not for us to distinguish or restrain it He is the Minister of God for good Vers 4. Ergo For this good viz. to have a care of Religion and to punish such as trouble it by their Schisms and Heresies And therefore 6. I deny the Consequence For Posito uno Medio non negantur reliqua It followeth not That if God serve himself of some means in the Church Ergo He serveth himself of any other means viz. of Civill Authority about the Church and out of the Church That were as if I should say The internall Causes as Materia Forma are necessary to the Generation of a man Ergo The Externall as the Efficient and Finall viz. God and man are not necessary M. S. 2. The Ministers of the Church must perform their Office with meeknesse 2 Tim. 2.24 Ergo They must not threaten men with delivering them over to the Civill Magistrate A. S. I answer to the Antecedent They must perform their duty not onely with meeknesse but also with severity when necessity requireth it as we see in Saint Paul 2. The Text 2 Tim. 2.24 speaketh onely of meeknesse in teaching In meeknesse saith the Apostle instructing those that oppose themselves if peradventure God will give them repentance 3. It onely saith that they must use meeknesse when men are docilo when there is any hope of Repentance and not with pertinacious Heretiques and Schismatiques of whom we cannot expect Repentance 4. I deny the Consequence When the Ministers of the Church threaten them to deliver them over unto the Civill Magistrate they may do that also with meeknesse Neither is such a proceeding contrary to meeknesse for the meekest man of the World may accuse his Party before the Civill Magistrate and yet not be thought inhumane or cruell 5. Thus All being beaten down all that he builds upon this ruinous Foundation must needs fall to ground M. S. his third Reason That which is a speciall gift of God and whereof no man is capable by his own industry the want of it being in it self a judgement of God and withall no wayes prejudiciall or hurtfull unto others should not expose him to further punishment and misery But Repentance to the acknowledgement of the Truth is a speciall gift of God and the want thereof a judgement of God c. Ergo. A. S. 1. I deny the first Proposition For if he be bound to have it and had the faculty and sufficient means to have had it and to keep it after that he had it or might have it and if by his own fault he want it he cannot excuse himself neither from the Obligation to have nor from the Punishment due to him for the want of it as our Divines teach against the Arminians 2. I deny the Assumption for it is prejudiciall to others by the ill example he gives and by the malice proceeding from thence that induces others to the same sin to false Doctrines Schisms and Heresies 3. This Argument proveth not M. S. his Thesis viz. That the Civill Magistrate should not punish Heretiques and Schismatiques or that they should be tolerated in the State And therefore 4. we may grant him all the Argument Neither doth the Civill Magistrate punish any man for want of Repentance or for his ignorance which are in the minde and will and consequently unknown to him but for the pertinacious Externall Profession of them in so far forth as they trouble the peace of the Church and the State Neither refuseth he to tolerate ignorance or want of repentance yea if there be nothing worse in them both the Civill Magistrate and the Ministers of Christ must pitty them and travell for their instruction and amendment This is far from proving either a Toleration of the Publike Exercise of Hereticall Doctrines or of Schisms or that the Civill Magistrate hath not power to punish them M. S. his fourth Reason being put in Form will be thus That which maketh men worse and Hypocrites to professe outwardly what they beleeve not in their Consciences is not lawfull But Externall Compulsion of Hereticks Schismaticks c. in matters of Religion made by the Civill Magistrate is such Ergo It is unlawfull and consequently not to be tolerated A. S. I answer to the first Proposition If it make men worse per Accidens not of it self but in vertue of some Accident annexed to the person that becometh worse it is false If it do it per se by its own vertue and efficacy it is true But then the Assumption is false for the Civill Magistrate in punishing Hereticks and Schismaticks c. maketh them not worse per se for neither is it finis Operantis or Operationis since neither he intends to make them worse but better nor tends his Operation i. e. his Iudgement and Command to make them at all ill much lesse to make them worse since the effect of it per se is onely to imprison their bodies to fine them or if they merit it to exile them or take their lives which produceth no morall ill but a great good viz. a hinderance of them to vent abroad their Heresies and Schisms So it maketh them not Hypocrites per se but onely they per se make themselves Hypocrites They are bound to suffer themselves to be taught the Truth so to beleeve it and so they shall not be Hypocrites M. S. replieth That he stands already engaged in a greater band hereunto viz. His peace with God and the safety of his Soul then suffering temporally from the Civill Power A. S. Your erroneous Conscience can breed no true and reall Obligation or Engagement against God 1. For you are bound and obliged to God to cast away your Ignorance and ill Conscience 2. What if your Erroneous Conscience dictate you that you must kill the King as that of Ravalliack did to him in France to kill Henry the fourth and that of the Jesuites and Priests in England did them to blow up the Parliament and many Papists of their own Religion Must you I pray obey the dictate of such a Conscience 3. Away with such wicked Consciences and to the Law and Prophets if you be a Protestant 4. Either that band is laid upon you by God or the Devill But it cannot be laid upon you by God for he cannot lay a band upon you to serve the Devill or to despight himself for so he should be the Author of sin nor by the Devill for then the band laid upon you to serve him should be greater then that which God hath laid upon you in his Word to serve him It may be said That so long as my Erroneous Conscience lasteth I must obey it A. S. I answer you must obey it as he who is captive under sin must obey sin being a slave unto sin that hath voluntarily rendered him such but he unjustly rendered himself a slave to sin and unjustly in vertue thereof remaineth a sinner and obeyeth it Some will Answer 7.
The Second Part of the DVPLY TO M. S. alias Two Brethren WHEREIN Are maintained The Kings Parliaments and all Civil Magistrates Authority about the Church Subordination of Ecclesiasticall Judicatories refuted the Independency of particular Congregations Licentiousnesse of wicked Conscience and Toleration of all sorts of most detestable Schismes Heresies and Religions as Idolatry Paganisme Turcisme Judaisme Arrianisme Brownisme Anabaptisme c. which M. S. maintain in their Book WITH A brief Epitome and Refutation of all the whole INDEPENDENT-Government Most humbly submitted to the Kings most excellent Majestie To the most Honorable Houses of Parliament The most Reverend and Learned Divines of the Assembly And all the Protestant Churches in this Island and abroad By ADAM STEUART Octob. 3. 1644. Imprimatur JA CRANFORD London Printed for Iohn Field and are to be sold at his house upon Addle-hill neer Baynards-Castle 1644. TO THE Most High and Illustrious CHARLES LODOWIKE By the Grace of God Count Palatine of the Rhine Archidapifer and Prince Elector of the Sacred Empire Duke of Bavarta c. IT is ordinary with Writers in their Dedicatory Epistles highly to extoll and commend the Persons and Vertues of those to whom they Dedicate their Books for the most part little heeding whether the Praises they give them be just or unjust deserved or undeserved And if any one chance to ask the reason they usually answer That they Characterize and Paint them out much like Xenophon his Cyrus not altogether such as they are but as they should be As for my self I may safely and ingenuously say that I am very far from these mens courses or any thing at all that looketh that way My main aym hereby is rather to declare unto others then to Your Highnesse the true Motives and Reasons that induced me to Dedicate this Piece unto Your Highnesse The first and chiefest was for that the Subject of this Treatise is concerning the Reformation of Abuses and the Extirpation of Schisms and Heresies in the Church of God Now then Your Highnesse's most Illustrious Predecessors have been the first of all other Princes of Germany or else where that received the Reformed Religion in the greatest Puritie of it And not onely so but who from time to time have been the surest Asylum and Refuge to all the Saints of God that suffered for it yea and a Terrour also to all such as persecuted it And this the great Forces wherewith so potently they assisted the French as also the States of the Low-Countreys so oppressed by those who so unjustly have oppressed Your Highnesse manifesteth so abundantly that whoever knoweth it not must be born and bred with the Antipodes and be altogether a Stranger in the whole Christian World What also those Illustrious Princes of blessed Memory Your Father and Grand-Father did for the old Duke of Bouillion in all Christian Civill and Military Vertues the very Hero's of His time I my self and many others have bin Eye-witnesses And as for Your Princely Vertues I know that Your Highnesse taketh no pleasure to hear them so highly commended as they merit neither is my Pen able to do it and if I should attempt any such thing I am assured I should come as far short as he who would go about to Paint the Sun with a Coal Neverthelesse this I hold my self bound to say unto the World That I have heard sundry of the prime men of this Island both Noblemen and Ecclesiastiques yea those of the most Learned and Godly of them extoll very Highly Your Princely Vertues and it is no small praise and commendation to be praised and commended by those who themselves are so praise worthy and commendable To whom then should I rather Dedicate this Book that concerneth Reformation then to his Highnesse whose Illustrious Ancestors are so celebrated in all Histories for promoting of the blessed Work of Reformation And this as I said before God knoweth I say not to flatter Your Highnesse but to the end that Your Highnesse having so great and worthy Examples of so Heroick Vertues and those not far sought but found at home you may thereby be encouraged against all difficulties to go on in that Royall Way that they have scored out unto you Your Afflictions verily are great and such as I cannot think upon but with a bleeding heart and that no lesse for our selves then for Your Highnesse for alasse what a check and affront is this put upon all the Protestant Churches to see Him brought so low whose Predecessors put them so high even when they were at their lowest ebbe What a dishonour must it needs be to the three Kingdoms to see the Kings Majesties Nephew reduced to such an Estate What serveth our Alliance for What esteem can Forraign Nations make of us who esteem no more our own Blood Truely God hath put your greatest Enemies very low Some also who formerly have hindered that seasonable Assistance that we should have afforded you are now themselves on the suffering hand And who knoweth whether this be not one of the present quarrels God hath against us at this time Oh! that God would pitty us so far as that we could but once learn to pitty our selves then might His Majestie be a glorious King we most happy Subjects and You Right Illustrious Prince soon be restored to Your Ancient Soveraignties and Dominions so long and so unjustly usurped upon You by Yours ours and all Protestant Princes open and professed Enemy And now it seemeth that God hath already prepared the way if we could prepare our selves to enter into it We see how the Lord hath powred out his vengeance upon the House of Austria and raised up against it the French whose Predecessors stand so many wayes obliged to Your Highnesse's House and that of late memory yea in our own times We have seen heretofore what hath been the King of Denmarks zeal in this Cause and I doubt not but the States of the Low-Countreys would contribute as much as any other to put down their Immortall Enemy and to raise up again their old Confederate and dearest Friend If at this present when other Princes are in Arms one against another we could serve our selves of such an occasion to make a Peace here at home we might easily procure an happy Agreement amongst our Friends and Confederates abroad so we might make our selves no lesse considerable every where by such a Peace then now by our Distractions we are inconsiderable to all the World But this I leave and return to Your Highnesse In a word my aym in pleading here for a Reformation is to let all true Protestants know how this Dispute is due to Your Highnesse and how they stand all bound in Conscience to take to heart the Cause of such a Prince whose Ancestors were the first Reformed and truest Reformers and who Himself in the midst of so many Temptations so constantly continueth in their wayes If they should which God forbid forget so great
they have entred into the same Covenant stand equally obliged to reform Religion according to their power Now God hath given them the power to reforme it in punishing Hereticks and Schismaticks according to their demerits which if either We or They doe not we are forsworne and God one day will call us to an account CHAP. IV. Containing our Adversaries Evasions NOw what sayes M. S. to all this who was so desirous of some proofes from Scripture His first Answer is That A. S. bringeth those Examples for want of better Arguments A. S. Rep. 1. And so he jeereth Gods Word 2. Wherefore are not Arguments drawne from Gods Word good enough in matter of Religion 3. These Examples are approved in Scripture and therefore may very well have the force of a Command M. S. 2. His second Answer is that none of the good Kings of Iudah ever offered any violence to the true Prophets of the Lord. A. S. Repl. Neither say I any such thing only I say they had a Royall or Politicall Power which was extrinsecall unto the Church or of another nature as your Apologists speake to conserve the true Religion and in case of corruption to reforme it M. S. his third Answer proves nothing for the persecuting annoying crushing disgracing banishing fining the Apologists whom himselfe more then once or twice acknowledgeth for very Pious Godly and Learned men A. S. Neither bring I them to prove any such thing I hope they shall prove no false Prophets Hereticks Schismaticks to be so dealt with 2. Only I bring these Passages to prove that the Civill Magistrate may and is bound in duty to punish all false Prophets Hereticks and Schismaticks whoever they be And howbeit they could perchance finde favour enough to establish themselves in one time by a Princes Authority yet notwithstanding all that another or the very same Prince upon better information yea or a subsequent Parliament may nay ought to revoke any such favour so granted them and to punish the Sectaries as those good Kings did Whereas he saith that I acknowledge the Apologists for Pious Persons I Answer Heretofore I judged so of them by a judgement of Charity which beleeveth all things but I would pray him and them both under pretext of such a charitable Iudgement of mine not to be too licentious in broaching or publishing of erronious Opinions least they make me to write some Booke of Retractations which he and they will certainly force me to doe if they continue Neither shall I be ashamed if they deceive me but I hope better things of them And God