Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	civil_a	magistrate_n	matter_n	3,433	5	6.0251	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78005	A vindication of Mr Burroughes, against Mr Edwards his foule aspersions, in his spreading Gangræna, and his angry Antiapologia. Concluding with a briefe declaration what the Independents would have. / By Jer: Burroughes.	Burroughs, Jeremiah, 1599-1646.	1646 (1646)	Wing B6126; Thomason E345_14; ESTC R200993	27,250	36

where they live because of the Ceremonies and subjection to Bishops were they all Schismaticks too Doe not men ordinarily in London and elsewhere for the outward advantage of trade or otherwise leave one Church and goe to another and may not a man for any advantage of enjoyment of Ordinances that he cannot have in the Church he formerly lived in not in that purity but that it will be sinne in him to continue in it remove to another Church and what if his dwelling be not removed to the other side of the street does that make it Schisme Many of the converted Jewes were a great while in Church-Communion before they saw their liberty to converse with the Gentiles though converted also it was their fault that they would not joyne with the Gentiles being Christians the partition wall being broken downe yet they were never accounted Schismatiques for this fault of theirs whereas now if a man lives in a parish and does not joyn in Church fellowship in that parish he is branded for a Schismatique What hurt the abuse of words and among others this of Schisme hath done in the Church we all know When men who give good testimony of their godlinesse and peaceablenesse after all meanes used in faithfulnesse to know the mind of Christ they cannot without sin to them though it be through weaknesse enjoy all the ordinances of Christ and partake in all the duties of Worship as members of that Congregation where their dwelling is they therefore in all humility and meeknesse desire they may not live without the ordinances of Christ all their dayes but for the enjoyment of them may joyne in another Congregation yet so as not condemning those Churches they joyne not with as false but still preserve all Christian communion with the Saints as members of the same body of Christ of the Church Catholique and joyn also with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as they are able If this be called Schisme it is more then yet I have learned or then I beleeve M. Edwards can teach me Page 98. he throwes me his glove challenging me into the field to try his valour with me in this point Ans When I have a mind to play at Brawle and Wrangle I will take up his glove He hath given an experiment of his wrangling faculty in the maintenance of the charge he gives me of being guilty of the 150. Error mentioned in the first part of his Gangraena namely Whatsoever errors or miscarriages in Religion the Church should beare withall in men continuing them still in communion with them these the Magistrate should beare with continuing them in the Kingdome or Common-wealth in the enjoyment of the liberty of subjects this with M. Edwards is a huge error Whereas he passes almost all his other errors without any animadversion he must needs have one here he cannot passe so foule an error as this without confuting it presently see what his Confutation is Those sayes he who out of conscience are not satisfyed in taking up Armes against Armies raised by a Prince the Church will not deale with for this but the Magistrate may To this M. John Goodwin answered that I before had said that in matters of civil justice between man and man there the plea of conscience would not free a man from punish-went if he offends but for matters of Religion there what ever charge the Magistrate hath over men it is not more then the charge the Church hath in its kind therefore where the Church should beare with men the Magistrate should Now the man comes in with his refutation and instances in a businesse of taking up Armes as if this did not come under the Head spoken of before namely the matters of civil justice not a matter of Religion as distinct from civil justice and his Reply is onely this as if an erroneous conscience did not make things the Magistrate accounts matters of State matters of Religion and the Magistrate also reckon many things to be matters of State which many consciences account high matters in Religion Ans What a bable is this who would spend his time in replying to it If M. Edwards his valour in dispute may be judged by this we need never feare encountring with him I say that in matters of Religion as distinct from matters of civil justice there the Magistrates power extends not beyond the Churches and he comes and tells us that an erroneous conscience may account matters of State matters of Religion what then if he accounts them to be matters of Religion does this alter the nature of the thing what ever he accounts yet if he does offend against civill justice he is to be punished and whatsoever the Magistrate accounts yet if the thing in its owne nature be not against civill justice but onely against some rule of Religion surely he is not to punish in his way further then the Church may in her way who speaks of what one man accounts or what another man accounts the things must be judged according to what they are in their owne nature if M. Edwards his threatning Peece doe no better feats then his Animadversion and Reply to M. John Goodwin hath done that which he judges an Error remaines still a Truth he must blot it out of his Catalogue of Errors his conscience must tell him there is one Error lesse then his reckoning but I would be loth to be writing or waiting till Master Edwards his conscience be convinced or if it be till he confesses it to be There is onely one passage more that I shall need to take notice of in his last Book and something he hath of it in his former namely my conformity in the Bishops times This conformity he speaks of was ten yeeres since and though I did conforme to some of the old Ceremonies in which I acknowledge my sinne I doe not cast those things off as inconvenient or discountenanced by the State onely but as sinfull against Christ yet I think there can hardly be found any Man in that Diocesse where I was who was so eyed as I was that did conforme lesse then I did if he conformed at all As for the new conformity God kept me from it and my sinne in the old makes me to be of the more forbearing spirit towards those who now differ from me I see now what I did not and I blesse God I saw it before the times changed and others even some who scorne at new light must acknowledge they see now what a while since they saw not why then should they or I fly upon our Brethren because they see not what we think we see Oh how unbeseeming is it for such who conformed to old and new Ceremonies now to be harsh and bitter in the least degree against their Brethren who differ from them when they doe differ so much from what they were themselves but a while since I some of them

