passive Obedience when his Life is in extream danger