forbid that they should goe on upon his violent course rather to sufferdeath then to change God change his heart and I hope in his Mercy he shall doe it M. S. 4. He saith Neither did any of those Kings ever compell any man to the Iewish Religion nor yet to professe the Iewish Religion against their judgements A. S. They could not compell their heart or will but at leastwise they hindred them from the Externall Acts of idolatry and other Religions so far forth as death could hinder them as appeared from all those Texts They could also compell their externall actions read the members of their body to give no offence unto the Church of God If they could not cut off an ill will yet could they cut away an ill tongue M. S. 5. Answereth It was permitted to Persons of other Nations to live amongst them without being Circumcised yea or without smarting for want A. S. But he bringeth no Text of Scripture to prove that when the Iewes were a free people and had good Rulers they then permitted any such uncircumcised men to live amongst them 2. Neither doth this any thing against my Argument which only proveth a Politicall Power in the Civill Magistrate who is Extrinsecall to the Church whereby he might punish Idolaters false Prophets and Priests for their Idolatries false Doctrine and Worship 3. If he did it not he sinned against the Covenant 4. However such might live amongst them for some time uncircumcised yet could they not be Inhabitants or true Denizens without Circumcision 5. Much lesse was the Religion of uncircumcised Persons tolerated amongst them in the times of good Judges or Kings as appearech by all those Texts 6. But least of all had they power to write Bookes against their Religion as the Independents doe here in face of the Parliament and the Assembly against ours 7. Yea they could not so much as take a stranger to their Wife as we read Ezra chap. 9. and 10. and in the Covenant Neh. 10. ver 30. and 13.23 24 25. where it is said that Nehemiah smote them for such Marriages and pluckt off their haire v. 27 28. And Ezra chap. 10. made them to put away their strange Wives and such as were borne of them Wherefore then may not the Christian Magistrate doe as much M. S. 6. Answ Nor doe we ever read that ever they attempted any thing against any Sectaries or Schismaticks as A. S. would call them which yet abounded in great variety and numbers amongst them as Scribes or Pharisees or Herodians or Persons of any other Sect in the Profession of the Iewish Religion that lived peaceably in their State Idolatry and Idolaters were as it seemes the adequate Object of their coercive power in matters of Religion A. S. Repl. But we read that they attempted something against false Prophets if death be any attempt against them as all the Texts cited by me shew evidently 2. I deny your Consequence we read it not Ergo it was not for we cannot argue à testimonio negativè yea not of Scripture unlesse it be in things necessary to salvation such as are not Histories of particular facts 3. The cause wherefore we read it not is because under good Iudges or Kings they were never tolerated ill Kings would not punish them but their examples are not to be drawne in Consequence 4. As for the Scribes Pharisees and Herodians no wonder if they were not punished 1. For these Sects begun very late not long before the comming of Christ when the Religion was mightily corrupted which Christ came to reforme 2. Because the Iewes were not then a free people neither had they the Civill Power absolutely in their owne hands 3. They had no good Rulers 4. No more were the Sadduces punished who denyed Gods Providence the Resurrection of the Body the Immortality of the Soule and all spirituall natures as some testifie of them and yet they were more punished by Gods Law then Idolaters since their errour was greater so should the Herodians have been punished since they tooke Herod to be the Messias and that he should come againe after that he had been strucken by the Angell and yet they were not punished 5. The Idolaters were to be punished and yet they lived in profession of the Iewish Religion for they apostatized not It is false that the Idolatry was the adequate Object
good of the Church which he would have to belong to the Parliament and all others 2. An Authoritative power to conclude say and set down what shall must or ought to be done against all contradiction in matters of Religion and this he grants to God alone and addeth If the Presbyterians demand such a Directive power let them ask the Crown Throne and Kingdome of Christ also To this A. S. saith that all men may grant it to be true if they claimed any soveraigne Royall authoritative power But if they claime only a Ministeriall power it is as great a sacrilege to deny them it as blasphemy in them to arrogate the other since they are Gods Ministers and Ambassadors for Christ 3. A prudentiall faculty or ability to direct order or prescribe whether to a mans selfe or to others what in a way of reason humane conjecture or probability is best and fittest to be done followed or imbraced in matters of Religion and this he grants to the Parliament to many private Members of particular Churches and to Presbyteries and Synods also howsoever with a restriction But in all these his Conjectures he hath no waies guessed at my mind for by a Directive power however I meane a prudentiall Prudence yet meane I not a private prudentiall Prudence which may be found in Midwives Maid-servants and VVater-men for in granting such a Power to the Parliament and Ecclesiasticall Senates he grants them no more then to the meanest of the people but I meane an authoritative publick and Ecclesiasticall prudentiall power not Soveraign Imperiall Royall or Despoticall or Magisteriall but Ministeriall such as may belong to Ministers and Ambassadours of Christ And as I have said it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereof Aristotle speaketh in the Category of Quality but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no naturall power no naturall or supernaturall Habitude but Potestas or Morall Power depending upon will and not upon Nature or that is the work of will and not of Nature CHAP. VII Wherein are dissolved his 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. Reasons borrowed from the Parliaments Ordinance Ob. 6. AFter all his guessing so little to purpose p. 35. § 6. he endeavoureth to prove by the Ordinance of the Parliament for the calling of the Assembly that the Civill Magistrate doth claime yea and exercise act and make use of such an authority from day to day as occasion requireth Because the Parliament published their Ordinance for calling the Assembly A. S. Ansvv I deny the consequence for that contrivance and publishing of their Ordinance is not a directive power intrinsecall to the Church whereof we speake for neither directs it them intrinsecally in Doctrine Discipline or manners but extrinsecally 1. because the Ecclesiasticall Assembly may be and hath sundry times been convocated without it as in the Primitive Church 2. Because it was before ever the Synod began and without any Ecclesiasticall act Now what is before a Synod beginneth and without any Ecclesiasticall Act cannot be intrinsecall to the Synod or to the Church 3. Because the Directive power whereof I speake was in Iudging of Controversies of Religion c. but the publishing of an Ordinance for calling the Assembly is no such thing Ergo 4. Because that calling of the Assembly by Civill Authority alone was extraordinary howbeit very just and conforme unto Gods Word Neither could this be an Ecclesiasticall Assembly unlesse it were vertually called by the Church Officers in vertue of their subsequent consent thereunto and all these Answers must be taken conjunctly and not severally 5. Because this Assembly is not Ecclesiasticall in vertue of the Ordinance of the Parliament but of the virtuall consent of the Church The vertuall indiction of it by Church Authority contributeth to make it intrinsecally Ecclesiasticall But the Ordinance of the Parliament is extrinsecall unto it in so farre forth as Ecclesiasticall howsoever it be very just and necessary but it is intrinsecall to it accidentally and in so farre as is to be received in the State which absolutely is extrinsecall to the Church Ob. M. S. In limiting those that were to be of the Assembly to the subiect or Argument on which it was permitted them to debate they did no lesse i. e. they exercised a directive power A. S. Answ 1. But this is no intrinsecall directive power whereof I speake viz. in Teaching Preaching judgeing of Controversies of Religion c. 2. This was no Ecclesiasticall but a Civill Power 3. In so doing the Parliament judged not what was to be beleeved or practised in the Church but ordained them to judge which is the true intrinsecall directive power 4. And this was extraordinary in respect of Gods particular howbeit not in respect of his generall Providence in the Government of his Church M. S. Ob. 8. In appointing and ordering them not to determine or conclude of things as they pleased by Pluralities of Votes but to deliver their Opinions and advices as should be most agreeable to the Word of God another proviso in the Ordinance they did the same A.S. 1. M.S. would here seem to give some great power unto the Parliament in matters of Religion yet it is nothing else but that which he grants to too many private Members of particular Churches So that if the King and Parliament will become Members of this M. S. his Church and He please to admit them it may be that he will grant them as much power as to other private Members thereof 2. Note that he saies not that it belongs unto them but that they claime it exercise act and make use of it but quo jure quave injuriâ he telleth not 3. In all this there appeareth no intrinsecall or Ecclesiasticall Power they did it not by a Spirituall but by a Secular Power 4. And if the Church had not a Spirituall and Ecclesiasticall Power to determine and to conclude what needed the Parliament to forbid it the Synod rather then ordinary Tradesmen who have no such power to determine such matters 5. Neither by this command is it the Parliaments mind as I beleeve to take away from the Church the directive and intrinsecall Power that God hath granted her but only to desire her to put off her Determinations till it see how farre it can prevaile by faire meanes to gaine pertinacious men who may oppoâ—e it and happily also till it receive full satisfaction it selfe before it confirme such Determinations by an Act of Parliament and so make them to be received by their authority in the State for the Parliament hath no lesse Civill and Secular Authority to receive or not receive it by a Civill Law into the state then any Synod hath spirituall authority to establish or not establish it by an Ecclesiasticall Law in the Church Wherefore in this the Parliament intended not to crosse the Church Government nor to be crossed in their Civill Government by the Church as in former times
executive power of the Civill Magistrate in matters of Religion Here he imployeth neare upon foure pages in quarto in a very small Print about things that are nothing at all to the purpose 1. In threatning the Parliament with Gods most heavy judgements in case they meddle themselves with any executive or coercive power against his new canonized Independent Saints He supposeth them 1. to be Saints 2. Those little ones Matth. 18.6 He telleth them is were better a Milstone vvere hanged about their necke then to meddle vvith one of these little ones and that because the Holy Ghost prophesieth of the putting dovvn of all rule and all authority and povver by Christ for he must reign till he hath put all his enemies under his feet 1 Cor. 15.24 25. this argumentation will hold if ye suppose the Independents to be Christs little Saints and the King and Parliament to be his Enemies in case they meddle with them in hindring them to set up their Sect but to the contrary Gods Saints as themselves in case they suffer not Presbyterians or any others no more then the Independents doe in New England so the Independents shall reigne over us all 2. In guessing what I meane by the word Church whether a Church in folio or in decimo sexto I have fully expounded it howbeit not in so chosen new Divinity termes in folio and decimo sexto So I come to the rest of his Reasons CHAP. VIII Wherein are answered M. S. his Objections 25 26 27. Ob. 25. M.S. VVHen Parties pretend to be offended with the Church or the Church judge any thing amisse the Civill Magistrate may command the Church to re-examine its judgement c. What reason then hath he to be so invective against the Apologists p. 49. 50. for holding that Kings or Civill Magistrates are above the Church A.S. Answ 1. The question is not whether the King and the Civill Magistrate be above the Church or not VVe grant that the Civill Magistrate is above the Church as having a supreame Politicall or Civill power Imperiall Regall Aristocraticall or Democraticall yea altogether independent upon all the Powers of this World and only dependent upon God according to the Lawes of the State wherein he ruleth yet not Spirituall Ecclesiasticall or Intrinsecall to the Church but Secular and Extrinsecall In his Office he is not subordinate or Vicegerent unto Christ as Christ but as God not in his Royall or Divine office whereby he ruleth his Church but in his Divine Nature or Power whereby he ruleth the World not in his particular Providence about his Saints but in his generall about all men and States not according to the Covenant of Grace if he be considered only as a Magistrate for then only they who are in this Covenant should be Magistrates but of Nature for if Adam had continued in the state of innocencie we should have had Magistrates without any Mediator or Covenant of Grace A. S. will easily grant you that the Civill Magistrate is above the Church only he denies that he is above the Church by any spirituall or Ecclesiasticall power as Independents hold but by his Civill and secular Authority which is not subordinate to Christ as Mediator as King or Head of his Church His power over the Church is not intrinsecall as ye hold but extrinsecall as we confesse 2. It is also false that I inveigh against the Apologists p. 49. 50. unlesse Reasons be Invectives I pray the Reader to look the place to the end he may see how little Conscience these men make of untruths and if there be any Invectives there I am ready to suffer 3. This Argument being put in forme will be thus They who may command the Church are above the Church The Civill Magistrate may command the Church Ergo The Civill Magistrate is above the Church Answ If the words command and to be above be taken for to command and to be above Externally and Politically I grant you all the Argument viz. That the Civill Magistrate is above the Church extrinsecally and Politically But if ye take both the words viz. command for an an internall and Ecclesiasticall command that is within the Church and the word above for above Internally and Ecclesiastically in a Church-way I deny your Minor If ye take the one word one way and the other another way I deny your first Proposition M.S. Ob. 26. p. 44. § 7. If the Civill Magistrate hath power to command the Church to revise her judgement when she judgeth any thing amisse surely he hath power to examine and judge of her proceedings and consequently hath a Directive power in matters of Religion But the first is granted by A.S. his concession Ergo so must the second A.S. Answ 1. I answer to your Proposition that in the same way the Civill Magistrate hath power to judge or a Directive power in matters of Religion he hath power to command Now his power to command as I have said is only Politicall Civill and Extrinsecall Ergo such also must be his power to judge or Directive power in matters of Religion viz. Civill Politicall and Extrinsecall to the Church howsoever Intrinsecall to the State for as he hath a Civill Royall Imperiall or Aristocraticall power to command so hath he a Civill Royall Imperiall or Aristocraticall power c. to judge and to direct him in his Commands unlesse he command without judgement But I deny that this concludeth that he hath any Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall power that is Intrinsecall to the Church or Church-Officers who governe the Church 2. This Argument concludeth not an Executive power which is the Title of the Chapter and that which he intendeth to prove This is like to Montagnes Discourses who sundry times hath one thing in the Title and another in the Chapter M. S. Obj. 27. p. 44. sect 7. § 3. being put in forme will be thus They who may determine and judge amisse should not compell or make the people under their Government to sweare obedience or subjection unto their Orders which yet by your owne confession they doe But your Presbyteriall Assembly may determine and judge amisse Ergo. A.S. Answ 1. The Proposition is false 2. Or if it be true I subsume But the Civill Magistrate both in Ecclesiasticall and State matters may judge amisse Ergo the Civill Magistrate should not compell the people under his obedience unto his Order Ergo the Parliament should not compell or make any man to sweare the Covenant Ergo The Independents should not have taken the Covenant because that the Parliament might determine and judge amisse 3. By this reason a man must be tolerated in rejecting all Confessions or Faith because they who contrive them may erre 4. In new-New-England since they may erre they can compell no man to your Religion but must tolerate them which ye will never grant 5. I deny the Assumption 1. For our Churches compell not the people to sweare obedience or
