Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	civil_a	magistrate_n	matter_n	3,433	5	6.0251	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A49256	Short and plaine animadversions on some passages in Mr. Dels sermon first preached before the Honourable House of Commons on Novemb. 25. 1646. But since printed without their order Setting forth the many dangerous and destructive assertions therein both to church and state, the covenant, and the reformation so much desired. Together, with an answer to an unlicensed pamphlet annext to the sermon, entituled, A reply to Master Loves contradictions. By Christopher Love minister of Anne Aldersgate, London. The second edition. Imprimatur Ja. Cranford. Decemb. 17. 1646.	Love, Christopher, 1618-1651.	1647 (1647)	Wing L3175; ESTC R220429	46,782	54

Moses But what hath Master Dell to alleadge against the compelling of men to the duties of the outward worship of God I am sure there is much to be said for it this Iehosophat Hezekiah Asa and Iosiah did els Magistrates are to behold men as indifferent spectator● not caring what Religion the people be of in speaking of the Magistrates coactive power I would be cautiously understood 1. Tha● the coactive power of a Magistrate is not Gods way of planting the Gospell in a heathen nation which never heard of the Gospell before Procopius in Arc● histor. saith that Iustinian was blamed because hee compelled the Samaritans to embrace the Christian faith All the Jewes a nation professing the true God were compelled to the duties of the outward worship of God but the heathens about them were not so 2. You must know that there is a great deale of difference twixt an affirmative compulsion to say I le make you bee of my minde and a negative compulsion which saith you shall not spread propagate this Heresie and Blasphemy thus the Magistrate may compell 3. The Magistrate may compell to the meanes and externall acts of worship but cannot compell to internall acts of faith love and such like as having no power over the conscience I shall have occasion to treate of the Magistrates power more largely upon some other passages of Master Dels Sermon But Master Dell goes on and saies that during the time of Moses his law there was no true Reformation pag. 3.33 and that the people were without any true Reformation before God till Christ who was God in the flesh come page 4.8 By this Mr. Dell discovers himselfe a downe-right Socinian hee saith there was no true reformation the Socinians sa● so too in effect that they who lived before Christs time had onely temporall and earthly blessings in their knowledge and affections holding resolutely that Christ and eternall things though they were promised in the Old Testament yet they were not enjoyed by any till under the New whereupon they say that Grace and Salvation was not till Christ came as if there had beene no eternall life nor any thing of the spirit till Christ came in the flesh and doth not Mr. Dell say so much in effect when he saith til this time of Reformation the faithfull were without true Reformation before God what a heavy charge is this that all the Patriarks before the law and all the elect of God under the law were without this true Reformation before God what is this but to deny that they are not justified their sins not pardoned their soules not saved for this is a certain truth that none are justified pardoned or saved but such as have this Go●spell Reformation which he describes to a bee mortifying and destroying of sinne if there was no such a Reformation as this how could any before Christs coming in the flesh be sav●d Master Dell having described what this Gospell Reformation is to be a mortifying and destroying of sin c. he now layes down an exclusive conclusion in these words This is true Gospell Reformation and besides this I know no other but as he preacht it was thus this is true Gospell Reformation and besides this the New Testament knowes no other He sayes it in expresse termes also Pag. 12. l. 22. the taking away of transgression for us and from us is the onely Reformation of the New Testament If it bee read as t is Printed that Master Del● knowes no other Gospell Reformation besides heart Reformation this bewrayes his ignorance if it be read as t was preacht that the New Testament knowes no other Reformation besides this herein he shewes his errour to bee for the Erastian way I must needs say our dissenting brethren who are of the independent judgement have little reason to thank Master Dell for this assertion it strikes at the foundation of the Independent Reformation and Government as well as at the Presbyteriall Besides if no Reformation besides an heart Reformation surely it will follow that both Kingdomes were greatly mistaken in the first Article of our Covenant wherein wee stand bound to endeavour the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland in doctrine worship discipline and government according to the word of God and the example of the best Reformed Churches Surely both Kingdomes did not take this upon them as if they could reforme the hearts of men this they know is Christ work not theirs but another kinde of Reformation in Ecclesiasticall discipline which hath been corrupted by the Prelates So that if Mr. Dels doctrine passe for currant that there is no other Reformation under the Gospell but a heart Reformation the first Article of the Covenant must stand either for a nullity or falsity And