Apostles and consequently that I contrary to your L. supposall do heere instruct the Academians in the same fayth and Religion which first florished in those primatiue tymes Now that neuer any change was made at Rome in poynts of fayth and Religion your Lordship may be fully satisfyed by perusing the former Dialogue betweene the Honorable Cardinall and Doctour Whitakers VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord. Michaeas will tyre you with his wearisome speeches and if you would suffer him will perorate whole dayes togeather for he hath a peculiar deliuery of himselfe in seeking to decline his accusations by framing his tedious discourses touching the supposed honour of his owne Religion wholy impertinent to that for which he now stands arraigned Therefore to cut off all such exhorbitancyes of speeches I now in your L. presence to the greater accumulation of his former crymes do in this last place accuse him of being a Popish Priest a pernicious state of Men and such as your Lordship well knowes is incompatible with the Lawes of our Realme Thus we may obserue how the ouershadowing Prouidence of God hath disposed in these matters that if by supposall his former faults might passe vncorrected yet this last breaketh through the bounds of all Commiseration and Pitty Therefore your L. may do well to examyne him strictly hereof and cause him to answere without any reserued sense of equiuocation the peculiar Dialect of the Papists in like cases L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Perceaue you not heere Michaeas how in your accusation one cryme is euer at the backe of an other like waues following one another till they all ouerflow and ouerwhelme you You are heere lastly accused to be one of that state of Men I meane a Romish Priest which are insufferable in our Nation and whom as guilty of many foule transgressions our Lawes do most seuerely punish Tell me therefore directly whether you be a Priest or no. MICHAEAS Sweete Iesus what sallyes of Malice hath your tongue M. Vice-Chancelour made in this your long Processe of my accusation First by charging me with reall disobedience to the supreme Magistrate then with penning the foresaid Catholicke Treatises and now for the close of all with being a Priest Where I see howsoeuer my cause be good yet I must be reputed Euill But leauing that and to answere to my Lords last Question Since then I am demaunded thereof I will not conceale my greatest honour I grant I am a Catholicke and Roman Priest created by the reuerend hand of the most illustrious and learned Bellarmine But is the very name of a Priest though otherwise not to be charged with any fault so distastfull in this place Or shall it be at any tyme heere asked Cur de solo nomine punitis facta Your Lordshipps iudgment no dowbt would hearein be altered if so you would vouchsafe to take into your Consideration the antiquity of the holy Order of Pryesthood since our Sauiour hymselfe was the first Priest in the tyme of Grace typically adumbrated by that of Melchisadech Tu es Sacerdos socundum ordinem Melchisadech Of which poynt the goldentonged Father thus wryteth Videns typum cogita oro veritatem Thus Christ was the supreme Priest Man but the Ministeriall Priest O how reuerently do the auncient Fathers speake of Priesthood Nazianzene tearmeth a Priest the Mediatour betweene God and Man Chrysostome honored Prieshood so much as that he did wryte a booke entituling it De Sacerdotio among infinit other passages of which subiect he thus saith Non Angelus non Archangelus non alia quaeuis creata potentia sed ipso Paracleâ—us Ordinem eiusmodi disposuit Neither Angel nor Archangell nor any created Power but only our Aduocate Comforter Meaning Christ did institute this Order of Pryesthood Ambrose in like sort did wryte of this subiect styling his Treatise De dignitate Sacerdotale In which booke speaking of the manner how a Priest is created thus wryteth in the first Chapter thereof Homo imponit manum Deus langitur gratium Sacerdos imponit simplicem dexteram Deus benedicit potenti dexiera Man doth impose the hand but God giueth the grace The Priest doth lay his humble hand meaning vpon hym who is to be made Pryest But God doth blesse with his pouerfull hand Leo the first thus worthely wryteth hereof Omnium Sacerdotum tam excellens est electio vt haec quae in alijs membris Ecclesiae vacant a culpa in illis tamen habeantur illicita The state of all Pryests is so noble as that some things theare are meaning mariadge of Pryests which being lawfull in other members of the Church are neuerthelesse prohibited in them To be short Pacâ—nus thus amplifieth vpon this poynt Plebi vnde Spiritus quam non consignat vnctus Sacerdos How can that Society or company of Men receaue the Holy Ghost if the annoynted Priest doth not signe blesse them Thus farre in generall of the dignity of Pryesthood which I hope in modesty and without the lest tuche of Vanity I may alledge forbearinge many more authorityes of lyke nature lest my producing of them might be misconstiued my selfe being a Priest and therefore interressed in them by some one or other deprauing tongue VICE-CHANCELOVR What you haue heare Michaeas alledged out of Antiquity in honour of Priesthood we willingly acknowledge since it was then ment and now is truly applyed to the Ministers of the Ghospell and others of the faythfull in regard of the spirituall sacrifices of Prayer dayly offered vp by them who therefore in a metaphorical and improper acceptance of the word Pryest and as the phraze is are tearmed Pryests MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour You are fowly mistaken heerein willing it seemes you are to vendicate to your owne Ministerial function the prayses due to Priesthood But I hope you will stand to the iudgment of S. Austin and other Fathers herein S. Austin then thus speaketh of this poynt Soli Episcopi Presbiteri propriè vocantur in Ecclesia Sacerdot s. Thus Austin by expressely calling Bishops Presbyters only Priests excludeth this secondary and improper signification of the word Priest which you seeme heare to mantayne and which in your sense may be truly extended to Weomen who offer vp the Sacrifice or prayer to God as well as Men. And according hereto it is that Ireneus acknowledging with you that in a restrayned sense all iust Men may be called Priests doth further teach a peculiar Pryesthood of the Apostles different from the former kynd of Pryesthood which saith he dayly attends vpon God and the Altar And hence also it is that the greeke Word 〈…〉 ereus which properly signifieth Sacerdos is applyed to Christian Pryests by Eusebius Ierome Ignatius and finally to omit others by Dionysius Areopagita I may ad in further warrant of this Truth that the auncient Fathers do make frequent mention of Altars now to be in the Church of Christ But
Augustins comming into England Thirdly it is prooued that at the tyme of the conference betweene Augustine and the Briton Byshops the greatest difference in matters of Fayth and Religion wherupon they stoode were but two poynts cheifly consisting in Ceremony to wit the keeping of Easter day in it vsuall tyme and the forme of Baptizing according to the rites of Rome Fourthly and lastly it is graunted that Augustine here planted and preached to the English all Articles and points of the present Romane Religion or Papistry as you Protestants do vsually style it Now M. Doctour what other resultancy can here be made out of all these Premisses but this To wit that the Church of Rome in Augustins time teaching Papistry was wholy agreeable the two points or Ceremonies of keeping Easter day and of baptising with the Rites of Rome only excepted with the Fayth and Religion which was planted among the Britons by Ioseph of Aramathia in the Apostles daies and consequently that the Church of Rome teaching Papistry did neuer suffer any change in her Faith and Religion since the Apostles departed This is the Argument wherin I graunt I partly insult it is inauoidable it is a demonstration And pryse it Micheas as a strong Aries beating downe bearing before it whatsoeuer may seeme to withstand the Truth in this pointe controuerted MICHEAS In deed my Lord it seemes to me very forcible and you did well to reserue it to the last place that so like sweet-meats it might pleasingly close vp the tast of our iudgments Neuerthelesse the consideration of it doth not diminish with me the force of your other former arguments for though Better be better yet followeth it not but that Good is good D. WHITAKERS My Lord This your argument is tyed togeather with many links and breake but one of them all the rest are loosed And indeed it is but an argument drawne from Authority Negatiuely and by Omission only which you know is little valued in the schooles For the hinge as I may say or weight of it only consisteth in this That at the meeting of Augustine and the Briton Bishops dissented from Augustine But of other greater points we read no mention made among them and therfore for any thing we know the Britons might aswell disagree from Augustine in all other Articles passed ouer in silence as agree with them CARD BELLARM. How improbable how absurd how impossible is this you say And take heede M. Doctour that this your answere be not controuled by your owne secret conscience and beware of much practising the like hereafter since the Character of any bad course impressed by a long habit at length becoms indelible But to the point Consider all the Circumstances of the busines at that tyme handled and then deliuer an impartiall and euen censure The meeting was occasioned only for comparing their Faiths together Augustine imitating therin S. Paul vt conferat cum illis Euangelium quod praedicat in Gentibus The Britons euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox did beare themselues at the first against Augustine with great pertinacy stubbernes and therfore the lesse probable it is that they would yeeld to him in any point of moment more then was agreeable to their owne Religion The differences betweene them after much disquisition and search are recorded to be only about the two former points of Ceremonies and seeming indifferency The Recorder of this great Passage was principally S. Bede who ex professo did write most elaborately and punctually the Ecclesiasticall History of England in those times and therein was obliged by his designed method not to register the smallest occurrents and wholy to omit the greatest Now then can we dreame that the Doctrines touching the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse Praying to Saints Purgatory Free-will Iustification by works Images Monachisme the Primacy of Peter and some others all being Articles of greatest importance and particulerly taught by S. Augustine were either not mentioned and not once spoken of in that serious discourse betweene Augustine and the Briton Bishops or they being then painfully discussed and ventilated the Britons being so refractory and stiffe with Augustine in the smalest points would quietly and without resistance embrace all these high doctrines as Innouations and repugnant to their Fayth first planted by Ioseph of Aramathia Or if the Briâ—on Bishops veâ—lded not their assent to these supreame poynts of Fayth of Rome would not such their reluctation and dislike haue bin recorded by S. Bede and other writers of those tymes who would not omit to relate the Britons stifnes and coldnes in the least matters of this History It is great weakenes but to suppose such impossibilities It is madnes and lunacy to beleeue them Therfore my absolute and last resolution here is that the Fayth of Augustine was then one and the same in all Articles with the Fayth of the Britons first preached to them in the Apostles dayes the Ceremonies of Baptising and of keeping Easter day cheifly excepted which lesser errours S. Augustine obseruing the Britons stiffnes thought perhaps would sooner be recalled by a patient sufferance of them for a tyme then by any violent meanes vsed at the first to the contrary like to some diseases which are best cured by continuing the diseases Now for the fuller close of this poynt to wit touching the agreement of the Doctrine taught by S. Augustine with the then Doctrine and Fayth of the Briton Bishops I will adde the acknowledgement of the Briton Bishops themselues of whom S. Bede thus relateth Britones quidem confitentur intellexisse se veram esse viam iustitiae quam praedicaret Augustinus so vnanimous we see were the Britons Augustine in their Fayth and Religion and therfore it was not strange that at the last as D. Fulke affirmeth Augustine did obtayne the ayd of the British Bishops to the conuersion of the Saxons And thus far of this argument the which shall serue as the Catastrophe or end of this my Scene wherin I haue vndertaken though more then by rigour of method I was tyed vnto to prooue by positiue arguments and reasons that the Church of Rome hath neuer suffered any change in her Fayth and religion since the Apostles dayes my cheife allectiue Micheâ—s inducing me therto being only your satisfaction in this your imposed Subiect or Question MICHEAS My L. Cardinall I render you humble thankes and I must say that these your former arguments produced seeme to me very moouing and except M. Doctour be able to repell them with other more forcible arguments they will I coÌ„fesse impell my Iudgment to giue it free and full consent to the beleeuing of that point for the proofe wherof they are by your Lordship alleadged CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour Seeing there is no truth so illustrious and radiant but that in an vndiscerning eye it may seeme to be clowded for the time with the interposition of some weake Obiections
Lord the doctour you see is gone and indeed I much dislike his bitter eiaculation of reprochfull words against the Church of Rome little sorting to the presumed grauity of a christian Doctour but the matter is not great since obloquy is but basenes and the skumme of malice and that tongue which knowes not to honour cannot dishonour But now touching your learned dispute it hath I humbly thanke the Lord of Hoasts and your charitable endeauour wrought in me so much as that I well know towards what shoare I may anker and stay my heretofore floating and vnsetled iudgment I see it is already acknowledged euen by her enemies that the Church of Rome enioyed in her primitiue times a true perfect and incorrupt faith as the Apostle doth fully assure vs I see that your selfe my Lord partly by handling the Subiect in grosse partly by distribution of times in which this supposed change is dremed to haue happened partly by displaying the diuersity of the Protestants Opinions touching the first coÌ„ming of Antichrist who is said to haue beene the first who wrought this change and partly by other forcible arguments haue demonstratiuely and irrepliably euicted that since the Apostles there hath bene no change of faith made at all in the Church of Rome Finally I see that the examples of this imaginary change instanced by the Doctour who as I am aduertised hath more laboured in the search of this subiect then any other Protestant were so defectiue aâ—d maimed as that they receiue theire full answere and encounter both from your former discussed heads as also from your Lordship proouing a greater confessed antiquity of the said Articles then the instances do vrge and lostly euen from the Doctours liberall acknowledgment who plainly coÌ„fesseth that he knoweth not the time when this his change receiued it beginning Since then all these points are made so euident and vndeniable I grant they haue swaighed and ouer-ballanced my iudgment indifferently heretofore to either side enclining and haue enduced me indubiously to beleeue that the fayth of the Church of Rome at this day is as at the first it was to wit pure spotlesse and inchangeable But now seeing no man can be a perfect Christian except he actually enioy the Sacrament of Baptisme which is the first dore as you Christians teach that leadeth a man to the misteries of your Religion therefore most illustrious Cardinall I renouncing my former Iudaisme and wholy rendring my selfe a true disciple and seruant of Christ Iesus as acknowledging that the Redemption of Israell is in him come do here prostrate my selfe in desire to receiue this Sacrament euen from you that as your tongue is the cheife instrument vnder the highest for my beleefe of the Catholicke fayth so your hand may be the like instrument for the conferring vpon me the benefit of that sacred Mistery where by a man is first incorporated and as it were matriculated in the bosome of the Catholicke Church CARD BELLARM. Worthy Micheas I much ioy that our discourse hath wrought so happy a resolution in you as to embrace the Catholicke and Roman fayth and giue sole thankes to him therefore who is higher then the highest Heauen and yet as low as the Center of the earth who thus hath vouchsafed by his grace to descend to the bottome of your harte and let the remembeance of your precedent staine in Iudaisme be a spurre for your greater perfection in the Christian Religion So shall you resemble that body which receiueth it greater health from it former sicknes And be sure that euery day you encrease more and more in Christian vertues nulla dies sine linea And takeheed that you grow not lukewarme in this your resolution or come to a stand of your present feruour But remember that such motions of the soule of this nature which are stationary are therein become Retrograde since here not to go forward is to go backeward And as touching the precedent subiect of our discourse rest you assured that the faith of Christ first preached in Rome was neuer yet in any one dogmaticall point altered since it first plantation The Church of Rome was and doubtlesly is the true Church of Christ which Church is so farre from broaching change and innouation by her intertayning but any one Errour as that therefore it is most truly prophesied of it that it is a MouÌ„taine prepared in the top of Mountaines exalted about Hils It being indeed seated of such a hight as that neither the thundring fragors of the persecutours cruelty nor the windes of Hereticks speaches and endeauours were euer able to reach so high as by introducing nouelty in fayth to disioynt the setled frame thereof so true is the saying of that holy father whose fire of zeale brought him to the flames of Martyrdome adulterari non potest sponsa Christi incorrupta est et pudica Now touching your baptizing Micheas wee will take such present course therein as shall giue you all full satisfaction MICHEAS I humbly thanke your Lordship But I am further here to aduertise your Lordship that if so it might be thought lawfull and conuenient that he who heretofore denyed Christ might after be permitted to be a dispenser of the Mysteries and treasure of Christ I could then greatly wish that after I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme at your hands I might be aduanced to the holy Order of Preisthood that so now in the last scene of my old age my endeauours of this nature hereafter to be attempted in the Catholicke Church might partly redeeme my former mispent labours in the Iewish Synagogue My single course of life and vnmarryed state best sorteth thereto and my owne desire is most vehement and forcing And indeed I am persuaded that the profitable talents of a good Christian ought in part to resemble the engendring riches of an vsurer who breeds vpon siluer and whose Tocòs or interest money is no sooner begotten then it begetteth So should it fare with a man of sufficiency deuoted to Christ his seruice who being become of late his adopted sonne should himselfe instantly labour to be a parent vnder Christ of other such like sonnes O how ineffable a comfort it is when a man may truly yet modestly say through his spirituall trauell fruitfully employed towardes others as your Lordship may now of me In Christo â—esu per Euangelium vos genui And how truly honourable is that profession of life which consisteth in the negotiation and trafiking as I may say of saluation of soules Et ero mercator in domo Domini Exercituum CARD BELLARM. I Commend much your great feruour herein But yet I hold it more secure to pause for a time to see whether this your resolution touching Priest hood being but the Primitiae of your spirit be steddy and permanent or whether hereafter it may alter and wauer And if so then would it follow that your present taking of that course would