will overthrow all other Government and addeth Faxit Deus A. S. 1. My words contain no prophesie but a consequence 2. I said not that the Independent Government which is no Government but aequivocè as canis coelestis is canis but that the toleration of Independent Government would overthrow all Government 3. In the 2. § of that Page 110. he acknowledgeth his mistake because of my following words And so this Order by necessary Consequence will breed all sort of disorder To this M.S. answereth 1. That it will not breed the disorder of oppressing Consciencious men for Conscience sake A. S. 1. All sort of disorder must not be taken pro singulis generum sed pro generibus singulorum 2. The Syncategorema all there signifies onely a great number of disorders 3. No more doth the Presbyterian Order oppresse Consciencious men or do any thing that you tell there 4. Howbeit it breed not those disorders which you mention there yet it breedeth sundry other disorders which we have already demonstrated 5. It oppresseth Consciencious men 1. In hindering them to get their Consciences fully satisfied in a higher Indicatory 2. By an absolute authority of seven or eight idle yea peradventure debauched Knaves who howbeit their Opinions were never so Hereticall and their practises never so tyrannicall will not submit but oppresse men better then themselves compell them to be gone from their Congregation and so undo them 3. In making them to attend peradventure a yeer or two before they will meet with other Churches to have their unjust Iudgement judged and reversed of which practises see sundry very strange Stories in Master Edwards Book who knoweth them intus in cute which one of their Sect writing in their favour not many dayes ago doth ingenuously confesse They make not indeed men to walk sundry miles for what they might have at home but they sundry times oppresse them at home and undo them for what they might have gotten within a few miles for the hundred part of the losse that they suffered at home whereof see Master Edwards his Antapologia 2. M. S. denieth that they may run from Church to Church But I prove it for if other Churches be Independent of all Authoritative Power they may admit them and howbeit they could not run from Church to Church yet could they set up a Church themselves compounded of seven or eight debauched Fellows like unto themselves as they do here in London M. S. scorneth to answer the rest of my Reasons amounting to the number of seven under pretext that I say that I omitted them but however I omit them the judicious Reader will do well to take notice of them M. S. in all this Chapter bringeth but one onely Text of Scripture for his Opinion and that not by way of Argument but of Answer to one of my Arguments but in the beginning of it he hath some ten frivolous Arguments grounded on the corrupt Reason of his own brains which I will here set down in order and answer them hoping through Gods Mercy that the very weaknesse of the Independents Reasons howbeit we brought no Reasons at all against them would evidently shew how sleight their Opinions and how fond their conceits are M. S. Suppose the Opinion maintained in the latter part of the second Chapter were waved and such a Coercive Power in matters of Religion as A. S. contends for allowed in the Magistrates hand yet that any man should plead for the drawing of his sword against those men c. And a little after that any I say on this side of malignancy should consult the sorrow trouble disgrace suppression ruine of men so holy so harmlesse of such eminent desert in the Cause of Religion State Kingdom me thinks should exceed the line of Humanity and be thought some Inspiration or Suggestion from the great Enemy of mankinde A. S. 1. This Discourse seemeth to imply two Arguments First Men very holy very harmlesse of very eminent deserts in the Cause of Religion State Kingdom should not receive sorrow trouble disgrace suppression or ruine But we the Independents are such Ergo. M. S. his second Argument They who plead for the drawing of the sword consult sorrow c. against so holy men c. have some Inspiration from the Devill or great Enemy of mankinde But A. S. pleads for the drawing of the sword c. Ergo. To the first Argument I answer 1. In generall That I am sorry that this M. S. will hazard the Independents honour in so weak an Argument for if I deny the Minor they will presently cry out that I offend their pretended Power of Piety their harmlessenesse c. And therefore not to offend them I will not say that they are not such Onely I say that whosoever pleads for a Toleration of all damnable and most detestable Hereticks such as deny the Trinity the Incarnation of the Son of God his Mediatorship who call him a Knave and an Impostor who died for us all as this M. S. doth here in his Book can neither be holy nor harmlesse 2. I deny the Major if it be taken absolutely without any distinction for if the Righteous turn from his righteousnesse and do the thing that is wicked he shall die therein Ezek. 33.28 So they are not to suffer for their harmlessenesse and eminent gifts but for something worse 3. I must say That the Minor smelleth somewhat the Pharisee who seemed just in his own eyes And to say nothing else we can produce you a great number of Independents and Independent Ministers no better then other mortall men To the second Argument I answer to the Major 1. They have some inspiration c. if they consult sorrow against them for their holinesse it is true But the Minor is false for I never pleaded any sorrow against them for their holinesse neither am I minded to plead any sorrow or the drawing of the sword against them but onely against such who are turbulent and trouble the Church and State who erect Churches in despite of the Parliament or overthrow the Kings the Parliaments and all Civill Magistrates Authority about the Church and Religion I will not answer unto this Independents Injuries when he calleth all those Malignants who plead for the Civill Magistrates Power as I do and men inspired by the Devill Onely this I say That if such men who curb so the Kings the Parliaments and all Civill Magistrates Authority in such a manner should be protected and maintained by them as they pretend they should be and vaunt they will be which yet I hope shall never be that turdus sibi malum cacat and that they are worthy to drink such as they brew M. S. The Independents have such a considerable strength if not of evidence yet of reason for what they practise and professe A. S. Ergo I know not what I think he would infer they should not suffer sorrow but be tolerated A. S. 1.
sin and the more inexcuseable are we 15. And if the Parliament should follow your Counsell good M. S. it should be to be feared they should be ill obeyed and that many good men would rather take the Bishops and Cavaliers by the hand and in case of necessity tolerate them both and let themselves be plundered then consent to such an abominable perjury and I am assured the one is much more tolerable then the other is and then what should become of the Parliament and us all 16. But tell me I pray thee M. S. Is it not a Maxime of State laid down as indubitable by those who have written in favour of these Defensive Wars of both the Kingdoms That the King in Temporall and Civill Matters hath not an absolute but a limitted Power and that because that Soveraign Power is originally in the People but subjectivè or quoad usum exercitium in the King If that hold in the King wherefore not also in the Parliament But how much more in matters of Religion that depend not either of King or Parliament but of Gods Will All power here is originally in Christ and quoad exercitium Ministeriale in his Officers but from Christ What Power hath either King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdom new Religions or a Toleration of all Sects 17. The Parliament assumes no such power to it self wherefore then will Independents be Suiters to them for any such things which they declare themselves they have not power to grant Away with thee M. S. and all thy Independent Sect and all your unhappy Maximes of State so pernitious to all States of the World After all this this M. S. telleth us that they will with Isaac patiently suffer themselves to be bound and offered in Sacrifice if need be A. S. It is easie to offer your selves to be Sacrificed when there is no Priest and when no man offers you any violence but onely prayes you to live amongst us as Brethren and not to trouble the Church State or Kingdom If you be minded to become such a Free-will-offering in good earnest ye would do well all of you in the first place to quit the good fat Benefices ye have in the Church But so long as ye keep them we cannot beleeve that ye speak sincerely Alwayes it is a pretty Compliment and a painted Sacrifice not with red but in white and black And to close up his Reasons he concludes thus Better a thousand times is it that such distempers as these though found in millions of men should suffer were it never so deep then that the least Hair of the Head of one of those men should fall to the ground i. e. Better that millions of us who desire the suppression of all Sects should suffer then that any of them should loose but one yea the least Hair of their Head A. S. To this I can say nothing But if we in your Opinion be so distempered for the desire we have to see Sects suppressed whereby God is offended the Lord be judge betwixt us How precious in your eyes one little Hair of your Head is which ye prefer before the sufferings of so many millions the Reader will do well to take it into his consideration and accordingly to judge of you what a high rate you set by your selves and what an undervalue ye put upon all the World besides I am assured that servatâ proportione one of your lives is better then the Kings and all the Parliaments put together for there is none of them but rather then that one man should dye they would part with the Hair of their Heads and Beards both AN ADVERTISEMENT TO THE READER M S. in the second Chapter of his Book Section 28. hath some Arguments against the Power of the Civill Magistrate to punish Idolaters Heretiques and Schismatiques which seem also to make for a Toleration for these two Questions have a great Affinity together Wherefore I thought it fittest to put off my Answer unto them to the last place The first is God hath anointed his Word and the Ministery thereof For the casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts it self against the knowledge of God and for the bringing into captivity every high thought unto the Obedience of Christ 2 Cor. 10.5 And he gave some to be Apostles c. Ephes 4.11 12. c. Ergo The Civill Magistrate hath no power to punish Heretiques Schismatiques c. but must tolerate them A. S. 1. I deny the Consequence For the Ministers of the Church are anointed to beat them down by Spirituall means viz. The Word c. whereof alone those Texts speak But the Civill Magistrate is anointed or called to beat them down by other means viz. by Civill Power and Civill Laws which he is bound to make thereabouts and to see observed 2. If this Argument hold the Civill Magistrate cannot beat down by his Civill Authority Sins committed against the second Table as Adultery Murther c. because that the Ministers of God in the Church beat them down spiritually by the Word And this Text is as well to be understood of Sins against the one as the other Table 3. Howsoever the power of the Ministery or Ecclesiasticall Power be able and sufficient to beat down all sin spiritually yet is it not sufficient or able to beat it down politically 4. Neither say these Texts that God hath anointed or ordained the Word and Ministery alone and no other means or Ministers as the Laws of the Kingdom and the Civill Magistrate in a Politicall way for such an effect 5. It is true as M. S. sayes that God gave not some in the Church to be Kings Princes Judges and Justices of Peace Pursevants Jaylors c. For Christ and his Apostles erected not any Civill Government in the State but supposed it already constituted in the Old Testament And that the Civill Magistrate therein was endowed with Civill Authority to punish such as trouble the Peace of the Church 6. Howbeit that in this Text there is no mention made of the Civill Magistrates Power to punish such persons yet is it declared in other Texts as Rom. 13.1 There is no power but of God Ergo It is for God since God is both the first Efficient and the last or ultimate Finall Cause of all things if he be for God Ergo He is to revenge his Cause since he is his Minister Ver. 4. And when he maketh a Politicall Ordinance concerning Gods service Whosoever resisteth his power resists the Ordinance of God and they that resist shall receive to themselvet condemnation both eternall and temporall Vers 2. if thou do that which is evill be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain for he is the Minister of God as well in the State as the Preacher in the Church a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evill Here there is no distinction or restriction in the Law Ergo It is