therefore you see how grosly they are mistaken who take Gospell Reformation onely to consist in the making so t was preacht to bee the making of certaine lawes and constitutions by the sacred power or clergy for externall conformity in outward duties of outward worship and government and to have these confirmed by civill sanction and inforced upon men by secular power Master Dell himselfe and others of his minde not any body else that I know of are mistaken for none of a Presbyterian judgement holds that the making of certaine lawes for conformity in dutyes of outward worship backed by the civill sanction of the Christian Magistrate to be heart-Reformation but they say onely this that a visible Church is then in a good readinesse for reformation when there is an externall conformity in duties of outward worship and government when confirmed by civill sanction Indeed Master Dell saies much but d●oves nothing about this And to rectifie Master Dels mistake I shall endeavour to prove that t is so farre from being a capitall crime that it ●s a laudable and warrantable practice in the civill Magistrate to con●●rme by civill sanction and enjoyne by externall penalties externall conformity in outward duties of outward worship and government which I shall evince by Scripture and reason 1. By Scripture did not Darius make a law for externall conformity in matters of Religion Dan. 6.26 27. I make a decree that in every dominion of my Kingdome men tremble and feare before the God of Daniell Nehemiah made a law and that under penalty to bring men in conformity to the observing and Sanctifying of the Sabbath Nehem. 13.21 22. yea Josiah made all that were present in Judah and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant and made all that were present in Israell to serve even to serve the Lord their God 2 Chron. 34.32 33. And King As● made a law commanding Iudah to seeke the Lord God of their fathers and to do the law and Commandements 2 Chron. 14.4 many instances more of the like nature might be brought The reasons which evince the warrantablenesse of Magistrates practice to enjoyne externall conformity

Confession of Faith but you had three passages in your Sermon against it 6. I am for a Form of Church government but you not so your Sermon wil testifie against you 7. I am for a Directory for VVorship and Catechizing you not so 8. I acknowledge my selfe bound in my place and calling to indevour the extirpation of Schism Heresie as wel as Popery or Prelacy but you do not so These things considered with what face can you say that I am more against the Covenant then you I hope the ingenuous Reader will be a judge of Righteous thoughts about this matter betwixt us both 4. You accuse me and many others through my weake sides as if we would Reform without and against the VVord though the Lord knows the purpose of our hearts that wee desire to make the VVord the rule to square all our services by but because you onely say it but not prove it 't is not worth a words speaking more 5. You most falsly accuse me and others of the Presbyterian judgment that we will not suffer Secular power in the Magistrates hands but will needs have it in our own we desire none of the Magistrates power in our hands which I have sufficiently spoken to in my Animadversions on your Sermon I must needs say you shew not plain and Christian dealing that when you cannot overthrow what Presbyterians say or practice by convincing arguments you would endevour to doe it by slanderous reports this is not fair Mr. Love If this doctrine be true that Gospel Reformation is only spirituall then I wonder how Paul was so out who said When I come I will set all things in order surely this was a Church-order Reply Page 35. But pray what outward or secular power had Paul who suffered not onely much from the world but most from the false Apostles to set the Church in order Did Paul thinke you use any worldly power to set the Church in order or only the power of the Word and Spirit But these men think if the Church he set in order by the Word and Spirit only which were sufficient in Pauls time it 's likely to be out of Order for them Ans. Having spoken to this Reply before I may spare my pains now yet m●st I let you know that you do me wrong in three particulars 1. In laying down a part of my words which you thought might best serve your purpose and leave out the other part of my words on which the weight of my argument lay in urging that text 1 Cor. 11.34 The rest I le set in order when I come I said this order must be about matters of Ecclesiasticall Discipline and not ordering about heart Reformation for Paul could not order any thing about this who should have this Reformation who should not who should have grace who not who should have small measures of grace who great so Pauls words must have reference to externall order in matters Ecclesiasticall as Calvin Piscator and Paraeus expounds it 4. You doe mee wrong in laying downe my words to some other thing then I intended as if I urged that Text to prove the power of the Civill Magistrate in matters of Religion which I did not other Scriptures testifie that sufficiently I need not wrest this but onely to prove that the new Testament warrants another kind of Reformation besides heart-Reformation consisting in Ecclesiastical Constitutions for externall order which this Text affirms 3. In affirming that I with others think if the Church b●e set in order by the VVord and Spirit