if ye meane by this visitation the outward execution of the Church lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with hisedicts and executed with his sword For in such sort many Emperors Princes haue fortified streÌ„gthned the decrees of Bishops made in Councels both general National as we shall in the processe see And this in christian Princes is not denied but coÌ„mended What the state of the question in hande is the reader hath often hearde How be it such is your importunitie that ye will neuer leaue your olde warbling But for the full satisfying of the Reader berein let him once againe resort to the issue that M. Feck requireth of the bishop to direct all hys foure meanes vnto wherin he would be satisfied And that is conteyned in these flat wordes VVhen your L. shall be able by any of these foure meanes to make proofe vnto me that any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpon them any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes I shall herein yeelde c. This then is the state of the question betwéen theÌ„ whether any Prince may take vpon him any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes as the Queenes Maiestie doth Now wheresoeuer the B. proueth anything by the foure fore said meanes that any Prince hath taken vpon him any such gouernement as doth the Queenes Maiestie in causes ecclesiasticall there the bishop kéepeth himselfe to the state of the question in hande and satisfieth M. Fecknams issue What the bishop hath done in the two foresaide meanes is euident by that that is past let others iudge thereon Here the B. entring into the other two meanes prefixeth this issue againe before him to leuell his proues by The issue is now that by any of these two meanes remayning he shall proue that anye Prince may claime or take vpon him any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie in Ecclesiasticall matters doth And where the B. by any of these two meanes shall proue that any Princes haue taken â—…pon them any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall matters as the Q. Maiestie doth there the B. digresseth nothing from his question also satisfieth M. Feck â–ª demaunde This then being the state of the question betwéene them the proofe of any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes the B. first setteth here down the particulars that plainly declare what gouernment this is that the Q. Maiestie taketh on hir wherto he must direct his proues So that now that question in hande is this What is that gouernment in what particulars consisteth it that the Q. maiestie taketh on hir Which when here the B. doth specifie in the last Chapter M. Stapl. himselfe commended the bishop for his orderly going to worke therein and now crieth out here is a state framed farre square from the question in had whether it be so or no whether it be not plain dealing of the B. and plain warbling of M. St. let any man be indifferent iudge betwéene them But M. Stapl. sayth the question is not nowe betweene M. Feck and you whether the Prince may visite reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of schismes heresies and offences in Christian religion True in déede M. St. the question is not nowe whether the Prince may doe these things that you rehearse or no but the question that is nowe in hand being deducted out of the words of the issue any such gouernment demaundeth first what kinde of gouernment that is that the Q. maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir to the which question the B. aunswereth the gouernment that hir highnesse taketh on hir is such and such c. And so the state of the question is knowne what kinde of gouernment the B. must proue And looke where he proueth any such gouernment there M. Feckenhams request is aunswered And if he can not prooue any such then M. Feckenham may complaine that he is not satisfied And as he is bounde to performe his promise of thankfull yéelding so haue you no cause to warble at this the B. diligent enumeration of those particularities of the principal question least both ye should wander in an obscure generalitie also coÌ„trarie your late vaunt that ye go to worke plainly truly and particularly But sée your falshoode how chaunce ye set not downe the Bishops wordes as he spake them but abridge them 〈◊〉 of thrée parts of them and more crying Here is a state framed farre square from the question in hande Here is a false subtiltie of you M. St. farre square from any truth in hand or out of hande The Bishops wordes are these The gouernment that the Q. Maiestie moste iustly taketh vpon hir in eccles causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting forth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer In place of all these wordes euery one béeing materiall to shewe the particular things wherein hir gouernment consisteth that she claymeth you onely for all these set downe these wordes The Prince may visite reforme and correcte all maner of persons for all maner of heresies schisines and offences in Christian religion As though the Bishops particular words specifying the poynts of hir gouernmeÌ„t conteined no more but this Neuerthelesse had the bishop specified no more but these words that ye thus contracte yet had he not swarued from the issue betweene them Any suche gouernment nor from the directâ—… answering to the question declaring any suche gouernment chiefly the chiefe poynts therof that the Quéenes maiestie claymeth and you refuse to yéelde vnto hir For euen these particularities that you set out ye will not graunte without an exception and that is in effecte vtterly to denie them althoughe in daliaunce of spéeche saying in some sense ye would onely séeme to mollifie them For what else meane these your words VVhich perchaunce in some sense might somewhat be borne withall if ye meane by this visitation and reformation the outwarde execution of the Churche lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with his edicts and executed with his sworde for in suche sorte many Emperours and Princes haue fortified and strengthened the decrees of Byshops made in Councels bothe generall and nationall as we shall in the processe see And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Christian Princes haue héere gotten afaire catche by this your graunt and commendation to become your seruants your souldiours your slaughtermen only executing with their swords that you with your authoritie decrée and appoint vnto them Now forsooth a fayre supreme authoritiâ—… But let vs sée how this doth hang togither Ye graunt theÌ„ to visite reforme
and correct all maner of persons for al maner of heresies schismes and offences in Christian religion This is inough M. St. for your part to grauÌ„t the Prince thus much Nay soft ye say you I graunt this but with a perchaunce What doth so waightie a matter hang by so rotten a thread Nay I graunt not this perchauÌ„ce neither say you but in some condition This goeth hard with Princes M. St. to stand at this smal reuersion But go to let vs see how many Princes visite reforme and correct all maner persons heresies schismes and offences What is the condition ye wil make Forsooth the condition is this looke what maner lawes and decrees the Priests will make the Prince shall only confirme them by outwarde execution of them Looke what maner persons the priests do say are heretikes â—…chismatikes and offenders the Prince shall execute them with the sworde and kill them Looke what maner religion doctrine and doings the Priests and Bishops shall in their Councels both generall and nationall decrâ—… to be heresie schisme and offence the Prince shal roborate fortifie and streÌ„gthen them And this is the only sense sayth M. St. that I meane that they should visite reforme and correct all maner persons heresies schismes and offences in Christian religion Why M. Stapl. this sense and this graunte are quite contrarie the one to the other The Prince shall visite reforme and correct all maner of persons heresies schismes and offences that is to say he shall not visite reforme nor correct any maner of person for any maner of all these things but the Priest shall do it and he shall onely be the Priestes slaue and executioner Well sayth M. Stap. be it as be may construe it as ye will this is the onely some sense that we may graunt it in and in none other sense And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Is not héere a proper graunt to Princes and is not master Stap. to be commended for this some sense of christian Princes gouernment But who is so senselesse that he seeth not in this sense that the Prince hath no gouernement at all but is made a very slaue to the Popish priests authoritie And in this some sense coulde master Stapl. finde in his heart to acknowledge a gouernement to the Queenes maiestie and yet not without a perchaunce neither But without perchaunce master Stap. your sense sheweth what good harte ye beare hir Maiestie and all other christian Princes Now that M. Stap. hath thus chalenged the state which the bishop framed and yet graunteth with a perchaunce thereto in some sense which sense is as you haue heard he taketh vpon him to set downe the true state of the question in hande and prefixeth these words in his margine The state of the question and so procéedeth saying But the question is here nowe whether the Prince or lay magistrate may of him selfe and of his own princely authoritie without any higher eccl. power in the Church within or without the Realme visite reforme and correct and haue all maner of gouernment and authoritie in all things causes eccl. or no. As whether the Prince may by his own supreme authoritie depose and set vp Bishops and priests make iniunctions of doctrine prescribe order of Gods seruice enact matters of religioÌ„ approue and disproue articles of the faith take order for administration of Sacraments commaund or put to silence Preachers determine doctrine excoÌ„municate and absolue with such like which al are causes eccl. and al apperteyning not to the inferiour ministerie which you grauÌ„t to Priests and Bishops only but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernment which you do annexe to the Prince only This I say is the state of the question now present For the present question betweene you and M. Feck is grounded vpon the othe comprised in the statute which statute emplieth and concludeth all these particulars I had thought séeing your earnestnesse M. St. when ye came to meÌ„tioning the statute that we should haue herd all these things that ye haue thus as it were on your fingers endes particularly named expressed in the statute But wheÌ„ al coÌ„meth to al ye knit vp the matter with this which statute implyeth concludeth al these particulars But I sée you employ your selfe like your self stil to false coÌ„clusions And such as your coÌ„clusions are such are your