be taken for a Politicall Power that is extrinsecall to the Church whereby he punishes Hereticks and Schismaticks by Civill punishments the Minor is false as I have already shewed by my Arguments And what he saith of my tendernesse c. it is but Language instead of Reasons 2. If the Extrinsecall power be taken for a remote power or in actu signato the Minor is false neither proveth he it but we have proved the contrary for both Pagans and Christians have it If it be taken for a neerer Immediate power or in actu exercito the Minor is true of the Vnchristian but false of the Christian Magistrate as I have told you again and again and proved it 3. But is not this Power granted to the Civill Magistrate by the Christians of New England 4. And was it not granted him in the Old Testament M. S. 8. Argument The exercise of a Coactive power of the Civill Magistrate against Hereticks Schismaticks c. in matters of Religion tends directly to prevent hinder or suppresse the growth of the Knowledge of God and Jesus Christ in the Church and State and the Reformation of Doctrine and Discipline Ergo It is not of Divine Institution A. S. I answer 1. I deny the Antecedent or I distinguish it if it do all that per accidens I deny the Consequence if per se the Antecedent is false But M. S. proveth his Assumption in substance thus When the Civill Magistrate holds any thing in Religion it is a great temptation and discouragement upon the Subject to search out the Truth in Scripture for if he finde it against the Tenets of the Civill Magistrate one of two things must follow Either out of fear of punishment he withholdeth the truth in unrighteousnesse and so hath God and his own Conscience for his Enemy or else he professeth it and so hath his bones broken for it So these two dangers may tempt him not to read the Scripture A. S. 1. This proveth not that thing which is denyed 2. I deny that the power of the Civill Magistrate since it is onely to good Rom. 13. can per se cause any such Temptation 3. Howbeit a man discover any Truth in Scripture against the Tenets of the Christian Magistrate that he needs to fear any such thing for the true Christian Magistrate will not be so barbarous against the Truth howbeit he think it to be an errour for he may be curious to learn it and if he that hath found it be prudent and not turbulent he needs not to suffer for it M. S. 9. Argument The exercise of a Coactive power in matters of Religion which A. S. and many others pin upon the Civill Magistrate tends to the gratification of Satan and of carnall and prophane men Ergo It is not of God A. S. I deny the Antecedent for then it should be a gratification of Satan to punish Hereticks and Schismaticks and so to destroy his Kingdom which is mainly up held by them But M. S. proveth it 1. For many of those that are like to suffer by it are men of good Conscience and truly fearing God as the Apologists and men of their Iudgement A. S. 1. We see no appearance that those your men of good conscience are like to suffer howsoever they have very highly offended against the Civill Magistrates Authority and some of you as one M. S. in the first Edition of his Book writes that the name of Steuart hath been funest to England in King James and King Charls 2. If they suffer I le warrant you it will never be for their good Conscience but for some worse thing Again M. S. for fear that we should deny them to be men of good Conscience proveth it by two Reasons 1. Because A. S. confessed it But this hath been sundry times answered 2. Because it is not ordinary that men of loose or no Conscience should delight to swim against the streams of greatnesse or pluralitie in matters of Religion A. S. But the Devill hath his own Martyrs as God hath his And one Vaninus an Atheist in France chose rather to die then to renounce his Atheism and so was drowned for his thus swiming against the streams of greatnesse and plurality M. S. proveth the second part of the Assumption viz. That such a Civill Power in the Civill Magistrate about matters of Religion is a gratification of ignorant and carnall men because they desire alwayes Sects and Opinions in Religion to be suppressed save onely that which shall be authorized and practised in the State for so they shall not be much troubled to seek it they know not where or amongst whom A. S. 1. And if the true Religion be to be established in the State wherefore are they not to be gratified therein What greater crime is it in them then in good men to desire the true Religion to be established in the State and all Sects and Heresies to be suppressed 2. Are they ignorant and carnall who desire one onely and that the true Religion to be established and they onely learned and spirituall that desire many Sects and Heresies whereby the good Name of God is blasphemed to subsist 3. If that be ill I am affraid the next word will be that you will say God did not well in establishing the true Religion amongst his people and in suppressing of Sects 4. And no better do your Independents in New England in suppressing of all Sects save their own If this be a crime I pray God we be all criminall and that God have no greater crime to charge us with 5. But desire you M. S. to have many Sects and Heresies in the Kingdom to shew your great Learning in refuting of them as the Souldiers would have the War to continue to shew their valour and therein to finde their preferment I pray you not to be offended with us if we desire to be gratified with the most ignorant in suppressing them and in establishing the true Religion So the Parliament and Synod are ignorant for this is their desire M. S. 10. Argument That power which in the use of it directly tends to defile the Conscience of men is a power from beneath and not from above But such is the Coercive power in matters of Religion wherewith A. S. would fain befriend himself with the Civill Magistrate Ergo. The Major I grant it The Assumption if it have any sense is this in substance When a man is deeply threatned in case he shall not comply with the State in their Religion against his Conscience 1. Either God leaves such a mans Conscience to it self and it is hardned 2. Or by reflecting upon what it hath done it brings it self into grievous Agonies of which it never recovers afterward A. S. This is a very strange Case of Conscience viz. That M. S. his and such like Independent Consciences are so tender and delicate that they are sorely wounded if they may not have a liberty to become
and perfect civill power over their Subjects and yet are destitute of all such intrinsecall or Ecclesiasticall power either directive or executive since neither they know nor will know the word of God which is the only directive or regulative principle in Ecclesiastical matters Government neither ever do they or will they exercise any of these powers yea they renounce them both Now morally he is not said to have power to exercise an Act who never exercises nor will exercise it but renounces it and all power unto it Ergo 14. If the civill Magistrate in qualitie of civill Magistrate hath any such intrinsecall power or authority about the Church Church businesse and Religion then must it not be called only a politicall civill or secular but also an Ecclesiasticall and spirituall power Yea the civill Magistrate and his power must as well be defined by spirituall and Ecclesiasticall actions of direction and Government and by spirituall and Ecclesiastiall matters as by civill actions and matters for it is ordinary to define all faculties habitudes and all naturall or morall powers and authorities by their acts and objects whereunto they have any intrinsecall reference as visum per visibile auditum per audibile Logicam per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Phisicam per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. But so is it not of the civill Magistrates power for neither is it called Ecclesiasticall Religious or Spirituall neither is it the custome of any learned Politician who ever defined it exactly to define it in such a manner Ergo 15. If it were so the civill Magistrate could not be a good Magistrate unlesse he ruled the Church well for in omitting this he should omit the principall part of his office so not being skilled in Divinity he should be unworthy of his charge and worthy to be deposed which I beleeve none but Independent Magistrates will grant 16. Yea to be a true Magistrate and acquit himselfe of his charge he must be an Independent for to acquit himselfe of the charge of a civill Magistrate he must rule the Church well to rule the Church well he must rule it in the Independent way for Episcopall Government is naught not being so much as essentially Ecclesiasticall Government and Presbyterian Government if they be beleeved is nothing else but Episcopall Government to rule it in the Independent way he must be an Independent Ergo a primo ad ultimum to be a true or lawfull Magistrate he must be an Independent This for any thing I can see falleth very little short of Treason for howsoever happily they intend it not yet they tend as fast as they can to it 17. That morall power whereof the externall acts are morally impossible is morally impossible But such is that intrinsecall power in the civill Magistrate about Spirituall matters in the Government of the Church Ergo That intrinsecall power c. must be morally impossible The Major proposition is certain for neither God nor Nature nor men in their right wits ever ordained any morall power whereof the act is morally impossible for active powers are only for their acts as for their ends now if the end be impossible so must that which is for that end be impossible and if it were impossible to saile we should never build ships to saile with I prove the Minor for I put the case there were an Oecumenicall Councell as hath been seen in former times and may be in times to come then should it not be possible for any Christian Magistrate to put in execution any such power over an Oecumenick Councell unlesse he were an Oecumenick Magistrate to whose authority it could submit But such a Magistrate morally is not like to be found E. 18. If the King and Parliament or any civill Magistrate be judge betwixt us and the Independents then must the Independents submit to their judgement and command If so how is it that against the Lawes of the Kingdom and their own Tenets they erect so many Independent Churches without their permission and consent and that the Independent Ministers of the Synod in printed bookes have divulged their judgments upon the matters in debate in the Synod and brought in so many novelties in Religion and all this against the formall Ordinance of both the Houses of Parliament to which they pretend so much submission 19. This opinion maketh all Ecclesiasticall power unnecessary and superfluous for since the civill Magistrate has an intrinsecall power both directive and executive to govern the Church as this M. S. would make us beseeve what need is it that the Ministers of the Church have any such power for the civill Magistrate has power enough to govern both the State and the Church But the Ecclesiasticall power is not unnecessary or superfluous since God hath ordained Presbyteries and some in the Church to be Rulers and others to be ruled For it is a Maxime both in Nature and in Grace that Deus et Natura nihil faciunt frustra Ergo the Independents opinion whereof these absurdities follow must be false 20. Because the Evangelists Prophets Pastors Doctors and other Christians of the Primitive Church would never acknowledge any such authority in the civill Magistrates or obey them as we see throughout all the History of the Acts and of the Primitive Church 21. If Kings Parliaments and the civill Magistrates have any internall Directive Imperative or Executive power over the Church either it should be Supream and Soveraign or Subaltern if Supreame or Soveraign then we have Kings in the Church yea some higher Offices and Officers in the Church then that of the Apostolate and the Apostles which is contrary to St. Paul 1. Cor. 12. Rom. 12. Eph. 4. If Subalterne then the King and Parliament and all Magistrates are subject to some Ecclesiasticall power and are not supreame Iudges in the Church 22. If the Magistrate have any such power either the Supreame or Subaltern Magistrate has it But the supreame has it not as we have seene nor the Subaltern for what reason that every Justice of Peace yea be he never so ignorant in Divinity or never so vicious in his life should have power over a whole Nationall or Oecumenicall Synod It is not possible for he has no power over all the Churches that they represent neither did ever all the Churches send their Commissioners to the Synod upon any such tearmes neither has it ever been acknowledged by any Synod how ridiculous were it to think that every Justice of Peace who has not so much liberty as to enter in to this present Synod should notwithstanding rule it or domineer over it Neither did ye grant so much authority as I beleeve to the civill Magistrate in your Synod in the Netherlands But what reason is it that the subalterne Magistrate of one Towne should rule over the Synod rather then the Magistrate of the Towne from whence is sent an other Commissioner 23. If the civill Magistrates or any
Ecclesiasticall matters even no more then to the meanest of the people Truely they are much beholden to you for your great liberality And if so ride on in despite of King and Parliament to your beloved Conventicles Neither can I finde in these passages Deut. 7.5 and 12.2 3. or Deut. 13. any such thing viz. that it was the generality of the Church or Nation of the Iewes that were invested with it for God never invested the confused multitude in any judiciall or authoritative power CHAP. V. Wherein the same Conclusion is further proved by Reasons NOw after these Testimonies out of Holy Writ I bring these Reasons following grounded upon it and 1. That power which the Civill Magitrate had in the old Testament and is not abrogated in the New may yet continue in the New or the Civill Magistrate may have it in the New But the power to punish Hereticks and Schismaticks is a Power which the Civill Magistrate had in the Old Testament and is not abrogated in the New Testament Ergo the power to punish Hereticks and Schismaticks is a such a Power he may Civill Magistrate may have in the New and so in vertue of Power which the punish them The Major is certaine for there is no other true way to make it not to continue but only the abrogation As for the Minor the first part of it is certaine as appeareth by the Texts of Scripture already alleadged The second Part may easily be proved because only the Ceremoniall Law which contained the shadow of things to come was abrogated in the New Testament The Morall Law was not abrogated so farre forth as it is a Rule of obedience nor as it bindes us thereunto No more is the Politicall Law in quality of Politicall for by the same reason Christ should have over-thrown and abrogated all the Politicall Lawes and policies of the world But that is false for Christs Kingdome was not of this world and he submitteth himselfe unto the Politicall Law of the Jewes yea unto that of the Romans also established amongst the Jewes So did Paul and the Apostles who pleaded their causes before Heathen Magistrates I appeale unto Caesar saith Paul Non auferet mortalia qui regna dat Coelestia 2. Yea if the Jewes had received Christ for their Messias I doubt not but the Politicall Law of Moses in quality of Politicall should have continued amongst them and the Civill Magistrate amongst them should have punished Hereticks Schismaticks Idolaters c. in the New Testament as they did in the Old Neither is there any reason wherefore Christ or his Apostles should have hindred him by his Politicall power to maintaine the Christian Religion in the New Testament as before he did in the Old 3. And it may be further confirmed because the greater the favours be that the Civill Magistrate hath received of God in the New Testament then in the Old so much the greater obligation is laid upon him by his Power to maintaine Gods Cause and Religion 4. And the holier our Covenant is and the further it surpasses the Old so much the greater should the Civill Magistrates care be to maintaine it by his Civill Power 5. If it were not so the State of the Church in regard of the Civill Magistrate should be worse in the New then in the Old Testament for then he maintained it by his Civill Power and by the sword and now he doth it not nor yet hath the power to doe it 6. Is not this plaine Anabaptisme to approve the authority of the Civill Magistrate in the Old Testament and to reject it in the New for as the Anabaptists reject it wholly in the New Testament so doe the Independents in part yea in a great part viz. in that which concerneth the defence of the Church in punishing Hereticks Schismaticks Idolaters c. 7. He who should be a Nurse and a Tutor of the Church in the New Testament should defend her by all his power But Kings and Princes and good Magistrates should be such as we may see in all the Examples heretofore alleadged and in Pharaoh and Esay 1.49.22 where it is promised that Kings shall be Nurses of the Church 8. What if forraigne Princes would invade the Church of God may not godly Princes in such a case justly defend it and represse them by the sword wherefore then may they not doe the like to their owne Subjects who will trouble her peace and by so doing compell them to their duty 9. Doth not the Civill Magistrate this in New England wherefore then may he not doe it in Old England unlesse forsooth the Majestaticall presence of five or six Independent Ministers here be capable to dazle and discountenance him here whereas they receive all their lustre and influence from him there or that as Monkes and Friers yee plead pro immunitate Clericorum or that the ridiculous thunder-bolts of Master Goodwins pretended Judgements of God be capeable to dash it all in pieces here 10. If the Civill Magistrate have not a sufficient Power to punish Idolaters Hereticks and Schismaticks for Religion then all the Roman Lawes in the Code made against Hereticks and those of this Kingdome made against Iesuites Monkes and Priests must be unjust yea the Iudgements given out against them since this Parliament begun are unjust and if so you would doe well to tell them of it If we beleeve these American Christians the Parliaments Lawes are little lesse then tyrannicall 11. That for which all Princes are commended in Scripture that all good Princes should doe and for which they are discommended that should they not doe But for punishing of Idolaters Schismaticks Hereticks c. all Princes that did so in Scripture are commended and for sparing of them are discommended Ergo all good Princes should punish Hereticks c. and not spare them The Major is certaine the Minor is sufficiently proved by the Examples of all the good Kings of Juda and of Iehu 12. They are bound to punish all such as trouble the peace of the State Ergo they are likewise bound to punish such as trouble the peace of the Church for who ever troubleth the peace of the Christian Church troubleth also the peace of the State when the State is Christian 13. If the Civill Magistrate be not bound by his Office to punish Hereticks Schismaticks c. he is bound to tolerate them all and so to tolerate all Independents all Brownists Anabaptists Familists Socinians c. yea some who deny the Immortality of the Soule that hold a generall Resurrection of all Beasts as well as of men yea of all that ever have been since the Creation of the world or shall be to the day of Iudgement peradventure of Lice Flyes VVormes c. and so he shall doe well to Licence the Bookes of such subjects till Master Goodwin alias M. S. resute them for he findes no other remedy in Gods Word but to refute such Bookes If we beleeve this new
Gospeller yee shall have in a short time as many Religions as dayes yea as houres in a yeare yea without all doubt I tremble to say it the Lord preserve us from it as many Gods as ever the Greakes and Remans had Wherefore in the name of God take heed yee all most Honourable Worthies of the two Houses of Parliament to this most damnable Tenet 14. Princes Kings and Iudges in Scripture are called Deliverers or Saviours of the people because they defend the Church from her Oppressors Iudg. 2.16 such as be Hereticks Schismaticks c. If therefore yee be our Iudges most Honourable and worthy Senators it is your part to defend Gods people the Religion which he hath established in his Word and to destroy Oppressors and the Enemies thereof I meane not their Bodies but their Oppressions their Heresies and Schismes 15. Masters have power to put Hereticks and Schismaticks out of their houses in case they be pertinacious Ergo Princes and Magistrates have the same power in the State for there is the same reason for both viz. not to suffer God to be offended so far forth as in us lyeth 16. What power is juris naturalis is to be exercised in all times and places according to our power But the power to punish Hereticks c. is Iuris naturalis Erge it is to be exercised in all times and places The first Proposition is certaine for that which is juris naturalis changeth not but is the same in all times and places because it is not grounded in any inconstant or voluntary institution of our will but in the immutable ordinance of Nature which dictates the same thing to all Persons in all times and in all places The second I prove because it is a Dictate of the Law of Nature that such as trouble the true Religion are to be punished and Moses gives you a naturall reason of it viz. for they will turne thy heart away from the Lord thy God Deut. 7.4 and 13.5 the reason will be thus who ever in all Morall probability will turne the peoples heart away from God it is the Civill Magistrates duty to punish him But Hereticks c. are such Ergo it is the Civill Magistrates duty to punish them it is Moses argument 17. If the Civill Magistrate punish not Hereticks he should become a partaker of other mens sins because he hindereth them not so farre forth as in him lyeth by his Civill Power viz. in punishing them neither carrieth he the sword in vaine neither can it be better employed then in punishing pertinacious sinners such as are Hereticks and Schismaticks But he should not become a partaker of other mens sins as the light of Nature and Scripture teacheth us 1 Tim. 5.22 18. If he punish not Hereticks then every man in the Kingdome shall have power to mould himselfe a new Religion according to his owne heart as the Israelites did their golden Calfe and doe what should seeme right in his owne eyes But the Consequent is absurd Deut. 13.8 Neither was it permitted amongst the Heathens themselves that any man should bring in new Gods or new Religions by their owne private authority We read how the Athenians sentenced Diagoras Anaxagoras and Socrates for their new Opinions in matter of Religion and Philastrius telleth us how the Audiani were condemned for Hereticks because that they commended all Sects and Heresies why not also the Independents for commending and defending the toleration of them all 19. Because we pray to God for Kings and for all that be in Authority that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all Godlinesse and honesty 1 Tim. 2.2 By their conversion to Christ v. 3 4 5. to the end that being converted they may defend Religion in punishing Hereticks and Schismaticks and so in repressing of Schisme and Heresie 20. Because in a State wherein all men professe the truth the peace of the State cannot be otherwayes preserved nor the safety of the Kingdome which is the ultimate end of the Civill Magistrate qua talis and the supreme Law of the Republike be obtained for how shall peace safety and unity be procured amongst Orthodox Subjects but by unity in Truth and how can the bond of unity be any wayes so soon and so easily broken as by diversity of Religions And this the Ecclesiasticall History fully sheweth us for what miseries cannot these Schismes breed when the Husband is of one Religion and the wife of another the Father of one and the Sonne of another Brethren and Sisters of divers Religions the King of one and the Subjects of another How many Families hath it dissolved how many Cities hath it destroyed Have we not Examples fresh and bleeding before us in Ireland c It hath cost some Kings their Crowns some their lives and endangered others of their life and Kingdome both Yea what is one of the principall causes of our present divisions betwixt the King and the Subjects Is not Arminianisme Socinianisme the Archiepiscopall I know not what Religion Some call it Popery some Socinianisme others Arminianisme others Lutheranisme others some mixture of Religion not much unlike to Samaritanisme But be it what it will diversity of Religion and not punishing of Hereticks and Schismaticks is the principall cause of all these our miseries and confusions 21. The Civill Magistrate is to punish such as marry with those of a contrary Religion and that because they are of contrary Religions as appeareth by the texts of Scripture already alleadged Deut. 7.2.3 How much more those who are of contrary Religions nam propter quod unumquodque tale id magis tale for it is a greater sin to be an Idolater or an Heretick then to be married to them 22. Those with whom we cannot enter into Covenant cannot be tolerated among us but must be at least exiled by the Civill Magistrate for to live amongst us they must at least enter into Covenant with us for an offensive and defensive warre against forraigne Enemies But with Idolaters Hereticks c. we cannot enter into Covenant Deut. 7.2 so Esdras and Nehemiah above quoted Ergo 23. Because God hath promised to destroy our Enemies if we destroy his wherefore rather then God should not destroy ours were it not policie to labour the destruction of his 24. The man who will not hearken to the Ministers of the Church and the Civill Magistrate the Civill Magistrate must punish him But Hereticks and Schismaticks are the men who will not hearken unto the Ministers of the Church and to the Civill Magistrate Ergo the Civill Magistrate must punish them The first Proposition is cleere The man that will doe presumptuously and will not hearken unto the Priest or unto the Judge even that man shall dye Deut. 12.12 Neither know I what can be answered save only that that must be understood of the Priest of the Old Testament But there is the same reason for the Ministers of the New Testament viz. 1.
but to live together as Moses and Aaron both looking to one end but each one of them with their owne eyes the one with a Politicall the other with a Spirituall or Ecclesiasticall eye And this appeareth by those words of the Ordinance during this present Parliament or untill further order be taken Now if this Order were full what needed the Synod attend for a further Order Neither is there any man of judgement that can blame the Parliament in all this yea howbeit it should extraordinarily doe more in this extraordinarily miserable estate of Religion when now Sathan hath so manifest and palpable an entrance into the Church of God under so many ill-portending shapes as of Independents Brownists Anabaptists Socinians c. they had need take upon them for the defence of the Church more then in ordinary cases they doe 7. Only I adde a word viz. that these words as they pleased by plurality of Votes are not in the Ordinance but are an addition of M. S. in contempt of the Synod as if the Members thereof voted not according to Scripture but as pleased themselves And 8. that in case of difference in Opinion it is not ordained that they represent their Opinions and the reasons thereof to either or both the Houses to the end that they may judge of the matter but that they may finde out some further direction whereby the Assembly may judge it 9. Yea there is another Ordinance since the printed Ordinance whereby it is ordained that all things agreed upon and prepared for the Parliament should be openly read and allowed in the Assembly and then offered as the judgement of the Assembly if the Major part consent see how the judgement of the Major part of the Assembly is here declared by the Parliament to be acknowledged as the Decision of the Assembly which M. S. will not stand unto Object 9. In enjoyning them in case of difference of opinions between them to present the same together with the reasons thereof to both Houses they did every whit as much A.S. Answ 1. I deny that they who enjoyne in case of difference c. have an Internall power in the Church much lesse an internall Directive power 2. This injunctiō was not in reference to the Intrinsecal power of the Church which is evermore within the Church but to the Extrinsecall power about the Church i.e. to that of the Magistrate whose power is without the Church howsoever within the State and in so far forth as the Parliament by Civill Law intended to approve and confirme the Ecclesiasticall Law 3. Item it was to see if by any meanes and wayes of meeknesse it could perswade a few men of your Sect to submit themselves unto the Order and Government that God hath established in his Church as they have done you many other favours which you too much undervalue arguing from this favour as from a Law to that which is or should be ordinary Iustice And yet they ordained that what is caried by plurality of Votes in the Assembly should passe as the judgement of the whole Assembly Object 10. M.S. In their nominating and calling such and such Ministers and not others to be of the Assembly they acted the same power A.S. Answ That is also Extrinsecall since it was not in but out of and before the Assembly 2. And extraordinary 3. And yet very ordinate and ordinary for this extraordinary state of the Church in this Kingdome when such a swarme of Sects are crept in some comming from New England others from the Netherlands and others from other places For if every one of them should have had entry into the Assembly what should have become of us 4. Neither doth this prove any Directive power in the Church in teaching c. as I said that should belong unto the Magistrate M.S. Ob. 11. In framing the temper and constitution of the Assembly allaying it with such and such Members of their own they steered the same course A.S. Answ 1. This cannot conclude any Directive Ecclesiasticall power that belongeth unto the Parliament 2. These Members of their own who did sit in the Assembly if they had any Vote did not sit there in quality of Members of the Assembly for then every Member of the Parliament might have sate there but in quality of extraordinary Ecclesiasticall persons according to this extraordinary state and exigence of the Church 3. If they had no Vote at all and yet sate they were not Members of the Assembly but this was a speciall priviledge granted unto the Members of the House which in other places likewise is granted unto persons of meaner rank yea unto Strangers as we may see in the Church of Scotland in their Generall Assemblies 4. Or rather they sit there in name of the Parliament to procure by their Civill power the Externall order that should be in such Assemblies But this is no Ecclesiasticall or Internall power in the Church but Externall about the Church such as the French Kings Commissioners who are sometimes Papists have in our Protestant Nationall Synods in France and yet are not Members of our Synods there neither Vote they neither pretend they to have any Intrinsecall power there for then they should professe themselves thereby to be Protestants only they have power to oppose things that they beleeve to be prejudiciall to the King or the State 5. Neither beleeve I that they vote in points of Doctrine 6. And if they vote in matter of Government they doe it in quality of Ruling Elders either extraordinary or ordinary in vertue of some virtuall election made by the Synod or by the Synods toleration or approbation for no man can rule the Church intrinsecally but he that is intrinsecally a Church-Ruler or Officer as I have proved it heretofore M.S. Object 12. Lastly in their messages or Directions sent unto them from time to time how to proceed what particulars to wave for the present what to fall upon and debate To hasten the issue of their Consultations with the like What doe they else but claime and exercise such a Directive power in matters of Religion A.S. Answ To proceed to wave particulars to debate things and consult of them in the Assembly argueth an intrinsecall directive power proper unto the Church but to send Messages proveth it not at all to be in the Parliament but in the Church and that the Magistrate by his Civill power can command the Church to use its Ecclesiasticall power 2. For the Magistrate may command the like thing to every Guild or Common-Hall in the City touching their own professions Neither can it thereupon be inferred that he hath an Intrinsecall Directive power in such Trades CHAP. VIII Wherein are answered his 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20. Arguments M.S. p. 37. § 1. Ob. 13. BUt if the Parliament have no calling from God to judge of matters between the Apologists and their Brethren the Assemblers I would willingly know who hath
§ 2. They who are Party cannot be their Parties Judge since they are all equals Et par in parem non habet imperium and to be both Iudge and Party in one cause cannot be granted to those that have no authoritative power one over another as A.S. himselfe affirmes But the Assembly are those who are Party to the Independents and nothing else but their equals Ergo the Assembly cannot be their Judges A. S. Ans A Party cannot judge a Party I distinguish for either this Party is only pretended and so I deny the Major or reall and then this reall Party either compeareth in some personall or reall actions of his owne alone or in some cause of publick concernment if he compeare under the first notion the Major is true but the Minor is false for the Members of the Assembly compeare not in the Assembly for any personall or reall action of their owne alone or of particular concernment if he compeareth under the second notion the Major is false unlesse yee have sufficient cause to forsake him for Iudge 2. Item If it be a Party that hath no power over the Party in such a cause the Major is true but the Minor is false for the Assembly in matters of Discipline hath power over all the Independents in England viz. to condemne their Tenets according to Gods VVord If it be a party that hath power over the Party in such a cause as a Iudge the Major is false and so it was reasoned and this your Tenet judged and condemned in the Arminians as I hope it shall be in this Arminian and the Independents in this Assembly 3. It is false that parties are equals when the one hath power over another or when the one that is pretended to be party judgeth not in a matter concerning himselfe but the publick 4. For if that should hold the parties of the Independent Churches might reject the judgement of whole Churches yea of all the Churches of the world pretending them to be parties 5. Yea for the same reason they might reject the Iudgement of the Parliament 6. This Argument proveth not the question viz. that the Parliament hath an intrinsecall directive power in matters of Religion or an Ecclesiasticall power to judge in matters of Religion 7. It is a very proud and Independent expression of yours when you say that the Synod and all the Churches in the Christian world are but the Apologists equals you will finde them I hope in God their Judges and yet they are put in authority by the Parliament to represent the whole Church of England which is more then such an inconsiderable number of Independents M. S. Ob. 17. p. 37. § 2. If all Churches vvere equall as for ought I know or for any thing A.S. alledgeth to the contrary they are there can be neither superiours nor inferiours and consequently no obedience or disobedience But the first is true A. S. Ans 1. This proveth not that the Parliament hath any intrinsecall povver in the Church much lesse any directive intrinsecall povver 2. Only it pretendeth to prove an Independent Povver in the Church which taketh away their directive povver of the Civill Magistrate and the Parliament for if their Churches depend not of any superiour how can they depend upon the Parliament or any other Civill Magistrate I deny the Assumption viz. that all Churches are equall but he proveth it because they are such for ought he knoweth or that A. S. alleadgeth to the contrary Ansvv 1. This is but to confesse your ignorance 2. I deny the Consequence for it may be otherwise howbeit he be ignorant of it 3. Neither is his knowledge the measure of divine or naturall verity but to be measured by them 4. Howbeit A. S. should say nothing to the contrary yet the contrary may be for A. S. hath not said all things that may be said upon this or any other subject and there be thousands who can say more and better then he yea many have said more and better 5. It is an untruth also that he hath said nothing to the contrary for he might have seene something to the contrary in his Observations and in his Answers to a Libell and if that be not enough he hath more in this Booke 6. When he saith that A. S. argueth so it is an untruth for neither hath A. S. the Assumption nor the Conclusion in the 38. page of his Observations cited by him for he destroyeth the Consequent to destroy the Antecedent whereas M. S. poseth the Antecedent to infer the Consequent M. S. Ob. 18. If Iustice consisteth not in an Arithmeticall but Geometricall proportion then is there no reason that peremptoriousnesse of Vote how Arithmetically soever priviledged but weight and worth of Arguments should carry it against them But the first is true Ergo the second also A. S. Ansvv This Argument with its peremptorious censure of a pretended peremptoriousnesse of Votes Arithmetically priviledged seemeth to censure the Parliament which ordained that that should be offered unto them as the Iudgement of the Assembly vvhich the major part assented unto i. e. that that was judged by Plurality of Votes 2. If by peremptoriousnesse of Vote he meaneth Plurality of Votes I deny the consequence or connexion for when things are fully ballanced by reason in any Assembly it is more probable that that is most true that is carried by plurality of votes and that Geometricall proportion wherein consisteth distributive Iustice may be more easily found out by Plurarity of votes then by fewer votes otherwise it were a folly to vote any thing for wherefore vote they any thing in any Assemblies but that it may be judged by plurality of votes 3. And the Apostle willeth that the spirit of Prophets be subject to the Prophets Neither is it credible that the Major part will submit unto the lesser part 4. And we would willingly know of you Sir how things are ordinarily carried in your Assemblies whether things being debated and every mans Reasons heard the Major part submitteth to the lesser or the lesser to the Major or whether that is thought truth that the Major or Minor part Voteth 5. If by peremptoriousnesse of votes you mean a bold and imperious carrying of things by plurality of votes without reason I shall readily grant you such Assemblies are unlawfull neither is there any such established amongst us neither hath the Parliament established any such Ecclesiasticall Assembly here neither doth the Assembly arrogate unto it selfe any such unjust power if this Argument hold it shall beate downe as well the proceedings of the Parliament and all Civill Iudicatories wherein things are carried by Plurality of votes as those of the Assembly wherefore all the Civill Powers in the world will doe well to take notice of this peremptorious censure of them all for if it stand they must fall and doe homage to the Independent Churches Besides this I know not what he meaneth by Arithmetically
There was no other way in the Old or in the New Testament there is no other in Civill Judicatories there can be no other found in this world And to end this Argument I ask you What if a man be oppressed in one of your Churches as it is possible a man may be as well as in one of ours unlesse ye have the power of Piety in a more Independent degree yea beyond all flesh and blood in any juncture of time to come and afterward he complains to Neighbour Churches and they oppresse him by their Judgements What other remedy can he have but patience and to appeal to the Judge of quick and dead or else acquiesce to the sentence or at least suffer it For a man cannot sin in meer sufferance for actuall sin materially is ever more an action of the will or a voluntary omission of some action M. S. Ob. 30. p. 46. sect 2. What power is Intrinsecall to Religion it is Intrinsecall to the Church But the Civill Magistrates Power is Intrinsecall to Religion for A. S. sayeth That the Parliament pretends no Directive power in matters of Religion but an Executive power onely viz. In matters of Religion Ergo The Civill Magistrates power is Intrinsecall to the Church A. S. Answ What ever may be said of the Proposition I deny the Assumption and to the confirmation thereof I answer 1. That when I say the Civill Magistrate hath power in Religion the word in signifies about for Religion signifieth the object of the Civill Magistrate and so we speak ordinarily as when we say A rich mans heart is in his Money and Riches so in here signifieth not an Intrinsecall but an Extrinsecall Denomination as when I say The Sun is seen the Attribute in this Affirmative Proposition is said to be in the Subject not by any Intrinsecall Inherence or Denomination but by an Extrinsecall Adherence Attribution or Denomination This little Childish Sophistication is more worthy of some young smatterer in Logick then of a Divine or any Conscientious man It is not possible that M. S. could be ignorant of this and therefore in this Dispute if he have any power of Piety I desire more Conscience and Sincerity in him I may also say That the Civill Magistrate hath an Extrinsecall power in the Church if the word in there signifie a bare Attribution or Extrinsecall Denomination as it is ordinary amongst Divines Philosophers and common people and yet I confesse it is more properly said about Religion and about the Church as Apollonius observeth and as I have expressed my self but then there should have been a concurrence of in 's which would have made my Expression obscure for then I must have said The Civill Magistrate about matters of Religion hath an Extrinsecall power as also about the Church as this Professor of Eloquence would have me to speak which kinde of Expression I beleeve few or none could have understood If the Independent cause depend upon such ridiculous puntillio's and be so Independent upon good reason I know not of the two which is better Dependency or Independency M. S. Ob. 31. p. 46. sect 11. The power of Citation is Extrinsecall to the Church The power of Citation is Ecclesiasticall Ergo Some Ecclesiasticall power is Extrinsecall to the Church A. S. I distinguish the word power of Citation for it is either Ecclesiasticall which is proper unto the Church viz. In Church Officers gathered together in an Ecclesiasticall Assembly And this is both in and about the Church or Civill which is proper to the Christian and in some way to a non-Christian Magistrate where by his Civill power he maintaineth the Church and this is out of the Church in the Magistrate and yet about the Church which is its object And so I answer to this silly Argument That it is captious and grounded on an Equivocation for it taketh the power of Citation in one signification in the Major viz. For a Politicall power of Citation and in an other in the Minor viz. For an Ecclesiasticall power of Citation 2. Or if it be taken in both for an Ecclesiasticall power then the Major is false for Christ gave it to the Church to which it is Intrinsecall and not to the Civill Magistrate 3. Or if it be taken in both for a Civill power then the Minor is false for the Civill power of Citation is not in the Church but in the Magistrate neither ever gave Christ it as Mediator either to the Church or to the Civill Magistrate but God by Christ as God gave it onely to the Civill Magistrate And the Peece whereof the Presse as M. S. sayeth hath been lately delivered sayeth no other thing then I say if M. S. his Diana of Ephesus can permit him to understand it or he do not willingly dissemble his understanding of it M. S. If a Classis shall cite or excommunicate a Member of a Church against the judgement and consent of the Elders of that Church let all the World judge whether that be not an Act of Externall power without the Church A. S. This Argument is ridiculous 1. For it proveth not that which is in question viz. That the Civill Magistrate hath an Ecclesiasticall or Intrinsecall power in the Church 2. Onely it proveth that the Church hath an Authority that in some respect may be called Extrinsecall 3. But to take away this Equivocation and many others and to explain more fully this question note again 1. That the Church may be considered either according to its Reall and Naturall or according to its Morall being 2. That the Church according to its Morall being I speak of the Representative is either Particular of one Parish or Congregation or more Generall as a Classicall or Synodall Assembly 3. Note that the particular Church may be considered either Absolutely and in it self alone without any reference to a Classe or a Synod whereof it is a part or Relatively with a reference to the more Generall Church viz. a Classis or Synod whereof it is a part or in quality and under the notion of a part in so far forth as by some formall or virtuall Assent it hath once Covenanted to be a part of such a Classis or Synod and Stipulated to send its Commissioners to such Classicall or Synodall Meetings 1. If then we consider Citation or Excommunication with reference to the Church either more Generall or Particular according to its Naturall being it may be Extrinsecall to them both for the Act of Citation or Excommunication is not really produced or pronounced according to its Naturall being by the Church considered under the notion of its Reall being but by one man as all wise men will grant 2. If they be taken morally according to their Morall being grounded on some Covenant then the Acts of Excommunication and Citation are not Extrinsecall to the more Generall Church since they are exercised by Her power and consent 3. If they be considered with