rope too the Protestant promiseth reputation honour and riches Then the Vnderstanding and the Will do easily partake together to the betraying of the Soule by entertaining an erroneous Religion priuiledged with authority seconded with the streame of the tymes and aduantaged through meanes of preferring and here then that Sentence houldeth it force As gold is tryed by the stone so man by gold But let me stay my selfe I feare I haue spoken ouerlowde and the Schollers ouerhearing me out of their Colledge windows being so neare to vs may much blame this my Censure The second thing I note but pardon me most florishing Academies I protest I speake with the Apostle in charitate non ficta and not in any vpbrayding sense is that feminine Seruitours as employed for seruyle vses haue an ouer-free accesse into the Colledges a sight most strange in Catholicke vniuersityes and as Iam enformed much disliked by your owne Protestants O where vigour of youth Mansinnate propension the present inuiting obiect and the priuatnes of the place do all conspire together what dangerous effects of this Nature may they produce And we all see how apt the fyer is to take hould of any neare combustible mater But I had almost forgotten my selfe therefore leauing these poynts as meerly Perereà or impertinēcyes let vsdescend to some more serious discourse Touching my present fayth whereat you glance I grant I was a Iew both by byrth and Religion till by the infinite mercy of the Highest and the charitable endeuour of that most Illustrious and learned Cardinall in his disputes with D. Whitakers euen through waight of argument I was forced to embrace the Catholicke Fayth My Iudgement being till then but as Plato his Basatabula propending indifferently to Catholicke and Protestant and ready to receiue the wryting Impression of that Religion whichsoeuer it should be that came presented to myne eyes in the fayre attyre of venerable Antiquity OCHINVS I do much grieue Michaeas to see your candour and integrity thus distayned with the aspersion of superstition and glad I should be to lend a hand for the pulling you out of the myre of your present errours NEVSERVS Doubtlesly Michaeas your choyce of Religion hath proceeded from an indigested and raw censure which you haue made of the passages of the former disputation by you mentioned And therefore if you had gone with greater leasure therein your successe had bene the more fortunate But yet your sicknes is not vnto death fot there is tyme for your cure And since Grace and Temptation are the seedes of the Holy Ghost and the Diuell embrace that offered vnto you by God by shewing you the light of his Gospell and ouercome this being the bayte of Antichrist and my seruiseable labour shall no way be wanting to further so happy a change And the more I commiserate your present estate you erring out of Ignorance not out of malice for we see Saluation of your soule is the Circumference within which all your thoughts are bounded MICHAEAS Gentlemen I thanke you all and do interpret your words in the same language in which you did deliuer them I meane in the Dialect of your Charity And I see how ready your zeale is to take fyer vpon the least occasion of discourse Therefore assure your selues I am not ashamed of my fayth I am a Roman Catholicke at least and through the grace of God that working and efficatious Grace I meane which is the stone set in the Ring of Nature I am resolued so to liue and dye My resolution is so inalterable herein as that I trust through him who for his owne glory and in his owne Cause is euer ready to fortify the weake that your strongest assaults in dispute for I see thither your speeches tend shall not be able to beate me off the Station of my present Profession And I am the more confident in that with God causes are heard to speake not Persons And further you may rest certifyed that since the worthy Cardinals dispute with D. Whitakers I haue spent my whole tyme in the study of the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks and the Protestants and haue found diuers other most forcible inducements for my continuance in that fayth of which already I haue made election so certayne it is that the great Motion of Religion as it is newly entertayned by the iudgment turneth vpon many wheeles one still mouing and seconding another D. REYNOLDS May we entreate of you to show what Reasons are most preuayling for your not incorporating your selfe within our Protestant Church MICHEAS M. Doctour I will Besides the Argument handled betweene the Cardinall and D. Whitakers touching the supposed change of the fayth of Rome which to me still remaynes an vnauoydable Demonstration many other Reasons are and among the rest this oue I find by my perusall of Ecclesiasticall Historyes that the Protestant Church had it first being as I may say it Creation in the dayes of Luther or rather after then and not before coming out of an Abysse of Nothing Now what warrant can I haue after my leauing of the Iewish fayth which is confessed to be the true fayth for seuerall thousand yeares to implant my selfe in that Society of Christians whose Church my owne age being almost 70. is not thirty yeares elder then I am The truth of which point is euicted in that you are not able to instance the being of Protestants in any former Age. Now it is an inexpugnable verity that the Church of Christ is euer and in all ages to be most visible in her members Whereas on the contrary part some Protestants well discerning the want in their Church of this so necessary a Visibility haue bene forced to forge in their mindes a certayne imaginary and Inuisible Church and teaching that it is not necessary that the Church of Christ should be at all tymes Visible but that it may and often hath bene not only inconspicuous and inglorious but wholy latent and vnknowne But I feare I haue made an vnpleasing and ouer deepe incision in so dangerous a wound of your Church D. REYNOLDS See how the ambushment of your owne Passions I meane of preiudice and dislike betray your Iudgment And see how foulely euen in the beginning you are deceaued and how one errour in your words inuolues in it selfe a second errour For first we are ready and prepared at all tymes to prooue by particuler and most warrantable Instances that there haue bene men in euery age since the Apostles professing our Protestant Religion So farre off we are from acknowledging that the riuers of our fayth first issued out of Luthers fountayne Secondly it is your mistaking to thinke that the learned Protestants for what any Anonymous and illiterate scribler may blot his paper with by defending the contrary doctrine we regard not as acknowledging such a defect of Protestants do teach an inuisibility of the Church of Christ especially after the tymes of the comming
he aboundantly declareth that Wâ—clefe was condemned by the Church of Rome for his defence of many errours and Heresyes he subtilly beareth the Reader in hand though he expresseth not any of them in particular that all these Heresyes condemned in him were points of protestancy thereby to make show what a great number of protestant articles were beleiued in those dayes and how much the said Men did participate in doctrine with the protestants of these tymes But this is a meere sleight and imposture seeing it is euident that besides some few points of protestancy beleiued by Wiclefe Huâ— the Waldenses or Albigenses there were many more Heresyes mantayned by them then condemned by the Church of Rome Which are acknowledged for Heresyes both by Catholicks and Protestants and such as in no sort concerne the Protestant Religion as way euidently appeare from the perusing of the seuerall passages of the former Dialogue wherein the heresies of Wiclefe Hus the Waldenses and others are at large displayed From Wiclefe the pamphleter commeth to Geffray Chaucer And thus he is forced by his owne poetizing and forging art to beg some prouffe from Poets Of Chaucer he thus wryteth He did at large paint out the pryde lasciuious vicious and intellerable behauiour of the Popes Cardinalls and Cleargy c. adding much more securiliâ—y of his owne and setting downe certaine verses of Chaucer But what prooueth this For first we are not in reason to giue credit to euery verse dropping from the satyricall penne of Chaucer Secondly admit all were true that Chaucer writeth yet seeing his reprehensions do only touch manners and conuersation and not fayth it followeth not that Chaucer was a protestant as I haue intimated in the former examples or that the Protestant Religion was in his dayes professed which is the only point here to be prooued Thirdly if it must be concluded that Chaucer for such his wryting was a protestant then by the same reason may Spencer the Poet for his bitter taxing of the Cleargy in his Mother Hubbardstale and Daniel for his controuling of the present tymes touching Religion and Learning in his Musophilus be reputed Catholicks or Papists yet it is well knowne they both were Protestants and the later rather a puritan The Pamphleter next insisteth in one Walter Bruit an English Man liuing anno 1393 and puteth him forth for a protestant for his defending of diuers supposed doctrines of protestancy there set downe To this I answere first he alledgeth no authenticall writer affirming so much but only an obscure Register of the Bishop of Hereford and therefore it may iustly be suspected to be meerely suppositions and forged or rather that it is but feigned that such a writing is seeing such a writing may with more facility be coyned without any discouery of deceat therein as being to he found only among the Antiquityes belonging to the sayd Bishop who is a protestant Secondly suppose all for true yet seeing that Scedule prooueth the sayd Bruite to be a protestant but only in some points it followeth that he was Catholicke in the rest and therefore can no more be challenged for a protestant then for a Catholicke being the fayth of a professour in any Religion ought to be entyre perfect compleate otherwise no man can take his denomination and name from the same fayth Thirdly suppose him to be a Protestant in all points yet seing he is but one particular man that it cannot be prooued that others did communicate with him in doctrine his example cannot prooue the visibility of the Protestant Church since one man alone cannot be accounted for a Church Lastly this example serueth admitting it for true but for the tyme that Bruyte liued It not being able to be prooued that the doctrines of Protestancy imputed to him were taught and beleiued in all other Ages and Centuryes This donne the Pamphleter proceedeth to diuers burnt and put to death for their Religion in the dayes of King Henry the fourth the fift and the sixt King Edward the fourth and King Henry the seauenth Which testimonyes he taketh out of that lying Legend of Fox to which booke no more credit is to be giuen then to Esop fables But to these examples I reply first The Treatiser setteth not downe the Protestant articles mantayned by these men for their defence of which they are here presumed to be burned And therefore it well may be that they suffered death for their broaching of some other heresyes or blasphemyes not controuerted between the Protestant and the Catholicke therefore such Examples are wholy impertinent Secondly if we do admit the authority of Fox herein yet it proueth that those men lost their liues but for one two or three particular points at the most of protestancy mantayned seuerally by eich of them they embracing all other poynts of Catholicke Religion being both more in number and of greater importance And if it be otherwise then let this Authour prooue 〈◊〉 were Protestants in all chiefe Articles of Protestancy Now how insufficiently such examples can be suggested for the visibility of the Protestant Church in former Ages appeareth both from that already set downe in this Suruey as also more fully from the perusall of the former Treatise And here the Reader is to obserue that as such men aboue mentioned cannot iustly be taken for Catholicks so may they truly be ranged for hereticks seing a stubborne and contumacious beleife but of one heresy maketh a man an hereticke Whereas it must be an â—nanimous fayth of all points of true Religion without exception of any which is exacted for making a man a true beleiuer For the nature of true fayth doth here participate of the nature of an action morally vertuous Which is become defectiue through the want of one due circumstance only but is made perfect and complete by the necessary presence of all due circumstances After the former examples he commeth to Marsilius de Padua an acknowledged Hereticke Who cheifly erred in denying the Popes authority Now the Pamphleter to make his doctrine in this one point to seeme more diuers in seuerall points from the doctrine of the Catholicks subtilly deuideth it in setting it downe into seuerall branches But to what end is this example pressed Seing it was the errour but of one Man at that tyme and principally but in one Controuersy He comparting with the Catholicks in the doctrine of the Reall presence Purgatory Freewill praying to Saints merit of Works Traditions c. In the next place he vrgeth two Italian Poets Dante 's and Petrach for Protestants because they did wryte somewhat in depressing the Popes Authority in behalfe of the Emperour Now to discouer more fully the Pamphleters falshood in his producing these two Italian Poëts Dante 's and Petrach as supposed by him to teach that the Pope is Antichrist and Rome Babilon I will heare proue from their owne wrytings the meere contrary to this his
points touching fayth and Religion and different from the then Roman fayth wherewith Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. were then charged would be professed beleâ—ued and mantayned in these dayes by the enemyes of the Church of Rome And therefore it necessarily followeth that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo Wicklefe Hus and the rest are either in generall true or in generall false If false then haue we no sufficient Records that there were any in those dayes who beleiued any points of protestancy If true then certayne it is that as Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. mantayned some points of protestancy so with all that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants Secondly the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort None of all those which hitherto haue beene named or can be named meaning for Protestants but in some knowne confessed and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall saying All those whom before I haue named did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same Which we now teach What forhead or shame hath this Man For First as touching Waldo Wiclef Hus and their followers in whom through out this Pamphlet the Authour principally insisteth It is confessed by Osiander Luther Fox and other Protestants as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion which were of greatest moment as in the Reall Presence seuen Sacrements praying to Saincts Purgatory frewill Merit of Works and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion Concerning the proufe of all which poynts I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue Secondly touching other obscure Men alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part some two or three excepted exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe as he did the other touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome Ad hereto that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ for these Reasons ensuing First because they were but few in number and in regard of such their paucity the Predictions of the amplitude largnes and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number Touching which predictions peruse the beginning of the Dialogue Secondly because neither this Authour nor any other Protestant liuing how learned soeuer can proue that there were in those tymes specified by this Pamphleter any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church as is demonstrated in the former Tract Thirdly because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues and no longer The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together which poynt being so impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church which must at all tymes and ages be most visible but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages Thus far now Good Reader I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet Now for they better memory I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements practized by this Authour throughout his Booke And then I will remit both him and his Treatise to they owne impartiall Iudgment 1. First then I may remember his putting no name to his Booke nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete the two then disputants Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability seing otherwise he might well thinke that the setting of his owne Name downe especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet from one of the said two Fathers or from some other Priest 2. Secondly You may call to mynd that in the first part of his Treatise he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church then the Visibilitie thereof contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet cheifly to intimate thereby that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted as we Catholicks do teach it is and consequently that what few weake mayâ—ied and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy he was after to alledge the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility 3. Thirdly The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority or did wryte against the Manners conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome in all Articles of fayth 4. Fourthly He callengeth those for protestants who were condemned by the Church of Rome for other Errours then are mantayned by the protestants so making the ignorant Reader beleiue that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies this the pamphleter doth to the end that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater in his Readers eye 5. Fyftly he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes euer beleiued by Hus Wiclefe Waldo c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies as they mantayned are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestaÌ„ts The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe in expres Words any one of their Heresies 6. Sixtly For want of better Authours he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts as Chaucer Daâ—â—es Petrarch vrging them for protestants only by reason of their Satyrs written against the supposed abuses of Rome 7. Seauently he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe in long and tedious discourses touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo Hus Wiclef
them They would make men to beleiue that they had for the tymes and within their limits an absolute authority as if themselfs were Princes In lyke sort this Doctour reciteth Martin Seinâ—r making mention of a hundred thousand hands and what a stroake so many would stryke together and that Martin affirming their suyte should not be reiected especially in such a tyme whearein we now lyue in danger of our enemyes abroad and therefore had need of no causes of discoradgment at home Thus D. Bancroft cyteth the words of Martin Marprelet and then he giueth his sentence iudgment of this their Menage and tearmeth it thus A speech at least seditions This Doctour also further discoureth the threats of the Puritans against the Magistrate and he alledgeth one of their comminations thus in their owne words We haue sought to aduance this cause of God by humble suyte to the Parlament by wryting c. seing none of these meanes vsed by vs haue preuayled if it come by that meanes which will make all your harts to ake blame yourselfs Finally not to stay long hearein D. Succlif thus speaketh of Martin Marprelate Martin wisheth that the Parlament would bring in the Eldership notwithstanding her Maiestyes resisting of it vz by a rebellion They bragged of a hundred thousand hands and in playne â—â—armes talked of Massacring their Aduersaries Thus D. Succlif with whome I will heare end VICE-CHANCELOVR Though I cannot deny Michaeas the former attempts of the Protestants Yet since not only the Papists Doctrine but also the mainfold traiterous desigments and reall practizes of them against their Protestant Prinâ—es are no lesse tragicall then the former related by you are I do not see but that granting the Protestants to be faulty in defect of Loyalty you Papists may in a far more high degree be iustly insimulated within the said Cryme Good God your treasons and machinations haue bene so apparent and so approued by the consent almost of all other Papists as that I may truly pronounce that in the whole thronge of Papists a true and Loyal Papist towards his Protestant Soueraigne so rare such an one is is lyke a Diamond placed among many whyte Saphyrs So iust reason had the learned D. Morton to say of your Profession We may now expect as well a white Ethiopian as a loyall Subiect of this Religion MICHAEAS Alas M. Vice-Chancelour These are but verball exagerations without prouffe which as they are but wynde of spâ—enfull tongues so are they blowne away with the Wynd Be it that some Catholicke Doctours in certaine peculiar Cases do ascrybe a powrfull authority to the Pope against Princes And grant also that some few Catholicks haue proued to be to the ineffable greife and dislyke of all other good and sober Catholicks Disloyall to their Prince Yet since the difference both of their doctrines and circumstances of their attempts are incomparably short and inferiour to the doctrynes and reall insurrections of the Protestants against their Soueraignes You haue no reason M. Vice Chancelour thus to insult in galantry of such amplifying speeches against vs. Therefore I will paralell them heare together that so you seeing the greate disparty may â—ecall for shame those your speeches and suffer your cheekes to witnes your former errour And first touching the doctrine The Protestants I meane those former alledged Protestants do extend this power of deposing Princes to euery pore parochial superintendent who is Pope or so would be within his owne circuit yea for want of such a turbulent fellow if at any tyme theare can be a want of these they giue this liberty as aboue I haue showed to the base Common people and promiscuous multitude the many headed tyrants of all humane societyes The Catholicke deuynes who most defend such transcendency of proceedings do neuertheles ascrybe the doing of it to the Pope only who is a stranger and therefore further of from any such sudden present attempting and who himselfe in case of Heresy as a priuate person lyeth open to the same perill This also they teach must be done by many former sweete admonitions and proceedings To proceede to the attempts on both sides The Protestants haue actually deposed seuerall Kings Queenes and absolute soueraigns Thus is the King of Spayne deposed of a greater part of the Lowcontryes the King of France of certaine Cittyes in France The supreme Lord of Geneua of his Territory belonging to that Cittie The Emperour of many Imperiall Cittyes in Germany King Sigismond of his Kingdome of Sweueland and Finally his Maiesties Grandmother and Greatgrandmother of the Kingdome of Scotland The Pope and the Catholicks haue neuer yet to this day actually detroned any one absolute Protestant Prince or King throughout all Christendome of their Sates and Territoryes The greatest matter of this nature that can be alledged is the excommunications of King Henry the eight of England Queene Elizabeth his daughter and King Henry of France the fourth The Protestants haue come into the fyeld against their Catholicke Princes in many huge Armyes and hundred thousans of men as appeareth by the warrs made by them in the Low Countryes France Germany which warrs haue continued for many yeres The Catholicks neuer yet leuyed any such Armyes against their protestant Prince Lastly the Protestants haue not only deposed their Princes of seuerall states and Countryes but they haue really impatronized themselues of the sayd states and keept them in their owne possession as is ouer manifestly euident by the examples of Rochel in France Geneua Holland Zeland seuerall parts of Germany Sweueland Transiluania c. The Catholicks to this very day haue not made themselues Lords of any one towne or Citty much lesse of any state or Kingdome which haue belonged to their protestant Princes And thus farre touching the libration and weighing in an euen hand the doctrine and attempts taught and made by ProtestaÌ„ts Catholicks in point of disloyalty against their lawfull dread soueraigns of a different Religion And now M. Vice-Chancelour after the true vnfoulding of these matters which afore were lapped vp in a great mistaking I demaund of you where are your former Termini Conuertibilis of Papistry Disloyalty Your similitude of one Diamond among many worthles Saphyrs And D. Mortons strange beast As if all Papists and â—o Protestants were guilty of Treason and Rebellion against their lawfull Princes so fowly you see your selfe was mistaken therein and so wildly did your Doctourâ—aue â—aue of a whyte Ethiopian L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas I am tyred with learning thus much of this distastfull Theame and I am vnwilling you should spinne out this discours to any further lenght Therefore you may heere end And truly I would scarse haue beleiued till now my owne eyes much lesse my eares that the Protestants wrytings and actions had stood so iustly subiect to this kind of Reprehension But I must yield though with greife to such euident testimonyes as you haue produced