it is like to be out of order for us I acknowledg the Church is then best ordered for us when ordered by the VVord seeing that order allows not such confused disorders as the want of Church Discipline would bring in Love To cry down all kind of government under heart-government and all Reformation as carnall because you have the civill Magistrates hand to it is against that place in 1 Tim 2 2. pray for Kings and all in authority that we may lead a peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty Reply Well argued now indeed Babes and Sucklings you shall come forth and answer this Master in Israel the sense of this place is evidently this that Christians should pray for Kings and Governours that God would so incline their hearts that whilst wee live in godlinesse under them they would suffer us to live in peace and not make us fare the worse in the world for our interest in the Kingdome of God and what one drop can Mr. Love squeeze out of this Scripture to coole the tip of his tongue for the meaning is not that the Magistrate should inforce godlinesse but protect us in godlinesse An. To this I have 4 Things to say 1. 'T is true you have my sense in the words you laydown for mine but not my words I said indeed To cry down all Government and Reformation as carnall because it hath the Protection or civill sanction of the Magistrate doth crosse that place 1 Tim. 2.2 and so I say still and in stead of your calling forth your Babes and sucklings to answer this you your selfe dare not come forth and deny it 2. You had need call for Babes and Sucklings to answer this some body else had need doe it for indeed you doe not doe it your self nay you grant as much as I affirme which I shall declare presently 3. I cannot but take notice what a charitable allusion you have in comparing me to Dives that I should squeeze a drop to coole the tip of my tongue excellent good language for you to have in your mouth what a damned man in Hell spake if it bee not a Parable where the Law of Love did not beare sway You that have borrowed this one expression from Dives have borrowed many other expressions from some one else not farre from him 4. You grant what I affirme from 1 Tim. 2.2 You say the Magistrate should not inforce godlinesse but protect godlinesse So say I too if hee must protect us how can this bee but by giving his Civill Sanction to allow us the publike exercise of that Religion and Government Christ hath set up within his Dominion ●hus instead of denying you confirm what I said Love To justle out the Magistrates power is to justle out the first Article of the Covenant and they that justle out that wil justle out you shortly Reply Good Sir ascribe not your owne work to our hands the justling out of the Magistrate have you not made it a chiefe part of your businesse now for a long while together and are you not still so diligent●y acting it every day that now you thinke your worke is in some forwardnesse and are pretty well able to deale with him and now because you would not bee mistrusted your selves you pu●likely slander us with it wee see clearely through all your sl●nder disguises Answ. To return you an answer to this I have three things

to lay down viz. 1. Here you leave out my words and vary from the sense that I intended them indeed I said that to justle out the Magistrates power as if hee had nothing to doe with matters of Reformation was to justle out them from having any thing to do with the first Article of the Covenant no more then any common man in the Kingdom 2. You ungroundedly say as if I had made it with others the chiefe part of our businesse for a long while together to justle out the Magistrate the Lord judge betweene you and us concerning this thing Magistrates never flourisht more nor were they an● where more secured then where the Presbyteriall government was establisht and never was Magistracy more sleighted and opposed then where Anabaptists and Heretiques prevailed 3. You say that we slander you that wee might not bee mistrusted our selves I could wish it were a slander not a truth as for any mistrust that we would avoid we fear none the simplicity of our hearts which we have in Christ Jesus bears us up against all mistrusts though we be slanderously reported Love Ezra was of another mind Ezra 7.26 Whosoever will not do the Law of thy God and the Law of the King let judgement be executed speedily upon him whether it be unto death or unto banishment or to confiscation of goods or to imprisonment Reply Well Sir will you stand to this place and shall this end the controversie Pray marke then this was part of the decree of Artaxerxes a King of the Nations touching the Iews for the rebuilding of the material Temple that they should have liberty to do it and not be molested in their doing of it but should have what assistance the State could afford the decree was this Ezra 7.13.21 I make a decree c. Answ. Sir instead of making a reply to that text Ezra 7.26 which I quoted you passe that over with silence and spend but one line about it spend above fifty lines at least in clearing Ezra 7.13.21 which I quoted not whether this be a pertinent Reply let the Reader judge And whereas you vauntingly boast and triumph as if you had got the day daring me to stand to this which I am not ashamed nor afraid to do maintaining still that this Scripture doth warrant that the civill Magistrate hath power to punish with death banishment or otherwise as the evill deserves for transgrefling the Lawes of God as well as the Kings and to this purpose Mr. Burroughs with many others urgeth this text as well as I and Beza on the place saith that these heathen Princes thought it equall that a capitall punishment should be inflicted on the transgressors of Gods Law and saith he the spirit of God would have these decrees of heathen Princes to be exstant to shame Christian Princes if they should not do so now I now come to view over what you lay down in page 38. to be the force of the place Ezra 7.26 1. You say that the force of the place is that the Magistrate may make a decree for all that are minded of their own free will to build the spirituall Temple of Iesus Christ and to gather up into a Communion of Saints To which I have two things to urge 1. Here you speake for the civill Sanction of the Magistrate in matters of Religion that he make a decree but elsewhere you speake against this as in Serm. p. 5. lin. 28. where you expresse your self that the duties of outward worship and government should not be confirmed by civill Sanction and in page 24. lin. 34. and ult. that Christ called not for outward aid of the Magistrate why then doe you here call in for his aide to make a decree to give you liberty for your selves when you deny such a thing to us 2. The extent of this decree which you say this place Ezra 7.26 doth in force that who are minded of their free will to gather into Communion of Saints should doe it what is this but to say that this Text doth warrant this that the Magistrate should give an universall Toleration to any who will call themselves Saints to assemble together and publikely professe their way should the Magistrate give this scope that who will may gather into Communion Churches in time would be like that rude multitude who yet is called a Church as the Greeke word signifies in Ephesus who raised an uproare against Paul could you make this place to inforce this you would put a weapon into the hands of Papisticall Prelaticall Anabaptisticall Anarchicall and Malignant men which they never yet used to plead for gathering together in Communion as well as you 2. You say this is the force of the place that the Magistrate ought to permit this to be d●ne according to the Law of God in your hands or rather the Law of the spirit of life in your hearts and not to inforce upon you any Clergy-Constitutions page 28 Answ. 1. This place warrants the Magistrate to permit the free and publique exercise of the truth not of errour The Magistrate that is enjoyned by God to protect the true Religion must not tolerate a false 2. This place doth rather plead for a Clergy-constitution as you scoffingly call it hen any wayes deny it for this decree of Artaxerxes was granted upon the request of Ezra who was a Priest compare Ezr. 7.6 with Ez● 10.10 which place will warrant what you deny in your Sermon viz. that Ministers may petition the civill Magistrate to have Idolaters Heretiques or other grosse transgressors of Gods Law to be punisht with death banishment or imprisonment as the cause shall require This decree then of banishment death c. being granted upon the request of Ezra a Priest in that sense it may bee somewhat like a Clergy-constitution I shall say more to your third 3. In the third place you say that the force of this text is that the Magistrate may deterre me and the rest of the Kingdome that are of the like minde from resisting and hindering you in gathering into Communion page 38. and a little before you say he may do it upon pain of death and banishment Answ. I am glad you speak out now I know what you mean and would you stand to any thing I should know where to finde you 1. You grant that the Magistrate may deterre mee and others of the like minde that we hinder not your gathering together in a Communion of Saints and that upon pain of death and banishment by this I see your spirit that you would have the Magistrate deterre and that by death and banishment the Presbyterians who doe oppose your gathering into Communion Oh what jugling Hypocrisie is this one while to cry downe the Magistrates power when Presbyterians desire his aid against Sectaries and Heretiques anon to cry it up that he should deterre upon pain of death or banishment those of a Presbyterian judgement Presbyterians

though peradventure cryed down with Confidence no such thing as the Reformation of the Church See Reply pag. 33. Reply Pag. 34. To which you reply I taught indeed that the Kingdom of Christ is a spiritual Kingdom and the Reformation of it is answerable but little thought that any man would have been so blind or worse as to have affirmed the preaching of this spiritual and glorious Reformation was to preach against all Reformation Is the Reformation of Jesus Christ which hee works by his Word and Spirit in all the faithfull no Reformation at all How durst you affirm this Mr. Love Answ. Mr Dell to clear himselfe from what I charged him with viz. That he c●yed down all Ecclesiasticall Reformation saith That he little thought any man would be so blind or worse to affirm that the preaching of this spiritual Reformation was to preach against all Reformation To which I must needs confess to preach of spirituall Reformation as it should be preacht is not to preach against all other Reformation but to preach of spirituall Reformation as Mr. Dell preacht it viz. exclusively is to preach against all other Reformation Yet Mr. Dell to make men beleeve as if he were