better their Cause fave onely that it is naught It is truely a strange thing that men of so great abilities should be able to say no more for themselves 8. And since you M.S. and they are so able will you or they I pray condescend to some private meeting with some of the Presbyterians that it may be seen who hath the best Cause and whether or no all your deep learning and great skill in Sophistications wherein ye so excell can set any probable shew or face of reason upon your opinions which ye hold to be no lesse then Gods revealed Word M. S. Answer 3. Better a door opened to all sorts of erroneous opinions yea and to many other inconveniencies greater then this then that the guilt of any persecution or of any evill entreatings of the Saints and people of God should cleave unto the people or State A. S. this M. S. supposeth 1. That the Independents are the Saints 2. And that in case they be not tolerated in establishing publikely their Church Government and other Tenets in despight of Church and Parliament both in the Church and State that it is no lesse then the guilt of persecution against the Saints drawn upon the State 3. That it were better that all the Heresies of the World and worse should creep into the Church then that they should not be tolerated but chastised in case they trouble the peace of either Church or state I answer That all that M. S. here sayeth are damnable untruths and that it were better that all the Independents of this World were in America and that ten thousand times worse should befall them then that the good Name of God should be dishonoured by filthy Heresies And if the Independents had any fear of God before their eyes and loved not themselves better a great deal then Gods glory they would rather desire with Moses to be scrap't out of the Book of life or with Paul to be separated from Christ then that Christs Church should so suffer or Gods blessed Name be so dishonoured A. S. 2. Reason It is dangerous for the State it may breed Factions and Divisions betwixt all Persons of whatsoever relation betwixt the Magistrate and the Subject the Husband and the Wife the Father and the Son Brethren and Sisters the Master and the Servant when the one is of one Religion or Ecclesiasticall Government and the other of another as ye yea to your no very great advantage have experimented it severall times The Son may refuse to receive any Communion with the Father and the Brother with the Brother to the utter dissolution of all naturall civill and domesticall bonds of Societie And the reason of this may be because the one may Excommunicate the other as daily Experience testifies M. S. The shadows of the Mountains seem Men unto you Judg. 9.36 A. S. So said Zebul the servant of Abimelech the son of the Concubine who by a conspiracy with the Schichemites was made King and afterwards murthered his Brethren and yet they were men viz. Wicked Abimelech with his Army and no shadows of Mountains M. S. would have us live in security and would rather tolerate Socinianism Arminianism yea Iudaism and Mahumetanism then that his own Sect should not be tolerated Of so large a conscience is he A.S. It may breed Factions c. M.S. But A. S. his may may possibly not come in an Age no nor in many Generations and would he have so many Thousands of the deare People of God as do Apologize to eat their bread in darknesse And he said heretofore that May commeth but once a yeere A.S. It is subtilly argued M.S. of you with your May but it is too much that such a May come once a yeere or once in an Age and better were it ten thousand of you should perish then God be so offended for it is a Maxime in Divinity Quodvis malum Paenae etiam maximum eligendum potius quà m minimum malum Culpae nam quaevis Culpa pejor quavis Poenâ 2. But I pray you learne of me that as impossibile morale in morall matters such as this whereof we dispute is not that which never but which rarely or hardly falleth out so is possibile morale idem quod facilè which easily and oftentimes falleth out and not that falleth out but once in an Age And that it falleth out so very oft we may prove it by the Divisions in France the Netherlands Germany Poland Transilvania c. What I pray transported the Crown of Swede from the Nephew to the Vnkle What moved a King of Spaine to consent to his own Sons death What is the cause of so great a War betwixt the Turk and the Persian And finally what is the cause of this our present War but the favouring of Popery the Negotiations with Rome our Agents there Father Con and the Popes Nuncio here 2. Ye are not so many Thousands as ye brag of save in London and a few miles about it your Sect I think may easily be counted by Hundreds and as for the remoter parts of the Kingdome they are unknowne Creatures to them 3. If they be so deare to God they can never qua tales suffer for so wicked a cause as for all Licentiousnesse in Religion 4. They need not to suffer if they will not be turbulent but quiet and submit unto the Lawes of the Kingdome and such an Ecclesiasticall Government as in Gods mercy shall be established in the Church What a sawcinesse is this that they will be content with nothing unlesse in despight of Church and State they may doe what they will 5. As for his Rhetorications in telling me that I am bred of Rocks and suck'd the milk of Tygers All that shall not hinder me to maintaine that the Independents must be subject to Order and Authority both Civill and Ecclesiasticall as other men are or else suffer for their turbulent humour M. S. I would know of him whether he deemeth himselfe to be of another Religion then the Apologists If so Candorem tuum A.S. in that malignant expression c. A.S. As for my Religion you may know it M.S. It is that which is declared in the Confessions of the Churches of Scotland England the Netherlands France c. But as for yours Sed vos qui tandem quibus aut venistis ab eris Quovè tenetis iter that I know not and consequently whether I be of your Religion or not Ye will have no Confession of Faith or Discipline but what you may change Fidem diariam aut ad summum menstruam such as you may change with every Moon But to come more neere to the Point I pray you set forth a Confession of Faith in the name of all the Independent Churches and subscribe all of you that ye will stand to it and then I will answer your Question If ye will not here I will give you the best satisfaction I can and it is this viz.
Sects and all sort of Ecclesiasticall Governments Neither have I ever heard of any Petition made about it much lesse for any Independent Government M. S. And where Conscience is tender a little violence is a great torment to it A. S. It hath been told you twenty times 1. That no man violateth or forceth your Consciences 2. And all Sects bring the same pretext of tender Consciences 3. And we tell you again That your wayes are not wayes of tender but of turbulent Consciences A. S. 3. Argument No State in Christendom where there is one onely Religion established will admit the publike exercise of any other or endure a Schism in that which is already received Wherefore then should it be done here M. S. his third Reason 1. Supposeth that malignant Supposition viz. That Presbytery and Apologism make two differing Religions 2. That there is no State in Christendom c. 3. That Apologism in case it be tolerated must needs become a Schism in that Religion which is established in the Land A. S. To the first I answer 1. That neither I do suppose nor yet can suppose any such thing For we see no common Confession of Faith of the Apologism neither will the Apologists be known or declare their Tenets but are evermore in the Synod and out of the Synod observing what is there said or done taking their advantage upon all occasions and shaping their Tenets according to the current of the times 2. If the word Religion be taken in a large signification as it containeth in it self both doctrine and Discipline then the Independents are of a different Religion from us since their Discipline is altogether different 3. If it be taken for a potentiall part of Justice which inclineth the will to honour God then the Independents differ from us in very many acts of Religion both in those that it exerciseth whether they be internall or externall and in those that it commands to other vertues and consequently in Religion it self For they have much superstition in the Acts of their Religion 1. In respect of the persons in that they make every man a Minister to Preach and to Rule 2. In their Sacraments in that they take their selves to be so holy that no Protestant yea though he so live as that he give no offence to any man is yet worthy of their Communion c. If it be taken for the Doctrine of Faith We know not the Doctrine of their Churches since they are all Independent one upon another but as for that of particular Independent Persons Master Goodwins Religion of Coalmanstreet who is thought to be an Independent and matriculated into the Independent Society is a Religion different from ours as appeareth by his Books which are blamed by the best Ministers of London whereof some of them have written against him So is that of that other most famous Independent who preached not long ago at Westminster of some of whose Doctrines I gave you a short relation but even now As for the second Supposition M. S. he saith that it is manifestly untrue as it is notoriously known in France the Low-Countries c. A. S. But it is notoriously known in France that it is against the will of the State and of all Papists that Protestants are tolerated there as it appeareth evidently 1. By so many bloody Massacres and Butcheries of the Protestants there 2. By so many Wars whereby they obtained a Liberty of Conscience 3. They had many Princes of the Royall Blood for them who were Protestants many Officers of the Crown many of the Parliament in Paris and finally King Henry the fourth who in the beginning was a Protestant to whom by Succession belonged the Crown for whose right they sought very stoutly in sundry Battels furnished him with men and moneys for the War And he after his externall revoult remaining evermore a Protestant in his heart as it is commonly beleeved and fearing the Jesuiticall Faction in recompence of their good service granted them Liberty of their Consciences Free Exercise of their Religion and Towns of surety and security therefore they obtained then their Liberties by the Sword And afterward they were confirmed by Law but sore against the State and the Papists will And all this notwithstanding the Papisticall Sect evermore undermines them and by little and little against all Law cuts them short of those Liberties so deerly purchased by them But if you take France for such a Refuge for Libertinism you would do well to try whether ye can settle a Colony of yours there I beleeve you would quickly experiment it how little favour ye should receive there in respect of that you have already received of your own Countrey-men As for the Netherlands if there were but one Religion there they would not tolerate any other And what they have done in tolerating many it is not so much will as necessity that hath forced them to do so And the History testifies how unwilling they were in the beginning to grant any Toleration at all to the Papists where they were already established If yours of late have been tolerated there 1. It was because ye taught not there in their Language but in English to English men 2. And there ye professed not for any thing we know that Presbyteriall Government was Episcopall or contrary to Gods Word as ye do here 3. They beleeved that if ye could have gotten the Exercise of Presbyteriall Government in England ye would not have been so averse from it as ye are 4. We know not whether your Religion was tolerated by the States Generall or whether it was tolerated Positive or Negativè The third Supposition is true But M. S. replieth or rather answereth That every difference in judgement doth not make a Schism in that Religion which is professed on both sides A. S. Neither said I any such thing But M. S. here giveth himself much to do with many long and idle discourses without any reason at all If he desire to know what Independency is whether an Heresie or a Schism I have evermore dealt fairly with him I have given a Definition of both Heresie is an errour in part in matters of Faith in him who once professed it whereof he being sufficiently convicted yet he continueth and pertinaciously perseveres in it But Schism is a breach of Christian Charitie onely whereby men separate themselves from the Communion of the true Church and after sufficient Conviction pertinaciously persevere in the same Here I take Heresie and Schism in a strict signification as they are taken by Divines both Protestants and Schoolmen when they distinguish them one from another If he admit these Definitions which are ordinarily approved of in the Schools we may examine thereby the Independency and see whether it be a Schism or an Heresie or not If he reject it I would pray him to give us some better one I say not that Independency is a Schism or that the Independent
the States of Poland doe 5. The question is not what Papists will but what both we and they should doe or rather what Gods Word commands us to doe We take not Antichrist but Christ and his Word for a patterne of our duty M.S. his 4. Answ Whereas you say that they granted not a Toleration to divers Sects doe you not imply that they did grant a Toleration to some one Sect at least And how know you whether the Apologisme be not that Sect A.S. Truly M.S. is very subtile who of a Negative infers an Affirmative even as if I should conclude thus M. S. is not divers Schismaticks or Hereticks Ergo He is one Heretick This man hath not committed divers Adulteries Ergo He hath committed one Adultery Have you never learned good M.S. that old Rhime wherein there is more Reason then Poetrie Syllogisari non est ex Particulari Neve Negativis rectè concludere si vis since it follows not I know not at all that Christ or his Apostles ever granted a Toleration to the Sect of Apologisme as you stile it 3. And since you appeale to my Conscience in this Point you must submit to my Iudgement otherwise you profane the Name of God M. S. 5. Answer is That Toleration is rei malae and therefore the Apologists should not be Suiters for a Toleration but should be encouraged A.S. M.S. is minded to be merry but I must be serious and therefore 1. I deny your Antecedent and I gave you the Reason heretofore 2. Apologisme I have told you is res pessima and more dangerous by consequence then 10. Heresies as I have sufficiently proved to all men who will sit down with Reason Then he addeth That if they sin in suing for a Toleration Ergo To prevent that sin it should be granted them A. S. By the same reason if a man sin in suing for a toleration of Mahumetanisme or Adultery to the end to prevent such sins they should be tolerated This Argument of M.S. is as ridiculous as impious M. S. But sixthly and lastly What doe you think of Sinite utrumque crescere Let both grow together untill the Harvest Math. 13.30 A.S. Since you are so desirous of my judgement I shall willingly give it you 1. I answer by your own Maxime that Symbolica Theologia non est argumentativa Symbolicall or Parabolicall Theologie furnisheth no good Argument Now this is a Parable for the Text saith v. 3. And he spake many things to them in Parables◠2. I beleeve that by both viz. the Wheat and the Tares our Saviour meaneth not Hereticks but all the Good or the Faithfull and the Wicked so that if out of this you will conclude a Toleration ye must conclude a Toleration for Adulterers Murtherers Parricides Ravilliacks and Gunpowder Traitors Chatells Regi-cides 3. If by a Toleration ye mean a positive Toleration or Consent such as ye desire then we must all positively tolerate or consent to have men of such ill qualities and ill conditions to live amongst us with all impunity yea and approbation 4. I beleeve that Christ speaketh there to the Apostles and will not that they usurpe the Civill Magistrates power in punishing of them that are of his cognizince yea though he will not doe it And so doe our learned and godly Ministers they doe their duty with the sword of the Spirit and leave the Materiall sword unto the Civill Magistrate as proper unto him as the Spirituall is unto them for He caries not the sword in vain Neither must they meddle with the Materiall nor he with the Spirituall sword 5. If they must be tolerated according to Gods Word how have you taken the Covenant and so solemnly sworne and subscribed with your hands the extirpation of Papists and of all the Hierarchy 6. Servet who called the Trinity a three-headed Cat and denyed the Incarnation of the Son of God and his Mediator-ship and his Followers brought this very Argument for him and his Sect that you now do So here ye bring no new thing but what sundry Hereticks brought before you so yee tread directly in their steps and have made choice of a prety pattern A. S. 16. Argument is taken from the practise of the Independents of New England whose wayes and practises