proues You pretende here after ye haue controlled the B. to set down the true state of the questioÌ„ But as ye played in the beginning so ye holde out rubbers euen to the ending Ye are stil the same man that cried out of short wide shoting hauing set vp new markes of your owne making by this doing both to defeate the bishops profes also to deceiue the reader Ye would fayne driue all to the othe and make the othe the present question And why so bicause say you the present question is grounded on the othe True in déede bothe the present question and all other questions about this controuersie and the issue also agréed vpon betwéene these parties is grounded as ye say vpon the oth And bicause the present question is grounded theron it is a good argument against you that the oth is not theÌ„ the present questioÌ„ bicause the present questioÌ„ is grouÌ„ded theron a question is not grounded on it selfe Ye shoulde haue marked that though the originall be of the othe yet both the issue the present questioÌ„ in haÌ„d being by degrées deducted from thence make nowe an other state To the which to this issue if the bishop satisfie ye can not iustly chaleÌ„ge him any further As for that state of the question that you set downe and the particulars thereof that ye say are implyed and concluded in the statute that all those things are apperteining not to the inferiour but to the supreme iurisdiction and gouernment that ye say we annexe to the Prince only al these are your most manifest vntruthes slanders nor ye can finde them either specified emplyed concluded comprised or any wayes to be ment in the othe or in the statute or in any parte therof Neither the othe or the statute giue al maner of gouernment and authoritie in all things and causes ecclesiasticall to the Prince but ascribe to the Prince the supreme gouernment and authoritie in al things and causes ecclesiasticall True it is that supreme gouernement is aboue ouer them but yet the one is not the other supreme gouernment is not all maner of gouernment Neither bothe the othe or the statute either in wordes or effect of wordes ascribe to this the Princes supreme gouernment the making of Priests and Bishops the making iniunctions of doctrine the determining of doctrin the approuing or disprouing articles of the faith excommunicating and absoluing the preaching of the worde and the administration of Sacramentes Where fynde ye any of these things so muche as to be gathered out
But sith none hath aduentured on it I thought it my dutie to yeelde to the godlie and vrgent requestes of those personages that vnderstanding I had priuately delte therin required the publishing of my labours to the vvhich I condescended a great deale the vvillinger partly bicause it touched vvithall the defence of that Reuerende fathers innocencie and learning the Bishop of VVinchester vvho had although briefly yet most orderly and exactly handled this questioÌ„ before and vvas oppugned by this aduersarie neither vvas it for diuers causes thought so coÌ„uenient for the Bishop himselfe to ansvvere and I for my part was bounde in so iust a cause to defend him But chiefly for that it spared not most opprobriously to slaunder your most excelleÌ„t Maiestie your title your state your gouernment your most honorable and godlie CouÌ„saile your nobilitie your Bishops your clergie your magistrats your iustices your people and all estates of your dominions your doctrine your faith your religion yea the truth and glorie of God vvhich your Highnesse defendes to all vvhich I and all other are bounde in principall I thought not good therefore to stay it any longer and suffer these vncircumcised Philistines blaspheming the truth of God reproching the Lords anoynted and rayling on the hoste of Israel to stand thus and vaunt vnansvvered but lette this ansvvere that I had thus farforth made in priuate â–ª come abrode to others Promising god vvilling by your Maiesties fauourable protection to deale further vvith them and to shevvethe continuall practise hereof hovve in all ages since Christendome began to flourishe vnder the Great Constantine that christian Emperors Kings and Princes haue dealte as doth your Maiestie in the ouersight of Ecclesiastical matters till the Pope by little and little encroching on them not onely spoyled them of this their chief authoritie but of their temporal estates and vvorldly kingdoms yea of their goodes liues also In the meane season for this that is here alreadie ansvvered vnto I most humbly craue your Highnesse acceptation vvhose right is here defended by truth from sclanders that by iustice defendeth our right from iniuries Most hartily beseeching almightie God as he hitherto hath vouchsafed so to blesse preserue continue and prosper your Royal Maiestie to the loÌ„g establishing of your Highnes Throne to the vtter vanquishing of all your spirituall and bodily priuie and open enimies to the godlie comforte and quiet gouernment of all your faithful subiects and to the prosperous aduancement of Gods euerlasting glorie thorough Iesus Christe AMEN Youre Maiesties humble and obedient subiect IOHN BRIDGES The Preface to the Reader IT is nowe a good while since deare Christian Reader that this maister Stapletons Counterblast was blowne ouer the seas from Louaine against the Reuerende father in Christe the Bishop of Winchester or rather against the Quenes Maiestie and hir Supremacie was thus farre answered vnto as here is nowe set foorth Which may easily be perceiued by the reading for there is little or nothing altered except a sentence or two here there added as things haue falne out since I speake this that thou shouldest not here loke for any great or exquisite penning thinking that after so loÌ„g a leysure some more notable and exacter answere should come forth Our aduersaries vaunt much of their wittes herein and chieâ—…y this my matefellow master Stapleton to be verie fresh pregnant in readinesse of answering for he is his mothers sonne and hath it on his fingers ends Howbeit I may say to these as Apelles sayd to one who when he had drawne a picture Lo quoth he I did this apace Some thinkes quoth Apelles it is so ruÌ„ningly done And thus it falleth often out with our Loâ—…anists writings but Sat cito si sat bene It is soone ynough if it be well inough say I when all is done The reasâ—… why this answere came forth no soner are these First I kept it priuate to my self abyding if either the Bishop against whome it was made or any other woulde aunswere to it Secondly I heard at the length that Maister Nowell the Deane of Poules trauayled in it whose learning and wisedome being suche as all the aduersaries could neuer withstand I surceased to proceede any further Thirdly when I perceiued he set not out his answere neither I thought it best to lay myne asyde also Thinking that either he was stayed vpoÌ„ som weightier consideration than I did know or else that he did thinke the boke not worth the answering at al as in very deed to the lerned marker it is not M. Nowel had answered Dorman in muche like matter before which were the occasioÌ„s why it slept so loÌ„g But since that time as many haue mused and talked much on the matter so they haue not a little marueiled why nothing was said vnto it The argument was great and waightie not so muche whether nowe the Supremacie belonged to the Pope as whether it pertained to the ciuil Magistrate and whether the Queenes Maiestie did claime and hold it by right or no The parties in controuersie were of note as wel master Feckenham among the Papistes as the Bishop of Winchester whose estimation among vs is not more for his authoritie than his name amoÌ„g other nations for his learning Nowe when Master Stapleton stept in lyke a lustie yoncker and blewe vp this Counterblast betwene these twain so hotly hallowing for answer out of hande to be made by the Bishop therto al this while had none some did interprete it that he was a very vnfit matche for so graue a Bishop as to say the truth the match was nothing euen And therefore I wite not the Bishop if he vouchsafed not to answer him especially seing home his booke was so pestred with scoldes and scorners Rhetorike Neither will the horse of noble corage strike at euery brauling curre that barks at his heeles But when others missecoÌ„strued this to the worst said the Counterblast was so notably blown that the Bishop durst not nor was able he nor any other to answer it wheÌ„ vpon the head of all this M. Saunders Latine volume coÌ„mes forth although chiefly on the Popes visible Monarchie yet once again entring into this questioÌ„ of the Princes Supremacie with fresh matter as he bosteth with such inuincible arguments against it that all are but vnlearned starke fooles and cleane madde that do defend it and not thus content so depresseth the Princes estate that he will now proue the Pope hath interest to depose al Christian Princes and release their sâ—…biects of their sworn obedience which valiant champion vauÌ„teth also of his felow Stapletons noble peece of woorke againste the Princes Supreme Gouernment saying in his prayse Quod argumentum â–ª Thomas Stapletonus omnium copiosissimè tractaâ—…it in â—…o Libro quenâ—… 〈◊〉 eloquentia doctrina refertum contra Hornum Psâ—…udoepiscopum Wintoniensâ—… edidiâ—… vvhiche argument Thomas Stapleton hathe moste copiously handeled in that booke vvhiche beeing replenished