amazement to see in a most noble Country where the Ghospell which forbiddeth all Rapine is presumed to be truly preached that men free not borne Bondslaues should thus in body and state only for feare of offending God and desire of sauing their soules lye prostrate to the depradations robberyes of certaine hungery Refuse and Outcasts of men who make show at least though wrongfully to warrant all these their pillages by force of the statute Law though otherwise prohibited by all Diuine and humane Law Si est dolor sicut dolor horum And if it fortune that any Priest be taken or Recusants do appeare then is the Pryest assured and the Catholicks in danger to be committed to a darke and loathsome prison there to remayne the Priest sometymes in fettars so long as it shall please the subordinate Magistrate His Maiesty who is most proue to mercy pitty and commiseration being wholy ignorant of such outrages and proceedings But My Lord. How base so euer the Priests Catholicks of England seeme to be in the eyes of their Aduersaryes yet no doubt their state is most gratefull through this their imprisonment in the sight of God and honorable in the iudgment of all foraine Catholicke nations who in regard of the others endurance may iustly apply to the said imprisoned Priests Catholicks that sentence of a most auncient Father Carcer habet tenebras sed lumen estis ipsi habet vincula sed vos soluti Deo estis triste illic expirat sed vos odor estis suauitatis LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE Theese exorbitancyes of proceedings Michaeas whereof you speake if any such be the Law chastizeth and the Offendours are punishable neither doth the supreme Magistrat geue allowance of them Yet heare Michaeas you are to remember that though wrong be not to be recompensed with wrong and Cruelty with Iniustice The tymes haue bene I meane in the reigne of Queene Marie When the Professours of our Religion did not only suffer losse of Goods but euen death itselfe And therefore there appeareth lesse reason why you Romanists should so tragically complayne at your present afflictions Since in so doing you are lyke to those Men who perpeâ—rate impietyes yet expostulate of Wrong MICHAEAS Indeede my Lord I grant that this is the vulgar recrimination often vrged and reinforced by the Protestants for the more depressing of our pressures in the eye of others yet though I will not vndertake the defence of all the procedures of those tymes myselfe being a stranger both to the Nation and to the affayres of those dayes Neuerthelesse let it not be offensiue vnto you my honerable Lord if I vnfould the reason why such actions in that Queens tyme may stand lesse subiect to the censure of an iniustifiable punishment then theese in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth and since The reason is this In Q. Marâ—es tyme the Professours of any Religion different from the Catholicke and Roman Religion were punished by certaine Canon and Imperiall Lawes made by most auncient Popes Emperours they not then hauing any forknowledg that Protestancy should rather sway in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth And this they did in regard that all such different Religions were reputed and â—oulden as Innouations and most repugnant to the auncient Catholicke fayth Now that ProtestaÌ„cy was to be accounted in Queenes Maryes reigne a mere Innouation in faith as well as any other sect appeareth euen from the free acknowledgment of the learned Protestants who teach expressly that for theese foureteene or fyfteene hundred yeeres the ProtestaÌ„t fayth was neuer so much as heard or thought of till Luthers dayes I will heare content myselfe for greater breuity with the authorityes of two or three Protestants Do we not then find M. Parkins thus to coÌ„fesse hereof For many hundred yeres our Church was not visible to the World an vniuersal Apostasy ouer spreading the whole face of the Earth And doth not Sebastianus Francus the Protestant confesse the same in theese words For certaine the externall Church togeather with the Sacramenti vanished away presently after the Apostles departure and that for theese foureteene hundred yeres the Church hath not beene externall and Visible In lyke sort D. Fulke speaking of the Protestant Church doth he not thus wryte The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes A verity confessed by Luther hymselfe thus vaunting of his owne supposed true faith Christum anobis primo vulgaâ—um audemus gloriari We dare boast that Christ was first preached by vs. Thus then we see that Protestancy was punished in Q. Maryes reigne as an Innouation in fayth and religion neuer afore that tyme dreamed of But now the case is farre otherwise touching the afflictions layed vpon the Catholicks for professing of their fayth since they are punished by certaine Parlamental statuts only decreed not past some threescore yeres since by the authority of a Woman Prince against a religion which by the learned Aduersaries lyke acknowledgment hath possessed all Christendome theese many hundred yeres and indeed so many hundred yeres as the Protestant Church is confessed by them to haue bene latent and inuisible And therefore those statâ—â—s were decreed not against the Catholicke Religion as against an Innouation but as against the till then only and sole Religion professed by all the Christiaâ—s through out the whole world To this end we find M. Napper a learned Protestant thus acknowledging Betweene the yeres of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian Papisticall reigne began reigning vniuersally without any debatible contradiction one thousand two hundred sixty yeres And as conspiring with the former Protestant herein the Centurists do euen from the tymes of Constantyne charge both hym and euery age and Century since till Luthers dayes with the Profession of our present Roman Religion Thus now your Lordship may clearly discouer the greate disparity betwene the proceedings of Queene Mary and Q. Elizabeth Since in the former Queens tyme the Lawes wheareby Sectaries were punished for their Religion were instituted many hundred yeres since In this later Q. raigne the Statuts were first made at the beginning of her comming to the Crowne which is yet in the memory of eich Man being but of reasonable greate yeres Those lawes were enacted by Popes and generall â—ouncells to whose charge and incumbency the burden of Religion is peculiarly by God committed secunded otherwise by the secular authority of Emperours and particularly of 〈◊〉 Valentinian and Marcian Theese were first inuented by a Woman and a Parlament of Lay Persons the incompetent iudges of fayth and Religion Breifly by the former Decrees a Religion confessed by the cheife Professours of it to be neuer heard of at lest for foureteene hundred yeres together and thearefore to be an innouation of fayth which is held by Catholicks to be a destruction of fayth necessary to Soules health is interdicted and prohibited By theese later
THE CONVERTED IEW OR CERTAINE DIALOGVES BETWEEâ— MICHEAS A LEARNED IEW. And others touching diuers points of Religion controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants Written by M. IOHN CLARE a Catholicke Priest of the Society of IESVS Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of OXâ—â—RD and CAMBRIDGE The leafe following sheweth the Interlocutours 〈…〉 Iudaeis nou a lux â—riri visa est Hesther 8. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM Anno. M. DC XXX The Interlocutours of euery Dialogue 1. In the first Dialogue is disputed whether the Church of Rome hath made any change in fayth and Religion since the first plantation of it by the Apostles It is proued that it hath not The Interlocutours are Cardinall Bellarmyne of worthy memory Michaeas a learned Iewish Rabine Doctour Whitakers of Cambridge Ad Romanos perfidia non potest habere accessum Cyprian lib. 1. epist 3. 2. In the second Dialogue entituled The second part of the Conuerted Iew is discussed whether in euery age since the Apostles or rather whether but in any one Age sinâ—e that tyme till Luthers dayes there can be giuen any Instances of Professours of Protestancy It is proued that no such Instances can be giuen The Interlocutours Michaeas the foresaid Iew. Ochinus who first planted Protestancy in England in King Edward the sixt his raigne Doctour Reynolds of Oxford Neuserus Chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinat Si dixerint vobis Ecce in deserto est nolite exire Ecce in penetratibus nolite credere Math. 24. 3. In the third and last Dialogue styled The arraingnment of the Conuerted Iew. It is discoursed Whether the Protestants of the Catholiks do stand more chargeable with disloyalty to their lawfull Princes It is proued that the Protestants stand more chargeable In this last dialogue are diuers other points of Catholike Religion breifly handled The Interlocutours The right Honourable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England Michaeas the former Iew. M. Vicechancelour of Oxford Vidi mulierem ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum Apocalyp 17. THE ARGVMENT OF THE FIRST DIALOGVE MICHAEAS a learned Iewish Rabine by his diligent comparing of the Prophecies of the Old Testament touching IESVS CHRIST with the exact accomplishment of them recorded in the New Testament forsaketh his former Iudaisme and imbraceth the Christian Religion But in obseruing diuers differences touching faith among Christians and particularly among the Catholiks and Protestants knoweth not to whether side to range himselfe At this tyme it so faleth out that there is a generall meeting of many famous learned Men of all Religions in the greate Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia among whom Cardinall Bellarmyne and Doctour Whitakers are thither comne Michaeas hastneth thither and imparteth to the said Cardinall and Doctour his present state openeth to them his vncertainty whether to embrace the Catholike fayth or Protestancy The Cardinall and the Doctour according to the different Principles of each others religion propound to him different meanes of setling his iudgement in poynts of fayth Michaeas for some peculiar reasons forbeareth both their directions He reduceth the tryall of all to this one head to wit that whereas he fyndeth in the New Testament that the true fayth was once planted by the Apostles in Rome He saith that if it can be proued that this fayth euer altered since the Apostles tymes he will become a Protestant if not he meaneth to be a Roman Catholike Hereupon he earnestly entreateth the Cardinall and the Doctour that they would enter into dispute touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome They both accord to his request and instantly begin a serious graue discourse touching this subiect Cardinall Bellarmyne so presseth Doctour Whitakers with weight of arguments by discouering the weaknes of the Doctours answeres and Obiections as that in the end the Doctour entring into greate intemperance of words against the Church of Rome abruptly breaketh off his discourse and suddenly departeth Michaeas as conuinced with the force of the Cardinals disputation is resolued to become a Roman Catholike and so accordingly receaueth in the end in the Cathedrall Church of Cosmopolis his Baptisme by the hands of the Cardinall by whom also in some short tyme after he is made Priest Thus far concerning the fiction of this first Dialogue TO THE TWO MOST FAYRE SISTERS THE TWO MOST ILLVSTRIOVS VNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDG MOST remarkable and learned Academians in whose due prayses I could willingly here insist were it not that I loath all show of oylye assentation You may be here aduertized touching the ensuing Treatises that I haue made choice to set them downe rather in method of Dialogues then in any other forme of style Because in this ony delicate fastidious age which is quickly cloyed with any thing not accompanyed with Variety it is obserued that interlocutory Periods and vicissitude or alternation of turnes in speech are more gratefull and pleasing then any long wearisome continued and vninterrupted discourse Though the subiect of these Treatises be seuerall mayne points and Controuersies in fayth and consequently Points of Religion and Diuinity yet I presume none of you is eyther so froward or so ignorant as to depraue and calumniate the Methode here vsed by saying that we are not to inuulgar the Mysteryes of sacred Diniuity by way of Poeticall fiction of Dialogues in forging that to be which indeed is not Which aspersion of any such Critick is easily wyped away by the warrantable examples in this kind of S. Ierome Theodoret S. Gregory the Great and others who were not afrayd to treate of the highest matters of fayth in forme of Dialogues Againe such an inconsiderate assertion must needs condemne Poetry in generall seeing Dialogues are a kind of Poetry which how great an errour it were might easily appeare in that Poëtry is masked Philosophy Philosophy Natures true History Nature Gods seruiceable Agent or Handmayd Besids I am of iudgment that the Body of any long Discourse like an vnformed Chäos is best brought into an Orbe of forme and Order by help of interlocutions And lastly admit this kind of Wryting were strange and vnusuall and chiefly sorting to subiects of lesser importance as indeed it is not yet here we must remember that a Phantastike often begins a fashion which graue Men not to be thought Phantasticks are in the end content to follow Now to approach neerer the seuerall subiects handled in all these Dialogues In the first is disputed a Controuersy much agitated and tossed betweene the Catholiks and the Protestants to wit touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome The Interlocutours are Cardinall Bellarmyne that Heresimastix Michaeas a learned Iewish Rabin and Doctour Whitakers of Cambridg The place of this conference I haue made to be the great citty Cosmopolis in Vtopia since an imaginary place best sorteth to an imaginary disputation in respect of the persons feigned The Cardinall iustifyeth the Catholiks position videlicet that no change in fayth and Religion hath bene made in
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
Faith Secondly we will enquire and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued That is how longe Papistry as you commonly tearme it hath bene publikly professed and taught throughout all Christendome Thirdly and lastly we will then take a view of the times betweene these two former seuerall times for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides to wit the time during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles and the time during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward it ineuitably followeth that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times or els that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all Now concerning the first of these times how long in the Protestants iudgements M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine or alteration in any point of moment or Article of beliefe for that only is to be enquired the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS I will confesse in all ingenuity that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated till after the deaths of Optatus Epiphanius and Augustine which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ CARD BELLARMINE You say most truely and I do like your playnesse herein since he is truely politike espetially in matters of Religion which require all candour in theire menaging who is not politicke For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted that Tertullian prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation in these words The argument then drawne from Succession was good because the Church of Rome retained by Succession vntill Tettullians dates that Faith which it did first receaue from the Apostles To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe M. Doctour in your booke writen against me subscribs thus saying from hence we do vnderstaÌ„d why TertulliaÌ„ did appeale to those Churches to wit because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession But to descend further in time touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argumeÌ„t drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus Cyprian Optatus Hierome Vincentius Lyrinensis and Augustine all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome still continued till their daies your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort That these Fathers especially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles With whome accordeth D. lewell saying Aswell Augustine as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome c. for the purity of Religion which was there preserued a loÌ„g time without spot To conclude Caluine himselfe euen in the same manner answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê insisted vpon by Irenaeus Tertullian Origen Augustine Optatus Epiphanius and others for thus Caluine speaketh Cùm extra controuersiam esset nihil à principio vsque ad aetâ—â—tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine froÌ„ the beginning to that very age was changed these holy Fathers did take that which they thought sufficient for the destroying of all new Errours to wit the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent retayned euen from the Apostles dayes till their tymes Thus Caluine To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence out of D. Fulke saying The Popish Church c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe Thus he granting that till S. Augustins death the Church of Rome was the true Church so euident and clere we se it is that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it vntill the times of S. Augustin Epiphanius Optatus c. which was as is aboue sayd foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ Thus farre M. Doctor concerning the durance of the tymes euen by the Protestants frequent confessions that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome Tonching which poynt Irefere you for greater satisfaction to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers to wit of Hierome Ireâ—aeus Augustine Vincentius Lyrâ—neâ—sis Ambrose c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth and consequently was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration Now all this being made thus euident it followeth according to our designed Method that we consider the number of those ages during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards the present Roman Fayth hath by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants do grant that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith so long it followeth by their owne implicit censures and most necessary inferences that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth Therfore M. Doctour I would know of you what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance and antiquity of our present Roman and Catholicke Religion D. WHITAKERS I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth for a thousand yeares at least For first D. Humfry my worthy sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England being sent by Gregory the Great then Pope of Rome who liued in the yeare 590 thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion In Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus Onus ceremoniarum c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church They did bring a burden of Ceremonies They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall for the solemnization of the Masse They did bring in Purgatory c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast and prayer for the dead c. Relicks Transubstantiation c. a new conscecratioÌ„ of Temples c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences Monachisme Papisme and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition all this did Augustine the great Monke being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke bring to the English men Thus farre D. Humfry CARD BELLARM. Well then M. Doctour it clearely appeares by this that
signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
Ministers of the ghospel D. Fulke D. Iewell and M. Henoch Clapham do ioyntly teach the same neither did I euer read any one authentical writer to deny it CARD BELLARM. How long M. Doctour do your writers confesse that the Britons did preserue their Fayth receaued in the Apostles tymes free from all change or mixture of innouatioÌ„s D. VVHITAKERS We do confesse that they preserued it pure and not stayned with any Errours til Augustine his comming into England who was sent by Pope Gregory to plant his religioÌ„ amoÌ„g vs English for first thus I finde D. Iewell to auer The Britons being conuerted by Ioseph of Aramathia held that Fayth at Augustins comming as also D. Fulke saying The Catholick Britans with whom Christian Religion had continued in succession from the Apostles tymes would not receaue Augustine To these we may adioyne the like words of M. Fox The Britons after the receauing of the Fayth neuer forsooke it for any manner of false preaching nor for tormeÌ„ts and finally that acknowledgment of D. Humfrey Habuerunt Britanni templa sibi non Romanis c. The Britons had temples and Churches peculiar to themselues not common with the Romans they not subiecting theÌ„selues to the yoake of the Romans CARD BLLARM Well M. Doctour you deale with integrity and playnes hitherto openly discouering what your reading and iudgement are able to deliâ—er herein And your Prayse in so doing is the greater since there are some men so cautelous in their proceedings and speaches and of such an impenetrable closenes of disposition as that we can neuer knowe their minde by their words the one for the most part standing neutrall to the other or rather the Aspect of a Diametricall Opposition But M. Doctour let me enquire further of you You know that there was an interuiew of meeting betweene this Augustine and the Bishops of Britanny or Walles for the conferring of their Religions together at a place called in S. Bede his time Augustineizat which point is further recorded by your Holinshead M. Fox and diuers others Now here I would intreate you sincerely to set downe the greatest differences of Fayth and Religon which at that meeting were found to be betweene the Briton Bishops and the foresayd Augustine D. WHITAKERS I will and my tongue shall truly subscribe to all that which of this point I haue heretofore read And first S. Bede will fully determine this point who relating how Augustine answered the Briton Bishops setteth his answere downe in thâ—se words Si in tribus his obtemperare mihi vultis vt Pascha suo tempore celebretis vt Ministerium Baptizandi quo Deo renascimur iuxta morem Romanae Apostolicae Ecclesiae compleatis vt Genti Anglorum vnà nobiscum praedicetis verbum Domini cetera quae agitis quamuis moribus nostris contraria eaquanimiter cuncta toller abimus that is If you Briton celebratingâ—aster â—aster day in it due tyme in conferring of Baptisme by the which we are reborne to God according to the Rites of the Roman and Apostolicall Church and in helping vs to preach to the English all other matters which you do though contrary to our manners we wil tollerate and suffer Thus far S. Bede But to what end my Lord Cardinall do you make so many demaunds touching this matter of the Britons Since I cannot see your proiect herein they neither preiudicing vs Protestants nor aduantaginge you Papists CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour you shal quickly discouer the drift of these my seuerall demaunds which resemble a Torrent stopped for a time that it may in the end ouerflow with greater violence Now to your former acknowledgmeÌ„ts we may adde touching only the three former differences the like Confessions of Holinshead M. Goodwin and the ProtestaÌ„t Authour of the History of great Briton whose words are these The Briton Bishops conformed themselues to the Doctrine Ceremonies of the Church of Rome without difference in any thing specially remembred saue only in the celebration of the feast of Easter c. Now M. Doctour in this last place I would haue you cal to minde what is aboue related touching the Fayth planted by Augustine of D. Humfrey the Centurists and Osiander D. Humfrey his words herin though the iteration of them may perhaps seeme vnpleasing I wil once more repeate for greater weight of our ensuing argument who speaking of Augustins Religion planted in England thus writeth In Ecclesiam verè quid inuexerunt Gregorius Augustinus onus Caeremoniarum c. intulerunt Pallium Episcopale ad sola Missarum solemnia Purgatorium c Oblationem salutaris hostiae Preces pro demortuis c. reliquias c. Transubstantiationem c. nouas templorum consecrationes c. Ex quibus omnibus quid aliud quaesitum est quam vt Indulgentiae Monachaâ—us Paptus reliquuÌ„que Pontificiae superstitionis Chaös extruatur Haec autem Augustinus Magnus Monachus a Gregorio Monacho edoctus importauit Anglis Thus D. Humfrey Are not these his owne words And are not the Centurists and Osiander aboue cited most cleare that Augustine at his comming into England preached the present Roman Religion in all chiefe points to you English D. WHITAKERS It cannot be denyed but that all the foresayd Protestants as also all Histories discoursing of this poynt do coÌ„fidently auerre the same Which said Gregory as he brought in some true wholsome poynts of Christian Fayth so did he mingle them with diuers poisonous superstitions worthily to be avoyded by all good Christians Phármaca pollà mén 〈…〉 esthlà memieména pollà de lyerà for it is most cleare that Augustine in this his plantation of Religion in England did greatly labour ' ar ' ' rostia quadam dianoias with an infirmity or sicknes of iudgment CARD BELLARM. Wel M. Doctour touching the venom you spit out against Augustines Religion I holde it but as fome froth of a distempered stomack and therfore I passe it ouer but to returne to my argument Here now I wil be seruiceable vnto you and by the mixture of all these former Ingredients I will present you with a wholsome Electuary compounded of them all for indeede I holde the demonstration issuing out of the premisses so vnauoydable as that it precludeth and forestalleth the aduersary of all shew of Reply First then it is graunted that the Britons were coÌ„uerted to the Fayth of Christ by Ioseph of Aramathia who as he had the honour to interre our Sauiour lay his sacred Body in a new monument cut out of a rock as the Euangelist speaketh so enioyed he the happines to bury al former infidelity in the Britons and to cloath or infolde their afore stony and rocky harts within the cleane Syndon of a pure Fayth in our Sauiour But to proceed Secondly it is confessed that the Britons retayned this their first Fayth spotles and without change till
I gather that Victor out of his elation pride first chalenged that Primacy to him ouer all churches which your Popes at this day still vsurp and retaine This Pope Victor being one of those who couet ' aiem ' aristcucin cai ' yperochòn ' émmenai ' allon to aduance himselfe as the best and cheifest aboue all other Bishops CARD BELLARM. You do much disaduantage your selfe in alleadging this example considering the time wherein Victor liued to wit in the yeare 198. An age during the which your selfe hath hertofore confessed that the church â—f Rome did suffer no alteration in her Religion Now M. Doctour wheras you cast an aspersion of pride vpon this most ancient and reuerend Pope I wish you take heede that you do not incurre the censure passed vpon Diogenes who is said to haue reprooued Plato his pride with greater pride D. WHITAKERS It is certaine that many churches and Fathrs were offended with Victors proceeding therein and particulerly that ancient and pious Father Irenaeus which is an infallible argument of Victors vsurpation For if Victor had true power to excommunicate the churches of Asia as it is graunted he actually had why should Irenaeus and those churches be offended or reprehend him for putting onely in execution his lawfull Authority CARD BELLARM. You must call to minde here M. Doctour the reason why Victor did excommunicate the Churches of Asia which was because the Bishops of Asia were vnwilling to conforme themselues to the Church of Rome in keeping of Easter day to wit to keepe it onely vpon Sunday whereas they would needs continue the keeping of it vpon the 14. of the Moone according to the custome of the Iewes Now for this their reluctation herein against the Church of Christ Victor did excommunicate them But when this seemed as being but a Ceremony and for a time tollerated through the weaknes of the Iewes in the iudgment of diuers too smal an occasion to excommunicate and cut off so many famous Churches therfore Victor was censured by diuers to be ouer seuere in prosecuting with so great a punishment so smal a seeming fault From which their thus censuring of Victor we may rather gather his Primacy aboue other Churches then otherwise and the reason hereof is because we do not finde any of the sayd Bishops to charge Victor with any Innouation in vnduely assuming to himselfe this Authority ouer other Churches which doubtlesly they would haue done if Victor had first taken this priuiledge to himselfe they being so iustly prouoked thereto but they did onely rebuke as is sayd his ouermuch rigid seuerity in punishing as they thought so rigorously so smal a disobedience in the Bishops of Asia Yea which is more that Irenaeus who was most forward in taxinge Victor with his sharp proceeding ascribeth to Victor a soueraignety ouer all Churches For besides that Irenaeâ—s is reprehended by the Centurists for acknow ledging the Primacy of the Roman Sea Eusebius thus writeth of Irenaeus touching this point Irenaeus admonisheth Victor by letters that he would not for the obseruation of a Tradition so long vsed quite cut of so many Churches from the body of the Vniuersall Church Thus Eusebius Now I here demand why should Irenaens dissuade Victor from excoÌ„municating those Churches but that he was persuaded that Victor had power to excommunicate them And thus farre of this instance which may be of force perhaps to prooue that Victor was ouer seuere but not that he had not true power ouer other Churches for which point it is by you M. Doctour vrged But I pray you passe to other instances onely here by the way I will put you in minde that careles and obstinate Christians and such it well may be some of those Asian Christians were haue in some respect small reason to feare the excommunication of the Pope since these men through such their disobediency do commonly excommunicate themselues D. WHITAKERS It is cleare that Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus all Bishops of Rome did chalenge superiority ouer other Bishops by forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell Which proceeding manifesteth the then vsurped Authority of those Popes to be contrary to the institution of Christ Thus these your Popes thirsted after all domination and Power though at other times rhey made shew by styling theÌ„selues Serui Seruorum and by their other affected Humility to contemne all honours and eminency Cur vultis esse in mundo qui extra mundum estis CARD BELLARM. It is most strange to see how inconsiderately you proceed For here you say that these Popes first introduced this innouatios of the Superiority of the Bishop of Rome ouer other Churches and immediatly afore and with all one breath you ascribe the beginning thereof to Victor who liued two hundred yeares before any of these three Popes If these later Popes brought it in then Victor did not If Victor did begin it then those Popes could not See how irreconciliable these your two Assertions are From the actions of all which Popes you can truely gather that they onely practised an Authority which the Church of Rome euer had but not that they assumed any soueraignty to them which poynt is only in q 〈…〉 estion which afore that Church had not D. WHITAKERS M. D. Fulke conspireth with me in alledging the foresaid examples and he was a man well conuersant in Ecclesiasticall Histories his words are these Zozimus Bonifacius Celestinus did challeng prerogatiue ouer the Bishop of Afrik by forging a false CanoÌ„ of the Nicene CouÌ„cel And this Doctours indgmenâ— I much pryze in matters of controuersyes CARD BELLARM. Both D. Fulke his iudgment how learned soeuer you repute him and your owne also must of necessity yeald to the truth herein seing the example of Victor afore infisted vpon by you doth vindicate and free these three later Popes from all innouation in this poynt And as touching the supposed forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell for the erection of the Primacy of Rome It is most false for euen your owne wryters to wit Caluin himselfe and Peter Martir do mention the said Canon as truly made Only they say that the Popes did misalleadge this decree as made by the Councell of Nice which was made by the Councell of Sardis And so their Error admitting that they did erre consisteth only in mistaking by whether Councell the said Canon was decreed D. VVHITAKER What say you of Boniface the third It is certain that this Boniface the third was then the first that intituled the Roman Church to be caput omnium Ecclesiarum the Head of all Churches CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour you weary me by idly diuerberating the ayre with these impertinent Examples and force me to entertayne them with a fastidious neglect For do not the former Examples of Victor Zozimus Bonifacius the first of that name and Celestiuus all more ancient then this Boniface the third take away the weight
Apostles times Therefore I will end with the Instance of the fast of Quatuor Temporum which was first ordained by Pope Calixtus CARD BELLARM. The Vessell M. Doctour from whence you draw these Instances seemes to runne very low and nere the dreggs Seeing for want of examples for change in dogmaticall points of faith you are forced at the last to descend to the Institution of set times of fasts For what is this to the alteration of Faith and Religion in the Church of Rome in any dogmaticall Article which is the point only to be insisted vpon by you Hath not the Church of Christ authority to appoint fasting dayes The Apostles you know did lawfully command all men to forbeare from eating of bloud and of things strangled and may not the Church succeeding them as lawfully command that at certaine times of the yeare and for some few dayes the Christians shall for beare from eating of fleash and vse a more moderate dyet But it seemes you loue not to feede vpon superstitious Popish fish since many of you accoumpt it so Now as touching the antiquity of this fast of Quatuor TemporuÌ„ Where you say it was first ordained by Calixius you grant hereby that it is aboue fourteene hundred yeares since it first institution for Calixtus was the next successour but one to Pope Victor which Victor liued in the yeare of our Lord and Sauiour one hundred and sixty Thus you are more preiudized then aduantaged by prostituting this your sily supposed Innouation I will annex hereto that whereas M. Doctour you do not produce any ancient authour charging Calixtus with the first beginning of this Fast we on the contrary side can alleadge S. Leo ascribing it to proceede from the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost his words are these following Ecclesiastica ieiunia ex doctrina Sancti Spiritus ita per totius anni circulum distribura sunt And thus much touching the Antiquity and lawfulnes of the Past of Quatuor Temporum whereof you see M. Doctour your owne bare assertion excepted no certaine beginning can be knowne since the Apostles dayes But Sir proceede further in other instances if so you can D. WHITAKERS Touching further multiplicity of examples I will not much labour The time is already spent And I hope my former examples notwithstanding your subtill euading of them are able to sway with all such who are truly illuminated with the spirit of the Lord. CARD BELLARM. I beleeue you well You will not labour further therin the true reason being because you cannot For I haue perused your bookes written against Duraeus wherein you cheifly instaÌ„ce touching the chaÌ„ge of the faith of Rome and your other Bookes against Father Campian that blessed Martyr as also your writings against my selfe and I can finde no other instances of this imaginary change insisted by you then these alleadged Yea when the said Father Campian as most confident of no change of Faith in the Church of Rome did most earnestly prouoke you Protestants to name the time and other circumstances accompanying this supposed change in those his vehement and inforcing Interrogations QuaÌ„do hanc fideâ—tant opore celebratum Roma perdidit quardo esse desiâ—t quod antefuit quo tempore quo Pontifice qua via qua vi quibus incrementis Vrbem et Orbem Relgio peruasit aliena quas voces quas turbes quae lamenta progenuit Omnes orbe reliquo sopiti sunt dum Roma Roma inquaÌ„ noua Sacramenta nonum Sacrificium nouum Religionis dogma procuderet You though thus a wakened yet in your answere hereto only dwells in your former example of Pope Siricius aboue refuted touching the single life of Priests in place of further satisfaction you thus reply to the said Father Campian Tuverò si dubitas an desierit meaning whether Rome had changed it Religion potes etiam si vis dubitare ansul meridie splendeat Can any man not blinded with preiudice thinke that if you had any materiall proofes for it change being a point of the greatest consequence that is betweene you and vs but that you being thus extremely importâ—ned would haue particularly iusisted in them and would haue enlarged such your reply with all reading wit learning possible And as for your former Instances they are most impertinent and in themselues most false as is aboue demonstrated they being wâ—res I presume wholy wrought in the shop of your owne braine like the spiders web which is spinned out of her owne Bowels MICHEAS M. Doctonr you must giue me leaue to tell you that your Instances aboue vrged do not much sway my iudgment first because they are not in number past some nine or ten in all of which foure do concerne only the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and two the doctrine of the Reall Presence so as it may be iustly coniectured that you Produced seuerall instances for one doctrine purposely therby to make shew in this your so great a scarcity of greater number of Examples The rest concerne Priests nor marying Purgatory auricular Confession and the fast of Quauor Temporum Which doctrines are few in respect of the many controuerted points as I am enformed betweene the Church of Rome and the Protestants Therfore I must presume that no instances can be but suggested or imagined to be giuen of the change of the Church of Rome touching the doctrines of the Visibility of the Church of Praying to Saints of Free-will Merit of workes Workes of supererogation Indulgences Monachisme Lymbus patruÌ„ Images the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament Communion only vnder one kind Vninersallity of Grace the Necessuy and vertue of the Sacraments Inherent iustice the knowledge of Christ a man His being God of God and diuers others Secondly in that touching your former Instances some of the sayd doctrines are so agreeable to the practise of our Iewish Synagogue and the iudgments of our learned Rabbyes as I haue shewed as that I can hardly repute them as Innouations D. WHITAKERS The vnanimous agreement of the Church of Rome with you Iewes in some of the former doctrines is of smale force seeing you well know Micheas that the Law was to be abrogated at the comming of the Messias MICHEAS It is granted that our Law at the comming of the Sauiour of the world was to be disanulled so far forth as concerne either sacrifices or other Ceremonies which did prefigure the comming of the Messias yet seeing many dogmaticall points of faith beleeued by the Iewes haue no reference to his comming as the foresaid doctrines of Purgatory Confession of sinns c. therfore there can be no reason alleadged why the beleife of them in the time of the Lawe should not be a strong argument for their like beleife now in the time of Grace Wee may add hereto that if euery thing which was taught and commanded by the Law should now be abrogated then the tenne Commandements should in no sort belong to
you Christians And consequently the coÌ„ming of the Messias should be a sufficient warrant for your breach of the said Commandements then which to grant nothing can be excogitated more absurd or more derogating from the honour of Christ But good M. Doctour if you haue any more that can be produced for proofe of change of Faith made by the Church of Rome I would intreate you to perseuer in your discourse D. WHITAKERS Though I should grant some insufficiency and defect in my former instances and that we could not insist at all in any particulars of that nature neuerthelesse we are not endangered therby For we are not bound to answere in what age superstition crept into the Church And to grant more fully herein Of the tymes of this change it is not easi to answere neither is it necessary that the tymes of all such changes be set downe Breifly I auerre It is not needfull in vs to search out in histories the beginning of this change And with me in iudgment herein agree many learned Protestants As for exaÌ„ple to omit others Bucanus thus writeth Non est nostrum designare quo temporis momento caeperit Ecclesia deficere As also M. Powell saying We cannot tell neither by who or at what tyme the Enemy did sow it c. neither indeed do we know who was the first authour of euery one of your blasphemous opinions CARD BELLARM. O Iesus What strange and conscious tergiuersatioÌ„s are these And how mortally do they wouÌ„d your cause ReligioÌ„ wholy discouering your dispaire and diffidence therein For do not these Confessions ouerthrow your former instances If your supposed Examples be true then did you know the times of such a chaunge if you doe not knowe the times of the change as here you confesse you do not why then would you alleadge the foresaid Examples How can you extricate your selfe M. Doctour out of this maze or how can you decline this forked Delemma Furthermore if it cannot be knowne when any change of Fayth was made as here you and your Brethren confesse it cannot why should we beleiue there was made any chaÌ„ge at all He is weake who enthralleth his iudgment to the beleife of any such thing if so he wanteth the necessary and coÌ„ducing CircuÌ„staÌ„ces for the fortifying of such his beleife But belike you will finally say with Ioannes Rhegius a Protestant who not being able to exemplify any change in the Church of Rome arriued to that height of impudency as thus to write Sed denique licet verum esset Romanam Ecclesiam in sua Religione nihil mutasse an propterea mox sequetur eam esse veram Ecclesiam Non opinor Thus this Protestant D. WHITAKERS Not so my Lord Cardinall for I grant a change and the chang of Fayth made in the Church of Rome may well resemble the change in colour which heires do make in being become gray nothing hauing it maturity vpon the sodaine In like sort it may aptly resemble the changes in Edifices houses occasioned by their ruines and decaies We see by experience these changes are true and reall and yet cannot any man set downe punctually the tyme when either the heires are becom gray or the buildings are made ruinous The like may be sayd touching the change of Fayth in the RomaÌ„ Church certaine it is that such a change is already made but when by whom and in what manner it is most vncertaine MICHEAS What M. Doctour do your greatest proofs for the change of ReligioÌ„ finally end in these similitudes If so then I may say I do carry about me my best instructours herein must these gray haires of this my hoary heade and beard my selfe being 60. yeares of age and more and the decayes of this my old body for the same reason there is here of a ruinous body which is of a ruinous house teach me what Religion among you Christians I am to embrace Haue my wearied members taken so great a iourney of so many hundred miles to this place only to take aduise of my beard and my owne feeble limms which sitting at the sire side at home I coulde with farre more ease and with as much certainty haue performed ô the misery of man who lyeth open in matters of greatest waight and importance to the deceit of such rotten foundations they being as weake for proofe of what they are vrged as the things froÌ„ which these resemblaÌ„ces are taken are weake in their owne nature CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I do assure you in all sincerity I do much condole the state of ignorant Lay ProtestaÌ„ts to see how their eyes are sealed vp by the learneder sort of you who in your Pulpits and writings are often accustomed to inueighe in great acerbity of stile and tragicall exclamations against the Church of Rome for hauing altered as you beare your followers in hand her Primitiue Faith But you being pressed to prooue this imaginary change are forced for the warranting thereof to take your last and best proofs from some few gray hayres and slâ—fters in an old rotten wall But because these similitudes and resemblances are most vrged not only by your selfe but also by many other Protestants of Note and haue much swayd with vulgar iudgments not in respect of any force in them but in regard of the eminency of their first Inuentors so the water heateth not because it is water but by reasoÌ„ of it borrowed heate elswhere Therefore I will examine them narrowly and will shew the great disparity betweene them and the change which is at any time made in Religion 1 First then the first smale decay in any building and the first shew of whitenes in haires is imperceptible and not to be discerned wheras euery change in faith though but in one point or article is most markeable and subiect to obseruation 2 Secondly the whitenes of the haires of the head and the ruins of a house do not happen but by degrees and therefore at the first cannot be obserued whereas euery Opinion in doctrine is at the first either true or false and therefore is for such at the first to be appreheÌ„ded by the vnderstanding 3 Thirdly not any haue the charge or care imposed vpon them to obserue the changes in these petty matters but in the Church of Christ there are euer appointed Pastours Doctors whose office is to marke the first beginning of any innouation in doctrine and accordingly to labour to suppresse the same 4 Fourthly these similitudes and deceitfull resemblances being truly vrged do recoyle backe with disaduantage to the Protestants For although we cannot shew when the first haire began to be white or the first slifter in a house begunne to be a slifter yet any notable degrees of the said whitenes in the haires or of the slifters in a house are easily discerned and therefore the Protestants are obliged euen from the nature of these their owne similitudes to tell
and Piety your former assertion in ascribing the Protest an t faith to all that Country cannot be iustifyed For though I grant it is on most sides obsest as I may say with Protestancy yet it is certaine that diuers principall parts thereof are not Protestant but Catholicke in Religion As halfe of Switzerland a part of the Grisons Voltolyne the whole Country of Bauaria the Territories of all the Bishops Electours the kingdome of Bohemia besides many Imperiall Citties and states Againe as other parts thereof do ioyntly and particulerly disclaime from the Roman Religion so though they all do challenge to themselues the name of Protestants yet do they manteine many irreconcileable differences of Religion enen of the greatest importance like seuerall wayes and Tracts meeting in one common place and then instantly deuided one from another This appeareth as I am enformed most cleare and euident from the authority of Hospinian a learned German Protestant who hath diligently set downe the names of many scores of Bookes written in great acerbity of style by one Gerâ—aÌ„ Protestant against another German Protestant according nereto it is that we finde so many kindes of Sectaries and Hereticks in Germany as the Caluinists the Lutherans the Anabaptists the Antitrinitarians and some others though they all be linked and tyed together in the common and maine knot of Protestancy And thus farre M. Doctour of this point where you see I haue smale reason to embrace the Protestant Religion before the Catholicke because that is professed throughout Germany as you pretend this cheifly restrained to Italy Spayne and France But let vs returne backe to the generall subject of this your disoutation with my Lord Cardinall I would intreat you M. Doctour to alleadge some stronger arguments for the change off yeh in the Church of Rome then hitherto you haue giuen which if you do not then what by reason of the weakenes of your said arguments at least in my apprehension and what in respect that I do not see the proofes Produced by my Lord Cardinal to be sufficiently by you refuted I must tell you aforehand I will embrace the Catholicke Roman Religion disauow all Protestancy CARD BLLARM M. Doctour if you can support this your position of Romes change with other more forcing reasons I would intreate you now to insist further in them You see I am prepared to giue my best answere to what you can object If you do not I must presume all your forces are already spent they indeed being but weake reseÌ„bling that of S. Iude Cloudes without water carryed about with windes MICHEAS I pray you M. Doctour forbeare not to grant to this my desire since otherwise I must rest assured that no more can be sayd on your part touching this subject CARD BELLARM. Yeild M. Doctour to this Learned Iewes importunity you know he hath vndertaken a journey of many hundred miles to this Citty onely to be resolued in this one Point therefore both in charity and for the preseruing of your owne honour and reputation you stand obliged to giue all satisfaction vnto him D. WHITAKERS Tush you are both ouer vpbrayding with me and seeing I intend no further dispute with men of so irreâ—ragable dispositions I first for a close say to you Micheas that where you intend to become a Papist your change is this that you leaue that which was ouce good though now bad to embrace that which is euer bad I meane you leaue Iudaisme to entertaine Papisme and thus you become a new Proselyte or rather Neophyte in the schoole of Superstition Idolatry Now as for you Cardinall whose name is so celebrious and so much aduanced in the eares and mouthes a fall men know you that touching the subiect of this our discourse I doubt not but that my arguments reasons and Instances aboue alleadged do in the iudgment of such as the Lord hath illuminated with the truth of the Ghosple sufficiently prooue the great changes made of Fayth and Religion in the Church of Rome since it first receaued it Faith in the Apostles daies And if the truth hereof be hid from any I may then say with the Apostle It is hid from them that perish and are lost Therefore my irreuocable conclusion is this that the Church of Rome was once the true Church and in fayth pure and incontaminate as before I acknowledged but at this present it is The Whore of Babilon a branch cut from the true Vine adenne of theeues the large way leading to destruction the kingdome of Hell the Body of Antichrist a heape or masse of errours a great Mother of whoring the Church of the wicked out of the which it behoucth euery christian to depart and which Christ in the end will miserably destroy inflict due punishments for all it impieties and with this as vnwilling to haue further entercourse or dispute with any that subiect themselues to this prophane Church I end and bid you both farewell CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I much greiue to see you thus transported with passion and to inueigh with such acerbity of words against Christs intemerate spouse but I the more easily pardon you since it is hard vpon the sodame to cast of a habit which hath beene often engrained in diuers tinctures of many operations so spleenfull a â—â—slike you haue against the Church of Rome and indeede it seemes you labour with the disease of those whose spitle being enuenomed make them to thinke that euery thing they take in their mouths doth taste of venome But since it is your minde to breake off so sodainely with vs I recommend you to the tuition of him who in an instant is able to turne the most stony hart into Cor docile and Cor emolitum and my prayers shal be that before the time of your death you may haue the grace to implant your selfe as a branch of that Church the profession of whose faith may be auaileable to the sauing of your soule MICHEAS I am beholden vnto you M. Doctour for your Paines and labour taken in this disputation howbeit I must confesse I did expect to haue heard more said for the proofe of the Church of Rome her change in Religion then as yet is deliuered where I see that your faire promised mountaines in the beginning do but turne to snow and after resolue into water and that by your finall appealing to the written word alone you endeauour to set the best face vpon your ouerthrow in this your dispute bearing your selfe herein like to souldiers who are forced to yeild vp their hould and yet couet to depart with such ceremonies as are not competent to such as yeild Neuerthelesse I commend you to the protection of the God of Israell and will pray that you may after this life enioy the blessings which are already granted to Abraham Isaâ—ck Iacob and their Seede D. VVHITAKERS Well well Once more I bid you both farewell MICHEAS My
Vniuersall much practised by our Aduersaries For according hereto if they can finde any Father or any moderne Catholicke Authour to mantaine though therein contradicted by other Fathers and Catholicks but one or two Points of Protestancy they blush not to auerre that the said Father or Catholicke writer are entire Protestants in all points 9. If your Aduersary should produce some supposed disagreements in doctrine among Catholicks you may reply that their differences rest only in some Circumstances of a Catholicke Conclusion and not in the Conclusion it selfe And if he produce any presumed Catholicke denying the Conclusion it selfe of the doctrine then are you to tell him that such a man ceaseth by this his deniall vnlesse ignorance or inconsideration excuse to be a member of the Catholicke Church therefore this his deniall doth not preiudice the Catholicke Faith this being contrary to the Protestants proceeding who wittingly mantaining contrary conclusions of Faith do remaine neuerthelesse by the iudgments of many of them good brethren and true Professours of the Ghosple 10. If your Aduersary contest that all the writinges and memory of Protestants in former ages were extinguished by the Popes of the said and after succeeding ages you may show how absurd this assertion is And the reason hereof is in that the Popes of those times could not presage that Protestancy should on these our times sway more then any other Heresies condemned in their very times which other Heresies remaine yet registred euen to this day by the acknowledgment of of the Protestants And therefore by the same reason Protestancy supposing it to be professed in those former times should also haue remained recorded either in the writings of the Protestants themselues if euer any such were or else by the censure and condemnation of them by the Popes of those daies 11. Whereas you may alleadge diuers acknowledged Heresies both in the iudgment of Protestant and Catholicke out of the bookes concerning diuers persons who beleeued some few points of Protestancy recorded in the said bookes here I speake of VValdo VVicliff c. Now if here your Aduersary disputant doth auouch as many Protestants do that these Heresies were falsly obtruded vpon the then said Protestants by their Enemies you may here reply that to affirme this is against the force of all reason For seeing the said bookes do indifferently make mention both of the Protestant Opinions and of the other Heresies defended by the same men either the said Bookes are to be beleeued in both or to be reiected in both If the first then it is certaine that those men beleeued those acknowledged Heresies and then they can not be instanced for perfect Protestants If the later then the said Bookes are not of any sufficient authority to prooue that there were any Protestants in those ages 12. There is great disparity betweene Protestants confessing some points which do aduantage the Catholicke faith as for examples that the Primitiue Fathers were Papists in all cheife Articles of Papistry as the Aduersary vse to tearme it and other Protestants impugning the said Confessions Seeing the first men speake against themselues and their Cause which they being learned would neuer do but as conuinced with the euidency of the truth therein whereas these other do deny the Confessions of their owne Brethren in behalfe of their owne Religion and so such their denialls are to be reputed more partiall In like sort there is great difference to be made betweene Protestants speaking against themselues and yet beleeuing the Protestant doctrine and conclusion touching some Circumstances whereof their said Confessions are and betweene some others who afore were Catholickes and after do defend some one point or other of Protestancy Since these later men do not speake against themselues but in defence of such their Protestant doctrine then newly entertained by them and consequently in defence of their owne opinions and therefore such their authorities are not to ballance equally with the Confessions of the former Protestants 13. If your Aduersary doth produce any authorities either from the Popes Decrees or from Generall Councels by the which the Antiquity of some Catholicke Article may be impugned Be carefull 1. That particular Councels or Councels Scismaticall not warranted by the Popes authority be not obtruded vpon you for true Generall Councells 2. That the point vrged out of the Councell doth concerne Doctrine of faith and not matter of fact touching which later point it is granted a Councell may alter it Decrees vpon better and later informations 3. That the Canon or Decree poduced out of the Councell do immediately concerne the doctrine it selfe of some Article of faith then supposed to be brought in and not the name only to be imposed vpon the said doctrine afore beleeued as it happened in the Councell of Lateran touching the word Transubstantiation 4. That the Decree of the Pope or Councell deliuered only touching the better execution of some Catholicke point afore partly neglected as for example touching Confession the vnmarried life of the Cleargy or keeping set times of fasting and the like be not fraudulently extended by your Aduersary to the first institution of the said doctrine he so suggesting a more reformed execution or practise of the Catholicke doctrine for the first institution of it 14. If your Aduersary produce the ancient Fathers in defence of Protestancy first aske him if he will inappealeably stand to their iudgments If he will then vrge the Protestants whose bookes are most plentifull in such like accusations charging them as Patrons of Papistry If he will not stand to their authority then demand to what end he doth alleadg them And further let him know that it is the ioynt consent of Fathers without contradiction of other Orthodoxall Fathers which the Catholicks do admit Where some Protestants obiect that diuers points of the Cathoclike Religion were condemned in some Hereticks by the Orthodoxall Fathers of the Primitiue Church you may truely reply hereto that the Article or conclusion it selfe of any Catholick point was not condemned by them but only some absurd and wicked Circumstance annexed by the said Hereticks to the Article was condemned by the Fathers Thus the Catholicks are charged by D. Fulke and others to borrow the praying to Saints and Angels from certaine old Heretickes condemned by Epiphanius for this doctrine Whereas those Heretickes praied both to good bad Angels to those who were falsly tearmed Angels accoūpting them as Patrons of their wickednes And for these Circumstances only Epiphanius registreth thē for Hereticks This sleight is much practised by diuers Protestāts in certaine points of the Catholicke Religion Therefore be sure to see the words of the Fathers so condemning them in the Fathers owne bookes which if you do you shall discouer wonderfull forgery and deprauation of the said Fathers writings vsed by the Protestants 16. If it be vrged that the deniall of Free-will for example and so of other Articles of Protestancy was taught
treasury or storehouse of the Muses And I must confesse that during my long trauell and perlustration of all Christendome my eyes neuer beheld such two fayre places designed for Nurses of learning as Oxford Cambridge are the very honor and glory of your Nation For where are thete such healthfull and pleasant seates for Vniuersityes both being placed in a Triangle from the chiefe Citty of the realme Such magnificent and stately buildings and Colledges fitting to be pallaces to so many Princes Such opulency of reuenews and rich endowments appropriated vnto them for the education of poore schollers Finally such pious statutes Ordinances and Decrees left by their Founders for the aduancement of vertue and learning All this is not to be matched I assure my selfe throughout the whole Circumference of the earth Only the defect and griefe is that the Vniuersityes their liuings being first instituted giuen by Catholicke Founders and for the propagation of the Catholicke Religion for from them as from two mayne sources and welsprings by the conduits of particuler Mens labors the whole land touching sayth did receiue its watering are now most repugnantly from the first Erectors intention turned to the depressing and ouerthrow of the sayd Catholicke Religion matter to be deliuered in Threnes or Elegyes and Accents of lamentation and complaint And such as the Vniuersityes are so are the students many of them euen by my owne tryall of eleuated wits of transpearcing iudgments most skilfull in the learned tongues fraught with all choysnes of good letters and finally of a candide ingenuity in their comportments D. REYNOLDS Though reports do often multiply and become greater in their owne agitation yet your prayses of our Academies I take for no amplification of speeches but if credit may be giuen to many great trauellers for positiue and measured truths They both are two Sisters linked in the bond of so inuiolable a friendship and association as that they may be well tearmed Oxonium Cantabrigiense and Cantabrigia Oxoniensis Yet the elder of these two is Oxford And since I am a Sonne of her I could haue wished I had met with you before your Conference had with D. Whitakers a Branch of Cambridge and otherwise a Man of great talents and parts For I should haue hoped that as Oxford is the elder Sister so from a member of the elder Sister you should haue receyued greater satisfaction in the light of the Ghospell then both by relation of others and now by your owne ouertures you haue That Oxford is the elder Sister and therein hath her preeminence of her primogeniture we easely prooue for we deduce the first occasion of our Vniuersity though not the plantation euen from the tyme of Brutus who when he came into this Iland was accompanyed with diuers learned Greeke Philosophers who made choise of a place neere to Oxford to seate themselues in as a place most pleasant and fitting for speculation and study After which tymes Alphredus yongest Sonne of Ethelwolpe King of the West-saxons about the yeare of the Incarnation 873. himselfe being after King did translate those scholes of the greeke Philosophers which afore had suffred dishonour and contempt to Oxford And then with Immunityes liuings and buildings he gaue the first foundation to our Vniuersity MICHAEAS M. Doctour I am no Herauld to discusse or proclayme Antiquityes And I know not whether of these two Sisters be more ancient yet in that I will not be vngratefull vnto Cambridge for my late kinde entertaynment I will not conceale what my Memory can truly yeild vnto concerning the Antiquity of Cambridge discoursed off by some of that Vniuersity They sayd that Cantaber who was Sonne of one of the Kings of Spayne coming into England before the Incarnation of our Lord and Sauiour 394. yeares and marying a daughter of Gurguntius King of the Britons gaue first plantation and Name to their Vniuersity and caused it to be frequented with Philosophers and other learned men Now of what credit both your Antiquities are I know not if the one hath the prerogatiue in Antiquity the other enioyeth it in statelinesse of buyldings But howsoeuer these matters be they are both most celebrious and renowned Seminaryes of learning and not drouping Academyes as some are in other Countreyes Seing it is your pleasure M. Doctour thus to entertayne discourse touching these famous places I will acquaint you with two things which since my first seeing of them I haue obserued One is that not only euery Colledge in it library but diuers Studens in ech Colledge haue in their studyes many Catholicke wryters and particulerly the so much much celebrated works of Bellarmyne fayrely bound vp and well stringed But I feare they are there placed rather for a compleate furnishing of their Libraryes then for any great vse of reading them And so the benefit by them is no more then if a patient sending for pills to the Physitian should neuer take them but let them lye in his chamber window D. REYNOLDS It is farre otherwise for all those bookes mentioned are much read by many of vs And Bellarmynes arguments are refuted in our weekly Sermons as occasion is incidently ministred from the Text. And my selfe particulerly haue publikely read in yonder greate Diuinity Schoole that you see as also haue writen against him MICHAEAS I know your selfe are learned withall I know you haue not only writen but also read in confuting of him as a neere acquaintance of myne who was an earewitnesse of your lectures hath tould me But as for others who in their Sermons euen obtorto collo will needes hale Bellarmyne in I am halfe perswaded they do it with the like policy which some men liuing about great Townes and willing to get the reputation of valour are accustomed to do that is they purposely quarell thereby to be spoken of for their courage with some one or other chiefe professed Hacster or Swashbukler D. REYNOLDS O Michaeas Your censure is ouer vncharitable It is the desire of hauing the Truth tryed which prouokes our Deuynes in their Sermons to trace Bellarmyne that so the schollers their Auditours may more easily declyne the obliquity of his pathes MICHAEAS I can not much blame you to set the best glasse vpon your Brethrens actions But this I must say that those Schollers of your Vniuersiryes which are of cleere vnderstandings not forestauled by badly preiudging of Catholicke Religion but aboue all hauing sufficiency of temporall meanes to support their states and not expecting to rise by Ecclesiasticall liuings the most dangerous Bayte of these tymes must in all morall certainty fauour in their priuate iudgment the Catholicke partie if so with diligence they peruse the Cardinalls works and other Catholicke writers But otherwise it is a death when a Man of ripe age and well furnished with learning is brought through want of meanes to say O how must I liue The Roman Religion I see threatneth pouerty disgrace and perhapps the
they may safely adioyne themselues D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants thus saying The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible their profession knowne euen to the prophane and wiched of the world And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible but to the Elect only The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point saying It is true that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing that there is and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church and that not consisting of some few scattered Christians without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion But for great breuity and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene who enthereth into heate and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility For thus he writeth Cur ergo anxiè curiosè probant quod est a nobis numquam negatum Why do they meaning the Catholicks so painfully and curiously proue that which we neuer denyed And then after the said Doctour Non enim clancularij secessus conuocationes sunt Christianae the society of Christians are not secret meetings And then there againe speaking of the Church militant Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima It is a manifest Conclusion that the Church is to be conspicuous and Visible And thus farre Gentlemen of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks the euer Visibility of the Church of God And this in so full a manner as that the wicked as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh shall take full notice and sight of it by force of which cleare testimonies those few and ignorant Protestants who confesse the Church to be Visible but not in so full a maner are preuented of their poore refuge saying The Church is Visible but not at all tymes as if the Church like the Sea enioyed a flux and reflux of it Visibility knowne but knowne only to the Elect and faythfull phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe and mainly crossing not only their owne more learned Brethren but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word and other passages thereof to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers and finally to al force of reason it selfe D. REYNOLDS Wee see Michaeas you are very conuersant in our owne Writers And now I hope this first point is perfected Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine once aduanced Neuerthelesse I trust no learned iudicious Man perusing the former authorities at large will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion and hauing no subsistence or being MICHAEAS M. Doctour you say truly But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you and these two graue men to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine necessarily exacteth such a Visibility I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances which as my thoughts presage wil be hereafter insisteth vpon by you NEVSERVS You do well Michaeas to set downe those premonitions for we desire that if there shal be any defect in the future examples it may be fully displayed Therefore proceed in your Method MICHAEAS The first then of these any maduersions may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation and backwardnesse in some Protestants a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein when this Catholicks presse them to giue instances of Protestancy and of the administration of the word and Sacrements For seing they wil beare men in hand that their Church hath euer continued Visible they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound as mantayning the affirmatiue part to vndertake the proose thereof Now answearably to my former Assertion I finde D Wutton speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary thus to write you wilt say shew vs where the fayth and Religion you professe where held Nay proue you that they were held no where c. And what if it could not beshewed yet we know by the articles of our Creede that there hath bene alwayes a Church in which we say this religion we professe must of necessity be held c. This stands vpon you to disproue which when you do by particular Records you shall haue particular answere Then which what can be spoken first more absurdly as expecting records of things which neuer were in being He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe and his fellowes only stand obliged Secondly what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages The like dispairing Answere D Fulke vseth vpon the same point saying to his Aduersary Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes vah quam iniquum postulas Thou willest me to produce and name those which did lye secret through out the World how iniust a thing dost thou here demand The second Obseruation Seing the Church of God is at al times and seasons without the least discontinuance thereof to be Visibile and to enioy a publike administration of the Word and Sacraments as aboue we al haue proued That therefore such Instances of Protestancy which may be giuen by you hereafter supposing them to be true do but iustify Visibility of your Church only for so long no longer as the said Protestants did liue And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy for al ages since Christ if you do fayle herein but for any one only age it necessarily followeth that Church of the Protestants as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility is not the Church of Christ described in the old Testament and their prophecyed of in so many different places The third and last Obseruation That one may truly and iustly be called a Protestant two things among others must necessatily concurre The one that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy and in the rest being more in number and of greater importance to pertake with the Catholicks seeing such a Man is rather as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion then of Protestancy to be reputed a Catholicke then a Protestant for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him ther otherwise though to speake the truth such a Man so beleeuing is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant is that he doth not hould pertinaciously any
most Blessed Trinity concerning which he thus speaketh The Diuinity is threefould as the three Persons be c. And from hence the reason may well be why Luther expungeth out of the Litany this verse Holy Trinity one very God haue mercy vpon vs. And hereupon he is not afraid to say that the word Trinity is but an humane inuention and soundeth coldly And finally he concludeth that his soule hateth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale For thus he writeth Anima me a odit Homousion Optimè exigerunt Ariani ne vocem illam prophanam nouam regulis fidei statuâ— liceret My very soule haâ—eth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale And the Arians not without reason required that it should not be lawfull to put this prophane and new Word meaning Homousios or consubstantialis among the rules of fayth Luthers blasphemy against the B. Trinity was such and so odious that euen Zwinglius did purposely write against Luther touching this very point 2. Touching the euent of things Luther houldeth contrary to all Christian faith that all things come to passe through a certaine Stoical and Fatal necessity for he defending this Heresy thus writeth Nullius est in manu c. It is in no mans power to thinke good or euil but al things as Wicleffs article condemned at Constance did rightly teach proceed from absolute Necessity And againe fateor articulum c. I do confesse Wicleffs article of all things comming to passe by Necessi 〈◊〉 to haue 〈◊〉 falsly condemned in the conuenticle of Constance 3. To the dishonour of Christ his Passion who was cloathed with Essentiall Maiesty and as intimating the insufficiency of it for the redemption of mankinde he teacheth that Christ not only suffered in body but also his Diuinity suffered for thus he writeth Cùm credo quod sola humana Natura pro me passa est Christus vilis noc magni praetij saluator est c. If I beleiue that only the Humane Nature of Christ suffered for me then is Christ a Sauiour but of a base and small worth and himselfe nedeth a Sauiour And Luther speaking of this point in an other place thus reprehendeth the Zwinglians The Zwinglians did contend against me most pertinaciously that the Diuinity of Christ could not suffer A doctrine so blasphemous as that it was not refuted only by the Zwinglians in Luthers dayes as himselfe confesseth but also euen by Beza such chaynes you see of blasphemies one stil following an other are wouen in Luthers faith and Religion 4. Touching the Administration of the Word and Sacraments Luther teacheth that al men and women also haue authority power to administer them These be his owne words The first office of a Priest is to preach the Word c. But this is common to al Next to baptize and this also al may do euen women c. The third office is to consecrate bread and wine But this also is common to al no lesse then Priests And this I auouch by the authoritie of Christ himselfe saying do this in remembrance of me This Christ speake to al then present and to come afterwards If then that which is greater then al be giuen indifferently to al Men and Women I meane the word and Baptisme then that which is lesse I meane to consecrate the supper is also giuen to them Thus Luther Yea Luther proceeded so farre herein as that as D. Couell witnesseth he was not afraid to affirme that the Sacraments were effectual though administred by Satan himselfe With D. Couell agreeth the Protestant Hospintan thus writing Lutherus â—o vsque progreditur c. Luther proceedeth so farre herein that he maintained the Sacrament to be a true Sacrament â—â—iamsi a Diabolo conficeretur though it were to be consecrated by the Deuil 5. For absolute deniall of tempor all Magistrats an Heresy indifferently condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants we finde Luther thus to write Among Christians no man can or ought to be a Magistrate But euery one is to other equally subiect c. And agayne As Christ cannot suffer himselfe to be tyed bound by lawes c. So also ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them 6. Touching Luthers deniall of certayne parcels of Scripture And first the Epistle of S. Iames is called by Luther Contentious swelling strawy and vnworthy an Apostolicall spirit The booke of the Apocalyps is also reiected by Luther by the acknowledgment of Bullenger thus writing hereof Doctour Martin Luther hah as it were sticked this booke with a sharpe preface set before his first Edition in Duch for which his iudgment good and learned Men were offended with him Hereunto I will adde Luthers contempt of Moyses and some of the Apostles Against Moyses he thus writeth Habuit Moyses labia in faecunda irata c. And againe Moyses habuit labia diffusa felle ira Touching the Apostles he thus controuleth S. Peter S. Peter did liue and teach extra verbum Dei besides the word of God Thus we may see how no wynde was able to weigh downe the eares of Luthers pryde 7. Luther also taught an Heresy whereby the Propagation of Christian Religion is much endangered to wit That it was not lawfall to wage warre against the Turke an errour which enen the greatest Idolatours of Luther haue mainly condemned Luthers words are these Praeliari contra Turcas est repugnare Deo visitanti iniquitates nostras per illos To wage warre against the Turke is to resist God visiting our sinnâ—s by theÌ„ A point so confessed that Erasmus thus writeth of the consequence and effects of Luthers doctrine Many of the Saxons following herein that firct doctrine of Luther denyed to Caesar and King Ferdinand ayde against the Turke c. And said they had rather fight for a Turke not Baptized then for a Turke Baptized meaninge the Emperour Thus Erasmus 8. Touching Fayth and good workes Luther taught an Heresy disallowed by all learned Protestants For Luther teacheth as followeth It is impiety to affirme that fayth without Charity iustifyeth not Nay Luther proceedeth further thus writing Fides nisi sit sine c. Except fayth be without the least good works it doth not iustify nay it is not fayth And thereupon the more to debase good works he thus saith Works take their goodnes of the Worker Aud no worke is disallowed of God vnlesse the authour thereof be disallowed before Here now I end touching Luther Where you may perceaue Neuserus that this your Sunne of which you afore vaunted prooues to be but a fading Comet the fyery zeale you spoake of but a turbulent combustion seâ— on flame by Luther in subiects minds against all Christian Magistracy and the reflux which Luther as you pretend caused in the Church of Rome was instantly attended on with a flux and
say as of the halfeblood to a Protestant so little affinity there is betweene the Protestants Religion and these Mens religion I grant that some Protestants and these but very few and of meane esteeme do instance through their security of better examples in these your mentioned men but how coldy and weakly we will now discouer And first touching the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus I say first that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes Secondly I auer that it was forged by some Heretike that denyed the doctrine of Images perhapps in those dayes but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus This I prooue first because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome and it fayth in generall And therefore the lesse probable it is that he should wrâ—t or suffer to be written in his name any booke inpugning but any one point of that Religion I will relate the words of Hospinian the Protestant touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth Thus be sayth Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts that the Ceremonyes rites the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome should be obserued through out the whole Empyre but also himselfe did force the Churches to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments and other kinds of punishments with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus M. Cowper and Osiander Secondly in that it is acknowledged by learned writers that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those who impugned Images For Paulus Aemilius witnesseth that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians against Images The same doctrine of Images as defended by Carolus is further confessed by the Centurists D. Cowper and by Ioannes Aurelianensis who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus Thirdly and lastly there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian to Carolus Magnus which booke was purposely written against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images a point so euident that Caluin intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke thus saying Eâ—tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine c. There is extant a booke of refutation vnder the name of Carolus Magnus which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke Touching the supposed booke of Beriram written de Corpore Sanguine Domine and dedicated to Charle the Bawld as said to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius in the name of Bertram I say M. D. first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence vsing the words figure spirituall and Mystery with such qualifications as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence yea which is more this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence as that the Centurists do thus censure of it Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation Secondly the Catholicke wryters of those tymes as Hospinian relateth at large did honour Bertram as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church How then is it probable that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles defended beleiued by the said Church Thus far of Bertram Touching Vlricke who was Bishop of Augusta who is vrged for a Protestant in that it is supposed he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage and printed lately at Basill We reply that by force of all Reason this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead or before that Vlrick was borne For as Onuphrius writeth Pope Nicolas the first to whom it is supposed Vlrick should write was elected Pope anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares and two months dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares dyed anno 973. Of which point we may reade Vspergensis Cytraeus Pantaleon D. REYNOLDS But what say you Michaeas touching Burengarius I hope it cannot be denyed but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation MICHAEAS I come to Burengarius who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers who is challenged for a Protestant for his deniall of Transubstantiation in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist I answere first It is true that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation yet afterwards he recanted his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article Secondly I answere that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius did hould diuers errours euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius the Protestant who thus writeth of him Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum coniugium Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants and Marriage And againe Damnata est Berengarij Opinio Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood Also Papir Masson in his Annals of France writeth that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme denyed that men committing mortall sinne could euer obtaine Pardon and further that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes though himselfe before his death according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers recanted his Heresyes But M. D. and you Gentlemen I will conclude this passage with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe suppose therefore for the tyme that these former bookes were doubtfull but truly penned by the Authours vnder whose name they go suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation suppose finally that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes houlding this or that point of Protestancy yet what can all this conuince It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church seeing all these thus admitted are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy still remayning in all other articles wholy Catholicke And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke herein who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram Berergarius and those others reiecteth them in these
sheepfould but clymeth another way is a theife I now demand M. Doctour who did call Luther Hus Wicklefe c. to preach the word and administer the Sacraments Or by whom were they sent D. REYNOLDS I here answere with Caluin Beza and D. Fulke that they had extraordinary calling immediatly from God in reguard of the Popes tiranny in those dayes and the ouerflowing of superstition of those tymes MICHAEAS This is but extrauagantly spoken and merely forged by you Protestants M. D. as hauing no other colour to warrant your calling But to refute this phantasy Extraordinary calling is euer accompanyed as it was in the Apostles with working of miracles euen by the iudgment of the Protestants theÌ„selfe Among whom Luther thus expostulateth others of their extraordinary calling saying Vnde venis quis te 〈…〉 isâ—◠〈…〉 isunt 〈…〉 que is a Deo missum esse testantur See how by Gods prouidence Luthers penne turneth vpon himselfe And therefore D. Bilsâ—n as wholy reiecting all extraordinary Calling not warranted with Miracles thus confesseth They can haue no part of Apostolicall Commission who haue no shew of Apostolicall succession Thus then Luther Huâ— Wicklefe and the rest are exempted from all extraordinary Calling immediatly by God himselfe since their Calling was neuer confirmed with the working of any one miracle euen in the iudgment of D. Fulke whose words are these It is knowne that Caluin and the rest whom Papists call Archhereticks do worke no Miracles D. REYNOLDS Some learned Protestants to wit D. Whitakers D. Bridges and others do auerre that it is not improbable to affirme that Wicklefe Hus Luther c. receaued their calling from the Church of Rome Which calling was conferred vpon them before their departure out of that Church Which opinion of theirs admitting it for true taketh away the supposed difficulty of this your Argument MICHAEAS Neuer M. D. doth the poore and fearefull hayre vse before the hounds more windings and turnings to saue her life then you Protestants do here to salue your Vocation for you being here stabled to get your selfe out of the myre sometymes affirme your calling to be extraordinary and immediate from God warranted by him with certaine Euthusiasms forsooth and illuminations But when the vanity of that pretext is layd open then you fly to the Catholicke Roman Church making it your Sanctuary But see with what an absurdity this your later Answere is accompanyed For besides that Walde as being a Layman neuer receaued any calling from thence Why do you and others most contumeliously call the Roman Church Antichristian seing it seemes you confesse that it is able to conferre true Calling to Luther Hus and the rest and to their successours or descendents which ability and power is peculiar only to the true Church For if the Pope be Antichrist and his Church Antichristian as your Brethren in their pulpitts do vociferate then how can you pretend their Calliâ—g to be sufficient and warrantable seing your owne men teach that in Babylon meaning thereby the Church of Rome there is no holy Order or Ministery indeed but a mere vsurpation And most certaine it is and confessed by all learned Men that Antichrist cannot auaylably confer commission for the Preaching of the Word of Christ and admitting the Sacraments of Christ Now if Luther Hus Wicklefe and the rest do want true calling then they cannot be any true visible Pastours of Christs Church and consequently they cannot iustify in themselfs their Churches visibility So plunged we see you Protestants are when you are demanded to iustify the calling of Luther Hus Wicklefe and their successours And thus far now Learned Men to demonstrate that supposing Waldo Wicklefe Hus Luther and the rest instanced in your precedent passages had bene in all points of beliefe Protestants that they had otherwise neyther comparted with the Catholicks in any Catholicke doctrines nor had defended any grosse and acknowledged Heresyes yet it is most euident in reguard of the Reasons and arguments here alledged that the examples of them are defectiue and insufficient to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church in that manner as the visibility of Christs Church is taught both by Catholicke and Protestant and peculiarly by our selfs according to the beginning of this our disputation OCHINVS With M. Doctour good leaue who hath showed great reeding in his former examples though they be not so conuincing and pregnant as I did hope to find them Neuserus and I will vndertake to iustify the visibility of our Protestant Church in all precedent ages And you are heare Learned Michaeas to know I am of opinion that supposing no instances at all of Protestancy could be giuen for all these former tymes by you mentioned yet followeth it not that therefore there were no Protestants in those tymes which is only the Question betweene vs for many Reasons may be giuen why the names of such Professours are not now knowne to vs of these dayes And one Reason may be this you know well the Popes for many ages haue borne more then a serpentine malice to the Protestant Religion euer endeuouring by all meanes possible to extirpate it out Therefore my iudgment is that their rage and fury was so precipitate and violent agaynst the Protestants of formes ages as they labored by all courses to extinguish all remembrance of them as by burning the books written in those tymes by Protestants by purposely making away of all other Records of Protestancy and by an absolute concealing the names of all Protestants thus hoping that the Memory of them might be interred with their Bodyes This is my opinion I meane that there neuer was an vtter disparition and vanishing away of the Protestant Church in auncient tymes but only that the names and Professours of that Church were most diligently concealed from all after tymes through the Popes affected malignity MICHAEAS It is strange to obserue the exhorbitant proceeding of Protestants in matters of Religion For sometimes you Protestants do diuulge in your wrytings that there can be named Protestants liuing in euery Century since Christ as you M. D. in the frontispice of this discourse with great venâ—itation did vndertake to performe Now you retyre backe Ochiâ—â—s from M. D. assertion and say doubtlesly there were Protestants in all ages though their names and memoryes by some indirect course or other were concealed from Posterity So distracted you are in your owne iudgements passed vpon one and the same point at seuerall tymes Which certainly must be reputed as a Moale in the face of a learned man since now zealously to affect an opinion at another tyme to let the same saulle by entertayning the contrary opinion is but the Ague of an irresolute and inconstant iudgement But to come to the point First I say that this euasion of Ochinus mainly ouerthwarteth M. Dâ—â—tours former Instances For if the names of all Protestants were buried in forgetfulnes by the Popes
who in externall profession of fayth did in any sort dissent from them And you know how aduerse Aduersity is to Mans inclination And therfore the lesse wounder if the rayes of protestancy were in former tymes ouerclowded with the mysts of persecution MICHAEAS Indeed I haue read that Antonius sadellius a protestant of no vulgar note giueth this reason of the latency of his Church and of the want of administration of the word and Sacrament in former ages with whom it seemes you Newserus in iudgment do ioyne But to poyze the weight of this reason Where first I must put you in mind that it being approoued maketh the protestant Church to be wholy inuisible in former tymes and so destroyeth the mayne Thesis or Tenet mantayned by you all in the begining of this disputation who ioyntly did auer that the Protestant Church was in all ages visible the professours of it were knowne and discernable But to let that passe Thus I argue in further disproouall of this your poore refuge The Church of God vnder persecution eyther communicateth openly with the false visible Church in participation of Sacraments and externall profession of Fayth Or els she doth refraine from all such externall communion If she doth not communicate with it then by such her refrayning she is made knowne and consequently is become therevisible If she doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church as you repute the Church of Rome to be then is she not the true Church since the true Church cannot brooke any such dissimulation I will enlarge my selfe vpon the seuerall parts of this Argument And first that the true Church by not communicating with a false Church is in regard of the persecution comming thereby made visible is cleere euen in reason it selfe For who are persecuted but Men that are knowne And how can one lying secretly and vnknowne be sayd to be persecuted A point so euident that M. Curtwright confesseth that the Church vnder persecution is visible and sensible for els sayth he how could it be persecuted Yea he further thus contesteth with his Aduersary saying To let passe both Scriptures and storyes Ecclesiasticall haue you forgotten what is sayd in the first of Exodus that the more the children of Israel were persecuted the more they encreased With whom agreeth M. Iewell saying The Church is placed vpon a mount her persecutions cannot be hid I may truly ad herto that the greater and more violent the persecution is the more visible knowne and conspicuous is the Church made thereby like to a ship which the more it is tossed with waues and storms the higher to the eye it appeareth or like vnto an Arch in building which the greater weight and burden it beares the more strong and firme it remaynes The truth of which point is further warrantable from the example of the persecution in the Primitiue Church which of all pressures of the Church was incomparably the greatest And yet we find that the particular Bishops Confessours Martyrs are euen to this day made knowne who they were and what Heresyes or false Religion they impugned And this from the penns not only of Catholicke Historiographers but euen of Protestants of which subiect you may peruse the Centurists Pantaleon Functius Osiander and M. Fox And may not the English Catholicks if I be truly informed deseruedly here insist in the Examples of their owne Nation The Catholicks whereof in regard of their former persecutions in Queene Elizabeth her reigne are so far from being latent and inuisible as that they were become most famous remarkable throughout all Christendome O pietatem de crudelitate lndentem Are not the names and memoryes of those reuerend Priests and others of the Laity to speake nothing of many worthy Confessours and others suffering great losses and disgraces who lost their liues in her dayes only for Religion whose blessed soules I humbly beseech to interceede and pray for me to our Sauiour Are not their names and memories I say euen to this day fresh and liuing haue their deaths obliterated extinguished their memoryes or rather through a speaking silence perpetuated and eternized them their liues being by this meanes extended beyond their liues Who by reason of their then calamities and pressures too well knowne to God and Man became balls to that state and might iustly complayne in the words of the Apostle Spectaculum facti sumus mundo Angelis Hominibus Such were the stormy flouds innundations and ouerflowings of persecution in the sayd Queenes tyme. But to returne and to apply this here said If the Catholicks in this Country being but a small part of Christendome could not but for some few number of yeares in comparison escape the search and hands of their persecutors but became therby most visible and knowne the very Ayre ecchoing forth their miseryes How could then the Protestants being supposed to be dispersed throughout many Nations lye hid and auoid for so many ages together as is pretended the force of that persecution which is affirmed by our Aduersaryes to haue bene far more greiuous then euer this of England was NEVSERVS I pray you Michaeas descend to the second part of your former Argument And first tell me your iudgment if it be not lawfull for auoyding of losse of goods or death it selfe sometymes to conceale our Religion MICHAEAS No we neuer ought to conceale our profession of fayth for feare of any punishment how great soeuer for here nolle confiteri negare est And though we are not to importune persecution for this were to tempt God or to take a spirituall pride in our afflictions for our Profession of fayth yet if the temporall Prince do impose any miseryes vpon vs our Religion we are with all alacrity Christian magnanimity patiently to endure the same euer continuing in our former Religion loyalty and obedience and powring cut our daily prayers to the Almighty that he would vouchsafe to touch the sayd Princes hart with commiseration of our despicable and betrampled estates and to grant him all true temporall and eternall happines our selfs in the meane tyme euer remayning confortable Quid hic mali est cuius reus gaudet cuius accusatio votum est paena faelicitas But I will come to the second branch which contayneth the reason of this my Assertion Which was That if the Church of Christ doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church she ceaseth ipso facto to be the true Church of God This is most euident out of Gods sacred Writ which teacheth vs. that with the hart a man beleiueth vnto Iustice and with the mouth confesseth vnto saluation Which text is truly paraphrazed by D. Field in these words Seing the Church is the multitude of them that shal be saued And no man can be saued vnlesse he make Confession â—nto saluation for fayth hid and concealed in the hart
should become accessory to our owne hurt to suffer such a man to passe vn punished Therefore I hope your Lordship will not preserue him whoÌ„ the Law hath ouerthrowne nor suffer his present calamity how great soeuer it may seeme to attract from your cleere iudgment commiseration pitty But rather you will vouchsafe to remember that he doubteth his crime who masketh it vnder the tecture of Religion This is that Michaeas homo pestiferus concitans seditionem who after his disputation in our Vniuersity with the most learned D. Reynolds made show presently to leaue our vniuersity and to retire himselfe into some forayne Countrey But many months haue since that time passed He during all the whyle secretly lourking among vs so the Spidar lyes close to surprise the incautelous flee seeketh to get priuate acquaintance with diuers eminent Maisters of Arts and others of the yonger sort Which being obtayned he then enuenometh their iudgments with Superstition and Idolatry and with his other Romish positions breathing disobedience disloyalty against the Magistrate And indeed he hath such a facility by slye and subtill insinuations to serue himselfe within the Schollars affections as that it is most wounderfull For first he commonly beginneth a farre off to talke with them of the nature of other Countreyes and of his owne trauells in other vniuersityes to which discourses our Schollars do lend their greedy eares before euer he entreth to talke of Religion And so like a good tabler he vsually playeth with them an aftergame the more speedily to come to his designed end The hurt which he hath already perpetrated in our vniuersity which is one of the two eyes of the whole Realme is great and insufferable and your Lordship well knowes that if the eye be wicked then all the Body shal be darke Therefore now at the lenght hauing apprehended him I haue conuerted him before your Lordship that so he may be punished by the Law who hath transgressed the Law LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Stand forth Michaeas Many and greiuous you see are the complaints giuen vp agaynst you from which you must either truly vindicate your selfe by being faultles therein or otherwise you must vndergoe the chastisment appointed for such offences And though we Iudges be ordayned to punish what is euill yet we are to wish that men do not prooue themselues euill And therefore I desire that your Innocency if innocent you be may be here cleared for I hould it a farre greater ouersight to punish the guiltles then to leaue vnpunished the guilty Since Iustice instructeth vs not to delight in punishment but to recurre to it for playne necessity Now speake Michaeas what you can in your owne defence MICHAEAS My Lord. I do heare first prostrate myselfe in all Humility before your Honour resting glad that though my accuser haue wronged me by thus falsly traducing me before your L. yet that it is my fortune to appeare before such a Iudge with whom Innocency shall find it sanctuary and only true faults be corrected for I presume that that sentence of the Psalmist is euen imprinted and sealed vp in your hart Rectè iudicate filij hominum Now for my more iust defense your L. may heare be aduertized that I am a Iew by byrth and Nation and a Roman by Religion and do hould that Ierusalem I meane the Church of Rome which is vpon earth the spirituall Ierusalem is the place where Men ought to worship I came into this florishing Kingdome only through my greate desire of seeing your famous and so much celebrated Vniuersityes with intention of returne in a conuenient tyme. Now I trust my L. I speake it vnder correction of your more experienced Iudgment that I as being a stranger and not borne within these dominions do not stand precisly subiect to the lawes of the said dominions And therefore what I haue committed suppose most to be true as most of it is false may well be an errour in me but any heinous cryme as now it is exagitated it cannot be And further euery Man well knowes that euen by the lawe of Nations the very name of a stranger who in this respect cannot take particular notise of the Municipall statuts and Ordinances of the Realme doth pleade excuse for many Transgressions the committers whereof being borne subiects are seuerely and deseruedly punished Therefore my L. since Lawes are made rather to succour then to wound Mankynd I dowbt not but your L. will heare dispence with all sterne seuerity and will remember that saying of an auncient Father Facilius Ira quam Indulgentia obliqua est VICE CHANCELOVR See you not my L. how this Polypragmon this Michaeas dare not only without feare violate the lawes of our Realme but also will needs braue it before your Lorship that for being a stranger and not borne in our Nation he stands not subiect to the said Lawes and thereupon doth iustify his impietyes but it seemes he gloryes to be extremly facinorous Est mali dignitas quod in summo pessimorum collocetur L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas Your Plea heare is most weake and defectiue for though you be a stranger and as you say not borne vnder the lawes of our Dominions yet you must know that you had leasure enoughe to be acquainted with our Lawes before you entred into our Country or at lest within short tyme after And you must conceaue that the Lawes being made by the consent of the whole Realme are not to be violated in fauour of any one Man Furthermore where you speake of Priuiledges and Indulgences allowed to strangers euen by all Nationall Lawes you must â—â—ke notize that these fauours are imparted to strangers with some conditions and restrictions to wit if the bad compâ—rtment and cariadge of the said strangers do not worthely 〈◊〉 them of participating of the said Priuiledges since otherwise no reason there is why they should be partakers of them And indeed the lesse reason because in tyme of Necessity when the Prince is to command aydes forces or Tributs from his subiects no such releife and helps can be expected at the hands of any strangers resyding in his Country Lastly it were repugnant to the nature of Iustice which in it selfe is euer sacred and inuiolable that a stranger such an one as you Michaeas are by comming into a forrayne Country and as it were by indeuizing hymselfe for the tyme should become a subiect in the fruition of the benefits of the said Country And yet when he would performe any vnlawfull act he should of new create himselfe a stranger Therefore Michaeas my iudgment here is that you stand obnoxions and subiect to our lawes And therefore you must either plead yourselfe innocent in the obiected Crymes or els the Lawes of our Realme will iustly take hould of you What say you therefore to the offences wherewith you heere stand charged MICHAEAS Well my good Lord since it is so I humbly submit myselfe
they vsed speakind of Knox and his Confederats that poore Lady my Mother is not vnknowne and with greife I may remember it Touching Geâ—enna Goneuâ— I would say but the mistaking is not great since what the one teacheth the other punisheth We find that D. 〈…〉 lâ—ste thus truly writeth They of eneua did depose their Liegt Lord who was Catholicke Prince from his temporall right albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lord and owner of that Citty and Territorie Which whom conspireth D. Bancroft thus wryting hereof The Citizens of Geneua receauing some good encour agement meaning from Caluin and such others I doubt not tooke vpon them the endeauouring of altering Religion and omitted not the occasion offered of changing also the Estate of the Commonwealth In this next place the 〈…〉 ow Countryes affoard a greater euidency and demonstration of this point For Oâ—iander a most eminent Protestant thus woundeth his owne Professours The Low Countreyes by publike wryting renounced all obedience and subiection to Philip their Lord and King c. When foure hundred of them men of good ranke had sued for tolleration in religion and did not preuayle the impatient People stirred vp with fury at Antwerp and other places of Holland Zâ—land and Pladders threw and broake downe images c. The y subiects of those Countreyes tooke armes against the Magistrate and made the Prince of Orange their Gouernour A truth in like sort confessed by D. Sarauia in these words They of the Low Countryes did ouerthrow and spoyle temples and monasteryes with Monks Bishops and the whole popish Cleargy against the mind of the cheife Magistrate and promâ—se giuen Finally Crispinus the Protestant and the foresaid Osiander do relate that one Petrus Dathenus and other cheife Protestants of Gauâ—t did stir vp in the yere 1587. the Ciâ—tizens to cast all the Masse Priests as they speake and Monks out of the Citty and to place their goods in the Treasury Next let vs come to France What ciuill Warrs haue beene raized by the Protestants during the space of forty yeares togeather till the last King Henry the fourth made himselfe Catholicke only for their Religion against their Catholicke Kings and Princes Many historyes are become the subiect thereof only I will content my selfe with discerning some few testimonyes and confessions of the Protestants heerein And first may occuâ—re the battayle of Dreux wherat Beza himselfe was present vndertaken only for the aduancement of the Protestant Religion and of which Battayle Beza thus writeth The Nobility of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy layd the foundation of the restoring true Religion in France by consecrating most happily their bloud to God in the battayle of Dreux In like sort we thus reede in a Protestant booke entituled The generall Inuentory of the History of France and translated into English by Ed. Grimston The Protestants of Meaux transported with indiscreete zeale grounded vpon their numbers did fly to the Churches beate downe images and make the Priests retyre And againe Beza preaching at Grenoble Charters and Orleans with his sword and pistoll in his hand exhorted the people to show their manhood rather in killing the Papists then in breaking Images And yet more The Protestants to wit anno 1567. being first armed were in the beginning maysters of the field c. The King being incensed agaynst them was at Meâ—ux and preparing to celebrate the feast of S. Michael the Prince of Condy approaching with fiue hundred horse by this attempt forced the King to retyre with some amazement to Paris And yet further The Prince of Condy and the Admirall kept S. Denis S. Owen and Auberuilliers to curbe Paris The Constable the Kings Lieutenant gathered an Army whereupon bartayle eâ—sued c. Which Authour of the aforementioned Inuentory of France relateth many more occurrents of those matters which here for breuity are omitted But to proceede further touching the Country of France Osiander the foresaid Protestant recordeth this matter in these words The Protestants vnder colour of exhibiting a Confession of their fayth came armed to the Kings palace c. That ciuill warre for Religion was renewed the Prince of Condy being Generall of those of the reformed Churches and the Constable Generall of the Kings Army That the Constable being slayne in these warres the Kings Brother supplyed his place To conclude this point of the Prince of Condy his rebellion herein It is so euident vndeniable that Crispinus a Protestant thus writeth hereof After many messages though in vayne sent by the King to the protestant Princes the warre beganne againe For the Prince of Condy rose vp in armes and swore not to leaue them vnder whose protestation this sentence was placed Deo victricibus armis This lamentable subiect of Protestant Subiects rysing against their Catholicke Princes hath busied my tongue very long Therefore I passe ouer how in Basil a cheife Citty in Heluetia a great dissention did ryse betweene the Burgâ—sses certaine of the Senatours for cause of Religion only as Crispinus relateth And how the Burgesses hauing taken armes forced the others to agree to what they demanded and thereupon they did cast downe Images and how twelue Senatours fauoring our Catholicke Religion were cast out of the Senate and how the Masse was first by these meanes abandoned throughout all that Sâ—gnory Also I pretermit the dolefull passages of this nature practized in Sweâ—eland of which Country Cythreus a Protestant thus relateth Sigismond being King of Sweueland by hereditary succession was constrayned to giue his assent that none should beare office in that Kingdome but such only meaning Protestants as retayned the Confession of Augusta He further saith thus They forced the King to content himselfe with exercise of his Catholicke Religion in his owne Chappell A truth so well knowne confessed that Osiander thus speaketh of it in generall tearmes The Protestants of Sweueland did decree that the exercise of Popish Religion should be banished out of all parts of that Kingdome c. Finally I passe ouer with a gentill â—uche what the Kingdome of Palonia hath suffered in this kynd of which poynt the foresaide Protestant Osiander thus writeth Certaine of Polonia did out of an vntymely zeale expell their Priests with great violence and sedition without expecting permission as the said Authour confesseth of the Kinge Thus far most worthy Iudge I haue proceeded contrary to the byas of myne owne naturall disposition in relation of these lamentable I lyads as I may tearme them but I am to be pardoned since the vpbrading importunity of M. Vice-Chancelour did compell me thearto from which former Examples we may gather that for diuers yeres past most Nations of Christendome haue become the sable and mournfulle Theaters or stages whereupon so many blouddy Tragedyes haue bene acted or rather the very shambles whearein haue bene
shaughtered so many thousand Christians and all this warranted vnder the pretext of introducing the Protestant fayth and Religion And for the more iustifying of theese so wicked perpetrations we find diuers most eminent Protestants euen with greate laudes and applauses to celebrate these their attempts To forbeare the Encomion aboue recited giuen by Beza to the Protestant Nobility of Franâ—e who were slayne at the batayle of Dreuz do we not find when euen an inundation of bloud shed through the insurrection and Rebellion of Protestants had ouerflowed most parts of Germany that Luther thus honoreth in words the same Vide or mihi videre Germaniam in sanguine natare c. Christus meus viuit regnat ego vino regnabo It sermes that Germany euen swims with bloud But Christ liueth and reigneth and I will lyue and reigne As also he thus further triumphet heareof Thou complainest that by the Gospell the world is become tumultuous I a sweare God he thanked These things I would haue to bee and woe me miserable Man if such things were not In lyke sort doth not Caluin magnify the former seditions attempts of knox in this maner Knox valiantly bestoweth his labour vpon Christ and his Church O poore weake blast of wynd since iniust praise is no better thus idly spent in commending that which deserueth all discommendation and reproach for I much feare that these Men thus extolled for such their rebellions combustions and assacinacyes are interested in that sentence of Sainct Austin La 〈…〉 vbi non sunt torquentur vbi sunt VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas You haue heare entred into a wyde and wyld excursion of Discourses But I hould them not altogether pertinenm since all your former Instances were vndertaken for depression of superstition and aduancement of the Gospell of Christ The weight whereof is to ouerballance all humane respects And how far a Man may proceede hearein I will not determyne Only I hope I may without offence say that in matters so meâ—rely touching the endangering of our Gospell and for the better beating downe of Antichrist it is a kynd of Passion to be insensible and voyde of Passion But you should Michaeas haue brought some examples of Protestants disloyalty and want of duty against their Protestant Prince if so you had thought to haue wounded our cause indeed But since you haue not nor cannot insist in any such your former Instances wee repute supposing them to be true for lesse materiall and conuincing MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour If it did comport with my present afflicted state or with my due reuerence to this Seate of Iustice I could well smyle to see how you still giue ground more and more in euery of your answeares against our former authorities and examples for whereas the mayne Question heare is Whether the Protestant Religion doth teach any disloyalty to the Prince of what Christian Religion so euer he be And whether the Professours of Protestancy do truly stand chargeable with such their Disloyalty for matter of Religion you now haue heare vsed diuers inflexions and turnings to wynd your selfe out of this Labyrinth For first when Luther and Swinglins were produced out of their owne wrytings to that end You answeare that indeede they were iustly charged thearewith but neuertheles the tymes after them being more refined and purged from all errours were most free from all such imputations When to impugne this reply I did vrge that Caluin Beza Knox Bucanan and diuers others of these dayes did in their book wrytings most confidently defend the same doctrine of Rebellion and disloyalty for defence of Religion Your next sleight was crossing your former answeared to say that though theese later Men did teach the sayd doctryne Yet seing this was but only the speculation of some Protestant Schollars but neuer put in practize by any of them or their followers that therefore their errour was herein the lesse dangerous and more pardonable When to confront this your silly euasion some of the said particuler Protestant wryters and many thousands of other Protestants are vrged by their open rebellions and insurrections actually to haue practized the said speculatiue doctryne of disloyalty You then lastly replyed that all this was vndertaken by them for the defence of the Ghospell and depressing of superstition and Idolatry Which you say may perhaps desearue hearein a myld censure And further you affirme that you hould the Protestants lesse chargeable with any iust fault hearein because they are euer loyall to their Protestant Princes for any attempts touching religion though not euer loyall to their Princes of a different religion from them But how rouing and wandring are all these Replyes from the Question heare ventilated Which was Whether Protestants did teach or put in practize Rebellion and insurrection against their lawfull Princes of what Christian Religion soeuer they were But M. Vice-Chancelour I do heare pardon you For either you must haue openly confessed in the first entrance of this passage that the Protestants do stand obnoxious for teaching and practizing of disloyalty c. Against their true Kings and soueraigns which perhaps you were loath to doe Or otherwyse as being depriued of all better Yf any learned Protestant thinke I do wrong his party by feigningly imposing these euasions vpon the Vice-Chancelour then let that Man set downe such his other owne replyes as he may thinke more satisfying to all the former obiected authorityes and examples and he shal be answeared For I cannot presage what heare could by sayd by any ProtestaÌ„t but either to vse these sleights or otherwyse plainly at the first acknowledge the Protestants doctrine hearein Answeares you must haue bene forced thereby to wine a little tyme to haue vsed your former declynings and subterfugious tergiaersations But belyke you did at the first call to mind that the least degree of weaknes in a Cause wheare nothing but weaknes is is to be reputed as a kynd of strenght and that little sconces are fore the present good fortresses when Castells Rompyers and such other strong forts are Wanting But M. Vice-Ch To trace you in the steps of your last refuge I do heare auonch that Protestants euen to their ProtestaÌ„t Princes only for matter of Religion contrary to this your last assertion haue manifested great disloyalty Thus is your Gospel set against your Gospell I will not say with Esay the Aegiptians against the Aegiptians And here I passe ouer for greater breuity the examples of this Kynd acted in Scotland and Germany euen by Protestants against their Protestant Princes and will a whyle rest in the ouertures and intendments at least heare in England And according heareto we fynd D. Bancroft thus to wryte of the proceeding of the PuritaÌ„s against their Protestant Bishops The Puritans meete and co ferre concerning the proceedings of the Ministers without assistance or staying for the Magistrate And further talking of Penry and other Puritans he thus accuseth