say they are improved to a better edition and greater refinement whom also they compare in their Apology with Father Abraham and being put in form will be this That courtesie which no man can obtain of the Independents where they have authority viz. in New England That courtesie should they not be suiters for here in Old England But a Toleration of a New Religion or Discipline of Sects and Heresies is a courtesie that no man can obtain of the Independents where they have authority viz. in New England Ergo Toleration is a courtesie that they i. e. Independents should not be suiters for here in Old England The Major Proposition may be confirmed for it is à pari and such measure as they measure with such should be measured unto them again for the Lex Talionis requireth it And what reason is it that men should be tolerated by us in their erroneous Tenets who will not tolerate the truth What if they should increase here What more favour could we hope for from them then our dear Brethren have tasted already in the sorrowfull times of their Afflictions Without doubt being great Politicians and Undertakers zealous in the Noviciate and Infaney of their Sect and no lesse cunning and politique then the Iesuites themselves the Church of God and the State also should seriously lay to heart what they may do here likewise And their activity in making of Proselytes both in the Army and the City should give all men subject enough to be diffident of them The Minor appeareth cleerly by the proceedings of New England and the Sectaries bred in the Independent Sect whereof some women have been the Ring-leaders as one Mistresse Hutchinson and sundry others whom they would no wayes tolerate amongst them but punished by Imprisonment and Exiling of their persons howsoever they went out of Old England with them and were Companions of the same misery pretended Persecution and Undertaking No better dealt they with some Presbyterians of Old England who being grievously persecuted here for Non-Conformity yet would they not so much a◠tolerate them in any corner of the Country yea not so much as in that which was next to the Barbarians where they could not but consequently be exposed to the greatest danger such were their mercies and bowels of compassion towards their poore and afflicted Brethren whom yet they acknowledged to be of very sound Doctrine and holinesse of life As for this Argument M. S. because he cannot answer the Minor he sends me to New England to seeke the Solution But I purpose not to undertake such a voyage for Independent Sophistications since the Argument convicts my understanding M. S. 2. Answereth That he would
I know not what M. S. meaneth by his strength here for he seemeth to say That it is strength of reason and then we deny the Antecedent for if they had any they should do well to shew it and not to vaunt of it 2. He is not confident to call it evident Ergo It is inevident and obscure Ergo It is uncertain if these reasons or strength be taken from Nature for in Nature all Reasons that are inevident are uncertain if he meaneth Reasons taken from divine Authority then he needed not to doubt in saying if not in evidence for all Arguments taken from divine Authority are inevident And the meanest Logicians know that Argumentum ab Authoritate ductum est inevidens inartificiale And Faith which is evermore inevident is such because that it is grounded upon Authority Heb. 11.1 M. S. 2. They i. e. Independents have a like if not a more considerable strength against that way of Government which they cannot submit unto A. S. Ergo What followeth They must be tolerated A. S. 1. Is this to argue to assume the Antecedent in both these Arguments so peremptoriously without any proof Truely a Midwife might have argued every jot as well I deny it and let the Reader judge of both our Reasons 2. I deny the Consequence for howbeit they had as considerable a strength of Reasons as the other way yet should not their way be admitted for if the other be already approved by Authority and the Independent way not yet admitted the old way which is as probable as theirs is not to be put away for yours For all Changes in Church and State are very dangerous unlesse some urgent necessity presse it 3. And there is something in their way which may easily overthrow all States and Churches wherein it may be admitted M. S. 3. They are by their fiercest Adversaries and Opposites themselves acknowledged ten times over for very pious godly and learned men Ergo They must be tolerated A. S. These men are almost mad in praising and in hearing of others praise their Piety Godlinesse and Learning as if this were the finis ultimus of this Sect Neither ever heard I of any Sect so foolish as this that is ever more trumpeting abroad its own praises We are holy we are pious we have the power of piety And all the World acknowledges us for holy men And there is none that have the power of piety or like to have it in any juncture of time to come as we have it These seem rather the Expressions of some distempered brain or at least of a man very vain then of any wise or godly Christian Wherefore instead of sparing of you and concealing some of these weaknesses of yours which I thought to have passed over in silence since I am put to it hear what I say to the Argument 1. I deny then the Consequence for howbeit some acknowledge you for such yet they are but very few who acknowledge you such 2. And yet it is but Tostimonium humanum which is onely a Topick or probable and no certain or necessary Argument 3. It is but the Testimony of one man viz. of A. S. whereof for any thing I know ye make little esteem 4. I deny That if A. S. commend you for some good Ergo Ye should be tolerated in your foolish and pernicious practises which cannot but in all morall probability overthrow the State and the Church of God There must onely be one Government admitted in the Church what ever it be whether yours ours or any other and that for fear of Divisions 2. As for the Antecedent indeed it was my judgement of Charity which suffereth long and is kinde envieth not vaunteth not it self as ye do is not puffed up as ye are that is not easily provoked thinketh not evil beareth all things beleeveth all things hopeth all things endureth all things 1 Cor. 13.4 5 7. But since that time having read M. S. his Book licenced doubtlessely by some Independent or some other disguised person so stuffed with these his impious Maximes against the Church the State and all Piety and with mine own ears heard some very dangerous Expressions of the Sectaries who passe under the name of Independents I have at least changed much or suspended my former judgement of them For Charity rejoyteth not in Iniquity but rejoyceth in the Truth I will not speak ill of your persons but if Master Edwards have such things under the Independents hands as his Book mentions as in Charity I am bound to beleeve he hath I am bound to think otherwayes then I have done of your Opinions And howbeit I had never heard or read any such things of the Independents yet it is too much for you Sir so proudly to insult upon a bare judgement of Charity Know you not that praises and great commendations of vertues are rather to shew what men should be then alwayes what they are Wise and godly men rest not so much upon other mens Testimonies as upon that of a good Conscience M. S. 4. Argument Independents have been at least the generality of them and so continue men of the most affectionate and with all the most effectuall activity and forwardnesse to promote the great cause of Religion Parliament and Kingdom Ergo Without all doubt they must be tolerated A. S. 1. It is a wonder how this man is not ashamed bringing so little reason for his Conclusion so to vaunt 2. This Antecedent is odious containing nothing else but a proud and impertinent comparison I should be sorry to go on upon this foolish way with him God knoweth who have most advanced the businesse or retarded it Truely it is the common speech of wise men that none but the Independent Faction retards Businesses in the Assembly 3. If the way to promote the businesse be to plead for impunity in favour of Gods Enemies of all Heretiques and Schismatiques this M. S. indeed then promoteth it as much as any man 4. As for the activity of your Faction ye are all but too active in those things wherein your pains were a great deal better spared M. S. his fifth Argument Independents are as deep in or if you will as much out of their Estates rateably for the support of this Cause as any other sort of men whatsoever Ergo They must be tolerated in their Religion and practises A. S. 1. And yet will he continue as the Pharisees did to publish with sound of Trumpet the Works of Supererogation of the Independent Sect. 2. Yea but what if many say that many of them have bettered their Estates by this War 3. I will not enter into contestation with this man about mens disbursements in this Cause for I never reckoned with them what was in their purses or how much they are now out of purse But it seemeth that M. S. hath calculated to a Farthing every mans Estate and what he hath laid out in this War If so I pray
publick conscience which he is bound to have as a publick person conforme to Law for he sitteth not upon the Tribunall as a private but as a publick Person not as Iames or Charles but as King Iames or King Charles So in this there is no policy as this malignant spirit calumniateth I omit here his deepe policy in comparing the Civill Magistrate 1. King Parliament c. with a Dogge 2. And the Presbytery with an Ape whether this be not prophanation and impiety at least and that in a pretty high degree I submit to the judgement of those whom it so nearely concerneth if they be Apes I wonder you will call them Brethren VVhat brother Ape and so Apes your selves according to your Tenet so let the Conclusion hold for you but we deny the Antecedent in so far forth as applyed to Presbyterians M. S. Obj. 3. Surely the frame and constitution of Presbyterie is exactly calculated for the Meridian of this present World And indeed A. S. himselfe is somewhat ingenuous in acknowledging that this Government hath little or no relation unto or compliance with the World which is to come professing p. 13. the externall peace of the Church to be the adequate end thereof The Argument will be thus That Government whose adequate end is the externall peace of the Church hath no compliance with the world to come but is calculated for the Meridian of this world But Presbyterian Government is a Government whose adequate end is the Externall peace of the Church as A. S. confesseth p. 13. Ergo The Presbyterian Government hath no compliance c. A.S. To be short here Note when I say that the peace of the Church is the adequate end of Church-Government 1. That by the Church-Government I meane not the Church according to her essentiall but to her accidentall or visible forme 2. And consequently that by Government I meane not the internall Government which belongeth to her in respect of her essentiall but the externall which belongeth to her by reason of her accidentall or visible forme the first is proper to Christ or God in Christ who only hath a domination over our soules But the second he exerciseth by the Ministery of men 3. That by the peace of the Church I meane not a worldly but a spirituall peace or quietnesse voyd of Ecclesiasticall trouble by corruption of Doctrine Discipline or manners for in the midst of wordly troubles and persecutions this peace may be had neither can there one word of all this be denyed since our dispute here is only about the visible Church 4. That by the word end I mean't not 1. Finem ultimum simpliciter sed in suo genere i. e. not the ultimate end absolutely but in its owne kind nor 2. Finem operantis Artificis or operis but Artis Operationis not the end of the Agent of the Artist or of his worke but of the Art or Habitude whereby he operateth and of his Operation Nor 3. the externall end of Government such as is the World to come or eternall life but the internall end which is her peace and quietnesse which however it be an externall accident of the Churches Essence yet it is the intrinsecall end of her externall Government Nor 4. the common end of Government which is the end of other things also as the World to come which is the end of our Faith Charity of all Christian vertues of Discipline and Government also but the proper and particular end thereof 5. Non finem obtinendum solum but producendum And I could not nor should have taken it otherwise as this man most impertinently would have me to doe for things are defined notified and distinguished by their internall proper ultimate ends in suo genere and that are to be wrought and not by their extrinsecall common absolutely ultimate ends c. as the Philosophers doe teach us So I answer that the Proposition is false for Church-Government may have the Externall peace of the Church for its adequate Intrinsecall proper ultimate end in sno genere and for the end of Government and Discipline which is finis producendus And the World to come for its Extrinsecall common absolutely ultimate end for the end that is to be obteined and end of the Agent and of his worke And if it be objected that the adequate end of Church-Government should containe in it selfe all its ends and consequently the life to come I answer that that is most false for it containeth only its partiall ends 2. If it be the Internall end it containeth not the Externall end thereof If it be the proper end it cannot containe the common end but the common end containeth it neither is it needfull that it containe the mediate and ultimate ends or the ultimate absolutely and the ultimate in its own kind or sort for only it containeth in it the partiall ends such as are not subordinate as the mediate and ultimate end or as the ultimate absolutely and in its own kind or sort And the reason of it is this because as partes and compartes so partiall ends are coordinate and opposed one to another and not subordinate as the mediate and ultimate end or as the ultimate absolutely and in its own kind as the Externall peace of the Church and the VVorld to come Object 4. The sum of M.S. his discourse p. 33. § 5. and p. 34. commeth to this If the civill Magistrate hath not a Directive power in the Church but the Church-Assemblies have it alone then the Church-Assembly must have the gift of Infallibility A.S. This is a Papisticall Argument whereby the Iesuites prove that the Romish Church cannot erre But I answer him and Papists both Ans 1. I deny this connexum for a Directive power may be where there is no infallibility 2. The Independents arrogate to their Congregationall Churches and Presbyteries a Directive power without any gift of infallibility 3. They grant a Directive power unto the Civill Magistrate whom they grant to be fallible 4. And howbeit the Civill Magistrate be fallible yet they will not grant that the Presbyterie may or should iudge over him no more can the Civill Magistrate judge over the Presbyterie however it be fallible 5. For by the same reason any man might judge them both since they are both fallible 6. Howbeit any Iudge either Secular or Ecclesiasticall be fallible yet must they be obeyed till judicially they be convicted of error otherwise controversies should never be ended since wee have no infallible Iudge or Iudgement in this life unlesse God extraordinarily should reveale it to us Object 5. After such stuffe as we have seen M. S. p. 34. § 2. guesses what I meane by a Directive power and brings three acceptions of it but all short of what I meane The first is that it may signifie a liberty or power of considering advising and proposing of what may be expedient to be done in matters of Religion and for the