make us members of the Church These things are so palpably plaine to any that will understand that it is tedious to spend time about them He sayes further in the same page that I preaching before the Lord Major and Aldermen preached for a Toleration of all Sects and Opinions so they were not against Fundamentals in Doctrine and Fundamentals in Civil Government Ans Then I did not preach for an universall an unlimited toleration of all Religions of all things as both my selfe and others are very sinfully reported to doe What was the way of getting hands to a late Petition in London but this when some went from house to house Who are you for Are you for Presbytery or Independencie Many answering They knew not what Independencie was The Hand-gatherers replyed Independents are such as would have no Government as would have all Religions all Blasphemiss and Heresies tolerated as would live under no Laws Oh say they No we are not for them we will set our hands against them and thus hands might easily multiply Yea this is the weapon by which Ministers in their Pulpits where no body can answer them fight against Independency with But is this faire Doe not your consciences condemne you in this thing For my part as I never was so I now am not for a toleration of all things nay I should be loth to live in England if ever it should be here I doe and shall pray and endeavour against it But what I said before the Lord Major and the Aldermen had I been a Presbyterian I should have said it and were I a Presbyterian I should say it againe The Presbyteriall way had once need of such a doctrine and may have need of it againe I remember not the words that then I spoke but this I remember what I said was from the 14. to the Rom. and I am sure I have since said and published in that Treatise of Heart-Divisions three times as much about that Argument and that Scripture and yet I beleeve many hundreds of Presbyterians think what I have published there to be true doctrine onely M. Edwards has so much of the Prelacy and violence in him that he cannot digest it As for my Lectures that are printed upon Hesea that he mentions page 220. I am not willing to spend time in answering he mentions no particular words but refers you to the Lectures and pages They are to be seene I refer my selfe to all moderate Presbyterians let them judge whether there be any thing there that may not stand with Presbyterian Principles Never any have appeared against those Lectures but M. Edwards and lately M. John Vicars I reverence and teach others to reverence old age but it must know there are many infirmities attending it it is fitter for devotion then that it should interest it selfe in matters of contention If M. Vicars had told me some experiences of the work of God upon his soule or of the good providences of God towards his people and himselfe in the course of his life I should have diligently observed them and I hope might have got good by them But oh how unbecomming old age is that spirit of contention that appeares in his Bookes if he thinks those places he has cited will serve his turne surely his skill in Presbyterie is not great my pen was running in a hard expression but I will not provoke the old man yet I must be plaine with him How uncomely is it for an old Professor of Piety and Religion to be found jeering and scorning at Piety and Religion who would have thought that ever M. Vicars should have lived to that day Thus he does in the Frontispice of his Booke The names of the five pious Apologists and the names of the seven Religious Remonstrants Whereas the chiefe scope of his Book is to cast dirt upon these Apologists and Remonstrants Certainly the spirit of the man is much altered from what he heretofore seemed to be Can it become the gravity and wisdome of old age to charge and that publiquely his Brethren of unworthy double dealing of unfaithfulnesse upon no other ground then the relation of one man and that relation but upon one witnesse and yet this very witnesse gives it under his hand that what these men that he charges thus hath said is true and why must he charge Master Greenhill too Surely he did not thinke what he did for all that M. Greenhill said was he wondred to see such a thing in Master Edwards his Booke as a Relation of a meeting concluded of about Nicols where I and he M. Edwards sayes were what doublenesse or unfaithfulnesse in this for not onely M. Edwards his witnesse sayes he never told him so and such a thing never was but M. Edwards now confesses it Is there then weight enough for such a charge of M. Vicars not onely upon me but upon M. Greenhil The Lord I hope will cause M. Vicars to see cause to be humbled for this In the close of all me thinkes I see M. Edwards in M. Bellamies shop fretting and vaporing I will answer him I that I will I will reply I that I will like one Pise Jerome speaks of who though he knew not what to say yet he knew not how to hold his peace M. Edwards may be bold enough in Answering for I am perswaded he beleeves I will hardly ever be brought to trouble my self about him He is so foule who can meddle with him without dirtying his fingers I am resolved rather to lye under many prejudices and censures and commit my name and cause to God then to trouble my selfe further with him Though I will not fully conclude never to doe any thing further about him in publique yet this I engage my selfe unto that if any thing in what he has said or shall say shall stick in the hearts of any conscientious who desire satisfaction if they will but make it knowne to any that have or ever had any acquaintance with me I will if it be desired give them satisfaction in it but I confesse I am loth to promise this to strangers I have been so traduced by strangers who have come to me for satisfaction in some cases of conscience For instance in that about a late Petition of some of the Citizens which M. Edwards mentions page 110. of the first part of his Gangraena where he sayes some came to me the day after I preached to be satisfied about it who he sayes put me hard to it I confesse I spent neere foure houres with one company who came to me about it yet Master Edwards sayes I said little It may be some of them reported so How easie is it for any to come to be resolved in a case of conscience and when they are gone to say He said little Yet to those four who then came to me there was so much said that two of them went away satisfied and the other two fell off contradicting one