now Luther can take no place amongst vs he obiecteth another vnto vs one Andreas Modrenius And yet his saying also maketh God wote ful little for the Papists herein Who saith there ought to be some one to be taken for the chiefe and supreme head in the whole Church in all causes ecclesiasticall What conclude ye M. St. herevpon Ergo it must be your Pope or no christian prince And here as though all these were not yet sufficient testimonies ye bring in Caluin But since ye doe it but to fill vp your booke with that common allegation of your side which being also not omitted of M. FeckeÌ„ham is to be referred to be propounded and answered vnto in his proper place I therefore remit you thither Onely to that ye say he so spitefully handled King Henrie the eyght as hee neuer handled the Pope more spitefully I aunswere this is but your spitefull lie to deface the Protestantes Else why doe ye not proue the same And as for your Pope it is euident also he neuer handled him spitefully but onely reproued his vyces and errours by the worde of god But howe spitefullie your Pope and popishe Prelates so farre as they coulde handeled him and howe spitefully they handle all Protestantes that they maye once sette their spitefull spirituall fingers vppon all the worlde doeth sée And yet the silie Protestantes muste beare all the blame it is not ynoughe for them to beare the iniuryes This lesson ye learned of the Diuell of Dowgate to bite and whine also or rather ye doe as Esops Woolfe did chalenge the poore Lambe for troubling his water and to misuse him spitefully but thys mercifull Woolfe deuoured this spitefull Lambe He vrgeth vs farther in great outcryes with a sentence of one Anthonie Gilbie our own Countriman The summe of his argument is this Anthonie Gilbie an Englishe man speaketh verie vnreuerently and vnreligiously of King Henrie the eight Ergo the Protestantes now in England whatsoeuer they pretende and dissemble in wordes in heart mislike the Quéenes maiesties gouernment How doth this follow M. St and yet ye wrest Anthonie Gilbies sentence also He speaketh not of this supremacie neyther but in plaine wordes of such a supremacie in England as the Pope chalengeth all ouer Christendome Though therefore he be greatly to be blamed for his vnreuerent speach and for his vnaduised mistaking of hys Princes lawfull authoritie yet is he not to be belyed as though he spoke of all kinde of supremacie in all princes simplie It is a shame as they say M. St. euen to belie the Diuell But sée how the matter falleth out Ye haue brought Anthonie Gilbyes sentence agaynst vs and the Quéenes maiesties authoritie Haue ye not wel holpeÌ„ your self if this sentence also make flat agaynst your pope For if as he sayth therin truely Christ ought onely to be the head of the church the placing of any other displaceth him then is not the pope the head also but the placing of him displaceth christ But the Pope chalengeth to be the heade of the Churche also which our prince doth not Ergo not our prince but your Pope displaceth christ And thus thinking to beate vs ye still make a rodde for your owne Popes tale And here sodenly calling to mind how far he hath straied in forraging out these sentences he returneth a little to the Bishop setting on him for calling the Pope the Papists god in earth the archeheretike of Rome and that M. Fec would haue him reigne in the Queenes place Besturring himselfe with a heape of arguments to defende his Pope Besides his scoffes raylings and other rhetoricall floures quoted in his common places But first for his Pope sayth he VVe make no God of the Pope and sometimes perhaps no good man neyther In déede M. Stap. ye should haue more than both your handes full to make your Pope sometimes a good man â–ª ye néede not put perhaps to the matter It would pose him selfe and all the Diuels in hell and that oftentymes to worke such a miracle on him as that man of sinne that childe of perdition and aduersarie of God to become a good man. But yet I say beware howe ye speake such buggishe words of him as not to be a good man. Whose wil is law whose law is all power in heauen in earth in hell Nowe can this be an ill man Beware least this come to his eares M. Stap. and withall that ye make him not a God in earth Are not you of theyr religion that beléeue and confesse this principle 〈◊〉 deus noster Papa Our Lorde God the Pope Yea and as some say he is Plusque deuâ—… If ye be beware his thunderbolt If ye be not whie defende ye him and his errors against the truth of God whie forsake you your most vertuous Prince to follow a straunger and that an yll man but you answere And yet we reuerence him for his office and authoritie that Christ so amply and honourably gaue him for preseruation of vnitie and quietnesse in his Church That ye reuerence him in déede and that is more adore him to is manifest But the patent of that his office and authoritie that ye crake Christe so amplie and so honorably gaue your Pope ye shewe none nor where nor how nor when he gaue it Only ye tell vs of the endes wherefore he gaue it For the preseruation of vnitie and quietnes in his Church But if these were the endes M. St. he hath forfeited his patent long ago That not onely disagreeth from the expresse wordes and commauÌ„dement of Christ but swerueth one Pope from another And how chance he setteth his own scholemeÌ„ his Canonists at no better vnitie his Thomists and his Scotistes his sects of Religions at no better quietnes than a tâ—…ade a snake togither how chance he agreeth no better with his Bishops his own colledge of cardinals How chance he falleth out so often with Emperours and kings setteth Princes their subiectes by the eares togither why fighteth he so fast with both his swordes like king Arthures dubble sworded knight why had he rather at this day that al christendome were in a broyle so much blâ—…ud were cruelly shedde than he would relent one inche of his honour one penie of his filthie gaine one iâ—…te of his errors Idolatries false dectrines that eueÌ„ are coÌ„fessed of his own secte giue place to the worde of God is this his preseruing of vnitie and quietnes in the Church of Christ or had he any such patent giuen him hath he not lost and lost it againe and will ye still reuerence and adore him for it Secondly where the Bishop calleth your Pope the arch-heretike of Rome Your wisedome say you with like truth also appeareth in that ye call the Pope the Archeheretike of Rome naming no man and so your wordes so liberally waÌ„tonly cast out do as well comprehende
suum sub manu Aaron patris eorum sicut praeceperat dominus deus Israel These are theyr courses after their ministeries to enter into the house of the Lorde and according to theyr manner be vnder the hande of Aaron their father as the Lorde God of Israel hath commaunded Which last wordes ye beginne withall and ioyne them to the first parte as thoughe the Lordes commaundement had béene of Dauids appoyntment where it was onely of the obedience of all the Tribe of Leuie to be vnder Aaron and his successors in the ministerie which in deede was Gods statte commaundement But the appoynting of the courses to those mencioned in that place was Dauids commaundement euen as your selfe doe say it was King Dauids appoyntment And the Chapter before of the lyke argument playnlye sayeth Iuxta pracepta quoquè Dauid 〈◊〉 c. And according to the last commaundements of Dauid the Leuites were numbered from twentie yeare and vpwarde to wayte vnder the hande of the sonnes of Aaron in the seruice of the house of the Lorde But admit that these wordes Sicut praeceperat c. as god had commaunded be to be ment as you pretend of a speciall coÌ„maundement to Dauid so to dispose those courses as ye expound it he did nothing without gods coÌ„maundement Is this again I pray you any argumeÌ„t to improue his supreme authority next vnder god bicause he did al things sicut praeceperat dominus as the lord had coÌ„maundéd then by this same rule yourpriest should not haue the supremacie neither for I am sure he had no further priuiledge to do against or beyond Gods coÌ„maundement no more than Dauid had It is your Pope that thus stretcheth his claime to do beyonde all Gods forvoade and contrarie to Gods commaundement but little or nothing sicut praeceperat dominus deuâ—… Israel as the Lord God of Israel hath coÌ„maunded As for the Quéenes Maiestie hath not done or doth any thing more than Dauid did which is sicut praeceperat c. as God hath commaunded hir to do And syth Gods commaundement vnto Dauid stretcheth to the placing appointing both aboue vnder in their orders of sacrifices eueÌ„ of all the leuiticall priesâ—…es it strengthneth hir cause the more that she hath not onely the bare example of King Dauid but also the warrant of Gods commaundement for the supreme gouernement of all hir clergie to place them in their seuerall functions Secondly ye say ye haue to note that king Dauid did make appoyntment vnto them of no straunge or new order to be taken in religion but that they should serue God in the temple iuxta ritum suum after their owne vsage custome or maner before time vsed Secondly we note to you againe M. St. that you interprete his sayings ambiguously and applie it maliciously Ambiguously bicause thoughe Dauid neyther made any straunge or newe order to be taken in Religion nor yet in their vsage custom or maner of their ceremonies commaunded of god and so vsed before his time but saw euery thing dutifully obserued both sicut praeceperat dominus iuxta ritum suum as the Lord had coÌ„manded after their owne order yet in their courses and in other circumstances diuers of his orders were new and strange vnto them and of his owne appoyntment And diuers ceremonies that were iuxta ritum suum according to their own order hauing been neglected by the priests and become straunge vnto them those he redressed iuxta ritum suum according to their own order and sicut praeceperat dominus as the Lorde had commaunded But what serueth this howe soeuer ye expounde it to infringe any supreme gouernement in king Dauid bicause the Prince is bounde not to alter the Priestes rites and ceremonies béeing appoynted of God Ergo he is not supreme gouernour in séeing them kéept accordingly might ye not rather argue contrarywise The prince is bound not to alter religion nor those orders that God hath ordeyned bringing in straunge and new Ergo he is bound to ouersée care and prouide that those orders be onely kept and none other brought in And if princes had alwayes looked to this their duetie more narrowly than they haue done then had not your Pope and popishe Prelates broughte in so many vayne traditions false doctrines and superstitious ceremonies as they haue neither iuxta ordinem suum according to their owne order nor sicut praceperat dominus as the Lord commaunded On the other part this your application is a malicious slaunder to the Q. highnesse For she hath not made or appointed to be receiued any strange or new order in religion but reuoked the olde primatiue order of religion ordeined of Christ and hath appoynted the ministers of God to do their dueties secundum ritum suum according to their owne order sicut praeceperat dominus as our sauiour Christ by him selfe and his Apostles hath prescribed to them It is your Pope and Papall Church that offreth strange fire to God that hath appoynted erected those strange and newe orders in religion and therfore hir maiestie hath worthily abolished all those false priests with their strange and new orders and all their false worship of God and in that hir highnesse thus doth she sheweth hir selfe to follow Dauids eâ—…sample like a godly supreme gouernour Thirdly and lastly say you king Dauids appoyntment was that they should serue in the house of God sub manu Aaron patris corum as vnder the spirituall gouernement of their father Aaron and his successors the high Priests Héere agayne to the shew of some aduauntage ye translate sub manu which is vnder the hande importing attendant at hande in their ministerie to the high Priest vnder the spirituall gouernement as thoughe they were exempted from the kings gouernement and so you make your conclusion saying The which words of the Scripture do so well and clearely expresse that king Dauid did not take vpon him any spirituall gouernment in the house of god c. This conclusion is captious and yet not to the purpose There is a difference betwéene spirituall gouernment and gouernment ouer spirituall â—…cclesiasticall matters This ye should conclude not that if ye will confute the bishop And this gouernment ouer spirituall matters tooke Dauid on him the other that is the spirituall gouernment he left entier vnto the Priests without any preiudice to their ecclesiasticall authoritie as ye graunted before And as Dauid therin did so doth the Quéenes Maiestie nowe But what maketh this agaynst king Dauids supreme gouernment that the inferior priests Leuites in their ministeries offices were by the kings appoyntment vnder the hande or spirituall gouernment of their spirituall father Aaron and his successors the high priests as you translate the text Is it not also the Q. Maiesties appoyntment that the inferiour Ministers should serue in their functions vnder the spiritual gouernment of their bishops and bicause it is hir
