France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisy of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Shorthand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democraâ—ical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the world And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his Power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his Power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas beâ—â—â— the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express Licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to
it is for a State to have their Subjects confess their secret thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit Sins absolutely but only with a condition of Repentance yet the people were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent Sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was performed in the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a point very difficult for a man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was Transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insist upon the dulness not only of common people but also of Kings and their Councelors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviours Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Pope's Authority they had many fine points in their Ecclesiastical Policy conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time for then it was the Order came up of Preaching-Friars that wandred up and down with power to Preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the people nothing that might lessen their obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak judgments confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or works of Piety and necessary for the remission of their Sins B. I do not remember that I read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private man to call the people together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendom I believe the Heathen K. foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the Preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the people and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperour Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Phylosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperour by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latine Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monastries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Dicipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easy to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the Maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Phylosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then what was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in
others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to
Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Antient Authors that speake of the formes of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancesters the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Arguments of Right but only examples of fact which by the Ambition of Potent Subjects have been oftner unjust then otherwise and for those Saxons or Angels that in Antient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of Divers Petty German Lords and states such as was the Graecian Army in the Trojan War without other Obligations than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness nor were these Lords for the most part the soveraigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity that when they had conquer'd any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof the rest should have greater Priviledges than the Common People and Souldiers amongst which Priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Council with him that hath the Soveraignty in matters of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Soveraign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the Kings Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those honours and places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of Discreet and Wise men of the Kingdom and hear their Councils and make them Judges of all Causes that during their Sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever at his pleasure power to Dissolve them The Normans also that Descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this Priviledge have the Lords to be of your Kings great Council and when they were assembled to be the highest of the Kings Court of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only name of Baron a name receiv'd from the Antient Gauls amongst whom that name signified the King's Man or rather one of his great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Council when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's great Council A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some Discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Council though they were not Lords But that is nothing to the House of Commons the Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the mis behaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time of Henry the third the Lords were Descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France But after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue fail'd Titularly only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being bound no longer to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Council And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased But I do not find that they were part of the Kings Council at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other But I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for Redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Souldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castle whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had Designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently lest it to the Chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got togeter a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The Manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a Change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in
go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so what other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latine and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the Disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and Governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not onely the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the Concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church Government Canons and Common Prayer Book so did the other make them in love with Democracie by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourse and Communication with people in the Country continnually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyrany leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyrany was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less Learned And the Gentlemen envying the Privy Council whom they thought less wise than themselves for 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any Ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politick of the Ancient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not Publickly Preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Fryers had formerly done upon working days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a likeing of their Doctrines and good Opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching They so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have Acted the part of a right godly man better then these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any Ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the Vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to Despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the Anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them then to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther