Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	civil_a	magistrate_n	matter_n	3,433	5	6.0251	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85414	A short ansvver to A. S. alias Adam Stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. Together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which A. Stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. A. Steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page 166. The civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say Presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1644 (1644)	Wing G1201; Thomason E27_6; ESTC R8324	30,557	41

controvesie it may bee said in behalfe of Independents that unlesse differing and erroneous opinions bee tolerated the most orthodox and rectified are equally Subject to bee persecuted On the other side Presbyterians say that the permitting differing opinions in a State is to open a flood-gate to all manner of Heresies and Schysmes What if wee did suppose these to bee the two Great Rocks of offence which in some sense were no otherwise than Scylla and Charibdis one of which you could not avoide without adhering unto the other Does it not remaine then that wee should consider which of them is accompained with the greatest inconveniences The latter presupposes a possibilitie of entrance unto all Heresies the former concludes a certainty of with-holding a great measure of Truth and even a possibility of keeping out the whole Truth Now this truth is like God himself even verie God himselfe invallewable we may not hazard the least attom the smalest proportion thereof for al other possibilities or impossibilities whatsoever What Shall we put our selves into such a condition that if we be in an errour it shall be impossible for us to get out of it againe unlesse the whole Civil State the men of war the world doe see it as clearely as our selves That if as yet wee have but some degrees of truth and knowledge it shall be impossible for us to attain to greater That though we were in possession of the true Religion wee should bee liable to have it taken from us by everie sharper Civil sword than our owne This is your Doctrin page 13. where you say the Civil Mgistrate though Christian has power to admit Christian Religion or when admitted to exile it afterwards but God keepe such Presbyterian Principles from farther taking root in England But if King and Parliament may not force a new religion or Sect suppose Presbyterian upon the Kingdome much lesse can the Synod which neither has nor yet pretends as is alleadged to use the materiall sword And if for matters of religion all power originally is in Christ as you sometimes acknowledge page 179. How can King Parliament or Synod wrest it from him Nay what thinke you Is it not secondarily in the people as well as Civil power which you affirme in the same page And so doubtlesse is spiritual power unlesse you will make God to have provided mankind better of a safegard or libertie to defend their bodies than their soules If then the spirituall power be so inherently in the people next under Christ as that they cannot so well renounce and part from it in many respects by what they may of Civil how can it be thought by any one that the King Parliament or Synod though never so much importun'd by a thousand such AS ses should goe about to settle a N●w Presbyterian Scotch Government with an intention to force a conformity of the whole Kingdome three quarters whereof cannot as yet be thought to submit unto it willingly or for conscience sake Page 180. and elsewhere you advise the Independents to quit their fat Benefices but Presbyterian know how to quit the leane Benefices without your counsel And where doe you find the Independents in such fat Benefices What if you cannot find one of them in a fat Benefice Will you not say good cause why because the Presbyterians would quickly heave them out and get themselves ●n If they find any fatter than an other and bee so liquorish If they regard neither flock nor the Great shepheard of the flock Christ Jesus but with Esa●h or Judas prefer 30. pence or a fat Benefice before them both let them at least carry it more cau●elo●sly and not ●●● skipping so from one fat Benefice or Lecture unto a fatter that all the world cry shame of them I need not name them they are knowne to everie bodie but themselves But prithee A. S tell mee do'st thou not intend this as a pious plot and Master-peece of thine to accuse the Independents of fat Benefices that they may bee provok'd to vindicate themselves by discovering who they were amongst the Presbyterian Rabbies that solicited so actively and dextrously obtaining such an Ordnance for Tithes as all the subtle invention● of Antichristian Bishops could never get the like Who they were that had more than a finger in helping sundrie Ministers out of their Livings partly for not paying the twentyeth part and other taxes and so soone as Presbyterians had filld all Benefices and Lectures to move that Ministers might then bee totally freed from all manner of ●essment● and is it not fitting it should bee so think you That they should set and keepe the Kingdome on ● fire in ● desparate bloody Civil warre and yet bee totally exempted from contributing towards quenching towards obtaining of a blessed peace I know these Heathenish Jewish Popish notions of Tythes Offerings and 〈…〉 ons were long since abominated and abolished amongst our Scottish Brethren And A. S. does well in not flattering the English Presbyterians therein lest Independents should be farther scandaliz'd at him who it is well knowne are not guilty of such Si●oni● they 〈…〉 bargaine of the Ministerie of the Gospel as if it were an unholy thing or themselves like so many Coblers or Shoe-makers to prostitute their labours to them that proffer most they compel noe man to buy of them whether they will or no much lesse at what price they themselves will what God requires to be given for nothing Esa. 55. 1. 2 They force no man to pay for that he never had as Presbyterians doe such as cannot with a good conscience communicate with them in their ordinances as if a Tayl●r or Hatter should wrench your money from you though you lik'd not would not have his wares his service who will may see the Bloody Tenet and Iohn Baptist concerning tythes more largely Pag. 181. You say the power of the Ministerie or Ecclesiastical power is able and sufficient to beat down all fin spiritually But pray tell me can fin be sin politically and not be fin spiritually Now if Ecclesiasticall power can beat down sin spiritually as you acknowledge Will it not follow that fin so beaten down spiritually ceases to bee sin at all either spiritually or politically and consequently no neede of Civil power to punish it But to be briefe as the Title promised for me Our Saviour bids us do as we would be done to that is Love our Neighbours as our selves on which commandment hangs the Law and Prophets Math. 7. 12. and 22. 39. 40. and Paul tels us that Love is the fulfilling of the whole Law Rom. 13 10. Nay our Saviour would not have us dare to aske forgivenesse of our heavenly Father otherwise than as we forgive our Brethren Math. 6. 12. 14. 15. Now amongst all sorts of transgressours there is no one offendeth so highly so undoubtedly against this law of loving his neighbour as himselfe or doing as hee would bee done to as he that

A SHORT ANSWER To A. S. ALIAS ADAM STEWART'S Second part of his overgrown Duply to the two Brethren Together with Certaine difficult questions easily answered All which A. Stewart is desired to consider of without replying unlesse it be to purpose A. Steuart in his second part of his Duply to the two Brethren page 166. The Civill Magistrate cannot bee Orthodox and tollerate a new Sect hee meanes Independencie and may as well say Presbytery unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys or some other waye so to doe Proverb 12. 13. The wicked is snared by the trasgression of his lips but the iust shall come out of trouble Printed in the Yeare 1644. THREE OF A STEVART'S CONCLVSIONS with their PARALELLS which are added for better explanation of them their contradicting of themselves and their rebellious Doctrine CONCLUSION 1. Pag. 105. The Supreame Ecclesiasticall Judicature itselfe may fear that if they judge any thing amisse their judgements will not bee approved and put in execution in perticular Churches and in all probability they are like to bee crossed iust as much as Independents aske for by this ensuing Paralell PARALELL Particular Churches or Congregations may examin the iudgements of the supreme Ecclesiastical Iudicature and if they find them to bee amisse they may refuse to put them in execution they may crosse them CONCLVSION 2. Pag. 30. The Civil Magistrate is subject in a spirituall way unto the Church Hee must learne Gods will by the Ministers of the Church who are Gods Ambassadours sent to him Hee must bee subject unto Ecclesiasticall Censures CONCLVSION 3. Pag. 166. Whatsoever the Ecclesiasticall Senate or Presbiterie is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the Church That the Civil Magistrate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the State Neither is the Civil Magistrate lesse bound to put it out of the State than the Presbyterie is to put it out of the Church Exquisite Poperie Pestilent Doctrine as appeares yet more clearely by this following Paralell PARALELL If the Presbytery shall think good to excommunicate King or Parliament the Civil Magistrate the people in whom the Soveraign power resid●s originally pag. 167. is absolved from all obedience and bound to put them out of the Civil State A TAST OF A. STEVART'S EXTRAVAGANCIES and contradictions in the second part of his Duply to the two Brethren Page 13. The Civill Magistrate even as Christian has power not to admit the true Religion to reject it yea when it is receaved or approved and confirmed by his secular and Civill authority to reject it and exile it If the Church bee corrupt and Church Officers negligent in their charge and will not reforme it as the Magistrate thinks good hee may command yea compell them to do it When the Church is reformed hee may command them when they are negligent to bee diligent in their charge If hee conceave they oppres any man in their Ecclesiastical judgements and censures against the lawes of the Kingdome hee may desire them yea command them to reverse their judgements and in case they reforme them not againe command them yea compel them by his Civill power to give him satisfaction according to the lawes of the Kingdome if hee conceave they derogate not from the lawes of God which neither Popish nor Turkish Magistrates will acknowledge though their lawes bee never so contrary to the word of God Page 166. The Civill Magistrate if hee follow Gods word cannot grant a tolleration of Independent Churches without consent of the Church if hee judge it is not corrupted as if the Church being corrupted the Magistrate may bee corrupt too and tolerate what hee will Page 47. How be it The Church compel not to subscribe yet the Civill Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell to subscribe or to begon Pag. 179. What power hath the King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdome new religions or a tolleration of all Sects the Parliament assume no such power unto it selfe A short Answer to A. S. alias Adam Stewarts second part of his overgrown Duply to the two Brethren SIr Had you concealed your selfe under the two first letters of your name all the A. S'es in Towne and Country would never have beene able to cleare themselves for what you make but words of however I may not adde a tittle in commendation of you for Preamble to this Pamphlet as you tell us and is no more then requisite to justifie your own Epistle is ordinary with writers in dedication of their bookes least I bee put to a more shamefull recantation then A. S. was and that for nothing but what charitie as himselfe confesses induced him to acknowledge in behalfe of the Apologists Give mee leave then to observe first that pag. 21. 23. you say Idolatry is a sin against the second Commandment Juris naturalis perpetui insinuating that the power and duty of punishing both Idolatrie and Heresie is such also If so then it obliges all Nations of the world and consequently supposes them capable to judge of all manner of Idolatrie and Heresie which we see to bee notoriously false and that besides the confounding Ecclesiasticall with Civil power whilest one State punishes this or that for Heresie it cannot possibly bee otherwise since they are not onely different but diametrically opposite in profession but that another must canonize it for a sacred truth secondly if States and Powers must punish Hereticks they are bound to punish those for such onely who in their owne judgements are such and if you will engage States in punishing of Hereticks and they punish onely such as they find themselves obliged to punish in their own consciences and understandings How can you according to your doctrine blame them for punishing Gods dearest children instead of Hereticks since they tooke them to bee Hereticks and thought they had done God and you good service to punish them If wee may not suffer Hereticks to live amongst us then is the Parliament to blame for suffering German French Spanish and Portugal Papists or Dutch Brownists and Anabaptists to live here amonst us though as Marchants onely for a time since their marchandizing gives them greater advantage of working people to their opinions by the respective civil conveniences and benefits which they bring both to the whole Nation in generall and to some in particular nay the very Ambassadours of what States or Potentates soever of different religions ought not to bee permitted to reside Ledgers amongst us under any pretence if this doctrine bee Evangelicall So likewise may not wee under pretext of marchandize live in Turkish Popish Lutheran or other Countreys differing from us in religion travel into such parts for fashion sake as is usuall nor keepe Ambassadours there nor bee by forrain States permitted to remain amongst them if we would or on any termes joine with such in wedlock Man may by no meanes dispence herewith if the command

subjects are freed from their obedience to them and the people which having al power in themselves originally become the supremest Magistrate of al are bound to cut them off from the Civill State whether they be Kings or Parliaments But let us beware of such Infernal tenets according unto which there would be found no safety neither for Prince nor Parliament but each of them and everie body else all alike be forced to be of whatsoever religion shall by most voyces in a Consistorie or Synod be thought to be the true one which is too great a hazard or else be deemed to doe presumptuously and so loose their lives But ch. 3. you say if the Church be corrupt and the Church Officers negligent in their charge and will not reforme it the Civill Magistrate may command yea compell them to do it or if they will not he may extraordinarily do it himselfe Good now who shall here reach the Civil Magistrate whether the Church be corruptor no At what time the Church Officers be negligent in their charge not willing to reforme and when they oppresse any man with Ecclesiasticall censures If you say the Civil Magistrate himselfe may see it by bringing them to the rule of Gods word do you not contradict your selfe in page 30. and elsewhere saying the Civil Magistrate must learn Gods will by the Ministers who are Gods Ambassadours sent unto him is it possible to reconcile the Civil Magistrate unto the spirituall office-bearers in such a case as this nay is it ever possible for AS to make his atonement with this present Assembly for frustrating so many yeares endeavours as they are like to make of it in saying the Civil Magistrate hath power not to admit the true Church to reject it yea when it is received or approved and confirmed by his secular and Civil authority to reject it and exile it Ibid which yet is true enough but do you think the Synod would have taken soe great paines and our Scotch brethren have sacrificed so much of their own blood if even at best it should have been so hazardous whether ever their Presbyterian discipline should be received or no or when received rest in ●uch dayly danger to bee turned out againe with shame Is it not an ea●●y matter for the Civil Magistrate to say these Presbyterian Churches are growne corrupt their way of government was never Apostolical and good they Tyrannize over their brethren insted of feeding them aiming at no Reformation soe much as to get themselves into the fattest Benifices and so banish them into America or some worse place Woe would it have beene for any Independent to have beene knowne to publish such Theologie such Heresie Page 47. You say How be it the Church compell men not by externall vi●l●●ce to subscribe contrary to their judgements yet the Civil Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell you to subscribe or to be gon c. The Church you say compels not externally but the Civil Magistrate may But whence hath the Civil Magistrate this power in Church affaires or why may not the Church use the Civil externall armes in Church matters rather then the Civil Magistrate should e●terpose with his owne weapons in Church affaires Is it not all one think wee in the sight of God for Church-men Church Officers themselves to hang such a one whom they deeme a Heretick as to set a crosse a gallowes a marke upon him out of a tacit compact with the Civil Magistrate to hang him whensoever or wheresoever He should meet with him If a combination of any people should thus compasse the death of any man would they not all equally bee found guiltie shall a politick reservation of Popish Canon or Civil law to keepe the Clergie from the peoples odium thus delud all Christians to the end of the world may Church-men connive approve teach and applaud the Civil Magistrate in punishing whosoever they suppose to be Hereticks by imprisonment or death and not as innocently as Christianly bee executioners themselves Perhaps they will say they have no authority nor call to become executioners to banish imprison or put to death and yet they have as good a call as to approve it in the Civil Magistrate but this is not the poynt wee stand upon What if a Towne or Principality were giuen unto a company of Presbyterian Clergie-men I cannot think they will refuse it would they in such a case imprison banish or cause Hereticks to die in this their Principality If they say as the Pope in the same case as Pilate when he crucifide Iesus and Bishop B●nner whilst he made so many Protestane Martyrs they may not wash their hands in the blood of Hereticks I reply neither in the blood of Civil delinquents by the selfe same principle of theirs If they referre such judicature and executing of Spirituall or Civil Offenders unto Laymen to be their deputies within this Principality of theirs I answere that this is but a Popish eua●ion and such blood being shed by their authority or approbation must be accounted for by them as if they themselves had sat upon the Bench passed sentence and beene executioners If Hereticks were punishable by death as murderers and Traitors I know no cause but that Clergie-men if neede were might as actually assist at execution of the one as of the other But if any man should expect my opinion of what these Presbyterian Clergie-men may doe upon the proffer of such a Principality I confesse the refusall thereof might seem a verie great degree of Evangelicall perfection and the excessive care and travel which is required to govern it though by a substitute are altogether inconsistent with the ministerie of the Gospel but to interpret the passing sentence and execution of death by such Deputies or their Officers to be so intirely the peculiar acts of such Deputies only as that the said Presbyterian Clergie-men from whom the jurisdiction is derived had not even as great a share therein as if they had beene present upon the bench is a meere Popish invention and delusion Our Saviour and his Apostles did neither tell the Magistrates that then were that it concerned them so much more to become Christians that they might compel their Subjects to be so too nor yet gave the Christians instructions or left upon record any such order or warrant that when ever the Magistrate did become Christian they might constraine the people to Christianity c. But in the same Pag. 74. you graunt these Spiritual Delinquents must be first sufficiently convinced alleadging that after a sufficient conviction it is morally and should be supposed that they know the truth or should know it or if they know it not that nothing can have bl●dered them but their owne pertinaciousnes which cannot excuse but rather aggravates their ●in But what I pray or how much do you call sufficiently convinced How can any one do otherwise than yeeld unto whatsoever you have convinced him of