in his owne person throughout al his couÌ„trey What fault find ye herewith that he called it a progresse call you it an egresse or by what ye can finde a more vsuall or â—…itter name where the prince him selfe doth trauell The text is 〈◊〉 egressus est ad populuÌ„ and again he went foorth vnto the people Stande ye on that he said it was in his owne person In déede Lyra saith per sacerdotes Leuit as sicuâ—… ante ficaraâ—… He went foorth by the Priests Leuites as he had done before But the text séemeth coÌ„trary that he traueled him selfe Wheron Uatablus noteth vt ambularet per populuÌ„ fortasse queÌ„ offenderat â—…alo exeÌ„plâ—… vel per populuÌ„ cut praeâ—…rat quasi dicat peâ—…agrauit regioneÌ„ sibi subditam That he might trauel by the people whoÌ„ perhaps he had offended by his euill exaÌ„ple for personally he went out with them to Achabs warres or by the people whoÌ„ he ruled as though he should say he trauelled all ouer the realme that was subiect to him Are ye offended that he sayth throughout al his countrey The text is playne De Bersabe vsque ad monteÌ„ Ephraim from Beersabee euen to the mount Ephraim Id est sayth Lyra à principio regni sui vsque ad finem that is from the beginning of his kingdome euen to the end therof Of which progresse in the note before sayth Lyra Hie consequenter ponitur ipsius Iosaphat emeÌ„datio in se populo primo in cultu diuino Here consequently is set foorth the amendment of Iosaphat in him selfe and in the people and first in the worship of God. In none of these words hitherto there is any indignitie nothing to be detested or any ridiculous tale to be laughed at but euery word is agreable to the most graue holy and infallible worde of God. If there were therfore any such leuitie detestablenesse in the bishops termes it is only in this that he likened those parties to iustices of the peace But this name I am sure is neither to be detested nor laughed at except you be some od wicked Lucian or Timon â—…all godly christians can allowe this name with reuerence Is the ridiculcusnesse detestablenesse in saying the one might resemble the other reade the text Constituitque Iudices terrae in cunctis ciuitatibus Iuda munitis per singula loca and he appointed Iudges of the land in all the walled cities of Iuda through all places Now could a man expresse this by a liuelyer example than to say those petit iudges were as it were Iustices of the peace if you can shewe a more apter estate to expresse them by do it on Gods name I dare say for the Byshop he will giue you good leaue though ye somewhat missed the quishion make no such haynous matter therat Lyra sayth Hic secundo describitur ipsius Iosaphat populi melioratio in regimine populi primo in communibus causis secundo in arduis in quibus erat recursus in Hierusalem Circa primum dicitur constituitque Iudices vt non oporteat populum discurrere à loca ad locum ad habendum in causis communibus Heere secondly is described the bettering of Iosaphat him selfe and his people in the gouernance of the people first in common causes secondly in difficulte causes wherein the recourse was vnto Hierusalem Concerning the firste it is sayde and he appoynted Iudges to be had in the common matters that the people shoulde not runne vp and downe from place to place And is not this exposition of Lyra so agreable to the Byshops that it conteyneth euen the same what cause then had ye héere Master Stapl. to make this haynous exclamation Were not this youre dealing rather ridiculous and to be laughed at sauyng that the indignitie of your enuious demeanour is more to be detested But nowe in the matter of all this what is héere that directly inferreth not Iosaphats supreme gouernement not onely ouer the nobles and the people but ouer the Priests Leuites preachers al the clergy in directing and setting foorth the word worship of God that not only in coÌ„moÌ„ matters but eueÌ„ for those matters also of the priests senteÌ„ce at Ierusalem for the which hitherto ye haue made so muche ado but all this M. Stap. though he saw it plaine inough yet he thought best not to meddle therwith But rather least the reader shoulde marke it also to finde him play about the printing of words and phrases and here at to hallow and make suche outcries as though all the matter lay therein Yea he bursteth out into such a vehemencie of his spirite that not contente with his former haynous quarels he layeth yet greater to the Byshops charge saying But from fonde counterfayting he proceedeth to flat lying for where he sayth that Iosaphat commanded and prescribed vnto the chiefe Priests what fourme and order they should obserue in the ecclesiasticall causes and controuersies of religion c. This is a lewde and a horrible lye flatly belying Gods holy worde the which in one that goeth for a Byshop what can be done more abhominable In déede M. Stapl. it were an abhominable thing to belye Gods holy worde were it in any man chiefly in a Byshop but this abhomination besides many worsse not only lewdly flatly horribly to belie but to deface blaspheme yea to take away and burne Gods holy worde are the right properties of your Popish Bishops not of ours But what hath the Bishop nowe héere saide that belyeth and accordeth not with the holy scripture for the wordes which you your selfe set foorth do they not playnly comprehende a fourme and order which they should obserue in ecclesiasticall matters and controuersies of religion Sic agetis c. Thus shall ye do in the feare of the Lorde faythfully and with a perfect heart And as your selfe expound it They should do their duetie faythfully and perfectly as they had done before in the dayes of Asa and Abias Lo do not your owne selfe héere confesse a maner and fourme of order which be prescribed them to do those things by Agayne are not these your owne words howe Iosaphat appoynted the Leuites and priestes to these ecclesiasticall functions it shal appeare in the next Chapter by the example of Ezechias Where ye say howe he did it had that how no maner or fourme of order in it Yes but ye say that maner of fourme shall appeare in the example of Ezechias A Gods name so let it doe in the meane season ye graunt he did it after the fourme of order that Ezechias dyd it And there ye say that Ezechias did it as Dauid did it But ye wotte well the Scripture sheweth at large the fourmes and orders of Dauids appoyntments if therefore Ezechias did it like to Dauid and Iosaphat like to Ezechias then is the bishops saying proued true by all these your confessions that he
was giuen not to a fewe being yet but â—…elie Christians of putting confidence rather in Sainctes bones than in the liuing God which ought not to haue bene done And thus do your own Pope Councels and writers condemne your selues for the horrible abuses of these your blessed Reliques and therefore we may worthely reiect them To your Lightes I answere true it is the Churche in the time of S. Hierome loÌ„g before vsed Lights But as he witnesseth himself they vsed theÌ„ for their necessitie in their Morning and Euening prayers which first sprang of this that the Churche in time of persecution assembled as they might closely in caues in cellars and other priuy places comming togither very early in the morning and very late in the euening yea in the dead of the night to inuocate God to heare his worde and participate the Lords supper so that lights were necessarie for them After the time of persecution kéeping still those howres of prayer they likewise serued for their vse till by litle litle as other things they also began eueÌ„ about S. Hieromes time to be abused And not long after about Gregories time to be kept light euen in the broade day and to be set in goldeÌ„ candlestickes which the former fathers counted and called heathen customes For the Heathen vsed lampes burning day night and tapers before their Idols on their aulters besides their torche lights euen as the Papists vsed But you wil say not they onely vsed lights but God also ordeyned lightes to be vsed in the Temple Indéede if ye could proue vs to be bounde to the ceremonies of the olde lawe or that Christ had renewed them and not rather abrogated them nor ordayned any other like them in their places then should ye say something to the matter But what néede ye labour to reduce the lawe since ye are not ashamed to confesse it came from the Heathen vsage Polygrane confesseth and braggeth of it that all your candles on Candlemasse day came from the wicked and old superstition of the Ethnikes Tradunt enim hystoriographi c. For the historiographers tell that the heathen Romaines had a custome that alwaies at the fift yeare in the moneth of February they kept the feast of going about the clensing with torches and lightes in the honour of Februa the mother of Mars whom they tooke for the God of battayle And also in the same moneth the Romaine women with the like worship of candels kept the memorie of Proserpina whome being rauished of Pluto the God of hell they feigne that hir mother Ceres sought hir eueÌ„ to mount Aetna VVhich superstition was first of the Grecians bicause of a most grieuous pestilence in the yeare of health 551. turned into the foresayde worship of solemnitie But afterwarde of Sergius Byshop of Rome who first chaunged his name for the deformitie thereof being called Os Porci Swines face or Hogges snout it was turned into a common religion as also the feast of all the Gods was dedicate to all Saints VVhich was about the yeare of the Lorde 694 â–ª that the Christian people should make memorials not so much of Februa and Proserpine as of Christ and Marie Iacobus de Uoragine agréeth somwhat herewith though herein he agrée little to himself and least of all to the truth besides his impudent Idolatrie to the Uirgine Marie quite forgetting Christ and ascribing all the honour of your candels vnto hir First he sayth it came vp herevppon Quod Simeon lumen Christum vocauit ideo consuetudo inoleuit in Ecclesia vt hodie lumina deferamus Bicause Simeon called Christ a light therefore grewe the custome of the Church that on this day we carie lightes For euen as this day Marie Ioseph Simeon and Anna did after the order of Procession carie a light in the Church so do we after the order of Procession carie Candles light vnto the Church As this is a most euident and grosse lie for neyther then nor long after they knewe what Procession mâ—…nt nor caried any light in the Temple which had bene quite beyond Gods commaundement nor any such doing is in the scripture but onely that this blinde authour followed to much the pictures in the Primer or the Masse booke that painte out the midwife or Ioseph holding a Taper so it neyther agréeth with the other common opinion nor yet with himselfe For euen immediately after But we must note saith he that there is a triple reason of this obseruance aud custome the one a literall the other a spirituall the thirde a morall The literall reason iâ—… this for bicause the Romaynes in the olde time did celebrate three feastes with lightes the First in the honour of Proserpina the Seconde in the honour of Februa the Third in the honor of all the Court of hell â–ª c. to appease them and induce them to mercie that they would more mildely punishe the soules of their friendes departed But bicause it is a hard matter to forsake things accustomed the Romaynes after they receyued the sayth of Christ did yet also kepe these feasts of lightes in Februarie Pope Gregorie therefore did chaunge this feast into the honour of the mother of light That in hir honour we should beare lightes that bare vnto vs the true light Nor that now it shoulde bee made to Februa the mother of the God of battell but to the honour of the mother of the GOD of peace That it should not nowe be to the honour of the court of Deuils but to the honour of the Queene of all Angels and worthily was this translation made The Romaynes did therefore honour Proserpina that so she might obtaine grace of hir husbande They honored Februa to obtain victorie of hir sonne They honored the Deuils that punished the soules to encline them to mercie But these three things we receyue of the mother of God that is to wit grace mercie and victorie And therefore the Church singeth Marie mother of grace mother of mercie For shee gyueth grace to the lyuing and therefore is called the mother of grace And to the deade obteyneth mercie and therefore it followeth mother of mercie And to the vniuersall Church shee obteyneth victorie of their enimyes and therefore it followeth defende thou vs from the enimie c. Thus sayeth Iacobus de Uoragine of the originall of your feast of lightes That it was but a chaungeling of the Infidels hatched of your Pope on this grounde that it was harde to forsake an olde Heathen custome But thinking to chaunge these lightes to the better haue yée not blasphemed God euen by his Saints as yll or worse than they did by theyr Idols Your Legende disagréeth from thys latter deuise of Proserpina c. And sayeth This feast is called Candlemasse and is made in remembraunce of the offering that oure Ladie offered in the Temple as sayde is And eueryeche beareth this day a Candle of VVaxe
worshipped ye then and that with such high worship to your solemne Saint Thomas Becket that dyed for no matter of Religion at all But eyther for his obstinacie agaynste his liege Lorde and agaynst all the Barons Spirituall and Temporall of the Realme or if ye colour it neuer so fayre yet was it but in mainteyning his honour and the priuileges of the Clergie and that contrarie to the auncient custome of the Realme except yée will graunt that the Popishe Religion doeth consiste herein Whiche if ye bée ashamed to confesse vpbrayde not then for shame false Martyrs vnto vs nor yet the Canonising of wicked Sainctes We vse no such Canonization at all It redoundeth on your selfe on your Legende on your Popes and on your Pope holy Saincts Whome by this rule you make both Donatists Montanists Manicheans or what soeuer Heretikes ye can obiect besides As for all these Comparisons hitherto betwéene the Protestantes and the Donatists wherein ye thinke ye haue be stowed great cunning there is not 〈◊〉 poyâ—… that is not violently wrested to make it séeme to touch vs and not one poynt that being returned on your selues doeth not rightly and fully hitte you home againe And therefore I for my part am content as you concluding say you be To ende this talke with the whole conference leauing it to the indifferent Reader to consider whether the Popishe Catholikes or the Protestants drawe nearer to the Donatists To come newe at length to the sixt and last parte of this Chapter which consistes in remâ—…ing such motiues as the Bishop alleageth to burtheâ—… Master Feckenham with the practise of the Donatists First master Stapleton deuideth these motiues in twaine Let vs then sayth master Stapleton proceede foorth and consider vpon what good motiues ye charge master Feckenham to be a Donatist whiche are to say truth none other but falsehoode and follie But as ye surmise the one is bicause hee craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the prooues of the olde Testament as the Donatists did The other bicause hee with the sayde Donatists should auouch that secuâ—…er Princeâ—… haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes ecclesiasticall nor to punishe any man for such causes These two motiues ye say Master Stapleton are to say the truth none other but falsehoode and follie In déede they are the worsâ—… by comming through so false a marchantes handes as yours For shame either tell the wordes as they â—…e at least the true and full effect of them or neuer sette them out in a distinct letter syâ—… you so often but euer falsly vpbrayde the Bishop hereof Else all the follie and falsehoode will proue to be in your selfe and not in the Bishops motiues The Bishop spâ—…ke not of Princes medling or punishing for Ecclesiasticall 〈◊〉 as though the Donatists simpliâ—… denied that anâ—… yâ—… graunted Princes yet so much as to meddle or punishe for your Ecclesiasticall causes that is to say to be your executioners therin as though the Emperors other Christian Princes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more vpon them at that time But the Bishop tolde how the godly fathers craued aide assistance of the magistrats and rulers to reforme them to reduce them to the vâ—…itie of the church to represse their heresies with their au thoritie godly lawes made for that purpose to whome it belonged of duetie and whose especiall seruice of Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiects be gouerned defended and mainteyned in the true and syncere religion of Christ without all errours superstitions and heresies This is that the Bishop wrote and to proue this he alleageth Saint Augustine Thus did Christian Princes gouerne in Ecclesiasticall causes then This did the Donatists then denie vnto them and this do now the Papists denie and ye come sneaking in and tell vs the Bishoppes motiue was this In charging Master Feckenham to followe the Donatists by cause hee with the Donatistes shoulde auouche that seculer Princes haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall nor to punishe anie man for suche causes As though the controuersie had bâ—…ne for anie kinde of medling or punishing whiche you sâ—…ming to graunt to Princes to bée your seruaunts and droyles in suche ecclesiasticall causes and so farre as you assigne them might therefore séeme not to play the Donatists when ye play their partes so liuely as can bée and so subtilly that the Donatistes were but Babes vnto you in séeming to giue them some medling or punishing in Ecclesiasticall causes but if they meddle with or punishe you or anie other otherwise than ye commaunde and restrayne them you so little then suffer them to meddle in Ecclesiasticall matters that with solemne curses ye debarre them from medling in anie temporall and ciuill matters too so farre ye passe the Donatists For shame master Stapleton tell your tale plainely that we may sée whether M. Feckenham played the Donatistes part or no or else your doubling wyll declare your selfe to be a Donatist also for companie But let vs sée how ye aunswere these motiues euen as your selfe propounde them The one is say you bicause he craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the proues of the old Testament as the Donatistes did Your Stale Iestes M. Stapleton of a fine blast of a horne â–ª of a â—…oule slawe of a blinde betell blunte shifte I ouer passe them When M. Feckenham ye say offereth to yelde if ye can proue this regiment either by the order that Christ left behinde him in the new Testament either by the Doctours either by Councels or els by the continuall practise of any one Churche thinke you M. Horne that this is not a large and an ample offer The largenesse of this offer is not here in questioÌ„ M. St. the offer is large and ample inough â–ª taken of the Bishop at his handes and proued vnto him at his owne demaunde It remaineth then that he stande to his promise and yelde to the truth or else he sheweth that he minded to offer more than he purposed to perfourme Onely now it is examined why here he specifieth the new Testament and quite leaueth out the old Testament â–ª This doing in this pointe saith the B. smelleth of a Donatist Nay say you There is not so much as any coÌ„iecture to gather this vppon yea the old Testament is not by this offer excluded but verely included For if the new Testament which rehearseth many things out of the old haue any thing out of the old Testament that make for this regiment if any Doctour old or new if any Councell haue any thing out of the old Testament that serue for this regiment then is Master Feckenham concluded yea by his owne graunt For so the Doctour or Councell hath it he is satisfied according to his demaunde VVhereby it followeth he doth not refuse but rather allowe and affirme the proufes of the old Testament It might
who moste pernitiously raysed vp a schisme of the whole Churche and had Circumcelions bothe a madde and fierce kinde of men whiche murthered with swordes maymed with Sythes and with Lyme mingled with Vinegar put oute the eyes of the true beleeuers And what coulde the Emperour do but chastise suche that deserued any punishement whatsoeuer although they had helde no hereticall errour besides and yet notwithanding euen agaynst these the punishement of death was so little defired that euen S. Augustine did withstande the Shiriffe when he sent out a sharper edict fearing that he should kill any And so broughte to passe that a more milde edicte was set foorth For as then all the Emperours punishment consisted in a forfeit of money in taking away their goods froÌ„ the Donatistes churches giuing theÌ„ to the churches of the true beleuers And if the bishops could not be corrected by any remedie they were banished but of killing there was no mention at al. And therfore against Pelagius there was neuer any motion of crauing the Emperors aide bicause he did not on this sort trouble the traÌ„quilitie of the coÌ„mon weale yea and that is more by the entreatie of the Bishop they which had payed their forfeiture had their money giuen theÌ„ agayne and their bishops reteyned their dignitie still in their Churches if they would change their opinioÌ„s So great was the lenitie of those daies towards heretikes and that such heretikes to There are many kindes of punishing besides the punishment of death Very farre in deede are they from this lenitie which now a dayes for euery word that either is strange to them or not vnderstoode they crie foorthwith to the fyre to the fyre Heere therefore betweene these deuines and me thereis no dissention but this that they considering what a great plague of religion it is that the church should be deuided into such factioÌ„s seeme more enclined to slaughter On the other side I am more slow considering wherto the parable of the Lord wherto the most holy mens interpretations wherto the lenitie and mildnesse of the ancient Bishops and of the Emperours against heretikes calleth vs then also thinking on this howe nowe and then mens affections mingle them selues in this businesse and how often suche remedies fall out otherwise last of all that sometymes the truthe is doubtfull and nowe and then it hapneth that he is in errour himselfe that layeth the heresie to an others charge many times neither partie vnderstaÌ„deth other and they agree in matter whyle they iarre in wordes neither dothe S. Hierome speake rashely in the dialogue agaynst the Luciferians vnder the person of the true beleeuer after this maner no body saythe he can take vpon him Christes victorie no body can iudge of men before the daye of iudgement if the Churche be nowe clensed whye reserue we the clensing to the Lorde there is a waye that to men seemeth righte but the endes of it leade euen to the bottome of hell In this errour of iudgement what certayne sentence can there be c. VVhat Hierome ment by these wordes is cleare to the learned Truely they haue hitherto so moued me that I am of opinion that we oughte not to come to the laste remedie before all meanes be tryed Least perchaunce either through a corrupt iudgement the innocent or at the least he that might be recouered do perish or else euen that which is right be condemned for euer Thus muche and a great deale more writeth Erasmus on this matter But by this first we sée Erasmus iudgement and yet is he not counted a Donatiste Secondly he so describeth the Donatistes that these two witnesses of Iesu Christe which moste paciently tooke their death nor inuaded any others lyfe be fully cleared of this criâ—… Thirdly he so setteth the Donatistes out that beyonde all the former comparisons the Papistes of all other rome néerest them in cruell bloudsucking in prouoking and setting vpon other that prouoks them not in farre more cruell tormentes than of swordes sythes lime and vinegar yea they haue lefte no vnnaturall cruelties nor mischieuous trecheries vndeuised and vnpractised Fourthly he sheweth agaynst this popishe tyrannie euen where they will not suffer the examination of the truthe howe contrarie it is to the fathers and auncient Byshops whome they crake to succéede Fifthly where you M. Stap. falsely cite S. Augustine agaynst vs Erasmus truely â—…iteth him agaynst you shewing what clemencie the Emperours vsed euen to manyfest heretikes and what crueltie you practise agaynst the true beléeuers In times past saith Erasmus the Ecclesiasticall mildnesse did mitigate the seueritie of Princes And now the crueltie of certaine Monkes except it were mitigated by the mildnesse of Princes would burst out into more than the Scithians vnmercifull rage Thus we séethese two that ye â—…ayte at are not alone they shall haue good companie if they be Donatistes for disallowing manslaughter But now what if these twoo reiected it not at all but onely shewed the exact difference betwéene the old lawe or manâ—… politike lawes and the Gospell Will you denie that the Gospell that is to say the glad tidings of reconciliation forgiuenesse and saluation wrought by Iesus Christ is the lawe of grace and full of mercie I thinke M. St. ye will not denie this for shame Then should ye consider that the Gospell in it selfe killeth not but laboureth to saâ—…e it sendeth killing to the lawe the exercise threates and external punishment whereof is not altogither taken away by the Gospell but is forcible to the transgressours Nor the Gospell taketh away ciuill or polytike lawes from Princes nor the sworde to execute them on the euil doers And yet is there a manifest distinction betiâ—…éene the one and the other and so are euen your Sorbonists driuen to yéeld to Erasmus Quamuis Euangelium c. Although the Gospell do not expresly and plainly shew that Heretikes should be burned yet the lawes ciuill which are conformed to the law naturall which the Gospell doth not abrogate do decree that they should be put to death and burned So that neither be such lawes comprehended in the Gospell nor otherwise allowed than indirectly that is to say for the importunitie of the wicked And in this sense their wordes are not amisse But what sense soeuer ye make of their wordes ye can not proue them Donatists And yet if thus much also were graunted you doth this either charge vs that we be Donatists not allowing them therein if they had any such opinion â–ª or doth it cléere you Nay it once againe proueth you more Donatists For in very déede the Denatistes refused not simplie that the Prince should punish heretikes no nor by death neither if he would haue held with them and at their bare instigations haue punished the true beleuers by death they would haue then allowed it set him more on yea haue layed to their owne hands and
gouernment in Church causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir of dutie to belong to ciuill magistrates he concludeth ther vpoÌ„ by these two parts of the request so satisfied that they may and ought to take the same vpon them Which done he promiseth to enter into the other twaine to proue the same by the continuall practise of like gouernment in some one part of Christendome and by the generall Councels To this answereth M St. Hitherto ye haue not brought any one thing to the substaÌ„tial proufe of your purpose worth a good straw neither Scripture nor Doctor nor Emperour This is a short aunswere indéede as if Iacke Strawe had made it and not a student of diuinitie All is not worthe a strawe with you Such was the iudgement of Esops dunghill Cocke when he found the precious stone Haue ye done nothing master Stapleton but scraped strawes though you estéeme better of your owne doings wherevpon as it were an other Chaunticlere ye crâ—…we and crake so often yet set not so little by the doings of other men and thâ—…se that are farre your betters But what are the Bishops proues the lesse worth for this your strawish iudgement Your bolt M. St. is soone shotte but a raylers tongue is they say no slaunder Let others iudge that haue more iudgement what the Bishops proues amount vnto And let them iudge euen by this your Counterblast that ye haue blowne out agaynst these proues to ouerturne them Which had they bene as light as a strawe ye might haue easily done and neuer haue puffed vp such a stormie Counterblast But let them iudge what your Counterblast hath done and whether ye haue blown away so much as one straw bredth from the matter one proufe of al the Bishops proufes But least I should also be like to you I remit the iudgement of the whole to other yea in Gods name to any of your owne side that with any indifferencie will examine both Ye quarell further at the least to blemish the Bishop with suspition of heresie saying Among your foure Emperors by you named ye haue iugled in one that was a starke Heretike but as subtilly as yee thought ye had handled the matter ye haue not so crastily conueyde your galles but that you are espied Ye haue told vs of this often inough master Stapleton if that would helpe you though ye tolde it not so Iuglerlike as now although with as much bitternesse of gall as euer y Iugler or sorcerer SimoÌ„ Magus had With Heretike starke Heretike wretched Heretike c. But ye neuer tell how the Bishop cited him For were he Heretike or were he not as it is a question by Saint Augustines definition of an Heretike yet in that point that the Bishop cited him ye can proue him no Heretike But whatsoeuer he were the B. is clearely discharged to your owne shame and to all your doctors of Louaine where ye learne your good diuinitie And this is al that ye haue to say to the Bishops proues hitherto Now to that he promiseth to enter into the residue there is yet one thing that after all your raylings ye coÌ„mend him for Yet for one thing say you are ye here to be commended that now you woulde seeme to frame vs a certaine fixed state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ and to the which you would seeme to direct your proufes that ye will bring And therein you deale with vs better than hitherto ye haue done seeming to seke by dark generalities as it were corners to lusk lurk in Neither yet here walk ye so plainly and truly as you would seeme but in great darknesse with a sconce of dimme light that the readers should not haue the clere view sight of the right way ye should walk in whoÌ„ with this your darke sconce ye lead far awry For thus you frame vs the state of the questioÌ„ These are but wordes M. Stap. to spend time and fil paper Ye know best your owne practises Ye tell vs before hand the Bishop will do so Tell vs so when ye come to it It séemeth he mindeth it not euen by your owne confession prefixing a state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ to direct his proues vnto This is not the way of one that would luâ—…ke or lurke with darke sconces in corners nor the B hitherto hath gone thus to work it is one of your ordinarie slaunders his proues are euident name one that is not directed to the issue set betwene him M. Feck that fully proueth it not but that sconce of your own hath left no corner vnsought to â—…usk and lurke in and to lead the Reader about the bush as besides this your common place of impertinent matters will for the most part declare The. 27. Diuision THe B. hauing proued his issue by the two forsaid parts the scriptures the Doctors being entred into the other twaine the Councels the practise since the issue requireth the proofe of Any such gouernement as the Q maiestie now taketh vpon hir the B. first expresseth hir Maiesties gouernment theron according to the issue maketh his generall state to leuell his proues vnto the B. words are these The gouernement that the Q. Maiestie most iustly taketh vpon hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errors superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer This same authoritie rule and gouernement was practised in the catholyke Church by the most Christian kings and Emperours approued confirmed commended by the best Councels both generall and Nationall The effect of M. Stapletons aunswere to this is all against the state of the question that the Bishop here setteth downe and is diuided chiefly into thrée pointes In the first he chalengeth the bishop to alter the state of the question in hande and setteth himselfe downe another state to the which he woulde haue the Bishop direct his prooues Secondly he trauayleth to show that the Bishop concealed two clauses of the statute that should chiefly haue expressed the state and what inconuenience may insue thereby Thirdly he alleageth the excuses of the Papists for refusing the othe In his first part being deducted into these two members to quarell at the Bishops state and to set vp his own for the former thus sayth M. Stapleton Here is a state framed of you M. Horne but fane square from the question in hande For the question is not nowe betwene M. Feckenham and you whether the Prince may visit reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of heresies and schismes and offences in Christian religion which perchance in some sense might somwhat be borne withall
tâ—…cet consentire videtur for he that holdeth his peace seemeth to consent Howbeit I crie you mercie the case is altered For there ye defend your client here ye oppugne your aduersarie And belike ye haue some priuiledge from Rome euer to turne the matter so as may best serue your turne But and it were not for this your priuiledge surely I woulde further aske ye howe chaunce so soone ye haue forgotten your late vaunt and euen in this leafe wherin ye crake that ye walke not in generall wordes but restrayne your selfe to particulars now stande quarrelling about the generall words of the statute and mocke the B. for particulars if ye shalâ—… laye forth your priuiledge to doe this when ye thinke ye may get some aduauntage thereby yet I thinke your priuiledge stretcheth not both to wrest the state of the question in hande and of the issue to the statute and to wrest and belâ—…e the statute as ye please and thereof to gather what false conclusion ye lyst For first ye do the Bishop wrong â—…th Maister Feckenham hath set vp his issue to be prooued Anye suche gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes to driue the bishop from thence to the wordes of the statute that expresse it in all ecclesiasticall causes Herein ye offer the bishop wrong For by this issue betwéene them though the Bishop in euery Prince continually alleage not ensamples in euery Ecclesiasticall cause but nowe and then in all nowe and then in some for your Popes daily encroched on Princes and at length got the mâ—…st of all yet hath the Bishop proued and satisfied the vertue of this issue Any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Howbeit ye do him further wrong to chalenge him here for leauing out any poynt of gouernment in any Ecclesiasticall cause that euen the statute giueth hir maiestie that is to say A supreme gouernement in all things and causes Doth not the bishop set downe this M. St hath he not specified euen the same wordes oftentimes already and doth not his particular specifications coÌ„teine as much here also Nâ—… say you he leaueth out the principall cause ecclesiasticall and most necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall Soft M. St. stay here or euer we demaund what this cause should be I demaunde only now why ye say supreme gouernour Ecclesiasticall is this your honestie in handling the statute doth the Quéene take vpon hir to be a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall or doth the statute giue this title to hir maiestie A supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall the statute saith A supreme gouernor in all Ecclesiastical causes â–ª And is there no differeÌ„ce betwene an ecclesiastical gouernor a gouernor in eccles causes but you vse this your false captious speach to make that people beleue the slaÌ„der that ye raise on hir Maiesty as though she toke vpon hir to bean ecclesiasticall person to be a B. and a minister of the worde sacraments and by hir chiefe gouernmeÌ„t ouer bishops chalenged to be a chief or head bishop of Bishops like vnto your Pope And so hauing raised vp this slauÌ„der on the Quenes maiestie the statute ye chalenge the Bishop for omitting a principall ecclesiastical cause But what is that you aske forsooth iudgement say you determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise Here againe M. Stapl. ye speake as captiously for if by this iudgement ye meane an authoritie aboue the doctrine of Gods worde as all your side maintaineth that the word of God receyueth his authoritie of the Churches iudgement â–ª which Church ye call the Priestes and is authenticall bicause they haue ratified it so to be otherwise it were not true nor good then in déede as the Bishop hath set downe no such iudgement determining or approuing of doctrine neyther so coulde he haue done for the Quéenes Maiestie â—…keth no such supreme gouernement vpon hir nor such supreme gouernement is due to any other than to God alone who hath by Iesus Christ his sonne already fully determined in his holy worde what doctrine is good and true â–ª And what doctrine soeuer is besides that is neyther true nor good whosoeuer take vpon him to iudge determine and approue the same be it eyther your Pope or your Church neuer so much yea were it an angell from heauen â—…e must 〈◊〉 helde accursed But if ye meane by iudging determining and approuing of doctrine such authority as only acknowledgeth giueth testimonie admitteth alloweth setteth forth and strengthneth the doctrine of Christes onely worde not aâ—… ruler ouer it but as seruant vnto it and the reiecting or abolishing of all other doctrine against or besides that wordâ—… then hath the bishop not left out this ecclesiasticall cause in the statute though not iudging in that maner that the ecclesiasticall gouernour Bishop or Minister doth in his sermons or debating thereon but for so much as belongeth to a supreme gouernour And so sayth the bishop The gouernment that the Queenes Maiestie most iustly taketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the eccl. state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion buitie and quietnesse of Christes Church visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schisâ—…es abuses offences contempts and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer Marke these words a little better M. Stap. and I trust you shall sée it was you that ouershot your selfe and lefte out good attention béeing caried away in a cocke brayne â—…ume with too hastie a preiudice And that the bishop left out héere no part of such iudgement determination and approuing of doctrine which is true and good which is otherwise as belongeth to suche a supreme gouernour as groundeth himselfe on Gods iudgement â–ª determining and approbation What do ye thinke is true religion no good doctrine with you If it be the bishop hath not omitted it Can he care and prouide for it direct and set it foorth without iudgement without the determining of it to be good and true without the approbation of it On the other side are errours and heresies no false nor naughtie doctrine with you if they be then the bishop named them and thinke ye the visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting can be without a iudgement and determination agaynst them Then sithe he in playne spéeche ascribeth all this to the Prince which fully answereth all this that ye call for if as I sayd ye vnderstande this iudgement determining and approuing a right ye shewe what a very continuall wrangler ye be where no cause at all is giuen But incontinent ye declare what ye meane by this iudgement of doctrine For what say you is more necessarie in the Churche than that the supreme gouernour therof shoulde haue power in all doubtes and controuersies to decide the truthe and
spiritual sacrifices we haue and therefore the other outvvarde of the Iewes are gone as those that were vnperfect and with the outwarde sacrifices is the outward priesthood gone also But still blundring on with your false principles you goe forward to proue that you haue taken the best left the worâ—… in the priesthoode and sacrifices of the Iewes saying For the high B. in the state of the Gospell is not borne after the propagation of the fleshe but is elected according to the giftes of spirituall grace And our sacrifices consist not in shedding of the bloud of beastes but in remeÌ„bring the bloud of the immaculate Lambe and in dayly setting forth after an vnbloudie manner the substance of the Lambe And so that which was spiritual perfecte in the lavv vve haue not lost â–ª but that vvhich was vnperfect and carnal we haue not kept You coine Maximies M. Sanders speake as one thâ—… might kéepe and leaue what he liste standing still on youâ—… former presupposall that to haue one visible Byshop ouerall Gods people is a pointe of perfection and to haue outwarde sacrifices is also a point of perfection But neither of these iâ—… yet proued which shâ—…uld haue firste bene done and then yâ—… might haue entred your comparison whether those or theâ—… were better You preferre your Pope bycause he hath 〈◊〉 high Byshoprike as you cal it not by byrth but by election according to the giftes of spirituall grace but as the election of the Pope verie often hath falne out with so small giftes of spiritual grace that al y grace was either in the gifts of brybiâ—… money of canuased factions or of geuing cufâ—…es and dealing of harde blowes for it so the obtayning the highe Byshoprike of the Iewes that descended by byrth was manyâ—… times farre the better As for sacrifices where you saye yours consist not in shedding the bloude of beastes whaâ—… auayleth it hauing imbrued your mouthes with the bloudâ—… of Christ for if as you pretende you drinke his very bloude â—…owe are you not bloudsuckers and your sacrifice worsse than was the Iewes Besides the cruell sacrifices that you dayly make in shedding the bloude of men and Saintes of God a farre worsse sacrifice than shedding the bloude of beastes For of that for the time God was the appointer but of this the Deuill is the authour that was an homicide from the beginning But you say your sacrifice of Chryste is not bloudie If it be of bloude howe is it not bloudie if it be not bloudie â—…owe is it of bloude It is say you in a remembrance of the â—…mmaculate Lambe Woulde you stande to this Maister Saunders then indéede it were not bloudie for the rememâ—…rance of bloud is not bloud it selfe But straight ways you â—…onfute your