not against Ecclesiasticall Reformation saith That he thinks him mad or worse that affirms spirituall Reformation excludes all other Reformation truly I am of his mind Now that I might turn the edge of this Assertion against Mr Dell I shall reduce it into this Syllogism Major That man that affirms spirituall Reformation excludes al other Reformation is either blind or worse Minor But Mr. Dell affirms spirituall Reformation excludes all other Reformation Concl. Therefore mr. Dell is either blind or worse The Major Proposition is evident Master Del himself confesseth it in the page fore quoted p. 34. The Minor is as evident viz. that Mr Dell affirms spirituall Reformation and excludes all other Reformation for he saith expresly That besides this spirituall Reformation he knows no other Serm. page 5. line 2. and that this spirituall Reformation is the onely Reformation of the New Testament Serm. page 12. l. 22. what then follows but that M. Dell is either blind or worse And whereas you lay to my charge in your Reply That I should affirm the Reformation of Iesus Christ by his Word and Spirit in the faithful is no Reformation Truly Sir I never durst hold so it s farre from my heart I acknowledg heart-reformation to be the most glorious Reformation yet not the only Reformation I had thought you would have answered what I spake and not unjustly fasten upon me what I spake not but I perceive your tongue is your owne Love As if all were encompassed within the narrow heart of man Reply Yet I said plainly enough when the heart is Reformed all is Reformed and Gospel Reformation though it begins in the inward man ends in the outward did you Sir accuse me rightly then or no Ans. 'T is true you said so in pag. 6. l. 22. and you said the quite contrary in pag. 5. l. 2. Besides heart Reformation I know no other and pag. 12. l. 22. Besides heart Reformation the new Testament knows no other Now if what you say in one place you contradict in another who can help it And whereas you demand whether I accused you rightly in laying to your charge that you held onely for heart Reformation denying all other I answer I did and I stand to the accusation stil for did not you say Besides heart Reformation there is no other Reformation that you know of and that this is the onely Reformation of the new Testament Let the Reader judge whether I did not then accuse you rightly Love If this be so rase out the first Article of the Covenant Reply page 37. I had rather the whole Covenant were rased out then the least truth contained in the Word of God though I like the Covenant well enough according to the true intention of it And again if the thing be truly considered it will appeare that you are more against the Covenant then I for the Covenant engageth us to reform according to the Word of God but you it seems would reform without yea against the Word with outward and secular power which you wil not suffer in t●e Magistrates hands neither but will needs have it in your owne Answ. I have laid down all your words in this Reply that others may discern and you might bee convinced of the impertinency and falshood thereof and that in five particulars 1. In this Reply you take not off what I urged viz. If there be onely heart Reformation then must you rase out the first Article of the Covenant which binds to a Reformation in Worship Discipline and Government which is a Reformation distinct from heart Reformation but against this you speake not a word in this Reply then I 'le conclude that your silence gives consent 2. You say you like the Covenant wel enough according to the true intention of it truly Sir you must pardon me I cannot beleeve you and that upon these grounds 1. The Covenant according to the true intention of it tyes to the Preservation of the Reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government but you like not that you had rather pull down then preserve the Discipline of the Church of Scotland it being Presbyteriall yea you call that the carnal Church that cals for the aide of the civil Magistrate for his civil sanction which Scotland doth and will you make mee beleeve you would preserve that Church or Government 2. The Covenant according to the true intention of it tyes us to indeavour to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdoms to uniformity in Religion Confession of Faith Forme of Church-Government Directory for Worship but you like not these you have in Print and Pulpit declared your dislike against most or all of these How then dare you say you like the Covenant wel enough according to the true intention of it 3. You do untruly say that I am more against the Covenant then you In this I hope I shall easily convince you by an induction of particular passages in the Covenant 1. I acknowledge the Church of Scotland a Reformed Church so doe not you 2. I would in my place and calling endevour to preserve the Reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government so will not you 3. I doe acknowledge the Covenant holds ●orth that Reformation of Church Government or Discipline mentioned in the first Article to be a distinct reformation from that mentioned in the end of the Covenant but so do not you for you hold that besides heart Reformation there is no other Yea 4. I according to the Covenant endevour after uniformitie in matters of Religion but you do not so unlesse your mind bee changed from what it was when you printed a Book against uniformity 5. I am for a