Thomas and Dominicus a Soto fully dispute Now heare we are to conceaue that as the bloud of Christ doth clense vs from all sinne if so it be applied to vse by the Sacraments of Baptisme and PeÌ„nance so these Consecrated things and our Lords prayer do apply his bloud for the taking away of veniall sinne from hym who is in state of grace The third end is to dryue away wicked spirits and to cure diseases as appeareth from the prayers by which they are consecrated Neuer the lesse we are heaâ—e to know that these consecrated things do not any worke theese effects as the Sacraments wheare no let is do infallibly work their effects And the reason heare of is because these consecrated things haue not their force from any expresse couenant made by God as the acraments haue but from the Prayers of the Church and denotion of the parties vsing them Besides sometymes it is not conuenient that we should be freed from sicknes or diseases or from the molestation of the Deuills And according hearto we find that the Apostles did vse to annoynt the sicke with oyle and they were cured In like sort Epiphanius relateth how Ioseph by holy water did dissolue incaâ—tation and Magicke And Theodoret recordeth the same of Marcellus Apameensis and Palladius of Macharius Againe S. Ierome testifyeth that S. Hilarion did cure diuers diseased Persons with holy bread and holy oyle The like did S. Bernard S. Gregory witnesseth that one S. Fortunatus did cure one of a brokeÌ„ thigh only by sprinkling holy water vpon it and his owne prayers Finally S. Bernard affirmeth that S. Malachius did cure one that was phâ—anticke by the meanes of Holy Water Now these Examples do show that it is not Negro 〈…〉 cy as the Protestants sometymes do tearme it to seeke to produce with the help of prayers supernaturall effect by applying of holy water or holy oyle That the Church of God hath authority to blesse Creaturs for the former ends and for the furtherance of Denotien is prooued from her greater authority practized in changing the Saboath day from Saturday to Sunday And now it being thus changed is 〈…〉 erable Which point by the confession of learned Protestants was wrought by the sole authority of the Church and is not warranted by any text or passage of Scripture Now thus farre of all these former poynts And heere I am to end aduertizing the Protestant Reader that what is heere set downe contaynes for greater breuity but short discourses of the said controuersyes heere handled and assuring him that scarse the fift part of the prooff and authorities drawne from Gods holy Word from the testimonyes of the Fathers from the practise of Gods Church and from the confession euen of our Aduersaryes are heere alledged which might be produced in warrant of the said Catholicks doctrines And therfore I referre the Reader these be 〈…〉 uen but for some delibation and tast aforehand for his greater satisfaction to the many learned Catholicke Treatiâ—es written vpon the said subiects L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas What do you reply hereto Are these discourses of your owne framing Againe If they be how can you then free your selfe from that infinite Wrong which you being a stranger offer to our state in seeking thus by supplanting the Ghospell to plant your owne false Religion And lastly what were the Motyues inducing you rather to diuulge these particuler doctrines then diuers others of greater weight and consequence which are still in Question betweene you and vs Belike there was some reason or this your election choyce MICHAEAS My very good Lord. I will answere you to all your demands And herein my Tongue shal be a true Interpreter of my Hart. First concerning the Authour I do heere freely grant I was the Man who penned them who taugh them and who through Gods grace and assistance wil be ready to seale the truth of them if need should so requyre with my bloud Concerning the choyce made of these Controuersyes among many others of as great or greater importance now ventilated betweene the Catholicks and the Protestants Your Lordship may be aduertized that the true reason was because I do find by experience that the common and ignorant Protestant of meaner conceate and whose vnderstanding is vsually immersed in sense seemeth to take more exception at these Catholicke doctrines then at others heere not discoursed off The cause hereof I take to be in that most of these consist in practize and consequently are dayly subiect to the outward sense Whereas those other for the cheife part do lye inspeculation thereby are further remooued from the apprehension of the vnlgar whose vnderstandings herein are commonly like to boysterous Instruments vnportionable and insutable to worke vpon any fine and curions matter For I grant that though they were principally written for fome students of the vniuersity of good talents yet secondarily my intention was the instructing of the vnlearned Protestant in the said Catholicke doctrines That they are heere handled so breifly is in regard of the multiplicity of the Questions each of which if it were at large disputed off would requyre no small Treatise And therefore I haue rather vndertaken to set downe besides some few prooffs of them the true state of euery such Catholicke poynt so to vindicate is from the foule mistaking of the Aduersary then in the fullest manner by authorities to confirme fortify them LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE Well touching these two former poynts you haue answered and in part sat sâ—yed me But what say you to the iniury by you wrought not only against the vniuersity but euen against the whole state Which cannot by our owne statâ—ts and Decrees brooke such tumultuous proceedings in any Man much lesse in forayners as to labour to disioynt the beautifull 〈◊〉 me of that Religion which the whole Realme for these many yeares hath so peaceably enioyed MICHAEAS Most Reuerend ludge Giue me leaue without offence to vse the words only al 〈…〉 uely not comparatiuely of that great Apostle who like my selfe was once a Iew but after a Christian Neither against the Law nor against the temple of God nor against Caeser haue I any thing offended It is true And this I confesse with comfort for discomfort is the ordinary attendant of a faulty guiltines that I much labored and to that end cheifly penned these short Discourses to dissem 〈…〉 ate the true faith of these points in the minds of the Schollars of my acquaintance And why might I not Since the valew of an a 〈…〉 yleable fayth is so great as that without it no man with it all men may stand gratefull in Gods eye Sine fide impossibile est placere Deo Consider my L. the price but of one Soule which our Sauiour hath ransomed out of the Deuills hands with so high a reate humiliauit semetipsum factus obediens vsque ad mortem mortem
autem crucis And then thinke what greife it were that this Soule through want of true fayth should returne to it former thraldome Alas my L. Is 〈…〉 not greate pitye to see diuers yong students of eleuated Witts and apprehencsions either to receaue their Religion which they beleiue to be true from the bare affiance and trust of their Readers and Maysters without any further examining or tryall of it Or els litle to pryze any Religion at all And thus in this later maner this poore Materia Prima being Formlâ—sse is ready indifferently and without choyce to entertayne the impression of any Religion Now is it not great pitye I say to suffer these Soules to perish eternally as not hauing an articulate perfect Christian fayth Which fayth ought so to be qualified seing it auayleth litle to beleiue in Christ except we beleiue truly in Christ For though fayth be heare to be requyred yet a false fayth is as preiudicial as a meare Misbeleiffe So light is more necessary to the eye then darknes yet not being well proportioned is more dangerous to the eye then darknes And indeed my L. I must confesse that I do more fully glasse their danger in my owne former want of fayth when I continued a lew And am in this respect more ready to imparte the benefit of that to others of which my selfe haue allready so fully tasted Now for this my attempt my selfe being an Alien I must shrowd it vnder the wings of the lyke atteÌ„mpts of S. Peter and other the Apostles who were not afrayd to go by our Lords commandement into strange Countreyes to preach teach the faith of Christ Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni Creaturae And my good Lord I must therefore further say that though a Zeraphicall and burning zeale in this kind may in an humane eye seeme to be but a kind of madnes And that high Vertues of this Nature through want of due consideration do rather offend then please yet since the Apostles did first tract this vnusuall path their example hath more emboldned me to tread herein their stepps VICE-CHANCELOVR Good God See vnto what an assent of impiety Mans nature is arryued I meane heere not only to do euill but to make the Holy Apostles patrons of the said euill No Michaeas As soone may the Idoll Dagon stand by the Arke as your pernitious Machinations beare affinity with the actions of the Apostles You preach not Christ but Antichrist and you must remember that Christ himselfe said Who gathereth not with me scatereth MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour I see you much labour to haue the aduantage of the day against mee so willing you are that I should lye prostrate with the basest shame Yet my comfort is that Innocency though oppressed still continues Innocency But to come to the poynt What haue I donne which the glorious Apostles may not seeme to haue donne They went into forayne Countryes without any peculiar licence of the Princes of them to preach the Gospell of Christ I heare being a stranger haue aduentured to initiate some students in the fayth of Rome which is the sole true fayth of Christ They preached peaceably without raising of tumults or teaching disobedience against the Prince of the Country I did yet neuer intimate in my words or actions the least spote of disobedience against the supreme Magistrate since I hould it a mighty errour to seeke â—o order things by disorderly courses They most happely pulled thousands of Soules out of the iawes of the Deuil I do confesse my sole end was to do some good in that kynd if so God would vouchsafe to blesse therein my endeuours And most ioyfull I should be if through my owne labour vnder Christ I might say but of any one straying Soule with the good Father in the Gospell This my sonne was dead but is reuyued was lost and is found Breifly theâ— for such their accheiuements finished their dayes in most blâ—ssed Martyrdomes O that might be so happy as to â—edeâ—me â—y maninfold 〈◊〉 with so glorious a death so true is that sentence The bloud of Martirs is the key of Paradise Heere now my good L. Yf you condemne me how can you free them Therefore either absolue me with them or accuse them with me Since all of vs be either guilty or all Innocent Yf guilty I glorye to haue such Precedents of this my imaginary Cryme Yf innocent Why then do I stand at this wofull barre of Iustice pleading if not for lyfe at least for Liberty LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Although these your molitions and endeauours Michâ—as may seeme to proceede from a feruour and zeale Yet I feare this your zeale is branded with those words of S. Paul Aemulationem Dei habent sed non secundum scientiam Since diuers Men haue certaine impetuosityes and violent straynes of Nature which because in their owne priuate conceats they meane well they feare not to guild ouer with the fayre title of Christian zeale Againe Michâ—as wheare you seeke to sheyld your attempts vnder the example of the Apostles your mistaking heare is ouer grosse since they preached the incontaminated and vnspoted fayth of Christ and weare therefore not only excusable but euen warranted by the Holy Ghost Whereas you do teach a religion mixted with diuers errours and humane Inuentions and therefore farre different from that first planted by the Apostles MICHAEAS My Lord. What colours soeuer of disgrace and contumely may in an other Mans eye be layed vpon theese my actions yet to my selfe I am best priuy that they proceeded from my sole desire of aduancing the fayth of Christ and from the bent of a strong affection and loue towards hym Amor meus pondus meum illo feror quocunque feror Which loue and promptitude ought to be so intense and vehement as that indeede it cannot transgresse any bounds within which it may seeme to be limited And therefore I heare hold it an extreame to seeke in these actions to auoid the Extreame where the Excesse if any such can be putteth on the nature of the Meane O my Lord when the Apostle did write those fiery words Praedica Verbum insta oportunè importunè argue obsecra increpa c. No doubt he taught vs thereby that in the preaching of the true Christian fayth we should performe it with all improperation speedines and alacrity not loosing the tyme in any ceremonious delayes Now my Lord where you say that the fayth taught by me is different from the fayth first planted by the Apostles I hereto answere though most breifly since this tyme is not capable of any long Discourse Yf that Christian Religion wherewith Rome was first cultiuated tilled by the labours of the Apostles did neuer since that time to this day suffer the least change in any dogmaticall materiall poynt Then followeth it ineuitably that our present Catholick ReligioÌ„ is the same which was preached by the
a Religion confesseâ—ly by it greatest Enemyes practized vniuersally throughout all Christendome the space of the aforesaid foureteene hundred yeres and by the learneder sort of Protestants graunted to be sufficient to Saluation is punished with losse of Goods and 〈◊〉 in p 〈…〉 sonment to the Professours of it and death to the Priests and 〈…〉 ers of them Quantum dist at Orius ab Occasâ— And heare I cannot omit to rehearse how the said Queene Elizabeth among other her lyke pious and charitable deeds that so theare might a sutablenes in her Actions was not afrayd contrary to the law of God contrary to the law of Nation contrary to her owne solemne vowe and promise afore giuen in that behalfe contrary to the pitifull flexure of her owne Sex and finally contrary to all Nature Honour and Religion to detayne by force to imprison to beâ—cade her owne nearest kinswoman and immediate Successour A Princes a Catholicke Queene of incompatable excellencyes and vertues Mother and therein the other Q. greater atrocitye to the late deceased Kinge of famous Memory and Grandmother to his Maiesty that now is Quis talia faudâ— Myrmidonum Dolopumue aut â—uri milles Vlyssis temperet a lacrimis Since heare this most worthy Princes descent was her only fault her byrth her cryme And thus did nearest in bloud occasioÌ„ the effusion of most innocent bloud and proximitie in Nature produce this barbarus Act euen loathed in Nature But doth your Lordship thinke that the other Q. then height of state and fastigious Dignity could be a Sanctuary without finall repentance for such her immanitie o no. Potentes potenter c. But I will conceale what followeth L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE That most deplotable Act Michaeas by you now mentioned was rather to be ascrybed perhâ—pps to certaine of the sayd Queens Councellours of state in those dayes then to the Queene herselfe But since she was a Princes of greate parts and perfections I could wish that as free from ill reproach she now being deade through of neuer dying memory might rest in Honour who gouerned with Honour VICE-CHANCELOVR my L. Iudge Michaeas is come hither not to declame thus at large or to make excursions of longe discourse is hitherto he hath bene permitted but to suffer condigne punishment for his former Misdemeanours The tyme is almost spent and therefore I would entreate your Lordship speedely to proceed to sentence against hym MICHAEAS Most Excellent Iudge ô let not my gray heyres become discolored with any imaginary Crymes nor suffer my ruinous and decayed bones to be attended to their graue with any iniust punishment and therefore In virtute tua iudica me Yf I desearne euill let me haue my due recompence Yf I be faultles I ought to be assoyled It is the law my owne demerits not this Mans viperous tongue that must make me euill LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE I will descend to your sentence Michaeas And first seing I well obsearue that greate and vnaccustoined Examples of Iustice must euer in the eye of the multitude be presumed to haue some what of Wrong at least of Rigour therefore for the better auoyding of such an aspertion I will call to mynd of what particular offences you heare rest accused and will passe my euen impartiall iudgment of them not respecting how they are amplyfied in words but what they desearue ail collaterall respects considered in themselfs S 〈…〉 ce one and the same Action the circumstances being vâ—rieâ— is with theÌ„ also varied You arr heare then Michaeas arraigned as farre as my memory may seaiue to suggest and if I do forget any thing I hope your charitable friend M. Vice-Chancelour wil be my Remembrancer of three seuerall Offences First of diuulging and mantayning Positions of Disloyalty of the subiect agaiust his Prince Secondly of spreading short Treatises in the Vniuersity contayning diuers poynts of your owne Romish Religion Thirdly and lastly of being a Priest and exercizing your Priestly function within this Realme Touching the first I can find no prouffs against you but only M. Vice-Chancelour bare naked assertion to the which I haue lesse reason to giue so farre credit as to ruâ—ish you for the same not only because you do as peremptorily deny it as he did confidently auerre it but also in that you made a voluntary and earnest protestation in the name of your selfe all other Priests and Catholicks in England of due allegeance to his Maiesty so whereas M. Vice Chancelour did thearein speake words you did speake matter Besids I should hould it no small ouersight to chastize you publykely for that presumed fault though most weakely proued with the which if your formerrelations be therein true our owne Brethren do stand in a farre higher degree and measure chargeable Touching your Pryesthood and exercizing of it in our Country the greate antiquity whereof if you haue truly discoursed of it hath party awakened my Spirits thoughe you be much blame worthy in so doing Yet I cannot but confesse that our Satuts made in that busines haue particular reference to those Pryests only which are borne in our Country and not to Aliens or strangers as you giue your selfe out to be And therefore our Lawes thearein caÌ„not take any full hould of you That third fault then it is whereunto you lye more dangerously subiect Which is touching the diuulging of your Treatises and persuading others to your owne Religion The which as it is prohibited by our Lawes for euery vrgent reasons as begetting turbulency in our setled and quyet State so the offendours thearein stand highly punishable Neuerthelesse Michaeas since in the whole procedure of your Arraignment you haue showed greate temperance in your deportment and loyalty to our Soueraigne by the which we must coniecture the integrity and candour of your Mynde for though God do iudge the words by the hart yet Man must iudge the hart by the words since Old age a Schollar and a Stranger euen in all Countryes desearue speciall commiseration and pittye Finally since he who through any great offence committed is dead in the Law if after the rigour therof be to him dispensed is become the Chyld of Mearcy enioying as it were a second Byrth in which kynd of dispencing with rigour the Highest cheifly glorieth Suauis est Dominus miserationes eius super omnia opera eius Therefore my sentence shal be against you in the most gentill maÌ„ner yet with due consideration of all circumstances And it shal be this You shall continue in this Nation as long as your selfe shall thinke good enioying your full liberty of body so that hereafter you forbeare all persuading of others to your owne Religion and do perseuer in your former obedience to his Maiesty you shall at the next Act or Commencment at Oxford be ready there publykly in the eye of that Vniuersity to defend your owne doctrine mantayned in these your written Treatises at what tyme M. Vice-Chancelour heere as