selfe and come in with setting forthe the substance of the Lambe Whereas Chryste sayde not his Disâ—…iples shoulde sette forthe his substance but they shoulde â—…et forth his death But the death of Chryste is one thing â—…nd the substance of Christe another thing Neither dothe Christe make the Sacrament of his bodie a sacrifice of his â—…odie muche lesse maketh he two sacrifices of himselfe the â—…ne done once for all the other dayly done the one for himselfe to exhibite the other for them to exhibite the â—…ne bloudie the other vnbloudie These are the sacrifices of â—…our Popes making prophaning derogaâ—…ing from the saâ—…ifice of Iesus Christe and therfore worsse than the Iewes â—…crifices that were the figure of it and for the time were â—…ood Now such as is your sacrifice suche muste needes your â—…crificing priesthoode be You haue not therefore as you â—…ake for your sacrifice and Priesthoode retained the betâ—…r but haue deuised the worsse and suche as are starke â—…aught As for the other part of the minor for the estate of Princes 〈◊〉 â—…aue bene imperfecte and therfore abolished you labour 〈◊〉 proue two wayes The one admitting the Prince 〈◊〉 haue bene greater than the Prieste in procuring ecclesiasticall matters what a great imperfection for diuerâ—… causes it had bene the other by flat denyall that the Princes were the greater in administring those thinges that pertained to ecâ—…l matters These are subtill spéeches M. Saunders and maye be doubtfully vnderstoode As thoughe we ment the Prince were a more principall executer or doer of those thinges Whereas we plainely affirme that in the Ministeriall procuration the Priest was the highest But in respect of ouerseeing that euen the highest Priest shoulde doe his duetie therein we say the Prince was greater than he And that is proued by the first obiection that your self M. Saunders propounde of the Protesâ—…ntes neyther doe you denie the truth of the obiection but shake it of in saying the gouernement now is changed that it was then vnperfect Else why do you accuse it of imperfection if it were then as you wold haue it nowe the Prieste to be greater than the Prince and so in chalenging it of imperfection you grauÌ„t the thing Neyther do we deny that the state of those Princes was not in all things perfect Althoughe your selfe haue graunted the state of a Monarchie to be a perfect state but yet the state thereof was in his kinde more perfecte than was the Priesthoode both bycause it was ouer the Priesthoode as is obiected and you haue graunted and bycause that the Princes estate althoughe it be taken from Iewes yet it remayneth still entier with vs whiche the Priesthoode doth not nor can do But let vs sée your Reasons First esay you bycause Priesthoode was more auncient than the kingly right For the receiuing of Priests was partly receiued from the beginning vnder the lawe naturall yea before the floude when as yet there were no kings partely it had the superioritie certaine ages after Moses according to the lawe giuen by him when as yet among Gods people no king was extant but howe much more auncient a thing is in religion it is worthily counted so much more the worthier This argumente standeth on Antiquitie whiche beyng drawne from the word of God and truely applied maketh a good argumeÌ„t And would to God you would alwayes make gods word the ground of your Antiquitie which would sone decipher manie Popishe errors pretending great Antiquitie to be but late vpstarts But to reason from Antiquitie in things that are antiquate and outgrowne to retaine them still being lawfully displaced and that more is to reason from Antiquitie to worthinesse maye be an anciente but not ouerworthie reason For by this râ—…le an olde caste coate may be better than a new And although you restraine your selfe vnto antiquitie in ReligioÌ„ what helpeth this sith the bloodie sacrifice of a shéepe as pleading Antiquitie from Abel might by this reason become a more worthie worship of God than Baptisme or the Lords Supper Yea circumcision and the Passouer should haue bene better Sacramentes than ours bicause they wore
And is not this the voyce of all Protestants whatsoeuer onely Scripture onely the Gospell onely the worde of God and for the first part what is more common in the mouthes of the Germaine Lutherans of the French Caluinists and now of the Flemish Guets than this complaint that we presse them with the Emperors diets with the Kings proclamations and with the Princes placards to the which they obey as much as the Donatists when they haue power to resist Remitting your rayling Rhetorike Master Stapleton to your common places your argument is very fonde and faultie First if this be a simple and generall proufe of Donatists to say we bring the onely Gospels you will make Christ a Donatist to for he brought the onely Gospels And his Disciples and Apostles Donatistâ—… for they brought the onely Gospels and sayde they knewe nothing but Iesus Christ crucified they deliuered no other thing than that they had receyued and accursed him that should bring any thing besides this onely Gospell Ye will make the fathers Cyprian Chrysostome Ambrose Hierome Augustine c. become Donatists that will vs in all trialles of any point of doctrine to bring the onely Scripture the onely Gospels the onely worde of God Againe for the other part if this were a proufe of a Catholike to bring 〈◊〉 imperatorum sacra the letters of many Emperours and to complaine hereon the token of a Donatist then was Athanasius diuerse other godly Bishops Donatists also the Arrians Catholikes And your selfe with M. Feck alleage the complaints of Athanasius belike to proue him a Donatist This therfore M. St. thus simply set forth maketh but a simple argument Ye should either proue that we do bring the onely Gospell and complaine of your Princes diets Proclamations placards after the maner that the Donatists did or else ye proue nothing but your selfe a malicious slaunderer We bring the onely Gospels to you as Christ his Disciples and the holy fathers brought them to vs and yet bring we not the Gospell so alone that we bring not also the fathers writing thereon we also bring both Princes diets Proclamations and placards so farre forth as they mainteyne set forth and agrée with the doctrine of the onely Gospels Otherwise can ye wyte Athanasius if he complayned when he were pressed wyth them Can ye wyte the poore Protestants in Germanie Fraunce Flaunders if they so much as complaine that ye presse them wrongfully euen as your selfe in plaine wordes confesse thâ—…t ye presse them in déede with the Emperors diets with the kings Proclamations and with the Princes placardes Neuerthelesse if ye pressed them lawfully and as Constantinus pressed the Donatists I warrant ye no Protestant would once complaine thereon But ye presse oppresse them with nothing but mere violence to maintaine your errours besides and against the worde of God. And to this purpose your selues play the right partes of the Donatists for as the Donatists peruerted and wrested the scriptures to shake the authority of princes froÌ„ themselues which otherwise they admitted so farre as pleased them so do the popishe priests peruert and wrest the scriptures to reiect the Emperors and other Christian princes authoritie ouer them and vpbraid vs saying Illâ—… porâ—…ant multoruÌ„ imperatorum sacra They bring many of the Emperors letters that is we presse them with the authoritie of princes when we require that ye giue as much and no more authoritie vnto Princes than the onely worde of God doth warrant them But you will giue them no more nor yet their sacra their diets proclamations or placarts than shall serue your turne And thus your selues are most Donatists in this poynt Your last comparison is of the Donatists murdring of others and of themselues and yet canonizing of suche for Sainctes and Martyrs This comparison ye stretched out with large outroades nothing agaynst the Bishop nor to the matter and in déede nothing but extréeme rayling and scoffing agaynst master Foxes booke to whome I remittâ—… the quarels that you lay vnto him who is able at the full to aunswere them As for me I will aunswere onely to the comparison for murthering and canonizing wherein the Papists excell all other If ye had master Stapleton alleaged the Monke that poysoned himselfe to poyson his prince the Pope that to poyson his welthie Cardinals dronke him selfe of the wrong Bottell had ye tolde that men said of the death of the two late Cardinalles in Englande or howe good a medicine for the heade ache your Popishe Priestes haue made of the Sacrament of the aultare as ye termâ—… it and what Princes they haue poysoned therewith If ye had tolde of your Italian perfumes and Spanishe figges for the pippe ye might well master â—…tapleton haue confirmed your comparisons from the Donatists murders But what néede such priniâ—… tokens in so open a matter Your hate charitie to heape burning coales on your aduersaries heaâ—…s too many haue felt and all the world doth knowe For murther the Donatists be nothing comparable nor yet Barabaâ—… the Iew nor nere a théefe in Newgate to the blâ—…dthirstie Papists Ye say Saint Augustine sayth of the Donatists viueb ant vt latrones morâ—…ebaÌ„tur vt circumcâ—…liones honorabantur vt martyres They liued like robbers they died lyke Circumcelions meaning they fiue themselues they were honoured as martyrs True in déede master Stapleton and ye put me in remembrance of another saying that went in thrée parts to I trowe it was of an honest man of your religion of whom it was sayd 〈◊〉 vt vulpes regnabat vt Leo moriebatur vt canis He entred like a Foxe he reigned like a Lion he died like a dogge And yet ye count him one of Gods holy vicars And I pray ye call to minde another common saying that went also on three partes euen of your Popish canonâ—…zed Saincts that some were worshipped aâ—… Saincts in heauen that liued full wickedly here in earth and are now tormented with Diuels in hell this did men say master Stap. anâ—… they were Papists that sayde so to Ye tâ—…ll vs of the Montanists that worshipped one Alexander for a worshipfull martyr though he suffred for no matter of religion but for mischieuous murther What is this to the Donatists master Stapleton or that which ye tell vs of the Manichees worshipping the day of their master Manes death The worship of dead men good or bad or the kéeping of solemne dayes as in the honour of them is proper to you popish 〈◊〉 not to vs We kepe a memoriall I graunt but of these onely whome we are most infallibly assured that they be the blessed Sainctes of god Howbeit we worship not them nor the day for them nor them by the day wée worshippe onely GOD in spirite and truth as Christ hath taught vs But you that so worshippe deade men will yée worship none for Martyrs but those that dyed for matters of Religion Whie